Who likes to suffer?!

[0:21] Matt: I don't know. That felt, like, kind of oddly nervous.

[0:27] Michael: Yeah. Me like

[0:28] Matt: a silly little butterfly in my stomach.

[0:32] Michael: It's our first episode. Yeah. 252nd episode. All right,

[0:37] Matt: well, we don't know where we're going.

[0:39] Michael: We're going to

[0:40] Matt: the shore.

[0:41] Michael: To the shores. Yeah.

[0:47] Matt: How's it going?

[0:50] Michael: Good. We were just talking about that. This, today is, like, when someone asked me how it's going, I go into, like. Like, my brain. Brain goes into, like, a tree. Like, it goes like. Okay, how do you answer that question? Like, how's it going? Like, family life. Myself, my. With Alison. Right. It's like business.

[1:13] Matt: Yeah. Things are always going in a myriad different ways, aren't they?

[1:20] Michael: I would have to say, generally speaking, I do answer, everything is going good. And I. I don't ever feel like I'm lying when I'm saying that, because that's. Sometimes I check myself. I'm like, is it. I was like, well, it kind of depends what we're talking about. But if I'm gonna do, like, a general overall, like, I was like,

[1:41] Matt: I feel like my answer depends on the person who's asking me.

[1:44] Michael: Ooh, okay.

[1:45] Matt: Like, I'll give you a very different answer than I'll give, you know, like, a colleague at work.

[1:49] Michael: That's true. Well, I think that's there. There's also a shorthand that you and I have, I think, because I feel like we both know that we generally have a optimistic look on life, and so when it comes down to it, it's like, all right. No, I'm thankful to be here and to be breathing, to, you know, whatever simple, simplest denominator we can get to. Like,

[2:14] Matt: yeah, that's a good point. I mean, things are generally going pretty well. How I feel about the way things are going is also a completely different question. I might feel terrible about the way things are going, even though they're pretty good.

[2:27] Michael: Yeah. Which

[2:28] Matt: is kind of strange. It's like we're always at some kind of war with ourselves and with reality.

[2:35] Michael: Well, you can kind of. I feel like you can kind of put people in two different categories, and this is a huge generalization. But I think there's the it's good category, and everything sucks. And what I mean by everything sucks, I don't mean like, oh, this week sucks, or today sucks, or this month. It's just like, there's just a general attitude of this sucks or nothing ever. Nothing ever happens. The way I want it to or whatever. Fill in the blank on that.

[3:10] Matt: Yeah.

[3:12] Michael: And usually those people are real drag and sort of. Yeah. You know, and then there's also the. Maybe the two positive people that are always like, everything's great. I love it. Oh, my gosh. Like, dude, okay, not everything is great. That great. It can't be that great.

[3:32] Matt: Yeah.

[3:33] Michael: You know, so it's like, where do you. I feel like both those sides are a denial of something.

[3:40] Matt: Yeah. It's just like the more you kind of peer into this very simple social introduction, the question of how's it going? I become less sure of what an honest answer would even be. Maybe it's because there isn't an unhonest answer that you could just acquire and deliver because it is so dependent on the relationship at hand and on the way that we humans tend to mitigate, or I think that's the right word, mitigate our own reality against our hopes and fears that we've cast into the future and against our own pasts. The way things have been bit.

[4:33] Michael: I mean, my head usually goes to kind of almost like a. I'm going to use this word. I. I don't know if it really does it well, but first principles, You know, no matter what the external circumstances are, that you kind of have, like, some basic axioms that you fall back on, like, like, oh, I can breathe. Or, you know, like, my back's been hurting for the last week, and I'm like, but, man, it's felt so much better than it had for so long. And so, like. Like, I had. Like, I tend towards that sort of, like, it's not as bad as it could be. Maybe that's not a good. Good way to look at things, but.

[5:20] Matt: Well, I think it's something of a mature way to look at things. I mean.

[5:24] Michael: Thanks, Matt.

[5:26] Matt: Well, and it says something to, like, the way that you acquired that kind of perspective. It was by going through something that was pretty objectively bad, you know, in drugs and losing your mind. And so you always have that sort of level set. It's like, it could be worse.

[5:45] Michael: It could be worse. That's true.

[5:47] Matt: It kind of doesn't matter how bad things get, you know, according to sort of, like, societal norms. It's like, I know how much worse it could get. So there's a lot to be thankful for, because when you don't know, you really don't know, you know?

[5:58] Michael: Yeah. Really so weird.

[6:05] Matt: Yeah. I mean, and I've certainly gone through some version of that in my life where you're in the middle of something and maybe you don't even realize it till you're starting to come out of it, but you're like, holy shit. I didn't know that it could get that bad. I didn't know about things. Concepts like suicidal tendencies. I had never encountered that close up before. It was always just something you think about theoretically or abstractly. But to get to a point in life where it's like, that's right there. I could reach out and touch that. That's how close it is. That's scary.

[6:46] Michael: I wonder if you can gain perspective without having that. That experience. And maybe it's. Maybe not with suicide, but with. Because mine was too. I had that in there with, with what I went through. But a near death experience or. It's like, it's like when you realize how much can actually be taken from you. Everything.

[7:10] Matt: Yeah, right.

[7:12] Michael: It's. And you know, and you would actually have nothing. And then the little bits and pieces that you start to acquire again and you're like, oh, this is what it feels like to be at peace. I like this. And then it leaves you and you're like, oh, I want to go back to wherever that was. That was really nice.

[7:35] Matt: Yeah. Anxiety is another one that I, for my. The first three decades of my adult life, I could only think about theoretically. I had no idea what that was. Couldn't understand it when people tried to talk to me about it because I had no experience with it, never gotten close to it. And then I got close to it and I was like, oh, I see. And I've actually had some experiences where I've had friends experience that for the first time and I've actually been able to help them because I've gone through it. But whereas you can't really help somebody with something that you don't understand. I mean, you can be helpful, you can be friendly and supportive and all of that, but to actually know what they're going through.

