Let Go For Dear Life

[0:20] Matt: All righty.

[0:24] Michael: Tonight we are Craig and more and not Craig and less.

[0:27] Matt: That's true. That's very true.

[0:29] Michael: To the shores.

[0:30] Matt: To the shores. Cheers. I feel like we need to do an honorary simultaneous sip in honor of Scott Adams. Scott

[0:38] Michael: Adams. Yeah, totally.

[0:39] Matt: So second cheers.

[0:40] Michael: Second cheers.

[0:41] Matt: Rest in peace, Scott. It's been really amazing watching just the outpouring of love that people have for that man. You know, it happened, what, like, six months ago when he first announced that he had cancer. And then when he finally passed, just the. Seemed like all of X was in mourning. It was really interesting to see how much he affected people's lives.

[1:06] Michael: Totally. Well, even. I mean, for you. And I just. There was a kind of a voice of reason, you know, that he kind of put out there at a time when there was a lot of craziness.

[1:17] Matt: Yeah. And always with such a calm spirit about it, too. While I think so many other people were so nervous about the ramifications of seeking the truth or telling the truth, he seemed to just, like, not care about the repercussions of that.

[1:38] Michael: Yeah, yeah. I remember when he came out. I don't know, I guess it was maybe. I don't know if it was in the 2016. 2020 for Trump, but I know he did for the. This third term.

[1:51] Matt: No, he was for Trump in 2016.

[1:54] Michael: 2016. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:56] Matt: And apparently he always said he was a liberal, but he spotted Trump early on and got behind him, and I think lost a lot of his friends and family and career opportunities as a result of that.

[2:09] Michael: Yeah, it seemed like he got his Dilbert cartoon got taken out of some different.

[2:14] Matt: I think that got canceled once and for all. It might have been affected by his support for Trump. Then it got canceled once and for all because he said something about this poll that said that over half of black Americans weren't okay with white people, something like that. And his commentary on it was, if that's the case, that's a really bad situation. And I don't know what else to tell you, but just to avoid each other. And that got taken as a racist comment. I think the exact words were, you know, white people should probably just stay away from black people if that's the state of things.

[2:51] Michael: Wow.

[2:52] Matt: And I think over a thousand papers dropped Dilbert over that. And it's been really sad that, like, Washington, New York Times, Washington Post, they all had headlines about Scott dying, and they all called him a disgraced cartoonist. Who

[3:08] Michael: really.

[3:09] Matt: Whose racism got his. Got him canceled.

[3:12] Michael: Wow.

[3:13] Matt: Yeah. As if that has anything to do with his legacy

[3:17] Michael: or

[3:18] Matt: who he was or why he mattered to people, why he was a name that people knew.

[3:23] Michael: Talk about just not doing your research, you know, I mean, that's.

[3:26] Matt: I don't think that's it. I think they did do their research. He's just a Persona non grata, and so you have to say bad things about him. Somebody posted one of those headlines next to the headline that the same paper wrote about O.J. simpson dying. And the headline about O.J. simpson dying was just like, you know,

[3:45] Michael: icon,

[3:46] Matt: ex NFL icon passes away. And this guy know. Tweets like, so you can murder your wife, and that gets no mention in your obituary. But you say something that was construed as racism. Racist. Which I don't even think it was racist. It was just taking, like a. Taking a logical. Like taking something to its logical conclusion. I don't think he was. I don't think Scott Adams was even really endorsing that. He was just trying to show you, like, this is the way things are. And that shows up in the headline for his obituary. It's really a shame.

[4:22] Michael: So is it just. It's definitely very telling.

[4:27] Matt: It's also, like, really interesting and impressive that he continued his Coffee with Scott Adams show, which is a daily show, up until, like, the day before he died.

[4:38] Michael: Yeah,

[4:39] Matt: he was still doing it.

[4:41] Michael: Yeah. I think he told his wife, like, yeah, I think I'm dying tomorrow.

[4:44] Matt: Yeah. Well, that was another really interesting thing, is that it was his ex wife, actually.

[4:50] Michael: Oh, his ex wife was the one that gave the.

[4:52] Matt: Gave the announcement.

[4:53] Michael: Really? Okay. I didn't know

[4:54] Matt: that. Shelley. And apparently her and her daughter. So my understanding is that he married her, and she had kids from a previous relationship, and he sort of became a father to these kids, and then when they got divorced, he said it was very amicable. But when he was, you know, basically in hospice care at the end of his life the last week or so, from what I understand, his ex wife, Shelley, and her daughter were there taking care of him. And I just thought, that's really something.

[5:22] Michael: Yeah.

[5:23] Matt: You know, to have handled your relationship such that even though your marriage didn't make it, that person is still there to help you, to care for you.

[5:33] Michael: Yeah.

[5:33] Matt: And wants. And clearly wants to be.

[5:35] Michael: Yeah. She

[5:37] Matt: was clearly affected by his death, you know, and she was crying.

[5:41] Michael: Mm.

[5:41] Matt: So I think we could all aspire to be a little bit more like Scott Adams in many ways.

[5:48] Michael: Well, it makes me want to read his books. I don't know anything about those.

[5:51] Matt: I read how to lose at almost everything and still win big. And it's interesting. And he has a very. His writing style is a lot like he talks or a lot like he speaks. He speaks very simply. And so it reads kind of like a self help book. It reads as though it's not very deep, but I got some good things out of it.

[6:15] Michael: Okay.

[6:16] Matt: And I know a lot of people were really affected by that. And how to reframe your brain is another one a lot of people liked.

[6:24] Michael: Yeah, maybe that's a good audible one to just run through.

[6:27] Matt: Yeah. Maybe we could talk briefly about this. I know you. We've got a topic we want to get into, but did you read the note that they put out? Sort of like the last words from Scott Adams? He talks about accepting Christ.

[6:44] Michael: Yeah.

[6:44] Matt: And I'm seeing a lot of people kind of give some backlash to that because Scott basically said, you know, a lot of my friends have been wanting me to accept Christ and I've basically done the cost risk analysis and I think that that's probably the logical thing to do. And so he says, I accept Christ as my Lord and savior. And I heard a lot of people pushing back on that, saying, well, that's not really what accepting Christ is. It's not a risk analysis. That's not what belief is. And I wondered if you had any thoughts on that. I kind of felt a bit like that myself, but not strongly enough to where I would have ever said anything about it.

[7:34] Michael: Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's just like how your mind thinks about things. To me, that makes a lot of sense. There's one thing I've always come back to is I just can't get rid of Jesus. I keep trying, but it keeps kind of coming back into the picture. And so. But also understand the other side of there's another. There's a relational side that you might not talk about it in those words, but I'm not bothered by those words, you know?

[8:10] Matt: Yeah,

[8:11] Michael: it's like what his private life was is one thing, but as far as a public statement is, I'm like, yeah, that's cool.

[8:20] Matt: It's interesting. I. I always really liked Scott, like listening to his clips. I didn't really listen to his podcast all that regularly. If I happen to like be noticed that it came on X Live or whatever, I'd turn it on for a little while.

[8:35] Michael: Or the clips. I'd

[8:36] Matt: watch the clips. Yeah. But there's something that I always found in his thinking, which was that. So G.K. chesterton and C.S. lewis are two of my favorite authors and thinkers, really. And I think the thing that interests me about both of their stories is that they were both very serious atheists, and it was their pursuit of atheism that ultimately led them to Christendom. And I think that, like, I've always been fascinated by that. Like, if you. If you push philosophy far enough, you end up at God. If you push your thinking far enough on almost any issue, you end up at God

[9:13] Michael: totally.

[9:13] Matt: And it's mostly people who are unwilling to push it because they sense that it's leading outside of their sort of hermetically sealed bubble. You know, we use Sam. I use Sam Harris as a example of this all the time. He's so frustrating because he has these Sam Harris fences to reference. Last week, talking about Chesterton fences that he put up himself and he won't cross, even though he can see that there's something on the other side of it.

[9:42] Michael: Yeah.

[9:43] Matt: And I always sensed a bit of that in Scott Adams, that his. His thinking came up against some rails that he wasn't willing to push past. And I wonder if at the end of his life, he. He got there. I hope he did. Yeah. I mean, I think even, you know, whether you disagree or agree with the way that he did it, I think to recognize Christ at the end of his life is pushing past the Scott Adams fences in his mind. And I'm glad to see it.

