On brokenness and falling short

[0:20] Matt: you know? Or if it's, like, really there.

[0:21] Michael: Sometimes it's like there's one in the very. It's really far back, and it just kind of, like, reaches forward. It reaches forward and kind of like, sometimes I have to just blindly take tweezers and just kind of, like, grope around and see what. See what I find out.

[0:35] Matt: Well,

[0:36] Michael: old man problems.

[0:37] Matt: Nose hair.

[0:40] Michael: All right

[0:40] Matt: with that? Yeah.

[0:41] Michael: To the shores. Cheers. We got an exciting program for you guys tonight.

[0:49] Matt: I hope so. I'm like. My head feels kind of mute tonight.

[0:57] Michael: Yeah, I'm there with you. We just had, like, a huge change in the weather in Austin. It's like we've gone from hot to warm. Hot to. Then for us in Austin, cold, cold,

[1:13] Matt: cold. Meaning it's currently 65 degrees.

[1:18] Michael: Yeah. That might not make sense to people. Whenever we're used to, like, nights being, like, 90 degrees, it's kind of like it just all of a sudden drops. You're just like, whoa. But I like it because it's kind of like a shock to the system. It's. You need that sort of like. I feel like it's sort of waking me up to the world around me a little bit, you know, just. Things aren't as they always have been because there's some point in the summertime where it kind of just feels like everything almost. Each day kind of seems about the same because it's just hot. And then it just kind of feels that way in general, like mentally, physically, emotional, whatever those are.

[1:59] Matt: I feel like there's a. I tend to, like, right when it first cools off, there's like, a sadness that comes into me. I don't know why or what that is, but it does kind of seem like the first little bit of the colder weather.

[2:16] Michael: What's the sadness associated with?

[2:18] Matt: Maybe just, like, sort of a turn inward. I don't know what it is.

[2:25] Michael: Yeah, well, I got you. I feel that same. I don't think I would describe it as sadness, but more like introspection. When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah. That's kind of where. Because it's always this time of year when I start to really read more and write more and just think in general.

[2:42] Matt: Yeah.

[2:43] Michael: Which is really fun. This is my favorite time of year. So

[2:46] Matt: also, the days get shorter. There's just less sunshine, less vitamin D.

[2:51] Michael: Yeah. It does make me. I. I've kind of missed the heat, honestly. I've I've really enjoyed just that part of it, and I'm thankful for this. Like, I love, this is my favorite time of year. But I, I, I, I do kind of have like a little bit of a morning for the heat and because, like, I have my routine of like, cold plunging,

[3:14] Matt: right.

[3:15] Michael: All this stuff and sweating and it's like, I like that.

[3:19] Matt: Yeah. I've just found myself the last couple of days just thinking about how things are and wondering, do they have to be that way? Why are they, why are things the way that they are in the sense, like kind of mourning the brokenness of life.

[3:38] Michael: Yeah. You were talking about a dinner tonight that kind of. Where are you going with it? I don't think we really explored that, like the, the brokenness of life. Like, what does that mean to you?

[3:54] Matt: Well, I think when you're younger, you have some idea of the way that your life is going to go, some ideal, the way that life should be. And you, I think, imagine life to be sort of a constant leveling up, you know, because that's the way that your childhood is. You learn to walk, then you learn to talk, then you learn to run, and you learn to ride a bike, and then you go to school and you graduate and you go to the next school and then, you know, the next school and the next school, then you get a job and then you get a promotion and then you get married and then you get have kids. And that's, you know, the way that it's supposed to go. Right. And I think, well, for one thing, it almost never goes that way for anybody. And even when it does, it's so full of so many things that are just unpredictable. And, you know, in my own case, I look around at my life and in many ways my life is better than I could have imagined. But it also doesn't match the picture of the what I feel like it should be. And that disconnect. There's a brokenness in it. I mean, even in my own family, you know, I'm divorced. I never imagined my family breaking up and only seeing my kids half the time. And that's a brokenness. Didn't imagine my dad dying when I was in my 40s. He was in his 60s. There's a brokenness to that. When I think about my mom at home, alone in their house in another city, feels like brokenness to me, you know, or even just the relationship dynamics that I have with people close to me in my life, my youngest daughter's mother, is a brokenness with us. And I mourn that. I wish it looked different.

[5:43] Michael: Yeah.

[5:44] Matt: And it's not like all of those thoughts aren't going through my head when it's hot outside. But there's something about the introspective inward turn where you think it's like, what is this? Why are things this way? And what should change? What can I change?

[6:00] Michael: Yeah. It's like, what do you have control over? And what is kind of just life, too?

[6:06] Matt: Yeah. Well, when the. When the ideal does not manifest, it's like, do you fight to bend everything toward the ideal, or do you have to let some things go in order to move into an uncharted territory and rediscover some ideal?

[6:28] Michael: Yeah. I don't know how to paint the picture, but in. In how you phrase that, I kind of, like, had these two people, like, I think of extremes, the pessimist and the optimist, you know, the. The one that sees all things as sort of like, oh, but you know what? Tomorrow is going to be a better day. Tomorrow's gonna be a better day. And then the pessimist is like, every day is horrible and bad. You just have to suffer through it. That's probably too generalist. But. But is there something about that sort of you kind of need hope, something to strive towards? Like, I think if you don't have something to strive towards, then there is sort of you. You do get lost in the hopelessness and the pessimism.

[7:14] Matt: Right.