[8:20] Michael: Yeah,

[8:21] Matt: yeah. And to answer your question, I don't think you can gain that kind of perspective into those sorts of things in life until you experience them. I mean, you could be obviously really well educated about it. And you know, maybe like a therapist gets about as close to the perspective without having to go through it. But in a sense, they do go through it over time with their,

[8:46] Michael: with them. Yeah. With

[8:47] Matt: their clients and are obviously formally educated on those things, you know, but you don't have to have experienced schizophrenia in order to like, try to help, be a therapist and help somebody with that.

[9:00] Michael: Totally.

[9:02] Matt: There's a. There's a segue lurking around in here. I was hoping to kind of find it naturally, but I'm just going to force it.

[9:09] Michael: I think it's right on. Right on target.

[9:11] Matt: Yeah. Which is something you said. You were thinking about it, and it's just kind of one sentence stuck out to me. You said that sometimes people like to stay in their own suffering. Maybe just talk about that for a minute, like where you came by that thought or idea and where you see it in. In life.

[9:32] Michael: Well, maybe we'll learn about what I think about it right now, because I don't know what I think about it.

[9:37] Matt: Yeah,

[9:38] Michael: no, I just posed that question to you because, you know, I kind of hit a couple different podcasts and that kind of touched on some of this idea of people wanting to. Like, they just. That's all they do is they talk about how hard it is and it actually amplifies the problem. I think there's a Joe Rogan, he had somebody on. I saw some clips from that, talked about. This is like the more you talk about it sometimes the more you exasperate it. And that kind of baffled me a little bit because I. I find there's a tension in me where, like, I need to. To talk about what's going on inside me, and I'm in a difficult place. But then I also see that I sometimes get into a place where I'm talking about it, but I'm not really doing anything about it. It's different from processing and whatever other psychological words you want to use. But it's like you find yourself more of like, okay, it's easier, more comfortable to be in this space than it is for me to actually solve the problem. Like, if I solve the problem, then I'm just going have a new problem. And I'm just a lot more comfortable with this problem right now, so I don't have to go and tackle other ones. You know, it's like it becomes familiar. And so that just kind of like, you know, sometimes people take on other people's suffering for. In that same way, you know, like, oh, it's a disservice for so and so to do this to this people or whatever it might be. And. And it's almost like a. They take that on to themselves and almost can't. They almost can't even accept that that problem is kind of resolving itself. Like, I would say, like, racism is kind of one of those things. It's like, like everyone, we all can agree that racism still exists. But it's kind of been resolving itself over the last 30, 40, 50 years, you know.

[11:40] Matt: Yeah.

[11:41] Michael: And. But we keep putting this light on it, saying, look, look how bad it is. It's. It hasn't. It's. It's getting worse, and it's just not. It's like, well, actually, what does the world look like when we get past this? And it looks a lot different than what we. And it means also, like, maybe you're out of a job because that was your job, is promoting that one thing.

[12:06] Matt: Yeah. I mean, obviously, the. The kind of political first jumped into my mind, but I'll just say I found that question really fascinating in its sort of relatability and its sort of absurdity. It's like, what are you talking about? I want to stay in my own suffering. I'm not an idiot. Why would I want that? But then you really think about it. You kind of examine your heart, and like, I think I might be doing that a little bit right now. And there's all kinds of reasons for it that seem to pop out to me. And one might be the oppositional nature of relevance, which is that take the Trump derangement syndrome kind of thing or just the left versus right kind of thing, and think about the absurdity of the left calling the right Nazis and fascists. It's like they're creating a bunch of suffering, whipping themselves up emotionally, whipping everybody up emotionally. And obviously, political violence is breaking out. And what is being done to lessen that? Nothing. It's actually being done on purpose because there is a relevance in opposition. Like you said, like, you know, if you're a pundit and there's nothing saucy to talk about, you know, your ratings go down. If you're a politician and you don't have anything to scream about on the grounds of morality, then what's. What relevance are you. You know, and so even though comparing anybody in the United States in 2025 to Nazis or fascist is just sort of, on its face, absurd, everyone goes around doing it. So that's one example. And another one, in a more personal sense is it's very common for people to be very unhappy in a job that they don't like, but they won't get a new job. And the reasons for that are a little bit more obvious. Like, well, you have to start all over and earn credibility from zero at a new company full of people you don't know. You have to start all kinds of new relationships. You have to change up your routine by going to a different part of the city or a different office, or maybe this one's work from home and that one's somewhere else. And maybe you have to move to a different city. And, you know, there's all kinds of reasons why you would stay in your own suffering, because you're comparing the relative nature of your suffering to the hypothetical nature of alternative sufferings. And then I think there's sort of a third kind, third example of this, which. The book Notes From Underground by Dostoevsky came into my head. Have you read that one?

[15:03] Michael: I don't believe so.

[15:05] Matt: I won't be able to give a very good synopsis of it, but there's a sort of. The main character, I think he starts, like. The opening paragraph is like, I am diseased. He's talking about how sickly he's become, and yet he won't remove him. I mean, the book is called Notes From Underground. He keeps himself underground in his social space because there's a sort of a delicious kind of beauty to developing an intellectual complaint to your circumstances. And you. It's like you imagine I've got some problem in my life, and one of the ways that I process is I journal. I start journaling, and night after night after night, I'm journaling, and I'm getting even better and better at describing how terrible things are. And it's almost more. More artistic, and it becomes almost poetic, and my ability to express the pain and anguish and fear of my circumstance, and you can fall in love with that and not want to let it go or let it resolve, because then you lose your sort of. It's like the. My precious. This is the golem version of liking to stay in my own suffering.

[16:31] Michael: Yeah,

[16:33] Matt: you become so enamored, in Gollum's case, with the ring that you can kind of become so enamored with your own intellectual processing of the things that are not good in your life that literally everything about you shrivels away. And yet you won't let it go, even if there isn't evidence to support it anymore.

[16:56] Michael: Yeah, definitely, as you're describing, definitely saw, like, a prison cell. And it's like the. The key, someone comes on, unlocks it, and you're like, I feel like I know this so well. I don't know what's out there.

[17:11] Matt: Yeah, it's like the Morgan Freeman Freeman character in Shawshank Redemption. He's worried about being on the outside again.

