The Fake Internet vs. The Real World

[0:19] Michael: Hello.

[0:20] Matt: Hey.

[0:20] Michael: Hey. We good?

[0:24] Matt: We are

[0:24] Michael: all right.

[0:25] Matt: We are very good.

[0:28] Michael: To the shores.

[0:28] Matt: To the shores. Cheers. That was kind of a weak cheers.

[0:34] Michael: That was. But

[0:35] Matt: let's do that again.

[0:36] Michael: Sometimes.

[0:37] Matt: Boom. Nice. Sometimes what?

[0:43] Michael: Sometimes, like, you know, you may come in like a lamb and leave like a lion.

[0:52] Matt: Yeah, I was thinking that wasn't very main character energy.

[0:54] Michael: No.

[0:56] Matt: Come in like a lamb, leave like a lion. What does that have to do with a weak Cheers?

[1:01] Michael: Well, that's the thing is, like, you come in, like, all peaceful and. And, you know, weak. We're

[1:07] Matt: gonna be roaring by the end of

[1:08] Michael: this. Exactly. Got it. Exactly. And all of a sudden you're like,

[1:12] Matt: whoa, I thought it was a

[1:13] Michael: lamb. It's like, it's a lion.

[1:17] Matt: That's funny.

[1:18] Michael: Yeah, that's. That's a good segue into what we're talking about. I tried main character energy NPCs.

[1:26] Matt: Yeah. I've been having this strange feeling I was talking to you about it in. And without getting into sort of like, too personal, into the specifics, I just keep feeling like an NPC in my life. Like I just can't seem to bring effect on anything. Like it's. Nothing's moving. And then I simultaneously had this experience where I posted something to Instagram and I haven't posted to Instagram in a long time.

[1:52] Michael: I saw that, actually. Yeah.

[1:54] Matt: And what was funny is I woke up this morning and I had, like, a bunch of comments and likes. And I think what happens is when you have it posted for a while and then you post, the algorithm boosts your stuff and shows it to everybody so that you get that dopamine hit of getting the responses, and it makes you want to keep engaging in the platform. But then once you're posting regularly, all your. That kind of goes away and you start feeling like a kind of an NPC in the social network, or it happens on X too. You tweet out a lot, and a lot of smaller accounts, of which I am one. A lot of tweets go without likes or comments or anything. You're like, what's the point of this? Why am I. Why am I. I'm just posting into the void. Nobody cares.

[2:38] Michael: Yeah.

[2:41] Matt: And so I brought it up, this. This problem of the npc, the non player character, because I wonder if we are. If we are living in a world in which that feeling has become sort of under the surface, widespread, and if not, are we definitely moving into that world?

[3:01] Michael: Yeah, yeah. How much of it's, how much of it is also just self induced because it's, you know, isolated isolation. You know, it's like we're, we're online, we're not really active in the world or whatever. You know, it's like

[3:20] Matt: we're totally comparing our messy, fucked up real world life against everyone's perfect representation of themselves online. And it starts to feel like, well, why do they, why are they happy? Why do they have that car? Why do they get to go on vacations? You know, and my life's so messed up. But you're comparing the hidden, your hidden real life with everyone else's advertised fake life.

[3:51] Michael: Yeah, you kind of made me think, because I was thinking about this thing I did with my kids and as far as like, what is it? What's a life worth living? And sort of like, kind of like main character energy maybe or something like that. Maybe that's too weird at the same time, but. Well, let me go with what I came to and then I can work back from there. I just kind of like how I mentioned to you out there was just like, if you're not like engaged in the world and serving people, it's like, I feel like you do become an npc. It's just because it's not. People aren't real. If people are real, then you're kind of, you're reaching out and you're doing things for people. If people aren't real, then you don't really care about them and you don't really engage. You know, it's like, it's like at the coffee shop, you know, I can just walk by all these people and technically they're just kind of like NPCs in my world. But this, that, you know. Okay, so like today I, I walk. I was about to walk by a guy I know and I was, I was just, you know, they're just like characters that I walked by. And then also I was like, no, I just need to at least tap him on the shoulder. He was in a conversation. So it would have been, you know, it could have been kind of rude for me to interrupt, but, uh. And I was just like, it's like, hey, Daniel. And he was like, hey, how's it going? And he lit up. And then I lit up and then we started talking and then he introduced me to the people he was with. And all of a sudden these people that were just sort of like people I was passing are now like real life people, you know, and so there's Something about that if we just, if we don't, like, engage in the world in a way, you know, whether it's to say hi or to, hey, what can I do for you? How can I help you? Or something like that. It's just like. It's like everything just becomes background, you know, And I think that's something that, Especially with everybody on their phones. Like, that's what I saw a little this meme about, you know, kids who grew up in the 70s and, you know, water hoses and, you know, the whole idea of, you know, I'm bored. It's like, well, if you're bored, you don't. Can't find anything to do. I'll find you something to do. Which meant chores or something. Yeah.

[6:06] Matt: Which meant you got creative real quick, so you didn't have to do whatever's on the other besides the other side of that door.

[6:12] Michael: Totally. But, I mean, I, I, I, I'm so guilty of this because, like, right now I kind of feel like my kids spend too much time on their phones. Yeah. Like, it just, it's just there's, there's no, I can't, I can't, I can't make an excuse for that right now. I mean, it's just. And I, and I am responsible for that. So this is, this is a, this is a guilty of me thing. But again, it's like they don't reach out to their friends to come over. You know, they don't ask to go do things. They'll just be on their phone.

[6:44] Matt: Yeah.

[6:44] Michael: And again, my kids are creative. They go out and look at gardening and art and stuff like that, but it's still too much.

[6:52] Matt: Well, I think we're all on our phones too much. I'm on my phone too much.

[6:55] Michael: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, just like, you know, like, oh, I could, I could go out, call someone to go out. It's like, well, there's 10 billion movies on Netflix, so I can pretty much find something to watch every night.

[7:12] Matt: Right.

[7:12] Michael: I'm not going to make an effort to go out. You know, even last night, Al and I were watching the Witcher. We got the season 4. It was a new character. New Witcher character. It was, he was dumb. And then they just got. The whole show got weird. And I think that's why the main character left was because they're, they're moving the show into sort of like a very. I don't know what you call it, like, the kind of woke whatever, you know, or just what it felt like. And. And we just turned it off and like, okay, well, what do we watch? But the option wasn't like, let's go play cards. I hate playing cards. But, you know, do something that's not.

[7:52] Matt: You hate playing cards. You love playing poker.

[7:54] Michael: I like playing poker, yeah. Yeah. But that's not like playing cards. Like, spades and hearts and stuff. It's not. It's not that. This on high on my priority list.

