Love is not transactional

[0:19] Matt: we go.

[0:20] Michael: Here we go. To the shores. Hey.

[0:24] Matt: Cheers.

[0:25] Michael: To the

[0:25] Matt: shores.

[0:25] Michael: Welcome. Welcome to you, Matt.

[0:31] Matt: Thank you. I like being welcomed.

[0:35] Michael: Wow. We've already. We've already started the podcast, so. But

[0:40] Matt: the pre. The

[0:41] Michael: pre

[0:41] Matt: cast, I'd like to be able to bring some of that into this conversation. Yeah. But I'm not sure exactly what it's about.

[0:49] Michael: Well, something kind of hit me as we were. I was like. Because I was thinking of the same thing. It's like how that's. That's a lot to cover and back. But I think maybe. Do you think we could maybe get to it in a way of just talking about submission? Because I was thinking like. Like, how do relationships work at all? Like there's some sort of submission that you have in a relationship. Like, I submit myself to you.

[1:15] Matt: Yeah.

[1:15] Michael: Because without that, it's really just transactional and, and you're not really, um. You don't really have a relationship. And the only way I can really see a relationship happening, whether it's between friends, a husband and a wife, co worker, a boss, is like, there's. There's a certain amount of deferral and understanding your role within that relationship. And I think most religions kind of have a sort of a map for this, you know, as far as, like, how you. What kind of. What is submission? What kind of submission and in the roles of different people. And so I was just thinking about, like, you know, even for like, you and I's relationship, you know, there's a certain amount of submission I have or even deferral to you and, and like. But with a friendship, it's kind of like you're. You're kind of peer to peer, but at the same time, I am. I'm allowing a part of me to, I don't know, as I want to say, be. Be vulnerable to being hurt. I guess

[2:44] Matt: I think at the core of what we're trying to talk about, which I don't think we've figured out what we're trying to talk about yet, but is the fact that the word submit is kind of a tricky word in our modern culture, what does it mean to submit? I think when you're talking about submission in a relationship, that sounds, I think, to most modern ears something more like sort of the S and M, like dom, sub kind of category, it's imagined that it's based on power that I submit to you, to your power over me. And perhaps in a post God world. That is the only way to talk about it. But I think the point that you're making is in our relationship, I submit to you, in something that is like an act of faith. I mean, first of all, I have a belief that you have something to say, which is a benefit to me. And I submit to your

[3:52] Michael: observations or insights.

[3:54] Matt: Your insights. Yeah. It's also an act of faith to, you know, sometimes when you're talking, especially not on the podcast, you kind of go all over the place. And I submit to. I don't understand what he's saying now, but I submit to the fact that there is a cohesive thought in his brain

[4:14] Michael: somewhere.

[4:15] Matt: Somewhere. And if we look long enough, we'll find it. Yeah, you know, it's like. But I believe that, that, that, that is like an act of faith to say, I believe that there is something of value that you are working on and that I will benefit from. And so it's almost an act of submission to sit quietly and listen, you know, rather than be thinking about what I'm going to say to you next, submit to your. To reside within your brain and not try to, you know, wait. Not just wait for my chance to show off my knowledge. So there's a submission in that. And I think it's much, you know, in a. In a marriage relationship, in a romantic relationship, it's much more pronounced. That sort of submission I think it's based on. So if you imagine that there is no God, then the idea of submission is about power, which is why people don't want submission in their romantic relationships outside of some sexual kink. Right?

[5:29] Michael: Yeah.

[5:33] Matt: I think modern culture wants to imagine that men and women are somehow equal in their roles within a marriage. And it's unfashionable to suggest, as the Bible does, that women should submit to their husbands, because it makes it seem like that would make the woman lesser. And I think we don't want to imagine women as lesser. Women don't want to imagine themselves as lesser. But there's also a submission in the idea of that, because it doesn't make the woman lesser. It actually makes the woman greater. And the part of the verse that people don't generally talk as much about, which

[6:17] Michael: is the very next one

[6:18] Matt: is the very next one, which is basically that husbands should die for your wife. Love your wife as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? He died for the church. What's the greater submission? Is it the husband dying or the wife respecting him? You know, and I think it's hard to look at ideas like that. I think from our modern vantage point where we have so many. Our discourse is so full of anti masculinity and femininity at broad, broadly, more broadly, and even just identity itself is a thing which no longer resides in the realm of a relationship. But we imagine that identity resides sort of within my own head. And my job is to authentically perform my identity. When they think the deeper reality is that all of identity is rooted in relationship. And so it follows that there is a proper role to assume within a relationship. I think our modern culture finds that really distasteful.

[7:46] Michael: That's pretty. I like that the whole idea of like our identity is relational. It makes a lot of sense to me is I can act out who I think I am, but really it's like you're going to mirror back to me who I am. And in that relationship it's like I might think I'm the greatest guy in the whole world. It's like, why don't you get it? It's funny that you try to beat you over the head with my identity as a really great guy. Like you're kind of a dick, you know. But I think maybe one area to go even before this was because I think when you said this, it kind of at dinner tonight, that kind of helped me frame our conversation a little bit better, which was like, what love is, Is willing the best for someone else? Is that how you said it?

[8:37] Matt: Willing the good of the other.