[17:17] Michael: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. This kind of takes me quite a few different directions. I'm not sure kind of where to Go with it because,

[17:40] Matt: well, I think one thing we could maybe unpack a little bit is the hypothetical nature of trade off sufferings. Like you said a little bit earlier, it's like, if I can resolve this current suffering, I know that just one new one will pop up in its place. So why leave the familiar for the fresh suffering? And I think it's that hypothetical nature of the fresh suffering. We don't know that one yet. We don't know what it's going to be like. And I want to add here that I really do believe that suffering is in a sense the basis of reality. So. But I don't think that that's a futile point. I don't think that that is a point that should be lamented necessarily. I think that the, the solution to that is to, well, to move. To move into the next thing to say, I will, you know, in a sense, with the current suffering, I will bear it. I will take up my cross and bear it. And also when I can see a path to this suffering's redemption, I will walk that path. And there may be new crosses along that path that I have to pick up and bear there as well. But I think it is that process of. Being willing and courageous enough to let go of what you have to let go of the sufferings that you have as you're allowed to and move into the new is the process by which life as a whole is redeemed. And it's the process by which, you know, you move forward in life and you don't live underground, you live out in the sun.

[19:41] Michael: Yeah, it's also like a call to adventure too, because I think one, one store story kind of was thinking of was like Paul in the New Testament. Like he had this world all figured out and he was persecuting Christians and he was like, you know, he called it says himself, he's like a Pharisee of Pharisees. Like he knew all the rules, like above reproach. And then something just knocked him off his horse. And you know, there was an encounter with Jesus and it was sort of like, oh, everything I thought I knew, I don't. And it's like you kind of have a decision in those types of moments of like, okay, do I just resort back to what I know and am familiar with? And there's, even

[20:27] Matt: though I know now know it's insufficient.

[20:29] Michael: It's insufficient. Or do I push into this new place? And so you see him kind of like take time away from everything. There's different accounts on how long that Was. But it wasn't like two days or a week. It was like many months, if not years, of kind of learning and kind of becoming a new person. I think that it gets harder, especially as you get older, to do that, to kind of as new information presents itself. Like, what if you actually learned that Trump isn't as bad as you think he is? Like, that'd be really hard, especially if you've been saying things about him. Right? Like, oh, he's a racist. Like, okay, why? And like, oh, he hasn't really said anything racist. It's like, whatever. You know, there's so many different examples of. Of that. Or, you know.

[21:15] Matt: Well, yeah, and I've seen examples of that with Trump, specifically of that in my life where I've had conversations with people that I'm close to that I love about my changing views on Trump. And I see them put so much opposition up, like, a shocking amount of opposition to actually thinking about him or to considering that something that they have believed about him is. Doesn't have any evidence. And I've come to the conclusion that it's. There are. I mean, Trump is one of many such things, but there are. We build our life around people as well as ideas and morals, which are worked out in that process. And I think it became at some point very clear to me in a couple of specific examples in my life and experience, like, oh, I get it now. I understand what you would lose if you considered the position that I'm presenting you with. If you considered it, you might lose your wife, your kids, your job like this. These really are at stake.

[22:25] Michael: Yeah.

[22:26] Matt: And, yeah, I'm not going to lose my wife and kids over breaching the social contract. You know, that's insane. Plus, it's, like, really fun to hate on Trump.

[22:38] Michael: Totally.

[22:38] Matt: So why would I do that? The consequences of that are just catastrophic. And I finally saw it, and I got it, and I was like, yeah, okay, I understand. It makes me. It makes me sad that that's the state of the discourse in America right now, but I think I finally accepted that, understood it. There's a huge structure that can come down, and how many things are tied to that structure. You know, it could be the same with, you know, religion if you. You begin. If you. You come from, you know, an atheist social group and you begin considering religion, how much of your social group do you lose and how much of your life is. Is your social group?

[23:19] Michael: Yeah,

[23:19] Matt: I remember I was just talking to a therapist once, and he made the comment that he has seen couples get Divorced after decades because one of them quit smoking.

[23:34] Michael: Oh yeah.

[23:36] Matt: And he was like, you just don't know how much of your life revolves around little things like this. He's like, it wasn't. Cause that one smoked and one didn't and she was mad or he was mad or whatever it was. It's that, it's like that's what they did together. They would sit on the porch. That's where their relationship existed. And as soon as they were no longer both sitting on the porch, the relationship started dying. I think Jordan Peterson does a good job of explaining that with alcoholism. Like, it's really hard to walk away from alcoholism because it's not just the alcohol. It's all of the places and people and activities that revolve around that. So you basically have to give up not just drinking. You have to give up pretty much your whole life in a sense. And so we underestimate the depth to which seemingly kind of trivial things undergird the very structure of our life and our sense of ourselves.

[24:42] Michael: Yeah, I definitely have experienced that whenever like I stopped doing drugs, it's like I couldn't hang around those guys anymore.

[24:49] Matt: Right.

[24:50] Michael: And. And just did not have anything in common with them. But if I would have kept hanging around with them, there's a high chance that I would have got back to it, you know, and gone back into it. And you know, I did not want that. And this sounds more definitive now than at the time, but it was more of a gradual process of yeah, I really can't be around you guys. I think whenever I first stopped and then I was being around them, I was like, ah, what's one, what's one hit. Right? What's one? Whatever. You know, it's like. And, and it took me back to that place. I was like, I can't, I can't be in this place anymore. And just slowly over time, you know, went from maybe a lunch ever here and there to like never seeing them again because also didn't fit into their lifestyle.

[25:44] Matt: Yeah. I mean, maybe in

[25:47] Michael: which is also scary as far as like even cult type activity, you know. You know, you start interacting with a group of people and they start. You start not being able to associate with people because they see things differently or you know, they, they end up in a. Challenging your own beliefs and looks at things and you're encouraged not to participate with those types of people. So it can actually can be both good and bad as far as like tractor beam you in or trying to get out of the tractor beam.

[26:26] Matt: I Wonder if there's a sense in which it's a sort of brutal kind of mercy that we don't perceive both all of the things we're going to have to give up as the result of a small decision, and also all the things that we're going to have to take on as a result of a seemingly small decision. Because if we really understood all of that, would we just be frozen into inaction all the time? Just in freeze mode?

