Specifying What is Holy

[0:20] Matt: We good?

[0:21] Michael: We good.

[0:22] Matt: We good? We

[0:23] Michael: good? We good?

[0:24] Matt: Hey,

[0:25] Michael: welcome to the shores. To the

[0:26] Matt: shores. To the

[0:26] Michael: shores.

[0:32] Matt: I feel like this is going to be a lively one.

[0:35] Michael: Dude, we've already tackled so much. I

[0:37] Matt: know. It's been a good night.

[0:38] Michael: I don't know where we're going to go from here.

[0:40] Matt: Well, I have a jumping off point, so. All

[0:42] Michael: right,

[0:42] Matt: let's see where that takes us.

[0:46] Michael: All right.

[0:48] Matt: That hopefully will kind of round up some of the topics that we've been wanting to talk about and that we've kind of been hitting on off the podcast. And it starts in the world of AI. So did you see this clip going around on Twitter of a company advertising an AI avatar version of dead loved ones? Oh. So it's like a woman who is pregnant, and she's holding up a phone, and she's talking to her mom, who it's understood that her mom is dead, and she's talking to her mom about the pregnancy of this child, and they're conversing. And then it. Fast forward, fast forwards. The child's born, and he's talking to his grandma who's dead, and then he grows up, and he's still talking to his grandma, and then he has a kid. And the idea is like, they're advertising a version of AI where it seems kind of plainly obvious that this is where things would or could go. It's like, if I were to die, you could take all. All of our. What do we have, 13,000 hours of content? I don't know. Is it that much? I think it's.

[2:02] Michael: What number are we on right

[2:03] Matt: now? 258.

[2:04] Michael: 258. Damn.

[2:06] Matt: And train an AI on it. And now AI can produce video, like, really convincing video. Show it a bunch of pictures of me, and then you create an AI of me, and you could talk to it, and it could be convincingly me. And while on its surface that might sound like something you might want to do, there's some, I think, some really sort of scary pitfalls to that. And I want to start with this tweet from Bret Weinstein. And he and Heather on the DarkHorse talk about this at length in their latest episode. I think it's 300 or 301. And one of the many points that they make is like, you're fucking with grief. What does it mean to grieve the loss of someone? What does it even mean to lose someone? If you have some facsimile. Of them that you can visit from time to time. And they make the point that evolutionarily, grief is a really important thing, as is loss. I mean, it's important that. Well, because we all die. It's important that people die, and it's important that you are raised by your parents and your parents die and you become the parent, you know, and anyways, and then they. They outline a bunch of other sort of real big issues with this and make the point that this is coming whether we want it or not. You know, like, one of the big issues being, will the AI version of the dead person be allowed to say what the dead person would say? Or does it get, you know, uploaded with the thing you're supposed to say at the given time? You know, is the Anthony Fauci narrative imposed upon Bret's AI after he's dead, and he's saying, no, these vaccines are definitely safe and effective. Does the AI facsimile of people get to be anti establishment? Does it get to be heretical? So, lots of issues there, but I didn't want to talk necessarily so much about that, but about Bret's response. He retweeted the video and he said, I'm not a religious person, but this is unholy. That's the only term that captures the depravity of it. And I thought that was really, really interesting. You know, you and I talk a lot about. We talk in and around religious concepts. And I've been trying to think about where the entry point into that is for me, why is it that I believe what I believe, and this was an entry point for me.

[5:15] Michael: Oh, interesting. How so? Why was it an entry point?

[5:17] Matt: Well, because if it is unholy, which I agree with Bret's point, it does feel very unholy. That means that there is something holy. And if there is something holy, what is that? I think that's my entry point into ideas about God. And to further that point, in their podcast, Bret and Heather talked about, they made the analogy to pornography. How pornography takes something which, and Bret says is intimate and sacred, and it strips it of that sacredness and reduces it only to transactional pleasure. And again, I agree with that. But the admission that there is something sacred there begs the question, well, what is it? What is sacred?

[6:12] Michael: Yeah,

[6:13] Matt: and maybe. And this is a. You know, because Bret is an atheist, he says he's an atheist. And I wonder if perhaps whatever it is that is holy and sacred is easier to see when it's violated than it is when it's Validated.

[6:32] Michael: Oh, interesting. Okay.

[6:35] Matt: Like, you can see something unholy and be like, that's unholy. But when you see something holy, do you say, that's holy?

[6:47] Michael: Yeah, that's a. That's. I don't really know how to answer that. Sometimes something that is unholy is definitely more violating your senses. Something's like, something has been violated, and you can acknowledge that. But if something is what you might consider holy, you could be like, oh, wow, that's amazing. That's awesome.

[7:10] Matt: Right?

[7:11] Michael: I can't believe that. Did you see that? But we don't. We wouldn't normally, without having some sort of religious background say, wow, that is holy. So I think so maybe just in our language, we. We express it wholly different than we do. What is something that's unholy? Because something that's unholy is definitely more of a violation. But I think it's harder for us to acknowledge something that is holy because then it actually feels like you have to acknowledge something greater than yourself.

[7:43] Matt: Well, it does bring up questions. It's like, if, okay, if there is something holy, if there is something sacred, what is it? And what is my position toward it? What sort of attitude should I have about it? What sort of attitude should I have toward it?

[7:58] Michael: Yeah,

[7:59] Matt: and that's kind of a scary question because it's a question that is really revealing of yourself. Like, maybe it's easier to object to something than it is to submit to something. I could object to the unholy representation of a dead loved one. I can object to the obvious violation of the sacred in pornography or even in just, you know, modern sex culture in general. It's easier to object to that than to say, what is a real sexual relationship? If it could be all that it could be, and what is it that is holy? To examine that, I have to examine myself. I have to. You know, it opens up the biggest questions and mysteries of life. And maybe it's enough to say, well, that's unholy. That's a violation of the sacred. I can kind of be done. Then, you know, I don't really have to search my heart.

[8:55] Michael: Yeah.

[8:58] Matt: And, yeah, I found that very, very fascinating. I mean, that even. And I think this is true, even an atheist can identify when the holy has been violated, something core in us that feels that in a visceral way. And I think that's the beginning of my thinking about God. So, okay, I admit that there is something holy. What is it? And then I might say, well, maybe it's not a what Maybe it's a who.