[8:38] Michael: Willing the good of the other. I think that there's something foundational. I think you can't have any of these other things we're talking about. Unless if you don't have love. Like if you're willing the good of the other, then there's something that you can then build on top of that.

[8:53] Matt: Well, I think we've kind of lost touch with what love is because that's. I like that definition so much because it's one direction. There is no definitionally, there is no return. I think that we live in a culture which thinks about relationships, especially romantic ones, as something which is transactional. You know, I love you so that you treat me the way that I want to be treated. And that isn't what love is. Love is I will the good, your good, which means I Act 1. It is an act of will, meaning I'm doing something about it. It isn't simply butterflies,

[9:42] Michael: philosophical butterflies.

[9:45] Matt: And it isn't philosophical, philosophical, Philosophical.

[9:48] Michael: Yeah.

[9:50] Matt: And it's that I act on and it's to will what is good in You. And there's a submission or a humility at the core of that as well, because what does it mean to will the good of another? I think at the core of that idea is the idea that it's, like, laced in there, that we all fall short of the glory of God. We are all not as good as we could be. We are not fulfilling our potential. And to love someone is to see them and their potential and will them to grow into that. So there's a humility there which is like, I love. It's not just you. It's like, I love the you that I see that you could be. And so I sort of have to admit to myself that you have fallen short. You're falling short in your relationship with me, and I'm falling short in my relationship with you. And it is only love by which we overcome that. So we kind of both have to submit to the fact that we're not who we could be. But back to the idea of the transactional versus the sort of one directional idea of love. I think to the extent that we imagine love to be a transaction in that we both get something out of the deal, I think we lose sight of the fact that the purpose of love is to. Is for us to grow into who we could be. We imagine that it's just something that takes care of, you know, in the romantic sense. Sexual pleasure takes care of the burden of running a home, to some extent, takes care of our insecurities. And I think the picture just starts growing smaller and smaller when you imagine love to be that way.

[12:00] Michael: Totally. And I think that also helps me frame kind of where I was starting out, because I think that's one thing. As I was talking that out loud as far as, like, in friendship, you submit. And I was kind of bothered by it. And then I remembered your definition of love, and I was like, oh, because it's got to be love. It's like, the reason why I submit to your criticisms, you know, is because it's like, I know that you. You want the best for me.

[12:24] Matt: Yeah.

[12:24] Michael: And so, like, I'm going to submit myself to that and take to heart. You might not be like, like, all the way correct. But I'm going to be like, okay, he said this for a reason. And Matt, generally speaking, wants the best for me. Yeah. So I'm going to listen and submit to that criticism or that directional, you know, direction or whatever it might be. And it's like, you have to have people in your life that. That you do submit to, because if Not. It's like, you know, you're just. You're just footloose and fancy free and you just live in this reality that you don't. You have no tethers, you know, And I think that's part of the idea of submitting is like. It tethers you to something, you know?

[13:05] Matt: Just reminds me of last week. We were sitting on my porch talking, talking about a business idea of yours, and I really kind of laid into you.

[13:14] Michael: I love it.

[13:15] Matt: Gave you some lashing over what I told you that I thought was very naive about your thinking. And what's so amazing is that I think it is because you and I love each other. I'm able to say that to you and you're willing to receive it. I mean, I think most of us, simultaneously, we don't want to hear the exact same thing that we claim we might want to hear. We really don't want to know, you know, what our weaknesses are.

[13:52] Michael: Yeah.

[13:52] Matt: And also simultaneously, we don't really want to say what we think because. Well, in part because we really don't know what we think until we try to say it and then we say it. And we may be a fool. We're ashamed. And I think that it's in the context of a relationship that is based upon love that both of those things can happen. And isn't that so beautiful that I can really. I can actually tell you what I really think.

[14:19] Michael: Yeah.

[14:20] Matt: And you submit to it because you know that it is what I really think. I'm not using you instrumentally. Yeah. It's not a transaction where I'm trying to get something from you

[14:31] Michael: or prop up your own ego. Prop

[14:32] Matt: up my. Yeah, like,

[14:33] Michael: be him.

[14:35] Matt: It's only possible to have a very real conversation. I think. I think your point is just really good. It's only possible to have a real conversation when both people are submitting to something. Without that conversations become what? Something more. Like, you see in. I'm just thinking about the pundit class and the political commentators, and it's like they're all just trying to best each other. And we see that so much of the time that we imagine that conversations have winners and losers. And when I talk about a real conversation, I'm talking about a conversation that digs toward and moves incrementally towards the truth, whatever that is.

[15:28] Michael: You also hear, like, a lot of those conversations that what they're saying in public versus what they say in private. Like, it's a lot more intimate of a conversation, a lot more nuanced and Just over the years, I've kind of just noticed that about, just different, you know, pundits. It's like when I hear like, I mean, let's take Ben Shapiro, for example. Like, you know, on his Daily show, he's very like, you know, pretty cuts pretty deep in his words, you know. But when you see him in conversation with people that are his peers in long form format, like, it's a lot more nuanced than he comes across on his, on his. And it's funny because he's a lot more relatable in the, in that sense because you're seeing that. That sort of breadth of, breadth of viewpoint that he has.

