2026 is a Blank Canvas

[0:21] Matt: It's a knickknack. Paddy whack. Give the frog alone. Have you ever heard that Norm Macdonald joke?

[0:28] Michael: Yeah, I think so. It's pretty funny. Norm Macdonald. Yeah, he was an original in his.

[0:35] Matt: Really, one of a kind. Yeah.

[0:38] Michael: It's like if someone else were to do it, I don't think they could

[0:40] Matt: pull it all. Yeah, totally. Here we are.

[0:46] Michael: Here we are. The new year 2026 to

[0:49] Matt: the

[0:49] Michael: shores. I feel like shores. How I miss the.

[0:55] Matt: Maybe. Maybe it's like this every year, but I feel like 2026 is a year that I didn't think would ever exist. Sounds like a up year.

[1:03] Michael: It does. How

[1:04] Matt: are we this far into the future?

[1:06] Michael: I don't even know. You

[1:07] Matt: remember the 90s?

[1:09] Michael: Those are the good old days.

[1:10] Matt: Yeah. Never would have imagined 2026. It doesn't feel all that futuristic compared to what I would have expected when I was, you know, 16 years old.

[1:21] Michael: No. Yeah. I think 2000 was like the, like, all I could think of at that point. And then after 2000 is sort of like, okay, I guess we're just doing years now.

[1:33] Matt: We just do years.

[1:34] Michael: Yeah.

[1:35] Matt: Just every year it's another year.

[1:37] Michael: Yeah. And I think then Covid was the only other, like, sort of abrupt in that abrupt. What do you call it? Thing that got in the way. Suspension. Yeah.

[1:49] Matt: Suspension of reality. Suspension of disbelief.

[1:51] Michael: I still don't think. I feel like I'm completely around that yet.

[1:55] Matt: No, I don't feel like I am either. I don't. It. The world just feels like a different place than it did pre2020.

[2:02] Michael: Yeah.

[2:03] Matt: And I don't like. I just, like, mean the feeling of it. The vibes of it. You know, the vibes are. The vibes are off.

[2:11] Michael: Well, so many things escalated at that point, too. I felt like it might have just been for you and I. Specifically, you and I kind of went through a lot of the same things together, but I felt like the mask came off or something.

[2:26] Matt: Yeah.

[2:27] Michael: And before, it was sort of like, yeah, there were some things like that I was like, I don't know about that. But now I'm pretty much like, I don't know about that. About everything

[2:37] Matt: I know.

[2:39] Michael: Which is. Which is an interesting way to encounter reality now. But is that a midlife person thing where. Because I know my parents were talking about, like, Israel and stuff like that. And I don't know.

[2:52] Matt: I think it's a confluence of things. It probably has Something to do with us being in midlife. But I think pretty much, I think a lot of people feel that way of a lot of different ages. I kind of get the sense that Gen Z feels that way. Do you remember when, I don't know, this was maybe six months ago. Osama bin Laden's letter pre 911 was his open letter talking about what he was going to do was circulating and it was kind of like a Ted Bundy moment. You go read Ted Bundy's, you know, manifesto or whatever and this guy's making some pretty solid points. He did some real shitty things but he was, you know, he was super high IQ and he was, you know. So it's sort of like this. I can't keep track of all the color of the pills. Black pill, red pill, white pill, I don't know what the pills are. It's like one of those pill moments though. And Gen Z was like, holy shit. You know, Osama bin Laden isn't who we were told he is or was. So I kind of feel like there's. Everyone has a bit of an appetite for oh, things are different than we thought. Which is almost kind of a post woke kind of thing. I mean that was what the original sentiment of woke was, is like you think things are this way, but really they're this way. And that's kind of permeated into all aspects of people's thinking at some level.

[4:07] Michael: Yeah, yeah, it's almost like that as like a generated awoke that first part of it or the first. Maybe it didn't, maybe not the beginning of the sort of like that woke sort of idea but it sort of all of a sudden just got co opted into something that was even more false narrative than.

[4:31] Matt: Yeah, but I guess it's not a new thing either. I mean that's the story of the wizard of Oz. Things are not as they seem. How many. It's an archetypal

[4:41] Michael: true

[4:41] Matt: thing.

[4:42] Michael: Yeah, it's like the hobbits in Hobbitville or whatever, you know. Hobbiton.

[4:47] Matt: Hobbiton,

[4:48] Michael: Hobbiton, yeah. It's like they live this life but at the protection of all those around them, you know, and you don't. They didn't, they didn't know that until. Well, there's this whole world out there and actually protecting us from so much evil.

[5:03] Matt: Well maybe it's that way because we imagine whatever the truth is to be something that's sort of self evident that you can just observe and there it is. And now I know it and I don't think the truth is like that. The truth is something that unfolds, it's revealed. It's like, you know, you see some geographic object in the distance. You're maybe you're camping out in West Texas or something, and the sun rises and you see that object and you think you know what it is. And then as the sun gets higher and higher, it starts to be revealed more and more and you see it in different light and then the sun goes over its highest point and then the shadows on the object change. And you can watch that object all day long and continue to know what it is. Continue to. For what it is to be revealed to you. The features and natures of it.

[5:55] Michael: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of what we've talked about all kind of last year is like how everything is relational if you, how you're relating to that object. But if it's from a distance, you might not see it as clearly. And it kind of like morphs and changes, but as you get closer to it, you have a more specific, detailed vision of it. But the person far away might have a larger context of that object. And it's like, kind of like zooming in and zooming out is helpful to give more context to what, like what that is, you know, because like what the hobbits had was something that was beautiful and good and something to preserve, you know. But if you also don't see like what, what was protecting that, it's hard to really appreciate.

[6:43] Matt: Well, and also if you live in the Shire, you're naive by necessity. Not necessity, but by definition. I mean, the more protected you are, the more naive you are. But I mean, if, if truth is something which unfolds and it is revealed, then, you know, and especially if that's, if, if that's true in the best case, which I think that it is people manipulating reality and hiding motives and incentives from the people around them and claiming that things are a way that they know that they aren't. As you start to learn that, you start looking for it almost everywhere because it is the nature of things, that things are hidden and how much is hidden because of the nature of the truth and how much is hidden because people are hiding it from us. And I think that's kind of the post Covid sentiment is. I don't know how much is being hidden from me, but I think that it's a lot more than I thought it was.

[7:54] Michael: Well, it's also just like how the, the manipulated, manipulating the, the narrative. I think with this Whole Somalia thing in Minnesota and the daycare centers. It's.

[8:04] Matt: Yeah. What do you make of that?

[8:05] Michael: Well, it's. It's more been fascinating to listen to other people and how they've encountered it where, you know, this guy. Shirley. Shirley, Nick Shirley, like, he goes and does all this investigative. There's one guy he's with, he's been doing this for a year, more about these things. And, and you know, there's no daycares. There's no people at the daycares. And they're. The. One of the centers is called the leering center, not the learning center. Right. And so it was interesting because I got saw a bit by Chris D'Elia and he made the point of like, well, he went on Christmas, of course there's not going to be anybody there. But then. But because I've looked into a little bit more than that, it was just like, well, that was one instant. Like he's been doing this for a while. And it's not just that they're. It's like, yes, they might, they might have gone on one day was like in the Christmas break, you know, but this is not just the Christmas break. And so just to hear, you know, depending on what people are hearing, like, or, you know, now they'll show classes with people in them and you're like, oh, well, there's kids here all the time. And okay, was that one place of the hundred? Or is it. Or is this. Is this a staged event? And so it's just a lot more complicated than what I think people tend to look at it. So it depends on what narrative you want to hear.