[9:40] Michael: Well, I don't want to back up a little bit here just because, like, I do have a certain reaction just in bringing up the idea of the holy.

[9:49] Matt: Yeah.

[9:52] Michael: Because I think that's still. It's a little bit hard for me to engage with. Like, I think intellectually I understand holy, but I feel like some. Like there's. There's too much Mickey Mouse around it for me to really, like, use it in a serious way. And kind of what I mean is, is I. To me, when someone says something is holy, I don't really know what they mean. Well,

[10:24] Matt: do people say that?

[10:25] Michael: Well, that's. That's. That's.

[10:26] Matt: People don't say that.

[10:27] Michael: Well, I'm trying to, like, kind of reference. Like, times I have heard that. It's like, mostly in Christian culture. Like, you know, this is. You're standing on holy ground. It's like, okay, like, what do you mean? It's like, intellectually, I know what you're saying, and it's like, maybe like they feel, or we feel the presence of God, or there's something that's like. And it's like, you know, Abraham and Moses, you know, Moses with the burning bush, he takes off his shoes because he's on holy ground. Like, he's acknowledging there's something here that is more. That's greater than him, and it's something holy, something set apart

[11:01] Matt: that is to be respected.

[11:02] Michael: To be respected. Yeah. And I don't think I. I don't think I. I see that or acknowledge that on a very regular basis. You know, like, there's one vision I always have whenever there's this. I think it might be Ezekiel or somewhere. I forgot where it was. But there's this whole part where these angels are circling God and they're just saying, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy, holy. And they're just circuiting. And it's funny because, like, you know, like, how I translate that, that made a lot more sense to me is no way. Holy shit. Really? No way. It's like angels cussing. Yeah. You know, like, just blown out of their mind that this is, like, way, like, I can't handle this. Like, this is so amazing and so awe inspiring and. But that, the way I just described it made a lot more sense to me than angels going around God going, holy, holy, holy, holy. Yeah. It's like the expression that doesn't have the. That full expression, which I feel like it should have.

[12:09] Matt: Well, maybe the word holy is almost definitionally difficult to define.

[12:18] Michael: Yeah.

[12:19] Matt: Because. Well, what is it, we don't know, we have to discover it, you have to pursue it. I mean, it's like, okay, if I admit that something is unholy, then I also admit tacitly that there is something which is holy. Well, what is that? What is holy? And I don't mean the definition of the word, but you're looking at up the street.

[12:51] Michael: Yeah, it sounds curious of dedicated or consecrated to God or, or religious purpose, sacred. In other words, using exclamations of surprise, alarm or dismay

[13:03] Matt: like holy shit.

[13:04] Michael: Yeah.

[13:09] Matt: I said at the end of our conversation last week that I've been thinking a lot about specificity. So let me try to enter this from a different direction.

[13:15] Michael: Okay.

[13:18] Matt: It has to do with specificity. I was talking to someone who said that they had been praying to the universe, which is a common enough thing that people talk about people who want to be spiritual but not religious, let's say. Not sure what's a good term for that category. Some people might call it kind of woo woo or new age. New

[13:49] Michael: age comes in.

[13:50] Matt: Yeah. And I was thinking about that for a long time. Praying to the universe, what does that mean? And I thought, well, does evil exist? And I think that the answer, I think in one sense we live in a culture that does not believe evil exists, doesn't act like it believes it exists, but I think it's fairly obvious that evil does exist. And so, okay, if you can establish that evil does exist and you're praying to the universe, which is everything, then what part of your prayer is directed towards something evil? And how much of the answer to your prayer is being given to you by something which is evil? If you are unspecific about what you're praying to, you might not know the danger that is coming for you because you don't know who it is that's going to answer your prayer. And I think I just thought, okay, that's really interesting because does prayer have power or not? If someone's praying to the universe and they're acknowledging,

[15:03] Michael: they're

[15:03] Matt: acknowledging that there's power in it, okay, well, who holds that power? And I thought, man, I feel like it's a really dangerous thing to be unspecific about something that you are claiming has power and authority. And okay, so what would it mean to get specific and to say, I'm praying well, I'm praying to the universe, but not that part of the universe that contains Hitler, or not that part of the universe that organizes genocides. Okay, so what's the part of the universe that isn't that? And you could start thinking, okay, if I'm going to get specific about, okay, just the good part of the universe. Well, what is the good part of the universe? And if you follow that question, which is the same thing as to say, I think, okay, there's something holy. What is it? You, in a, in a way embark on a pursuit of your life, pursuit of your lifetime. Because whatever it is that is utmost, holy, utmost good, set apart within the universe from what is evil, whatever that is, you are not ever going to get fully, you know, your hands around it. And so it will always be the question. And the question, I think as you get it more pointed and tighter and tighter, is something like, well, what's a word that describes the most holy thing? What's a word that describes the part of the universe that it is worth praying to? And I think that the word is God. And so the question then is, who is God? What is my position toward him?

[16:55] Michael: Well, maybe before we go any further.

[16:56] Matt: Yeah,

[16:57] Michael: I mean, I feel like there's some, some clarifying because I run into a lot of questions here because, you know, you, we say the universe and then, and you, I think you. I really enjoyed like how you were laying that out because there's so many different ways, depending on who you're talking to is like, is, is the universe personal? If it's not personal, then why are you praying to. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Or is it, are you just paying homage to it? Okay, so by you paying homage, is there, is that, is something going to be given back to you or like, so I think you start running into these problems when you, like, I think that's why you're talking about. We need specificity. Yeah. What is the universe? And you know, again, if you're taking an active role and praying to it, then you're saying something about the universe that you don't maybe understand what you, what you, you're even saying.

[17:55] Matt: Right.

[17:55] Michael: It's like, you know, I was just thinking of something really silly like, hey, you know, universe, please protect me. Okay, well, just in you saying that means that the universe has some sort of reason to protect you

[18:10] Matt: and agency.

[18:11] Michael: And agency.

[18:12] Matt: Yeah. And will,

[18:14] Michael: I mean, what's, what's to not think that the agent, like the universe is just not chaos and doesn't decay, it'll swallow a star just as easily as it would swallow you.

[18:25] Matt: Yeah.

