What shall we do (with Alison Vaclav)?

[0:21] Michael: We got whiskey. We got microphones.

[0:23] Michael: And it's on. We got everything we need.

[0:27] Alison: It's an extra person. Throwing off the dynamics.

[0:31] Matt: Quit throwing off my dynamics. Okay. I think we have everything.

[0:36] Michael: Yeah. Why is there so light over there? Got your cube melted?

[0:43] Matt: Yeah.

[0:43] Michael: All right. All right. Matte light.

[0:46] Matt: Mat light. Okay. Hey, to

[0:49] Michael: the shores. To

[0:49] Matt: the shores.

[0:50] Michael: Yeah.

[0:50] Alison: Cheers.

[0:51] Matt: Cheers. Welcome, Alison.

[0:53] Alison: Thank you. Good to be back.

[0:55] Michael: This is Mia Sposa for those new listeners.

[1:00] Matt: Yeah. And for new listeners, I'm Matt McCloskey. And you're Michael Vaclav.

[1:04] Michael: Yeah.

[1:05] Matt: And we have Alison Vaclav with us tonight.

[1:08] Alison: Hello, fellas.

[1:09] Matt: Traditionally, some of our best episodes are when you're sitting in that chair.

[1:12] Michael: Yeah.

[1:13] Alison: Best episode, by what measure?

[1:15] Michael: People listening.

[1:18] Matt: My own personal enjoyment.

[1:20] Alison: Okay. Well, thank you.

[1:21] Matt: But you haven't been on in, what, since my youngest daughter was born, I think was the last time you were here. Is that right?

[1:29] Alison: I feel like maybe earlier in the year, beginning of the year maybe.

[1:34] Matt: Oh, that's good.

[1:35] Alison: It's been a minute. It's been too long.

[1:37] Matt: Yeah.

[1:37] Alison: There's been a real, like, dearth in that presence in my life, don't you think?

[1:43] Michael: I see this old guy every week, so

[1:47] Matt: I feel like people have been calling me old lately. What's going on with that?

[1:51] Alison: Age? Midlife.

[1:54] Matt: The truth. The truth. I do feel like I look a lot. Yeah. I have a boyish haircut.

[2:02] Alison: No. It does make you look younger.

[2:04] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

[2:06] Alison: But is that the goal these days? Is it the goal to look younger? I feel like the world's always telling me we're supposed to look younger.

[2:13] Matt: Right. It's not my own personal goal. I just wanted my hair out of my face. I had long hair for long time.

[2:21] Michael: Yeah. Occasionally you'll cut it pretty short, but I think this the shortest.

[2:25] Matt: The shortest it's been in a long time. Yeah. And I also trimmed my beard, which is weird.

[2:31] Michael: Like that baby face boy haircut.

[2:35] Alison: Oh, it's good. I saw those pictures earlier. Your. Your beard was like.

[2:39] Matt: It's pretty full.

[2:40] Alison: Yours was, too. You were.

[2:41] Michael: Yeah, I turned mine down.

[2:42] Alison: Okay. Have you ever considered shaving it off all the way?

[2:47] Matt: I did briefly the other day consider doing that

[2:50] Alison: and

[2:51] Matt: concluded

[2:51] Alison: no.

[2:52] Matt: Ultimately, I decided that it wasn't worth going out and buying a razor for, because I don't have a razor.

[2:58] Michael: Yeah.

[2:59] Matt: I think the last time I shaved my face clean was 2014.

[3:02] Michael: Wow. I feel like. I feel like there's earlier than that that you did that over, at least since COVID

[3:09] Matt: I haven't done it since COVID No.

[3:10] Michael: Okay. I guess maybe it was such a shocking thing that I just kind of. The

[3:13] Matt: last time I did it. Yeah. Still shocked.

[3:16] Michael: What is it?

[3:18] Alison: You haven't had a clean shaven face since, what, 2002?

[3:26] Michael: Yeah.

[3:26] Matt: I saw somebody talking about how the evolutionary reason for men having beards is that they're protective against blows to the face. And because we were evolved to fight, to go out and defend our women and children. Wow. We grow beards. And they tested it. I can't remember how they did it, but it does protect. You get fewer lacerations on your face when you're punched, if you have a beard.

[3:51] Alison: Oh, well, there you go.

[3:52] Matt: Yeah.

[3:53] Alison: Check.

[3:53] Michael: We should do a fight club. And you. We test it out.

[3:56] Matt: Test it out.

[3:57] Michael: All right. Bad. Hit me.

[3:59] Alison: It was already tested. You don't need to do that.

[4:01] Matt: Somebody already did

[4:02] Michael: it.

[4:04] Matt: So we were kind of starting an interesting conversation before we started rolling. You want. Can you get us back into that, Michael?

[4:12] Michael: Yeah. I'll stumble around and y' all make sense of it. Okay. Like we do every night,

[4:17] Matt: as we do around here, as

[4:18] Michael: we do right here now. We were just talking about language, and some of this comes from a lot of different parts, like Matt and I have been thinking about. And as far as Peterson talks about, when you're driving and you see a bunch of houses on your side, you don't think or look at the houses. You just kind of label them as houses. Kind of like a symbol that is put to the side, but you don't actually experience them. And then Also, like, Iain McGilchrist and, like, how you pay attention to something, like, you give attention to something. And sometimes when you label an object that it just becomes that thing, and you don't really pay attention to it anymore. It just becomes more of a symbolic representation of the thing itself. And. And then Chase Hughes, as just recently kind of like, he just wrote a book that's coming out, I think, right now or sometime really soon, talking about language as a parasite. And that kind of got me thinking back on a lot of the conversations we've had and that, you know, I was going back and just kind of looking at my water bottles on my desk, and I was like, oh, that's my water bottle. And then I stopped, and I stopped thinking or trying to label it and just kind of experience it. And it's like all these things, like. Like, oh, wow, I put water in that. And just, like, all these sort of, like, experiences but that just put.

[5:46] Matt: The mundane becomes profound.

[5:48] Michael: Yeah, the mundane becomes profound. And it's just like, how many of those things, like, you know, Matt or Alison, like, those are labels that put on you. And so I kind of, like, have this idea of you guys, but until I really experience you, it kind of. It's kind of a label that you kind of. It's helpful. You know, there's a helpful part of that. It's like, okay, hey, this label kind of represents a certain idea I have about this person. And I think, like, last night, whenever our daughter came into our room last night right before going to bed, and she stepped in, and she was just sort of like, hey, I think I might be stressed. And sort of like, the label of Hannah went away, and I was sort of like, oh, wait a minute. I'm experiencing something more than the label Hannah. Because Hannah doesn't get stressed. She doesn't have problems. Like, you know, that's kind of like what you think of her is, like, this person who just goes along, gets along, and life's okay for her. And then for her to say she's stressed all of a sudden, like, kind of pops you out of her. Your label of Hannah into, like, okay, who is this girl? Like, what's going on with you? And she came in and just kind of laid out, and you kind of just see, like, oh, wow, like, she's a real person. Like, she has, like, fears and frustrations and uncertainties. And as she's kind of laying that about, you just kind of like, you experience her anew and a fresh and in a deeper way.

[7:16] Matt: That's another thing that Peterson talks about. He says that you. You think you know what a car is until you get into yours and it stops working. And then you realize you have no idea what this machine is. You don't know anything about it. So as long as things are functional, you don't really have to pay much attention to them beyond sort of the basic category in which they live. The house analogy that you were referencing earlier, let me replace that with one of my own example, because I wasn't fully following the meaning of it. But I think what it means is something like, up until this year, I went to Lamar Middle School twice a day, every school day for eight years via the same route. So I drive up and down Burnett Road, which is so funny, because over the years, I got more and more crotchety about it. I was just like, why don't they fix these damn potholes? And, like, burnett Road is ruining my suspension. But you Know, that's a lot of time spent driving that same route back and forth for eight years. And thank God I'm done with that for a little while now. And my, my daughters are now driving themselves to school, which is amazing.

[8:26] Alison: Yes, it is.

[8:27] Matt: It's, like, so great. But every once in a while I would have this experience where I would be driving down Burnett and I would see something and I would go, I don't think I've ever seen that before. Has that always been there? I'm questioning myself. I'm like, I've been on this road basically four times a day for eight years. How could I never have seen that? And that's because everything becomes invisible once it's in its proper category until it breaks out of the category somehow. And that could be your car breaking down. It could be some small change in the, your surrounding area. You know, like the shops on Burnett. One closes and another opens or something. And all of a sudden you see everything fresh and new for the first time in, you know, a long time.

[9:21] Michael: I think that's kind of where we get to, like, kind of what we're talking about, you were talking about is sort of like poetry. I think that's why poetry. So it's naming something, but it's very obtuse in how it names something and that you don't. It's not really naming it directly. It's kind of explain, kind of describing a feeling of something or an idea of something. But it's, it's trying not to, like, outwardly name it. You know, like, this is a rose and it's famous. And, you know, you give these to people, you know.

[9:57] Matt: It's a pretty shitty poem.

[9:58] Michael: It's a pretty shitty poetry poetry. Why do you like poetry?

[10:07] Alison: I mean, I don't know that I'm very knowledgeable about poetry. I do really like haikus, though, because they're trying to, in the. Using the most concise language, conveyor an experience which is beyond words. And just to endeavor to do that, I think, is really beautiful. I'm still a little bit hung up on the title of that book. Language is a Parasite.

[10:47] Michael: Yeah.

[10:48] Matt: Yeah. Can we pull at that a little bit? Because I, that doesn't resonate to me.

[10:51] Michael: I, I, I, again, he. It hasn't come out. I gotta, I got an advanced copy of it, but I haven't read it. He kind of just did a little bit of. I don't really have a good.