[10:25] Michael: Well, it just makes sense to me because, like, I would say, like. Like I admire my wife's faith and her ease. I feel like that she has that I don't have. And I think there's benefits that she receives because of that, too. And. But also know that, you know, I question. I question kind of almost everything, you know, so it's like. It's like that's what I. That's why that sort of language makes sense to me. It's like that sort of like I can't get rid of them. It's because every time I push things farther and farther, it's like I always end up at the same place. And then I question, did I actually push it far enough? And. But each time I do that, I feel like I learn something new, and my relationship with God deepens because of it. But it's like, I don't know. I mean, that idea of, you know, of the one thing I would say at the end of my life, that's what he said, you know, like, he could have Said a lot of different things, but he said, like, hey, it was important enough for him to mention it.

[11:41] Matt: Yeah.

[11:42] Michael: So that says. Well

[11:43] Matt: up in the very top of his final statements.

[11:46] Michael: Yeah, the first thing.

[11:46] Matt: Yeah.

[11:47] Michael: So, you know, that. That was. That's not something that was. Light is important. Yeah. So it's like, I think people can be critical because I've just kind of like always being around different denominations of Christianity and. And like, what people believe it to mean to be saved and. And I find it somewhat exhausting sometimes. However, I don't think. I don't think each one of them are wrong. It's just sort of exhausting.

[12:17] Matt: Yeah.

[12:17] Michael: You know, like, well, you need to do these things or this thing, or it's like, wait a minute. Is it by grace that you've been saved?

[12:25] Matt: Yeah.

[12:25] Michael: Not through words, but also like, yeah, you demonstrate your. Your faith by what you do. And now I get that too. And.

[12:32] Matt: Yeah.

[12:33] Michael: You know, and it's just interesting. Again, I think some people are just uncomfortable with the. The paradox of all of that. And. And it's. It's like, how can anybody really know? I think that's. That's part of, like, you know, the fruit is kind of what Jesus talks about, you know, my disciples by their fruit. And so it's like, you know, and that's the other thing I've always played around with this question too, is like, if. If someone. If you lived on an island, never heard of Jesus, like, you know, would they be saved? That's like the whole, like, you know, how many pins, angels on a pen type thing. There's a Thomas Aquinas thing. And it's just sort of like, I think there's something in us that draws us to God. And if we're honest, you might not know exactly what it is. But I think ultimately, for me, anyways, that's the part I keep trying to kill is Jesus, but I keep coming back to is that very thing. And I think that even if you don't understand what that is, but if you're moving in that direction, I feel like that is. That's what's. That's the essence of Christianity, the essence of what Christ did.

[13:45] Matt: Isn't it Paul that says that basically all men know God through creation, Something like that, by what has been created.

[13:53] Michael: Yeah. Man is without excuse because God is

[13:56] Matt: not hidden from men. Yeah. Which that's a lot to wrestle with, you know, because that sounds and seems contradictory to some other things, like, what's the word? Evangelism, first and foremost, but it feels True to me, I think it goes back to my example of C.S. lewis and G.K. chesterton. If you're serious enough about what you think, you find God. If you're not serious enough about what you think, if you don't want to look at yourself, you don't want to look at your own thoughts, you don't want to face beauty or face suffering. You want to turn away. I mean, you're ultimately turning away from God. And I think, you know, in a sense, that you're doing that. You know that there's a great gravity to not doing what you should do, even if you don't. Never heard of Jesus or God. You. You have this. I think we all have this innate sense that it's profoundly important that we discover who we are and that we seek to figure out our purpose and to fulfill our dreams in some sense. And we also know that it's profoundly dangerous to avoid doing that, to avoid the things that forthrightly call us. You know, like, it could be, you know, dreams or talents. It could be career opportunities. It could be familial opportunities. We turn away from those things, and I think we have this sense that we're doing profound damage, but we don't really want to look at it.

[15:29] Michael: Yeah,

[15:29] Matt: but if you look at the profundity of that and you seek that, I think you do end up seeing the face of God in. In some way.

[15:40] Michael: Yeah, it makes sense. Or at least it makes sense to me. Just like, you know, I. You know, I've kind of run the gamut on a few different areas and, you know, kind of looking at the world through a materialistic, biological perspective, and. And I feel like you can do that and live that way, but I feel like there's all this language that people use. I hear them maneuvering around the idea of God, but trying to incorporate God into the thing itself. I mean, you see this with Sam Harris, too, with a sort of meditation and observing yourself from outside of yourself. And it's like, well, wait, I thought everything was deterministic and you had no choices. And it's like, but he keeps trying to fit these things into the thing. Or Eric Weinstein talks, or Brett talks about useful fictions.

[16:36] Matt: He says it's not true literally, but it's true metaphorically.

[16:43] Michael: I think we just have to look at those things really seriously. It's like, well, what is it about that that is true? Like, it. If it's metaphorically true but not literally true, it's like, well, something. The world works better if you. If You. If you move in this direction and. But you have to be honest with yourself. You're just. I feel like you're intellectually dishonest with yourself. If you move in that direction, you're just basically like, oh, I'm actually fooling myself so I can live a better life, rather than the acceptance of it is like, no, there's actually something there. I might not understand it, but there is a there there.

[17:21] Matt: Well, and my argument with that would be, I don't think that metaphors are fooling people. I think metaphor itself is so deeply baked into what it means to be alive, you can't dispense with it. It's not as if everything can be literally true. I mean, Iain McGilchrist makes this point in the Master and His Emissary that even language itself, all words are metaphorical for something that you can experience with your own senses. Otherwise you would have no way to understand what a word meant. It has to be something that you. Has to be metaphorical of something you can experience. And I think that to the extent that religion is metaphorical, well, I don't think that it can be any other way.

[18:10] Michael: Totally.

[18:11] Matt: How do you talk about. Has to always be metaphorical towards your own experience. And what could. What could we possibly say about God that would not be metaphorical?

[18:24] Michael: True. Or the world in general, or.

[18:26] Matt: Yeah,

[18:26] Michael: yeah.

[18:27] Matt: Well, I mean, maybe it's easier with the world in general because you can't really argue with, like, everyone knows what it means to be hungry. You know, that's. There's something like. There's like a base reality to that. The medical metaphorical words come when you start using words like famished, you know, or I ate that book. You know, if you read a book, you say, I ate it, when it's just like, what does that mean that's metaphorical of the experience of being famished and then being filled and to consume, to not just read intellectually, but to digest, to bring inside of your body. And I think that kind of language is necessary when talking about something like God, because how can you say what the core reality of God is? I mean, God is a layer outside of our own comprehension and outside of our own experience. So we can only talk about God metaphorically. I mean, and I think that you can sort of sense this too, when you read the Bible. I mean, God talks about himself metaphorically. You know, ask God who he is and what does he say? I am. That I am. Something like that. What the fuck does that mean? You know, I think we Talked about this a number of weeks ago, but it's like, how did I say it? God is the only self justifying concept. So anyway.

[20:01] Michael: Well, I think I agree with you. I. I'm. I'm kind of more in line, kind of. The point I was making was if there is no there, there, like, there actually is something. Like, there's a sort of, like, the way that Brett uses it. It's more of, like, metaphorical, as in pretend. Like, it's helpful fiction. It's. It's good to pretend. Like, and I think that's the part that if you're intellectually honest, you have to say, like, well, why am I fooling myself? Even though it's better to live this way and fooling myself that these things are true rather than accepting. It's like, oh, well, maybe there is something true here.

[20:43] Matt: Yeah, I don't know. I understand what that phrase, fooling yourself is doing there when you analyze what Brett says, but I don't think that's the right way to think about it. And I think this kind of brings us to that clip that you had sent me of that. That woman on Instagram talking about how your thoughts have a massive effect on your body. Your. The scripts, in this case, kind of into Chase Hughes territory. It's like the scripts you have running in your brain tend to root themselves in what we might consider reality, which is like, the physical state of my body here. And if you change the way that you think, you actually change your body. And that's not fooling yourself, that's choosing to pick up a different narrative. Like, she makes the point, like, if I'm just all day, every day just thinking about how sick I am and how shitty I am and how I'm not good at my job and I'm not a good dad and I suck at everything. It's like I'm going to be physically ill.

[21:50] Michael: You start to manifest it.

