The Conundrum of Cain

[0:20] Michael: I just thought about, like, you and I are doing a lot of this on our own individually, and I was just like, it doesn't have to be long. It just has to be something.

[0:28] Michael: Yeah. Well, cheers to that.

[0:30] Michael: Cheers to that. Welcome. To the shores. To the shores. To the shores. Ma'. Am.

[0:39] Michael: How's it going?

[0:40] Michael: I don't know. I've been enjoying our conversations over the last few weeks, actually. I just enjoy all of our conversations. I like talking to you, but I feel like there's been a lot of. We've kind of in a little bit more of an exploring mode in areas that were not as. Not that we're certain about the other things we've talked about, but it's definitely felt more exploratory. I've gone back and thought about the things we've talked about, and it's like, do I believe that? What does that mean? And kind of wrestled with it.

[1:13] Matt: I feel like our discussions, particularly before and after the podcast on Wednesday nights, have been particularly rich, and I apologize to the audience that we can't bring you into that.

[1:25] Michael: You want four hours of Matt and Michael?

[1:28] Matt: Well, it's just a. It's a. I want to say, materially different kind of thing, but maybe it's a spiritually different kind of thing.

[1:36] Michael: Yeah.

[1:37] Matt: Having, like, the podcast conversation is a particular kind of conversation, whereas the, you know, when it's just you and I, that's a whole different kind of thing.

[1:47] Michael: Yeah.

[1:48] Matt: But I hope to bring more of that onto the podcast. I think. I hope that the longer we do this. My filter. I'm kind of scared to say this, but that my filters come down more and that I can say what I think and wrestle with what I think. You know, so much of the world that we live in, and maybe this is kind of part of what I want to talk about tonight. You know, we imagine that the world is full of people who know what they think and they're going to tell you what they think. You know, it's the pundits and the podcasters and this sort of persisting idea of, like, the expert class. But I think there's got to be a word for this. It's like, it's the same effect of everybody puts their best on Instagram, and you start comparing your whole self with the best of everybody else.

[2:44] Michael: Yeah,

[2:47] Matt: I don't really want to be that kind of podcast. Totally. I want. I mean, we called it the Shores of Ignorance for A reason. So we want to be in this place of exploration and in this place of wrestling with ourselves and the ideas that we're rightfully struggling with and not, you know, you and I are not getting together in order to say what we have discovered. We think. We are here to discover what we think.

[3:12] Michael: Yeah.

[3:13] Matt: And so on. One way, I hope that my filters come down, because there is inherently a set of filters that come up the second you hit record, and you know that this is going to be listened to by some number of people. There's a lot of fear, and I think we've made great strides to move away from that fear. We had these rules when we first started the podcast of topics that we wouldn't talk about, and those have just one by one, evaporated, and we don't have any of those rules anymore. And I feel really glad about that. But there's another side of that where I feel like, well, how many people am I going to ostracize by lowering my filters and struggling with what I think in public? And the answer is not zero. It's some. And that's hard. Again, in an age where we sort of define our social currency or our social cachet as the number of followers or the number of likes. And so losing any of those feels bad.

[4:16] Michael: Yeah. I think it's interesting, the more I talk to people, and I think a lot of the. Just you and I practicing that with ourselves, and also with this podcast and being able to talk with people, I find that actually people are hungry for that. Like, I was even talking to the lady who does my hair, who cuts my hair, and she was like, yeah, it's like, we're so polarized. It's like we can't really talk about anything. And it's like, I don't really know where she sits politically. It's like, but. But you. I just. In the way she said it, she's like, there's a yearning for, like, hey, let's have these conversations. But I also wonder, like, how, you know, even in all of us, you know, what are my limits? You know, it's like, what's too much or too far? You know, it's like, well, you went too far or something like that. You know, I think that's. I think that's. I feel like that's what you're kind of saying is like. Like somebody listening to you or me and our, you know, wrestling through these ideas is like, oh, well, now you went too far, you know, or you touched a sacred stone that should not Be overturned. And you know, it's hard because it's like there are those sort of like. I mean, the word provocative has been thrown around just so willy nilly and, and. But there are people that are. There just, just want to stir up things and say very outlandish things. And that's not really the conversation that you and I are trying to have. It's like, it's like, no, what are, what do we think about these things that are going on in the world around us? And sometimes we don't know. Most time we don't know.

[5:55] Matt: To, to your. What do you call her, your hair dresser?

[6:00] Michael: I don't know. I actually didn't know how to say it. It's like I just call her by her name.

[6:04] Matt: Yeah. Her point about us being divided. There was a point that Bret Weinstein made on the last episode of the Dark Horse, which I can't remember the number for it. 297. Maybe if you think about it, it kind of becomes obvious, but I probably wouldn't have noticed it, but he was pointing out that we live in a very strange kind of world. Now he uses the analogy of Plato's cave. You know, it used to be that we're all sort of sitting in this cave and seeing something. Shadows playing on the wall. But we're all seeing the same shadows. So at least we can have some conversation about what might be going on. But it's as if we're caves inside Plato's cave. It's like he makes the point that you could be sitting in a room in the same physical reality with somebody, but if you're both on your phones, you kind of assume that you're doing the same thing and maybe you're encountering most of the same stuff, but it's not true. You're each getting via the algorithm, a curated set of stuff where you're seeing a whole different picture. Especially, especially when taken in totality, you're receiving a much different picture of the shadows on the wall than the person sitting in physical reality next to you. Because they're looking at a different feed.

[7:21] Michael: I mean, you saw it this weekend with the no Kings rallies and it was just really interesting to see the different narratives that were playing out on both, on both sides of that. You know, it's not binary, but on both sides of what the interpretation of the weekend was. And, and I think that's just. It is like kind of what you're saying is like you're, you're locked into a certain shadows and then I'm Locked into another certain shadows. And then we don't share any sort of common.