[26:55] Michael: I've definitely thought about with our business, if I sold Medici, like, who am I?

[27:00] Matt: Yeah.

[27:01] Michael: Like, how many relationships do I have because of Medici? And then I have to kind of question myself as, like, does that make me not make good decisions? And it's. Is it. Is this more of, like my. My blanket that I can't let go to move into the next. You know, it's like, I don't think that's what it is right now, but it's like, it. It has crossed my mind as far as, like,

[27:26] Matt: I think that's a big one. Like, selling. That wouldn't be of just a financial transaction, and it wouldn't just be change of ownership of coffee shops.

[27:36] Michael: Yeah,

[27:37] Matt: that would. That would pull at the fibers of your being and identity in ways that would be really difficult to foresee. Yeah,

[27:48] Michael: I

[27:48] Matt: mean, that would be something, if you ever made that choice. Something of like, okay, great adventure. Here we go. I don't know what's going to happen next, you know?

[27:57] Michael: Yeah. I mean, there's a. There was a guy early on, before we started. He's like, just kind of gave me the advice of, you know, you are not your business. Your business is an expression of who you are. It doesn't mean if you lose your business that it doesn't hurt as bad, but it's just like, you have to be careful with, like, your identity being tied up. But again, it's the same thing with kids. It's like kind of your kids are an expression of who you are. They're not you. You know, it's like, you can't put your own identity on them. That's not fair to them. And I think that there's something also with that, with a business. It's like. So I think it's just part of it, just making sure that I have a healthy relationship with the business. And I can see in some areas, I probably don't, because it's like, oh, man. Like, who am I? Like, will people like me if I'm not, like, if I

[28:49] Matt: can't get

[28:49] Michael: Medici guy, you know, it's like. It's like, oh, you're just some guy in the sauna.

[28:57] Matt: You have. Your guru status might be slightly brought down a little bit.

[29:03] Michael: Totally. Yeah. But it is funny because, I mean, it does. Like,

[29:10] Matt: owner of Medici Cold Plunge Sonic Guy is not. Guru. Is not nearly as cool as unemployed guru Colin Sonic Guy.

[29:23] Michael: Well, you do think about it. I mean, like, you know, like, I've seen you throughout the years. You have so much impact on the companies that you've worked for because of the insights and the things that you've done and, you know, in order to do something else. Like, I mean, even with you writing your book and stuff like that, your poetry book. And it's like, that's, that's. That's not in your wheelhouse. Like, you don't take it to the people that you're working with and say, hey, look at this. They're like, that's not how we reference you.

[29:54] Matt: Right.

[29:55] Michael: And so, you know, when you. When you start building something new, it's hard because it's like, you don't really. You don't really have a. And I want to say, I'm gonna use this word, but I don't mean it. You don't really have an identity in it. It's like, oh, that's cute. Oh, man, you wrote some poetry. That's cute. Can you put in a book? You know, it's like, it's not. But there's something about it. Like, but you as a pro, you know, project manager, it's like, it's, it's. It has so much substance to it. Right? History,

[30:24] Matt: evidence, reputation. Yeah. I had a. Somebody, one of my uncles found out about what I'm trying to do with this poetry block. And he, he was like, oh, well, I know a guy who's published a poetry book. And he's like, let me set you up with him. He can give you some tips. And in the interim before I talked to this guy on the phone, I looked him up and he published a poetry book in like 1970. So complete. I was like, it was a really nice thought, but completely. Probably whatever he has to say is irrelevant now. And he said as much. When I talked to him on the phone, he was really nice, but he also made this same point that he was like, I don't think anybody's ever gonna publish you. They don't know who you are unless you have some pre existing large following from something else that they feel like can be marketed to. It's like the problem of getting anything published from the first work from any authors, you don't bring any cachet to it. And it's the same in my industry for people trying to start out. I just happen to have been in this industry for 25 years. Haven't been in the publishing industry for 25 years.

[31:34] Michael: Yeah, I guess. But that kind of comes back to our point. It's really hard to transition to something else because you have so much experience, clout, understanding of the ins and outs of how this works. And it's the same thing with, like, you know, you've been in this sort of suffering that's familiar to you.

[31:57] Matt: Oh, yeah. Another such a great example of that is, you know, so common. It is so common for people to stay in abusive relationships and the suffering is obvious and criminal and potentially deadly. And yet people stay.

[32:19] Michael: Yeah, it's always. I mean, it really has made sense. That does make sense to me because it is. It's like, what if I start over? Well, what does that mean? I'm going to be alone. There could be a period of time where you're alone.

[32:36] Matt: Yeah, well, there's also sort of like a variation of that. Like falling in love with your own sort of intellectual ability to process your own pain when there's another person involved. There's also a sort of a falling in love with that person that's coincident with the abuse. And I think that that's a pathological and kind of fucked up idea of love. But, you know, things like, like breakup and makeup sex exist because there is some kind of link between struggle, I think, and pain and anger that also has a tie into attachment and love. And it's a strange kind of thing that they, you know, it's like, what's the. Where captors fall in love with their. Or.

[33:37] Michael: Oh, Stockholm syndrome.

[33:39] Matt: Stockholm syndrome. That's another version of it.

[33:43] Michael: Well, but you see, the positive aspect of that same thing is like, I love Band of Brothers. I remember when I first watched it, I was moved. I probably watched that so many times. But you see these men who lived specifically through the battle of the Bulge, but it's the whole experience. But I feel like the battle of the Bulge, like, really, like it was like the most horrific and hardest time together. And you go and listen to the. I don't know if it's on the extended editor's cut or director's cut, but you hear them talk about it and they talk about the people they lost and their friends that are still alive. And there's this attachment that is beyond words. It's like we went through this together, and usually you hear that a lot of times through war type of situations, like how it does unite people together in a way that maybe there's some unhealthy parts in there too, but there's something that can be really solidifying

[34:45] Matt: even the effect that 911 had on us as a country.

[34:49] Michael: Yeah.

[34:49] Matt: It's like the last time I remember this country feeling really united and like no differences really mattered.