[8:05] Matt: Yeah, I guess I can understand. Yeah. I was thinking about it this morning, so I was kind of spinning my wheels today. I didn't really have anything on my schedule, and I was trying to figure out what to do with myself, and I had this thought. I was like, well, why don't you sit down and write down the five most valuable things you could do? And I didn't do that. I don't know. I put on a podcast and went for a walk instead. And I don't know why. You know, I think probably I was avoiding something in myself. Like, it's kind of a scary thing to do, to think, well, if you could write down the five most valuable things you could do today, well, you could create a lot of value, even if you were wrong about those five. But there's a part of me that kind of shied away from that. In the same way that you shy away from being bored, I think. Or that you shy away from. Well, like, you know, you didn't want to watch that show. And so the question is, what should we watch instead? Instead of what should we do instead? Or, you know, maybe we should do something we don't regularly do. Maybe we should read each other a book or give each other massages or, you know, go leave our phones inside and go build a fire in the backyard and sit and talk.

[9:25] Michael: Yeah, I don't. We used to do that all the time.

[9:27] Matt: Yeah.

[9:28] Michael: You know, have fires, and I don't do that. I'm like, oh, well, it's gonna take time. I gotta go out there, build a fire and.

[9:34] Matt: Right.

[9:35] Michael: Don't want to sit out there for more than 30 minutes.

[9:37] Matt: Right. Yeah. The last couple nights I did that, I built a fire. Oh,

[9:42] Michael: wow.

[9:42] Matt: And it was just me by myself, and just sat there for an hour and a half and two hours. And I had the same thought. I was like, I don't really want to do this because I don't know if I want to sit out here for this that whole time, but I did it, and it was really worth it. I mean, I got sort of deep into thought and played guitar a Little bit. And overall, I was glad that I did that.

[9:59] Michael: Yeah.

[10:00] Matt: But I feel like we're all. There's this, like, that quick dopamine hit of picking up your phone. Even if you're not picking up your phone and going onto social media, it's like your phone is this collection of little potential jingle bells, you know, it's like the little red icons on all the apps that show how many notifications there are. And you want to see, do I have any notifications? Did I get a message? Did I get an email? Did I get likes on Instagram or on X or I want to check X for the news or whatever. And it just becomes this habitual drip of just picking the phone up, looking, picking, you know, always in short bursts. Right. And I think we can so easily distract ourselves from really meaningful things because we're doing that. You know, maybe that's one of the reasons I didn't write down the five valuable things I could do this day is like, it's much easier to just get distracted from that thought. Pick up your phone and now your mind's blanked. You know, you kind of forget that you had that real world thought in. In the moment.

[11:01] Michael: Totally. Especially things like podcasts where I feel like I'm learning, you know? Yeah. And some. A lot of times that is true, but sometimes it's just. You're just doing it to fill space. To

[11:12] Matt: fill space. Yeah, definitely. I definitely was guilty of some of that today. I listened to one podcast that I wanted to listen to, and then it, like, moved on to another one, and I was like, I don't really want to listen to this, but I also don't want to sit in silence with myself, so just keep it on. But I think that's what I. I'm sort of seeing a picture emerging. It's like the. The constant going to and checking in with the fake world, which is the online world, in order to distract ourselves from the real world, which is. No, sometimes you have to sit in silence and. No, sometimes you have to be alone. Sometimes you have to, you know, sit for two hours by the fire by yourself. And it takes effort to do that.

[12:00] Michael: Yeah.

[12:00] Matt: Why would I expend effort to do something that's slightly uncomfortable when I could, with no effort, just, you know, keep tapping that dopamine button in my brain by constantly rotating through the apps on my phone, just desperately looking for something. I don't even know what I'm looking for and never really finding it.

[12:19] Michael: Yeah.

[12:20] Matt: Tweeted this once. I said, I keep looking for something on my phone and I never find it. And I mean that in a very general way. I pick up my phone expecting something of importance and mostly I get nothing out of it.

[12:35] Michael: Yeah,

[12:36] Matt: which, you know, isn't totally true. Obviously I learn a lot via that, that device. But I think you can maybe end up feeling like a non player character in your life when you're just constantly rotating in and out of the apps and rotating in and out of the discomfort of your own life and avoiding what you could do with yourself and numbing that avoidance by basically watching porn is what it is. I mean, that's what social media is. It's porn. It's performative.

[13:17] Michael: I thought you were gonna make an acronym out of porn.

[13:19] Matt: Oh really?

[13:19] Michael: Performative, Oscillation, Rotational.

[13:22] Matt: Well, no, think about it. What is porn? Porn is performed sex acts for the pleasure of people who aren't there. And that's what all of social media is. People are just performing for the pleasure of people that aren't in the room. And I had this thought the other day, I was like, I don't know that we're meant to see as many people that we've never met as we do right now. You know, we all follow people we don't know, whether they're influencers or micro celebrities or real celebrities or just friends of friends even just maybe someone we met once. We're following all of these people and just seeing them constantly. And I wonder what that's doing to our brain to constantly be looking at and hearing from people we don't know and have no intention to get to know either.

[14:22] Michael: Yeah, definitely. There's a double edged sword to it because like kind of we were saying earlier, it's like there's so many podcasts that I know you and I have learned from specifically, but there's this fine line where it becomes something that's engaging and helpful, but it's like it's actually helping you move forward and then at some point it can just. It's like it puts you into this neutral space where you're not moving anywhere, maybe even going backwards, you're just filling space. And it's not something that's informative or helping you.

[14:59] Matt: It could be worse than that though. Sometimes it's not even just filling space. Sometimes our content becomes something which seems like it's valuable or just content in general. And when I say content and everybody knows what I mean, it's like talking about Instagram reels. Right? Content which seems valuable but is actually hyper misleading and the result of that is that people become very discouraged. And let me give you an example of that. My uncle sent me this reel because we were talking about. My uncle and I have been talking about crypto and AI and jobs and. And all kinds of things. And

[15:39] Michael: my sister uncle. That didn't. That moved you out or maybe I don't talk about that. Sorry.

[15:47] Matt: No. This is my uncle Mark. You met him. You went to his. No, you didn't. I don't know if you met him or not. Maybe it's my dad's brother. And he sent me this reel, which was on Facebook. I don't know if they call them reels over there. I'll never get on Facebook. But it's a clip of the Diary of a CEO podcast. And he was interviewing somebody that I've never met, but he asked them, or never heard of, rather. He asked them the question, if you only had $500, how would you start a business with that? And the guy goes, oh, it'd be very easy. I'd only even need $100 to start. And he basically lays out. He's like, I would educate myself on AI tools. I would use the other 400 to pay for meta ads and set up a website. Maybe I call it Chris's AI Solutions and just start advertising to small local businesses that I can help them integrate AI into their companies, into their businesses. And then once I got them on the phone, I would pepper them with questions until I understood what their problems were. And I would go to AI and build a solution for it and charge them for that. And he kind of lays it out like, no, it's like, really easy. And there's this category of content online which is being rich and famous is actually really simple. And I was thinking about that because I'm sure you've seen or heard there's the Shopify store version of this. You just hook it up to print on demand and you throw some meta ads at it. And I'm making $50,000 a month. There's the dropship version of that. It's like, you just link up with this company in China and you don't have to warehouse anything. There's the Amazon Marketplace version of this. There's all kinds of things. And there's tons of use YouTube videos of people telling you how you can start a business and get rich quick. And I think I was thinking about that and I was like, oh, it makes really compelling content. Because we all want that to be true. And so we watch it, we're like, oh, maybe. And then we're like, I must be like kind of a unique kind of failure because I've never figured out how to do anything like this. And then I was thinking, that content is so compelling, that reel my uncle sent me is so compelling. And I think the reason it's so compelling is it sells you the upside without ever mentioning the downside, which is that 9 out of 10 businesses fail. And he just kind of glosses over that. Well, I'll just pepper them with questions till I understand their problems and then I'll prompt AI to build a solution. And I was like, understanding people's problems is really, really hard. It's not easy. And that's not even getting to the solution part yet. You know, solving problems is really hard, but understanding the problems is really hard. And some people have a talent at that.