[16:25] Matt: Well, A lot of people who have a show, so, you know, it could be Ben Shapiro or it could be, you know, Stephen Colbert or Jimmy Fallon or any of these people that sit to the camera sort of in like one direction, they tend to develop and adopt a Persona. You know, it's like the Stephen Colbert that you see is not the Stephen Colbert, the real Stephen Colbert. He's a character in a sense that's been made up. And there's, I think Ben Shapiro is that way to some degree as well. You know, his brand is sort of like Hot takes. Right. But I was just thinking about how. In the vein of having a real conversation, so you and I submit to each other and we can have a real conversation that drives toward the truth. And isn't it such a relief that we don't have to bring a Persona to that conversation? You might compare that to. When I'm at work. I have a Persona. We all do. And it's easy to see that there because it would be inappropriate for me to be having conversations of the like that you and I have with my colleagues at work. So it's like everybody brings a Persona to work. You also might imagine that when you first start dating a woman, you're going to bring a Persona, which is that I'm going to walk in and I'm going to be very confident. I'm going to choose my words carefully. I'm going to attempt to express my attraction and give compliments and then compare and contrast that with any relationship six months down the road. Once the relationship gets more real and hopefully begins to be based upon love, I get to drop the Persona. Yes, I have confidence, but I also am terribly ashamed a lot as well. And it's only because of the submission of love that I can drop that Persona and actually show you who I really am and tell you what I really think about things.

[18:51] Michael: Yeah, that's interesting. I think what you're talking about is, like, sort of also the idea of masks, you know, and there's a healthy thing about these masks and these Personas, because not everybody wants your best. Wants the best for you. And so you kind of have to be a little bit guarded. It's healthy. It's good.

[19:07] Matt: Right?

[19:08] Michael: It can be bad if that becomes your Persona, becomes. You start to identify with your Persona more and more that you lose who you are. But it's. But there's something really good about that. And the more that you can drop that Persona and start to express yourself, it's like you're kind of submitting your boundaries to the other person. Like, okay, I've got this boundary of this Persona, the work boundary. And it's like, we're gonna. This is how we interact in this way. It's like. But once you. Once you kind of submit for them to kind of come in a little bit deeper, it's like you end up dropping that Persona a little bit. And it's like, it's a little bit more vulnerable because they're getting a different. A whole nother set of things are outside of that context. And I think that's. I think that's hard because it's almost as if we've turned a lot of things into Personas rather than the substance because of that. If I really am vulnerable and open myself up, you know, they might not like what they see. It's like, I don't like what I see sometimes. You know, it's like, it's like to be judged in that area, you know, Like. Like. Like. Like last week when I, you know, it's like, this is a new idea. Well, it's like, I'm going to open this idea to you that is pretty fresh and pink, you know?

[20:28] Matt: Yeah.

[20:29] Michael: And it's like you're. Start poking on it. It's like, that's going to hurt a little bit, you

[20:32] Matt: know? Totally.

[20:33] Michael: But the thing is, is if you don't ever do that, it's like that. That things don't ever get born. Like, there's no life that comes because it's all. You're. You're only dealing with these, like, hard shells that, you know, can't really be hurt, like marriage or friendship or, you know, even, you know, at a workplace where, you know, you have to start even getting into hard things with, like, evaluations and stuff like that. Hey, I notice how you speak to people is not healthy in the way that you address them. You know, can we do something about that. Like, oh, okay, you know, you can either be defensive and put up your walls. Right. But then I think too, it's like, I think a lot of many people, it's more of their reaction to their experience of people abusing that. You know, like someone has let down their walls and somebody abuses that. That intimacy of relationship. Right. It only takes like one or two bad experiences to truly sour, you know?

[21:39] Matt: Yeah, truly.

[21:42] Michael: But it's interesting. I think that's the powerful thing about. It's like when you experience love or when you experience a healthy relationship. Not perfect, but a healthy relationship. Because I think when I think of healthy, I think of something that's not perfect, that has bumps and bruises, you know, but there's like a. There's a growth, a growth element to it.

[22:07] Matt: What do you think that means? What is it? What is it? What is a healthy relationship?

[22:14] Michael: Well, I think maybe like, I could talk on two sides of it and then maybe it's somewhere in the middle. Yeah. It's like, I've always thought we have this one couple friend that they used to like, kind of yell and scream at each other and everything was on the table and probably they put too much on the table. It's like nobody was misunderstanding, like, what the other one thought because it was all there. And then you have like Alison and I on the other side where it's like, we don't put. We put like maybe one or two things on the table. So it's like sort of like the avoidance of conflict are conflict driven. And I feel like it's somewhere in between where you have a healthy wisdom of like, when to have conflict and to. To address that and also when to not to like, just, hey, I'm not going to do anything about. I'm not going to say anything about that because sometimes it's like, sometimes like it's me that's. I'm in a huff and Alison's really gracious to me and just kind of like, I'm not going to take the bait type thing, you know?

[23:20] Matt: Yeah.

[23:20] Michael: And other times it could be her, and I'm like, okay, hey, I'm not going to really take the bait. We're just going to, like, I'm going to let her let it kind of go, you know, settle out, you know? And other times it's like, it's like, no, what you just said really hurt me. Like, why would you do that? And it's like, it might be like you're never going to say anything perfectly or, you know, So I think that's the part of a healthy relationship is you see, you see the healthy and unhealthy play out in front of you, but it moves in a direction of, like, you see that relationship growing more intimate, you know, more. Like there's a more value add to it.