[11:01] Matt: This is coming from the Chase Hughes conference you went to. Yeah,

[11:04] Alison: yeah,

[11:04] Michael: yeah. Just maybe give, like, A really bastardized version of it is that language has kind of, like, basically disassociated us from our environment and that we don't really experience things. And that language is basically moving us further away from the things themselves. And in that sense, like, that's probably as far as I can go. As far as, like, how. I don't know why it's a parasite or it just kind of makes sense to me. Like, I can see, like, how once you name something, then you don't have to. You don't have to think about it. You

[11:41] Matt: don't have to attend to it anymore.

[11:43] Alison: But sometimes that's good. That's really positive. Like with, you know, emotional regulation. Right. The phrase they always say is name it to tame it. So if you're having some kind of emotion that's overwhelming you, being able to name it helps it.

[12:02] Matt: Well, to that end, I don't think we could physically survive without naming things, because if you were surrounded, if. If all of your surroundings were unknown to you, no categories, no names, you would be in a state of overwhelm and terror constantly.

[12:20] Alison: Right. You

[12:21] Matt: know, and that's kind of what a dream is like. Right? That's what a nightmare is. It's like nothing's recognizable.

[12:27] Michael: Yeah, that's the part. I don't know how far he takes it because that's. I see the power of naming something.

[12:34] Matt: Well, I think the place I would take it is there's this quote that's been banging around in my head for many years, which is that language is the barrier to all knowledge. And I cannot find who to attribute that quote to. And so I've just decided I'm going to start taking it for myself. I must have made it out of

[12:52] Michael: my class,

[12:53] Matt: but it immediately felt intuitive to me that language is the barrier to all knowledge. And I think it's in multiple ways. And one of those ways is you necessarily must name and then partially discard things in order to function in your life. So whatever the full complexity of that thing which you've named and somehow discarded your attention from, that's all knowledge that you can no longer get at because you've given it a word. And in the other sense of it, it's almost like we're lulled into some amount of hubris. Like, to the extent that I think I can understand something, or maybe the measure that I used to decide whether or not I understand something is with language. And so if I have sufficient language for something, then I think I have command over it. I think I have Mastery of it. I think I know what it is without taking the proper humility to say no. Actually, I really don't know much about what that is. And so you don't. You stop pursuing new knowledge because you've got the language to stand in for your understanding.

[14:04] Michael: It makes me think of, like, language as a tool. And once, like. And then sometimes we elevate language to almost like a God status, and then all of a sudden, like, you no longer are using it in its usefulness. You're now sort of like making idols of the world around you.

[14:25] Matt: Oh, totally. What's that quote? That evil is the spirit which considers its knowledge sufficient.

[14:35] Michael: Complete.

[14:35] Matt: Complete. That is exactly what we're talking about here. I wonder if that's what he means by language as a parasite. It parasitizes your ability to get to truth, to get to God, really. I mean, the Luciferian character is the intellectual, the character who thinks he knows everything. He needs to know that his knowledge is sufficient for himself. And because of that, he's removed from God. To say that in another way, like, to remove from the religious context, it's like, I can't get to know you if I think I know you. Like, in order for me to get to know you, I have to admit that I don't know you very well. I don't know you sufficiently.

[15:25] Alison: Yeah, that's hard to do. Especially in the relationships you're closest with.

[15:32] Michael: Totally

[15:33] Alison: the hardest. Yeah, I had a thought, and now it's gone.

[15:40] Michael: Well, I think that with Hannah, I mean, that was. The thing is, like, you know, I felt like I knew Hannah, and then last night, she kind of was like, whoa, no, I don't know you. You know, you have a whole world inside you that. That I don't experience or know or understand. And I have to. We have to sit with you and experience that.

[16:04] Alison: I mean, she risked vulnerability that she does not usually do.

[16:09] Michael: Yeah.

[16:09] Alison: And it was precious to me. She has been more like that since this semester. She started a public school, and so she's facing a whole lot of challenges that she hasn't had to face and really stepping out into a world for the first time without her family

[16:29] Matt: or her siblings.

[16:30] Alison: Her siblings. Right. So she's always been at school with her siblings. So now she's the only one not, you know, she's the only one at public school. And so it's a really brave year for her. And I think she's encountering lots of internal challenges and becoming aware of her, I think, anxiety that she carries. And, I mean, it's like a mini panic attack. It's like, what's happening? Basically. Am I doing bad?

[17:03] Matt: No, you're doing great.

[17:07] Alison: So it's. I'm really grateful for her courage and being vulnerable with us because as she's sharing and trying to grapple with these feelings, it's like we can come alongside and help her name what she's experiencing and not necessarily try and fix it for her. But anyway, it's just so beautiful when she's willing to let it. Let you peek inside. She's not a transparent girl. She's kind of a lot like you, babe. Let's be honest. Let's be honest.

[17:45] Michael: Well, I think that's the cool thing is it's like just thinking about her. When you do have siblings that are going before you, it's like they kind of pave away. There's a safety that's in that. And then whenever you don't have that network, it's like she's experiencing a lot of new things and she's having to make her way in those things. And so you can kind of see the value of, like, family or tribe that you walk through things with somebody because they help you. And she's kind of having to make a new tribe at the school a new. Yeah, I would just say tribe and to walk together with. And, you know, you kind of see her doing that and also seeing, you know, her frustrations with some of those people that are not kind of willing to walk with her in that area and just how. How it is. It's like you do need people around you that will help you navigate the world. And it's hard to know who to trust or who do you share, like, mindedness with because you can't. You can't really navigate things something with somebody that doesn't share your same, you know, goals in life. Because even she's talking about, like, you know, there's a lot of people there that are not really interested in grades, you know, but that's something that she values. And she kind of gravitated to some girls that were a little more like, want to make good grades. And, you know, I think that's. There's something about who you surround yourself with also forms your. Your reality. And. And you kind of start naming things together, and that's kind of how you form a community. You know, you name things together.

[19:34] Alison: And nicknames. It's like a. There's like real intimacy in that. That. And endearing. I would think maybe it can be the opposite of endearing if you don't like. I mean, I guess the opposite of that would be like, bullying and name calling, but. Yeah.

[20:02] Matt: How do you think we navigate the issue of trust when you're talking about learning to trust someone? How do we figure that out?

[20:12] Michael: That's a really good question.

[20:14] Matt: Because it seems like there's something about the issue of attention and naming things. And I think especially for younger siblings, like, I'm the oldest of my group of siblings, so I didn't experience it this way, but I saw them generally following in my footsteps. You know, I was in bands. They got into band. I was doing this club, so they did this club, you know, and inevitably they ended up going, oh, I'm only doing this because my brother did it. I'm gonna go find what I want to do, and did other things. And I think that was a really good thing. But I think when you're making new relationships, it's really hard to do without setting the default assumption, like you're making a new friend. I say to the. I basically make the default assumption that we have the same assumptions about life. We have the same assumptions about what etiquette is, about what politeness is, that you mean the same thing when you say a word that I mean when I say that word. And then especially in, like, middle school, early high school, all of a sudden you get slammed upside the head because somebody betrays you. They betray you because. And then all of a sudden, all of those default assumptions that were going sort of unchecked and unattended all come into focus. You're like, oh, so you didn't really mean that when you said that. And you didn't mean what I thought you meant when you said this thing. And all of a sudden, you kind of become, like, hyper vigilant. This is the way anybody acts after betrayal. As you become hyper vigilant, everything is suspect. And this is kind of like a peek at the version of the world that if you can't name things, everything is suspicious. After betrayal, everything is suspicious. Even your own memories are suspicious. Even your own concept of who you are, if the material is deep enough. And that's an incredibly taxing on the body and an incredibly exhausting.

[22:24] Alison: Who betrayed you, Matt? I feel like there's a story back there.

[22:30] Matt: Well, my ex wife. Yeah,

[22:33] Alison: okay. Well, that one. I was wondering if there was, like, a middle school.

[22:39] Matt: No, I don't remember anyone in particular, but, you know, I do remember being a little bit shocked, especially because my middle school experience was I was homeschooled, and then I Went to public middle school.

[22:51] Alison: That's right.

[22:51] Matt: Alone. Because I didn't have any siblings there with me.

[22:54] Alison: Right.

[22:54] Matt: So I was going from the protection of the pure family unit. We lived on 40 acres. I almost never left the ranch. And then into middle school where. Oh yeah, kids are mean. They make fun of you. They try intentionally to get you to believe stuff that's obvious bullshit, you know.

[23:12] Alison: Right.

[23:12] Matt: And I got, you know, sort of taken advantage a lot of taken advantage of a lot in that way because I would believe people. My default assumption is that when people tell you something, they're going to be telling you the truth. It took me a long time to realize that I place a very high value on truth and a lot of other people don't place any value on it at all. They don't care whether or not something is true.

[23:36] Alison: Yeah.

[23:36] Matt: They want to use information and language instrumentally to accomplish their own goals.

[23:42] Alison: Yeah. I think I'm interested in that question about trust. I, I suspect that we have different ways of gauging trust based on our own kind of personalities or life experiences. Because for me, in a new, like a new set of people, my willingness to be open is like. If I walk into a room, brand new people I've never met, my willingness to be open is very much going to be based on a body experience. Like a felt. It's

[24:25] Matt: like a feeling in your body.

[24:26] Alison: Like an energetic. I'm like somehow gauging your energy or presence in, in my body. And I will have a yes or a no. And if I have a yes, I'm more likely to. If I have that initial yes, I will be quite open and probably more vulnerable than most people. Or transparent. Not vulnerable, transparent. But if I have a no, it's like a hard no. And I'm. I will avoid you. The rest of.