[7:14] Michael: But if it's not grounded in reality and, you know, kind of like, shit happens, you know, that's part of life, and you don't have control over a lot of that. It's like, in some regard, I've seen a lot of people talk about how you don't have control over how people treat you, but you have control over how you treat others. And so I think that's the part that's sometimes difficult to find and figure out. It's like, what part do I play in this? And what part do I have control over? And the rest you kind of have to let go. But I think there's also. There has to be a hope in it. Kind of like we were talking about at dinner, you know? You know, the. We're just talking about how, like, in Christianity, you know, there's this whole idea of, like, you know, love the person, hate the sinner. You know, that's not a Bible verse. It's just kind of, like. Kind of covers, like, a lot of different ideas within Christianity. And there's something about that, even in relationships where you Know, you cannot like somebody, but you can still see the, the beauty in that person. And they might, they might have. Their actions might be something that you are not pleased with, but you still have to see the, the beauty inside each, each individual, you know, and I think that's, that's something that's hard to do, but, you know, that, that's definitely within the, the framework of, you know, what kind of Christ talked about. And I think that's, I think that's something that makes Christianity, specifically, really, really beautiful, is that, you know, even if you live in a, under a government or regime that you disagree with, you know, there's certain parts of that you have to kind of work from the inside out, not just attack the outside and, and with hate and vengeance or, and there's something about, you know, seeing the beauty in people and stuff. So I don't know. I think that's why it's like you can't lose sight of hope in individuals and also in the world around you, or else you do kind of get into a downward spiral of hopelessness, and

[9:36] Matt: hopelessness breeds more hopelessness. How do you regain hope if you've lost it?

[9:50] Michael: I think it's a, that's a really tough question because I think it's very situational. Like, there's, there's little things in my life that remind me of hope. You know, this, like, Alison has this thing with butterflies and know every time. Well, not every time, but when she sees a butterfly, a lot of times, it just reminds her of God. And so it's a. It. So it just kind of like gives her perspective. And so now it's like every time I see a butterfly, I, I, I have that same sort of experience because of her, you know?

[10:29] Matt: Yeah,

[10:30] Michael: it's like just a reminder or, or like the, the verse that talks about, you know, you see all those lilies in the field and God clothes them. It's like, will he not do the same for you? And just he feeds the birds? And then, you know, it's like there's all these things that fruit naturally grows on trees. It's like all the sustenance around us that's provided. And it's like, well, what is possible? Like, what am I missing? Is it not just out there, just right there for the taking? For the most part, you know? Yeah, but I'm just not, I'm just so stuck at, like, my eyes are on the ground, looking at the ground. I'm not looking up

[11:13] Matt: stupidly and blindly not looking to see what's there.

[11:17] Michael: Yeah,

[11:19] Matt: I think your answer is a good one. If. If you've lost hope, maybe one good way to regain it is to find it in other people, to cling to people that you love and admire. And when they have exhibit some hope, what is it like? Ask them why. Ask them where their hope comes from. And perhaps hope is something which is shared. It's not individual

[11:51] Michael: or even, like, there's a part of it, even claiming it for yourself, because I feel like that's what I do with. There's a lot of things that Alison does that I find it changes her in her countenance and just kind of inside it changes her.

[12:07] Matt: The things she does.

[12:09] Michael: Yeah, like the butterfly thing or, you know, her artwork or whatever it is. It's like, those things also help me to see something different. Or when my kids, like, come give me a hug or, you know, just think of, like, Hannah. Like, she's always. She just always goes out of her way to say, hey, dad, how was your day? Like, almost every day, you know, And I'm just like, why do you do that?

[12:42] Matt: Because she's your daughter.

[12:43] Michael: Yeah, but the thing is, like, no one's telling you to do that. And I just.

[12:50] Matt: She just wants to know.

[12:51] Michael: Yeah, she just wants to know, how was your day? And maybe some of it is just. She wants connection with me, and that's one way she can have connection with me. But it doesn't really matter. It's just like she. She's reaching out or, you know, inviting me in either circumstance, you know,

[13:07] Matt: that just makes me think, like, I feel like I've been spending, gosh, at least five years trying to do these mental gymnastics to try to understand people and their behavior, especially, like, with COVID and racism and politics. And I feel like I'm always trying to, like, reverse engineer people's hidden objectives and hidden incentives. And, like, when you're saying this, you actually mean this and, oh, that you think this means that and this. And I'm, like, working on this crazy hard math problem. But then Hannah. Your story about Hannah just reminds me that, like, no, sometimes people just want to know. It's like, why are you doing that? Just because I wanted to know. It can be so much simpler.

[13:57] Michael: Well, it's almost like there's a sense of the way you just said all those things is we've kind of come out of an abusive relationship with the world recently because it's like, you know, everyone's questioning your motives and, like, o, no, you're doing that because you're a racist or you

[14:16] Matt: were talking earlier about the COVID years. Beating the benevolence out of you.

[14:19] Michael: Totally. It's like, I don't want to be good anymore. I don't want to be nice to people anymore. Yeah,

[14:26] Matt: it's a good analogy. Coming out of an abusive relationship. It's like you're hypervigilant. You assume everything has a hidden meaning,

[14:38] Michael: and you're not sure what if what you're doing, like, you, you. You meant it as. As something like, good and sort of pure, you know, however pure that could be. And then you're like, oh, no. But could they perceive it like this or that or could I. You know, it's like, because you're trying to do something nice and good, and then. And then you're just, like, thinking of all the ways that it could be perceived the wrong way.

[15:01] Matt: Yeah.

[15:03] Michael: And you're like, ah, fuck it. I'm not gonna do this. It's too complicated.

[15:07] Matt: Gosh, all that just makes me so hungry for the innocence of youthful children and even just for relationship in my life where I don't have to be hyper vigilant or wonder what the hidden meaning of things are. I can just take someone at their word. And I have a lot of that in my life. I have that in you and Alison and my mom and. And those are very comfortable relationships.

[15:40] Michael: Mean what you say, say what you mean and mean what you say. Yeah, yeah, that's hard. It's

[15:47] Matt: something really deep about that. I feel like I just identified, like, a point of stress inside of me that I wasn't really aware of.