[34:59] Michael: Golly, you almost feel like even 9 11, because it did seem like so much of the country did come together and unite. It feels like ever since that moment, we've just crumbled because we also. I think a lot of the lies became more and more apparent and like, well, I'm not trusting you. It's like, what. What are we doing in Iraq? What's. What's going on here? What's. What are we doing in Afghanistan? Yeah.

[35:27] Matt: Yeah. I mean, it took a few years for that to

[35:30] Michael: Patriot act

[35:31] Matt: fall in. Yeah.

[35:33] Michael: But there's something beautiful about people coming together through tragedy, but then allowing that tragedy to define you. I think on the. On the other side is something that. It's like at some point you have to move on. Whether it's like losing somebody or 9 11, it's like you have to move into the future. It doesn't mean you have to forget, but just you can't be stuck back there.

[36:03] Matt: I think there's something else in addition maybe to the tragedy that has a uniting effect. I think it is the. I think it was so uniting because it didn't matter who you were, male, female, young, old, black, white, whatever. It didn't matter. Everyone had their own experience to one very simple question. It's like, where were you when that happened? And everyone had their answers. And we all were asking the same question of each other and talking about our own and wanting to know, what did you see? When did you find out? How. Wait, you. You know people in New York. What do they know?

[36:49] Michael: Yeah.

[36:49] Matt: You know, so it's almost like there was something of a higher order to which we could all appeal, regardless of what other differences we might have. I mean, in a sense, it was sort of a religious experience in that way. And in a country in which a religious experience, or let's say maybe the authority of the church or the recognition of Christ's raising from the dead, there isn't really anything unifying to point to. To where. Doesn't matter what I do or don't know about you. I know you have an answer to this one question, and we can talk about that. And maybe that's why when events like this happen, like the Alamo would be sort of on a smaller scale. And what did we say? We say, remember the Alamo? Because it was a thing that had massive significance in Texas at the time. And I imagine that it was sort of similar. It didn't really matter who you came across. You could talk to them about what happened at the Alamo because everybody had an experience of it and everybody knew something about it.

[37:58] Michael: Yeah.

[37:58] Matt: Again, smaller scale, but

[38:01] Michael: yeah. I mean, World War II would be, you know, it's like, what did you do for your country?

[38:05] Matt: Yeah.

[38:05] Michael: And there was like a. People were clamoring to go do something about it. Yeah. It's really. Yeah. It's just really fascinating as far as, like, the. The part how tragedy and can bring us together. I guess the part I'm mostly stuck on is like. Like when you can't move past it. You know, you see this. Soldiers that come back from war, and it's like they're still stuck back there.

[38:36] Matt: Yeah.

[38:37] Michael: And it's not something you can just say, like, snap out of it. Get over it. And there's a certain amount. Or like losing a loved one, like, you're losing your dad. It's not like you can say, okay, hey, get over it. It's been two months, or whatever it is. But there is something that. Because we all know, like, if you. If you stay in a place that's. There's an unhealthy place that you can be that doesn't.

[39:00] Matt: I have wondered about that myself, and I have been told to sort of get over it, you know, which. It. What has it been near nearly

[39:11] Michael: two and a half years? Three years.

[39:15] Matt: Yeah. Two and a half years. You know, maybe that's kind of a acceptable place to be. Like. Yeah. This probably shouldn't be really affecting so many things in your life still. But also there's this impossibility of when you're in a place of grief like that. And I'll just use his death to sort of describe something I've been experiencing on a larger scale emotionally. There's other events and things that have happened that contribute to this. But just for simplicity, when you're in grief like that, it isn't something you can just get over. You can ignore it and push it down and become. But that has a high toll, a high. Your body pays a high price. And I think everybody sort of intuits that, like, no grief is going to grieve and you might be successful in getting in its way in certain respects, but you're just pushing it further down the road. So it's not really something you can snap out of. But there also is a sense in which, well, maybe I can't snap out of it, but maybe I'm also wallowing in it and I'm brooding in it. I've become contemplative of it. Meaning it's like the only thing I really want to do. This is a hypothetical example. It's like I remember when one of my uncle's best. Lifelong best friend died suddenly. His wife told my mom, at some point, all he wants to do is sit on the end of the dock and drink beer. And it's been. At that time she was worried about him. It's been months. It's literally the only thing he wants to do. And I can sort of find my own versions of that in myself where it's like, I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. It's basically like I don't want anything to make it better because I just want to sit and commune with sorrow. And I think there's. There's a great danger in that. And I think we have to. When we are in places like this, whether it's grief or depression or anxiety, all of these things that sort of. There's sort of a. They have a siren call to them.

[41:49] Michael: That's a good analogy.

[41:51] Matt: And I think what we need to be careful of is going, you know, following the siren call into the death grips of those things. And instead say, maybe I'm gonna allow myself to sit on the end of the dock and drink beer for the next two nights. Then I gotta go take my wife out to dinner. And even if I don't wanna say anything, even if I just wanna cry, I just need to get out of the house. Cause I know that sitting on the edge of the dock turns to diving into the water and not coming back up. Something like that.

[42:29] Michael: I think it's so hard because as you're explaining the scenario, it's. There's. There's no. I think that's the hard thing about it. There is no real formula. Because it might be something you need six months.

[42:45] Matt: Yeah.

[42:46] Michael: Of just off the deep end.

[42:48] Matt: Right.

[42:50] Michael: But. And it's hard to say. That's like, okay, when is enough. Or when. Or if someone has a relation. Has a healthy relationship with.

[43:00] Matt: Right.

[43:00] Michael: The past or the present, you know? And I think it's just. I just. So I think that's where I have a difficult time. Understanding those things because I kind of feel like I'm. I'm more on the. I don't spend as much time in that space as probably other people do, if that makes sense.