[18:27] Michael: So it's like, I think that's the part where that loose terminology really kind of runs into, runs into some issues. Although I'M sympathetic to it because I think it's at least something like you're looking outside of yourself. Because basically, I think a lot of people, when they say, you know, the universe, you know, is my guiding. So it's like a guide to me or something. It's like they're. They're saying something outside of themselves is guiding them. And again, they're using all these words like guide or it's like there's agency, there's. There's. There's intention. And I think the universe. And really, the way I. The way I see it, there is no intention, you know, like in and of itself. Like, it's like when you say God, you're talking about something outside of the universe, something of a creator, something that made, something that had intention. So you could say in a sense, like, well, the intention of stars and planets and stuff like that is like there is a chaos to it, but then you also see an order. It's like. So you see this. These two things kind of happening together. Well, if it's the universe, then those things are tied together in a way that, you know, there is no. It's just a Ying and Yang. And it's like constantly ebbing and flowing. So are you asking it to ebb or flow your way at this time? But if we know that if it ebbs your way and flows another. It's like you're actually causing harm somewhere else. I don't know. Maybe I'm going too esoteric on this, but if you're talking to a God of the universe or something more specific that has specific reasons and intentions for different aspects of the universe, like humans has a specific intention for humans versus animals, vers, stars versus planets. I feel like you start to kind of like. I think what you're saying is like, we're starting to have more specificity in what we're actually moving towards.

[20:30] Matt: Well, you said you were sympathetic to it. I think that there's some humility to it. I mean, to humble yourself to the universe that. That is, you know, at least directionally proper. Because it's fairly clear when you consider your both physical and temporal finiteness that you don't really matter much to the universe. You know, like Carl Sagan's pale blue dot speech is like, insert here. Yeah, it's very beautiful. So. And humility is a good thing. But I immediately think, okay, again, like, well, what is it that I'm humble to? Maybe to use your point, am I humble just simply to the chaos and to the size and duration like the sheer magnitude of those things. Am I to take away from that, that I'm mostly a meaningless blip on this otherwise nearly infinite scale?

[21:40] Michael: Which is helpful sometimes. Like, oh,

[21:41] Matt: yeah,

[21:42] Michael: okay, this gives me some perspective that maybe my problems aren't as big as I think they are.

[21:49] Matt: But then having sort of built up that construct, it doesn't seem like the thing that Bret is having a reaction to when he says that this is unholy.

[22:01] Michael: Yeah,

[22:02] Matt: he's not referencing that. That's. That's not congruent. It's incompatible. It's like our near meaninglessness. That's what you mean when you say that, that, that the unholiness is violating. It's violating our near meaninglessness. No, I don't think so. There has to be something more. And to your point, there has to be something with intention. And what is that?

[22:32] Michael: Yeah,

[22:33] Matt: if it, if it isn't the universe, which it. Well, again, it's kind of like. What do you mean by the universe? Is it. Are you talking about atoms and gravitational waves and ultraviolet light and

[22:48] Michael: chemical process? Chemical

[22:49] Matt: processes that are, you know, so reliably set in their path that we can depend on them for as long as we've been depending on them. I don't think that, you know, the orbit of Jupiter has intention. So what is it that keeps it in its orbit? What is the intention that put it there? You know, I don't think that a volcano erupting has intention. You know, it's just the result of a physical process that's going to happen one way or another. So, you know, what is it that has intention that put it there? And then further than that, who am I? You know, and I'm this. This being that walks through life and has reactions to things. I can experience awe. I can experience the violation of something holy and sacred. I can have these reactions of despair and meaninglessness, but also like joy and deep richness at my own. Well, to bring, you know, sex back into it. I can have a reaction that says something had just. Something just happened that was deeper than my ability to understand it. And I don't mean that from a scientific point of view. I mean that from a heart point of view or a soul point of view. And okay, so it seems like things have gotten a little bit more layered here. So

[24:37] Michael: especially if you experience like meaningless sex, like sex as an activity, you know, and like there's a difference whenever you actually have connection with somebody. And it's not just a one time connection, it's something that persists through Time and that's different. And so you start to kind of differentiate these things. And that's where pornography and it's like they cheapen that.

[25:05] Matt: I had a friend say to me once, the first time you have sex with anybody is never the best time. You know, sex only gets better as you get to know the person. It seems kind of obvious.

[25:20] Michael: Yeah,

[25:20] Matt: I mean maybe the romanticized version of kind of like one night stands has us think that, oh yeah, I'm gonna have a one night stand, hook up with this person. It's gonna be great sex. It's like, no, it's gonna be really awkward and disappointing. But again, okay, so what does that tell us? The better I get to know someone, the better that activity gets. And well, okay, how good could it get? Where's that pointing?

[25:50] Michael: Yeah, especially if you have sex in the. You was with somebody and then you go and have sex outside of that. You know, it's like, you see that in like divorce and stuff like that is just sort of like there's a rift that happens with the relationship that you had prior and it like, you know, why is that? Like, because there's like, there's, there's meaning and intimacy that was developed and now something's broken. And you know, I think that's, I'm just also thinking before I got married, like, you know, like how sex was in my life. Like, it's like there's this, this attempt at connection in relation, but there was something kind of missing in that. I think that's hard to identify. But once you, I think it, once you're in a committed relationship, specifically long term, like sex does change. There's also a procreation side of that too, you know, but sex just changes in different. It's a part of your relationship.

[27:00] Matt: Yeah, you said there's something missing. I mean, again, I keep trying to point to these places where it's very difficult to define what it is that's missing. Because I think that sex in its proper place ends up being a lifelong sort of co. Self discovery that's never done. And I think that's why it gets better. It's hard to define what's missing on the other side of unholy. But I think that there's a great danger in being unspecific about it or pretending that it's not there. And I think once that, once you see that entry point, well, it's quite frankly easy to just close that door because you don't want to walk that direction. But I find so much hope in It. And the answer isn't obvious. I mean, I'm attempting to use the word God as a sort of a placeholder for that and work my way to that.

[28:10] Michael: Well, maybe we could start. Maybe we could do this. Because I kind of.

[28:13] Matt: Oh, I wanted to say because it's also finding out what that is. That missing thing on the other side of unholy is also a lifelong process of discovery. It's not an answer. I mean, what. What is God is not. It's not a question with an answer.