[9:26] Matt: Why do you think there's people trying to invalidate the reporting that Nick Shirley's doing? They don't want it to be true that there's fraud.

[9:34] Michael: Well, I think there's this whole racist narrative and these Somalians that have come here, they belong here. It's sort of like this kind of like a racist narrative kind of thing that's being pushed out that you're just doing this because they're Somalians and that kind of fits that sort of woke narrative. And it's Democrats that are in charge of the state and that kind of allow this to happen. And so if you're on that team, then you're going to look for all the ways that that's not true. And obviously if you're on the other team, you're going to look at all the ways that it is true. And. But then it's like, well, what is actually true? And it just looks like there's a whole lot of fraud going on. Whether there's some cases where it's not. There might be 10 out of 100 or 98 out of 100 that are not fraud or whatever. But it definitely does seem like a lot more than.

[10:31] Matt: Yeah, but it's like, how much fraud is too much fraud? Any fraud is bad, and we should stop. I mean, it seems believable to me, really, in the context of the doge. The. The stuff that DOGE unveiled about, like, USAID and all of that. But the same people were trying to claim that that wasn't, you know, a problem either.

[10:54] Michael: Oh, and someone did this one thing where so most. The average person pays about $13,000 in taxes and. Oh, shoot. What was it like for. For one of these daycare centers? It was like 70,000 people. Like, their 70,000 people's taxes went to that daycare center. One

[11:16] Matt: daycare center. Yeah. That allegedly has no children. So that money is just going into the pockets of the people who set up the business.

[11:24] Michael: Yeah. So when she put it like that, I was just like, oh, my gosh, man. So it doesn't matter if it's just one. It's like one that's 70,000 people. Like,

[11:36] Matt: I mean, it kind of like it fits my lived experience. I hate using that word, but I always have this. I have this sentiment a lot where I'm looking around, especially in a place like Austin. You know, Austin's very affluent, and there's a lot of tech here, and a lot of people have a lot of money. And, you know, I do pretty well. I have a decent amount of money. I have a lot of money compared to what I thought was a lot of money when I was a kid. Um, but I find myself looking around and I'm. I'm looking around at the people around me that live in the houses around me, and they drive next to me on the roads or going out to the restaurants or whatever. And I'm like, how are you pulling this off? How are you doing this? Because I am, like, struggling to, like, pull this off.

[12:21] Michael: Yeah.

[12:22] Matt: What are you doing to make this work? You know? And to some degree, it's like this story of these people that are just taking. They're just on the take from the government, whether it's USAID or the daycares in Minnesota, or the homelessness, anti homelessness budget that California allocates. 24 billion. Homelessness only increases. It's like, okay, that kind of checks out. It's like, okay, some of you are just ripping the government off.

[12:53] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[12:54] Matt: And that's how you're pulling it off. So I'm inclined to believe it from that perspective.

[13:00] Michael: Yeah. Well, just think. Because

[13:03] Matt: I feel like there's something. I don't know.

[13:05] Michael: Yeah.

[13:05] Matt: You know?

[13:07] Michael: Yeah. It's so. Well, it's. It's. It's like I would have probably labeled the stuff that we're talking about right now more conspiracy theory, probably ten years ago.

[13:14] Matt: Right.

[13:14] Michael: And now I'm like, well, no, it's more. It's more believable than it is not.

[13:21] Matt: Yeah, right.

[13:22] Michael: It's like, I know there was government waste, but now I'm like, wow, like, government ways. Like, even for us, like, a billion dollars, like, it doesn't really register for me, like, what a billion dol. Dollars is.

[13:34] Matt: Right.

[13:35] Michael: And that's a lot of money.

[13:38] Matt: It's a thousand millions.

[13:39] Michael: A thousand millions. Which is insane to me. Like, I don't even know.

[13:47] Matt: What. Are you opening your calculator?

[13:49] Michael: Yeah.

[13:51] Matt: No, a billion is a lot of money.

[13:53] Michael: Yeah. So a billion dollars is 76,000, 77,000 taxpayers paying $13,000 in taxes. So that's like. Let's just call it 80,000 people's taxes going to one fraud. Not to mention, like, times 24, which is the. The homeless situation.

[14:17] Matt: This is not going to be like, an accurate quote, but I saw somebody say that of the estimated fraud in America, if we were to cancel all of it, you could also cancel the income tax for anyone who makes less than 500,000 a year and not affect the budget.

[14:37] Michael: Oh, wow.

[14:38] Matt: That's how much fraud there is. Apparently it's something like half of our taxpayer dollars go to fraud, which is crazy.

[14:47] Michael: That is so crazy. It's like, you think us as taxpayers would be elated by. But now we're like, tax the rich. It's like, well,

[14:53] Matt: right.

[14:54] Michael: So we can give more to fraudulent.

[14:57] Matt: Right. Well, it's not even. It's not even that some people aren't elated to find that and get rid of it. They're actually arguing that we shouldn't get rid of it.

[15:12] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know really where to go with that other than, you know, definitely seeing. Feeling more and more like reality is not as I thought it was.

[15:23] Matt: I know. Seems that way to me, too,

[15:27] Michael: which I kind of. I kind of more comfortable.

[15:29] Matt: Do you think reality is something to be figured out? Like, if reality is not what you thought it was, are we then to go, okay, well, what is it really? And can we figure out how to play this game.

[15:42] Michael: Well, I think I'll go back to like what we talked about first. I think reality is relational. It's how you relate to it. So, like, if you and I are to have a good relationship, like, I need to be interacting with the real Matt more and more. Like, I can't. I can't interact with a mat that I have a make believe idea of who you are. Like this just. That's just not going to be very meaningful. And so I think the more. But you're also, I mean, you're also figuring out who you are too. So it's like I'm also in the process of you discovering who you are. You know, I think reality is something that's bigger than that, that it already is what it is. But also how we interact with it also changes it too, you know? Well, maybe I would go back on that.

[16:27] Matt: Seems true to me.

[16:29] Michael: Well, I think it changes our. It doesn't change it. It's like our relationship changes with it. And so I think that's the part. But so if you're not interacting with reality in what it actually is, then it's like interacting with somebody like your wife and interacting with her in a way that that's not who she is and your relationship's going to get more and more separate. And I think that's kind of the definition of insanity is when your relationship with reality is not accurate.

[17:02] Matt: Well, isn't all of our relationship with reality somewhat inaccurate?

[17:07] Michael: It is. I think it kind of goes back to that same idea, that paradox. You know, it's like, I know who I am, yet I don't know who I am. It's like. But there's this part that you're. You're in a discovery of who you are. At the same time, it's like you are who you are. And. And that's like, I know who I am, but also don't know who I am.

[17:26] Matt: These are crazy concepts. It's like, who I am. I am who I am and I don't know who I am, but I know who I am. What does it even mean?