[25:05] Matt: Is this like a conscious mental thought process that you go through or it just sort of clicks in?

[25:11] Alison: It's becoming more conscious as I pay attention to it. I, yeah, I think it's always been there. I just haven't known to. Because it's so instinctual. I haven't known to pay attention. Like it's going to happen regardless of whether or not I'm conscious of it. But I think I can bring awareness and mindfulness to that process in myself. And then I have more choice. Right. I can be like, oh, my body is like, my body is giving me a hard no about this person. Do I want to listen to that or do I want to maybe have like a tester, like engagement so

[25:57] Matt: that's interesting. I think I have been trying to more consciously have that conversation with my. Conversation with myself in my head about social experiences probably in the last, like, 10 years, because I think I don't remember what I am on the openness scale, but I think I'm, like, 98th percentile. I'm very open. And I, at some point realized in my life, like, oh, you don't necessarily need to be telling the Uber driver about that. Right. Or, like, you know, like, have a friend who's a Realtor. And I really only talk to him every year or so when he gets to that point on his roster where he, like, calls me up to make sure that we still have a relationship in case I ever want to buy a home. And, you know, not. Not digging on him at all, but, like, you know, just casual relationships like that. Like, I can very easily go into telling somebody all of the details of, like, what's happening in my life. And sometimes after a conversation, I'll be like, that probably wasn't necessary. I didn't need to say all of that. Maybe I need to be a little bit more protective of, like, my personal information or something.

[27:11] Michael: Yeah, it's. It's such an interesting conversation because kind of the. The way I experience both of you is like, I also tell everyone in the sauna is like, yeah, you. You spend a little bit of time with my wife, you'll end up telling your entire, like, deepest, darkest secrets. You do have a way of, like, disarming people. And so I feel

[27:33] Matt: like, like, when you got here and you asked me how I was doing, I said, I haven't seen you in, what, six months?

[27:39] Alison: Yeah,

[27:40] Matt: way too long. And I was. I was like, oh, good, I can just finally tell somebody everything. I just wanted to be like, here's how I'm doing

[27:48] Alison: now. I'm desperate to know. We need to have a whole extra.

[27:52] Michael: Brett starts crying.

[27:54] Matt: Yeah, you really are. You're very disarming and very loving and very safe to be honest with.

[28:03] Alison: Thank you.

[28:04] Matt: Yeah,

[28:04] Alison: I want to be that. I really. I really enjoy being trustworthy, worthy of someone's trust.

[28:18] Michael: But I think you are very sensitive to those who are, like, emotionally dump because you're. You are so willing to, like, listen to people and people feel open with you, but those who have no governor on that and just tell it like.

[28:41] Matt: Yeah. Do you feel like people abuse that? That part of you

[28:48] Alison: in. Not maliciously. I think I'm learning how to. Oh, this is a great phrase. I heard empathy management and how to have boundaries around my own empathetic engagement and how I listen and how deeply I listen. And that's like a new. It's like a revelation to me. Like, oh, I can have boundaries on my empathy. Like, this is fantastic news, because I couldn't before, and so I would end up. Yeah, like, over. Over attending to people. But also. But there's a weird opposite to that. It's like, I can also be, like, extremely averse to people in a weird. And it's. Anyway, there's, like, the two things live in me, and I'm trying to learn how to.

[29:52] Matt: Two wolves.

[29:55] Michael: Yeah. I think that that second part is very rare, though, honestly.

[30:02] Matt: The averse part.

[30:03] Michael: Yeah. I mean, you're very open. I think that's. That's something really beautiful about you. And I think that that other part of being able to withhold is actually, like. Well, like. Like super benefits, you being able to know, okay, hey, I need to not invest that much into this. And that's, like. It's more of a healthy part. It's also healthy for the person that you're engaged with, you know?

[30:31] Alison: Right.

[30:31] Michael: Like, I think that's. It's like, kind of a Both and. Which. Which is interesting. And maybe I'm gonna say this, and I don't know really what. I mean. Like, I talk to a lot of people, and a lot of people share a lot of things with me, but I definitely know that I don't have your same empathy. But I don't know what the difference between those two things are. There's that part where I can pretty much have a conversation and a pretty deep conversation with almost anybody, but I don't also have that same. I feel like when someone has a conversation with you, like, someone might have, like, a revelation, maybe when they talk with me, maybe like. Like, oh, whoa, okay. When they talk with you, it's like, more of, like, a soul. It's more of, like. It's. It's. Maybe it's because. Maybe it's more of, like, a motherly, fatherly kind of. Well,

[31:24] Matt: I feel like you're describing two different kinds of conversations, though.

[31:26] Michael: Okay. Yeah. I didn't know how to, like, to name this.

[31:29] Matt: Well, because I think your. The kinds of conversations that you have and that you're animated to have are. And I don't mean this at all in a negative way. They're transactional. It's about information. It's about insight. It's about understanding concepts and things and. Yeah. Whereas I think the kind of conversation that Alison tends to evoke in People is like when you say, when you ask me how I'm doing, I actually want to tell you how I'm doing. I want to tell you about the state of my soul. I want to tell you about the state of my heart.

[32:03] Alison: Right.

[32:04] Matt: It's less that I want to tell you what's happening in my life and more that I want to. I want to share my experience of what's happening.

[32:13] Alison: Right.

[32:13] Matt: So I just think it's two different kinds of conversations.

[32:15] Michael: Totally. That makes sense.

[32:16] Alison: I was literally thinking all the way over here, I'm like, I'm just going to go in and just ask Matt, how's your heart? Just need to get to the point. But what's beautiful, though, about it hurts, friend. But like the kinds of conversations and because people do open up to you and I think that that's because you are very safe. You're not judgmental, you're not emotionally reactive. I mean, someone could say the most unhinged thing to you and you would hear that and just look them in the eye and. No. Which is very safe for people who are not used to experiencing that. And you're curious. So you have a. Like an authentic curiosity. That's not. It's not like. What's the word I'm trying to get at? Violational. It's not like just weird curiosity.

[33:31] Matt: You're making kind of like a rat.

[33:32] Alison: You know, some people just kind of want to dig. They just want the gossip or the detail or like I heard the phrase trauma tourist.

[33:43] Michael: Well, that's a really great.

[33:46] Alison: Yeah. It's like you're not trying to just get the grit out of people. Like, you have genuine curiosity. And I don't think people to having people earn. Ask them in earnest, like about their experiences or why they think the way they think. And

[34:06] Matt: one, to not be reactive. Like, I have heard that I have had and still do have relationships in my life where I have to do a little bit of math about how much I'm going to share about a certain thing because of the way that it might affect them or the way that they might respond to me. It might make them turned off by me or not want to, you know, talk about other things that we might need to talk about. Right. Yeah. So I'm doing some math about where my filter is going to be. But I don't ever have to do that with you, Michael, because I can tell you we brought this example up somewhat recently. It's like, I can tell you that my dad died and you're just going to Be like, oh, that's interesting talking about that, you know, it's like, not cold, but I can tell you the worst thing that's ever happened to me, and you're going to be okay. Like, you're. It's not going to ruin your day, you know, and you're going to be willing. You're going to be able to have a conversation about it. And so I feel like other people probably have this experience with you is like, they don't. They don't have to do the math of where's my filter need to be set out With Michael, you're safe to have, you know, filtered out and everything's going to be okay.

[35:15] Michael: Well, that might be a little bit different. Like, especially because I just. Even thinking about, like, conversation like you and Alison have versus what I have with you and that, you know, like, I've seen this in so many occasions with us knowing each other for so long. It's like you and I will have the exact same conversation, and you'll have the exact same conversation with Alison, and it's completely different. It's the same information being communicated, but in a different way.

[35:47] Matt: Isn't that, like, another example of language being the parasite or the barrier to all knowledge? It's like,

[35:55] Michael: what also comes back to that same idea of, like, the mat I am to you and you are to me, and the mat you are to Alison and she is to you. There's a certain part that she holds that brings out something different out of you than what I bring out of you. It's like, I think that's something that's really. I mean, kind of. Kind of beautiful. I mean, I see that all the time. You know, we haven't done very many dinners lately, but, you know, it's like the type of questions and play that happens at the table is just so interesting. Or even, like with Hannah last night, you know, like, I just see you, like, connecting with her in a way that I'm like, I don't know how to do that, you know, but then also I see, like, there's a certain, like, certainty I. I bring to her, you know, like, a stableness that. That I give, you know?

[36:56] Alison: Absolutely.

[36:57] Michael: And even some, like, more of the. The. I would say even, like, sterner aspects of that, too, you know?

[37:04] Alison: Right.

[37:05] Michael: And. And I think that's. I think that's why we. That's why we need so many different people in our lives that actually care about us, because they care about us. And in different ways, you know, your dad cared about you different from how I cared about you, different, how your mom cares about you. You know, it's like. And somehow that draws that. All those different parts out of us, you know,

[37:25] Matt: I feel like Lewis does a really good job walking through that subject in the Four Loves, when he talks about how, I think he gives the example of, like, if I have a friend, and I want you to know that friend, I might go to you and say, oh, you've really got to meet Karen. And you say, well, what's she like? And I think he kind of points out that there's not a lot of utility in me telling you what she's like, because she's. She's going to be a very different person to you than she is to me. Like, every relationship is specific that me relating to you, my experience with her is not going to be similar really, to your relationship with her once you get to know her. I mean, it's useful to say if few things. Right. Like, you know, you could say she's really fun, or she, you know, you both have an interest in old cars, or, you know, she's very kind. She's easy to talk to. Something. You could say these things. But to go very much deeper isn't all that helpful.

[38:28] Alison: Right. Right.