[43:27] Matt: Yeah. I just give you this quick quote that I thought was interesting. Emotions are not yours. They show up on their own, often with a gang of buddies. You can't fight them, but you don't have to do what they say. And that was specifically about something like anger. I think we all sort of know that anger unchecked is a dangerous thing and can poison a soul. But also you kind of can't fight it. It's like any other emotion. You can deny it, but it's only going to come back stronger. And somebody suggested to me once this wasn't about anger. I'm trying to remember the specific emotion that it was. It was about fear. Actually. I was feeling a lot of fear in my life, just sort of free floating fear. This is after my dad died at some point and just feeling really, really displaced by his death and then the subsequent birth of my new and unexpected daughter and just very afraid of all future outcomes. And it was suggested to me that when that emotion comes, you can literally just talk to it and say, hey, I recognize you, but right now you aren't helping. I've got these things to do. You're getting in the way. So I'm going to ask you to step aside and I'm going to promise you that I will get back to you and address your concerns. And that turned out to be rather helpful for me because I was in a situation where I tried it. I tried it and it actually kind of felt like the fear dissolved. It kind of went away. But then I had to remember later on when I was feeling good and I wasn't struggling with it, I was like, oh, I promised you I'd get back to you and I'd address you. And so I sat down and I wrote down everything that I was afraid of. And that turned out to be quite therapeutic. And by that process, by sort of conceptualizing my emotion as something which could be negotiated with and then holding up my own end of the bargain, actually resolved it, I think that's kind of like the process of, yeah, you might need to sit and grieve for six months, but at some point you're probably going to have to make decisions to move out of it, or at least decisions to let life continue on despite it and say, maybe it's the grief from a breakup. And you're like, I don't Want to be alone. I don't want to get back out there. I'm not as in good shape as I used to be. I haven't been single in a long time. But at some point, you just have to say, okay, I don't know what's going to happen from this, but I'm just going to go out to dinner, or I'm going to go to that yoga class, or I'm going to go to this social event where I might be around other people and just see. But that is going to take some negotiation with yourself, because there's going to be a lot of you that doesn't want to do that.

[46:59] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I think I just, like. I think I would. I would tend towards more of the, like. Like, I have to more consciously draw these things out to. To encounter, you know? And I think a lot of times it surprises me that, like, even just, like, you going through what you did with your. When your dad passed, and I think about, like, what I went through with my dad passed, and I was like, man, I really loved my dad. But did I. I have to. Honestly. Different. Yeah, we have to honestly say, like, I did love my dad, and I, and. But, like, I thought it was beautiful. I mean, the love that you had for your dad was just really, you know, beautiful and deep. And it was very obvious to me. You know, it's like. I was like. So I. Like this. Like, it's like, I wonder if people have, like, look at how I answer the question. My dad, like, as if, like, oh, yeah, he's. He's dead.

[48:19] Matt: Well, you and I, I think, have process emotions very differently and experience emotions very differently. Like, I don't remember when I texted you and Alison and told y' all that my dad had died. Your response was something like, this is not at all what you said. This is the ballpark. You were like, oh, that's interesting. Something like that. Here's

[48:48] Michael: a tweet.

[48:49] Matt: Like, totally emotionally disconnected. Like, I was, like, at the bottom of life, and you're just, like, looking forward to talking about that. And I don't. I didn't. I didn't take it as offense. I was. It's reminded me of actually when your dad died, and you sent me a voice memo that you recorded of the nurse talking about his impending death.

[49:13] Michael: Mm.

[49:14] Matt: And I think you said a very similar thing.

[49:16] Michael: Yeah.

[49:17] Matt: You were like, this is really interesting. And I was like, your dad's dying, and you're. You're interesting.

[49:23] Michael: Yeah.

[49:24] Matt: But there's a part of, you know, there's a part of you that I envy in that, in a sense, because you. Well, I'm much more likely to do the wallowing thing, the brooding, contemplative thing. And I think you have just based upon. You've a very. We have different lives, and we're different people. Right. Shockingly. And I think you have established a, you know, maybe through a very difficult process, but a sort of safe distance with the wallowing thing. And I'm, you know, you don't go sit on the edge of the dock. I want to go sit on the edge of the dock.

[50:09] Michael: Well, I think that was kind of. Actually, the point I was kind of coming to is just that I have to be more intentional with kind of going into those things, and I don't know if I do that. Well, when I experience you going through it, I'm like, oh, shoot, am I doing this right? Am I. Am I ignoring. This is like. It's like, what Parts of me are not, like, mourning, like, I should, you know, like, watch my brother and my sister and my mom go through that. And I was like. I kind of felt a little bit bad because, like, when he was passing, like, I told you a story already, but it's just like, I thought it was really beautiful. Like, you know, it's like, again, what came to me was, it's like, here's this guy who watched me take my first breath, and I'm watching him take his last, and I was like. I was kind of.

[51:05] Matt: That was pretty profound.

[51:06] Michael: It is what it was. And I was like. I was kind of like. But then I was like, over my mom. My mom and my brother and my sister, they were just, like, torn up.

[51:14] Matt: And

[51:15] Michael: I was like, okay, should I be doing something different?

[51:21] Matt: Should I be saving the poetic profundities for later?

[51:24] Michael: Hey, guys. Hey, guys.

[51:25] Matt: Yeah.

[51:27] Michael: Had this thought. They're, like, completely inappropriate,

[51:31] Matt: but

[51:31] Michael: I did. I mean, even when I think of, like, when your dad passed and I was. I. I. I remember thinking. I was like, okay, well, how can I be there for you? And. And I think Alison's so much more of a natural at that. And I think it's really beautiful. And it's like. Because, you know, it's like, I love. I love you, and I love your dad. And it's like, it's not that those weren't. Those aren't significant things. Right? It's just like, I know you need something that's specific to you, and sometimes I don't know what to say.

[52:15] Matt: I remember for my birthday, which was a Month after he passed, I had made plans with you and Alison to go out to dinner one night that week. And that night, I canceled on you because I was feeling just really in the throes and grips of that grief. And I felt bad about it because I wanted to celebrate with y', all, and I wanted to be around people that I loved, but I also just didn't feel like I could get out of my house. And you. I texted you. Y' all were understanding. And I think, like, half an hour later, you showed up on my porch and knocked on the door, and you handled me a bottle of whiskey. And I just remember feeling so loved by that, because you weren't letting me withdraw. You also weren't forcing me to do the thing I didn't want to do. And then you were, in a sense, gifting me sort of the symbolic serum that I was needing. Just sort of just like, I just need a glass of whiskey and to sit on the porch alone. And there was something in that where you were like, I'm not going to let you be alone. I'm also not going to stay, but I'm not going to just take a text for a no. And so you showed up, you and Alison hugged me, gave me a bottle of whiskey, and just said, we love you and happy birthday, and you left. And I just thought that was such an incredible act of tenderness and love in that time for me.