[24:00] Matt: Yeah.

[24:01] Michael: Would you say that? Or how would you. How would you think about that?

[24:08] Matt: I think any healthy relationship, Like, to me, a relationship is healthy if I can tell you what I really think. And to the degree that I can't do that, that relationship is less healthy because it's not as large as it could be. It's limited. Right. Like, and I'm talking about interpersonal relationships, not so much like, you know, working relationships, business relationships, friends, family, a romantic partner, You know, because like I said earlier, mostly we're afraid to say what we really think and we're afraid to hear what people really think. I think something that we don't, you know, we don't consciously do in our relationships is tell each other what we don't like about each other. And I think, especially in romantic relationships, we imagine that the relationship is healthy when you like everything about your partner. But the more intimate your relationship becomes, the more you're going to dislike them. In a certain sense, the more you love them, the more you will dislike them. I had this experience with a girlfriend. We broke up. Very amicable breakup. And we decided to have an exit interview and tell each other what we thought the other was good at and bad at as a. As a romantic partner, things that we liked about them, things that we didn't like about each other. And it was kind of amazing because I would say our relationship was the best it had ever been in that conversation, and it actually caused us to extend the relationship longer. But we don't do that kind of thing as a regular course of action. You know, I was thinking about how I think we brought this up when my mom was on the podcast, or maybe I mentioned this in some other episode, but there was this story about my dad that somebody told me, which was that when he was in high school, he came to them and asked them to tell him what they didn't like about him. I thought that was extraordinary. But I think we have an opportunity within a relationship to actually know ourselves because the other person can actually tell us the truth. So I think that that's. I think that that is the hallmark of a healthy relationship.

[26:56] Michael: Yeah, there's something about that. Just because, again, kind of something we're talking about before is humility, too, because you do have to have a certain amount of humility in order to, to be in relationship with somebody. And I think that's because it's like, I mean the part of it is you're not all that you think you are.

[27:24] Matt: Right.

[27:25] Michael: And it's like, you know, and the more that you are in relationships with somebody, the more that's going to become obvious.

[27:33] Matt: Yeah, they're going to reveal that to you. They're going to reveal your shortcomings to you

[27:37] Michael: totally.

[27:38] Matt: And in a sense like, thank God

[27:42] Michael: I

[27:42] Matt: want to know my shortcomings and I don't want to know my shortcomings. But ultimately if I have the humility enough to say, well see if I can suss this out. I don't think any of this really works without God because I have to adopt a position of humility in a world with God, it's necessary for everything.

[28:06] Michael: Yeah,

[28:06] Matt: it's hard in a world where God doesn't exist. What am I humble to? Nothing. There's nothing greater than me. I am the greatest thing that there is. But if I humble myself to God and I accept that I was created in his image, then I also accept that I have a lot of growing to do. There's a lot of who I am that is trapped in future potential and blocked by my own sin and my shortsightedness, my lack of faith, my self hatred, all of these things. I have to humiliate, humble, humiliate, humble myself to that. And then if I let someone love me, I allow them to show me that. And in part it's a really wonderful thing to be loved by somebody like that. Well, I mean not in part in whole, but in part because I might have some idea that I'm falling short of my own potential, but I'm short sighted of the ways in which I'm falling short. And somebody who really loves you is going to show you ways that you're blind, that you're blind to ways that you're falling short that you're blind to.

[29:31] Michael: That's really interesting because as you're, as you're saying this, I kind of see this dance happening. And because there's, there's one aspect that your shortcomings will be revealed but there's also something as the lover or the beloved is that you also, you also hold that for the other person. You know, does that make sense? Like the, this idea of like I am not all that I can be and, and there's an acceptance in that, like I'm going to accept you as you Are.

[30:04] Matt: Yeah.

[30:04] Michael: Who you are right now, but I'm not. I'm going to keep that in perspective of who you can be. So there's this part where it's like. And that's the dance that happens in relationship is like, accepting somebody for who they are and seeing who they could be and knowing, like, what they need at that time. So I think that's the part, too. It comes back to the love definition that you gave at the time is like. It's like, there's some times that we just need to accept the person as they are, full stop. That's it right now. It's not about who they could be. It's about who they are right now. And I'm going to accept that you right now. And then there's other times where it's like, hey, you're not who you could be. And you. And you need to hear that. And so. And they're gonna. They're gonna mirror that person. And obviously, it's not a perfect picture that they have of your potential, but it's a. A picture. And depending on their intimacy with you, it's like they have a better idea of that. Like, you have a better idea of that than, you know, somebody I see once a month or once a year or something like that. It's like, Alison has a really good view of what that could be.

[31:17] Matt: Yeah.

[31:17] Michael: You know, and there's a lot of things that she has to just accept about me and my shortcomings of who that person could be. But she. It's like. It's a value. It's a value add to me that she sees that person and she calls me to action, calls me to be that person.

[31:35] Matt: Right.