[7:50] Matt: But we're making. I think the point is we're making the naive mistake of thinking that we're talking about seeing the same thing, but we're not. And I don't know how you get over that. That. That does divide us because we are living in different realities.

[8:05] Michael: Yeah.

[8:07] Matt: And, you know, it's like, what do you. What do you do about that? And I think one answer that comes to mind is in a. You kind of have to. Well, you have to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to put your filters down and accept that, oh, I didn't think I went too far, but you're dealing with a different set of reality. And in your reality, I went too far. And maybe I need to respect that here and be humble enough to let you tell me what it is that you think you're seeing. And then you need to be able to do the same to me. I mean, that's. We have to, I think, consciously get over the division and polarization as a choice.

[8:52] Michael: Yeah.

[8:52] Matt: I don't think that with technology where it is, there's an institutional way to get over it. I think it's more. Has to happen as a conscious choice in every conversation that you have, especially as AI is very nearly approaching the point where you cannot tell what's real and what's not real.

[9:12] Michael: Yeah. I've noticed that the last few weeks, I've been like, wait, is that even some of the outlandish things? It's like, wow, that was. I know that's AI, but that was really.

[9:23] Matt: Yeah,

[9:24] Michael: that was really good.

[9:25] Matt: Yeah.

[9:26] Michael: No, it's true. I think I like, I like your point as far as. Like, as an individual, you need to make that a point to. Well, it kind of comes on a few different directions too. Is one is testing the waters with people as far as, like, really? Why do you think that? Like, if you don't disagree with them, don't just tell them like, you disagree with them. But the probe deeper is like. And ask the question, like, why do you believe that?

[9:52] Matt: Be inquisitive.

[9:53] Michael: Inquisitive. And if you believe something different, you know, state that difference and say, like, why do you think this other point of view is wrong? Or, you know, not accurate or whatever it might be and more of a. Less of a. I'm telling you how it actually is actually. Then like. And again, it has to be from a genuine inquisitive space, you know.

[10:17] Matt: Yeah.

[10:17] Michael: Like, that's interesting. Like how did you get there?

[10:25] Matt: So back to my point about the social media age and us comparing ourselves to the constant broadcast of the best of everyone else. I'm gonna read this quote from Carl Jung. He says, the world is full of people suffering from the effects of their own unlived life. They become bitter, critical, or rigid, not because the world is cruel to them, but because they have betrayed their own inner possibilities. The artist who never makes art becomes cynical about those who do. The lover who never risks loving mocks romance. The thinker who never commits to a philosophy, sneers at belief itself. And yet all of them suffer because deep down they know the life they mock is the life they were meant to live. That stood out to me for a couple of reasons that I want to get into. Some very personal. But isn't it interesting that I think that there's a sense of discouragement and disappointment lingering around a lot of people's hearts? We spend so much of our time looking at the best projected back at us, and we think, why is my life not looking like theirs? How do all these people get to go on these crazy vacations? Why is there so many people I know in the Maldives or, you know, Saint Barts or whatever? Why do they have that house or that car? Why do they look happy with their partner or their spouse? And all of those things feel so fleeting in my own life? And when we, to Carl Jung's point, we suffer from the effects of our own unlived life, I think it's that we all know that there is something better for us. And whether you approach that in spiritual terms or not, I think we can all recognize that we have unfulfilled potential. And the longer that potential goes unfulfilled, the more angry we get at seeing it in others. And I think that there's a lot of that going around and a hidden danger with the AI part, because a year ago, at least, you were comparing yourself to the best part of a real person's life. If, as I expect it to happen, the majority of content that we start seeing online aren't real people. They aren't real lives. This could do some real psychological damage to a lot of people because they're comparing themselves to something which isn't even real. I mean, it was one step removed from real when it was just the best of other people's lives. But now it's just, what? It's

[13:29] Michael: completely manufactured.

[13:30] Matt: You can't even really say it's like someone else's imagination. It's not even really art. It's just what AI thinks we want to see. It's consumed all of our shit and it sells. It shows us what we think we want to see.

[13:43] Michael: Yeah.

[13:44] Matt: So it feels like that whole thing could really run away.

[13:53] Michael: I kind of want you to read that quote one more time. I'm sorry, I really.

[14:00] Matt: So Carl Jung says the world is full of people suffering from the effects of their own unlived life. They become bitter, critical, or rigid, not because the world is cruel to them, but because they have betrayed their own inner possibilities. The artist who never makes art becomes cynical about those who do. The lover who never risks loving mocks romance. The thinker who never commits to a philosophy sneers at belief itself. And yet all of them suffer because deep down they know the life they mock is the life they were meant to live.

[14:37] Michael: Something that sticks out to me with that is because that's scary, because when you do that, you will be judged. You know, I think that's a part of, like, if. If a thinker never commits to a philosophy, then you can't judge them. If an artist never produce art, you will not be judged. If you never marry, if you never. You know, it's like. It's like. I think that's the hard thing is, like, if you ever.

[15:00] Matt: If you don't love, then you can never be accused of being a bad lover.

[15:04] Michael: Yeah. So it's just sort of like. I think that's the scary thing about acting in the world is that you will be judged. And, you know, I think that's. That's intimidating and scary and there's something about. You can also be superior to others because you. You can't be judged because you're not committed to anything. It's like, I'm only committed to tearing down everything else and not. And not allowing myself to come under that same judgment. You know,

[15:36] Matt: certainly see a lot of that around. Mm.