[21:52] Matt: You start well. And she tries to make the point that it's not manifesting. This is just the way things work. It's not that you're manifesting it, it's that you are bringing it into reality. Which I'm not sure that there's much of a difference between those two things, but, you know. And she points out that in the New Testament, I think it's. Paul talks about the renewing of your mind. He doesn't say the renewing of your body. It says the renewing of your mind. In us sort of postmodern folk, I think we tend to have this default Assumption that there's two things going on. The mind is, like, hermetically sealed from the body, and I can have whatever scripts going on up there I want, and it has nothing to do with my physical body. And that's just not true. And so I think to change your thoughts is not to fool yourself. It's not like, okay, instead of, like, I feel sick, instead of thinking about seeing being sick, I'm going to think about being well, to fool my body into getting well. I don't think that's the case. I think that it's. That if you choose to renew your mind, if every time. I mean, this is kind of what meditation is in a certain sense. It's like every time that that thought comes in, you know, maybe it's. It's sort of like, easiest to think about addictions with intrusive thoughts, you know, trying to quit smoking so you stop smoking, and then all you can think about is smoking, right? And you're like, I've never had a nicotine craving this bad before. Yeah, what's going on? But if every time the thought comes into your mind, you can basically just say, no, I don't allow you in here. I'm going to choose a different one. That's not fooling. That's taking authority. Authority over my mind to say I get to choose, you know, the. The scripts that I allow to play out in my mind.

[23:44] Michael: Well, I. Maybe we're talking about in two different ways here, because, like, I come back to one of my basic axioms. This was like, you know, I have a subjective experience of an objective reality. Like, there is something. There is a there there. And I'm just saying that in the way that Brett talks about it, is that it's helpful to pretend like there is a there there that makes sense. And so it's like, it's helpful. And. And I'm just. I'm. I'm kind of like, if you're. But if you're intellectually honest, you have to say that. That there is not an actual there there. It's. It's just something that's helpful.

[24:23] Matt: You're saying this is what Brett is saying. Well, what does it mean to pretend

[24:30] Michael: to act as if it's true?

[24:32] Matt: How seriously do you act as if it's true?

[24:34] Michael: Well, I think that's. That's the part that I feel like is. Is sort of, in one sense, it's. You receive the benefits of. But intellectually, I mean, I feel like you kind of have to, like, admit that it's like, I don't really believe what I believe, you know, And I think that's the part where. I think that's where the shift happens, is like, no, I believe. I believe this. I don't understand it, but I believe it. Like, there is something. Like, I believe there's an objective reality. Can I explain it? Can I prove it? No, because I don't. If all I know is if I don't believe in objective reality, then there's. Everything is. There's nothing. There's no meaning, actual meaning. It's like. It's just subjective all across the board.

[25:28] Matt: And you're differentiating that from what Brett is saying by saying, well, differentiate that for me.

[25:37] Michael: Well, I'm just saying, like, I think Brett's more talking about, you know, the. The useful fiction of God is helpful, but there. It's not actually. It's not objectively true.

[25:54] Matt: How can something that's helpful not be objectively true?

[25:58] Michael: Well, that's exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, that's why I think it's intellectually dishonest. That's the problem I have with what he says, because I come to that same. I understand how he comes to that conclusion, but I feel I can't say the same thing because it would be intellectually dishonest. You know, does that make sense? Like, even with Scott, I was like, hey, when it all comes down to it, it's like, this seems like the best thing, you know, it's like I'm gonna say in my life. It's like this. I've kind of been led to this. This part right here. It's like, because I think even Paul says. I was like, if this isn't true, then we're the biggest fools of all. And I think that's something to recognize, is that, you know, and it's okay to have doubts or misgivings about that. It's just like. I don't know. I think that's why I kind of. I kind of liked how he said it. It seemed very true to him and his experience. Are we doing Kraken or Bulleit?

[27:01] Matt: You can do either one. I brought them both to the table side. Look out. Yeah, well, so maybe here's one reason why people had issues with what Scott said about Jesus. Is that the way he put it is if it's not true, it cost me nothing. If it is true, I wake up in heaven.

[27:30] Michael: Yeah.

[27:30] Matt: And I don't think that's true. I don't think that proclaiming something to be true, that turns out not to be true is without cost, because you will hollow yourself out if you take every bet that you perceive to have no cost. The words we speak matter. They matter to our souls very, very deeply, I think. And to just sort of go around, maybe a good analog would be the sort of Eastern Indian idea of arranged marriage as compared to the more Western idea of, what is it called, enforced monogamy. So in both cases you have monogamous relationships. In one case those are initiated by the will of the two people. In, in the other case, those are initiated by the will of the families. And my understanding is there's not a really meaningful difference in the success rate of those two arrangements. It might even be that the success rate of the arranged marriages is higher.

[28:50] Michael: That's my understanding. Yeah.

[28:52] Matt: And so how do you understand that as a Western person, when we imagine that marriage is about love? And I think this is the key distinction is like, I don't think anybody under the traditional arranged marriage system is under the delusion that a marriage is about love. I think if you don't have love, the marriage is really going to suffer. But the marriage is about family, and family is about more than you. It's about more than you and your partner. It's about your children and it's about your elders. It's about the, the whole family unit that is growing. And so you get married to support that. But I think in the west, we sort of imagine, well, you know, if you just choose to love that person, you will eventually feel that love that we generally think predicates the marriage arrangement. So I'm just going to say it until it becomes true. And you could say that similarly, like, well, I'm going to say it and if it becomes true, that's great. And if I, if it doesn't come true, then there was no cost to me saying it. They were just words. You know, what is the objective reality about love anyway? You know, it's. It isn't like it's objectively there and you stumble upon it. You know, it's something that grows inside of you. And I don't think that love can grow to, in some sense based on a lie. So if you're saying something that you don't believe to be true, well, that's a lie. And so even if it would be true or could be true or is true, if you approach it via deceitful language, I just can't imagine that that's going to go well for you. And so what do you have to do instead? It's like, you have to position yourself toward this and say, if you're in the arranged marriage situation, and I'm talking out of my ass, I have never been in an arranged marriage. I don't live in that culture. But I'm imagining it's sort of similar to saying, well, giving my life to Christ is a bit like that. It's like, there's no cost to saying it if it's not true. And if it is true, then I wake up and have it so great for me. It seems like in both cases, whether it's giving your life to Christ or to entering a marriage, you can't just say the words, especially if they're not true or if you believe that it's possible that they're not true. You have to position yourself to notice when they become true. Something like that. Like, I'm going to. I can imagine if I were in an arranged marriage, I would say, okay, well, I'm going to do everything in my power to make this relationship as good as it can possibly be. And what do you discover when you do that? I think it's like you get married, you discover that, oh, I have this intimate access to this person that's deeper and wider than any other relationship in my life. It's like the most fertile ground, the most fertile soil available to me. What do I plant in that and what will grow from it? But that's an acknowledgment of a. Of an objective reality that I have to feed into rather than, you know, it's like. It's like going back to the scripts in your mind. It's like, if every day I'm just like, this is bullshit. I, you know, she's annoying. I don't like the way she smells. She's kind of ugly. My parents forced this on me. It's like, how's that relationship gonna go?

[32:24] Michael: Yeah.

[32:25] Matt: But if you look at this other person that you're now with and say, I'm going to notice everything about you that I find delightful and everything that I find to be annoying, I'm going to assume that that's my deficit, that I'm overly sensitive to being annoyed. And maybe, like, my third option is like, okay, if this thing that annoys me happens five times, maybe I'll say something about it. And it's like, which of those two positions is more likely to create a marriage in which there is love? So I think that you have a responsibility to take the position that is more likely to give the best outcome. I mean, that's. I Think that's why I say, like, how could it be helpful? How did we say it earlier? It's not. Oh, it's not objectively true. It's metaphorically true. But it's helpful. I was like, how can something that's not objectively true be helpful? I don't think that that's possible. Something that's not true, that's untrue, I don't think can be helpful. So I think when it's. When you are coming to God, you have to say. I mean, it's a position of humility. And it's like, it's not that there's no cost if it's not true. It's like, if it's not true, the cost is everything. You know, if it's true that there's no God, then one, nihilism is your best route. Two, when it's over, it's over. Right. If there's nothing going on bigger than you. And so if it's.

[34:11] Michael: It doesn't really cost you anything. I mean, you know, it's like, you know, if it is true, it costs you. Because, you know, depending on how you interpret Christianity, you know, it's like, you know, by not believing, it would, you know, live in hell, which I'm not sure exactly. I don't know how I think about these things, but. But there's a cost for not believing, and I guess there's a cost for not really giving yourself completely to it, too, and that you don't receive the benefits of that here and now. You know, I think if you give yourself completely to it, then you receive that benefit of belief.

[34:53] Matt: Well, maybe here's another way to think about it. I mean, having been raised in the 80s and 90s in the Bible Belt, you know, we tend to think of hell as something like that's, you know, fire and brimstone and gnashing of teeth and suffering. Or I think about. What was that movie with Robin Williams?