[38:31] Matt: And every. You know, and when someone passes, each person is losing almost a very different person. I had this. I tried to talk about that at my dad's memorial. I had this line that in my speech that I gave where I said, I really think what's so important about us all gathering is that each of us carries a part of who my dad was. And us all gathering here, we don't gather only to, like, mourn or to celebrate, but to commune with the different parts of a man that we all loved. So when I talk to you, or you, or you or you or you, it's like I'm. I'm getting some piece of my father that I could only get by talking to you.

[39:15] Alison: Oh, that's so beautiful. So beautiful.

[39:21] Michael: Which is so powerful because it's kind of like a Both and how we're talking about these things. It's like language is somewhat limited, and it's also super powerful. And there's a part that it's. It kind of like, it's helpful to hear maybe my experience of you or, you know, Matt and Alison. It's like. But then to hear other people's experience, and then you start to have a fuller and fuller picture of that person. And even the person has a fuller experience of themselves as they learn and see Themselves through other people's eyes. And I think that's something that's really, really powerful. And so you can see this sort of limiting aspect that language can have is sort of like you can have these sort of scripts playing in the background of like, oh, I'm not good, I'm worthless. It's like, whatever it might be. And then someone says the opposite of that. You're like, oh, wait a minute. It's like I have this image of myself that I've sort of named consciously or unconsciously, and how limit. How limiting that is for me to actually adhere to those, to those labels and to see yourself as something more, you know, like. Like when your kid comes and gives you a hug, it's like, oh, wow, I mean something to somebody, you know, I don't know why I mean this to this person, you know, and it's like. But it just kind of breaks you out of like, maybe some things that you. How you perceive yourself or the world around you too. It's like, I think that's something that's helpful to kind of like naming something or labeling something is helpful, but then also that we need those things expanded.

[41:07] Matt: It's almost like strong opinions loosely held.

[41:12] Michael: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I always liked that

[41:15] Alison: I have this experience, I'm thinking just about power, power of language experiences. And recently a friend of ours from college passed and I went to her memorial. And it was, it was interesting because she was Mexican and her family, this was in Fort Worth. And so her family had been in. Come up from Mexico to be with her. And then the rest of her family, her husband's family, they all lived in Fort Worth and so were in this living room. And it was a time for sharing and just being able to, you know, share what, what you wanted. Your love of Valeria, what's her name? And so it was obviously just so heart wrenching. But our friend Sam translated for everyone. And I, I felt I was just really like, washed in gratitude because I mean, to be a translator is difficult, but to translate a room full of grief, like person after person after person. And I just thought, what a gift. Like, what a gift he's giving to this family that we can all access so that each person could have access to that. Each other's love, despite, like, you know, the translation is not perfect and it's coming through someone else's voice, but what a gift he gave. And I just like the emotional labor of that, like, I can't even fathom, but I was astonished. And it felt like I saw the Two elements of this conversation about language, like the power of it, but also the limitation of it. But altogether, it's still a gift.

[43:31] Matt: Oh, yeah,

[43:34] Alison: it's a gift. But it also makes me think about how, like, you know, Christ is the Logos, like the word.

[43:39] Matt: Yeah.

[43:40] Alison: And anyway, so I think maybe that's also why I feel a little like, bristly about that title. Like

[43:47] Matt: the. The Parasite.

[43:49] Alison: Yes.

[43:49] Matt: Yeah. I'll be curious. You gotta report back on that.

[43:51] Alison: I know. Maybe we have to book club that book or something.

[43:55] Michael: Totally.

[43:55] Matt: I think there's something profoundly deep about language, and I think it's obviously that way when you. What are the first words of the Bible? The first words of Genesis is. I don't have it memorized, but it's the Logos. Yeah. And then God brings everything into being with his voice. It's incredibly powerful. Makes me. Reminds me of this. I talk about it all the time, this clip of Christopher Walken talking about the power of language. And he's like, you learn that you can say something, but also say something completely different at the same time. It might be as simple as sitting at the table and you look at somebody and say, pass the salt. But what the other person hears is, I hate you or I love you. There's something going on with communication where not only is it vastly layered, it both communicates more than you're trying to and also less. There's like a paradox at the heart of it.

[45:08] Alison: Well, I mean, language isn't a part of communication. It's. I mean, language and communication are like two different things.

[45:16] Matt: Say more.

[45:18] Alison: Well, I can communicate. I can communicate. There's no language involved.

[45:30] Matt: Just. I have Goose in Top Gun in my head. What were you doing there? Communicating.

[45:37] Michael: Communicating.

[45:41] Alison: Or art or nature

[45:47] Michael: or the way you walk or the way you talk.

[45:50] Alison: On body language.

[45:52] Michael: Yeah, body language, Yeah.

[45:54] Alison: I mean, communication is like a vast experience, and language is part of it,

[46:00] Matt: Right? Totally.

[46:02] Alison: I think that's how I would describe it.

[46:04] Matt: I think we all learned that through Covid, when everybody was using zoom all the time. You just realize how difficult it is to accomplish things using only your voice.

[46:16] Alison: God, I hate zoom.

[46:18] Matt: Yeah.

[46:19] Alison: It's so much

[46:20] Matt: more productive to sit in a room with someone like that bodily experience that you've. You're sharing. What is it that you're sharing? I mean, I think you used the word energy. Like, you walk into a room and decide whether or not you're going to be open. You're. It's a bodily experience of energy.

[46:32] Alison: Right.

[46:33] Matt: What do we mean when we say that?

[46:35] Alison: Well, but didn't they talk about this at the conference? Like the micro expressions and I mean, there's so much like our animal brain is. Is detecting and reading energy and threat way before we're even able to form a thought about.

[46:58] Matt: Reminds me of. There's a really great Radiolab episode, which I don't listen to, that. I don't even know if it still exists. But Radiolab was like a big one of the

[47:06] Alison: early

[47:06] Matt: podcasts.

[47:07] Alison: I hope it does.

[47:08] Matt: And they were talking about this, about how your eyes, your optical nerve, I think, actually maps straight onto your brain stem. And they gave this thought experiment you. Radiolab's great about having sound effects and stuff. It's kind of like. So they give this thought experiment, experiment. It's like you come home, you unlock the door, you throw your keys on the table, and all of a sudden you turn around into the next room and there's a dead, bloody body on the. On the floor. It's like you're going. Your body is going to respond to that before your mind is conscious. Conscious of the fact that there's a dead person. You're going to freeze up and scream before you consciously understand what you're seeing.

[47:50] Alison: Yeah,

[47:51] Matt: it's like we tend to think that our brain, and probably more specifically our left side, the left side of our brain is where knowledge and understanding exists. But it isn't that way experientially, nor is it that way, I think, scientifically. I mean, your. Your gut, I think, has like, more neurons than your entire brain. Mm.

[48:18] Michael: Yeah, something like that.

[48:20] Alison: Right. I mean, it seems. It seems like our mind is where we become conscious. It's where we. Yeah. Create conscious thought. But so much awareness and knowing is happening in our bodies, and I would say in our spirits, too, before our mind is able to catch up. But also that whole process of your body's aware of the dead person, and we have a reaction before we can think and our nervous system is activated, but then we end up creating more suffering because we judge ourselves for these reactions, when actually you can't stop it. It's an involuntary response,

[49:15] Matt: like a cat and a cucumber. Don't want to stop me

[49:20] Alison: seeing those videos. It's like, is that real? I think it is

[49:24] Matt: real. I saw it on the Internet, so I think it's real.

[49:26] Alison: Oh, the Internet. Yeah. Okay. Of course.

[49:30] Matt: Never seen these videos.

[49:31] Michael: Not see this.

[49:33] Matt: Yeah. When a cat sees a cucumber, it flips the out,

[49:36] Michael: really.

[49:36] Alison: Like they'll be. They, like people will lay a cucumber by the cap bowl. And so it walks up to eat and then it sees the cucumber. They're hilarious.

[49:47] Matt: Yeah,

[49:48] Alison: I'm glad for those. We'll

[49:49] Matt: show you some videos.

[49:51] Michael: Good.

[49:51] Matt: So say more about that, like, judging yourself for your involuntary reactions.

[49:59] Alison: I. I mean, I'm not an expert, but I. I have come to know of myself that my body is going to have a reaction. My nervous system, based on my own experience, and it's wiring, and so if I freeze, if I shut down, those are my typical responses. Some people, you know, you're meeting, you know, you want to fight, you want to run. And then I tend to judge myself for that. For that response.

[50:47] Matt: Like, that you shouldn't have had that response, that you should.

[50:50] Alison: Yeah. Like, oh, no, be more

[50:51] Matt: stoic or something.

[50:53] Alison: No, like, for me, it's more of like, no, I should have said something. I should have done this, or I should have done that, or like. But my body has learned to just freeze. That's the quickest way to stay safe, is to freeze and to not do and to not say. And. And so. And then I judge myself for that, which compounds. It's like, that reaction is not a problem. Like, in my. This one phrase, my. In my Al Anon group, she always says, you're not responsible for your first thought. You are responsible for your second thought and your first action. So how that applies to me is, like, it gives space for that involuntary response. Like, my body nervous system response is going to do what it's going to do before I can think about it. So allow that. Then when you have the consciousness, like, you can pause and come back and then choose. And that is like the development of mindfulness.

[52:07] Matt: That's the. That's Viktor Frankl. In between stimulus and response is a space, and in that space is our freedom.

[52:13] Alison: Right. But if I get locked into constantly feeling ashamed or just judging myself for that first reaction, I'm just gonna stay stuck. So, you know, to be able to embrace that and make space for, like, okay, there's a lot more going on in my system before my brain can, like, make a conscious thought and make a decision and allow for that.