[31:36] Michael: And. Yeah, I think that's. I mean, that's. I think that's one thing we've. We miss out in sort of our secular society is like. Like, what is that? It's like a. It's like we define it in very material terms, you know, whether it be success or. And not that these things can't also be a part of this, but it's like we define them as very material things that are not to have. It's like building your house on sand rather than on a rock. You know, it's like. It's like, if you don't. If you don't have that rock to build on, then it's like all those things are just, you know, here's what you need to do to be successful. You got to do A, B, C, D, you know, and work out and do all those things. And it's like, okay, but if you don't have that foundation of being called to something higher, it's like you can do all those things and you're just. You're basically just feeding your Persona.

[32:37] Matt: Yeah. I mean, I think in a. Use the word secular, in secular society, the idea of being called to something doesn't really exist.

[32:50] Michael: Not technically. We use it. We

[32:52] Matt: still might use that. Use it, but really, it's. I think when we use it, when the culture uses it, it's more saying, well, I have a strong desire for this, and so I'm going to move toward it. But I think that there's a. We come to define ourselves more and more as our internal desires rather than in a context of a relationship. And that's why we might have one reason why we've developed a sort of transactional idea of love. Because if my identity is defined internally as my strongest sets of desires, why would I do anything that didn't pay me back on those terms? Right.

[33:58] Michael: Yeah. Like with. In a. You know, with. With God, it's sort of like all your desires are actually, we're submitting those to something even greater. You're not. You're saying, like, hey, my desires are not the top.

[34:10] Matt: Yeah.

[34:11] Michael: It's like there's something beyond my desires that I must submit them to. Right. You know, it's like,

[34:17] Matt: who's that guy? Clinic.

[34:21] Michael: Cliff Connectley?

[34:22] Matt: Yeah.

[34:22] Michael: Yeah.

[34:24] Matt: He was. Think. He was talking to Jake Paul, and they were talking about homosexuality, and Kleenecki said something like, well, I wasn't born with desire to have sex with one woman. I was born with the desire to have sex with as many women as I could possibly get to have sex with me. But I don't act that way. I submit my desire to what God says is good, and I mold it into that direction. I thought that was really an interesting response. And his point was that the homosexual argument is, well, I was born this way, and so I shouldn't have to change. And his point was, well, no, we're all born with desires that we change. We're called on to change. But, I mean, I think it's even there in that, in the sort of argument, the born that way argument, that I have a nature which should not be changed, it should not be manipulated. And that's, again, it's a very internal definition of identity. It is the sets of desires inside of me, and my goal is to act those out in the world. Whereas I think the alternative, which I think is necessary for a Good relationship is I have all kinds of desires and they lead me astray in all kinds of different ways. And I'm going to submit to a better way, and I'm going to submit to you and your judgment of how I'm playing this out in the world. And it's by virtue of that that you get some idea of something like a straight and narrow path. It's like I can behave in a way that improves my life and improves your life and improves my family and my community. But that's a relational thing. It's not about a law that you submit yourself to, nor is it about just simply acting out who it is that you think you are. It's like you talked about the dance. It's like a dance, and if we're all pointed towards something higher, then we all move, I think, towards something higher.

[36:50] Michael: That's interesting. It makes me think about, like. There's a thing I always thought about when I was. When I first started studying philosophy is I would try the philosophy on, like you would try on a shirt and wear it. And there is. That part is like, we do try on these different Personas, and. And it really. It is helpful for a period of time, and then it's not. I think that's the part that, you know, like, the people that you surround yourself with, you're also trying on different parts of them and, and working those, kind of. Working those. Working those ideas out with them. It's like there's a lot of things that you do that. That I've incorporated into my. My personal life. And over time, it's sort of like it gets a little bit manipulated, more true to me. But it's like, it's like, you know, it's like I've always thought with, you know, Alison, like, just her way of her acceptance of people is just so beautiful. And just by me being surrounded, being with her, I feel like I actually get to borrow that from her.

[38:03] Matt: Yeah.

[38:03] Michael: You know, and I think that's. That's. I think that's the benefit of that submission, that sort of opening yourself up to people. You also open up, open yourself up to the. To their. To the things that they bring and they give you and actually adds to you. And that can also work the other way too. You know, you surround yourself with people that are not healthy. It's like you're going to incorporate some of those, you know, bad habits or negative. You know, if you're around a negative person all the time, it's like, it's like you're Going to just. You're going to kind of like, tend towards that. So I think that's. It's interesting to see, like, we all submit ourselves, and so we have to also be careful of who we submit ourselves to relationally. And that's why we have those walls and Personas, is to actually protect us from some of those negative influences. You know, I think for like, you and I, you know, you know, the parts of you that are not pretty, you know, but that I get to see is sort of like. It's sort of. It actually benefits me too. And that I'm seeing it worked out in front of me, you know, it's like you do with me. It's like, like, oh, well, I still have. Michael played that out. I don't know about, but. But it's like. It's like there's. There are very few people that would. Would be. Would be. Get to see that. And so it's like we actually benefit ourselves by. By opening up ourselves in that way. Because you actually get to get to have another individual is acting in the world that you get to learn from because, like, oh, I wouldn't have done it that way, you know, as well as their good things and. But, you know, if you surround yourself with, you know, dickheads, it's like you're going to. That, you know, become a dickhead, probably.

[39:55] Matt: Yeah. Feel like, want to play with the idea that our culture has lost or. Or has gained a distaste for both humility and for forgiveness. I think we've lost both of those ideas. And the breadth of life becomes a lot narrower without those ideas.