[18:36] Michael: Yeah,

[18:36] Matt: right. And if you have that, that talent to ascertain the source of people's problems, you already have a lot of value in the marketplace. And maybe that idea does work for you. But starting businesses and running businesses is really hard.

[18:50] Michael: But also like he says you were talking about, I mean, this guy already has so much experience. So he's not just has $500 and he's starting a business, he's starting a business with a million dollar education,

[19:02] Matt: presumably, you

[19:03] Michael: know, not right, not like at a school, but you know, you know, whether it's like his sales expertise, all the things he's read, it's like, it's not just as simple as like anybody

[19:12] Matt: can. 500. Yeah. You know, and then he talks about just all of these people to talk about, like, well, yeah, just point a bunch of meta ads at this point. Are we crushing

[19:21] Michael: people's dreams? Is that what we're.

[19:23] Matt: Well, you always say that if somebody talks to you about starting business, you, you, what do you say?

[19:30] Michael: If

[19:30] Matt: I can't convince you not to, then you're ready.

[19:33] Michael: Then you're ready

[19:34] Matt: because it's max pain, man. I mean, even the ones that succeed, you go through max pain and it's max pain. Because understanding problems is really hard. Sometimes you think you understand the problem and you think you have a solution and you go do it and you think it was great. I understood the problem. I have a solution that solves that problem. You put that against the marketplace and it flops. It's like it doesn't work in real life. Only within the model in your mind did that work. So actually understanding real problems and giving them real solutions is super hard. It takes a lot of trial and error and it takes a Lot of you have to get knocked on your ass and get humbled by reality a lot through the process. But I think that there's a lot of that content which is so compelling, that offers, that sells the best case scenario without mentioning the underlying risk and the underlying pain that's going to be inevitable, I think, leads to a lot of discouragement because in reality, the get rich quick schemes don't exist. And so we keep seeing the content thinking that they do. And so we start thinking, well, maybe I'm just not a very good person, maybe I'm just not very smart or very capable and thinking lesser of ourselves than we should. And maybe that's another terrible effect of social media in general. It's like we compare our real dirty lives to the fake Internet ones, and our real dirty lives get even dirtier and more downtrodden because we're not actually receiving very much encouragement from these systems.

[21:11] Michael: Yeah.

[21:12] Matt: For the most part, whatever encouragement we feel is more like algorithmic manipulation to get us to spend even more time just mindlessly rotating in and out of the app.

[21:23] Michael: Well, I think it's because the truth is a lot less sexier. I mean, I think kind of the old, more of like apprentice type idea is that what kind of business do you want to do? Okay. Go to that business and sweep its floors for the next two years.

[21:36] Matt: Totally.

[21:37] Michael: You know, the whole Mr. Miyagi wax on, wax off. He spends like a whole summer just doing stupid ass shit. And he doesn't realize the things that he's learning and gaining by doing this seemingly stupid waxing. A car.

[21:52] Matt: Yeah. I think some of our mutual friends had some kind of relationship with the guy that started Uchi, and they were talking to him about sushi and wanting to make it at home, asking for advice. And his advice was like, don't do it. He said, sushi chefs spend like the first three years or only making rice.

[22:11] Michael: Yeah.

[22:11] Matt: That's how long it takes them to get it. Right. It's like you, you have to do the, the job you don't think you want in order to understand the job you think you do want.

[22:20] Michael: Exactly. Yeah. Which makes sense with a guy that can take that $500. I was like, he's been doing that for a long time.

[22:26] Matt: Right.

[22:27] Michael: And so he's got more. He's got so much resources built up, you know, Again, I don't know who this person is, but if he's already a rich guy, he's probably done a lot of stuff already, you know?

[22:39] Matt: Yeah.

[22:40] Michael: So it is kind of like I think that's. I think that's why I've always loved biographies, is because you get to see, especially of business people, is you see their whole. You see more of their whole journey, you know, and their. Their failures as well as their successes, and. And even how some. A lot of the successes are just, you know, perseverance or kind of just blind luck, you know, and sometimes we associate all this genius to why somebody's successful.

[23:07] Matt: Right.

[23:08] Michael: There's a lot of geniuses that are not successful financially, you know, and

[23:12] Matt: a lot of people who are successful financially who are not geniuses, for sure. I heard somebody talking about this. I want to say it was like, probably Chamath Palihapitiya. But he was kind of saying, it's like, you want to interview someone who's been successful and ask them, why are they successful? And he's like, people always want to give the answer something like, well, I was, you know, really diligent. I was really disciplined. I was, you know, it was really whatever. He's like, all that's bullshit.

[23:44] Michael: Totally.

[23:45] Matt: Because you don't want to say the real answer, which is that you got lucky.

[23:48] Michael: Yeah,

[23:49] Matt: that's it. He's like, maybe perseverance. You persevered through all the times you failed. Yeah,

[23:55] Michael: totally. I think.

[23:55] Matt: But really, you just got lucky. And successful people don't want to say that, because we all want to imagine that our success is attributed to ourselves, and so rarely is it.

[24:04] Michael: Yeah, I always love that. That whole, like, luck favors the prepared.

[24:08] Matt: Yeah.

[24:09] Michael: And so I think, because I feel like that kind of gives. There's. There's a lot of, like, there's a lot of things you can do to help whenever you do maybe stumble on something like lucky or whatever, that. That can prepare you to actually manage that.

[24:26] Matt: Right.

[24:26] Michael: But again, going sweeping floors at a business that you want to start, I think that's just seeing what it looks like to work into how that thing operates from the bottom up. I think those are just skills that are invaluable. And like, making rice for three years, it's not just the making rice. You're also around the ideas, the ethos of that. And so you're not just making rice. You're also around the chefs who are preparing the fish or the next step up. You know, I don't know the whole process of that, but you're just submerged in that culture and an idea of, you know, sushi making. And so I think that's something that can sometimes be overlooked. You know, I think that even just as For a barista, sometimes, like, oh, I'm just a barista. It's like, no, man. It's like you're in a space where you're interacting with so many different type of people that if you open yourself up to it, you're actually going to gain more than just working at a coffee shop.

[25:29] Matt: That's such a great point. Yeah. Yeah.

[25:30] Michael: And. And I see it, too. It's like whenever, like, people that have come to work, work for me and, and then go off into these different jobs and areas of life and how much just that aspect has actually helped them and prepared them for those other jobs. Like, they can go and have conversations with people. Right. You know, it's like, interact with people.