[15:39] Michael: I think that's just really. It's a. It's a. It's kind of a. A dead life because it's like all you're doing is. Is criticizing others and not allowing. Opening yourself up for me, that's what you do when you get married or in a relationship. It's sort of like you're. You're going to be judged by the other person. Like, do I find you sufficient or capable to be my partner? And it's like to be my husband or to be my wife? And it's sort of like, you know, but if you never put yourself out there, then you. No one's going to make that distinction. And I think that is what's. What is scary as far as, like, you know, you know, even, even. Even a friendship. Like, it's like you'd rather have like, a bunch of different acquaintances because they're not close enough to really judge you, you know, but, you know, when you're close to somebody, it's like you're going to be. Maybe judge is too strong of a word for. For people. But it's like, it makes a lot of sense to me. It's like, you know, for you and I, whenever we get together, it's like. And this is just. Just in thoughts and stuff like that, that, like, you know, we present, hey, this is what I think about that. And I'm actually submitting my thoughts to you for judgment. And you're like, I don't know about that. Have you thought about this? And, you know, it's like there's a. But there's something with. That is like, I also know that you have committed yourself to understanding. And so we're. We're kind of on the same journey together. So it's. It almost becomes easier to submit myself, my thoughts and my ideas to you because I know that you're on the same journey as I am, which is to understand and to grow and to kind of weed out those things that are not true.

[17:42] Matt: Does it start to indeed feel more like a relief to submit your thoughts to one who loves you?

[17:50] Michael: Yeah.

[17:50] Matt: Is that what my yoke is Easy? My burden is light means.

[17:56] Michael: That's really good. That's a good correlation. Well, I think that's. So that kind of comes back to another theme that we've talked about a lot is like, what does it mean to be independent? You know, to be under no one and to be my own man or whatever it is. It's like, it's like there's maybe some positive aspects up to. So I'm just going to speak to. Maybe the negative parts is like, if you don't. If you don't submit yourself to others, whether it be in a relationship, a friendship, marriage, whatever it might be, it's like, it's like you actually don't benefit because it's like you are. You are judging to yourself. And, and what is your. What is your, like your ruler that you're measuring yourself against? You know, and I think that's. And kind of something we were talking about earlier too is like, well, we don't really know who we are. We only know who we are relationally. It's very difficult to define ourselves by ourselves. Because I could be like, hey, Matt, I'm a great musician. You're like, Michael, you don't even play an instrument or sing. It's like you might think you're a great musician. Musician, but try

[19:12] Matt: this thing. Sometimes

[19:12] Michael: I don't see. I don't see any movement in that direction. So why would you think you're a great musician?

[19:18] Matt: Yeah,

[19:18] Michael: like, do you have the potential to be a musician? Yeah, probably, you know, but it's like you're basically calling me out that I'm like, I think if you want to be a musician, Michael, then you need to put some time into that, actually.

[19:30] Matt: Yeah.

[19:31] Michael: You know, if you're an artist, to be an artist, to be a. A thinker, then you need to start. You need to commit somewhere and start moving forward in your life and not just philosophize, you know,

[19:48] Matt: I'm reminded of something we were talking about. I don't know if it was last week or the week before, but about how there's only one. At the time I said self justifying thing, but maybe here I want to say self referential thing. You talk about being independent. Like you, what you're saying, you're proposing that you are who you are, right? That you're not in submission to any relationships in your life. You're self referential. And isn't that interesting that God says I am, that I am. And for you to say, well, I am, that I am is to take the position of God in your own life. But back to Carl Jung and his idea of coming to mock the very unlived life that we know we were meant to live. I think I've seen a little bit of that in my own heart lately. And I. I think it's the spirit. I mean, I think it's easy to see how that happens. Maybe it's not easy, I don't know. But just thinking about Instagram and comparing yourselves to other people. But all of this to me is resounding of Cain and Abel. Cain looks at the projection of his ideal, the thing that's working. He wants his life to work like Abel's is working. Abel is the picture of what he wants. And he looks at his own life and he doesn't have it. And he complains to God about it. And God sort of says, well, you could have it if you wanted it, but you're choosing instead to. To take your revenge against it, which is what Cain does and he kills Abel. I think that's sort of the archetype of What Carl Jung is talking about here, for example, like, we talk a lot on this podcast about me being a musician. I'm not really sure I'm a musician anymore.

[22:12] Michael: That's interesting. Yeah,

[22:16] Matt: for all kinds of reasons that I could give you justifications and excuses, maybe that I give myself in my own heart all the time. But the truth of the matter is I don't pick up an instrument very often anymore, and I probably haven't written a new song in a year or two. And what does that make me? I mean, you can go on Spotify and listen to my albums right now, and I still know how to play an instrument. And sitting here in this studio with four, five guitars around, they're always here, available to me. And I could pick one up and play you a song right now, but I'm no longer actively pursuing that. And I've noticed some. I wouldn't say mockery, but some amount of resentment in me when I run across other people like me who are doing it. And I think there's something in me that kind of gets kind of, well, judgmental. Like, yeah, you're not as good. I could do that better, you know, if I ever got off, off my ass, if

[23:21] Michael: I would have gotten a break or something like that. Yeah,

[23:22] Matt: totally. Or like, yeah, this new album's getting how many plays? It's not nearly as good as mine, the one I did 10 years ago. And there's some resentment that builds up in there. And it's. It's so strange that it happens like that because, I mean, I'm not necessarily lying to myself about the fact that I'm not actively making music right now. And so why would I think I had anything to say about someone else? And I think it's because, as Jung says, it's me. I'm not responding to that other person. I'm responding to my own unlived life, to my own inner possibilities, which I am not pursuing. And when I see them projected at me, when Cain sees Abel and sees the thing that he badly wants but doesn't have, rather than to get up and take the risk, in the Cain and Abel story, it's to make the sacrifice to God. He decides that the other way to resolve that tension in him is to get rid of the thing he wants or get rid of the reminder of the thing that he wants. So in my case, it would be something like, well, I'm just not going to go put on records anymore. I'm going to take my guitars down off the wall. I'm going to get rid of it, hide it from my view so I don't feel that pain. And perhaps it seems to me like maybe that that is a greater danger in your midlife because you've tried a lot of things and failed a lot of times. And you're. You get tired easier now. You know, you can't drink very well anymore. You know, it's like if you. If you injure yourself, it's like a pretty big deal. You can't really sleep it off. It's like you sleep kind of the wrong way. Your next day is kind of fucked up, and you're just thinking, what the God. You know, however it is that you might say that to yourself, whether explicitly to God or just, you know, to whatever, like, what the fuck? Why aren't things working for me? You know? And you. I. I can understand how you could start thinking, like, why does elon Musk have $350 billion and I'm 43 with two grand in my bank account? You know, what the. Yeah. Have I not tried hard? Have I not risked enough? And I think the answer is, no, you haven't. You have not tried hard, and you haven't risked enough.