[15:57] Michael: Well, it's. It's difficult because, I mean, like, there's a part. Because when you want to do the best for people and you. And you want to. Your. Your intentions to be clear, it's like there is a certain amount of, like, self questioning or just to make. Just to kind of like, make sure you're actually in the right place, you know? And I think that's. And I think that's also. I mean, people also do that for us, but once it gets into an unhealthy place, as far as it's like, there's almost nothing you can do that is. I don't know. I'm trying to stay away from the word pure. But, like, it's. Because I don't think. I mean, I don't think really anything is necessarily pure other than maybe like, children, because they just are just doing the thing.

[16:58] Matt: Yeah. When I look at my one and a half year old and she's so. She's like, the happiest person I've ever met. And I watch her, and it makes me happy. And I also wonder. I'm like, where is that happiness coming from? What do you have to be happy about, really? You know,

[17:13] Michael: poop your pants. You.

[17:17] Matt: And I wonder if, you know, there's an inherent happiness to life. Like, being alive is a wonderful thing. The world is a wonderful place. Children see that. And I think we grow out of it. We stop seeing it, and we wonder whether or not that is wrong, you know, that the world isn't a wonderful place, and it's not wonderful to be alive because it doesn't feel wonderful all the time anymore. You know, I've got responsibilities. I've got bills. I've got to fight with this person that I got to resolve, and I've got, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[17:52] Michael: Yeah. It's like, almost, because I think sometimes we. We. We tend to think those people are naive. You know, those, like, the childlike people that have. They just seem naive, and.

[18:06] Matt: Well, there is naivety to

[18:07] Michael: it.

[18:08] Matt: I don't think that's wrong.

[18:09] Michael: Yeah.

[18:10] Matt: And I don't think that we should be acting like children.

[18:13] Michael: Mm.

[18:14] Matt: But I do think that there is a. There is a. Like, a layer to life that is obvious to children that we forget about. Like you were saying earlier, like, you. You kind of just walk around with your head down, just not looking for is the thing that you need just right there, right in front of you. But you stopped looking.

[18:33] Michael: Yeah.

[18:33] Matt: I feel like we stopped looking at the wonder of life as we get older. A lot of us do.

[18:41] Michael: Again, I'm thinking of the parable of like. Or. I don't know, the show's parable is more of a saying, like, to be innocent as lambs and wise as serpents. And I think sometimes we forget the innocent part of that and not having that tension between the two.

[18:59] Matt: Is that what it is? Innocent as lambs.

[19:02] Michael: Innocent as lambs and wisest serpents. Because there's a certain part that's like, you're not. It. It's like, you. You do need to be wise and. And to look ahead and to weigh people's motives and stuff. There's something that's. That's very wise in that. But at the same time, there's a childlikeness that we do need to preserve as far as. Because I think that's where the. That's where the joy is. And. Sorry, I'm like. I'm, like, quoting all sorts of Bible verses tonight. But I think even like, when Jesus talks to the children, he's like, you know, that he tells his disciples to be like these children who come to him in wonderment and excitement and just pure joy.

[19:50] Matt: I know that. I don't think you've watched that show, the Chosen,

[19:57] Michael: just like a couple episodes of it. Yeah,

[20:02] Matt: there's a great sort of series of scenes. When it's before, I think Jesus has sort of come out and picked his disciples. And there's a series of scenes where he's kind of camping out and these group of children kind of discover him and they start coming every day. They ask him all these questions, but they're asking questions like kids ask. They're like, what's your favorite food? Things like that. And in a sense, I take that to mean, like, they're willing to ask me the question, the actual questions that they have. Whereas when we get older, we stop asking the actual questions that we have, and we, you know, we lay over sub questions or meta questions to sort of COVID up or hide.

[20:48] Michael: Disguise. Yeah,

[20:49] Matt: disguise. What it is that we really want to know, you know, maybe because we've been hurt in the past or rejected in the past. And so we. We tease it rather than being direct. You know, it's like if you're trying to find out if somebody who does somebody likes you, you like somebody, you try and find out if they like you, you might not just ask them directly. You'll try to figure it out another way. Because the no would be really hurtful. And you sort of imagine to yourself, well, if I don't hear the no, but I figure out the answer, I don't really have to admit it to myself. And I think we do that kind of stuff all the time with all kinds of different people. But kids don't do that. They just ask. And I think, you know, that's it. Another thing Jesus says is, if you ask anything of God in my name, it will be given to you. And then he says, basically, I've been. He's talking to the disciples. He says, I've been telling you this, and yet none of y' all have asked me for anything. And he's kind of frustrated about it. At least that's the way I read it. He's like, you're not asking me anything. I feel like that's kind of the heart of God right there. When he says, like, the children, he's like, they'll ask me their questions. I want you to ask me your questions. But you're afraid, I guess, and.

[22:11] Michael: Yeah.

[22:12] Matt: Or unbelieving.

[22:14] Michael: Well, I think there's something about just asking the question in general, because I think sometimes when we actually ask the questions that are on our hearts or on our minds, I think we even sometimes find out that that's not really what I want. But if we're afraid to ask the question, it's like we actually never get to that. I think that's part of the. I think part of the problem is that you just kind of bury the. I love how you said, like, these meta questions, these sidequest questions, you know, it's like. But if you don't ask the question that's on your heart, on your mind, then it really. You just never. You never get to it. You might even not never find out that that's not the question you actually are pursuing, you know? Yeah, I think there's a lot in there, because I think that's something that over the many years, I've kind of seen. I've seen that happen in my life, where a lot of the times the question I'm asking is not the question I'm really wanting to know, and it takes me asking the question and pursuing it to actually get to the question that I'm asking.

[23:31] Matt: It's amazing to me how hidden from ourselves we are, how we don't know ourselves very well, because that's exactly the way that it is. You have to start with the questions that you think you have, and then you find out that those really aren't the real questions that you had. You had deeper ones that you hadn't articulated to yourself. I mean, I think that something like that, like the real questions that you have, it's like you have to meet. That you have to discover it. Just like you discover a new friend. You know, all of a sudden you meet them at the bar or at the grocery store or at the ballpark or whatever. You discover them, you meet them. Our questions are like that.