[54:08] Michael: That's cool.

[54:09] Matt: Yeah.

[54:12] Michael: It's so complicated,

[54:16] Matt: this whole being human thing.

[54:18] Michael: It really is. Yeah. It's kind of fun. This book I'm reading, it's the last of the robot series, I think it's Robots of Empire by asmov. And the humans do all these human things, and then there'll be chapters where the two robots talk to each other about what the humans are doing and why. And it's so funny. I feel like so much more like, with them,

[54:42] Matt: you relate to the robots more than the humans.

[54:45] Michael: I'm like, yeah, I don't know why they're doing that either.

[54:48] Matt: Just purely analytical and rational.

[54:53] Michael: Yeah. But it's like, it's. It is. It is messy. And I. I feel like that's. I. I feel like sometimes I don't have any place to address some of these questions and our scenarios. Like, you know, Alison's a very emotional person, and I mean that like a very good way. Like, she really feels things deeply. And most of the time, all I know to do is just to be with her. It's like, I don't have the words. I don't have the. The things to do, but it's like I know, like, when she just needs me to be there. And I also don't do this very well so that this sounds like I'm. I'm doing this really well. It's like the first time I remember it was like year two or whatever of our marriage, and we're sitting at UT and Alison's crying. I forgot what it was about. And it's like the entrance to where all her co workers are walking by us and she's crying and I'm holding her. And this is probably bad, but my thought goes, is like, I wonder if these people, like, think I beat my wife.

[56:08] Matt: Wait, why? Oh, because she's crying. Because

[56:10] Michael: she's crying. Or like I did something or something like that.

[56:13] Matt: You caused it, clearly.

[56:14] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I was just like. And I remember that was the first where I started just kind of like letting go of that. Sort of like, no, this is like, some people just need this. That release, and I get to be there with them in that.

[56:31] Matt: Yeah. There's this great meme that I was trying to Google while you were talking, and I found it. It's just like a short screenshot of a text message. Like a text message received and then replied to. It's this girl, she texts her boyfriend and she's like, babe, my shawarma just fell apart. And he goes, oh, no. Are you being. Are you solution oriented about it right now or still in the feeling stage? And I feel like that's very much. You totally. You're like. So are you in feeling stage or are you ready for solutions?

[57:06] Michael: Yeah, okay. I'll

[57:08] Matt: just be quiet. Feelings. I'll just be quiet until we get to the solution. I'll have it all worked out by. Don't worry.

[57:13] Michael: Totally. Yeah. But I. I get the feeling side of it. I mean, it's. It's like sometimes you just don't need, like, how to work that out.

[57:31] Matt: Yeah.

[57:32] Michael: And it's because I. I see it myself. Sometimes I think I push myself into the solutions phase too soon.

[57:44] Matt: I think there's really something to that. I don't. I was listening to somebody in the last couple of years talk about the. The Jewish grieving rituals, and I. I don't know what it's called. There's a name for it.

[58:00] Michael: Sound very Hebrew.

[58:02] Matt: We're not anti Semitic here. But I think it's that they. The family is like, required to basically do nothing for like two weeks. It's like, by the law, you're not supposed to do anything. And I thought, I mean, there's a kindness in that in a sense, because

[58:25] Michael: especially if it's written, it's sort of like, oh, this is how it is.

[58:28] Matt: Right. There's a kindness in that. Because in a sense, that's what communities should do and provide. You know, it's like when. When a couple has a baby, we do a meal train and everybody goes so that they essentials are taken care of. It's taken care

[58:44] Michael: of. Great. Yeah.

[58:45] Matt: Yeah. And we do the same with deaths too. And I remember a couple, first week or two after my, my dad died and he's like, people are coming over to say hello. Where the family is spending most of our time in the living room just talking to people, receiving people, grieving people are bringing meals. But then there's also a part of that where it's like, I kind of want to break out of this. I want to get away somewhere. I want to. And it's sort of the version of like, I want to move to the problem solving stage. I'm kind of sick of this problem. Let's get it solved. But I think that there's also something very wise about sort of being forcibly made by the law to sit with the problem. And in this case, we're talking about grief. But I think even just with other problems in our life, whether they're financial or mathematical or, you know, romantic, I think you can do a lot of damage by trying to solve a problem problem that you didn't spend enough time with in the first place. Like enough time with the problem to really understand it. Because, you know, it could be revealed that, you know, in your hubris you ended up solving the wrong problem or only 60% of it. And the rest of your. The rest of the 40% of what you thought was a solution was really just doing a bunch of damage somewhere else.

[60:13] Michael: Yeah.

[60:13] Matt: So I think there's something with sitting with problems to where you can actually get to know them before you actually try to exert your pressures on them.

[60:22] Michael: Totally. To

[60:23] Matt: put a solution together.

[60:25] Michael: Yeah. I can definitely think in business areas. A lot of times I'll go to solve problems too early and not allow them to actually manifest completely.

[60:35] Matt: That's a great way to put it.

[60:36] Michael: Yeah. And ended up

[60:39] Matt: you end up solving symptoms

[60:41] Michael: totally instead of the actual. Yeah. Taking that complete splinter out. But you also made me think of, as you were describing that scenario of people coming over and I was like, I was like, oh, wow. It's like we also have to allow ourselves to also be Represent the symbolic, in a sense, like, yes, you are grieving for your dad, but you're also symbolic for them to come and grieve also.