[28:32] Michael: Well, have you ever experienced anything like, you're like, oh, wow, that's holy.

[28:45] Matt: Yes.

[28:46] Michael: Okay.

[28:48] Matt: It's hard to be specific, maybe. I mean, certain. Certain ideas, Certain experiences. I'm trying to think if there was, like, a physical experience of holiness. And I want to say I have experienced it in places of nature or like, do you remember when we went out to Big Bend a couple of years ago and we had one or two nights where it was just really cold and still and no clouds, and we just went and just stood outside with our necks craned over just looking at the Milky Way for like an hour, two hours, until we couldn't physically do it anymore?

[29:35] Michael: Yeah. It's like, I hate this. My neck's hurting. But you

[29:38] Matt: can't look away.

[29:39] Michael: Totally.

[29:39] Matt: There seems to be something holy about that. I mean, when I encounter. What is it? Evidence of design, there's something to me that feels holy about that.

[30:04] Michael: Yeah. I think for me, I. I just don't ever use that word, which is. I think that's why it's hard for me to even, like, I. I've. I've experienced awe.

[30:16] Matt: Yeah.

[30:16] Michael: You know, and then you could say. You could probably relate that to holy, you know, but.

[30:24] Matt: But I think the point I'm trying to make is that we don't need to get caught up on what holy is. I want to make the point that it is, in part, unanswerable. You cannot answer that because, well, who are you to, like, you know, fully understand what is holy? You're so far from holy yourself.

[30:48] Michael: That hurts my feelings.

[30:49] Matt: Yeah. Sorry to do it to you.

[30:52] Michael: Thanks. I think it's more easy for me to, like, identify with what is unholy. Like, that makes. That kind of. Makes more like what is perverted. Like, that's. That's kind of what I feel like whenever I think of something that's unholy is something that's perverted. Like pornography is a perversion of sex, you know. You know. You know, genocide is a perversion of human. You know, Understanding your connection with other humans. You know, there's something that, like. It's just that. That kind of. I think that side of it makes more sense to me than the other side of that. What is that? What is holy? Like, what is unholy? I feel like I could kind of, like, connect with that a little bit better.

[31:40] Matt: Totally. And I think it's because it's identifiable. You can point at it and say, see, there it is.

[31:44] Michael: Yeah.

[31:45] Matt: But you can't do that with God. And even if you could, I mean, this is the. This is the problem with it, conceptually. I think why it's so hard to talk about. I mean, so

[32:00] Michael: we need to look at all the characters in the Bible is like, anytime they were. They encountered the holy. That's what I'm saying. They're on. Oh, they're on the floor. Yeah,

[32:07] Matt: yeah. They don't necessarily

[32:10] Michael: look at

[32:10] Matt: it. Yeah, totally. I mean, who was it that God showed his back?

[32:16] Michael: Oh, yeah, Moses and the cliff.

[32:19] Matt: And he was pretty much laid up. Right. Okay. So I think that that's a key to the question. It's like, what is holy? Well, you don't have the brain power for it. Sorry. You don't have the definite to accept the definition. And that's the distance that you are from what is holy. So you can see when it's violated, but you can't really see what it is. You can't look it directly in the face. Like just. You can't look directly into the sun.

[32:47] Michael: Oh, fascinating.

[32:48] Matt: And so,

[32:50] Michael: like, just even that concept is representative in temple, like the Jews temple, like the holiest of holy. Like, nobody could go into. Right. Like nobody could peer into it. Right. I can think the priests went in once a year, and they had to tie a rope onto them because. To

[33:06] Matt: drag their dead

[33:06] Michael: body out. Yeah. If they didn't survive, you know. But that's. That's the connection with the holy. It's so set apart and so. But it. But it is something.

[33:19] Matt: Yeah, it's something. And then I think once you establish that it has intention, I think it isn't something. I think it's someone. And okay, who. Who is it? And what is its character? And I think that that begins well. Another reason maybe why it's easy to identify what is unholy is because, like, you want to walk away from it. It's like you point to it. I want to walk the opposite direction of that. You see something disgusting, rotting animal. You're like, I don't need to understand the process by which it's rotting or the full thing that happened here. I just know that it's making me feel sick. And if I were to interact with it, I might actually get sick. So I'm going to walk the other direction. Okay, what's the other direction? And in this case, I think, like, what's the direction of the holy. Well, you. You don't really get to answer that, but you do get to relate with it. And it sets you on a path, just like a committed relationship sets you on a path to have the most sacred and intimate sex you will ever have. And that only increases over time. You know, obviously might have some decreases here and there, but it increases over time. You're. Once you set off on the path to ask the question, like, what does it mean to get specific about what holy is? What does it mean to get specific about the part of the universe that's worth praying to? What does it mean to start filling in an answer for that? And I think that starts to be. I mean, one claim would be that that starts to be a life worth living. And it runs you into a lot of questions that I'm asking more deeply in my life now than I ever have before, which is like, okay, I'm going to. I've already posited that there is something holy and that it isn't a thing. It's a whole. Who is it? It's. I think it's God. Well, who is God? And you might, you know, look around for available answers to that, you know, and you started talking about this a little bit last week. Like, some point in your life, you kind of went on a. Did a little religious tourism.

[35:47] Michael: Totally.

[35:49] Matt: You know, and I've. I've never done that. But you. You have done a little bit of it. But that might be one way that you start to investigate the question.

[35:59] Michael: I love that saying, the religious tourism. That's exactly what I did. Hilarious. That's great.

[36:04] Matt: Visit for a while.

[36:05] Michael: Yeah. Let's check this out and see what's going on.

[36:11] Matt: And so, okay, maybe I'm jumping a little far ahead here, but I think it's really interesting that in the Bible, especially the New Testament, one of the central questions is, do you believe I am who I say I am? Which is fascinating to me and maybe a prime example of why I believe that the Bible tells the story of who answers the question that I'm asking. If I want to get specific about what is good and holy, and I think it's God, how do I get to know God? And the Bible answers that Question. But it doesn't do it by telling me who God is. You know, it is God sort of saying, do you believe my answer? I'm telling you who I am. Here is my story. Do you believe

[37:12] Michael: what's interesting? My

[37:13] Matt: answer.