[26:06] Michael: Yeah.

[26:07] Matt: And I think the thing that differentiates someone like Elon Musk from me in one sense is very simple. And it's like, that dude is still risking massive amounts. He's risking more than I'll ever make, and

[26:25] Michael: even proportionally or even percentage wise, because, like, I don't think people, a lot of people understand, like, what he's doing and how much is on the line and all the different aspects. It's like, oh, well, he's got billions of dollars. Of course he can take risk. It's like,

[26:36] Matt: right now.

[26:37] Michael: No, the level of risk that he's taking is like, it's. It's as if he had a hundred dollars. He's risking a hundred dollars now. He has 350. $50 billion. He's risking all $350 billion, you

[26:47] Matt: know, or exactly. Maybe another example is Donald Trump. You know, the guy ran for a second term, 78 years old. He's a billionaire. He's married to a supermodel. He has great kids who all love him. Like, and he really has put his life at risk by running. Why would he do that? And I think I don't really need to know the answer to that. And you might have an answer in your own head, listener. Or you, Michael. Like, you know, and it might be because, well, he's a narcissist and he. You know, he needs the attention and okay. Or someone else might say, well, he's a patriot and really wants to fix the country. And. Okay. My point is that even at 78, he's still going out and risking the most he can risk. And there's something in me in this stage of my life right now where I'm thinking it's not worth the risk. And the problem with that is that what comes after you decide it's not worth the risk is resentment, bitterness, rigidity, and ultimately murderous rage. That's the archetype in the Kane character. And I'm not sure kind of what's worse. It's like the resentment and bitterness is going to poison your life before you even get to making that tragic mistake. And then that tragic mistake is going to change your possibilities forever. Well, because what you did is you killed the possibilities.

[28:28] Michael: Yeah.

[28:29] Matt: You know

[28:30] Michael: what kind of one or two is like, maybe you can answer this. Is like, is there parts of your life that you've done that you need to kind of like, die to, like, the musician? It's like, hey, yeah, when you made that distinction, I was like, okay, I can. I can see that. But, like, I still consider you a musician because that's something that, relationally, I've experienced you as a musician. And so at the same time, as you were talking about, I could also see it's like, oh, well, maybe that was a season of your life that's not a part of this season. So I need to let that go. And that even means comparing. Comparing yourself to other musicians or the stuff that you were talking about. You know, it's like. It's like, what is that? I guess the question is like, does that kind of resonate with you or is that. Does that still. Is that kind of still feel like there's some, like, something that you need to actually accomplish in that area, like you put it down prematurely or that you should actually. That is something you need to pick back up. Does that make sense?

[29:38] Matt: Yeah,

[29:42] Michael: I think the part is like. Is like, are you just not being faithful with what you've been given kind of thing. Idea.

[29:46] Matt: Yeah.

[29:47] Michael: Or is it actually something. No, it's like, actually, no, I actually need to die to this and let that go in this season.

[29:55] Matt: I don't think it's the latter. I think it is the former because. And I think it's that way because. There's a fear in me. There was a little while where I was trying to kind of design my evenings, and the things I really wanted to do was I Wanted to, like every evening. I wanted to journal in my journal. I wanted to play guitar, and I wanted to read a book, and I found myself resisting playing guitar. And I think. Maybe a good example that is relevant in this season of my life in ways that it'll be harder to explain, but an easier way to explain it will be to reference a past season in my life that I also didn't play. And that was directly after my divorce. And I was so angry in that year after the divorce that I was afraid that if I let myself play music because there is a freedom, this is one of the reasons I love to play music. There's a freedom that somehow sometimes cathartic and sometimes just really joyful, but it's a way to let go. And I was afraid that if I picked up my guitar and let go, so much would come out that I would. My guitar. My guitar would not survive the year. And I knew that I needed my guitar to stay with me, and so I avoided it. Something about like, that is happening in this current season of my life. And so I found myself resistant to doing this thing that I genuinely wanted to do. It's harder to explain the reasons for that even to myself right now. But I think that that's how I know that I'm not in the it's a season to let it go phase. It's. It is a battle to be fought. And I think, you know, it's like. Like in Carl Jung's quote, he says the artist who never makes art becomes cynical about those who do. Well, this is the question at hand, right? Well, is the artist who never makes art an artist? What makes him an artist that never makes art? Maybe it's something like, well, he gets his heart broken so many times by the art he makes or by the failure of it, or by being not liked by other people in a way that he thought that making the art would make him liked, that he stops making it. And you can tell that he's still an artist because he's cynical. And to the extent that there's cynicism,

[32:54] Michael: like he still cares or something. He still cares.

[32:56] Matt: Yeah. It's like I'm. If it was something that was like, not in this season, maybe there's some self judgment that needs to be let go. But this isn't that. This is sort of cynicism and resentment, mostly at myself for not doing the thing that I wanted to do, which means that I think the solution to that is to do the thing. As difficult as it is, as much. As much Heartbreak is there's going to be in it, you know, and as far behind as you've gotten by or as rusty as you've gotten for avoiding it for so long.

[33:37] Michael: Because also, it's like when you pick something back up like that, it's like you're. You're probably not as good as the person you're criticizing.

[33:44] Matt: Yeah, you're not as good as you used to be.