[17:35] Michael: Yeah,

[17:35] Matt: who I am.

[17:37] Michael: But it's funny, it's. I mean,

[17:38] Matt: is there. Is there anything sort of like objective about that?

[17:43] Michael: I think so. It just. There's just again, it's like a relationship, you know, Like I have a relationship with myself too. It's like there's a certain way that you could define me. But does it define me? No. But is it accurate? Yes. And the more accurate you are, I think the fuller life you live. It's a more meaningful life, the more accurate you are with reality and who you are. But it's also. You have to have a good relationship of not knowing, too. Like, you have to have a good relationship with the discovering aspect of that, too. It's like that tension of the paradox, I think, is very. It's necessary in any sort of relationship, whether it be with reality or with somebody else or with yourself. Because I think that's where we become unhinged, is whenever we become too strict in our understanding of ourselves. Like, this is who I am, or I don't know who I am. This

[18:44] Matt: is who I am. This is how I respond to these particular kinds of situations. This is my position on such and such.

[18:51] Michael: Yeah. And it's set in stone. There's nothing that can change or will change about it.

[18:56] Matt: Right.

[18:58] Michael: Like, that's. That just tends towards

[19:01] Matt: Sam Harris.

[19:03] Michael: Exactly. No, it's a great example. Yeah.

[19:06] Matt: Yeah.

[19:08] Michael: So I don't know. It's. It's definitely been fun to get that cage kind of rattled a little bit as far as how we perceive the world. I mean, you and I experienced that with how he perceived money. You know, that was like, yeah, I thought money was just money, and you just. It was just a dollar. Was a dollar. It's like, oh, no, it's not.

[19:35] Matt: Sort of occurs to me, going back to the conversation about COVID and the difference between Pre and post 2020. I think post 2020, my cage was rattled because I started experimenting with saying what I thought about things, and that's a hard thing to do. It's much easier to say what you're supposed to think about something than it is to say what you actually think about something. Because what you're supposed to say about something is scripted. The words are there. You can just grab them and repeat them. But what you actually think about something, you actually have to go find the words for that. You have to figure that out. I remember the first time I encountered that. It was right after suppose George Floyd died, and there was on Instagram this thing going around in Austin where it was this pie chart of the budget of the Austin Police Department, and they were getting people to vote on how to reallocate the budget of the Austin Police Department. And it was really popular. Everybody was posting it, and people were showing it to me, and I was just thought, hold on. There's something really fishy here. Like, no one on Instagram is qualified to, like, address the budget of the Austin Police Department. Like, why do we think that just the Layman on the couch has any insight to give on that.

[21:04] Michael: Yeah,

[21:05] Matt: but I found it really difficult to express what I found fishy about it, and I had to really work hard at that. And then you say it, and it's unpopular because, you know, everybody's saying the thing that they're supposed to say. Everybody's saying the popular thing, and you go against that to say what you really think. That's. That's. It's difficult to do. You're incentivized not to do it, you know, by your own. What is it, your. Your own instinct to preserve your relationships?

[21:36] Michael: Totally.

[21:39] Matt: You know, and there's all kinds of places where that came up. You know, came up about the police in general. Everybody wanted to defund the police. It came up about racism. It came up about COVID and the vaccines and all kinds of things. But I feel much better off having worked hard to articulate what I actually thought, even if it turns out that what I thought was wrong then had I just sort of gone along with the easy way, which is to grab the words that are available to you that are already being spoken by someone else.

[22:15] Michael: Yeah. It's hard not to go along with the social narrative because there's also something that's preserving culturally, like, okay, hey, this is who we are as Americans, or we share this certain commonality, or even you and I have a certain ethos and social narrative that we have, and part of. It's helpful for us to get along, and this is what we do. And, you know, if. If you change something, I'm like, wait, what. Wait a minute. What's going on here? You know, like, are we in a relationship? You know, like, and. And I think that's part of. Whenever you go against the social norms or the social narrative is sort of like, wait, are we on the same team here? Or is this like. Is this like. And then some people is like, no, you're not on the same team because you disagree on this one thing where you and I, like, you know, if. If we disagree on something or if we disagree with someone else, it's like, no, we're still on the same team. We're on the team of, like, seeking the truth. You know, it's like, I might be wrong, you might be wrong, but I want to know what the truth is. Where sometimes with the social narrative is. It's like, no, it's not about the truth. It's about the social narrative. And if you don't get along or get on with this, get on board with this, then you're out.

[23:28] Matt: Yeah.

[23:29] Michael: And, you know, I feel like. I mean, you do have to have some. Some out group type of. How to distinguish, like, okay, no, that person's on the out group. Like, you have. That's a healthy boundary to have. And. And I think it's just. But it's doing it very lightly where I felt like it. It wasn't done lightly in the. In the COVID area. You know, I mean, does that make sense as far as, like, discluding people or ideas because they're not helpful or they're actually bad ideas? We can all agree that racism is a bad idea. Let's not do that.

[24:14] Matt: Well, I don't know that we all can agree on that.

[24:16] Michael: Yeah, maybe not. But generally speaking, it's like. And so someone who is actually racist, not like the woke, everyone's racist type thing, but like, you'd probably be like, okay, hey, all right, I'm still interacting with you. But that's. There's. That's probably. I can't. I can't get on board with that. You know, but you also might

[24:36] Matt: point to you making.

[24:37] Michael: Well, just that. That there's some parts where you. You do have to kind of draw the line in the sand. But I would say, like, okay, on that point, but there might be some points that you actually agree with this person on. You know, maybe they're a good. It doesn't mean they're a bad father or a mother or something like that, but maybe they're off in that one area. And. And so it's like, I think there's too much discarding the whole. For maybe a singular point of view that you disagree on.

[25:09] Matt: I'm struggling to find where you're going with

[25:13] Michael: that. Sorry. No, I think I'm just trying to, like, I'm mostly just trying to think through the whole idea of, you know, you know, if truth is a relationship, you know, and if you disagree on. On one part, you know, it's like, what's. What's. What's the value judgment of, like, in the woke thing was pretty much if you don't follow the social narrative, then you're discarded. But it's like, you know, but then also find that there's some places where that is actually good and healthy to discard.

[25:46] Matt: To discard a person socially. When is it good and healthy to discard a person socially?

[25:50] Michael: Yeah, I mean, we kind of do with prisons, you know, like someone murders somebody or violates something. Like we do, like. Or put them in time out.

[26:00] Matt: I mean, it seems like you're maybe wrestling with the. The problems and inevitability of tribalism. I mean, tribalism is protective in one sense, and so that's a good thing because there are things that should be protected, but it also ostracizes as a means of protection. And if you're not going to go along to get along in some sense, then you've got to be in the out group. But that's also very damaging. And it leads to war. Right. It leads to plunder. It leads to all kinds of things that we would rather not see happen. It seems like. It seems to me that there's a real. We're kind of stuck in a bind there because we need tribalism and we also sort of abhor it.

[26:50] Michael: Yeah. Because it is necessary. Like, I mean, the tribalism of World War II, where, you know, Hitler was coming and he kept going and he kept going, and it's like at some point, like, nope, you've gone too far now. You're an out group.