[25:53] Matt: I worked at Accenture Interactive for nearly six years, and I think the one takeaway, if I could choose one takeaway that I took away from that job was really had nothing to do with what I did. I mean, I was an engineer and designer and technology director. And I think the thing that I took away from it was because it's Accenture, which is this massive. They employ half a million people. I had access to some pretty big companies like Lockheed Martin and the state of California and the United States Postal Service, and I worked really closely with those three in particular. And I sat in a lot of rooms with really powerful people, and I got to sit in those rooms and pay attention and ask myself, like, what is. Who are you? What is the difference between you and me? What's the difference between you and everyone else at this table? Why are you the one making the decisions? And what I discovered was that those people, these heads of multi. Multimillion dollar programs or CEOs, they weren't any smarter than everyone else. They weren't any more skilled than everyone else. They weren't even necessarily more experienced than everyone else. But they were willing to pay attention in that meeting. Whereas a lot of times people don't pay attention to meetings. Their head is elsewhere. They pay attention in the meeting.

[27:17] Michael: Yeah.

[27:18] Matt: They formulate something to say and then they said it confidently. Was it the right thing? Always? No. But they were willing to risk saying the wrong thing. They were willing to risk saying anything at all. A lot of people, especially around powerful people, are too scared to say anything.

[27:32] Michael: Yeah.

[27:33] Matt: And I, I took like, that's something that I learned. And took away from that job. That really had nothing to do with my skill set at that company.

[27:44] Michael: Yeah.

[27:45] Matt: But you. You get to learn these extra things if you, you really. What is it? You

[27:51] Michael: actively show up

[27:52] Matt: and pay attention Participate. Yeah.

[27:54] Michael: Well, in that sense you're not, you're not, you're not a non player character. It's right, you're, you're, you're engaged, you're, you're paying attention. And I think that's part of it. It's like, I think there's a skill in that too is like paying attention even when it doesn't seem like it's that important.

[28:12] Matt: Yeah.

[28:13] Michael: And you know, whether it's like you notice somebod. You see this at the coffee shop all the time. Somebody will be standing at the front door and if you're not paying attention, you're going to miss it. But just if you're paying attention, you see the look on their eyes like, okay, what am I doing? Where am I going? You're just like, hey, how's it going? And then just like they just open up, hey, what's going on? And like, hey, we can help you over here. And it's just like so many things change just because somebody was paying attention.

[28:41] Matt: I just had this image in my head. I was like, so the way that you kind of laid it out is that, well, we're all main characters are in our own lives and everyone else is a non player character, but we're non player character in everyone else's life because they're their own main character. And then your idea is that you can transform people in your life from being NPCs to being main characters by serving them. And I, I see you just imagine you walking through the coffee shop and everyone's kind of an NPC sort of dead. Right? Sort of in black and white and you're going around just bopping them on the head and they're turning into color.

[29:24] Michael: Dude, that's

[29:25] Matt: great. The wizard of Oz. And gosh, isn't that our whole life? We have this opportunity everywhere around us. We could just gleefully like Tom Bombadil, just be like just Transforming people from NPCs into real boys and girls. If we just pay attention.

[29:46] Michael: Well then it's like you almost become a Fellowship of the Rings.

[29:48] Matt: Yeah.

[29:49] Michael: You know, it's like, it's like obviously like everyone's main characters in their own lives, but then as you go and like, because I love that you touch people and it turned into color, you know, it's like, and then you see this sort of like almost like a fellowship that hey, we see each other. And then like, you know, again. So it was, it was cool. Like I was a non player character. I was just walking back to the Office. And. And this guy goes, hey, I love the way you are. I was like, wait,

[30:17] Matt: is this real?

[30:18] Michael: This? Yeah, this. This happened like right before I came here. I was filling up my water bottle in order. Is

[30:22] Matt: this somebody you knew?

[30:23] Michael: No, didn't know this guy. And

[30:25] Matt: I love the way you are.

[30:26] Michael: I love the way you are. I was like. I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, he totally just puffed me out of my world. I was just walking and he was like, yeah, it's like I come in here all the time and I just see you and it just kind of seemed like you have like a peace about you. And like he turned me from a non player character into a main character. And he and I had this great little exchange and I just like. And I just kind of like, I kind of like. I don't know, I probably was a little bit weird. I kind of stared at wonder, but I was just like, you didn't have to say that. That is really cool. Like, like I, I now like you were just this person sitting there that I had not looked, seeing, or noticing. And now you, you actually mean something to me. And that was just like. It kind of makes me more excited about going in tomorrow just to kind of like, hey, let's do this thing, you know?

[31:12] Matt: Yeah. It was a couple of years ago, around Christmas time, and I was in a really bad mood. I can't remember what I was upset about. Doesn't matter. I was just kind of downcast and downtrodden and I was in a Target trying to do some last minute Christmas shopping. I was by myself and I feel a tap on my shoulder and I turn around and this older black woman, she goes, you dropped something. And I said, what? And she goes, yeah, your smile. And I just lit up.

[31:40] Michael: Did you hug her?

[31:41] Matt: I don't remember.

[31:42] Michael: Oh, yeah. I probably would just hug that later. Oh, my gosh.

[31:50] Matt: Gosh. But yeah, she knocked me out of my npc, made me a real man,

[31:56] Michael: a real boy. He's a real boy.

[31:58] Matt: A real boy.

[32:00] Michael: Isn't that crazy? I mean, I think that's. You just kind of start to. It's like, what is the power behind that? There's something really powerful in that.

[32:09] Matt: And how far could you take it?

[32:10] Michael: Yeah, it's like just seeing people. Because that's what she did. She saw you and she took the time and effort to say something to you. Hey, you dropped something. You know, and it's just sort of like. Or that guy says like, hey, I like the I like your way. Or Whatever. I don't know how he said that. You know, I was like. And. And, you know, it does change people.

[32:31] Matt: Yeah.

[32:31] Michael: Like. Or the guy who called me Keanu Reeves at Home Depot, you know.

[32:35] Matt: Did you. Did he really?

[32:37] Michael: Yeah. I don't know if I'm telling the story on the. On the podcast, but I was going to get propane, and. And, you know, I got the propane. Someone's gonna meet you at the propane thing. And this guy walks out, and I was like, hey, how's it going? He just looked at me. They kind of went past me and was opening up the gate. I was like, okay, all right. You know, he didn't say anything. And he was like, has anybody ever told you you look like Keanu Reeves? I was like, no, probably. I don't know. I kind of pushed it off or whatever. It was like, hey, man, just believe.

[33:09] Matt: That's awesome.

[33:10] Michael: And it was funny because he wasn't, like, extroverted. He just. He was really kind of, like, awkward. But, like, I've told that story so many times because he just changed my. He changed everything at that moment.

[33:22] Matt: That's awesome.

[33:23] Michael: And just how many. How many opportunities do we miss that we can just change? Totally. Like, I'm talking to this guy. I'll never see him again. Prob. Probably. But he still lives in my. In my head.

[33:34] Matt: I feel like there's some program in me where, like, I generally don't interact with strangers that much, and I think it has something to do. I don't know if this is true or not. We'll just explore it. But with the idea that if I interact with a woman who's a stranger, then I might possibly be a sexual predator. So I won't compliment a woman that I don't know.

[34:00] Michael: Yeah.