[33:46] Michael: And if you put something out there, like, there's almost like that, what if I'm judged in the same way that I'm judging others? Right. Which is hilarious. It's like almost your judgment is like, you're almost just. You're judging yourself. And so it keeps. It keeps you from moving into that space. Because, you know, if, if. Because I see that too, as far as, you know, ideas go, you know, whether it's writing a book or whether it's, you know, starting a business. And. And it's like, if you do that, then people are going to judge you, but it's easier to sit around and

[34:31] Matt: discredit

[34:31] Michael: it. I

[34:31] Matt: think it's worth saying that that judgment is not the kind of judgment that you find in yourself when you're discrediting others. It's not like if you start the business or write the book, people are going to be like, yeah, he sucks. It's the judgment of, are people going to show up to the business? Are people going to buy the book?

[34:47] Michael: Yeah,

[34:49] Matt: I mean, that's the judgment of the market. Right. And that's a terrifying prospect because then you don't even really know what you did wrong. You know, is it. It's like, what. Is it the interior design of the coffee shop? Is it the coffee itself? Is it the, you know,

[35:04] Michael: the baristas, the location, the. Yeah, it's like. Yeah. There's so many variables.

[35:12] Matt: So, yeah. I'm not sure where I really want to take this, but maybe one thing worth noting is that also as good as everything looks everywhere, I think we've adopted this idea that things are not as potentially dire and ugly as a lot of these older stories like Cain and Abel make them out to be. I mean, the Cain and Abel story, which is the first story of the first two humans in the sense of that we know humans because they were born of other humans, but that thing ends in murder. And the consequence of that murder is that Cain goes off and invents weapons of war and becomes a murderous nation. That's pretty dire. And I was saying something to you earlier about. We were talking about spirituality and God. And I don't think that our modern culture behaves as if there is such a thing as Satan or demons. We kind of think, well, that's kind of a fairy tale. Like, God is a fairy tale. And I think, Tell me what you think of this.

[36:27] Michael: Okay, I've got, like, where are you going with this?

[36:30] Matt: It seems to me a safer thing to imagine that God doesn't exist exist than to imagine that the devil doesn't exist. Because, well, if God is good, God is benevolent, then it seems like, well, he's not necessarily going to make our life a living hell over it. But who would make our life a living hell over disbelief? Maybe the Lord of Hell. Like, it seems like we make a grave misstep, a grave mistake, by imagining that things can't be as terrible as they are in the stories. You know, even, like, you go back to, like, old just fairy tales, but like Hansel and Gretel, for example, it's like a pretty terrifying story.

[37:30] Michael: The

[37:31] Matt: Little Mermaid is a pretty terrifying story.

[37:34] Michael: Someone's out to destroy you.

[37:37] Matt: Yeah. Mind, body and soul. I mean, these are kind of horror stories that we're telling our children. And these days, what are the stories? There really aren't bad guys in our children's stories anymore.

[37:54] Michael: Hmm. Oh, interesting. I hadn't really thought about that. Yeah, everyone, especially, you know, you and I's ages. Like, you grow up with all those sort of like, fairy tales of, you know, be careful, there's someone out there to get you. Yeah.

[38:10] Matt: Well,

[38:10] Michael: now it's like, oh, hey, you can be whatever you want to be.

[38:13] Matt: Well, my point is that we've forgotten the darkness, and I think we'd like to imagine that, well, that kind of resentment or what the fuck feeling when I'm seeing all these beautiful people on Instagram doing things that I wish I could do. It's just sort of a trivial thing. And I'm trying to point out that it is not a trivial thing. That there is a real dark road that can go down in your heart, and you can go down that road mostly unaware of it, until all of a sudden you find yourself on the other side of some terrible thing.

[38:42] Michael: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

[38:46] Matt: And I think at least the old fairy tales sort of laid the groundwork for us that there are such things as terrible roads. And these days we want to insist that there's no such thing as a terrible road. Like, criminals are only criminals because of the unjust laws that were imposed against them. And so let's let all the criminals out of the thing. And then, you know, people start dying and getting their shit stolen and we got to justify that. And there's no such thing as a terrible road. You know, we all just need to be less bigoted.

[39:17] Michael: Yeah, well, I think that even that distinction between like, you know, the, the criminal and the person too, it's like, no, what they did was horrible, but they're still a human being.

[39:30] Matt: Right?

[39:31] Michael: And so that's why we have. The laws we have is like, okay, well let's give them a timeout for a period of time so that they can think about it and maybe they can come back to the human that we know that they are. And so they're like, there's. There's sort of like safeguards in place because there is something that is, Oh, shoot, I don't know what the word. I mean, something that is evil or, or. I'm sorry that all the words just like, completely like losing me. But it's like the, just the whole idea of like, no, there is actually right and wrong and we need to punish the wrong, but allow a way for that person to then rise above that wrong. I mean, that's kind of what the justice system in the US is set up for, is like, hey, you know what, what you did, we're going to acknowledge that that is wrong and we're going to attribute some sort of semi arbitrary time frame that we're going to put you in timeout that in the hopes that whenever you're done with that, that you will then transcend the thing that you did. And, and we're trying to now do away with the idea that that was wrong in the first place.

[40:51] Matt: Well, like we said, I think last week that it becomes very difficult. Like you're presupposing that we can agree that there's such a thing as right and wrong and largely what goes in each category. But without the higher order, self justifying, self referential thing, which is God, it becomes very difficult to distinguish what is right and what is wrong. And I think I heard Charlie Kirk say this, that one of the founding fathers wrote that the system of government they devised would only work for a Christian nation. And that seems true to me. I mean, there's a part of me when you were saying that about crime in the person. And you're appealing to, you're appealing to the idea that we've solved for this, right, We've set up a justice system that allows for the separation of the crime and the person and the sanctity of the person and the fact that that person is made in God's image despite the fact they did this terrible thing. So it allows for redemption. Which is a really excellent point. But there's a part of our modern culture right now that's in my, that was bouncing around in my head that wanted to say you sound like a white supremacist. Which is a way of simply mocking the old order and saying, no, that's not the way. That was only the way for white supremacists. Which doesn't have any truth to it. I mean, arguably, I guess. But the point is that what has become fashionable in our post God society is also very iconoclastic. It's very much mock and destroy the old order without any suggestion of what might replace it. And that is a road to the aesthetics of Gotham City and the Batman series.