[27:09] Matt: Well, I mean, maybe the solution to it is the same solution to, like, what is your relationship with reality supposed to be? Like, I mean, if I'm one tribe and you're another tribe, and we just vehemently disagree on all kinds of things, it's probably best for peace that we live our separate lives. Right. But that's going to be. There's going to be a point of conflict in between us if we breach that line. And at some point, somebody's going to do it, whether purposefully or accidentally, and that's going to lead to conflict. But we also need to. We should learn from each other. I mean, the same way that the market economy works out what the market wants, by throwing a bunch of ideas at a problem and letting nine out of 10 businesses fail to figure out what the solution is. Um, if you live insulated in a bubble, you're not going to progress very much. And so you need to be exposed to ideas that challenge you, ideas that show you something from another perspective, show you something in a way that you wouldn't have seen it on your own. And maybe that's why. Well, so I think what I was trying to get to is, you know, you kind of have to hold strong opinions lightly when it comes to reality, which is sort of a call to humility. Like, I don't know what is reality. I don't know what is being hidden from me. I don't know what to believe, but I have to be here anyway. I have to live in this world anyway. And so I've got to. I have to sort of be somewhat cautious. It's almost like a. It's a position of faith. I'm going to take the position that I'm going to get to know reality, and it's going to be bumpy, and I'm going to get scrapes and bruises. And tribalism is sort of like that. I think it can lead to war, but it can also lead to progress. And we have to sort of hold that line of conflict lightly rather than just completely separate ourselves from one another. It reminds me a lot of, you know, the modern left in the west has become very tribalistic in that any indication that you might not be a hundred percent in agreement with them leads to complete ostracization. And that's not good. It's not good because you're going to be wrong about some things, and it would be good for you if you could know what those things are. And the only way you're going to figure out what those things are is if whether reality slaps you upside the head with the right answer or somebody who sees things differently can kindly show you. But if you ostracize everyone who sees things differently, then you have no option to be kindly shown, and you just have to wait for reality to smack you upside the head.

[30:12] Michael: Yeah.

[30:14] Matt: And so I think that's an example of why that extreme tribalism is not good for those who participate in it. But I do understand the need for tribalism because, well, I want to collect. I want to collect my own and keep them as safe as possible. I mean, my children, that's my tribe, my friends, my family, that's my tribe. I want to keep them as safe as possible. And so if somebody. It's like, you don't have to know exactly what I think about, you know, maybe the trans issue or LGBTQ rights or any of that. I might just say, hey, you know what? I'm gonna deal with my kids on that, so I'm gonna opt them out of that sex education course at school. And I'm not ostracizing anybody politically. I'm just saying I'm gonna protect my own. I'm gonna control that narrative. I trust myself to control that narrative more than I do the political pundits and the curriculum writers and the teachers and the activists and all of these people who really want to have something to say about my children's sexuality and how and when they should use their bodies and their genitals. And I just want to say no to that.

[31:31] Michael: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's like, we definitely need. I think that's why the US System is, Is. Is really good in that it allows for that opposition, you know, And I think that's when I, I don't like it. Whenever, sort of like that divide between right and left gets too definitive, you know, whether it's like Hillary clank, calm deplorables, or even sometimes like the far left is even overused and people are categorized into that. That's like maybe not in that far left group, you know, and so it's like, it's like we need that middle ground to, to really kind of sharpen our. Sharpen each other.

[32:17] Matt: It seems like that's totally gone, though.

[32:19] Michael: Well, I don't think it is because, like most of the people, the center now is, is. Is mostly like labeled right, but it's really center left and center right, but it has become labeled as right. The center left is being labeled as right. So I still feel like it's there because I feel like you're seeing that movement and momentum even with, Even with Trump, who I would consider more of a center person, you know, maybe center right, you know, where he. But he gets called far right all the time, but his policies and what he's doing is definitely not far right, you know, as far as, like, you know, like, again, like, he's not an isolationist. He's a free market guy and he wants free trade and stuff like that, but he also just doesn't want the US to get screwed. He's like, hey, I'm the CEO of this company and I'm supposed to look out for this company called the US and so I want good trade relationships and fair trade relationships with these other countries. So I think that's. I think that's. I feel like I'm seeing more and more of that coming back to center. Where I feel like with starting with Obama and then even with Biden is like we started getting into all these really socialist principles, even communist principles that were kind of driving us into this world where there is only one narrative and that's what the group is considers acceptable. And we're heading back to. I feel like we're more and more heading back into that tension of ideas.

[34:07] Matt: I hope so.

[34:11] Michael: But you don't sound very hopeful.

[34:17] Matt: I would be really surprised. I'd be really surprised. I think that there has to be a really major sea change, and maybe that's coming. Maybe that's coming with Gen Z and with the younger millennials, as, as they get older. You know, I don't know Seems like we're about to lose a lot of our politicians because they're all old as fuck, you know, and it does seem like some of the older sort of cornerstone issues of progressivism have. They've. They failed, you know, they've gone by the wayside. And that's going to be a kind of a slow process. But so maybe,

[34:57] Michael: yeah,

[34:57] Matt: maybe we get back to some form of sort of cultural sanity. I don't know. But it does feel like. It feels like all of a sudden we've realized that we're just speaking of our culture. We're living in a. In a sense in a. In a house that we thought we knew. And we've discovered that there's all these trap doors in secret rooms and hidden passages that certain people have been using and known about and we didn't know. So we've got to, like, reevaluate what our surroundings are, what our reality is.

[35:32] Michael: Yeah.

[35:35] Matt: You know, I think we just took a lot of things for granted. I mean, even just paying taxes, you know. Why do you pay taxes? Oh, just because it's good for the country and

[35:43] Michael: education,

[35:45] Matt: all these things. And then it's like, wait, but half of my money is just going into the pockets of fraudsters or being sent off to fund terrorism or being sent to other countries. I don't pay taxes to give money to other countries, you know, for programs to investigate or study transgender dogs or whatever it is, you know, not to mention, oh, nobody paid taxes at all between before 1913. How'd they do it then? You know, it's like, why are we doing these things? You know, or even like, I think a lot of people are. What would you call it? I don't even want to say. It's on the right. It's not on the right. It's the right and the left. But the left has mostly ostracized them. You know, RFK Jr. Being the sort of ring bearer there.

[36:39] Michael: Tulsi Gabbard. Yeah,

[36:40] Matt: and Tulsi Gabbard. But, you know, our whole view of Western medicine is coming into, like, severe. Under severe scrutiny. You know, I went from like, I was not an anti vaxxer at all. You know, vaccines are great. They're probably like the triumph of the Western world. It's the best thing that man's ever invented. Something like that, I probably would have said. And then the COVID vaccines came out and I really took a hard look at them and decided I didn't really want to have anything to do with it. And I didn't Want that in my kids to now. I am now a full on anti vaxxer. I don't want any vaccines touching my, my tribe, my people. I don't think there's a case to be made that they're a benefit to them. But that's so anathema to the older sort of Western religion. You know, we really thought highly of ourselves as Westerners. You know, we've got the best medicine, we know what we're talking about. We have all these things that are so protective of our health. And it turns out that upon looking deeper into it, all the evidence actually points the other way. We just renamed all the evidence. The solution to vaccines causing more harm than good was something called the Child Vaccine safety act of 1986, I believe, which makes it sound like, oh, we did something to make sure our children are safe.