[37:13] Michael: It's his story through relationship.

[37:15] Matt: Yes.

[37:15] Michael: With, through

[37:16] Matt: a lineage.

[37:17] Michael: Hundreds of different. Yeah. Thousands of different individuals, you know,

[37:23] Matt: so it's like, who is God? If we could ask him and he tells us. And then the problem is not with his answer, it's with our inability to accept it. When you were talking even earlier tonight, there's a story in the Bible when Satan tempts Jesus after 40 years, 40 days in the desert. And the thing that Satan keeps saying is if you are who you say you are. I find that so fascinating because I think if you were going to sort of invent a religion, it wouldn't play out that way. If you were trying to answer the question who is God? Or give a satisfactory answer to someone who, through some entry point like the acknowledgment that it's obvious when something sacred is violated. Okay, so that means there is something sacred. What is that sacred thing? If you were setting out to organize a religion to answer that question, you might come up with some answers, but I don't think it would be filled with do you, do you believe that I am who I say I am? It does seem to me like the way that that text is positioned is to answer the question and then pose a follow up question which is, I've told you who I am. Do you believe me? And mostly we say, no, I don't believe you.

[38:52] Michael: Yeah. And most of the people in the Bible said no and then said yes and then said no.

[38:58] Matt: Even the ones closest to Jesus in the characters of Peter, for example, who denies Christ but then goes on to start the church as we know it, the Catholic Church, or even the character of David in the Old Testament says, I don't turns away from him, turns back to him. And so God answers us and then we pervert his answer and fuck it up and then he redeems. You know, we go back to that story of David and Bathsheba, who he lusted over and murdered her husband so that he could take her as his wife. This is pretty terrible behavior, you know, that he really only got away with because he was king. So he's abusing his power.

[39:56] Michael: Yeah,

[39:56] Matt: he was murderous and lustful. And their child ends up becoming Solomon, who is the wisest person to ever live. That's the way the story goes. There's just this crazy pattern of violation and redemption, which is also like another, I don't think, another thing that you, you wouldn't design into a story. No human, I don't think, can design that into a story without having known it previously. Something archetypal to it. It's sort of an a priori story.

[40:34] Michael: I think we also just experience that in our lives on a daily basis. It's like. Like we experience that we violated something, you know, especially relationally. If you're in any sort of relationship with a, you know, a friendship or romantic person, your wife, your husband, you know, whatever it might be, it's like, it's like, you know what it means to violate somebody's trust, to violate an agreement that you have with somebody. And so that's something we experience. And then we also experience the redemption in those relationships. If you've been friends with anybody for any period of time, or married for infertility, it's like you experience that. And so I think that's when you see that.

[41:17] Matt: Well, and that's interesting. So it's like we're familiar with a pattern violation and redemption, but I don't know that in our lives we necessarily can expect redemption. I mean, it does happen, but I'm sure we've all, at some point, whether it's with a romantic partner or a friend, something occurs. And you think, I don't know if we can come back from this. And I can remember times in my life with relationships where I was just on pins and needles. It's like, are we going to recover from this? But I think that when we start to ask the question, okay, who is God and what is God's character? And it's almost like you, okay, so if as a way to answer that question, I go read the Bible, I actually see that pattern of violation and redemption at the highest level, sort of the most meta level. And I also see God saying, specifically, yes, this is the pattern and it ends in redemption. I guarantee it. And I think, Well, I want to be a part of that. You know,

[42:33] Michael: I think kind of just going back to the whole idea of specificity is it's like, then you start to, you know, it's like if that's something that you believe, like, again, the whole thing is like, do you believe who I say I am? And, you know, I think that's the part where whenever you start to acknowledge that reality, it's like something shifts. And I think that's whenever the whole idea, those ideas of what something is holy and what something is unholy or sacred and unsacred or sacrilege or whatever. However you say it start to make more sense. And I feel like that helps you better to understand the world around you. When you accept that, that reality of like ultimate redemption, like there will always be violation, but at the end of all of that there will be redemption.

[43:26] Matt: Ultimate redemption.

[43:27] Michael: Yeah. And so there's a certain amount of like, like, I think hope that also builds in you in that. And then you start seeing the world through a different lens. That even though there is a lot of violation around us, you know, whether it be friendships or whether it be, you know, relationships of any sort, it's like you always know that there's hope. Even our, our in the US the penal system is sort of has that sort of redemptive aspect. It's like, hey, you know, we're going to put you away for a period of time, but in the hopes that you will come out of this a different person. And obviously there's more extreme examples of this too, but that's why we have parole and options to maybe even get some of that stayed, you know,

[44:13] Matt: which is also, I mean, you only come up with that idea by first recognizing that people are God's creation. I think it's really hard to see this from our current vantage point in modern culture because we are a culture that is absolutely infused with the Judeo Christian set of values and assumptions and a priori axioms, and we've also jettisoned those consciously. But then we sort of behave as if, you know, our penal system is sort of self evidently a good system because, you know, people should be given a second chance. It's like, no, that isn't self evident at all

[45:08] Michael: or even want to negate the violation to begin with. Like, you see this in, in many places where they're allowing criminals to run to the basically be let out after they're, they committed the crime and basically they're saying there was no violation. You know, as far as like, you know, you hear about these people that commit these crimes and then they're like let out again and they've done that two or three times and then they end up killing somebody. And it's like, it's like there's, it's like we need to be able to acknowledge like, no, there was a violation that happened here and we need to. You need a timeout.

[45:43] Matt: Well, yeah, and maybe that the point there is that the, the Christian, what is it? Structure is the only one that incorporates acknowledgment of the violation and a path towards redemption.

[46:01] Michael: Yeah,

[46:02] Matt: an offering of redemption.

[46:03] Michael: Yeah, it's like an option.

[46:04] Matt: Yeah. But my point is that the idea that people can be redeemed, even just in the penal system, it's like you've done something wrong. You need to be put in sort of time out for a little while, but you can. We believe that you can overcome this and rejoin society productively. I think that that is an idea that relies on a belief in the existence of God. Because without that, you know, why in the world would you ever assume that somebody's life had value?

[46:43] Michael: Yeah, it's like. It's almost like, no, they just have bad software and we probably need. In that program.