[35:09] Michael: Oh, that was so good. Yeah.

[35:11] Matt: And that scene where he's, like, walking in that dark place and people's. The ground is made of people's faces and he's just had to step on them. You know, we imagine hell to be like a nightmare, but there's other ways to think about it. I think C.S. lewis's depiction of hell and the Great Divorce is really helpful. You know, in. In Grey Town, which is the metaphor in that book for hell, there's no cost or effort for anyone to move. And so if you get annoyed with your neighbor, you just move and he says, napoleon Bonaparte is here. You could go see him. But I don't think you could ever catch up to him. He's moving basically fast. He's moving away faster than anybody can find him. And so I wonder if it's like, well, if you don't acknowledge the truth of God, maybe the cost you pay is that you isolate yourself so much from everything around you that it doesn't feel to you like you're paying any cost at all. And your loneliness, you recede into yourself. You recede away from everyone else to the point where there's no cost to be paid for anything. You make yourself your own. I am that I am, and no one's around to witness it. And that seems to me to be more in line because from that perspective you could say, well, I didn't pay any cost for recognizing God because I've moved so far away from the objective reality that I can't see it anymore. So from my own perceptual state, I am that I am. And I think that that's from my experience in dealing with my own heart. I think that's a version of hell that I could find myself in, the fire and brimstone version of hell. It's hard for me to imagine the currents of my own heart drawing me to that. I mean, I don't think that hell is necessarily a place that we get thrown in against our will. I think that we go there willfully.

[37:42] Michael: I'm about to say that's my understanding. Well,

[37:45] Matt: I mean, even Satan himself, he chose that. He said basically, I am enough. And that put him at odds with God. He didn't say, I prefer fire and brimstone to heaven. He said, I prefer my own will to yours. And that's, you know, the genesis of hell. And I think that it's more likely to me that we end up in hell. And you know, the Bible says the kingdom on. The kingdom of heaven is here and now. I think the kingdom of hell is here and now.

[38:22] Michael: Yeah, that's a good point.

[38:23] Matt: And we, we go there on purpose. We go there to avoid something else. We go there to, to. I mean, don't we all, at some level love nursing our own bitterness and resentment? We feel so justified in it, our anger. We don't want to let those things go. You know, that that's the way the currents of heart, current of hearts flows. And I think we have to willfully say, I'm going to let that go. I'm going to put that down. I see where that's Leading me. That's leading me to a life of where I'm alone. I'm utterly alone, and I don't want to be alone. And so I have to put that down. I have to let that go in order to not be alone. And I think, you know, if you're just thinking about it directionally, like, in one direction, to my left is Greytown. It's dark loneliness, where I pay no cost. You know, it's like maybe I want to be rich enough to. Where I don't have to bother with the cost of anything. Well, how rich would you have to be to spend an eternity alone? And your richness would mean nothing, wouldn't matter to anyone. That's to my left and on my right is moving toward people. It's moving toward relationship. It's moving toward the unknown good that comes as I move toward those things. What is that unknown good? It's like that's what God is. If I move to my right, I start letting go of the things that draw my heart into loneliness, draw my heart to recede. I start letting those things go, and I start picking up whatever the opposite of that is. I saw or read recently that to let go of anxiety is to pick up faith, and to let go of faith is to pick up anxiety. So I let go of anxiety, I pick up faith. I move toward the unknown good that is consciously stepping into heaven and out of hell. So it just seems to me like. We have to move in that. I feel like I have to move in that direction. I don't want to move in the other direction. I can see the costs in the here and now. And this isn't about dying and waking up somewhere else. This is about my everyday life. This is about. It's like, if I proclaim Christ my Lord and Savior, it isn't the case that that could turn out not to be true. It is already true, and I'm acknowledging it because it's outside of me.

[41:17] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of threads to jump on what you're talking about. Yeah. I don't know where to. I don't know where to start. Like, as far as. Like.

[41:36] Matt: Yeah. I feel like I just kind of ranted a little bit.

[41:39] Michael: You did, but it was good. I mean, I feel like you opened up a whole. Like, there's things that I want to kind of address in. This is like the hell on earth. I think that is something that I think we all. Especially if you have at least 30 years under your belt, I feel like you can pretty much have some taste of what that idea means.

[42:06] Matt: Yeah. And if you don't have an answer at hand, it's like. And maybe your point is. Yeah. If you're kind of old enough to. You have enough experiences, I think by the time you're in your 30s, everyone can sit down and write their own personal version of hell. We know what that is. Not metaphorically.

[42:25] Michael: Yeah.

[42:26] Matt: It isn't. I mean, there's a metaphorical aspect to it because everything has to be understood that way. But we know it based upon our own experiences. It's like the way language is metaphorical for experiences. We might use metaphorical. Metaphorical language to describe our own personal hell, but we know it because we've experienced enough. It. Enough of it to be able to talk about it.

[42:47] Michael: Yeah. And what. Hopefully, like, people will also have the opposite experience of having a taste of what you would call heaven.

[42:56] Matt: Yeah.

[42:56] Michael: You know, a relationship that's nurturing, you know, and that's feeding you and propelling you into, you know, what we'd call the good. You know, whether it be like a teacher or a friend or a parent that is pointing you something somewhere. Like, we would salt. We would say up or towards the light. You know, we use all these metaphors again.

[43:22] Matt: Right.

[43:23] Michael: But. But I feel like we experience this in everyday life as either, you know, you're either heading towards hell or heading towards heaven. And. And I think that's. That's the experience that, you know, as we push into it. I think that's kind of where we talk about is, like, you end up at God in that. In that sense.

[43:46] Matt: Yeah.

[43:47] Michael: If you're willing to keep pushing into that. But I feel like there's also. It's like there's a. Sometimes there's a place where we kind of like, okay, that's enough. I think I've got enough.

[43:57] Matt: Yeah. And

[43:57] Michael: you just kind of, like, camp out at, you know, I don't know, level one or whatever. Level one? Yeah. But there's like, you guys,

[44:04] Matt: Camp one.

[44:05] Michael: Yeah. Base Camp One. You're like, this is nice. You know, there's food here. And, you know, I got a good view, started

[44:10] Matt: climbing Everest, and I realized I couldn't breathe and there was no food and there was dead bodies all around me.

[44:16] Michael: But I think there is something about that as you. As you push into that more, it actually gets harder pushing into the heaven aspect of it just because it. There actually is a. There is more of a cost as you push into that as that part of it, because there's something required of you. And you know, if there's something like,

[44:38] Matt: well, you can't take all of yourself with you. It's like your resentment, you can't take that with you. You won't, you won't move forward.

[44:47] Michael: No, it's like almost. It's like impossible.

[44:49] Matt: It's impossible.

[44:50] Michael: Yeah.

[44:51] Matt: So. And that resentment is very much a part of who you. It's a part of you. It's a, it's as much a part of you as your. Is your hand. And to let go of that is to, to give that up, that's a sacrifice.

[45:03] Michael: Yeah,

[45:04] Matt: Sacrifices are costly, but the, but the thing you gain on the other side is so much more valuable.

[45:13] Michael: Yeah. I mean, we all. And then that's a part too, is like we've experienced that heavenly aspect and you know, someone's wronged you and you've actually genuinely forgive somebody. It's like to see a relationship mend. I mean, you're like, whoa, what was that? And you know, like. Or even if someone, like, you know, you forgive somebody and they don't really recreate, kind of like reciprocate, you also see the healing that happens with that too, for yourself. And so I think there's all these sort of like, things that lead towards, towards heaven in a sense that are sort of signpost of like, oh, wait, man, I remember last time when I held onto this resentment for too long and it just, it just buried me. It's like, maybe I should give this up. And I think that's like, what's specifically in Christianity that talks about that.

[46:14] Matt: I saw this clip today on X. This guy was talking about how if you take an orange and you squeeze it, only one thing comes out. It's orange juice. Because that was what's inside the orange. And he basically was saying, you know, you should pay attention to what comes out of you when you're squeezed.

[46:35] Michael: Oh,

[46:37] Matt: if what comes out of you feels to you like poison, you might be full of poison. And you need to address what's inside of you.

[46:44] Michael: Yeah.

[46:45] Matt: And thing I kind of took from it is like, well, then maybe that's why I'm being squeezed, because I have. What's inside of me needs to come out so that something else can go in.

[46:56] Michael: Or at least I need to see it. Like, you're not squeezed sometimes you don't, you

[47:00] Matt: don't see it. Yeah, you can harbor, you can harbor poison in your, in your heart and your soul for a long time.