[38:10] Michael: Yeah,

[38:10] Matt: all that act did was gave vaccine manufacturers immunity from liability. We just covered it up and Congress did that.

[38:22] Michael: So crazy.

[38:23] Matt: What the fuck? I

[38:24] Michael: mean, if I didn't know what you were talking about, I would just be like, you don't know what you're talking about, Matt. I

[38:28] Matt: know,

[38:30] Michael: but I

[38:31] Matt: know and I'm willing to be wrong. And the thing that makes me so, like, crazy in the head about it is if you talk about some of these things, there's a whole group of people that will instantly cut you off.

[38:45] Michael: Yeah,

[38:46] Matt: there's all kinds of topics like this.

[38:47] Michael: Yeah, there's, there's a lot. Yeah, this, this, this whole thing, everything you just said just absolutely drives me crazy because for me, there's nothing off the table. It's like, let's, yeah, let's talk about it. It's like nothing is ever as clear as it seems and I would like to poke holes in it. And if you try to say something is definitively true, then I'm like, to me that's like red flags. Like, wait a minute. It's like I think like thinking in bets. Like, like, what do you, what do you. Is it 90% true what you're saying? Do you believe it's 90 true, 80 true, 40% true? Like I can get behind that. Like even some of the beliefs I hold strongly. It's like I can never say a hundred percent because I don't know what I don't know.

[39:48] Matt: Yeah,

[39:48] Michael: and some things that might be 95 might be 80 next year and 70 the other and then back to 90, but.

[39:57] Matt: Well, I guess I understand why people don't want to look at things like that. I mean, it's the classic problem of the Matrix. It's like, if you're Neo, you know, we're living in this reality where we're asking oursel that same question. It's like, what is real? What's the reality? Follow the white rabbit.

[40:20] Michael: Yeah.

[40:21] Matt: What if the white rabbit leads you into a fluorescent, dimly lit, crampy ship eating mush and your muscles don't work? You know, it's like you wake up from your dream into reality.

[40:39] Michael: Yeah.

[40:40] Matt: Are you happy about that? You know, Cypher wasn't. Cypher wanted to go back. And I understand that. I understand the desire to go back to ignorance. Because sometimes when you learn the truth, it's a real. Son of a.

[40:54] Michael: Totally.

[40:55] Matt: You know, it's like, I think we've talked about this before. I mean, I have. I've known people that stopped pursuing questions when the answer started to look like it might be the worst thing they could imagine. And I get it.

[41:09] Michael: Yeah. Which is hard for my. Like, I don't know how to teach this to my kids because there's different lessons to be learned at different times. And you have to figure out, is this that time? Because, like, you know, my daughter Hazel's playing basketball and she doesn't like it. She's good at it. And when she's actually into it, she's. She's way into it. And I had this conversation with her and I wasn't sure if I was doing it well or like, I was actually benefiting her or it was actually harmful. And that was really difficult for me to like. It's like, you know, how do you push somebody in something that even though it's difficult and they don't like it, that it's actually good for them? And I was kind of having that battle in my head of, is this a place where she needs to learn this or is this a place that. No, this isn't the right time or the right place for that lesson. But I want my kids to learn. It's like, yeah, sometimes you're not going to like something. Sometimes you have to learn to like it. And sometimes when you learn to like it, you learn. You actually really enjoy it.

[42:14] Matt: This great quote by C.S. Lewis, he talks about how school, school kids will, you know, complain about having to learn their grammar, but they complain about it because they can't imagine the joy of reading the great poets and the great authors. And you can't ever experience that joy unless you go through with the task of learning the thing that you don't want to learn. There's a great joy on the Other side of discipline.

[42:43] Michael: Yeah. I think that also applies to kind of what we're talking about, truth too. You know, it's like you have to be open to it and open to discussion and being wrong. And if you're. If you're not, then, you know, you're just going to live a very shallow life and, you know, not experience things. It's like, you know, just what I want for my kids is that, you know, I want them to feel challenged and I want them to be uncomfortable and learn how to enjoy that and actually, like, thrive in that. You know, obviously it shouldn't be like a 100% state all the time, but you do need to learn how to have the conversation with somebody about something you maybe hold very dearly, you know, whether it's a religious belief or political belief, and have it challenged and not lose yourself in it. Yeah. You know, but I think that's hard even as parents like you. Like, I want my kids to do certain things and it's like I have to, like, maybe this isn't the right time for this, you know, or maybe I'm not pushing hard enough and I need to actually, like, this might hurt my kid for a little bit, but it's actually good for them. And it's like, I don't know, because I think of all the things that I've learned business wise, it's always. It's always the hard things that taught me the most and the things I've persevered through and would be easy just to quit or say, I don't like this.

[44:17] Matt: Right.

[44:18] Michael: But there's also a time to stop and move on, you know?

[44:23] Matt: Yeah.

[44:24] Michael: It's hard to know the difference.

[44:29] Matt: Well, it seems like the lesson that we should be instilling in our children, in our youth in general, is that it's good to learn how to keep your bearings. And keep your calm in the midst of something that you don't like or something you don't want to be doing. I mean, there's a really a real elegance and I think a grace to being able to do things that you don't want to do. And we shouldn't be striving to live a life that is absent of things we don't want to do because. And maybe this is the lesson that you learn. It's like, I'm not really smart enough to know what it is that I want to do. It's like I have to be made to do things to learn what it is that I actually value. If I only did what I wanted to do. I think I would have a very shallow and shallow life full of vanity and hedonism. And the lesson is that that's not a very good life.

[45:40] Michael: Yeah, it's very unfulfilling. I'm curious, like what's. Do you. Can you remember a time when maybe one of the first times that reality sort of crashed in on you or things were not as you thought they were? Besides like, I know with your divorce that was a big time, but it

[45:58] Matt: was a big one.

[45:59] Michael: But can you remember anything before that or childhood or anything like that?

[46:08] Matt: Yeah, there was a time toward the end of my grandparents lives. I think my grandfather had already died and my grandmother was old and needed to be taken care of and she moved in with my, with my family when I was in high school. And this is my dad's side of the family. And on this, at this, up until this point in time in my life, that side of the family was as far as I could tell, very close. Spent a lot of time together. I had a lot of really happy memories that was just full of laughter and, and really good times. And I think it was my senior year for reasons that are very complicated and I still don't fully understand. That whole side of the family fractured really severely.

[46:54] Michael: Oh yeah.

[46:55] Matt: And it was really hard for me to understand because these were people that I took for granted as my family. My ride or die. Like my. They will do anything for me. And all of a sudden they're all at war with each other seemingly overnight. And because my grandmother was living at my parents house, they were sort of ground zero at the center of it. And it felt to me like my parents and myself and my siblings in particular got sort of pushed out of the family. It came at a time in my life where I was transitioning from high school to college. And so it was kind of like I was like, well, I don't really understand what's going on, but I'm leaving town anyway, so I'm moving on. I got a life to live. But it did feel like, okay, reality is not what I thought it was. There's much more at work in the hearts of these people than I understood that there was. The priorities were not what I thought they were. There's other agendas that maybe they weren't necessarily hidden. Maybe they were brewing under the surface and not really articulated, but they came out.