[34:01] Matt: And there's something about that that I hate. I want to be able to compliment people. I want to be able to, you know, transform them from black and white into color. And then I won't compliment a man because I don't want to be seen as gay, I guess. I don't know, but it's almost like there's this kind of, like, sexual aversion. Aversion to sexual. That keeps people from talking to one another. And I wonder if that's a sort of an unpredicted consequence of the sexualizing of everything.

[34:36] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[34:38] Matt: Because our culture has become hyper sexualized and, you know, over the last, let's say, 65 years, you know, since really the 60s, probably before that, you know, the number of taboos around Sexuality has been aggressively torn down. Almost nothing sexual is taboo anymore. And so if everything's sexual, then there's some program running inside me that thinks, well, a stranger is going to evaluate me sexually first than as a human second.

[35:18] Michael: I could see that. So I think that's. That's a very interesting thing because I think that's, like. I really hate that. That. That is. Because I do see that in society in general. But I think that's whenever you. I kind of want to take it away from your example, but just because I think the really. The solution is. Is like. Is like when you have a father's heart, it's no longer. It's no longer. It doesn't matter, you know, like, I'm gonna tell my daughter she looks beautiful,

[35:54] Matt: right?

[35:54] Michael: And. And I think that's something that is. Because I, you know, there might be a little bit of weirdness. And. Well, I think it's just really like how you approach it. But I think that's the part it's almost been. You can't approach it at all because there's that taboo around it. But I think that's the part where, Oh, shoot. I'm really trying to. Trying to dance around this idea because I know what you're talking about, and I feel like I've kind of rejected that a little bit. Like, I'm not gonna play that game.

[36:33] Matt: Right. Well, I think that's what it takes. You have to say, I reject that basis of interaction.

[36:40] Michael: And so I even almost expect. You can almost expect that reaction first. But whenever you subvert that, it's like, no, that's not. I'm not. I'm not that person.

[36:48] Matt: So a number of years ago, I was at a work event that was like, at a. You know, you have enough people that go to a restaurant, they put you in the back room, right? And you have a server dedicated to you. And there's this younger woman, probably late 20s, early 30s, was serving everybody. And when I went to leave, I'd asked her where the elevator was. Irrelevant. She walked me over to it. And as we were walking over, I said, hey, can I give you a compliment? And. And she goes, okay. And I can't remember what it was. I was like, she had, like, this very kind of comforting presence. Like, she wasn't just serving us. It was like she was really serving us. Something like that.

[37:29] Michael: Yeah.

[37:30] Matt: You know, not just taking our order and delivering the food. And she took it like I was hitting on her and responded positively, actually was like, oh, well, you know, and kind of Suggested that I

[37:43] Michael: ask her out or what? Ask

[37:44] Matt: her out? Yeah. Right. And I kind of just said, well, hope you have a good night. And I laughed. And when what was in my mind to say was, hey, I'm actually not hating on you. I'm just complimenting you because I noticed you, and it meant. And it was. It mattered to me.

[37:59] Michael: Totally.

[38:00] Matt: And I should have said that.

[38:01] Michael: Totally. You should have, yeah.

[38:02] Matt: But because it was sort of assumed to be in the sexual space, I felt uncomfortable about it, and I just wanted to get out of it. But I think because I was not rejecting that going into it, I couldn't just say no. Actually, that's not at all what I'm about here.

[38:20] Michael: Totally. Totally. I think that's the part is to kind of, like, subvert those norms of today. Because that's one thing with that guy who wrote those 55 things because he turned 55. It was like. It's like

[38:36] Matt: on Twitter. On

[38:37] Michael: Twitter? Yeah. And one of them was. Was like, if you have a compliment for somebody, give it to them.

[38:43] Matt: Yeah.

[38:43] Michael: And I just really, like, kind of stuck out to me and. Because, I mean, honestly, the guy who stopped me earlier was like. Like, he gave me a compliment. And I just, like. And how much that was like, you know, I mean, again, being also, like, was he hitting on me? It's like, well, I just didn't take it that. I was just like, thank you. That was really nice. You know, I don't think he was, but it was just. It still was like, you could go that direction.

[39:09] Matt: Right.

[39:10] Michael: You know, And I think it's. For me, in those. In those instances is to take it at face value, you know, and to accept the compliment or to. To not be afraid to compliment somebody, you know?

[39:24] Matt: Yeah. Why is it so scary? Why are we afraid to compliment people? It seems like a crazy thing to be afraid of. It's like you have something good to say

[39:33] Michael: and

[39:33] Matt: you're not gonna say it. Cause you're afraid.

[39:34] Michael: What

[39:35] Matt: are you afraid of?

[39:35] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, even, like tonight, like, whenever the cashier I asked him, I was like. I was like, hey, how's that blackened fish? I was like, oh, it's pretty good. He started telling me about the cut of the fish and how they cut it every day and fresh. And I was like, all right. I just need someone to push me over the edge. And, like, he did. And. And at the end, I just went over to him. I was like, hey, thanks for the recommendation. You know? And, like. And like, you know, he lit up, too. And so it's like. It's. It just. See, just. It just kind of like more and more. I kind of just have forgotten some of those things. Like, hey, just say thank you. Or if you appreciate something about somebody,

[40:14] Matt: tell them,

[40:15] Michael: yeah, you know, how much it means to you. And I hate a compliment. I hate compliments. But when I get them, I'm still like. I'm like, oh, no, wait,

[40:23] Matt: why do you say. Yeah, why do you say you hate compliments?

[40:27] Michael: Because then I just do this. Like, is that true? You know, and. And. Or I just. I just don't like to be the center of attention or like to be called out. But at the same time, I know that it's something that we all need, too, is that, hey, you matter. This is why you matter. And it's just. It just. If I never got one, I think it's even

[40:47] Matt: baser than that. It's like. It's not even that you matter. It's like you're noticeable. To be acknowledged for existing is almost even a step before mattering and being acknowledged that you exist as an individual,

[41:03] Michael: so powerful,

[41:03] Matt: different, separate from everyone else. It really is so powerful.

[41:07] Michael: Well, it's like, even when I said hi to that Daniel guy, when I was just going to pass by and I was so. I was just gonna. Because he was talking to someone, I was like, hey. I was like, hey, Daniel, I just want to say hi, and I know you're in thing. He's like. He's like. I was walking away. He was like, hey, come over. And he's like. He invited me back and introduced me to the people that were c. Was sitting with, and it was just sort of. It's like you just miss out on so much if you just. I'm just kind of like, really, like, right now realizing how much I just don't understand that, you know, it's like I'm just missing out on things because I don't engage in that way.

[41:43] Matt: When I first moved to Austin, it was in 2007, so I was 25 years old, and I moved here to start a music career. And I was writing my first album, put my first album out in 2009, and I got here and I was trying to break into the music scene. And once I started getting gigs, I consciously decided that every time I went into a venue, I was going to introduce myself to everyone who worked there.

[42:12] Michael: Oh, good. Yeah.