[47:06] Michael: Well, it's interesting because you kind of see that how, you know, even in friendships and stuff like that or people you. You hang around. It's like a lot of times you want to hang around people that are more like you or not as good as you so that you feel better about yourself. I was like, well, I'm not as bad as those guys. Or like, you know,

[47:24] Matt: or even just so you don't feel so challenged.

[47:27] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's like. Because, like, you know, I mean, even, like, you know, when you and I get together, it's like, you know, I have to. If I'm not honest with my thoughts or ideas, what's going on, it's like. It's like I can't really hide,

[47:47] Matt: spot you,

[47:48] Michael: spot me out, you know, or if my wife, you know, it's like my kids, specifically

[47:53] Matt: kids especially. Try lying to your kids. See how long you can hold that

[47:57] Michael: up. Oh, dude. And it just. It's like you get squeezed and you see, and it's like, it's easy to go run and hide, but you're not. You're not actually solving anything. I think there's a. There's a lot of, you know, things that, you know, Christ specifically talks about is like, sort of like repenting and. And acknowledging those things and not hiding from them and. And what that does and how that releases you. It's not just. It's not. It's. It's kind of metaphorical, but it's. It's. It's object. It objectively releases you from them and you experience that release.

[48:39] Matt: Yeah. I mean, again, if something's objectively helpful, it has to be objectively true.

[48:45] Michael: Yeah. Or approximately true. Because, I mean, I think that's. Again, that's why I kind of like, use some of these. This language is because. I don't know.

[48:55] Matt: Right.

[48:56] Michael: I.

[48:56] Matt: What isn't knowable?

[48:57] Michael: I know enough to believe. I don't know. I just keep walking down this road and it's. It seems to be effective. And I know when I'm off, I'm off. And. And, you know, it's like, if I really want to know, then I feel like that's. Then it's. It's definitely revealed to me. So I think there's. That. That's the part where I get this objective truth is if you really want to know, it will reveal itself to you. It's just, how far are you willing to go?

[49:30] Matt: Well, that's the whole proposition of science, that the universe is intelligible, and if you really want to know something, it will reveal itself to you.

[49:42] Michael: Yeah.

[49:44] Matt: And what does it mean to really want to Know something? Well, it's like you're going to come up with a hypothesis and you're going to test the hypothesis and you're going to allow it to either be falsified or not falsified. And over enough time, and the more creative you get and the more determined you are, the more likely you come to something that you could call a conclusion. I mean, I think that's maybe why I was saying earlier, I was like, what does it mean to pretend that something is true? I mean, in a sense, whatever you pretend is true becomes true. You know, if you pretend to be a shit husband, you're gonna be a shit husband that's going to be objectively true. At some point, it stops being pretend. And I know I've hit on this at some point before because I've spent a lot of time, like middle school and high school football games, watching my daughters cheerlead and watching the young boys play. And it's always occurred to me, or seemed so much to me that all we're all doing is pretending. Everyone in these bleachers, we're in Texas, we take our high school football pretty seriously, as if it's a really big deal. These are children, they are pretending they don't know what they're doing, and we're all cheering them on for doing it. But there's something that happens, especially once you get into high school, especially toward junior senior year. It's like, you see some kid do something, you're like, oh, shit, that's real. He really just did that. He's not pretending anymore. He's acting on instinct. And that instinct was built up through the repetition of pretending over and over and over again. It's the same way you learn to play the guitar or the piano. I think it's the same way. That's the same way you learn to talk. It's like, I've got a one and a half, almost two year old now, and her language is just popping off. You know, she's pretending, she's saying. You watch a child start babbling and then you notice the babbling starts changing and the child is starting to babble in the phonetics of the language that I know. And then all of a sudden, the babbling. She stumbles across an actual word and we go, yes, cat, or whatever. Then she's like, oh, shit,

[52:08] Michael: I got something

[52:09] Matt: that was. I don't know what it is, but I got. I'm just going to keep saying it, you know, and then she keeps saying it, saying, saying, and all of a Sudden, she figures out several words go together. She starts saying those over and over and over again for every context. It doesn't matter.

[52:19] Michael: Yeah.

[52:20] Matt: Like right now, she's saying my turn. She says it about everything she doesn't know. I'm like, no, it's not relevant here. It is relevant here. It actually is your turn, actually. No, this is my turn. I've got to do this one for you. But she's, you know, she's just peppering the. The. The playing field and just seeing what works, seeing what doesn't work. So I just don't think it's possible to pretend like something is true and it not come true. You know, maybe the examples that sort of come into my mind are the. Are the schizophrenic, but they're not actually pretending something is true, that they want to be true. They are. Like, in a. In a version of hell, you know, you. You would. It's not interesting, though. It's like, we don't call people who believe in God schizophrenic, but the person who thinks they're being followed by the FBI when they're really just, like, a homeless guy, we call that person schizophrenic.

[53:42] Michael: Well, it's interesting, and I can get a lot of hot because there's so many variations and variables in this, but there is something that the world doesn't make sense to you, so you're trying to make sense of it, and you create your own reality. That's not true.

[53:59] Matt: Yeah.

[54:00] Michael: And I mean, this is a subject that's really close to me because I got to do. I went down this road, and it's sort of like. And when I look back on it, it's like it was kind of like, I did create that, but at some point, my creation took over. And I think that's true. I think there's also some, like, the reason why I'm really hesitant in this area, because there's some. Sometimes this comes out of, like, really horrible situations where someone's been abused, and they create a reality because their reality is almost so horrible. And so there's just different variables of how people get there. But there is this part, like, you do create. You create this space that is comfortable because you are dictating that. Like, it's easier for me to believe, like, an FBI agent is following me than to not believe that. You know, I mean, that wasn't specific for me. But, I mean, I. To me, I understand, like, that because it's like, it's a. It's a reality that I'm comfortable with, and you become more comfortable with it and. Because to challenge it is almost worse than to just go along with that idea. And I think that's what. But I think that's why I see that in a lot less tamer ways, too, where things that are more socially acceptable, that we pretend are true. It could be everywhere from like, oh, Republicans are all this way and they're racist, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like you're creating this reality that's. It's like, are there racist Republicans? Yeah. Are there racist Democrats? Yeah. It's like. But you're just. You're kind of creating this whole us and them reality that's just not true in that sort of, like, black and white sense.

[55:52] Matt: Kind of reminds me of the story of Frankenstein. You said you're creating a reality that then takes over. So Dr. Frankenstein tries to create life, and what does the life do? Kills him.

[56:06] Michael: Yeah.

[56:08] Matt: You try to create your own reality. Your own reality is going to consume you.

[56:12] Michael: Oh, totally. I mean, you see this right now. I mean, the left and the right dudes. I mean, it is just one example. I mean, you know, even you see a lot of wars over this. And there's something. We've talked about this where. Like in World War II, where on Christmas, I think it was at the Battle of the Bulge, or was it Bastogne, Battle of Bastogne or Battle of the Bulge. I forget what it was, but at Christmas time, they all came out, Germans and Americans and English or whatever. They kind of had a Christmas moment together, and then they went back to their lines and started firing at each other. It's like. But there's a motive. Like, oh, wait a minute. All these people aren't evil. You know.

[56:53] Matt: Did you ever hear some story. I think this was in World War II, where, like, I don't know who it was, but, you know, two enemies were coming on each other to fight. And I guess, like, they. The generals or whatever hadn't given the orders yet, and they didn't know what to do. And so they were just kind of waiting, but they were bored, so they just started playing football with each other. Something like that. I don't know if that's a true story, but

[57:13] Michael: it probably is. I mean, there's so many. I've heard, like, quite a few little different.

[57:16] Matt: Yeah.

[57:18] Michael: But I think there's this.

[57:19] Matt: Well, that seems so different, though. I mean, it feels like the culture in America and maybe just in the west in general, because I think a lot of this is happening in, like, the UK and I don't know where else but UK and America, let's say Canada, for sure. It seems to me that whatever, the tribe that I'm not a part of looks more and more insane to me on a weekly basis. And I don't know if it's true that I look or the part of the tribe that I am a part of looks insane to the other tribe. And I'm using tribe because I don't see it as left. Right. I don't even see it as political primarily, except that everything is political primarily now. But there is a sense in which I watch a clip of Joy Reid, for example, and I just think this is a certifiably insane person that is so detached from reality that nothing she's saying has any validity. But clearly it does, because she's Joy Reid and people listen to her. They take her seriously. So are they listening to this podcast or the people that I listen to who would be like, Megyn Kelly, for example? I really like Megyn Kelly. Does she sound absolutely batshit insane to the people that listen to Joy Reid?