[24:18] Michael: I wonder if. Because we're, you know, as you get older and you've asked all these questions and then you start to. To realize, like, oh, man, if I start asking these questions, it means a lot of work and a lot of death, you know, Because I think a lot of times when we ask the questions, there's also. There's also something required of us. And. And I think the only way to really explain it is death. It's like you kind of have to. In order to really get to the answers that we're looking for. It's like sometimes there's quite a bit of us that has to die. To get there,

[24:59] Matt: I had a relationship in my life that I won't say more about just so as to not reveal, but this person at some point struggled with whether or not one of their parents loved them. And I watched them. I'm using them just to not give away the gender, but I watched them struggle with that and at some point made a conscious decision to stop struggling with that. Because if the answer was no, life as they knew it was inexorably changed. At least that's the way it felt. So I think we can stop pursuing our questions too, once we get near enough. That sort of hot fire of what if it is not the way that I want it to be or the way that I think it is, and how much of my reality will be torn down by that revelation?

[26:02] Michael: Yeah, that's so fascinating. Like, I would say, like, my. My siblings experience of my parents are so different from mine. I feel like they share more similar than I do. You know, it's like I don't really have like a. I don't feel very like, negative towards my parents. And you know, it's like, like I feel like I probably have. Of my siblings probably had the best relationship with. With my dad than the other two did, you know, and, and it's interesting because, like, you know, sometimes I'm. I'm always wondering, like, again, I'm painting this in a very bleak and like, very extreme. It's like, is my dad the villain or the saint? And obviously that the answer is like, yes, both in some form or fashion, you know, and, and so some of the question is, is like, you know, it's like, how much of a villain was he? You know, and, and I. Is that something I want to know? And I don't, I don't know. It's like, I don't. I don't think any, any of the. Because there's a lot of stuff I knew like. Like he cheated on my mom when in high school. And I think I might have been the only one to know that for a long, long time. But it's like I didn't. I didn't make me love my dad less. You know, I didn't see him as less. I don't know why that is. I don't know if that makes sense, but it sort of made sense to me. There was something. It's sometimes hard to me piece together, like what, what how I thought and when I thought that, you know, but post that going crazy side of things, it's like, it's. It always all that Kind of made sense to me. It's like, wow, we are all villains, you know? Oh, and also, just working for TDCJ and just seeing these kids I'm sitting in interviews with that are like, murderers, rapists,

[28:13] Matt: Department of Criminal Justice.

[28:14] Michael: Yeah. I was an auditor there, and. And just sat in, like, hundreds of interviews like this, and. And I was like, this guy's no different from me. Like, he made a bad decision. I mean, some. Some of these kids or guys were like, real shitheads. And, like, you don't. I would not let them date kind of thing. But it's like. But I also just saw this, like, humanity and then that, like, I could have made some of those decisions. You know, I don't know what kept me from making those decisions. Like, that was kind of, like, a real thought that. That kind of hit me in that. So it's like, you know, but. So I. I don't know if, like, again, pursuing some of those questions, like, is it always a negative not to pursue the question? Or some things are just letter left, better left untouched, or, you know, I don't know the answer to that.

[29:12] Matt: Well, I want to say that it's always best to pursue the questions.

[29:16] Michael: However. So many.

[29:17] Matt: However. Yeah, there's so many. Well. And ultimately, the truth of life is a mystery. Mm. And it seems. Seems like there's something. Something to the fact that you can't look at the face of God without dying. Like, yes, it's. Yes, you should ask your questions, and you should pursue the real questions, but also recognize that you are human, and you might not be able to bear the weight of that, because some of the consequences of knowing the truth might kill you. Looking at the face of God might kill you. There was a. When I was going through my divorce, things were getting really, really bad and really bad for me physically. I was losing a lot of weight. I wasn't doing well. And my mom called me one day, and she said, I just wanted to tell you that I feel like dad and I raised you and taught you that you should love your wife the way that Christ loves the church. But I called to tell you that you are not Christ. And I felt simultaneously relieved and also really sad. And I had to admit to myself that there were some things I wasn't strong enough to do because I'm not Christ. Christ is the ideal, and I will not live up to the ideal. I mean, that's one of those hard. Those hard truths that spelled out very plainly in the Bible, and yet it's like a revelation every time I stumble upon it. It's like, oh, right, I want the ideal, but I will never live up to it. That book told me that. But I still want it, you know?

[31:32] Michael: Yeah, well, there is that. I mean, it's like we're called to be, like Christ, you know, and then there's a whole part that. That is that you will always fall short.

[31:41] Matt: Yeah.

[31:42] Michael: And I think that is. That's. That is a hard sort of paradox to. To wrap your head around, you know?

[31:47] Matt: Yeah, well. And so I. I have. I used to, in the early years after my divorce, like, wonder how I fell short. Think a lot about that. I think that's a worthy thing to think about. That doesn't change the fact that I fell short. And if I, you know, maybe if I had been more aware of this or that, things would have gone down differently, but it doesn't change the fact that there are some things I'm not strong enough for. Like, life is going to go. You're going to encounter things that you don't want to look at, things that maybe if you look at change everything. And maybe you're not strong enough for everything to change. So I think. I understand that you might not know exactly how this fits, but my. My dad, who was a therapist, he used to say to me that you can't change anyone who doesn't want to be changed or who isn't asking to be changed. You can't make anybody look at anything that they don't want to see. It's a strange part of reality.

[33:09] Michael: Yeah. I think that's a hard thing to. Especially like when you're talking about close relationships that. Because you can always. Almost always find how you are falling short in that relationship. There's almost like no into. Right into that. But then there's also this reality is like you. There's. You can't control the other person. So it's like at some point that relationship becomes unhealthy enough that you need to leave that relationship.

[33:43] Matt: Yeah.