[42:13] Matt: And always use my first and last name. And I did that. And thinking back on it, I made a lot of relationships that way because, for one thing, when somebody walks up and introduces themselves to you, that's kind of a powerful thing. It's like somebody just walked straight up to me and stuck their hand out. And then when you say your full name, it's like, oh. And conversations start. And I think these days, and especially since COVID that debacle, I'm so much less social or much less likely to. To be behave in that way. But our opportunities to do that are everywhere all the time.

[42:58] Michael: Totally. Yeah. It's so powerful to just acknowledge your waiter or your barista. And it's like you also change their days.

[43:10] Matt: I mean, even, like, I think this sort of like, what is it regularized or normalized etiquette. When you're sitting down at a restaurant where there's a server, the server will often come up to you and say, hey, I'm Matt and I'm taking care of you tonight. What's not normal is for the people who are at the table to be like, I'm Michael. Nice to meet you. You know. But when you do, things change. Everything changes.

[43:39] Michael: Yeah, it's like. It's like you're. He's actually. That person ends up taking care of his friends almost. You know, it's like you start to move into a whole other category. Yeah, just. Just. I sometimes do try practices. My, like, whoever the waiter is, is to like. They sit, they tell me their name, and I repeat it back to them just so I can, like, catch. Capture it, you know? Right. Because if I don't, then it just goes away. Well, even like. Well, that's. That's one thing I felt so bad about. Like, that one guy that came up to us at the. The bitcoin conference or the bitcoin thing that we were at. His name is Willie. I spent so much time with this guy, but he also, like, wearing our shorts without shirts on, and he was like, fully dressed. Wait,

[44:22] Matt: what

[44:23] Michael: the. Willie? Oh, yeah. And I felt so bad. I was

[44:26] Matt: like. Because you were in the sauna.

[44:27] Michael: Yeah.

[44:28] Matt: Yeah. But you didn't recognize him?

[44:30] Michael: I did not recognize him. He came up and he was like, hey, how's it going? I was just like, tell me your name. He's like, willy. And then everything about Willy, like, jumped into my head and I was just like. I felt like such a shithead because I know him really well.

[44:44] Matt: Well, that's totally understandable, though, because when you know someone really well in a very particular context, it's very hard to recognize them outside of that context.

[44:54] Michael: Yeah.

[44:55] Matt: And he knew you were going to be there. He Already had been able. Had context switched and you

[45:00] Michael: hadn't. That makes sense. Yeah.

[45:02] Matt: But I'm very adamant that there's two things that no one should ever apologize for. One is repeating themselves, and two is asking for somebody's name.

[45:10] Michael: Yeah, I agree.

[45:13] Matt: Just remind me your name.

[45:16] Michael: Yeah.

[45:18] Matt: We're all guilty of it. And I think that admitting to somebody I forgot but I want to know is also just a really powerful thing. I'm glad you want to know my name. Happy to remind you.

[45:30] Michael: Yeah. God, it's so powerful just to.

[45:35] Matt: That happened to me recently. I saw somebody and I'm forgetting what it was now that I knew really well. But I totally didn't recognize out of context, and I did. I felt terrible. But it's a universal experience. I think we can all forgive each other for that.

[45:50] Michael: Totally. I really love this conversation because it just. It kind of brings everything to life. Like, things become more 3D, and you forget that how four dimensional or whatever the world really is if you just kind of pay attention. And

[46:10] Matt: isn't that crazy simple? Pay attention and say what it is you have to say.

[46:16] Michael: Yeah.

[46:16] Matt: Tell people what you think. Tell people I forgot your name.

[46:19] Michael: Especially if it's something positive.

[46:21] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not tell people everything you think, but when you have something good to say, well, it's like a

[46:27] Michael: fucking ugly ass shirt you got on.

[46:29] Matt: If you have something good to say, say it. If you have something bad to say, you know, maybe second guess it.

[46:35] Michael: Yeah.

[46:36] Matt: Or use Alison's rule of you're responsible for your. Not responsible for your first thoughts, but you are for your second thoughts and your first actions.

[46:46] Michael: Yeah, I love that.

[46:47] Matt: I feel like we've kind of gotten ourselves to this place a couple of times over recent episodes where I just feel like, gosh, I think we have so much more power to transform the world into a better place than we give ourselves credit for. And it doesn't take money and it doesn't take position or power. It's the simple things. It's the little things.

[47:05] Michael: Yeah. It really is.

[47:12] Matt: And I forget about it. And I think, oh, like you said, like, I'm excited to get. Get up and get to the shop tomorrow and see what I can do.

[47:21] Michael: Yeah.

[47:21] Matt: And then you wake up in a bad mood or frustrated about something else and you forget. You forget to pay attention. You forget to look at people. You forget to, you know, engage in the smallest, tiniest ways.

[47:34] Michael: Yeah.

[47:35] Matt: Because you're so obsessed with your own real, messy, drab life inside your head and comparing it with the fake Internet.

[47:46] Michael: Yeah.

[47:47] Matt: That you forget to transform real life.

[47:50] Michael: Oh, that's really good.

[47:55] Matt: I want to transform real life. I mean, I think the Internet has got us all convinced that what we really need to be successful can be found in a number of followers and likes that. If we're influencers, if we have a certain number of followers, then we're real people. How do you become a real boy? How does Pinocchio cut the strings? It probably somewhere around 30,000 Instagram followers, and this is such bullshit. I don't want Internet credibility. I want to be a real boy in my own life and to transform my own life and the people that are in my own life, not the people that, you know. Watch my Instagram story.

[48:45] Michael: Yeah. I don't know why this pops in my head is like, I never want a big party, but the only time I really want a big party is when I die.

[48:54] Matt: Okay?

[48:56] Michael: I'm serious.

[48:57] Matt: Die before me. I'll make it happen.

[49:01] Michael: I would just love for people to meet all the different people I've met. You know, I just. I don't know. I don't know why. That just sounds super exciting to me. I mean, it's kind of like what a lot of.

[49:17] Matt: Even if you're not there for it,

[49:18] Michael: and mostly because I'm not there for it.

[49:21] Matt: You're like, I want to eat all the meat, but I don't want anything to do with it.

[49:24] Michael: Anything to do with it.

[49:26] Matt: I'd like it to be about me, but I don't want to be there.

[49:29] Michael: Well, I mean, there's something about it that I would just like all these people to meet because, you know, again, like, the whole idea of, like. Like your dad, like, you held a certain part of your dad, and each person held a certain part of your dad. And so there was a way that everybody communed around the part that they knew of your dad. And it was. It's really. It was really beautiful. And then you saw how, you know, relationships are connected because of that. And I think I would just like that. I would love for people to meet each other because of me, you know?

[50:13] Matt: I mean, how would you feel if I held this party?

[50:16] Michael: No,

[50:17] Matt: but didn't tell you. I was like, hey, Michael, for your birthday this year, I'm sending you out to West Texas. There's no cell service out there. I've got five books that I've decided that you need to read. I'm sending you out there alone for some quiet time, and you're like, that sounds great. And you go. And then while you're Gone. I throw a big ass party. A Michael party.

[50:42] Michael: A Michael party. I think I'd be somewhat okay with that, but it still bothers me.

[50:47] Matt: Well, it's a stupid idea. I'm

[50:48] Michael: never gonna do it. Okay, good. But when I'm dead, I would be okay with that.