[48:06] Michael: That's interesting because that almost like challenged the macro narrative that we are family. And it basically said conditionally, you know, and that can be very. Because you can have those, like, micro, like, you know, disagreements or clashes, but once it, like, actually affects the macro, like, we're going to not be a part of this anymore.

[48:34] Matt: Yeah, yeah. The other big example, I think, and neither of these examples really compare to the divorce because that really was like, that saturated every moment of my entire history, put everything in question. But I had another relationship that turned out to not be what I thought it was. And that messed me up pretty bad because it's like, I thought we had this kind of relationship, and I thought we had this understanding and this trust, and we had this set of shared principles and values. And it wasn't like that was negated. It wasn't like this person said, hey, actually, I'm not really feeling that way. It was just like, the actions showed that that was the case. And your mind goes, wait, did it change? Or was it always this way? And I was a fool.

[49:29] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[49:30] Matt: And was giving into manipulation and was just being gullible and believing what you told me.

[49:37] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's such a. It's such like a mind.

[49:44] Matt: Yeah.

[49:45] Michael: It's like.

[49:47] Matt: Well, that's the problem with trust, I think, is you need it. And when it gets violated, it is a mind.

[50:02] Michael: Yeah.

[50:03] Matt: I mean, you're always at risk of being gullible. But the solution is not to, you know, sort of like, seek perfect information before trusting or to seek perfect protection within trust. It is to somehow, I think, become resilient enough to say, I can survive the violation and the trust was worth it.

[50:30] Michael: Yeah.

[50:31] Matt: And you showing me that I'm you, you're not who I thought you were, does not change who I am. I mean, I think that's the lesson in one way. You know, even through my divorce, I thought that I didn't know who I was. After divorce, the reality was that I was always myself. I had put my perception of myself in places that could be stripped from me.

[51:03] Michael: It's interesting because, like, you almost have to kind of. You have to do that, in a sense, to have any sort of relationship.

[51:10] Matt: Yeah, right. Well, in a marriage especially. I mean, that's what you do. It's why man and wife become one flesh. So that's kind of an extreme example, but

[51:20] Michael: yeah. Yeah. Such a. I mean, to have any relationship, you have to have that trust. Like. Because I kind of think of people on both sides of the spectrum of this, you know, where you have. I know some people that they almost go in with a bleeding heart. Like, they're just like our heart exposed, you know, and they're Just sort of like, you can cut me, whatever. I'm here for life, you know?

[51:48] Matt: Yeah.

[51:49] Michael: You know, someone's like, whoa. Like, really protective. Like, man, let me see. You know, it's like, what's going on here? And it's like, you know, not very. They're not able to get into relationships because they're not trusting. And I think there's somewhere in between where, you know, it's like, trust is earned, and it must be given, too. And. And you have to learn how to do that. And some people have to learn how to protect themselves more from maybe not trusting as many people as they. As they do. But there's something also admirable about that, though.

[52:30] Matt: There's this. I don't know in what sort of mythology. There's this character named Hanuman who I believe is like a. He's kind of a God or. But he's, like, in the form of, like, an ape or a monkey. And he's a great warrior. But he also has this special skill, which is that in times of peace, he can open his rib cage to expose his heart. And the. The idea is that in times of peace, that vulnerability is very powerful. It affects people very powerfully. I mean, the person who comes into the relationship with a bleeding heart, that can be very powerful. But I think the lesson of Hanuman is that you have to know when to close it up and pick your sword back up and go to battle. You don't want to be naive. Vulnerability isn't naive. It's only naive when it refuses to stop being vulnerable when it needs to. There are times of war. It's like we want to brush shoulders with the other tribes so that we can progress and learn who we are. But we also need to be wise enough, you know, and share. Share with each other. We also need to be wise enough to know when war is at hand. And it's time to stop our vulnerability and pick up our defenses and our offenses. And I learned that story from my therapist when I was going through my divorce, because he basically said, you're refusing to close your heart. Close. Close your chest cavity to protect your heart, yourself. And you're refusing to pick up your sword and fight. Fight for your kids. And I know you don't want to because it's anathema to you to fight your wife, but you have to do it

[54:19] Michael: well. God,

[54:21] Matt: it was a hard lesson.

[54:23] Michael: That's rough.

[54:23] Matt: Yeah.

[54:28] Michael: Yeah. I mean, I. I think of, like, all these other, smaller examples, too. It's like, you know, like Medici too. Like We. We kind of give people too many chances sometimes. It's like. It's like part of it is. It's like, no, this is a place you can learn and grow and. And, you know, and then there's. But you know what, at the same time, for the health of the company and for the shop or whatever it might be, is like, we need to let you go.

[54:51] Matt: Yeah.

[54:52] Michael: And. And that's actually. That's actually health. Healthy and good to be able to let something go. And. But that's also really helpful. Healthy and good to allow people to grow and to make mistakes. And, you know, it's just. It's hard to know. It's like, when does it. You have your chest. It's hard to know.

[55:11] Matt: And really, you don't ever know. Yeah. I mean, I think you always have to take the risk of saying, I think that this is the time. I think this is the right thing, whether it's leaving a romantic relationship or firing an employee or walking away from an opportunity. You know, hopefully we gain in wisdom over time and we get better at knowing what the right thing is. But I think so often we don't know what the right thing is. We have to take the risk of being wrong, but it's better to act and be wrong than to wait to be right.

[55:49] Michael: Yeah, it totally reminds me, even just having the humility to. To be able to acknowledge, like, oh, shoot, I was wrong. Yeah. There's so many areas in this.

[56:07] Matt: Well, that's the hard. That's the hard part at the end of it. Right. Is acknowledging when you're wrong. Because we don't want to do that either. No, we want to say, well, it would have been different if this other person had done this other thing or if the market had been this other way, or, you know, if the facts had been different, I would have been right.

[56:23] Michael: Totally. Yeah. We definitely want to justify ourselves. I mean, I definitely see that as far as, like, wanting to paint ourselves in the best possible light and not seeing that we're capable of causing harm, you know, to others by our actions or by judging in a way that's, you know, I think of, like, where, you know, Jesus talks about. For. In the same way you judge others, you'll be judged. And it's like, it's not that you shouldn't judge other people, but in the way that you judge them, you will be judged. And if you don't make the judgments around you in a way that. Because, you know, God is both the judge and the merciful, you know. Yeah. The grace giver. And so, you know, you. If you're not careful and do it with humility, it's like, you know, you just do it, you know, carte blanc. It's like there's a part that you start to reap that, I guess. Reap that yourself. Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately. Just like, I don't know if I can get into that right now. It's, It's. It's like how, like, kind of going back to the reality thing is, like, how I see people and. And coming to terms where I don't see people the way that I should. And it's like, I really want to. I really want to learn how to do that better, you know, whether it's with my wife or my kids or like, Hazel, like, you know, I was talking about that situation with the basketball thing, you know, it's like. It's like I'm making a judgment by a. By like, encountering that with her. But is my judgment correct? You know, like, for a more crude way of saying, it's like, hey, buck up. Get in there and do it. You know, but maybe is. Or is. Or is this more of a time to show compassion and be like, hey, you know what? Maybe this is the right thing for you. Let's just not do this. And. And that's. It's hard to know the difference. And. But still, as a parent, you have to make judgments on, like, what's best for your kids, like when to push, when to relent. And you don't always get that. Get that. Right.