[33:43] Michael: Like, there's. There is no salvaging it. And. And that's hard. I think some people give up on relations too soon, you know, and some people stay in relationships too long. So I can see that, and that makes a lot of sense to me. But that place in between, I think that's the most difficult place to be is when you're fighting for something and knowing when to. I don't know if the right words give up or to sacrifice it. However you want to say,

[34:18] Matt: yeah, change the rules of the game. I don't know. So it occurs to me that we ask these questions, like, well, should you pursue all the questions? Or, how do you know when is the right time to give up? Or whatever? And I'm not sure that there's a right answer to these things. I think it's, well, you have to live it out.

[34:45] Michael: Yeah,

[34:45] Matt: you have to live it out. And maybe you'll learn some things in hindsight and that'll change the way you live going forward. It isn't like, Maybe it is like this. I don't know, like, there's a way. There's a way to live that we all fall short of. And if we could only not fall short of it, things would get better. Maybe that is part of the proposition of the Bible. But the answer to that proposition is, yeah, but none can. None cannot fall short. That was a double negative for there. And so, well, what then? We're fucked up. Except God sacrifices himself for us and leaves us in this kind of crazy conundrum of, well, what do I do now? If I'm truly redeemed, then doesn't it seem like nonsense then to wonder about, well, what's the right and wrong thing to do? Doesn't Paul grapple with that?

[36:05] Michael: Yeah, yeah, basically, like he says, like, I do understand what I do, for what I want to do, I do not do. But what. I hate this I do. And it's like that he's like, just in Romans, I think it's eight, seven. And he's just, like, struggling with this whole conundrum that's going on inside of him. But I think that's part of it is like. Is like, we have to participate in that. Because I think if we don't participate in it, we don't understand the depth of, you know, what Christ did as well as, like, the depth of what it means to be human.

[36:42] Matt: Yeah,

[36:42] Michael: it's like,

[36:43] Matt: well, because we don't understand ourselves very well and we're not our own master. Like, I do things I don't want to do all the time and don't do things I want to do all the time. Who is in charge here, you know?

[36:59] Michael: Yeah.

[37:00] Matt: And I like your word. Participate. We have to participate in. Or we get to. We are invited to participate in that mystery.

[37:11] Michael: Yeah.

[37:12] Matt: And I think that's the living of it out. And I think every time that we encounter, you know, my example of my divorce and my mom telling me that I'm not Christ, you know, that sticks out. I think we have those kinds of things come up in us all the time. But I think in the context of Christ. And the New Testament, I'm able to look at that and say, well, did I choose the right time? Could I have held on longer? Should I have. Was it wrong to get divorced? Should I have done more to save the marriage? I think that there is a piece offered to me to say, Not that it doesn't matter, but that you recognized you weren't strong enough to do it, and I forgive you.

[38:16] Michael: Well, I would say, even from an outside perspective, I would say, like, you fought the good fight.

[38:23] Matt: I think I did.

[38:24] Michael: Like I said, from. From what I saw is like. Is like. It's like you fought for your marriage Even. Even when I saw being rejected on the other side of things. And. And there's a point where you had to just sort of like, die to that.

[38:42] Matt: Yeah.

[38:42] Michael: And just like, let it go. So I don't feel like you. I don't feel like you. What do you call it? I don't know. Rejected. That. Rejected the marriage. It's more of like you had to let it go. Like, it was almost like it was asked of you to let it go. And I feel like I've seen. I've seen the other side of this on both sides of it, where, you know, someone who just totally gives up on it. Like, almost without. Like, there's like a little. Little push and like, oh, I'm done with this. Yeah, you just. You got. You got nudged. Like, that's not like, you don't. You don't get out of the basketball game because somebody pushed you. Like, you get back in there and you play, you know.

[39:33] Matt: Yeah. Well, talking earlier about asking meta questions and sub questions and hiding your real questions or your real desires, I think there was a lot of that going on, a lot of opposite meanings happening. But just. I want to bring it back to the point, though, because it's not about whether or not I did the right

[39:54] Michael: or

[39:54] Matt: wrong

[39:54] Michael: thing.

[39:54] Matt: It's about. It's about the fact that we all fall short and that I can have peace about that because Christ died and rose again. How exactly that works, I don't really know. But I know that in that moment when I admitted that there were some things I wasn't strong enough for, I received rest and peace because it was like I was admitting the truth. Doesn't really matter how I feel about the truth. It doesn't matter in which way I might have sinned or done the wrong thing. It doesn't really matter in which way I fell short. It just matters that I fell short and that that has been redeemed, even though I can't see it. And it doesn't feel that way to me. It's like it feels, you know, we started this whole thing with me talking about living in a broken world. That's what it feels like. Excuse me, but this, you know, if I sort of take it, this conversation so far, and whole things aren't necessarily as complicated as we make them out to be and to be and to remember. You know, it's like when Hannah says to you, how was your day? Just because she wants to know. You know, to be like a child is to also admit that, like, I need to be. I need to be forgiven, I need to be cared for, I need to be redeemed. Especially as I think as a man in Western society we. I know. I feel like I have this tendency to feel like it's really important that I'm, you know, above reproach and I take care of all of my responsibilities and I don't show too much of my emotion and I have a stoicism and a diplomatic dependability and a security to me. And, you know, it's like I want to live in such a way that it's like I get up before my kids do so that they're, you know, they wake up into a home where I'm ready to take care of them or I'm ready to cook for them. You know, I put them to bed and I go to bed after them. Not so much anymore with my teenagers, but

[42:22] Michael: totally.

[42:24] Matt: But it's so often that I can feel like I have to, like. The most important thing is that I maintain that. That level of

[42:36] Michael: being above reproach.

[42:37] Matt: Yeah. When inside I'm totally falling apart.

[42:44] Michael: Well, I think, again, I think that's the hard thing about all this is like, all the things you're talking about are good, you know.

[42:52] Matt: Yeah.