[40:30] Michael: Yeah,

[40:32] Matt: because, you know, we're talking about relationship. And. The more intimate you become with someone, the more you can, as I said, tell them what you really think. But what. That's a process of opening yourself to that person, making yourself vulnerable to them. It's removing the protection. I'm going to stop protecting myself from you. And I think to that degree, especially in a marriage, The more vulnerable you are, the more likely it is that that person is going to do more damage to you than anyone else ever has. And that's kind of a. It's an interesting observation because I think we imagine a marriage to be, you know, a positive thing. This person loves me, they take care of me, they're careful with me. When in reality the terms are something different than that, because maybe no one's ever loved me as much as you've loved me, but also no one's ever hurt me as much as you've hurt Me, what do you do with that? I think for a relationship to work, you have to develop some concept of forgiveness. On the other side of if your idea is that love is transactional, then injury will also be transactional. It's like, you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you. And I think that the concept of forgiveness is really kind of radical because if you hurt me and I forgive you, what I'm doing is saying, I'm not going to balance the scale. I am not going to return what you have given to me. I'm going to move forward in a sense, as if you hadn't done that. It is to. Leave the transaction. And I think we've forgotten about that largely in our culture, because, I mean, that's what, like, cancel culture comes to mind. Everybody, Everybody's scales need to be balanced, right?

[43:13] Michael: Oh, yeah. And how do you do that? How

[43:14] Matt: do you do that? Well, you can't.

[43:16] Michael: Yeah. Plus, it's like, it's. It's also like, what is your punishment? Like when you say, when you say, okay, you know, if I wrong you, and that means you're gonna wrong me, it's like, by what scale? Like,

[43:27] Matt: right,

[43:28] Michael: like I cut off you, I cut off your pinky, you cut off my hand because you think that is, you know, proper retribution for my sin. And, you know, I think that's part of it is it's like we all have these different scales that we measure people by. Like, you know, if you and I agree on most things, and I might have like a, a lesser retribution towards you, but if somebody else does the same thing to me that I don't like, well, maybe I want more retribution against that person because I don't like them or I disagree with them on certain things. So I think that's where it really gets hard, is like, we're not, we're not good at dealing out retribution, you know,

[44:12] Matt: or justice for justice

[44:14] Michael: for them.

[44:15] Matt: And the reason I started by saying, I think that these concepts, we've lost these concepts. And I think the reason that we've lost these concepts is because we live in a post God culture. Because you, you have to have God for these concepts to work. Part of forgiveness is me saying, justice is not mine to serve. Retribution is above my pay grade. You know, I don't have the ability to work out what is just. I don't have the ability to work out the proper retribution. And so I leave you to be judged by God. You don't need my. I don't need to judge you because God's going to do that. And so I actually can walk away from that transaction. The transaction of reciprocal injury. Right.

[45:06] Michael: So this is something that Alison's so good at. She's like, like, so quick to, like, ask for forgiveness from me, and then I. Then when she does that, and she does it very. I mean, this is in a sincere way. And then I see how I was wrong. Like, damn it, how can you be asking me for forgiveness? And now I see, like, so much more clearly, like, my. Sinfulness, but, like, my. My part in this.

[45:40] Matt: Yeah.

[45:40] Michael: And I think that's part of what it's. It's sometimes even just forgiveness is not even for the other person. It's for yourself.

[45:46] Matt: Yeah.

[45:47] Michael: It's like, okay, hey, I'm gonna break the cycle, and I'm going to move outside that cycle of retribution or tit for tat. You know, it's like, I'm. I'm not going to play that game. It's like, you know, it's like. I think there's part where, you know, when you forgive somebody, doesn't mean you need. You have to trust them. And I think sometimes people have that in their. In their. Oh, if you forgive me, then you would trust me. It's like, no, trust is something that you earn over time, and forgiveness has nothing to do with that. So you can forgive somebody who is untrustworthy.

[46:24] Matt: Yeah.

[46:25] Michael: And you're just basically saying, hey, I'm not going to be a part of this cycle, keep perpetuating this. This thing, you know, by me doing a tit for tat with you. But, yeah, I was thinking about this because when you said. Remind me how you said this. Something that means that I can tell you whatever I think or what I'm thinking. What was the first part of that?

[46:57] Matt: I think we were talking about healthy. But what makes a relationship

[46:59] Michael: healthy? Well, I kind of wanted to add. I think there's maybe a couple of other elements there, too, because.

[47:04] Matt: No, that's the only element.

[47:07] Michael: Wrong. Because I was also thinking about emotional parts, too, you know, that I can act out emotionally. And you're not gonna. You're going to accept that of me. You know, it's like. Because I was just thinking about. I don't really. I don't really usually, like, have reactions to things. And then a couple weeks ago, like, Alison's asked me not to eat the cornbread, and I was like, there's. We won't get into the particulars of it. But it was really funny because, like, Alison asked me that, and I was like, I kind of was like, well, what are you, what are you talking about? Like, I'm just having this. She's like, I know, but I can't. And I said, well, make me something I can eat then. But it wasn't necessarily even what I said. It was how I said it. And I'll admit I don't usually have those outbursts. And it even kind of startled me when I did it. I kind of was like, what did I just do? But she was so kind and gentle, you know, that it's just sort of like, like, if she would have, like, reacted to me even more strongly, then I, I would have had a decision. Do I defend myself and my outburst that I know was not the right way to do it? You know, that's, that's. Then that, that's how that can escalate into something. And then all of a sudden, there's a rift between us.