[58:50] Michael: Yeah.

[58:50] Matt: I don't know. And it doesn't seem to me like, you know, if we're bored, waiting for the verdict of, you know, of some social issue that the two of us are going to play football while we're waiting. It's like, I feel very wary of the people that I perceive as insane.

[59:10] Michael: Would you. Did you see RFK's wife talk about her time? And she said she was on. She was on the View, and she said, like, when the cameras are rolling, it was just sort of like, they're, like, really aggressive

[59:25] Matt: and

[59:25] Michael: then

[59:25] Matt: say this.

[59:26] Michael: Yeah. And then when the cameras are off, I'll have to look it up. I'll show you after this. But they were just like, oh, so, so glad you were here. Thank you for coming. We need to have more people on the right. She's like, I'm not on the right. Like, I'm a. I'm a left. I'm a liberal. Yeah. You know, but they're. But they were just kind of going at her. But then after, when the cameras off, it was like they were just completely different.

[59:47] Matt: Yeah.

[59:47] Michael: Scenario. And it's just sort of like. Like, what is. Like, why can't, like. I like to think you and I are the same on here as we are in. In real life.

[59:56] Matt: I guess I have noticed that, like, there are some people in my life that have either like, very vocally unfollowed me on social media or completely Ghosted. If I ever tried to talk to them about something that's anathema to their tribe, they will not engage with me digitally. But if I see these. These people in real life, whether it's like, at the grocery store or restaurant or whatever, they're just, like, completely cordial, just like you would normally expect them to be.

[60:31] Michael: Yeah.

[60:31] Matt: So. So maybe there's some aspect of, like, we really are fostering this. This anti life online, but we're not willing to do it in real life. You know, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm the same way.

[60:47] Michael: I mean, maybe I'm too close to you, but you're pretty consistent.

[60:53] Matt: Well, yeah, and I try to be. I'm also kind of gun shy about saying what I think about polarizing cultural issues because I did lose some relationships that really hurt me personally.

[61:07] Michael: Yeah.

[61:08] Matt: So I don't do much of that anymore. And I didn't do much of it in the first place. I. You know, it's like, I've never been one of those guys, but. But yeah, also, like, consistency matters to me, and there are people I know personally that it doesn't appear that it matters to them.

[61:29] Michael: Yeah.

[61:32] Matt: I wonder what that's about.

[61:35] Michael: Well, I think that's. I think that's kind of like a. A yellow red flag in that sense of like, if what you say in public is not what you believe in private, that's a huge. That's a red flag to me. It's not that you can't be measured. Maybe in your public life, I think that's one thing, but. To be almost a completely different person, public versus private, I think is really. I feel like that kind of like splits your soul. Almost like. Almost like a Voldemort. Like you have. Like you've split your soul into like seven. Seven different.

[62:16] Matt: Yeah, that's the path to hell. I mean, that's the. That's the path to the left.

[62:20] Michael: Yeah. It's like, I want my.

[62:22] Matt: I didn't mean the left politically. I just mean from my prior analogy about the left moving one way or the other. Yeah. It seems like that's the path to Greytown. That's Napoleon Bonaparte moving away. It's like I'm going to project one thing outwardly, but I don't believe that consistently. Consistently. Inwardly.

[62:42] Michael: Yeah.

[62:43] Matt: Or I believe something inwardly, but I'm not willing to say it outwardly because the consequences are too dire.

[62:52] Michael: It's like kind of an interesting scenario kind of came into my head as you were talking about that. It was like, you know, I was trying to, I was trying to make this point or it's kind of flew through my head. It was like, like my kids should be able to go into any scenario that I'm in and say, yeah, that's consistent with my dad.

[63:10] Matt: The way he is at home.

[63:11] Michael: Yeah, the way he's at home. And however that might not be true for a 4 year old or an 8 year old or 16 year old because you might be, there's, there's maybe maturity that kind of like happens, but I'm talking about more of like a 20 year old. My kids, as 20 year olds, I should be, they should be able to go to any sphere and be like, yeah, that's my dad.

[63:37] Matt: Yeah.

[63:38] Michael: And, and in a positive way, not if it's in a negative way. It's sort of like, well, he's not like that at home. Or like, wow, you're a real asshole to those people or something like that. Or like, wow, you're so nice to them. Why are you an asshole to us? You know, like there's those, There shouldn't be that discrepancy, you know.

[64:01] Matt: What do you think it takes to be consistent in your life?

[64:08] Michael: That's a really great question.

[64:14] Matt: I mean, my immediate thought is honesty.

[64:18] Michael: Yeah. Good. Yeah.

[64:19] Matt: You know, you have to be honest with your kids and you have to be honest with your co workers. Well, that's hard. You know, it's not even hard on a deep level. I mean it is on a deep level, but you just see it on such surface levels, you know, you like I found, I have found recently in my life that I'm really struggling with the, the standard transactional, how you doing? What's been going on conversation that you have with people. Like I have one today, somebody that I see, you know, two, three times a year. And we had that standard transactional conversation. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just like, you know, the script that we all have, the socially acceptable script when you see somebody and there's a certain amount of earnestness in it, but I have been struggling with how honest to be, you know, because often we don't really want full honesty. You know, we want to get on with our days really. And so, but we want to try to have some kind of relationship, you know. And what does it mean to be honest with your kids? It's hard because it really, especially when they're younger, it wouldn't be appropriate to tell them what you really feel about some things. But I don't know that Honesty necessarily has as much to do with disclosure as it has to do with the direction of the heart.

[65:52] Michael: Yeah, I got you.

[65:54] Matt: Is to say, no, I'm going to be here in this transactional. It's

[66:01] Michael: almost like more character than it is about anything else. Yeah.

[66:04] Matt: And I'm going to be honest with you, however little I may say. It's not about disclosure. It's about the directional desire of the relationship. It's like, I would like this relationship to bear fruit. And the same with your kids. It's like, it's not about disclosure. It's about, I love you and I want the best for you, and you're a blessing to me. That's the honesty. And I'm gonna make sure that I behave in a way that acknowledges that. And just like we were talking about the arranged marriage earlier, it's like, maybe the most fertile soil ever in existence is a young child. I'm gonna make sure to plant good seed in you.

[66:49] Michael: Yeah.

[66:51] Matt: Honest. Yes. Good. Yes. All of it. No. You know,

[66:57] Michael: well, also, like, to be honest doesn't mean sometimes people are think, like, to be honest is to be brutally honest. And I don't think that's really being honest. It's like, there's a. There's an appropriateness of honesty.

[67:09] Matt: Isn't that there. Isn't there that character in that show Lie to me? Yes,

[67:15] Michael: totally. And it's just like, it's. It. I think there's, like, that's the wisdom of, like, what is honesty? It's not just about brutal honesty, like, telling something, everything, everyone. Everything that you think you know. But there's, again, even with the small talk thing is, like, what does this situation require? And sometimes it's just more of like. Like, small talk is sort of a way to acknowledge somebody and say, hey, how are you? And it's a way to like, I'm interested in this relationship. I don't know how interested I am in this relationship. And so that's something you're also figuring out between the two people. And. Because it's like, how deep can you go with everybody? It's like. But at the same time, I think there's something that is beautiful about that and. And something that you and I talked about a little while ago just, like, is like, opening yourself up to, like, okay, where can we go with this? You know? And. And I think that's, like, just trying it on. Like, maybe they don't want to hear you complain about something, but, like, what is. What does this situation require? And I think that's something that whenever I see somebody, I'm always sort of like, okay, what, what is, what is, what's the, what does this situation call for? And sometimes, like, I just don't have time for it. I'm just like, hey, how are you doing? Do the thing and move on. You know?

[68:43] Matt: Right.

[68:43] Michael: But if I'm more in myself, I, I think more about that as like, okay, what is this? Is this, Is this time for me to listen and ask questions or to share something and kind of test the waters out on what that, what that is? I've had a couple of moments where I started sharing and then I realized, like, oh, no, this is a time for this person to share.

[69:08] Matt: Right? You know, oh, this wasn't time. This wasn't sharing time. This

[69:11] Michael: is

[69:11] Matt: interesting. It's not my turn.

[69:13] Michael: No, it's like. And then I see how much it served the person for me, even if I, I share something. But for me to stop and actually activated them to share and they needed that. And that's what I could contribute to that conversation was being an active participant and listening. And, and so I think that's the part we're always navigating is like, it's like, how do I, how do I engage it in the world in an honest and sincere way? You know, sometimes it's as the listener, sometimes as, as the giver or, you know, it's like, and it's just like, like God asks us to be engaged and listen.