[42:53] Michael: To be above reproach. But I think it's. It's hard when it becomes more. You kind of tend towards more of a self righteousness, you know, you find your value in being above reproach. And I think that's. I think that's the danger because I'm the same. I mean, everything you just said, I'm the same way. Like, I try to do all these things to, you know, Tom. You know, I get up early, get going, you know, get to the store before anyone else gets there. Just so that, you know, again, there's, there's, there's. I see. I see two people in my head whenever I. When I Look at this. You know, one is I enjoy it and I love my mornings and you know, and, and, and then the other side is more of like, okay. I also have to show people that by example, you know, by being there in and being dependable and all that kind of stuff that they can trust me, you know. So I think it's hard because I feel like I kind of teeter totter between those two things. It's. One is more of the self righteousness of, you know, being dependable versus like the humility in the, and the systems that I put in place so that I can be reliable, you know, and it's, I think that's it kind of like I just see like over my lifetime like those things oscillating back and forth, you know, as far as like the self righteousness of my actions versus the like humility. The reason why I do these things is so that I can actually be there and show up and be dependable.

[44:43] Matt: I think I'm getting a little bit caught up in this thought, but I think, but the point I'm trying to make is that as much as I try, I'm never going to be above reproach and that maybe sometimes it's okay to say, yeah, I can't do that this time

[45:03] Michael: totally.

[45:06] Matt: And to not attach my self worth to an impossible goal, but attach my self worth really to Christ. Because that is the only solution if I admit that the goal is impossible.

[45:25] Michael: Yeah, because I think a lot of times what we're talking about right now is also just the law in general. Like I find my righteousness and by accomplishing the law, by being above reproach, by being, making the right sacrifices, by doing the things right, it's like, well, by doing all these things therefore I've almost, I've earned that. And if you do that for long enough, you experience a certain death, that all the joy that's in those things is no longer there. Like the very thing that brought you joy, like for me it's getting up early and doing these things. I get a real joy from that. But all of a sudden that joy goes away and I'm like, what the fuck happened? It's because I'm no longer, I'm doing this because it's the law. I'm trying to appease or to fulfill the law. And it's no longer something that's coming out of the joy that I get to do that thing. And I think that's the part where kind of come back to what you said is like we have to acknowledge that we just. We just fall short, and there's no matter of things that I can do or follow, that I can. That I can. Be worthy. I guess that's not the right word. Well, it's like, who am I trying to prove? What am I trying to prove? It's like, to who and what? It's like I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm reliable. And by doing certain things, am I trying to prove that to my staff? Am I trying to prove that to other people? And I think if you do that long enough, you just start to die inside. I've experienced that. You know, there's something about, like, oh, wow, I can never fulfill that. And something like you just said, too, is like, I think you said something about how once I realized I couldn't, like, meet that standard, it was almost like a relief.

[47:48] Matt: Yeah.

[47:48] Michael: How did you say that?

[47:49] Matt: I don't remember. Something like that.

[47:51] Michael: Yeah.

[47:52] Matt: It's just a relief to acknowledge reality, I think, because the unreality is the thinking. You can live up to the perfect standard. You can live up to the law. And when we're using the word law, we're not talking about, like,

[48:07] Michael: yeah,

[48:09] Matt: criminal law in the United States.

[48:10] Michael: 30 miles per hour and a 35 and a 30 mile.

[48:15] Matt: But even then, I think that's probably the same. That's probably applies. I was listening. I think it was Elon Musk when. Maybe when he was part of the DOGE thing, but he was talking about. Or maybe it was some other lawyer who's saying that basically, with the laws currently on the books in the United States, every single American is guilty of a crime.

[48:35] Michael: Oh, totally.

[48:37] Matt: We just don't pursue it.

[48:38] Michael: Yeah, it's the same thing with the health code. Like, almost no restaurant anywhere can pass the health code,

[48:44] Matt: Right?

[48:45] Michael: Well, it's kind of that way, in a way, because it's like, it gives them the leeway to be able to, like, hey, no, this place is actually dirty. Like, it has. You have to use, like, some sort of, you know.

[48:56] Matt: Well, and also, wouldn't you rather your restaurants be trying to live up to an impossible standard rather than an attainable standard?

[49:02] Michael: Yeah.

[49:05] Matt: Maybe it's the same with a person, too. The person who tries to live up to the impossible standard is you want to be around that person than somebody who has no standard at all. But the thing that we're driving at is that you spend long enough trying to live up to an impossible standard, and there's some catastrophes waiting for you there. One of which is that it can hollow you out. If you believe you can, you can. What is it? Well, I think the way you put it is like if you stop seeing the function of that and the joy of that and you see only the sort of cold hard adherence to it or the Pharisee self righteousness of it, both of those things hollow you out.

[50:00] Michael: Yeah,

[50:12] Matt: It's an interesting conversation because I feel like this concept is. Well, it's not just a concept. It's like the concept, it's like it kind of touches on everything in a strange way.

[50:29] Michael: Yeah, I mean I'm kind of like, I've kind of left more to like a meditative right now. I'm like, oh wait, do we have to talk right now? I just kind of want to like meditate on this right now. No, I really, I like, I like this. It really is kind of like because there's, there is no really right answer. It's something that you have to almost like be in meditation and prayer in because so much of the time we just don't know where we stand. And I think what we talked about earlier is like you have to participate in this and you're, you're not going to get it right, but part of it is, is just participating, you know, walking forward and, and, and making the mistakes. I think that's what, I think that's what the beautiful thing about like, like kind of what Jesus talks about is just like, you know, like you go into, to be in the world, but not of the world. And there's this part that's just like you're trying to learn what the kingdom of heaven is. And the more that you, you walk towards that, the more you bring it to earth. And I think that's the part that's the beautiful thing. Like, because even kind of like you see that in Jesus's life, like he brings the kingdom of heaven to earth and people see things differently through him. I mean it's for me too. It's like whenever I lose focus and I start seeing things again through his eyes, it's like the world looks different. And you know, I've studied a lot of different religions and philosophies and you know, one of the things that really was very difficult for me in the early years when I was like studying a lot of these things is like I would try on these philosophies and these religions, like what does it mean to live this way? And so I would try to think and live in the way of whatever that philosophy or religion was and it made it really difficult. I think Christianity was the only one that when I tried it on, it made the most sense. Because I mean, in Islam it's like you, it's like, you know, you basically do these certain things, pray five times a day, you know, lots of do's and don'ts. And it's like you might get to heaven, but it's very rules based.