[52:52] Matt: How do you think that that squares up or reconciles with the idea of a flow state? You know, because I like that model. You're not responsible for your first thought, but you are responsible for your second thought and your first action. That's great. But I also think it keeps you in sort of a constant state of analysis. And any good conversation, I think, can only occur once the editor in your Mind goes away, and you actually get to first thoughts and first responses.

[53:27] Alison: Right. I think that that particular thing applies to, like, a stressful situation, a new encounter, a. A fresh interaction with this person. It's like, not necessarily, like, constantly. All throughout the day, you're having to evaluate about it. It's just a helpful framework for difficult interactions.

[53:56] Matt: Okay. I think that's good context. There's this book that I really, really like called Writing down the Bones. This woman wrote it about writing. It's a book on writing. And she's a big advocate of journaling and getting to what she calls first thoughts. You want to get the editor in your mind turned off. And the way to do that or one method to do that is the writing without stop method. Get a pen and paper, and you're going to write for 10 minutes. And you are not allowed to stop your hand from moving, which means that you can't be thinking about what you're writing. You have to write what you're thinking. And that's a very different thing. And you get to your first thoughts. And you can actually learn a lot about yourself by doing this. It's kind of terrifying. It takes sort of, like, a massive amount of courage because I think a lot of us don't really want to look at who we really are because it's pretty scary sometimes, especially if we've been avoiding it for a long time. But it's a healthy exercise and think you're. Your point about sort of employing this framework of being responsible not for first thoughts, but for second thoughts. Maybe we have to consciously turn that on when stakes get higher.

[55:16] Alison: Yeah. Yeah. I find it really helpful in going into interactions in relationships that are strained. It feels like grace, like, okay, go have that conversation. Expect that you're gonna have a. You're gonna feel a kind of way about it.

[55:45] Matt: Yeah, There's a lot of wisdom in that, too, because I feel like when you get into a real good fight with someone, you. There's something kind of delicious about going for those first thoughts. It's just like,

[55:59] Alison: I don't fight with people. I don't know what that's like. I feel like I'm missing out, though.

[56:04] Matt: You've never been in a fight?

[56:08] Alison: Not like you're describing. I don't think so.

[56:13] Matt: You ever been?

[56:13] Alison: I didn't have siblings.

[56:15] Matt: Oh,

[56:15] Alison: true fight.

[56:17] Matt: You remember the movie She's Got Mail? No,

[56:22] Alison: I don't think. Tom Hanks

[56:23] Matt: and Meg Ryan. Classic.

[56:25] Michael: You have seen it? We watched it with the kids one time. I think,

[56:28] Alison: okay, I have

[56:29] Michael: Seattle. Oh, no, I'm thinking of Sleepless in Seattle. But you got male. You've Got mail. Yeah,

[56:33] Matt: yeah.

[56:34] Michael: In New York. And

[56:35] Matt: he talks about how sometimes you give someone a real zinger.

[56:39] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[56:41] Matt: Surely you've given someone a zinger.

[56:44] Alison: I've

[56:44] Michael: probably not.

[56:45] Alison: Probably in my mind I have, but not out of my mouth. Okay.

[56:50] Michael: She's Meg Ryan. This situation,

[56:52] Alison: I remember, I'm like, super ultra conflict avoidant. That is high danger zone for me to purposely introduce conflict.

[57:03] Michael: Okay, we gotta watch you Got Mail, because you are. You're definitely Meg Ryan in this situation.

[57:08] Alison: Okay. I probably thought of a lot of good ones, though.

[57:13] Michael: Totally.

[57:14] Alison: And I have to restrain myself.

[57:17] Matt: Yeah,

[57:19] Michael: that was her problems. Like, she always thought of the good ones, like, after the fact.

[57:22] Alison: Yeah. Oh, yes. That happens all the time.

[57:25] Michael: And then the one time she was able to, like, come out in the moment and say, exactly. Oh, Meg Ryan. Meg Ryan. Yeah. It was like, she's like, oh, sure,

[57:35] Matt: yeah. There's a mood I can get into. Would you say I'm conflict avoidant? No.

[57:43] Michael: Did I pause on that? I probably paused too long. Well,

[57:45] Matt: it's interesting. I. I think, especially, like, if anybody happens to be listening to this, that works with me in a professional capacity. You heard me say earlier that I'm like, 98th percentile open. And you probably rolled your eyes and said, yeah, that's not true. I can. I can be very. What's the word? How can I.

[58:03] Alison: You're open, but that doesn't mean you're agreeable.

[58:05] Michael: That's. It's great.

[58:07] Alison: I'm very disagreeable. I'm

[58:08] Matt: very disagreeable.

[58:09] Alison: But you are open.

[58:10] Matt: And I also really like being disagreeable. Like, there's something about being contrarian that is. It's really. I, like,

[58:16] Michael: that's something I appreciate about you. Like, I really enjoy that. I know it can

[58:20] Matt: be very functional.

[58:20] Michael: Yeah, you're very open. And so I know that, like, I can really challenge you because you are open, even though you're going to be very strongly disagreeable to my challenge, you know, And I find that. I actually find people like that really refreshing. It's like. It's like you can just push and push and. But, like, not very open. Disagreeable people are kind of more frustrating sometimes.

[58:44] Matt: Well, maybe it's that I'm very open and very disagreeable. And I really love getting the better of words. And so there is a part of me that if I'm in a fight with somebody and I can feel it building, I can feel it building up inside of me. And I'm like, oh, I got a good one coming.

[59:03] Michael: Let me thank

[59:03] Alison: you for this. So you're not listening. You're. You're just thinking your arguments as this person is talking.

[59:12] Matt: I mean, in an argument. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not saying this is good.

[59:19] Alison: Honesty moment.

[59:20] Matt: Yeah,

[59:20] Alison: yeah.

[59:21] Matt: Just.

[59:21] Alison: It's what happens. It's your instinct. And so, okay, like, that's an example. It's like, okay, this is what you're going to do. This is what your nervous system is programmed for. So you can allow that, but then you gotta take responsibility.

[59:39] Matt: I think as I've gotten older, wisdom has taught me that I. When I feel that, when I feel the zinger rising and I love to take that ride, it's like, okay, it will serve you better not to take the ride, to take a beat and decide what you want to say, what you actually want to say. Not. Not what your body wants to say, but what. What the love in you wants to say. Or. Or what the. You know, maybe in a business context, it's like, what's actually going to be productive for this conversation and not just like,

[60:17] Michael: yeah, are you a stupid idiot?

[60:21] Matt: Not the Gordon Ramsay version of your thoughts.

[60:25] Michael: Yeah, well, are you

[60:27] Matt: a fucking sandwich?

[60:29] Michael: That's one way to look at it. Let's. Let's kind of like maybe move towards.

[60:34] Matt: Yeah. I don't know where exactly this fits in. That came into my head earlier. I was watching a Chase Hughes video. You've really brought Chase Hughes into the zeitgeist here. And he was talking about if you have. Basically, he's talking about, like, in a business context or any context where you want to own the frame.

[60:51] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[60:52] Matt: That the first thing you should do is break expectations, and immediately the power comes into your hands. And I wonder. Well, that's what Hannah did. She wasn't going after power, but she broke expectations. And both of you had to reframe.

[61:09] Michael: Totally. That's a good example. I

[61:13] Matt: think you can do that in an argument as well. Like, if you're really going with somebody and you don't respond in kind,

[61:22] Michael: totally.

[61:22] Matt: You break the expectation and the whole thing can reframe.

[61:26] Michael: Totally. It's like, wow, I didn't see that, you know, or whatever it might be like, it's like. Or like, I think the example of Hannah last night was so huge. Like. Like, my frame, or even our frame of Hannah was broken when she said, hey, I think I'm being stressed or I'm stressed. And I was so.

[61:48] Matt: I think I'm stressed. I

[61:49] Michael: Think I'm stressed.

[61:49] Matt: I can't be sure. I've never felt it before.

[61:54] Alison: I really want her to be able to grow in that. Like, it will serve her so much if she can begin to tune into.

[62:03] Michael: Oh, she's, like, holding onto my hand and, like, allowing Alison to really, like, hold her. And it was really

[62:09] Alison: sweet, but do you remember during the pandemic, there was a day I was at my desk, and you walked into our bedroom, and you were like. I mean, this was the height of the stuff. And you were like, I. Something's happening in my chest. I don't. I don't know. I don't

[62:28] Michael: remember this.

[62:28] Matt: You blacked

[62:29] Alison: it out. He was like, there's. He's like, I don't know. Something's happening in my chest. I can't. You were just really overwhelmed, and I think you were having a panic attack.

[62:40] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[62:41] Alison: But you didn't know how to read. You didn't have language for what was happening in your body.

[62:50] Matt: Yeah, right.

[62:51] Alison: Or the emotions that were. You were experiencing, you know? But when you did that, that was like, whoa. Okay, here's Michael being vulnerable, and it was a new moment, but it's the same. So I feel like with Hannah, I'm like, oh, my gosh. It will serve her so well if she can begin to cultivate this body awareness and mindfulness and begin to pay attention to what's happening. And I hadn't told you this, but we had another conversation on Monday, and it was profound because she. I'm noticing she's having these. I don't know if I should be saying all this personal stuff about her. I probably shouldn't. She would hate that. Anyway, let's

[63:43] Michael: not do

[63:43] Alison: it. We've had. Let me back up. Yeah. Cultivating this awareness of, like, whoa, stress in my body. How do I name this? What do I do with it? How did this get here? And to be able to tune in faster, you know, I think it had really built up. When I asked her, I was like, how long have you been feeling this, this way? She's like, since Saturday. This was Tuesday night. I was like, oh, my baby girl. It's been like,

[64:20] Matt: yeah. Your point about cultivating awareness of it is a strong one, I think, because when something new like that comes into our bodies, you don't know how to rate it in severity because you've never experienced it before.