[69:57] Matt: I was just thinking about that about as you were talking, like this question, is God honest? And I thought, well, I feel like I have to take it as, take it for granted that he is. Because if he's not, if he's a liar, well, that's no God. That's not a God.

[70:17] Michael: Yeah,

[70:17] Matt: that's something else. That's something else that I don't want to have anything to do with. So I think in a sense, God has to be honest. Does God tell us everything? No. And I think, well, why? And then I think maybe it's because, you know, if you had the portal on the backside of your head like Neo in the Matrix, and God just plugged in and gave you all the information, you would explode. Like, you wouldn't, like you couldn't handle it.

[70:50] Michael: Yeah,

[70:50] Matt: you would, you know, system malfunction. You'd be a potato. So I think often it's out of love that God is withholding. I don't even think it's about withholding. It's about, it's about growing us into the people who can handle the truth, you know, to. To quote Captain or Colonel Jessup and name that movie Tom Cruise.

[71:19] Michael: Oh, yeah. A Few Good Men.

[71:21] Matt: A Few Good Men.

[71:22] Michael: I think there's. Oh,

[71:23] Matt: yeah, go ahead.

[71:24] Michael: I was just thinking, like, I can think of so many times in my life where I'm like, God, where are you? Just show me.

[71:32] Matt: Yeah.

[71:33] Michael: And I feel like every time when I look back on those moments, I'm like, oh, I don't think I could have accepted that answer.

[71:40] Matt: Yeah.

[71:41] Michael: And so there's sometimes a. Shoot, a grace, I guess, of, like, him not answering us because we're not ready to hear it. Like, if he told us, we wouldn't. We wouldn't even understand it. Does that make sense?

[72:03] Matt: Yeah. I was thinking that after my dad died, and so for those who don't know the story, my dad died unexpectedly at 64. And, like, very, very suddenly and unexpectedly. He was having a fairly normal day, and my mom just found him dead lying on the couch. And they tried to resuscitate him. Couldn't. Called 911. They came, they tried to resuscitate him, couldn't. And he was pronounced dead. And one of my dad's best friends, who's a pastor, was over at my house, my mom's house, a few days after he died. And we were just all, you know, in this. Sort of in mourning. And he was talking to me about how because he's a pastor, he. He deals with death a lot, and people in his church die and he is there,

[72:59] Michael: consoles him. Yeah,

[73:00] Matt: yeah. And so, like, so much, like. So I wanted to have an autopsy done on my dad. And the pastor deals with this so much. He actually, like, has connections to people at the morgue and, you know, to like. And he's like, it's a mess. Like, if he was like, I'll make some calls and I'll get it done. Otherwise it might take months or something like that. Whatever. I'll let say it's just very familiar. And he said, I've. I've seen it happen where, you know, somebody dies by apparent heart attack, like your dad likely did, and they try to resuscitate him, and they. They actually do resuscitate them, resuscitate them, but they're not really there. They're in really bad shape for some period of time before they ultimately die again. And he said, there's a severe mercy to the fact that he didn't come back. And that word, those two words, severe mercy, have been like some sort of almost like a searing Comfort. It's like there's a paradox in it. But I think it's a severe mercy that causes God to withhold from us because, you know, I think our appetites are a lot bigger than our stomachs or our eyes are bigger than our stomachs in terms of what we want to know and what we would like to happen. And, you know, we talk. You and I talk about this a lot that. I mean, not a lot, but the Powerball was at a billion recently, so we bought some tickets. Statistically, people who win the lottery, like, it's really likely that it's going to ruin your life. So it's really easy to imagine that you would want a lot of money. What's not easy to imagine is how terribly dangerous that is. And you want to think that money is only a good. So it's only going to solve problems. Money creates a lot more problems than it solves. And I think maybe anything worth having is like that. The truth. I mean, even metaphorically, it is this way. It's like anyone who gets even close to looking at God's face has terrible repercussions. You know, they're either blind or struck down. It's like the truth. What's that phrase from? Ted Lasso? I don't think they wrote it, but it's. The truth will set you free. But first it'll piss you off, which is why we don't really want to know the truth, because it pisses us off.

[75:48] Michael: Yeah.

[75:48] Matt: You know, I don't want to face the fact that I'm actually not all that great of a person. It's way easier just to think I am, you know?

[75:56] Michael: Yeah. Or at least better than most other people, you know,

[76:00] Matt: so, you know, not getting the truth all at once is something like a severe mercy.

[76:08] Michael: Yeah, it is.

[76:12] Matt: And letting it be revealed to me, however painfully slowly, I'll take that. And I'll recognize that, especially as I get older, I'm like, oh, yeah, I am. I do not. Like, I think about myself in my 20s, just fucking confident. Didn't need things like sleep or food. I was just going, fueled by nitrous. You know, it's just like, I could do anything. There was no such thing as limitation. And now I'm like, oh, wow, I was so wrong.

[76:54] Michael: Yeah.

[76:56] Matt: Now. Now my prayer is more like, God, I'd like to know the truth. Please be gentle.

[77:01] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to, like, ask. Ask for the other. Because it really is. I don't know. I think that's. I do like that whole Whole thing of, like, if you really want to know, you're gonna find out,

[77:23] Matt: fuck around, find out.

[77:24] Michael: It really is. I think God's definitely like that. You fuck around and you find out

[77:28] Matt: God's a fafo God.

[77:30] Michael: God, I love it. God is a fat folk. God is. Sorry, that was like some sort of. Like,

[77:37] Matt: we should like, start a whole genre of worship music that's, like, really diversive, like

[77:44] Michael: silly.

[77:45] Matt: Lots of curse words.

[77:47] Michael: I like that.

[77:53] Matt: There's this really great clip, speaking of worship musicians, of Rich Mullins. Do you remember Rich Mullins? Like a big 90s guy, 80s and 90s guy. There's a clip of. I saw of him recently. It was not a recent clip. It was an old clip, but I saw it recently. He was saying that God is a wild man, and I hope someday you get to meet him. And if you do have the opportunity to meet him, hold on for dear life. Then he goes, or maybe let go for dear life. I thought that was really beautiful. God is a wild man. If you meet him, let go for dear life.

[78:36] Michael: Yeah. It's so crazy. Well, I mean, just to kind of circle back. I think that's, you know. You know, for. I think that we don't. We don't really know people's hearts. And, like, the way Scott Adams describes his experience, and even for him to even say that in the first three sentences, I think it's just. It says a lot about him that there was something in his experience that made him make that statement. And I think I'm just more comfortable with doubt in general. And so I'm like. That's why that didn't really bother me. Was like. It's like. It's hard to know. I mean.

[79:29] Matt: Yeah. What is it that you're even saying?

[79:32] Michael: Yeah. And it's just. It blows me away all the time. And I appreciate the simplicity of it because it really is simple. But the complexity of it just blows me away. Like, I just can't even grasp it. And sometimes I have to, like, come back to the simplicity. It's like I believe that's it, and. And then I jump back into the deep waters. Yeah. Because it's like, I'm just, like, so blown away. It's like, man, I must be fucking insane. Like, who. Like. But it works. What is this? I don't understand it. It's like, even, like, just explaining these things to my kids. It's just so hard. I'm like. I'm like, you'll. You'll experience this at some point, and I just trust that, you know, I wasn't really until late teens, early 20s before I really experienced it, you know.

[80:33] Matt: Yeah.

[80:33] Michael: And it's. It's hard to. It's hard to explain to people until you do. And, and then once you do, it's hard to turn away from that. And I think that's really. I mean, even when you do, you experience what it feels like to turn away from it. You're like, oh, wait a minute, things make a lot less sense over here in this turning away space.

[81:02] Matt: Yeah. Well, it's interesting how we can all. I mean, it goes back to the whole idea of metaphorically true. It's like we all understand that if you're trying to pick out who you would be in the story of the Matrix, you don't want to be Cypher. You don't want to be the guy who partners with the machine to get plugged back in so he can live a false illusion. He can go to sleep and have a nice little dream. You don't want to be him. It's harder for us to see it in our own hearts, in our own lives.

[81:47] Michael: I can see the side for me, honestly.

[81:49] Matt: Well, I think I can too, but I think it's taken me a long time.

[81:52] Michael: Oh, gotcha.