[52:54] Matt: Yeah.

[52:55] Michael: You know, you know, Judaism is more in the line of Christianity. So it's like you kind of see this sort of like, you know, it makes the point of like, here's the law. But the law is there to show you that you fall short. You know, it has that same same part. And Christianity kind of comes in and kind of finishes it off, you know. Yeah. You know, and we've talked about a lot of the other, like even just different philosophies. Like, you know, when you talk about Hume, like, Hume was pretty rigorous philosopher and I really liked him, but even he says, like, you know, among your philosophy, still be still a man. Because you're basically saying is like, all the way things I'm talking about and the way that I'm seeing things, it's not the way to live. Like, you can't like, because this whole thing was like, how do I experience red? Like, like red here now? Well, I only experience red at red. Like

[53:49] Matt: the color.

[53:50] Michael: Yeah, the color.

[53:50] Matt: Yeah.

[53:51] Michael: And it's like. And that was, that was a really difficult thing for him to do is like, you know, how do you experience things? And it's like, you know, you experience it at that moment, but even at that moment you don't experience it. And he's like, but you know, in all this stuff, it's like, you still have to live. Like,

[54:06] Matt: kind of reminds me of Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. The main character basically like goes insane trying to figure out what quality is. And asking the question, what is quality? What is of quality? And he is so sort of intellectual about it and philosophical about it. It just drives him mad. Maybe that's one of the questions. Those types of questions are the face of God types of questions. It's like, it might kill you. And so maybe you need to remember to be an imperfect human. A sort of tangent analogy that I was thinking of is like, I have a tendency toward, would you say. Like fine motor skill, physical skills. Like, I was a gymnast when I was younger. I am a musician now. I'm drawn towards things like, we haven't talked about this in a long time, but like getting better at handwriting and

[55:26] Michael: Keyboards, like, you like fine motor skills of how to like, actually write on your keyboard.

[55:32] Matt: Oh, you're on my computer because I type in a different keyboard layout. Yeah. So just to take one example. So like on guitar, you learn to play guitar because playing guitar is fun. You, you literally, you play. It's play. And then you want to get better, and so you start seeking out how to get better. And, well, what should you do? You should practice scales. How long should I practice scales? All day if you can. And so especially when I was in music school and I was practicing sometimes six hours a day, I might spend three or four hours practicing scales. It is boring as hell, but it works. It will teach you things that you can't learn any other way. These fine motor skills that you just do badly over and over and over, over and over and over again. You think you will never get better, and then you go back to playing that piece you were playing and holy crap, I'm better. But you have to remember to go back to playing because you know, when you're doing these fine motor skill work, practicing scales as the example, it sucks. It's work. It is not play. It is not fun. There's no joy. It's only pain. But I think you can kind of get obsessed with things like that to where you do more of that than you do of the actual playing, you know, or you do. You forget that the reason that you got into so into handwriting is because you loved writing. You loved writing stories and journaling and all of that. And you get so obsessed with the handwriting itself that you forget to ever write again. And these are, these are very real dangers and these are metaphorical and literal. I mean, these are literal examples from my life, but I think they're really metaphorical of a lot of things in our lives. You kind of forget that maybe the purpose of your marriage is mutual joy and pleasure and satisfaction. And you just start concentrating on the things that I have to do to make sure she doesn't get bitchy tonight. And you forget. I think we're. It's like we're constantly in the, in a battle of forgetting if we're not careful. We, we, we forget because we're not children anymore.

[58:04] Michael: Yeah,

[58:05] Matt: children don't freaking forget.

[58:09] Michael: Well, they also, like, demand new things too, because, like, there's. I was just thinking about, like, there's, you know, something that fun that Alison and I do recently is watch the UT football games. And we have a lot of fun together watching the games. You know, it's like, yeah, right. High fives and stuff like that. But then there's this other part too where, you know, sometimes we'll get into seasons where we're like, we'll watch movies together. And there's a difference between, like watching movies. Then all of a sudden movies are filling a space. So you're not. You're not doing it together anymore, actually. And it's like, where does that. Where's that line? Like, watching a show together can be a great thing and can be healthy and good. And then at some point turns to like, oh, we're just kind of feeling. We're kind of just two individuals here.

[59:01] Matt: Yeah.

[59:01] Michael: Or I mean, you're. You know, my kids too. It's like sometimes I'm just like. They're just here, their background, and I do the things that dads do and then like, oh, I don't really have like a relationship with my kids, you know, and then you. Then you kind of change something up and it's like all of a sudden now you're back in relationship with your kids. Right. And I think that's. Yeah. There's just such a deadly thing that creeps in there that something that was alive now has become dead. And then you have to resurrect it again.

[59:45] Matt: I suppose it's like that with everything in our lives. I mean, even just the physical items that fill our homes,

[59:51] Michael: you

[59:51] Matt: know, when they're new, you take care of them, you prioritize them, you privilege them in your home. And as they get. At some point you kind of forget.

[60:01] Michael: Yeah.

[60:01] Matt: Forget to take care of it. It's like we. We have to be conscious of renewing our relationships with people and with things. Otherwise we forget them.

[60:18] Michael: Yeah. We become NPCs.

[60:20] Matt: Yeah.