[50:54] Matt: Well, you're dead, so.

[50:55] Michael: Okay. You

[50:56] Matt: don't really get to say

[50:58] Michael: totally. I'm just putting it out in the ether right now, you know, but it's mostly just. I mean, there's something about that connection that you have, and that's just really beautiful, especially at funerals, that you just kind of get to, wow, this is the. This is the Mike McCloskey I knew. Who's the Mike McCloskey you knew? And that, to me, that's just really bad. I think that's really what's unfortunate about us. Not having Memorial for my dad.

[51:28] Matt: Yeah.

[51:28] Michael: It's not.

[51:29] Matt: Not getting that.

[51:30] Michael: Not having those stories shared.

[51:32] Matt: Yeah.

[51:32] Michael: For my kids, for me, for whatever, you know, it's like. It's just. It's just. That's just such a.

[51:40] Matt: Maybe you're sort of. Connecting to what I will frame as the difference between the fake Internet and the real world, which is that on the fake Internet, you don't ever get a real picture at somebody's life. And it's important to understand the real picture of people that you know and people that are important. And I was pretty surprised to learn recently a bit more of the backstory of Abraham Lincoln. And most people think of Abraham Lincoln and think of a very respectable, formidable president, a great writer. Ended slavery, ended the Civil War, Died for his country for it. But I heard this story that there was a time in Abe Lincoln's life where he was so depressed that he wouldn't leave his room and his family would deliver him food, but they would never let him have a knife because they were afraid he'd use it to end his life. And I thought, damn, it's really important that we understand that people are real people, that they struggle with real things.

[52:59] Michael: Totally.

[52:59] Matt: And even the ones that are most respected and remembered, you know, I, at this point in my life, probably haven't done anything to be remembered further than my grandchildren. Abraham Lincoln certainly did something to be remembered for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

[53:17] Michael: Well, this podcast will live on. For

[53:19] Matt: this podcast will live on. But he was a real person. He struggled. He had success, but he had failure. And I think, You know, of all the stories that were told to me about my dad in those weeks after his death and at his memorial, I got a picture of a man that was more deeply broken but also more deeply loving than maybe I had experienced on my own.

[53:59] Michael: Yeah.

[54:00] Matt: You know, it's like, because I heard these backstories, people who knew him when he was a teenager, you know, people who knew him in college, people who knew him when he was getting his masters, people that he had helped as a therapist, people he had failed as a therapist. You know, it's like, oh, I'm getting a fuller picture here. And that's such contrast from the fake Internet, where you don't ever get a full picture of anything.

[54:23] Michael: Yeah.

[54:23] Matt: And. What's the moral of the story? It's like, we should get to know people. Get to know the people that know those people.

[54:36] Michael: Yeah.

[54:36] Matt: You know, when somebody introduces you to somebody, take that seriously and get to know them, because you're gonna get to know that other person better too.

[54:45] Michael: Totally

[54:47] Matt: introduce people to each other.

[54:50] Michael: Yeah. You just forget how, like, rich life is. It's. It's. And it's really relational. That's. That's really. That's really kind of what it boils down to is, like, it's not how much money you've made or, you know, the things you've accomplished. It's. It's really the relationships that you have. And. And that's the most meaningful thing in life, you know, like. And even just kind of going back to the whole, you know, kids on phones type stuff and taking the opportunity to get to know my kids at every stage of their life. And even now where it's like, maybe interrupting some of those things. And,

[55:29] Matt: yeah,

[55:30] Michael: you know, I'll go in and, like, Austin's gaming, and I'm like, hey, buddy, how's it going? He's like. He's like, still like, hey, what's going on?

[55:39] Matt: Yeah,

[55:40] Michael: you know, just like, just small interruptions like that, you know? But, yeah, I definitely want to make it a more of a point to just tell people what I appreciate about them. You know, it's like, I think that's. That's something that's really. I think it's just really valuable. Like, you know, you take for granted, like, you know, even our relationship, but you and I just kind of take for granted that we come here on Wednesdays and we do this thing, you know, I don't think we necessarily really take it for granted, but. But I think we both really understand the value that it is just to us to do this. I don't feel like that's remiss on me. Remiss. I don't think I've used that word ever. But it's like, I mean, this is really valuable time. You and I have dinner and then podcast and then after podcast, and it's like. It's like, these are such rich times that we get to experience. Having Alison last week, that was like, oh, we need to have you on more often. This is at least like a quarterly thing with you, you know, your mom or whatever. But I don't know, it's. Yeah. Definitely want to make more of an effort to.

[57:00] Matt: Well, there's certainly, I think, a little voice in my head that comes out from time to time that's like, why are you doing this podcast? Nobody listens to it. It doesn't make any money. It's whatever. It's dead in the water as a business. It's one of the nine out of ten.

[57:17] Michael: Totally.

[57:19] Matt: But that's the same thing as thinking that my social credibility can be found in my number of followers and likes. It's the wrong value. It's the wrong measuring stick. It's like, no, we do this because it's been good for us.

[57:36] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[57:37] Matt: And we like doing it. And even when I don't want to do it and I think I don't want to do this tonight, if I just let go and let it happen by about 9 o', clock, we're both like, ah, this was so good.

[57:53] Michael: I'm

[57:54] Matt: so glad we did this.

[57:55] Michael: Yeah. But you think about how much is like, I mean, we. We've talked about this many times where, you know, just us doing this, how much it's also helped us in our. In our everyday life, too. You know, I mean, like, I gave a talk at the bitcoin conference, or bitcoin conference at a bitcoin meetup last week. And,

[58:14] Matt: yeah, that was super cool.

[58:15] Michael: A lot of the. I mean, a lot of my comfortability with doing that kind of stuff is because of this,

[58:22] Matt: which was funny because you kept trying to bring me into the conversation from the stage because you're just so used to. To us talking.

[58:28] Michael: It's so funny because I really was. I kept pointing at you.

[58:31] Matt: Yeah.

[58:31] Michael: And at one point I was like. I was like, it's like, you know, the same head, but different bodies. And it really had kind of like, little moments where I was. I kind of acknowledged it. But then it seems so natural, too. It's like I was like. Like, you're there. It's like, why aren't you talking? Also, like, we should be discussing things here.

[58:50] Matt: That's really funny.

[58:51] Michael: Or even Like, Willie was in the back and I was like. I was like, you know. You know, in the sauna, you know, it's like. It's like.

[58:57] Matt: Yeah.

[58:58] Michael: Come into the conversation. You're

[58:59] Matt: referencing the people that, you know.

[59:01] Michael: Yeah. It's like there's. There's something just really valuable about, you know, what. What we do here that also leads into the rest of. I mean, the types of conversation we have that are expounded upon outside of this, you know, like, for me, specifically in the sauna, because I'll talk to people about the things we've talked about here. You know,

[59:23] Matt: I gotta come with you to that sauna.