[61:12] Matt: Oh, and that was really interesting in my dad's case, because my dad was a therapist for 40 years and had very impactful relationships with people. But by nature of the therapeutic relationship, which is private, all these people who came to his memorial, it wasn't like their relationship with him was also sort of a relationship with the community. They had individual and isolated relationships with him. And I'm talking specifically about his clients who. That's how they knew him. And I had so many of them come up to me at the memorial, like, urgently needing to talk to me. And I think it's because they were experiencing the grief of losing somebody very important to them. But they couldn't just turn to anyone else at the memorial and have that connection to him be expressed because their relationship with him was singular in a therapeutic setting. And so many people messaged me basically saying that, like, I feel like I need to tell you this. And I know my mom got a lot of that, too. I was kind of surprised with as much of it as I got. But the function that the formalized version of my dad's funeral served, I was so glad that we did it the way that we did, rather than something sort of lesser or more private. Not necessarily lesser, but just more private that I think allowed other people to grieve in a way that they really needed to, that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

[62:46] Michael: Yeah, I think that was an unfortunate thing for my dad. Like, he. Like, right when my dad died, it was like they're. They're putting the restrictions back on the hospitals. And so it was. Seriously. It was like 12 o' clock afternoon that day. There were the restrictions that were going in, and we got to go in at 11:30 and watch him pass.

[63:05] Matt: And if you had half an hour later, you wouldn't have been. Wouldn't

[63:08] Michael: have been able to do

[63:08] Matt: it. Wow.

[63:09] Michael: But then also, because it was so. And it's like we didn't have a service for him ever, because.

[63:16] Matt: Yeah, that's true.

[63:17] Michael: And I think that was. And honestly, you know, I know my mom because

[63:21] Matt: this is in 2021.

[63:23] Michael: 2021? Yeah.

[63:24] Matt: Early 2021. Yeah.

[63:26] Michael: Yeah. And. And it was really. It was hard for my mom. So I don't. I gotta be careful how I say this, but I feel like it's a little bit of a disservice to my dad and his memory. Like, my kids didn't get to experience other people talking about my dad.

[63:43] Matt: Yeah.

[63:44] Michael: Because he impacted so many people's lives. I mean, he was

[63:48] Matt: kind of a disservice to y'. All.

[63:50] Michael: Yeah, to us, I guess. His memory, you know, but didn't like. Like, my kids hear, like, even for me to hear things that maybe I've never heard about him, you know, I think there's. There are some things there that are for people that knew him really well that didn't get the mourn because they didn't have that symbolic part, you know, where they can see us and kind of like, hey, I'm giving that to you, you know?

[64:16] Matt: Yeah.

[64:16] Michael: Because there's almost like a priestly aspect that those who are mourning closest act for those who are a little bit further outside the circles, you know?

[64:27] Matt: Yeah, totally. Just like having a rush of stories pop into my mind. When you said something like stories about your dad that you've never heard. I heard a lot of those and got to hear those because we did actually get to have a public ceremony in a very public time between his death and the ceremony. Public meeting. My house, my mom's house, was full of people coming over to sit and tell stories. I remember somebody who probably hadn't seen my dad in maybe my entire life was like one of his young life leaders. I don't remember who it was. Somebody I don't know very well came over to the house. Didn't have a current relationship with my parents, but knew my dad when he was. Was young, like in high school and college, early college. And this person told me a story. They said, when your dad was, I don't know how old, 19, came. Came to me. This person was older than my dad and said, I want to ask you to tell me something. I. I want to know what you. I'm trying to remember how he phrased it. Something like, I want to know what you don't like about me. And this person

[65:46] Michael: sounds like you're dead.

[65:48] Matt: Yeah, right. This person basically said that that question had been on their mind for the decades since then. Like, what is that? People don't do that. People don't want to know what is not liked about them. There was something about my dad. He wanted to know that.

[66:06] Michael: Yeah.

[66:07] Matt: Because he wanted to learn from it, and he wanted to change it, and he wanted to. He really wanted to get to the heart of what things were. And this one question from this person decades ago lingered around in the mind of this person, and they came over and I got to hear it, and I got to say, like, what you said. Yeah, sounds like my dad. And then also get to, like, ponder, what is it that's about him that made him like that? Am I like that? Do I want to know what people don't like about me? I don't know. I wrestle with that. I've thought about asking somebody that question since then. I haven't ever. I mean, I'm fucking terrified to ask somebody that question.

[66:51] Michael: Yeah, well, I think you're a little more generous. You almost never balk at anything I say to you.

[67:06] Matt: Well. And I will say that that's one thing I do appreciate about our friendship. You do tell me the truth, and you don't spare my feelings, and I appreciate that

[67:17] Michael: that's a good thing. Or about it. I don't know.

[67:19] Matt: I think it's a good thing. Yeah.

[67:21] Michael: Yeah. Well, I think that's why. I think that's probably one reason. Like, one of the many reasons that you and I are so close is that it's like, I don't have to feel like I have to say things correctly. And I think that's the part that's so difficult, is how do you talk to somebody in a way that is edifying to them rather than, like, hey, these are my thoughts. You know, it's like. And I can trust you to, like, go, okay, that was.

[67:58] Matt: Do a little bit of translation. A little bit. Bit of reorganization.

[68:01] Michael: Exactly.

[68:02] Matt: You told me something long ago. You said that you thought about our relationship like a ship and that you were the control tower and I was the bow.

[68:14] Michael: Oh, interesting. Okay.

[68:16] Matt: And I don't think it was a very good analogy, to be honest,

[68:21] Michael: but I'm just

[68:21] Matt: kind of realizing something about it. Where. Which is what? I think that that's how you conceptualize the way that your thoughts function within our relationship.

[68:32] Michael: Oh, that's fascinating,

[68:33] Matt: because I do both on this podcast and even just personally in our interactions, do and enjoy doing the reorganization and the translation and the re. Articulation. But that's the thing that puts me in contact with the real world,

[68:50] Michael: dude. That's amazing.

[68:51] Matt: So I'm pushing the icebergs out of the way and saying this thought's going to come to life.

[68:56] Michael: Yeah. We're going to birth this thing.

[68:58] Matt: Birth this thing.

[69:00] Michael: Damn, dude. We're pretty cool.

[69:05] Matt: Okay, if we're complimenting ourselves,

[69:07] Michael: pretty

[69:07] Matt: bad time to turn the podcast off.

[69:10] Michael: All right, guys, thanks for coming out.

[69:12] Matt: Cheers.

[69:13] Michael: Cheers.

[69:13] Matt: Love y' all out there.

[69:19] Michael: I didn't know I said that. That. That's awesome.