[64:35] Alison: I don't think it's new, though. I mean, she had a breakdown the first day of school, and I was with her in that. I don't think it's new. I think that it's just. I think it's been there. And I

[64:45] Matt: guess when I say new, maybe what I mean more is unnamed.

[64:54] Alison: What do you mean? I don't like.

[64:58] Michael: Well, it's just like you're. You're. You're unfamiliar with something and you might not experience it as much, but it kind of comes and goes. And so then, you know, but as you become more familiar with it, I mean, it's the same thing with, like, even, like with business. Like, you know, you. You hit these stressful places, and once you kind of like, know and understand that and then you face it again, it's not so unfamiliar. And so you're able to navigate it a lot easier. Although there's a new challenge that comes and you experience like, oh, I'm in that space again. And so then, yeah, then you can, like, actually have grace with yourself and like, okay. You know,

[65:39] Matt: I've suspected for a long time that most of pain, our experience of pain, is actually an experience of fear. And I came to that conclusion, which I still hold fairly loosely. But while researching home births, my son was born. You're gonna. You're gonna blow me up on this one. I'm just gonna give it as an example. My first son was born in a hospital, and then my second two daughters were born at home. And so I did a lot of. And really at. I was encouraging the home births because we had a. My ex wife had a really horrible experience in the hospital, and she was terrified of getting pregnant again because of that. And so I was doing a lot of research on alternative care methods. And so one of the things that I. Which got me started to think about the link between pain and fear was the drastic differences in the way that women were reporting their levels of pain during childbirth. And the conclusion I came to was, the more fear you have, the more painful it seems. And I. I can relate to that in my own body. You know, something happens to you. The less you know about what's happening, the more you're like, I don't know how to rate this on a scale of 1 to 10, because I have no idea where 10 is.

[67:06] Alison: Yeah.

[67:07] Matt: And so I'm more likely to experience everything as much more painful when I don't know where the limits are. But if you go through something a lot of times, maybe you still don't know where the limits are, but, you know, sort of locally within your experience where the rough limits are. And just sort of another point on pain, a lot of things that we consider painful become very pleasurable as we get to know them better.

[67:35] Michael: Totally.

[67:36] Matt: And that can be everything from. So I was a gymnast when I was younger. And so when you're. When you're on the high bar, you know, doing giants and swirling around and all of this, your hands develop these massive calluses. And a callus forms after a blister. So you're going through a lot of pain to build up these big calluses. And then the better you get at it, that pain of building the calluses converts into a promise of competence. And so you crave the feeling. You start craving the pain because of what the pain means. So, you know, back to the. The example of new things coming into our body. Like, I remember the first time I ever experienced a panic attack. I drove myself to the hospital. I thought I was dying. I didn't end up going to the hospital. I realized the last minute that I had a friend who lived next door to where I was going. And I went to his house, and he happened to be home, and. And he talked me down, and I realized that, oh, no, I wasn't dying. I was panicking. It's a big difference. And now when I can recognize that it hasn't happened in a long time, if I can categorize it and say, okay, wait, is this a heart attack or a panic attack? And if I can decidedly say this is a panic attack, it pretty much gets rid of the panic attack because of knowledge about it, and my fear has been mitigated.

[69:09] Alison: Right.

[69:09] Matt: Well, and so I think your point. Just your point about cultivate. How did you put it? Cultivating the awareness of your. Your body. I think that that's what that is. It's. It's fighting the fear of. Of the unknown. And I think that that does obviously serve us very well.

[69:27] Michael: I think Alison has a lot to say in this area, but I want to. Before she does. Like, I think that's one thing I experienced throughout Alison in childbirth was like the difference between our first. Let's

[69:36] Matt: you and I keep talking about childbirth and see how this

[69:38] Michael: is. I think Alison has a lot of great things to talk about this, but, like, just.

[69:41] Matt: Alison's a doula. Was a doula.

[69:43] Michael: Was a doula, and now does postpartum stuff with women. But, you know, seeing Alison, from our first kid to our fifth kid, it's like the first. There were so many unknowns and just seeing a lot more confusion, which I wouldn't have named it's the time, but I could. I could name it after seeing two or three more births is sort of like as she became more and more familiar with the process and like where 10 is, it's like she actually let herself go through the process and it was very visible. And also just seeing her experience of it was very different from the first to the fifth. And even though each birth was different is sort of like, like the unknown is sort of taken kind of taken away. And it seemed like that was like, like sort of like accepting the chaos. And like that one thing that, you know, the childbirth stuff is like, just let go and let your body do the work. You know, like that has always stuck with me. It's like, it's like, no, your body needs to kind of go through some stuff right now. Just let it, like you just let it do it because it needs to go through that. What's up?

[70:57] Matt: I'm not going to share that first thought.

[70:58] Michael: Okay.

[71:00] Matt: Wisdom has intervened.

[71:02] Alison: Self control.

[71:03] Michael: What do you think about all of our bandsplaining Babe?

[71:09] Alison: No, I agree with you. There are lots of studies in the birth realm that show that fear increases pain. And so the work of a doula, part of it is to help create a sense of safety. And that's how you know you would want. How I always try and like guide clients if I could connect with them early enough. It's like where you have your baby is actually the most important decision because you need to pick the place that you feel the most safe. And so there's no judgment about home or person or hospital, whatever. It's like you need to be in the place where you are going to feel the most faith that is going to create more ease.

[71:55] Matt: Yeah.

[71:55] Alison: And. And yeah, I mean, I totally agree. Like, I. I think the most painful thing I've been through was a kidney stone.

[72:10] Matt: Oh, wow.

[72:11] Alison: Because I didn't know what was happening.

[72:13] Matt: Yeah.

[72:14] Alison: And it was. But it was excruciating. It was like four labors put together.

[72:19] Matt: Wow.

[72:20] Alison: But like non stop, like no breaks, just pain.

[72:24] Matt: How long did that last?

[72:27] Alison: All day. I mean, it started slow and then it just ramped up and ramped up and I was.

[72:33] Matt: Did you go get any treatment or just pass it?

[72:36] Alison: Eventually I had to go to the hospital because I was in so much pain, I couldn't move.

[72:41] Matt: That's horrible.

[72:41] Alison: Yeah. It was awful. But it was terrifying because I didn't know what was happening. Right. And I'm like, am I dying? You know, and then on top of that, it's like, oh, wait, what am I doing with all these kids? And what if. What if I die? And you know, it's like when you're in pain, it also just opens up this world of like the fear like fuels your imagination in all the worst ways and that also amplifies the pain, you know. But then it's interesting to think like the most repeated command is do not fear.

[73:16] Michael: I was about to say that. Yeah,

[73:17] Alison: do not fear. Like, well, what's the opposite of fear?

[73:25] Matt: Trust.

[73:25] Alison: Trust safety. Like,

[73:31] Matt: well, do not fear, but also fear the Lord your God.

[73:37] Michael: It's like fear of the right things. It's like the, that's like I have almost more of a reverence is that that kind of fear is like, you know, the beginning of the fear of God is a big. As the, is the beginning of knowledge. You know, it's like.

[73:51] Alison: And it makes you want to know if they use, if the original language, like if the words they used were the same for those two scriptures and put particular. But I, I mean I feel like all of this is, is our fear and, and the innate, our instincts, our instinctual nature, our animal nature. I think all of this was not the design. I think the original design, this, I don't know if we want to get into this, but our nervous systems were made for safety. So I mean if you just look like Adam and Eve, they didn't have a survival instinct. There was no threat on their life, so there was nothing they needed to run from. There was nothing they needed to fight. There was nothing like they were not going to starve. Like there was no need for survival instinct. And however you want to interpret the fall and all of this, but we have. Then we were put into survival mode.

[75:16] Matt: Well, it's interesting that the first thing that they did after what you call it waking up is to feel naked,

[75:26] Alison: exposed, to feel

[75:28] Matt: vulnerable. I mean that's a, it's often described as a, a feeling of shame. They were ashamed and so they covered themselves. But I think that in this context it's, it's like they were afraid.

[75:41] Alison: They were afraid they needed to protect. And I've heard some people say like all sin, sin is an attempt at self protection.

[75:55] Matt: Carl Jung says that all neuroses are substitutes for legitimate suffering.

[76:03] Alison: Your dad said that, not Carl Jung. I heard it from your dad. So we're going to attribute that to him.

[76:12] Matt: A very different kind of language, but they're, they're fig leaves covering up the thing that we don't want to look at, the thing that we don't want to go through, that we don't want to deal with.

[76:24] Alison: Right. I think that Whoa. I think it's difficult to retrain your nervous system. And I don't know that we'll ever, in this life, be able to get back to the original. But I think that's. I think that's the direction that we're meant to. That's the direction of our growth.

[76:59] Matt: I've personally seen my mom make quite a bit of headway,

[77:04] Alison: really, on

[77:05] Matt: that. Well, you know, I've been watching her pretty closely for 44 years.

[77:13] Alison: Mm.

[77:18] Matt: And I can say that watching her go through the loss of her husband, she's been extraordinarily. What do I want to say about that? It just came into my mind that she's probably going to listen to this. And then I couldn't follow the thought any further.

[77:48] Alison: I mean, from my own encounters with her. Like. Right. I spent an afternoon with her one evening and. Or one afternoon, and she was telling me, you know, she was very afraid. I mean, financially. I mean, there's just so many things. And also, you know, just listen. I was listening to her episode on the way up here and how absolutely disorienting it is.

[78:13] Matt: Yeah.

[78:13] Alison: To have built your life and honestly, your nervous system absolutely intertwined with this other person. Oh,

[78:23] Matt: yeah.