[58:56] Matt: Yeah. It seems to me like there's so many instances in life, especially as I get older, which seems so such the inverse of what I would have expected or hoped I would expect that as I get older, I get wiser and I know the right answer more often. And it seems like, no. As I get older, I know that there's so much more that I don't know, and I have so much less control than I ever thought. And so often I don't know the right answer to something, you know, whether it's in parenting or relationship or in just my own, you know, life, pursuits, hobbies, creative endeavors, career. You know, you find yourself at some crossroads with what to do, whether it's whether to, you know, force your child into some extracurricular activity or some decision in your career. It's like, I don't know. I just have to. I have to really search my heart and say, what do I want to do? And is that desire Rooted in something good? Or is it rooted in something that seems. That's more like avoidance, Like, I want less trouble for myself. And if it's that, if it's the latter, then I've really got to go back to the drawing board. If it's the former, if it does seem to be really rooted in something good, then I have to say, okay, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to choose in this way, and I'm going to be willing to be wrong to say I thought what I was doing was good, but it turns out that it was wrong.

[60:37] Michael: Yeah, I liked how you phrased that. Maybe more detail on that. Just the whole idea of, like, I have to have to make a decision that seems right to me. And I kind of hear that language. It's not maybe in the way that you say it, but it's sort of like. It's very, like, person centric. But I liked how you said that. It's like that actually might not be good. And there's a lot of, like, you know. Well,

[61:11] Matt: the purposes of man's heart are

[61:14] Michael: deep

[61:15] Matt: waters, but a man of wisdom draws them out. I mean, we imagine that we know what it is that we want. As if asking somebody what they want about, you know, their children or their career is like asking them whether or not they want steak or chicken. You know, it isn't that way.

[61:33] Michael: Yeah.

[61:34] Matt: The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters. Even when we think we know what we want, we don't know what it's motivated by. Often and often we don't know what it's motivated by because we don't want to know what it's motivated by because we don't want to admit that we're selfish. We don't want to admit that we're

[61:54] Michael: avoidant.

[61:55] Matt: Avoidant. That we're just fucking tired of everyone. And we just want everyone to go away. You know, we don't want to admit those things because we don't like that picture. You know, we don't want to be that man. And so instead of effacing that, we say, well, you know, we layer over all of those insufficiencies, those things we don't like with wants that we do like, you know, I want the best for my kids. Is that really what you want? Or is. Or do you want to be done being a dad?

[62:27] Michael: Yeah.

[62:28] Matt: Is that what you really want?

[62:29] Michael: You want to be done with the struggle of. Being done

[62:31] Matt: with the struggle? Yeah. With the constant fights and the drivings, driving around and the, you know, all this, that and the other, you know, the. It's 10pm I have this school project I totally forgot about that's due at 7 in the morning. Yeah. I think we have to really face that in ourselves and then say, well, what is it that I really want to do here? And try to get to the bottom of that in yourself and to work from that place and. God, that's hard.

[63:06] Michael: Yeah,

[63:06] Matt: that's really hard.

[63:09] Michael: You know, even more so when you start kind of get the hedonistic aspect of it, like what brings me pleasure, you know, and just like. Like sleeping around and. Yeah. And stuff like that. It's like, well, okay, but what is that? What is that really? Is it serving you into the future? It's like, it's like, you know, so hard to. For me to think about that for my kids as far as, like, how to explain that. It's like, what is best is you find somebody and you marry them and you have sex with that one person. You know, it's like, that is really what is best. Well, I feel like you can't argue with that.

[63:48] Matt: It's a great example because I've never. I've never really been in the sort of single person sleeping around culture, but everyone I know who has sort of played that game comes to the end of it.

[64:03] Michael: Totally.

[64:03] Matt: And they're completely tired of it. It's completely empty. So ask any given person, hey, do you like sex? Would you like to have sex? It's like, yeah.

[64:13] Michael: Yeah,

[64:14] Matt: right,

[64:14] Michael: Totally.

[64:16] Matt: So go. Great. Go have as much sex as possible. Fantastic. Let's get going. And that turns out to be empty. No one finds that satisfying in the end. I mean, even Dan Bilzerian.

[64:31] Michael: I don't even know who that is.

[64:32] Matt: He's this. You should look him up. He's a fascinating character. He's one of these guys, he got rich playing poker and he's a single guy. He's super jacked. And he has all these models around him all the time and used to always talk about how many women he felt all the time and, you know, would dog on monogamy and say, like, it's so stupid. Like, I can have as much as I want. Like, why would you just choose one? That's ridiculous. Even this dude came to the end. And recently, somewhat recently, I saw him posting. He's like, no, that ain't it. It's empty.

[65:08] Michael: Yeah,

[65:09] Matt: I want one woman. Because he realized that the depth is there in one woman and it's not there in many. And, well, anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we really don't know what we want. Sometimes we have to be told what we want. I mean, you even see it in the marriage vows. So some two people think they want to get married. And the marriage vows are designed to infantilize them to say, you have no idea what you're doing or what you're talking about. Repeat after me,

[65:39] Michael: so good

[65:40] Matt: in front of all of these people, you have no idea what you're signing up for. We have to be told what is good. We have to be told what it is that we really want in order to find that we really want it. And this is the sort of paradox of revelation. I mean, no man can come to God. God must reveal himself to man. We can have some sense that what we want is God, but God has to reveal him to us. And I think our own desires, even down to, you know, the example I used about you want the chicken or the steak? You know, Well, I wouldn't have known unless I had already had both. And if you're asking me what my favorite food is, you know, well, maybe I thought it was steak until I learned that veal was a thing, you know, or something like that. Is

[66:35] Michael: this true?

[66:35] Matt: No. Okay. I'm just working with examples.

[66:38] Michael: You're blowing my mind.

[66:41] Matt: I don't know. I guess the point is like back to your point about relationship. Reality is relational, which means that it has to be experienced to be known. And whoever it is that we are and whatever it is that we think that we want is a product of that relationship. It comes through the relationship. It's not in a sense, pre existing, it's revealed. It's it, it unfolds.

[67:08] Michael: Well, I think that. Which

[67:09] Matt: is why a monogamous relationship is so powerful, because you allow that to take place.

[67:14] Michael: Yeah.

[67:14] Matt: You don't remove yourself from it.

[67:17] Michael: Which like that kind of goes back to the positive aspects of tribalism, is like, like, no, this is a positive thing that will help you into the future. It's like, well, I want to have sex with as many people as I want to. It's like, okay, well that's not going to be good for you. You know, it's like, well, I think it will be. And it's like, yeah. And so like how that was built into cultures was that sort of like, you know, chaperones and, you know, you know, waiting till you get married and that kind of stuff is because there's, there's actually a net benefit by doing that. But doesn't seem very beneficial.