[43:00] Michael: Yeah, well, I think that's part of the kind of going back to the justice system. It's like, and even along the way of that five year sentence or whatever it might be, you come up for parole, like, hey, we said five years. But can you make a case that something has changed in this year or two years or three years that can justify us allowing you back into society to achieve or to be the person that we think you can be? Because that's what you're saying is with parole and also like end of a sins, hey, we believe that you can be something more than what you are. And you know, I think that's all the way through most relationships is like, you know, hey, I'm in a relationship with you because I believe that you're more than what you think you are. And I'm going to come alongside you and we're going to do this together and know. But if someone is continually like tearing that down and not really believing in the other person, it's just like that that relationship goes nowhere. Like if, if you were just always completely cynical and everything you said was negative towards me and you were not interested in my well being. It's like that relationship's going to deteriorate, you know, over time. It's like basically you're, you're more interested in the death of that relationship than you are in the life of that relationship. And I think that's the, that's the difference between the, the philosopher and, you know, who takes on a philosophy for the other person that's just criticizing is like they don't really want you to, to succeed or to understand. They just want to tear it down and, and, and see death and destruction. You know, basically,

[44:52] Matt: well, as a way to take their revenge on their own perceived failure to become who they could be.

[45:04] Michael: Because it is hard. Because, I mean, I think. I think I see both sides of this in my life as sort of like, sometimes the very people that inspire me are the very people that I criticize the most. You know, it's like. You know, I always say, like. Like Peterson, it's like, there's a lot of things that he says that I'm like, really? Like, wow, that's amazing. But also, like, kind of want to take him off his pedestal a little bit, you know, but, you know, that's also beautiful that I think as you act in the world, you also become that to other people. Like, you become a symbol. And I think that's why you will always, if you try to achieve something or to put yourself out there in the world, that you will be persecuted. And what. The way I. The reason why I use that word, persecuted is because you're putting out in a symbol, a symbol in the world that's very powerful, whether it's through your art, whether it's through your business, whether it's through your philosophy or whatever it might be. Because I think of it, too. I've experienced this with Medici is like, we've put this thing out into the world. And a lot of times people will promote their thing in criticism of what I've done. And. And I've had to learn to like, oh, okay. Part of that. They need that to differentiate themselves and to be. This is how we're different from this. And the only way I can do that is by saying how they're not doing that.

[46:33] Matt: Right.

[46:34] Michael: And I do the same thing. So am I like. Like. But it is interesting. It's like. But I think that's part. Being either a public figure or putting yourself out there in the world is like, you are also going to be the measuring stick, and they're going to show you where you fall short. And probably a lot of things they ridicule you on is probably true, too. And I think that's one thing that also takes us to where we can either stand up under that and continue to produce into the world. Because there's so many things that, you know, the people I admire as well as are critical of, as I see them keep moving further out, you know, further into whatever they're doing. It's also inspiring to me because they're also inviting my criticism almost, you know,

[47:31] Matt: what do you think is the difference between persecution and criticism in that regard?

[47:39] Michael: That's a really good Question.

[47:40] Matt: Because the point is you make it, I take, which is that the more noticeable you make yourself, the more other people will use you as a way to differentiate themselves. That makes sense to me. So there's a natural way in which, well, like we were saying earlier, we live in a culture in which all of our, the way we think about ourselves, who we are as a person, is all very inward and self referential. It's like this is why we have intersectional identity politics. You know, you heard we were just talking about it earlier tonight. Karine John Peer just put a book out and so she's been doing the podcast circuits and on every single one she talks about how she's a black queer, LGBT immigrant woman. And these are all very inward self referential things. But in reality, I believe that we are not really defined by who it is that we think we are. We are defined by our relationships with others. It would be a more powerful thing rather than me if you didn't know my skin color or my sexual orientation. It would be more powerful for me to tell you that I'm a father, that I'm a son and I'm a brother, that I'm a business owner in Austin. You know, all of these things, they reference me in relation to other people. And I think you see that same thing in what you're talking about with, you know, as you have, as the brand of Medici has grown, you stand out more and people see themselves, other coffee shops see themselves in relation to you. And so that means here's how we're the same and here's how we're different. So there's something natural to that criticism because when you say here's how we're different, there's a reason that we're different. We're different because I'm not them, they're not me. We've decided to do things different. We don't agree with this roasting method or these bean selections or this kind of counterflow or whatever it might be. And you can see how those are criticisms because we foundationally, our identities are relational. There's really no way around that. I mean, I think that it's starting to a little bit to be revealed how these, These, this idea of intersectional identity is really, it's falling flat. I think, I think it's starting to feel like you're, well, you're saying all of that, but you're not really saying anything about who you are or what you think or where you stand in relationship to this community or that community or where you stand in relationship to this country or this, you know, school board meeting or whatever. It's like you're telling me all of this irrelevant stuff and we've all been pretending like that was the most relevant stuff for a long time. I think it's. That's starting to lose some of its, its buying power because it's not functional. It isn't functional because that's not what identity is. Identity is relational. And so what's functional is relational.

[51:18] Michael: That's interesting. I'm kind of like, I feel like I'm kind of seeing what you're saying here in a way is like one is almost like these arbitrary things that are. And you keep using the word self referential. Like whether it's skin colors, sex or whatever it might be outside of like, you know, like man, woman, that's an actual thing. And then like the like. But how you like a father or a son is like you like the only reason why you're in that is. Is a relational aspect. Like I'm a son because I have a father. I'm a father because I have a son, you know.

[51:57] Matt: Yep.

[51:58] Michael: I have, I'm a business owner because I have a business. But just to say something like I am white because I'm white.