[78:24] Alison: And so your sense of safety, security, protection is all intertwined with your husband. And then having that suddenly ripped away, like.

[78:35] Matt: Well, maybe it goes back. Maybe what it is that I'm seeing goes back to your model of first thought, second thought, first action. I mean, it feels crude. Like a crude way to describe what I have experienced watching my mom grow over four decades. But, yes, losing your husband of 44 years is wildly disorienting, but I don't see her acting out of disorientation. It's. Her nervous system is untwined, but I don't see her acting out of that. Like, I see her wisdom putting a stay on the wild oscillations that seem so obviously inevitable. And I think that's a. There's a kind of calmness in her which is totally at odds with a lot of the facts. Right. Like, if she's listening to this, she's like, I don't feel calm. I'm sure she's thinking that. But I brought this up because. Go back to what you were saying about how our nervous systems became. You were talking about the fall, and our nervous systems became unregulated. How did you say that? And then. What is it? Life is a process of trying to re. Re. Regulate ourselves.

[80:10] Alison: Yeah. I could say like that.

[80:11] Matt: Yeah.

[80:14] Michael: I don't know. I. I kind of I have a. I have a different take on this, but it's also, I think still follows in the same vein. You're kind of moving on. But I think that's kind of the process of knowing God. Is it like going from an animal state to a conscious understanding of God? It kind of unravels you, and you start to have to deal with things that you. That you haven't ever have to deal with before, you know, with even, like, the concept of sin. Why am I covering myself? Why am I so protective from other people? Like, it's like there's these things you start to encounter as you start to wake up. And what happens when you wake up is a lot of it is very defensive. You know, I want safety, I want protection, you know, and whatever I can do to get those things, and I'm going to do that. And then you start seeing that a lot of those things are harmful to you. And so I think that's the part is like, as we wake up and then learn about, like, who God is and his character, it's like, then we start to learn that we don't have to be afraid. And I think that's a process. That our first response is to be afraid, because that's very animalistic, is like. Like. It's like the world is very rational. It's very rational, too. But it's also like, the world is dangerous. And I hear. I hear a snap in the forest. I'm like, whoa, danger. That's my first thought. It's like, hey, there's somebody who wants to give me a hug, you know?

[81:44] Matt: Do either of you remember this point my dad made when he was on our podcast? It was episode two. And then we. After he died, I don't remember which episode this would have been, but we played a bunch of those clips of him talking and talked about that. But he, you know, he was talking about his perspective on therapy and disease and mental illness and all kinds of things. And he was saying that his goal with people was not for them to be protected. And he talked about how that was somehow counterintuitive. Like, you imagine, you know, a woman whose husband is beating her. The goal should not be her protection. And I don't remember what he replaced that with. Do either of you remember that? I have to go back and listen to that. Feels very apropos, though, because, like, as you're saying, it's like we're meant for something. We're meant to do something. We have things to do. And the more we protect ourselves, the less we can do. Maybe the alternative is something like strength and resilience is to overcome. Is to overcome the fear. And when you overcome the fear, you overcome the need for the protection as well.

[83:06] Alison: Yeah, but I think there's a danger in the self effort part of that. I mean, I love your point, Michael. I think that the only way to have a nervous system that can not be overrun by fear is to have God in me. Like the nervous system of the safety, the security, like God in me is that. And I'm also not saying, like, yes, we live in this world where there is danger. I need to be afraid if I am in danger. Like if my child is about to walk in front of a bus, I need to have this before I can think about it, react. Like that is absolutely necessary. But I. I tend to think that most of us are living in the world as if there's still tigers. Like our response, our body response to our daily stresses are as if we're constantly being chased by tigers.

[84:18] Michael: Well, I think that's

[84:19] Alison: overactive.

[84:19] Michael: Yeah, well, I think that's the part that. I think,

[84:22] Matt: yeah, we're having the tiger response to Instagram stories and tweets,

[84:27] Michael: but I think that's the part that always baffles me about Jesus, is the very thing you're talking about is like. Is like there's a reality that is very primal. And I think that's what Jesus kind of like. Sounds like you're peeing.

[84:45] Matt: Maybe I was let people dream.

[84:50] Michael: But I feel like that's something that Jesus kind of like takes you above, is that primal aspect. You know, it's like you must protect. You must have laws and things that you adhere to. And those are sort of like the idols that you set up, you know, to kind of define your world and your reality. And I think that's something that, you know, Jesus kind of comes along and kind of like breaks all those and everything from him being on a boat asleep when there's all these waves. Like, his reality was something completely different. He saw something

[85:23] Matt: diverting his plans when Lazarus dies and delaying to go there by two days.

[85:30] Michael: Yeah, I just think. I think there's just something that in this, in this part that it's like there is this primal aspect of us, but then there's like, there's a. There's another reality that's also happening on top that that's kind of what we're being awoken to, is that, that, that new reality. And I think that the more that we live in line with that new reality, it's like. It's like we're able to. Our primal aspects become more in line with that also. You know, where something that is fearful or anxious in one aspect of your life is not. But it's like you're always growing in that part of overcoming. And I think that's when you start to experience the whole idea of like, do not be afraid. Like, that makes more sense to me today than it did 20 years ago or 30 years ago. And. But I'm continually challenged by that idea of like, do not be afraid. It's like, you know, because there's, there's all, there's all these tensions in there. It's like, you know, prepare the horse for battle, but the victory is the Lord's. And, and there's this. There's this tension between, like, like there's things I need to do to prepare myself, but also God is in control. And it's like, how do you sort of like, manage those things? And I think part of it is we want to act out of more of our primal. Protect, run, what is it? Fight, freeze, or whatever. And it's like we're actually called to something higher than fight,

[87:07] Matt: flight, freeze.

[87:08] Alison: But how do you not be afraid? Is that a mental exercise for you? What is that for you?

[87:20] Michael: Well, that's kind of weird way to ask that, but it's experiential, you know, like, you can't. If it's just a mental exercise, you'll never get anywhere. You know, it's like if you don't experience something and if you don't experience overcoming, then it doesn't matter what your philosophy is. It's like it has to be experienced and overcome, you know, and some of it is knowledge and some of it is experience. You know, I think there's. I guess I don't understand the question because it doesn't make sense.

[87:55] Alison: I mean, I'm imagining people listening to this and saying, like, okay, well, how do I not be afraid?

[88:03] Michael: Well, I think that's the part is like, I mean, that's, that's, that's what's being challenged is your basic concept of reality. Like lived, lived experience of reality. And if you don't acknowledge that there's something wrong with your lived experience of reality, then you'll never be able to change. Like, I don't. I don't see things as they should be or as they are. And I think that's something that, you know, if, like. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to as well. And there's something about seeking something higher than yourself that actually gives perspective to all the other things. And so that's kind of like. So if you're not. If you're not seeking that, then it's sort of like you're. You're basically stuck in this sort of primal place of always reacting and protecting because, like, your kingdom is here on earth. Does that make sense? I know I'm using a lot of religious language here, but I can kind of move in a different direction if that works better.

[89:07] Matt: Let me put a personal story on the table and see if that helps us get to some of the harder to reach meat on the bones. I was asking myself this question somewhat recently. Like, what do you do with fear? I mean, what is fear even really? Like, I'm not sure that it's right to imagine that. It's sort of an objective, natural response of the body. Like, pain is like, you get cut, you feel something. I was recently in my life feeling afraid of a lot of things. Financial ruin, relational ruin, death. Too soon, too early, too unexplained. Leaving my life and the people I love in a hard spot. All of these things. All these things were running through my mind, and it came into my mind. Well, do you believe that God is who he says he is? Yes, I do. Then do you believe that God knows when you're going to die? Yes, I do. Then that means that God has already ordained your death. He's already approved of it. He's let it be when it's going to be. There's no sense in worrying about when that's going to be. God has already put that into his own hands. And I thought, well, my fear is unfounded and unbased and not helpful. And so I just need to let it go. Just the same way that you would drop a stone out of your hand. This isn't my body's. The fear that I'm feeling is not my body's reaction that I can't. I don't have any control over. It's something that I can choose to engage with or choose to let go. So that's one thing I think you can do with fear. But I think it, to your point, Michael, requires. I think it requires a concept of God. I think it requires something higher order that you can give yourself over to.

[91:35] Michael: It's so hard for me because I don't. It's like, I agree and also. Also have troubles with some things because I feel like there's a tension and that if we don't learn to live with that tension, then it's. I think that's, I think that's where the, the, a lot of problematic parts come into. It's like, if you don't be able to live with attention, it's like, like, is my death ordained? It's like things will play out as they play out. And that's maybe in that sense, but also. No, I have a role in that. And so.

[92:17] Matt: Well, yeah, I mean, it's like you can. There's another part of my brain that's like, well, could you thwart God's plans by acting stupidly? Yeah, probably. But

[92:31] Michael: the answer is like, yes and no. And I feel like that's the answer. Yeah, because then again,

[92:34] Matt: God tells Job who can thwart the plans

[92:36] Michael: of the Almighty. Exactly, exactly.

[92:38] Matt: So, I mean, I can thwart God's plans only by him allowing me to. He can say, I give you over to yourself. And in that way, well, then I'm out on my own. I'm not. My death is not ordained. The time is not appointed. But I think so long as I submit myself to God, then the time and manner of my death has no concern to me.