[67:55] Matt: And also, I heard. I think Bret and Heather on the Dark Horse podcast were talking about this. They were like, you know, you. You take for granted that you live in a monogamous culture. And, like, you might say, well, I want to live in a polyamorous culture where anyone can have sex with whoever they want to have sex with. And they're like, yeah, think twice before you think that. Because, you know, in that culture, are you going to be Genghis Khan who has sex with everyone, or are you going to be all the other men who have sex with no one?

[68:22] Michael: Yeah,

[68:22] Matt: because that's what. That's where that goes. So this whole idea of, like, enforced monogamy is actually doing everyone quite a bit of good, because if you. If you leave, if you make sexual access, not a cultural thing, but a militarized thing, basically. Like, whoever can take the women gets the women. That's Genghis Khan.

[68:51] Michael: Yeah. Which protects, you know, women as it protects men too.

[68:56] Matt: I just looked it up. It's estimated that he had probably 200,000 children. Sorry, 2,000, not 200. I was like, 2,000 children,

[69:05] Michael: so do math there. And I was like, you saved me. Yeah, it did. Crazy, like, how much cultural things are built in. It goes back to our whole Chesterton fence that we always bring up is that are embedded in culture that is actually there to help us and.

[69:27] Matt: But it looks like an impediment.

[69:28] Michael: It looks like an impediment. Yeah, because there are a lot of things in culture that need to be rebelled against and changed and challenged, and I think there's. There's that healthy part of it too. And. But there's some things that are actually embedded in culture that are net positive and good. So. Yeah, I don't know where. How we got on the sex part, but. Yeah.

[70:04] Matt: Well, I mean, it all feels like a great mystery that's exciting to work at. You know, it doesn't feel that way on a random Tuesday when I wake up and I think, ugh, gotta do this life thing again, you know? But I feel like it's like when you really look at it, what's going on with you and your heart and your relationships and reality and truth and how unexpected Joy seems to be. C.S. Lewis's memoir is called Surprised by Joy. Joy is always some. It's always a surprise. That's how we experience it. It's like, oh, my God, I didn't know that was there. You know, it's like even when you, in a sense, like, you knew it was There, Like, I had this. It was a couple of summers ago. Do you remember? You and I rented a ski boat, speedboat, wake surfboat. We took the kids out on it, and Estella, my middle, upper middle daughter, was on the wakeboard, and she got it. She got up and she was doing it, and she was celebrating, and I was in the back of the boat cheering her on. And I was just like, this is the best moment of my life, you know, and it isn't like Stella's not around me all the time or that we didn't plan that day. You know, like, we. We planned that in advance and went on purpose and did the thing. But I was surprised by how much joy I felt watching my daughter succeed at that. I mean, joy is always a surprise. And it's. I think it's always there for us if we look for it. I think so often we get, what. What is it? Just complacent and discouraged, and we stop looking for it.

[72:12] Michael: No, that's understandable. I mean, even today I was talking to my CEO and we were discussing, like, very practical items, and then we kind of got off in the theoretical and ideas, and it's like all of sudden, I felt the freedom again because it's like, that's the realm of possibilities. And sometimes, like, you get into, like, the things that are confining. You know, it's like. Like money is a confining thing. It's like you either have enough money to do this certain thing, or you don't have enough money to do certain thing. Like, you know, there's no. There's no way around it, you know, and then. And then you. You start to think it's like, okay, what is possible? I

[72:51] Matt: mean, unless you just open a daycare in Minnesota.

[72:54] Michael: That's true. Way to bring it around. That's what it is. Medici daycare centers with no kids, just coffee shops. Oh, maybe I can do that.

[73:11] Matt: Like,

[73:12] Michael: it's a daycare center for, you know, upper 20 to 30 year olds who

[73:18] Matt: have failed to launch and still need some parenting.

[73:21] Michael: Totally.

[73:21] Matt: And coffee.

[73:23] Michael: Nice. All right, so Medici's gonna be doing really well now. But I love. I really do love thinking and challenging my idea of, like, what is possible. I think that's. Sometimes I get too. Like, the walls get too closed in, and I. I don't think, like, whether it's with my kids or with my wife or with my business or, you know, whatever else, it's like. It's like I need those things that kind of breathe fresh air into them. You Know.

[73:58] Matt: Yeah.

[73:58] Michael: Like, I don't see things as they actually are, and I need to, like, open myself up to that.

[74:03] Matt: Well, sometimes I think we set up our own Chesterton fences.

[74:07] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[74:08] Matt: You know what I mean? Like, we box ourselves in. We say things like, I don't have money to do that.

[74:14] Michael: Yeah.

[74:15] Matt: And we put up that fence up there and we say, well, we can't go past that fence. It's like, wait, did somebody else put that up there? Or did you put it up and then forget why it was there?

[74:24] Michael: Totally.

[74:25] Matt: And now you're not willing to ask why it was there.

[74:27] Michael: Yeah.

[74:30] Matt: Because maybe it isn't that you don't have enough money. Maybe it's that, well, you're not doing the things that, you know you need to be doing in order to have the money. And it's easier for you to just say, I don't have the money.

[74:43] Michael: Totally. Yeah. That's also there. Yeah, that's. That's a. There's two different directions on that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost easier to say, like, we don't have. We don't have the money to do that. Because it's hard to say if you actually do have the money, that we're not going to do something. And that's something that's always baffled me, that. That idea. But I can definitely identify with that whole, like, putting up fences. You're like, no, there's a fence there. It's like, well, who put the fence? I did. Oh, shit. Maybe that fence doesn't need to be there.

[75:28] Matt: Could you put a gate in it?

[75:29] Michael: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[75:37] Matt: All right. Well, to 2026.

[75:41] Michael: Yeah, totally. Was there anything you want to wrap with or any thoughts that you want to. From 2025 or things you want to look forward to in 2026 or.

[75:51] Matt: I feel like 2026 feels like more of a blank canvas to me of a year than I've had in quite some time.

[76:00] Michael: Okay.

[76:01] Matt: And so I don't know whether to be anxious about that or to look forward to that. You know, a blank canvas is pretty intimidating.

[76:09] Michael: It is.

[76:12] Matt: But maybe it's also a blessing.

[76:15] Michael: So I don't know if, like, you and I, like, sync up on our, you know, cycles or something like that.

[76:21] Matt: Our manipause,

[76:22] Michael: Menopause. Yeah. Because I. I don't. I really don't know what to expect from 2026.

[76:28] Matt: Yeah, I don't either. I thought earlier about asking you, like, for some 2026 predictions, but I don't know. It doesn't feel like a year for predictions.

[76:36] Michael: It almost doesn't. And I don't know if that's good or bad. Like, it's. Like, is it naive not to do. To prepare, you know, and to have predictions that don't come true or, you know.

[76:49] Matt: Well, maybe we'll have to riff on that post podcast and see if we come up with. Okay,

[76:53] Michael: let's do that. Okay, sounds good. All right, well, thank you all for coming out. We love you.

[76:57] Matt: Cheers. Cheers to all you out there.

[76:59] Michael: Yeah.

[76:59] Matt: Love you. Thanks for listening.

[77:01] Michael: Yeah. See you guys.

[77:01] Matt: Bye.