[48:43] Matt: Right?

[48:47] Michael: And so I think that's just, it's just you're also opening yourself up to people emotionally that you're going to be able to react and to engage in things that, that you could be wrong about. Like, she was actually impressed with my reaction to her. She's like, she was like. She's like, no, I'm really impressed that you acted that. Reacted that way. And I was like, well, it definitely was not, like, kind

[49:14] Matt: of. So you were saying other elements to what makes a relationship healthy. And is the point you're making that you can be sort of safe to have an outburst?

[49:26] Michael: Well, an outburst or even just like, like, this at work affected me, and you can cry to your partner and not be like, man, grow up. Get over it. You know, it's like, it's like you're opening yourself up to, like, yes, this might not be a big deal, but for some reason it was a big deal to me and, and to feel safe in that space. And there's always the, the, the difference of men and women. It's like, are you wanting solutions or you just want to. You just wanting to vent? You know? Yeah, it's like, I mean, sometimes, like, I think, you know, you and I need that too. It's just, hey, I'm just venting right now. We don't need to do solutions, but mostly guys are more solution oriented for the most part. And so it's just interesting, like, as you are in that relationship, you're definitely opening yourself up to a lot of the confusing, chaotic spaces of, you know, even just our podcast, you know, this, we come here and talk about things that we don't really know a lot about. And we're learning as we go. It's like we're kind of. And our relationship has gotten deeper over the years because of this podcast, you know, or it's one reason of the deepening of our friendship is because we're able to come and just like, all right, let's try on some things here. What do you think about this?

[50:51] Matt: I have this lyric in one of my songs. The song's called Until My Dying Day. And I wrote it when I was married. And it was an answer to a question I think that I had, which is something like, well, what is it? What does it mean to love and to be loved? And there's this line in there that says, will you. Will you love me still when I've fallen down and I want to stay broken? You know, I think it's very often in our life where we fail. We fall down and we don't want to get back up. We want to just give up and stay broken. Just like, I'm broken. I'm not worth fixing. I don't want to, you know, and you can't really, you know, you can't get away with that at work, for example, you're gonna lose your job. There's a lot of contexts in which you cannot get away with that. But I think what. Maybe this is kind of what you were talking about with your saying sort of the emotional outburst. It's like, can you love me still when I know I'm making the wrong decision? Something like that. Or I want to love you still when you're being self destructive.

[52:28] Michael: Because it's so interesting. Even in that there are limits, you know, which is. Which is really fascinating. I think sometimes our. We've dialed that down too low. Like our limits are too low and that we're not as willing to walk through things with people. It's like our tolerance is. When we see the ugly, you know, it's. It's like, oh, I'm going away from that. Which I think is interesting because, like, I think that's why sort of like Jesus example is like such a. You know, he was never turned away from people's shortcomings. In fact, it drew him closer to them. And I think that's. I think that's really something. Something beautiful, you know, but he was also not afraid to be like, hey, you know, call. Call spade a spade. You know, it's like he whitewashed tombs when he's addressing the Pharisees. So it. It's just really Complicated. Like, the Pharisees are just putting on this Persona of righteousness, and he's just. He calls them out and says, hey, you know, it's like you're just a whitewashed tomb. There's death inside there. On the outside, looks nice. And, you know, I think that's. I think those voices in our. In our world are really powerful that can see that. That are drawn to those who are broken. And in a way, that is healthy, because that's. I think that's something that really helps us. I mean, and in relationship, it's like, you know, I think you and Alison specifically make me a better man because even in my shortcoming, you guys call me to something greater. And I think that's. I think that's really powerful because it helps me see it. It helps me see the times I don't see it, you know, And I think that's. We see that in Jesus with a lot of these, like, broken people. Like, he sees them whole. And so that's. I think that's why he's able to be in those kind of places is because. And it's powerful, and people feel it. It's like whenever someone sees, like, you're. You know, if you have good parents, I mean, you know, moderate to good parents, you know, it's like they. They see a version of you. Like, when I look at my kids, I like, oh, man, I see a version of you that is amazing, you know?

[55:07] Matt: Yeah.

[55:07] Michael: And I can't even see the actual amazing version of you. And so usually, like, with parents, it's like, they're safe because they know you. They know your shortcomings. They know all those things about you because they changed your diaper, you know, but they still love you despite all that. Like, I love you whether you up or not. It's like, it's like you're my child. And. And it's like I see your potential. And I think that's. I think that's very empowering to people is. Is whenever they. When someone else sees that in them. Yeah, I love that. Just in my head, just it's going through my kids, and just like, it's like the. It gives them the confidence, too. Whenever you can call that. Call that out in them. And you see. You see it happen. You see that sort of, like, light come on, too. It's like,

[56:09] Matt: yeah,

[56:10] Michael: it's like, hey, you're really good at that. I suck at this. But. But you see this little spark in their eye, like, yeah, I am kind of good at that, you know? Or even just. I love, like, our conversation last Wednesday when you were, like, really beaten on me about the business idea. But it was. It's really. It was really fun because I. We have a history of doing that, and I know that I always walk away from those things with so much more because we beat it up so bad.