[59:25] Michael: You do? Really? It's seriously, any time. Like, it's really. I mean, some. Some days, like, especially in the wintertime, sometimes I might be the only person in there. But I do love it because I go at the same time every day. And so, like, this one guy, he's been away for a few months or whatever, and, you know, he shows up at the time I do, and he's. And, you know, we just strike back up into the conversation. But I love it because, like, people know I'm always there. It's like the same thing with. I think I have a thing for that because, like, a Metro, like, I was always a Metro. So everybody knew that if you just went the Metro, Mike was probably there.

[60:01] Matt: Well, that was also at a time when that was kind of a regular part of life, is that you knew where people would be because you had to, because there was no way to check.

[60:11] Michael: Totally. It's

[60:12] Matt: like in the 90s, if you weren't at home, you weren't reachable.

[60:16] Michael: You weren't reachable. Totally.

[60:18] Matt: So it's like, where might he be at this hour? Metro? Was the. Was that the coffee shop that was in the Guad

[60:28] Michael: location now? Yeah. Yeah. But there's so many. There's so many. It's like. It's hard because now, like, even just kind of bringing this stuff, I kind of see a lot of my failures in this area too. Like, there's. There's areas where I don't do that at Medici as much as I would. I would like to. And I don't know if it's because maybe I'm not able to as much anymore or maybe I'm just resistant to it. It's probably a little bit of both.

[60:55] Matt: Well, I think there's a third category.

[60:57] Michael: Oh, good.

[61:00] Matt: Because I. I don't think that it's not that it's. You're not able to, like. I Don't think you lose the ability, but I do think that you lose the willingness. And in some part that's resistance, which is selfish. But there's another part, a side of that coin, which is about a bit of wisdom or loss of naivety. You know, the social butterfly can be seen as a really naive person.

[61:32] Michael: That's a good point.

[61:33] Matt: And I think the older you get and the more experienced you get, the more you sort of understand what is and isn't worth engaging, so you engage less.

[61:43] Michael: Yeah.

[61:44] Matt: And maybe this is part of T.S. Eliot's wisdom when he says old men should be explorers.

[61:50] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[61:51] Matt: Is that you have all the information, the experience and the wisdom, and you should be getting out there exploring the world rather than. Because you having that. Because you have that information. Abstaining from the world.

[62:04] Michael: Yeah. God. So good. You know, I've also, like, found the last. Like. Like, it's been kind of nice to also just be sought after a little bit and to sort of like. Like, bless younger generation as far as, like, hey, I want to. I want to meet with you because I want to gain something from you. And not in a transactional way, but just. I just find that it's kind of like it makes me want to pay respects to people that are older than me and that how valuable that is to people. Like, hey, you're old, but you have something to share with me. And because I know whenever someone who does that with me, you know, it's like. It's like I feel very valued for that. You know, I think that's because nowadays it's like, I'm kind of the elder of most groups I'm in. And that's the part that I remember, too, as far as, you know, what I always. What I always wished or always liked about older people, when they listened to me, like, that was, like, so valuable. And I don't know what that is that, you know, and I think that's something that I really want to give back to.

[63:38] Matt: Well, that's just. An older person knows what's worth dealing with and not dealing with.

[63:47] Michael: And

[63:47] Matt: so an older person listens to you. That's pretty validating.

[63:50] Michael: Yeah.

[63:51] Matt: It's like you're giving me the dignity and respect of hearing me out.

[63:59] Michael: Yeah. Because even this morning I was talking to a person and. And she was sharing with me her experience. We were kind of going back and forth a little bit on experiences, and then at some point I realized it's like, no, she wants to tell me her experience, and I just need to listen not come back with my experience.

[64:17] Matt: Right.

[64:19] Michael: And I don't know why those things hit me the way they do at certain points, but I'm really thankful for that. It just kind of reminds me, it's like, hey, Michael, shut up. This isn't your time. You need to give this person. It was so valuable. I mean, I just loved it because I saw her light up when she was telling me the story of her experience, and I was just like, man, it's like, that's so cool, you know? Like, that's why that place is so valuable, is because of what you're just taught, what you were talking about, you know?

[64:48] Matt: Yeah. I think especially when you're young, you're trying to map everything that you experience onto your own experience. And so when you're having a conversation with someone, you're simultaneously thinking about your own experience with the subject matter or whatever, which means that you're kind of constantly coming up with your response as they're talking, which means you're spending less energy than you could listening because you're trying to think about what you're going to say next. And I have noticed that. I'm very guilty of that. But it has gotten easier as I've gotten older to not have to have something to say and to only just listen.

[65:30] Michael: Totally. Because there are times where it's like, no, this is actually. You need to share. Like, this is your time to. To. To give your experience. And it's hard. I think that's the part you have to, like, learn, like, kind of what you. I think as you get older, that's. That's even becomes even more valuable because you have so much more to actually share, but. But to know when. Okay, no, this is. This is more about them wanting to share with me, you know, And I think that's. To be able to shut up and listen. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's such a valuable thing, I mean, giving people space. We had our upper management party on Monday, and I was just telling them how thankful I was for them, just for just how smooth the transition was as they came into their positions and stuff. And again, it came back to that guy who said, tell people what you appreciate. And I just love that that person was just sharing wisdom on Twitter. And we're talking about Twitter being this sort of mind suck, you know?

[66:40] Matt: Right.

[66:41] Michael: But also, like, there is. There are things, but it's all about, like, how do we apply this into our lives? Like, how do we. It should be empowering and not sucking our life, you know?

[66:51] Matt: Right.

[66:52] Michael: And it's hard sometimes to distinguish between the two,

[66:57] Matt: as most powerful things are.

[66:59] Michael: Totally. That's the truth. Yeah. Well, nothing else. I think this conversation has really, like, inspired me to. To kind of be more open, you know, like that.

[67:14] Matt: Well, let's give ourselves some homework and remember the transformative power that we have in the simple interactions.

[67:24] Michael: Totally.

[67:24] Matt: And to give people more compliments,

[67:29] Michael: like, I loved having you at that bitcoin meetup, man. That was really fun. Like, just. It was also out of context for us, too, which is. Which is really fun talking to that. Was he a lawyer? Was he. No, he's a financial advisor. He kind of did financial advising and stuff like that. Like, it was kind of fun because, like, at one point, I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. Matt and I are doing, like, a podcast with this guy right now,

[67:55] Matt: A little mini podcast. Yeah.

[67:58] Michael: Yeah, that was. That was really fun.

[68:01] Matt: Yeah, that was fun. It's fun to. Well, your point. How'd you say it? One brain, two bodies.

[68:11] Michael: Totally.

[68:12] Matt: It was like we were out on the town together, having many podcasts, supplying our brain from our two bodies to

[68:21] Michael: our two bodies

[68:22] Matt: to social conversations.

[68:24] Michael: Exactly. That's great.

[68:26] Matt: I made sure to throw in your wife.

[68:30] Michael: Totally.

[68:30] Matt: From time to time. Yeah. All right, well,

[68:34] Michael: cool.

[68:35] Matt: It's been a good

[68:36] Michael: one. Definitely. Yeah. Love you guys.

[68:37] Matt: Cheers. And I'll start with you, listener. I think you're beautiful.

[68:44] Michael: You're amazing.

[68:44] Matt: Yeah.

[68:45] Michael: Go change the world. Go change the world. Go say hi to the person, whoever that person is. Marine.