[93:11] Michael: Yeah, I think it's just hard. I don't. Because I get like, I, I can't come down on either side of this camp. I kind of. I kind of find this question as a. Both and, and I don't know how to, to navigate that. But I feel like in my own mind it's like, like there's a certain acceptance of that. Like, like I do have agency and also don't have agency. And it's like. Or my agency that I think I have is probably less than I do and also more than I do. And I think that's the part that I've. I feel like I have to accept more and more is like. And I don't know where the boundaries of that is. It's like I have a lot of agency and also have very little agency. And the boundaries of that I do not know. And I think that's the part that, that's why we have to trust God and that's why we cannot be afraid, is because that's something that we're working out. And the whole idea of like Paul talking about working out your salvation with fear and trembling is like, that's, that's what it is, is. We don't know like how much of our agency is contributed to our own suffering. And we also don't know how much of our, how much of that is not contributed to that. You know, there's a lot of.

[94:28] Matt: I would say all of it.

[94:29] Michael: What's. That?

[94:32] Matt: All of my suffering is due to my agency.

[94:36] Michael: Well, maybe, like. Maybe your interpretation is. But, like, the, like, people can, like,

[94:47] Matt: suffer unduly.

[94:48] Michael: Unduly. That's like. It's. It's being brought on by the. By an outside. Whether it be a government or relationship or, you know, circumstances like earthquake or a hurricane or something like that. You know, it's like. It's like there is legitimate suffering and some of that is of our own doing and some of that is external circumstances that we have no control over at all. But then our. But then how we. How, like, what we do with that is a whole. Nother is a whole another part. Because, like, if it's my own fault, then it's like, it might mean confession. Like, oh, wow, I did this.

[95:30] Matt: Well, I feel like if you take that thought process far enough, you end up where Solzhenitsyn ended up, which is. He ultimately said that everything that happens everywhere in the world is the responsibility of you. Like the ramifications, the ripples of the way that you live your life

[95:51] Michael: totally

[95:52] Matt: go much further than you could ever imagine.

[95:55] Michael: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which I totally believe. And it's also. But I think that's the humility that we have to accept is the responsibility of that.

[96:09] Matt: I was trying to find a place to add this little anecdote. It's not even an anecdote. It's a Lord of the Rings referen. But I saw somebody talking about this recently and it blew my mind. And I can't stop thinking about it, which is that the Black Gates of Mordor were originally the gates of Gondor. And it was only because men became complacent and abandoned cities and gates that evil was allowed to move in. The things that we abandon get filled by something else and we should be wise to consider what they might get filled with. Yeah.

[96:52] Alison: Can I circle back for a moment to the conversation that you had with yourself?

[96:56] Matt: Yeah.

[96:57] Alison: Where did those questions come from?

[97:00] Michael: Which question?

[97:01] Alison: Do you believe? Do you believe God is who he says he is? Where did that question come from?

[97:07] Matt: That's a really good question. I thought about asking you that when we were talking about when do you employ the model of first thought, second thought, first action? Because when you're in a conversational flow state you don't want that. You want first thoughts. And I think you have to be. It's like, well, maybe one answer is, well, what? You're wise enough to recognize when a situation calls for it. But that recognition, I don't really think comes from you. It comes into your head. It's like, oh, this is a time to use this. You could say it's experiential. Like, I've had enough experience to recognize it when I see it. But I think we've already established very early on in this conversation that we mostly don't see things. Right. So something comes into your head. It could be an idea remembering to do something, an answer to a question that you've been asking for a long time, or a puzzle you've been trying to solve. And one day you're just like, totally thinking about something else. And all of a sudden it pops in there. It's like, where do these things come into our heads from? And I think that the only rational explanation for that is God.

[98:24] Alison: Yeah.

[98:24] Matt: Who else has access to my head? I mean, even just definitionally speaking, what other sort of thing would have access to my head to where a thought can show up?

[98:38] Alison: Right. Yeah.

[98:40] Matt: Or an answer to a question that I'm legitimately asking, which means I don't think I know the answer.

[98:48] Alison: Right.

[98:48] Matt: And then an answer comes.

[98:51] Alison: Isn't that, like, deliciously wonderful? I love it. I love it. But it doesn't sound like that conversation was like a conscious prayer conversation or was.

[99:09] Matt: Was. It was in the midst of a conscious audible prayer. But I think that the thought process that I related to you just now was a quiet moment where.

[99:23] Alison: Right. I

[99:24] Matt: wasn't consciously using language either internally or audibly.

[99:29] Alison: Yeah.

[99:30] Michael: Essentially, though, like, there's there's kind of a couple parts to. This is. Is one, this is something that everybody experiences at one time or another in their life. And then another part is there's a part that you cultivate that. Because I think, like. I think there's aspects where. Where like, God comes in and sort of like gives you that sort of wake up moment, you know, but then there's this other part is like, where we cultivate that in ourselves, you know, through practices and through, like, through actual effort and stuff like that. But it's not the effort in itself that makes that possible, you know? Does that make sense? Because that's kind of like the Pharisees and the Sadducees. It's like, oh, because I do these things, then I am righteous, you know, it's like, no, it's like, you know, your sacrifices, I do not want is something that God talks about a time he says he wants a quiet and contrite heart, you know, Somebody who's turned towards him and is open to that. And I think that's. I think that's a really difficult thing, is that there's a part that we do play in preparing that space, you know, whether it be through prayer or. Or attention. But then at the same time, it's like you cannot. You can't do that in and of yourself. You know, you can't give enough attention to. To experience that sort of awareness, if that makes sense.

[100:58] Matt: You have to experience revelation.

[100:59] Alison: Yeah, I mean, that's. I feel like the conversation is leading me to. Yeah. The bottom line for me is that I cannot overcome fear apart from an encounter with God. I think for me to not be afraid, I have to first of all recognize that I am afraid and then say, God, I'm afraid.

[101:27] Michael: It's confession.

[101:30] Alison: And then be willing to receive comfort or revelation or answers from God. And then that requires belief that God can actually give answers and revelations and comfort. But I think. I think learning to receive comfort from God is huge. I mean, that's where that sense of safety comes. I think it's easier to want to get. It's easier, I think, to get answers, you know, like, God, what do I do? Like,

[102:13] Matt: it's easier to want answers.

[102:14] Michael: Easier to want.

[102:16] Alison: Yeah, yeah, maybe that. But, you know, the asking is like, what do I do? What do I do? But to say, I'm scared. What do I need? Like, comfort. Bring me comfort. And that's an experience.

[102:37] Michael: Well, I think that's the part too, is like, you know, there's a thing I always talk about like. Like all my questions are always answered, and it's kind of misleading, in a sense, is because, like, I don't ever feel like God answers my questions, but he takes me through an experience. And that in that experience, it answers my question. And I think that's the part that, you know, I think that sometimes the. The part that we get into with God is like, it's like, what should I do? And it's like, that's not really a good question. You know, as far as, like, it's like, what should I do? Should it kind of like. It's more of like, in order

[103:16] Matt: to what?

[103:17] Michael: In order to what? And that's the part that he's like. He's like, okay, I'm wanting to lead you into the experience. Experience so that you understand what.

[103:27] Alison: Do you know what a better question is?

[103:28] Michael: What's that?

[103:30] Alison: What shall we do?

[103:32] Michael: Oh, interesting. Like him and you type thing

[103:36] Alison: like, what shall we do?

[103:39] Matt: I

[103:39] Alison: feel like I had A huge revelation about this a couple years ago. I mean, just changing that language completely changes the engagement and the frame.

[103:51] Michael: That's interesting. Yeah.

[103:53] Alison: What shall we do?

[103:56] Michael: Well, it's also just like. That's even a more of a relational question. It's like, what shall we do?

[104:01] Matt: It reminds me of the question of a child when they wake up in the morning. What shall we do today? That's kind of an exciting question.

[104:13] Alison: That's kind of the reality.

[104:14] Matt: Yeah.

[104:17] Alison: I mean, that's our reality. Actually, to me, that question is aligning myself with reality. Because the truth I experience is that I'm never alone. I'm never doing anything of my own volition.

[104:31] Michael: I

[104:32] Alison: mean, that's not the right language. I'm never just off on my own doing things like God is in me, in him. We live and move and have our being. I am a we with God all the time. And asking, what shall we do? Is the true nature of, like, co

[104:55] Michael: laboring.

[104:56] Alison: Co laboring. It's like a co creating. Co creating. Like, I co create my life every day. And when I am conscious of the community that I have available to me, I'm not alone. And I feel like not being alone is the antidote to so much fear, to so much performance. And that was the other piece that I feel like that question really changes because what do I do? Means I'm going to get it right or I'm going to get it wrong.

[105:31] Matt: Like, there's a.

[105:32] Alison: Like, am I discerning enough? Am I really. Am I listening to what you're saying? Did I get it right? Did I do it? But, like, what shall we do? Is like, this is a group. We're in it. Like, no, there's like, the responsibility is not on me to perform it right. Anyway, I agree with you. What should I do? Is not a great question, but it is a very natural question. I feel like it's the first question that comes up.

[106:11] Matt: I kind of wake to that question every day.

[106:14] Alison: What should I do?

[106:14] Matt: What should I do? Troubles mount on every side. What should I do?

[106:22] Alison: Well, change it up this week and let us report back to us next week.

[106:26] Matt: I'll do that. I think we ought to wrap it up.

[106:30] Michael: Yeah, that sounds good.

[106:32] Matt: I think we have tiptoed very near the deep end of the. Of the shallows,

[106:40] Michael: I guess. Yeah, totally.

[106:42] Matt: Yeah. Alison, always a pleasure to have you here.

[106:45] Michael: Yes. Ah,

[106:46] Alison: so great. I love this. Thank y' all for having me.

[106:50] Matt: Thank you for being a part of our lives.

[106:52] Alison: My pleasure.

[106:53] Matt: We love you.

[106:53] Alison: Love you.

[106:54] Michael: Cheers. Thank you, guys. For coming out.

[106:56] Matt: Love you out there.