[56:46] Matt: Right?

[56:47] Michael: And so, like. Like, through you, I've learned the value of that deep, you know, just grinding. What is this? Here's what I see. What is this? You're like, that's dumb. I'm like, no, it's not. It's like, what about this? But on the other side of it, you're just like, oh, okay. Some of the bullshit falls off of it, and you see a little. A different shiny object there that you're like, I think there could be something to. That

[57:14] Matt: could be refined. To

[57:16] Michael: be refined.

[57:17] Matt: Yeah. Well. And that's what I want out of my relationships, is to be refined. To be. To become the best version of what I'm called to be. Even though I don't really know the answer to that. It isn't like I know it. Maybe that's why identity is relational. Because as much as we think we know who we are, we really don't.

[57:53] Michael: Yeah.

[57:54] Matt: We need relationships to shine a light on us. And. It's hard. Hmm. It's often hard. But I think, yeah, I feel really blessed by my relationship with you as well. I mean, I can't imagine who I would. I mean, this is a great point, right? It's like, I don't know who I would be if you and I hadn't spent

[58:23] Michael: ungodly amount of conversations,

[58:25] Matt: just tons of time, like, really intentionally trying to get to the bottom of things. I mean, I feel like I've become smarter, more articulate, more understanding. Who would I be without all of that? It isn't imaginable. So I am who I am by virtue of my relationship with you, just like I am who I am by virtue of my relationship with my parents and my children and the. The romantic relationships that I've had. So I feel really thankful for all of that. And I just. I'm just thinking you were talking about telling your children, like, you were really good at that. If who we are is defined by our relationships, which I believe that that's true. It makes me want to be more. I don't know, like, goes back to the definition of love, to will the good of the other. It's an action. It makes me want to be more active in my relationships.

[59:30] Michael: That's really good. Yeah.

[59:31] Matt: And, you know, especially in familial or romantic relationships that last a long time, you. You can easily become kind of complacent and take for granted what is there.

[59:43] Michael: Totally.

[59:45] Matt: And I'm just thinking, Who could we be if we're very careful not to become complacent and take each other for granted and speak into each other's lives, point out the things that we see? Because so often, you know, you tell your kids you're really good at that. If you hadn't said that, they might never have thought. Isn't like, who we are is

[60:11] Michael: obvious.

[60:12] Matt: Is obvious. And you'll. You'll figure it out eventually. You know, it's. We need each other to point things out about ourselves, both what we're good at and what we're bad at.

[60:22] Michael: Yeah.

[60:23] Matt: Like, you know, hey, Michael, I think you're a little blind to. Your. Blind to yourself over here, and it's causing these issues in your life.

[60:33] Michael: Yeah.

[60:34] Matt: Or, hey, Michael, I think you're kind of blind to the fact that you're super talented at. Well, this is a great example. You're super talented at talking to people. You imagine yourself to be very antisocial, but you're one of the best conversationalists in a social setting around. So it's like, I don't think you quite see yourself super clearly there, and I'm happy that I get to witness. To bear witness to it and be able to show you that.

[61:08] Michael: Yeah.

[61:10] Matt: So maybe we leave it there. I feel, like. Not quite sure where else to go, but I. I feel encouraged by that idea of just. Just taking a more active role. And what is it? Pointing out the obvious in a sense, like.

[61:31] Michael: Well, it just makes me. I mean, I think kind of the point you're making at the very end there, I think kind of wraps it up pretty well. It's like, it's. It makes me want to be more relational.

[61:43] Matt: Yeah.

[61:43] Michael: You know, and to be more aware of, like, being that for people.

[61:52] Matt: Yeah.

[61:53] Michael: You know, so it's like they don't have to, like. I don't like not. Not being the receiving end of it, but being on the giving end of it. I. I see that. That for some reason, this conversation is Hell's has kind of opened some of that to me. Is that, wow, what if I could. What if I could just do that more.

[62:13] Matt: Yeah.

[62:13] Michael: And just give that to people. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, at the root of it, that's what good customer service is. You know, it's just like, hey, hey, how's it going man I really like that shirt and they all suddenly just like that's really cool it's like

[62:33] Matt: isn't that amazing that you can change somebody's day whole day.

[62:36] Michael: Yeah.

[62:37] Matt: By just saying something that was in your head.

[62:40] Michael: Yeah.

[62:41] Matt: And so so many of the things that we think in our head especially when it comes to like short term interactions with people that we're not close to we just leave them up there in our head.

[62:50] Michael: Yeah.

[62:51] Matt: And I think we just are we've a richness of opportunity. Affect other people and to do to transform people's days and transform who they are whether it's you know like you said a customer service setting where you're serving somebody a drink or a meal or within the context of our most intimate relationships we have transformative power Let us not forget it.

[63:25] Michael: Yeah I like that transformation Woman of power. All

[63:28] Matt: right cheers.

[63:30] Michael: Thank you guys.

[63:30] Matt: Thanks for being with us tonight.

[63:33] Michael: Happy

[63:33] Matt: Wednesday until next time.

[63:37] Michael: Yes.