[81:53] Matt: And I think if I were to diagnose, if I were to get to pick one thing that I think is wrong with our modern culture, it's that we have stopped imagining that there's any such thing as evil in our own hearts. The Solzhenitsyn line, which was written only very recently in the last century, which is that the line between good and evil is drawn right down the heart of every man has become lost on us. I think that you ask, I would suspect this is true. I don't know. I think that if you asked a random sampling of people in the United States, does evil exist? A majority of them would say no, or they would at least hedge toward no. I don't think that most people,

[82:52] Michael: I don't know, 50% of the people think Donald Trump's evil. So, so maybe they believe in evil. I don't know.

[83:01] Matt: Yeah, maybe that's. That's an interesting point.

[83:07] Michael: Well,

[83:07] Matt: maybe, maybe the point is that, yeah, evil exists over there and what we need to do is get rid of it.

[83:14] Michael: Ah, good point. And

[83:15] Matt: I think, I think the problem with that is like, oh, no, actually you're the evil one. You're the one that's setting up the camps. You're the one that wants to do the genocide. What we don't see in our modern culture, what most people don't see is that the evil resides in us. And so I think you can say, I see the cipher in me. I see the cipher in me, too. There's a part of me that often is like, well, if I just chose evil, could I at least not worry so much about my bills?

[83:47] Michael: Because

[83:47] Matt: maybe that would be a fair trade. And then I have to look at myself with horror and say, what are you doing?

[83:53] Michael: What kind of person would that.

[83:54] Matt: What kind of person are you? Do you want to forfeit your heart for money? I rebuke myself. You know, but there's something about the terms of the modern world in which it's really hard to see things that way. And I think most people don't. And why would you want to see things that way? That sucks. It's like we all imagine that a good life is. Has something to do with pleasure and success.

[84:28] Michael: Well, you also see that just. I mean, whether you're on. What was your terminology of not saying left or right?

[84:34] Matt: No, I don't remember.

[84:36] Michael: I thought that was. I kind of liked about that better.

[84:38] Matt: I was using tribes.

[84:39] Michael: Oh, tribes. Yeah. It's like you kind of have these different tribes, and if you don't see that the other tribe also has good in them, you know, and try to reconcile with that part of them, I think there's something really. It'll tear you apart, too. It's like poor. In the same way you judge others, you will be judged. And if you can't see the good in other people, then I think that's something that will also tear you apart or even, like, you know, we were talking about earlier was those who live by the sword, die by the sword. And like, if you're going to. If you're going to go into the world and think you can decide what is good and bad and what is, you know, good and evil. That's a really dangerous, dangerous thing to do, you know, just because, like, who are you the arbitrary of, like, what is.

[85:40] Matt: Yeah, well, our whole justice system is predicated on the good in other people.

[85:46] Michael: Yeah. I

[85:46] Matt: mean, that's so interesting because it's even, you know, the. The death penalty is. Is largely debated, I guess, or, you know, frowned upon by a lot of people. And it's interesting to me because I think those on the political left would probably be most likely to be against the death penalty. But I think we've gotten to a point where. Well, and I say that's interesting because if. If Trump were prosecuted, convicted, and given the death Penalty. That whole group of people who would be most likely to get rid of, to oppose the death penalty would literally party. They would watch it, they would stream it, they would show it to their four year old child.

[86:34] Michael: We saw the Charlie Kirk, you know, that was kind of.

[86:36] Matt: Yes, they celebrated that. And again, I don't even necessarily want to call it the political left. It was only on the political left that you saw people celebrating Charlie's murder. But it was a subsection of it that I feel like is culturally separate from the politics of general progressivism.

[86:54] Michael: Yeah.

[86:59] Matt: Oh, I was driving toward the point, but I forgot now

[87:02] Michael: you're talking about like Trump.

[87:04] Matt: Well, you were talking about seeing the good in people, people. And I was saying that our, our justice system is predicated on that because, well, one, you're innocent until proven guilty and then even when you're proven guilty, we do not take your humanity, even if we take some of your rights.

[87:20] Michael: Yeah,

[87:20] Matt: we still recognize the value of your humanity, which is why we don't just murder everyone who commits a crime. You know, wouldn't that just be easier and cleaner and cost us a lot less, less money?

[87:32] Michael: We also recognize degrees you know, of.

[87:35] Matt: But I think the principle that undergirds that has been jettisoned and we're still left with the skeleton of that system and it's still functioning to some degree. But you're starting to see that fail because the principle is gone. And the principle is that all men are created equal in the image of God. Without that principle, there's nothing from which to build the current system that we have. And if we don't restore the principle, the system will fall.

[88:03] Michael: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely a. If you don't think or believe the way that I think or believe, then you're evil is there's, there's a certain. I mean, you see that in a lot of, a lot of different tribal aspects of Western culture today. That's really disheartening. Yeah, I really kind of want to get away from talking about like left or right because it's like, I just don't feel like it's very accurate kind of to your point. You know, it just feels like there's like, it's more of like a zeitgeist that has hold of a certain way in the west and it's.

[88:44] Matt: Yeah, I'm almost seeing it. It's like a third dimension to the left. Right. Binary. There's like something that is being pulled up or down out of that binary two dimensional space into three dimensional space. And you have overlaid on the left what looks to me very much like insanity, but you also have overlaid on the right some things that increasingly start to look like the same insanity that's just operating with a different set of incentives and motives. And, you know, maybe, maybe our online life is partly responsible for this because as we said earlier, you know, we don't really notice this ever happening in real life. It just happens online.

[89:31] Michael: Well, I think the right's harder to see because it's been so overplayed because the more left leaning media has labeled so much. And basically I was talking about Austin and we were just discussing all these things. It's like center left, even center left left is considered right. So it's like alt right is almost everything from center left all the way to right right. So you don't even, you almost can't even identify the actual whatever for the far right is because it's, it's such a broad category. It's hard to like understand it where, like when we talk about the far left, that's. Or at least in our eyes,

[90:17] Matt: nobody uses the term far left.

[90:19] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[90:20] Matt: And that's actually, I think by the left's design, there's just the left and, and the far right. To your point, there is no, there is no center anymore. There's just the left and the far right.

[90:32] Michael: Well, there is a center. It's like people like you, like you and I are, who are like kind of center, left, center right. They're like, wait a minute.

[90:38] Matt: Yeah, well, no, it's under the new paradigm. We are far right.

[90:41] Michael: Yeah, it's crazy.

[90:42] Matt: But I, I mean, I was a left center left guy under the old rules. Under the pre Trump rules.

[90:51] Michael: Totally.

[90:51] Matt: Right. This is what's so interesting and interesting to me and what is so funny to me about why I lost, you know, friends and family at least online over this is. I basically just pointed out I was a left center left guy and then a bunch of left center left people went and ran under the red label and won. That's crazy to me. And I was, you know, ejected. You. You are disgraciad. Bring a little jcal into

[91:25] Michael: this,

[91:28] Matt: which is nuts. That's nuts to me. But we are living in a time that is nuts.

[91:34] Michael: Yeah.

[91:37] Matt: We've been going for a while. We

[91:38] Michael: should. Yeah.

[91:40] Matt: Wrap it up.

[91:41] Michael: Yeah. Any closing thoughts?

[91:50] Matt: No,

[91:53] Michael: I've got one. Got

[91:54] Matt: one. Okay, give me, give me one.

[91:55] Michael: No, I think just it's, it's, it's. It's important to take captive every thought, you know, just to think about what direction you're heading. And if you're. If you're moving in a way that's producing more life and love, then keep heading in that direction. And I think that's something that. If life, love, and beauty are moving. And that's. That's the thing is, like, it's also there. There's sadness there. There's mourning, There's. It's not like just happy, happy, joy, joy, but there's something about moving in the direction of life and love that is. That's meaningful. And if you find those you disagree with, but you can't love them, you can disagree with them, but if you can't love them, then I think that's something that we all need to check our hearts with. It's like, you should be able to love those like, love your enemy, you know? If you can't love your enemy, then there's something wrong with. With me. With you.

[92:58] Matt: Not with the enemy,

[92:59] Michael: with your heart. Exactly.

[93:00] Matt: Yeah.

[93:00] Michael: And it doesn't. It doesn't condone what they're doing. And that's something like. That's a whole nother part, but

[93:05] Matt: that's an interesting point that to love is not to condone.

[93:11] Michael: Yeah.

[93:13] Matt: All right. Well, cheers to that.

[93:14] Michael: Cheers to that.

[93:15] Matt: Let's move toward love and life.

[93:16] Michael: Love and life. Cheers. And whiskey.

[93:18] Matt: Yeah. Sam.