[60:25] Michael: Yeah. This is such a complex thing because as I'm just thinking about, like. Like how to, like, not that we're at that point, but like just kind of like wrapping that up. Like how to wrap this up in a nice, pretty bow.

[60:41] Matt: Yeah. I mean, I actually think we could be at that point because I don't know where to go next. I feel like there's a. Well, I think. I feel like there's some hope in it. I mean, we talked about hope earlier, and I ask the question, how do you regain it if you've lost it? And maybe another answer to that. The first being cling to someone who has it. And the second might be, look for relationships that you can renew.

[61:11] Michael: Well, I still think it's peculiar. I mean, maybe more for me in this area. I apologize earlier about bringing up a whole bunch of Bible verses, and I was just like, but I haven't found a better way to talk about it. And it's like, I find that's why, like, Jesus is so credible to me is because the framework that he lays down is the only. It's the only thing that really makes sense to me. It's like, hey, you have fallen short, and there's no way that you can actually meet that standard.

[61:46] Matt: Yeah.

[61:48] Michael: You know, so basically I'm going to. I'm going to take that from you. Like, you don't have to meet that standard because I'm doing that for you. So now you can now pursue that in a way that's different, you know, And I think that's. That's the part is like, that's where the grace is. It's like. It's like, now I can pursue things knowing that I'm going. I do fall short, and that I need to have that humility that I fall short. It's like a confession.

[62:19] Matt: But the pursuit is still worth it.

[62:20] Michael: The pursuit is still worth it. Yeah. And it's like anytime that I feel like I earned it. And again, I can almost say this to the. To the degree or to the nth degree that this is true. That anytime that I believe I've deserved. Slips through my fingers or have to hold on so tight.

[62:43] Matt: Yeah.

[62:44] Michael: That it's like, I got it. My

[62:46] Matt: precious.

[62:47] Michael: Yeah, there you go. You know, and it. And. And there's. But there's death in that. Yeah. It's like I die inside

[62:54] Matt: Gollum.

[62:54] Michael: Yeah. And so I feel like that's why I can only. I can only use that. This language, because it's the language that explains it the truest. I believe.

[63:12] Matt: I agree with you. And maybe just a second note on that. I think the thing inside of you that apologized for quoting Bible verses, you know, it has its roots in our own history. I mean, when we started this podcast, one of the things we agreed we wouldn't talk about was religion. And maybe it's worth just a moment's reflection about why we made that decision. And I think it's because it's probably twofold. The first being that I think Christianity has really fallen out of fashion in the West. And given the fact that we were having conversations publicly, we wanted to stay to topics that would have the broadest interest. The second part of it is that I think while you and I consider ourselves Christians, we don't. Broadly. I'll just speak for myself. I don't. How do I say this? I don't consider myself a Christian in the modern sense of the church word. I consider myself a Christian in that I believe that the Bible is true and I believe that Christ rose from the dead. And I think it's. Growing up in the south and in the Bible Belt, there's a lot of sort of coding that goes on with Christian language that in my own personal history, I always. I've always kind of resented a little bit. Like people want to categorize me based upon my answers to certain questions, and I would just rather them get to know me. And we can have. I mean, I think that these things, like the things we're talking about tonight and the fact that they end up referencing Bible verses is because they're profound and they're profoundly deep. And to your point, I agree with you that the only way to talk about them is to reference the words of Jesus or the words of God because they're mysterious words. But they seem to be pointing the way. They seem to be pointing to the things that we're trying to talk about. And I worry that a sort of nonchalant reference to those things will be received as coded for something and will be used to categorize me or you or this podcast. And so I wanted to stay away from it, but I think obviously we haven't, especially over the last probably year at least. And I think it's because our conversations are going into places and into topics in which

[66:24] Matt: you're kind of. I gotta see.

[66:26] Matt: I really snuck up on me. You're going. We're going into waters where without the mysterious sort of metaphorical language that is given through the Bible, it's very hard. It's very difficult to talk about them. And so. And I want to have these conversations. And so, you know, let's talk about it. And I. I don't think you or I need to apologize for that.

[66:51] Michael: Well, I almost think maybe next. No, I guess next week we're. We're not going to be here, but the following week, it's like, that might be fun place to get into because like. Like I hardly ever reference myself as a Christian because I just. So many people. There's so many connotations that come with that, that I sort of shy away from. And some of it's. It's negative on my part, like. Cause I just don't. I never know what people understand that to mean. And I think that's why

[67:26] Matt: maybe I shy away from it because I think most people understand that to mean. Well, I go to church and that Makes me a good person.

[67:31] Michael: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. Because at the same time, like, as I've gotten older too, because, you know, I didn't really kind of grow up in the church and have never really done that for the most part. But I've also come, as I've gotten older to appreciate some of that more Christian culture because there's a certain language that people share that is helpful, but it's not necessarily helpful outside of those circles. And, you know, I think that's something. When I see some things I. My kids kind of missed out on. Not growing up in some of that stuff is. Is kind of negative, you know, and also there's a positive to it too, I think, because then they also don't have the baggage of some of that culture. So again, I kind of like, I kind of go back and forth on. On some of that stuff. It's like sometimes that that baggage is worth the substance that comes from it too. So I think I've gotten a lot more lenient in that. My perspective. But I still.

[68:38] Matt: No solutions, only trade offs.

[68:40] Michael: Totally. Exactly. It's the truth. Yeah. But that might be an interesting kind of conversation, our experience of that world, you know, whether it be our early years or now, or different experiences through that. Does that sound interesting to you to talk about? I don't know.

[68:59] Matt: I'm noting it down. We'll revisit it before the next step.

[69:03] Michael: Cool.

[69:03] Matt: Cool. Well, I say we leave it there.

[69:07] Michael: Awesome.

[69:07] Matt: Okay,

[69:08] Michael: awesome. Thanks for coming out, guys.

[69:09] Matt: Yeah, cheers.

[69:10] Michael: Cheers.

[69:10] Matt: Love you out there. It like a marine.