[46:49] Matt: Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

[46:52] Michael: Yeah. They're no longer a productive part of society. And we do that in some sense. You know, Death row and stuff.

[47:01] Matt: Yeah. Who is it? Peter Singer.

[47:05] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[47:06] Matt: You know, he basically takes this view, and I'm forgetting now what his definition of personhood is, but his definition of personhood is reliant upon somebody's ability to experience pleasure in relationship. And by that definition, the very young and the very old are not people, and therefore it is ethical to murder them. So, you know, within that construct, it's like, without God, you get really weird definitions like this. With God you get a definition like, well, a person is. Is a creation of God that I am not allowed to violate it, because it's God that we're talking about here. And one should be very careful when thinking about violating God.

[48:02] Michael: Which is interesting too, because there's this thing that is built into that idea is like, you know, if you're built in the image of God, there's also that part where we also have to distinguish between, you know, if something has been violated in a. In a social setting, then what is the punishment for that? And I think that's something that we have to work through with. Kind of like fear and trembling is like. Is like. You know, some of these things are arbitrary as far as, like, oh, this person got put away for 10 years. This person got away for two years and 30 years. And it's like, what if that person changes in a year, six months? Does he deserve to be there for 30 years? You know, or what if this person never changes? Do they deserve to get out and then go cause havoc on society in general? And I think that's something that we have that we approach in such a. Well,

[48:57] Matt: but that's so hard too. It's like, well, how can you tell that someone has changed? I mean, maybe it's It's a similarly difficult thing to answer the question, what is holy? You know, what does it mean? What are the implications of a person being made in God's image? Well, you might say, okay, well, who is God? Well, I'm not really sure. What does it mean for him to be holy? I don't really know. Well, this person was made in whatever that is. So maybe you should be cautious about violating the sacred and the holy in this individual. And so, you know, there are times when I think society needs to or has to impose consequences on social behavior. But then we all hope that that person can change and be redeemed and be offered redemption by society. But what does it mean for someone to have changed? Again, it's like, I don't really know, but we have to honor the part of that person that is made in the image of God, which we don't know or understand very well. But to offer them redemption in the, you know, what is it? The. It's like the benefit of the doubt. And again, that's another concept that I think only comes with a concept, comes downstream of a concept of God. So what does that mean to have the benefit of doubt? Our whole justice system is built on that. Innocent until proven guilty. Yeah,

[50:38] Michael: it's about to go there. Yeah.

[50:40] Matt: It's like, why would we do that? Because you should be very cautious when dealing with something sacred and holy that. Or something made in the image of something sacred and holy that you don't understand.

[50:58] Michael: Yeah, yeah, I kind of. I really love that. It's like, you know, and that does mean that sometimes people that are. Have violated something really sacred will continue into society. But we're so cautious about that because it's. It's.

[51:17] Matt: Well, who was it that said it is better that a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted?

[51:23] Michael: Yeah. I don't know who said that, but I

[51:25] Matt: feel like it was, you know,

[51:27] Michael: like one of

[51:27] Matt: the founding fathers,

[51:28] Michael: Benjamin Franklin or something like that. Yeah, probably.

[51:31] Matt: I mean, that that represents a healthy dose of caution when it comes to violating something holy. It's like,

[51:43] Michael: well, even like Jesus talks about this is like, do not judge lest you be judged.

[51:46] Matt: Yeah.

[51:47] Michael: You know, there's this part, like, you know, be careful how you judge because, like, in the way that you judge, you will be judged.

[51:54] Matt: Well, and it's not only that. It's like, what is the story of the prostitute? They. The people bring this prostitute, the Pharisees bring this prostitute to Jesus and they want a stoner.

[52:07] Michael: Yeah.

[52:08] Matt: And, you know, nobody Argues that she isn't a prostitute. That's not really up for grabs. And Jesus sort of reframes it and says, yet let ye with.

[52:19] Michael: Yeah. He without sin casteth the cast

[52:21] Matt: first stone. And everybody's just kind of, oh, shit. Yeah. Do I really want my sin revealed? Because what am I guilty of? I'm, you know, I think most of us live lives of sort of forgetting about our sins, forgetting about what we're guilty of. It's like, oh, it's not that big of a deal, but if it's all exposed all at once, we, you know, we might be destroyed, even just sort of psychologically.

[52:50] Michael: Yeah, Yeah. That's really fascinating. I mean, I had something when you were talking about that you're tickling some strings.

[53:11] Matt: Tickling my mind strings.

[53:14] Michael: Well, I think I had along the lines of do not judge lest you be judged. Oh, that's what it was. Part of it is I feel like I've experienced that in my life in a way that, like, I have a certain standard, and I. I know that I judge people by the standard I have, and then when I see I don't even live up to my own standard.

[53:37] Matt: Yeah.

[53:38] Michael: And not only do I judge other people, then I'm also judging myself because I fall short of that standard, whatever it might be. You know, it's like maybe waking up at a certain hour or a certain regiment that I have, or, you know, at certain times I have a certain gung ho. Ness about my. My abilities, you know, or I'm functioning at a higher level than I usually do. And then when I don't function at that level and I judge other people by that higher, and I don't, you know, I don't acknowledge that I actually fall short of that also. And. And so I think there's. There's something about. Like Paul talks about in Romans. It's like I do not understand what I do for what I want to do, I do not do. But what. I hate this. I do. And it's like. It's like he sees that same part in him, that he wants to do these good things, but he also sees how he falls short. So it's like that conundrum in that space of like, you're acknowledging that there actually is something good, something sacred, something holy. But I think that's why most people are afraid or don't want to acknowledge things that are good or sacred is because it also exposes how you are also not that.

[54:56] Matt: Jordan Peterson says every ideal becomes a judge.

[54:58] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[55:00] Matt: Because the moment that you specify an ideal the moment you see the distance between it and yourself, and that's a judge.