[52:06] Matt: Right.

[52:08] Michael: It's just

[52:09] Matt: self referential. It's self justifying. I mean, another way to think about it is a common, I think critique to somebody basically saying, listening out all of these rather arbitrary facts about themselves as if that tells us something about what they think might be to say, okay, what do you believe about X, Y or Z issue? You haven't told me anything about that. That seems like more important to the discussion. Right. Because

[52:33] Michael: I think that. Because you're that saying that you have. Everybody of that one thing believes that thing because I am this therefore all these things. It's like, well, I know a lot of people in that category that don't think the same way. So

[52:46] Matt: it's. But the point is that getting to belief is to recognize that there is something outside of you to which you have relationship. My relationship to this issue, this policy, this idea is such. And I can tell you that that's. That is an expression of identity.

[53:06] Michael: That's interesting because it's not like the, it's not because I'm white. I think this way and I think that's where I kind of. Where we've kind of gone to. It's like, oh, you're white, so you think this way or you're black, you think this way or you're you know,

[53:20] Matt: whatever

[53:21] Michael: it might be,

[53:21] Matt: people were saying that explicitly for many, many years.

[53:24] Michael: Yeah,

[53:24] Matt: I don't hear it said as explicitly lately. But, you know, it's obviously an absurd idea. You might coincidentally find that to be true in certain times and for certain groups that you could sort of piece together, but it's certainly not true in the way that I think the left in this country really hoped it would be. They really hoped that they could build a coalition of minorities who all thought the same way. And then you find you. You end up at a place where really absurd things start getting said. Like Joe Biden when he was running, saying, well, if you're not voting for me, you ain't black. So it's like, how can somebody who's black not be black?

[54:11] Michael: Yeah, that's sort of like the danger star.

[54:14] Matt: Yeah. But what he's appealing to is that there's some nature of black, and that nature of blackness would never not vote for Joe Biden. So you must not have that nature. There's a way in which you sort of see this entropic process of like, well, this is that for sure, but this is no longer that, and this can't be this, and this is always going to be this. Except times when it's not, and everything just sort of spreads out into an undefined territory where you can't really get the better of words to make any points anymore. Not sure how we ended up

[54:57] Michael: either, but I mean, it does come back to what we're talking about is, you know, like, you really defined who you are, is defined relationally, you know, and I think it starts with your parents, you know, whether good or bad. You know, I think there's like, a lot. A lot of things are defined by your parents because they're so close to you.

[55:20] Matt: Well, that's an excellent example because, you know, why do we have family names? In a sense, it's like if I meet somebody that I've never met before, it gives me more information to know their last name because I can say, you know, oh, you're this guy's son, or you're this guy's grandson, or this is your sister related to this person. You know, it gives me a bearing on where you are in relation to me. I understand something of the. Of your heritage. You know, if I knew your father, then I already know much about you, in a sense, even though you're not your father.

[56:02] Michael: Yeah,

[56:02] Matt: it's like, oh, you came from him and I knew him. And that gives me a lot of context.

[56:09] Michael: I mean, even if it's. If it's sort of like, well, I'm not my father, it's like, well, that gives you a lot of context, too. It's like, oh, okay, the ideas I have about your dad, you're not that. Okay, well, is that true? But you have context of what you.

[56:27] Matt: Something to work with.

[56:29] Michael: Because we all know inherently that,

[56:32] Matt: yeah, you might say I'm nothing like my father. I'm like, okay, well, now I know what that giant negative space is that, you know, however true that may be, I can sort of move forward with that.

[56:43] Michael: Yeah. And it's maybe like. It's maybe even in a positive way. It's like, I'm not my father. It's like, oh, yeah, your dad was a real dick. You know, and you're trying to differentiate yourself from that. But still, that's a relational identity as far as, like, you know, here's something that I'm not. Like, you know, and I think that's. That's really powerful. I mean, even like, when you say, like, I'm from Texas, like, there's a relational identity to being from Texas. Now, how true it is that you. You. That you, like, assume that identity. That's. That's. That. That also has a lot. It's like, oh, I'm from Texas, but I'm nothing like most Texans. It's like, oh, okay. That helps me understand a little bit more about you, you know?

[57:28] Matt: Yeah. Or you could say, I'm from Texas, and I might say, oh, that's interesting. I don't detect any accent, you know, which I wouldn't say of Texans so much these days. But, you know, you might have somebody from Ireland if they didn't have an Irish accent. You might point that out, and then they might have a story about why that is. Well, yeah, I actually grew up mostly in this other place or whatever. It's just like, there's so much more to work with there, just even conversationally. Whereas it's like, you. So you tell me that you're white. I'm like,

[57:59] Michael: okay,

[58:00] Matt: I'm standing right here.

[58:02] Michael: Yeah. You

[58:03] Matt: know, you tell me that you're heterosexual, obviously,

[58:06] Michael: like, how I like to make love to women. It's like, okay,

[58:08] Matt: okay,

[58:09] Michael: so

[58:10] Matt: why are we talking about this?

[58:11] Michael: Totally. Yeah. Like, I guess it does give. It does give some information. Like it's relational to the sex that you're, like, you know, attracted to or something like that. So.

[58:22] Matt: Well, I mean, I would. I would probably try to make the case that everything is relational. There is no such thing as A non relational thing. I mean, you being white is a relational thing. You're white because your parents were white and they're white because their parents are white. Queen John Pierre is black for the same reason. That's relational.

[58:41] Michael: Yeah.

[58:43] Matt: And obviously sexual orientation is relational. It's about the relationships that you prefer to have. I think the thing is, it just doesn't go. It just tells a person so much less about anything, really, but very meaningful. And that isn't to say that sexuality isn't meaningful or that skin color isn't meaningful. I mean, there's all kinds of meanings there. But coming to make that the primary definition of who we are is to really say nothing of who we are.