[55:08] Michael: Yeah,

[55:09] Matt: and which is why a lot of people don't specify goals because they don't want to specify the terms of their own failure. There's something about judgment that I want to maybe we can go just a few minutes on. Because in the same way that the word discrimination has become sort of a naughty word, I think us sort of modern culture people tend to think the same thing about the word judgment. And you read a passage like, judge not lest you be judged, and it's easy to think, well, yeah, you shouldn't judge. You shouldn't be judgmental. Just like we think, well, you shouldn't discriminate. But I don't think that that's the right takeaway, because in the case of discrimination, we've extrapolated something very real and very wrong, which is arbitrary racial discrimination, and said all discrimination is wrong. And that's not true. You cannot. You cannot function in your life without discriminating. You can't build a company or a sports team. You can't choose a romantic partner. You can't, you know, decide where to eat without discriminating.

[56:31] Michael: Yeah,

[56:32] Matt: and the same is true of judgment that it isn't that you shouldn't judge, it's that you should be careful about how you judge. And if you're about to, you know, and if you're about to stone a prostitute, which hopefully you're not, you know, it's like, okay, are you willing to be judged in return on similar terms?

[56:57] Michael: Oh, wow.

[56:58] Matt: And if you're not, then maybe you shouldn't exercise your judgment here. You know, I think the same is true of the sort of modern mob dynamics of social cancellation. Or, for example, to use a specific thing, the case of Derek Chauvin and George Floyd. I mean, Derek Chauvin was convicted in the court of public opinion. And I think you should be very careful about the court of public opinion. It blows in the wind. It's not based upon evidence. It isn't based upon expertise. I think that's why our justice system is so important, is we need to be able to say, look, I'm not going to judge here. I'm not qualified. We're going to put this in the hands of someone that we trust has spent many, long, long years thinking about what justice actually looks like within our legal system and can adjudicate the story that happened here and look at all of the evidence and make a decision about the fate of this man's Life. And I think that's another example where it's like, no, we shouldn't judge. We should let the judge judge. But there are many times. It's like, you know, this with. If you have kids, so many times in your life where you do need to exercise judgment. It's like your kids come to you with a fight. I don't know what's going on. But the solution is not for me to just sort of step out of the thing here. I can let you all duke it out. I need to make a judgment. Who's been right, who's been wrong? What are the consequences that's necessary to the functioning of family relationships. And in that case, that is my domain, and that is my authority. And I should. And I shouldn't do that haphazardly. I should take that job as a father really seriously. You know, what do I need to learn and understand in order to be a good judge for my kids?

[59:09] Michael: Especially, like, what are you teaching them if you don't adjudicate? You know,

[59:13] Matt: Right.

[59:14] Michael: Hey, what you said to your brother was really mean. What you did to what you said to your sister was not right. Like, you know, and then they. They learn, like, oh, hey, actually, this was something that violated something. I don't know what.

[59:29] Matt: Yeah, well, maybe the takeaway is like, you have to discriminate. You have to have judgment. You have to be. And you should strive to have good judgment. But in both cases, I think the caution is that you should be careful about that and humble to the fact that you are also subject to judgment. And so have that humility and take that caution.

[59:58] Michael: And to admit when you're wrong. Yeah, yeah,

[60:02] Matt: well. And it's like, Yeah, to admit when you're wrong. I think this was another thing that I got via Jordan Peterson. He did this gospel series where he and a panel of, like, eight people walked through the gospels and talked about them. It was really fascinating. There were atheists on the panel, Jews on the panel, all kinds of, you know, priests on the panel.

[60:36] Michael: Yeah, Scholars. Yeah,

[60:37] Matt: yeah. And it wasn't Peterson. It was one of the other ones, pointed something out about the story of Peter and Judas. And so Judas betrays Jesus. Right. Turns him in, and then Peter betrays Jesus. Peter denies that he knows who he is. So, you know, in our grand scheme of things, I'm asking the question, okay, who is God? And God says who he is and says, do you believe I am who I say I am? And Peter at the last hour says, no, I don't know anything about him. Betrays Jesus. Judas realizes what he's done and he's so distraught about it that he goes and he hangs himself. Peter realizes what he's done and he's so distraught about it, he throws himself at Jesus feet and apologizes, says, I was wrong. And someone pointed out that this is a recapitulation and a continuation of the story of Cain and Abel because Cain betrays his ideal. His ideal is represented as his perception of his brother who has everything that he wants. Everything's going well for his brother, everything's going wrong for Cain and he murders his brother. He can't stand the ideal because the ideal becomes a judge. And so he gets rid of the ideal. And the question is, well, if you have betrayed the ideal and gotten rid of the judge in order to sort of relieve your own pressure from that judgment, what can be done? And the playing out of Peter and Judas are the two paths that can be done. It's like you either go die,

[62:40] Michael: whether spiritually or physically or emotionally or whatever,

[62:44] Matt: or all of the above, or you admit that you were wrong and you throw yourself at the feet of the ideal again and say, I acknowledge you, I know you. I accept your answer to my question of who are you? And you sort of, what does it mean to apologize? It's to re. Acknowledge, it's to recommit. To repent is to turn the opposite direction. You know, Peter turns away from Jesus and leaves. To repent is to turn the opposite direction back towards the thing. And I thought, yeah, just when you said to admit when you're wrong, that's to take Peter's course and not Judas's. Because when you don't admit that you're wrong, there can no, there can not. There can be no life. Well,

[63:48] Michael: we see this in movies all the time. Is like whenever someone doesn't repent or say that they're wrong and they double down, it's like you see almost like that judgment almost intensifies. And the more that you double down and turn, keep turning away. It's like there's a ramification to not being repentant. And I think we all experience that, but we definitely see that in the movies in all respects. It's like, just stop, just stop. You know, at some point along the way you just need, if not you're going to

[64:24] Matt: just yelling at the blonde teenager in the horror movie like, don't go in there,

[64:28] Michael: don't go in there,

[64:29] Matt: just stop.

[64:31] Michael: I mean, even see that in, in little ways where, like the goodwill hunting where you know, he's carrying all this stuff, and this is maybe not repentance, but he's like, hey, it's not your fault. But you see him carrying something and he's like, no, no, it's fine. Whatever, you know? But there's something that's blocking him from moving into the future until he acknowledges that, like, it was something that was done to him. So it wasn't even something he needed to repent of. It was just, like, he needed to kind of acknowledge that, hey, something was done to you that was unholy, that was not sacred. It's not your fault. And once he.

[65:08] Matt: I almost want to, like, tear up just thinking about the power of that scene when Robin Williams hugs him and says that,

[65:14] Michael: oh, it's so powerful. And then you see the release.