[59:15] Michael: It's almost like a pinpoint too, because like, if you were to say, like, um, like, I'm. I'm white, and it's like, okay, well, like Texas white, Maine white, Irish white,

[59:27] Matt: Spanish

[59:27] Michael: Spanish white. You know, it's like it's. It. There's so many different contexts of cultural. White. Yeah,

[59:33] Matt: Jewish white. Is

[59:34] Michael: that

[59:34] Matt: white?

[59:35] Michael: Like there's another

[59:36] Matt: that's not white anymore.

[59:37] Michael: There's a whole other element with. There's a cultural aspect to it and that probably. There's probably even more true whenever it was a little bit more segregated, you know, but it's becoming less and less true. Like, just saying what color you are doesn't really explain culturally who you are, you know, I think that might have been the case maybe in the years past, you know, but I don't feel like I can make that assumption as much now. Maybe you know, even. I mean, even. Even then you couldn't really. But I think there's a little bit more maybe ignorance around that, you know, just because it's like a. Oh, okay, cool. So you're from the south, so you must be a Baptist.

[60:25] Matt: That used to be a pretty fair

[60:26] Michael: assumption. Yeah, it's very true, but it's just not. That's just not a useful assumption anymore, you know, Are you from the. Oh, you're from the Bible Belt, so you must be this way. And it's like. Yeah, I'd never hear that. I never hear those. Like, probably, you know, when I was growing up that that assumption may have been more correct or was becoming less correct, but still prevalent in the culture. You know,

[60:57] Matt: I want to. I want to quickly try to tie this back to what I kind of feel the core of this conversation was, which was surrounding betraying your inner possibilities and the resentment and mockery that comes downstream of that. And then the story of Cain And Abel and how his unwillingness to get up and take the risk in his own life led him to murderous rage to get rid of the symbol of what he felt like he deserved. And I think in this sort of like conversation that we're having after that about identity, there's a way in which what we're really saying here is that for a long time we thought we were being really clear about our identity by stringing together a collection of rather arbitrary words, arbitrary facts about ourselves in most cases, like fairly obvious observable facts that we thought we were actually telling people who we were.

[62:13] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[62:14] Matt: But I think what we were doing is a. Is sort of a lesser version of Cain killing Abel. You know, it's like me talking about being a musician. You know, it hurts me that that's questionable and I have some options about how I can handle that. I can either go fight with it and risk with it, wrestle with it, try to understand it. I can hide myself from it. I can remove all evidence from it from my house, pack my guitars up, put them under beds and in closets. Or maybe I just sell everything.

[62:55] Michael: Bonfire.

[62:56] Matt: Bonfire. That would be the murder version, but it's the middle version that I think is what we're spending a lot of time doing to ourselves in these days, which is to make things very unclear. You know, Cain is in the field and he sees Abel. The representation of what he wants, but he doesn't have. He can either make himself like Abel or he can kill Abel. Both of those resolve the tension. Or maybe he can make Abel very unclear, go over the hill so you can't see him as much. And I think there's a sense in which are what I would say are very weak definitional terms for what constitutes identity that have come to dominate in the west is really a squinting of our eyes and making unclear who we really could be. It's a lessening of ourselves, a purposeful lessening of ourselves. Because who am I? Who could I be? Well, if I'm just a black person or just a white person, then I don't really have to be much more than that. Right? That's a justification that I can use for all kinds of things on one or the other side of the political aisle. But if I say I'm a father, really concerned about the concerns of my 16 year old and 14 year old in Austin, Texas high schools, well, now I have to have something to say. And what if I don't really know what I have to say? And so I think it's a Blurring of my own inner possibilities. To go back to Jung's term, I blur them so I don't really have to live up to them because I can't see them. And that lessens my own inner pain that I'm feeling because I'm failing to live up to those inner possibilities because I can't really compare myself to that which I can't see. And I think the thing that I'm taking away from this is, well, maybe we'll end with that Roosevelt quote.

[65:11] Michael: Oh yeah, that's

[65:12] Matt: great. That's a really good place. It's just to take encouragement that I think when we find ourselves in positions where we're making things unclear or feeling resentment or bitterness, the answer is not to hide ourselves or hide the thing or murder ourselves or murder the thing. It's to go be in relationship with it and fight with it and battle with it. It's to pick up the guitar or it's to make the right sacrifice. It's to get clear and brave about what it is that we think about cultural issues, if that may be the case, or politics, if that may be the case. That is sort of true authenticity rather than the cheap fake authenticity that comes from, you know, just sort of declaring our self referential traits and desires.

[66:13] Michael: Well, before you get, before you hit that. Yeah, I, I started kind of as you're, as you're talking. I, I kind of. This picture started painting in my head was like I just saw this person like on a hill creating something and, and basically holding it up for all to, to, to criticize. You know, and some people saw something in it that they wanted to kill that person. Other people saw something that they were like inspired by and other people wanted to ridicule it. And I think that's the part that, is that we're all meant to sort of like hold something up. And it's like it's, it's, it's not that it's perfect, but it's, it's there to be refined and you're kind of like running the risk of being maybe physically killed, but also just maligned or whatever it is. And also you're going to get some valid criticism for that. And I think that's the bravery that we all need to have is to hold up that thing and allow the sort of the light to shine on it to show us is this the best that it could be

[67:25] Matt: and to be strong enough to withstand the criticism and humble enough to not be done in by the praise.

[67:36] Michael: Yeah, that's true.

[67:41] Matt: Okay. Let's end it with this. Theodore Roosevelt, 1899. I wish to preach not the doctrine of ignoble ease, but the doctrine of the strenuous life, the life of toil and effort, of labor and of strife, that highest form of success which. Which comes not to the man who desires mere easy peace, but to the man who does not shrink from danger, from hardship, or from bitter toil. Cheers to that.

[68:13] Michael: Yeah, definitely. Thanks for coming out, guys.

[68:16] Matt: Yeah. Thanks for being with us tonight. It's a good conversation, Sam.