[65:16] Matt: Yeah.

[65:17] Michael: Whenever he's like, releases also just forgive the person that that happened to. It's like, it's not my fault.

[65:24] Matt: And Matt Damon's acting in that scene. Just. Kudos. Uhhuh. Well, I feel like I kind of want to wrap this up. And then. I think what I want to say, I think the question, who is God? Once it's really asked, becomes one of the most animating questions possible. And I love the question. And the answers to that question are just unfucking believable. You know, it's like that your example of the whole holy, holy, holy. It's like, holy shit.

[66:20] Michael: I

[66:20] Matt: mean, they really are. I mean, and it's not. It's not necessarily unbelievably good. I mean, it is in a way, but it's shocking in the way that it's good. You know, it's like, I love in the Story of Narnia, when the children first glimpse Aslan. And I think it's. Lucy asks, I don't know, who was there? Tumnus or someone. You know, it's like, is he safe? Because he's a lion, right? He's fairly terrifying. And I think the answer is, oh, Lord. Not I don't think said Lord, but like, oh, no, of course he isn't safe, but he's good.

[67:00] Michael: Well, see, I think that's why my interpretation of that scene, and I think I want to say it's Ezekiel, is because I just imagine them experiencing this, like, how terrifying God is and then how loving God is, and then how terrifying God is and how loving. And it's just like going from that those extremes would just like. That's the only words I can really. Motherfucker. What the. What the hell? You know, it's like, it Would just, like, incite, like, lots of bad language for me.

[67:29] Matt: And I'll just add a quick story about my dad here, because this story for me happened, gosh, was in high school, so over 25 years ago. They're so old. I know. I was a youth leader at our local Baptist church. And one of the responsibilities of a high schooler who's a youth leader within the thing is, like, I think, like, maybe once a year or once a semester, you had to give a, like, a sermon kind of thing. And I was assigned to give this talk on the unchangeability of God, which is a really fascinating

[68:14] Michael: subject. It's pretty small for, like, it

[68:16] Matt: was a really fascinating subject. And. Which is. It's also a fascinating claim, the idea that God is unchangeable. Because when you read the story of God as it's laid out in the Bible, he seems to change quite a bit. But this is a great question to ponder. So I remember talking to my dad about it, and we would go in the mornings sometimes and have coffee and breakfast, and we were talking about this, and he said, I want to point out to you this story in Exodus where Moses has led his people from slavery directly into the desert. And for 40 years, they're wandering around aimless, right? They're getting bitten by snakes. They're, like, having a hell of a time out there. And they start losing faith in God and start building false idols. And they're sending Moses up into the mountains to get word from God, and all they get is just more rules. And at some point, Moses goes and talks to God and basically says, I don't know what to do here. Things are falling apart. Everybody's fed up with you, with me. And what God says to Moses is, I want you to go down, take your sword, and draw a line in the sand and say, anyone on God's side, cross the line. Anyone who doesn't cross the line, you're to kill them. Women, children, animals, everything. And my dad says basically, like, that's God. The fuck do you do with that? That's God. And the claim is that that's the same God that is God today. He's not changed. So God's a pretty terrifying motherfucker. You know, He's Denzel Washington and American Gangster. In a certain sense, he can be that way. So what I took from that is like, well, shit, you need to be real careful dealing with this God. And, you know, I think that's the same kind of care, to be full of care when you're exercising Judgment. When you're exercising your discrimination, when you are dealing with someone who is said to be made in that person's image, to be made in God's image, you got to be careful, use caution, be humble. And I took a lot of. I still, to this day, take a lot of hope from that, because in some sense, it's like, well, okay, who's God? Oh, really? He's a badass who will take decisive action. Who's God? Oh, really? He's dangerous when he needs to be. Oh, right. But he's also loving and forgiving and seems to want to have a relationship with me. If I'm to take the stories of the Bible seriously, that's what rings true. This dangerous motherfucker wants to have a relationship with me. And isn't it better to have Aslan on your side, who isn't safe but he's good, than to have someone who is safe and good or someone who is safe and isn't good? It's like, I would rather have the lion who loves me than anything else.

[72:18] Michael: Yeah. Which is interesting. There's. I feel like, as you meet different people that have kind of different relationships with God, like, I think what I experience through Alison is God's tenderness. And I think that's something that I find, like, God meets people in different ways and in different seasons and emphasizes different aspects of himself. And we see that throughout the. The whole Bible is like. And how God relates to people. Sometimes he comes tenderly, and sometimes he comes very intensely. And I think that's the part that, like, I love how you've kind of, like, painted that picture of, like, you kind of don't know.

[73:01] Matt: Yeah.

[73:01] Michael: And yet he always shows up in the right form. And that's. I think that's the. I think that's kind of the beautiful thing about just engaging in this dialogue is, like, you don't really know. And so it's like part of the adventurous is finding out

[73:23] Matt: totally. Who is God around? And find out.

[73:26] Michael: Yeah, totally engage. You know, it's like

[73:30] Matt: when it really does seem to be something of the character of God, that he's like. He wants that. He's like, come on, let's go around and find out.

[73:37] Michael: Totally. I mean, I've always found that, for me, my relationship with God is, like, more that kind of like. Like, I was telling someone how I was coming back from this certain situation, and I was just yelling at God, tell him to fuck off, and all this kind of stuff. And then he. And then he ends up kind of giving me something at the end of it that was super tender and basically I was like, oh wow, this is cool. Like I can tell you to fuck off and you're way bigger than that.

[74:05] Matt: You could take it.

[74:06] Michael: You can take it. Yeah. And like at the end of it, like give me something that was just like oh wow, damn. I'm so wrong, man. So anyways, it's good stuff.

[74:20] Matt: All right, let's leave it there.

[74:21] Michael: Yeah,

[74:24] Matt: I love big unanswerable questions and I hope we continue to have the just we as a people continue to have the courage to ask them and to around and find out. So

[74:37] Michael: yeah, that's why we go to the shores.

[74:39] Matt: Hey, been a good one. Cheers. Love y' all out there.

[74:48] Michael: It's like replace Jesus. Wwd. What would Jesus do? Wwjd? Yeah, with like fifth fellow Jesus. That.