Are we more united than we think?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Yeah. What does that make me?

[0:26] Michael: Just means that we need to go to the shores.

[0:28] Matt: Okay.

[0:28] Michael: Let's go. Let's go there. To the shores. Cheers. To the shores.

[0:36] Matt: We seem to survive the Arctic blast of the south totally Pretty uneventfully relative to the last couple. It was like, not nothing. I didn't even really hear about people losing power in Austin.

[0:50] Michael: Did you? A few people did. It was. Yeah. But it wasn't anything.

[0:54] Matt: Not like a couple years ago, my power was out for a week.

[0:57] Michael: Yeah.

[0:57] Matt: Yeah. It seems like Nashville got pretty beat up, though.

[1:01] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[1:01] Matt: The images I saw from there were bad.

[1:05] Michael: Yeah. I'm always a weatherman when it comes down to this. The system actually didn't come down as south as it was supposed to.

[1:14] Matt: Is that true?

[1:15] Michael: Yeah.

[1:16] Matt: Okay. Michael, the meteorologist.

[1:19] Michael: Well, it's like when you're. It's like I can never relax whenever these things happen because I have to decide on whether we're going to open the stores or not open the stores and. And all the. If you're wrong or either way it really sucks. So.

[1:34] Matt: Yeah.

[1:35] Michael: But I usually call it pretty good. This last time I didn't. We closed on Saturday, which we should have been open on Saturday.

[1:40] Matt: So my local pub, Lazarus, which I love that place, Shout out to Christian. And they stayed open. I think they were open every day. They were closing early and I think it was on Saturday just because I wanted to get out of the house and like see how the roads were feeling and you know, do some donuts in the. On the ice.

[2:01] Michael: You mean Sunday?

[2:03] Matt: Sunday. Was that Sunday? Yeah, Sunday. And I decided to go over there and have a beer. And the staff did not seem too happy about having to work, but I was happy to sit at my. One of my favorite places and have a. Have a cold one.

[2:16] Michael: Yeah, that's kind of wild. It's like when people aren't used to this kind of weather, it can rub people certain ways.

[2:28] Matt: That is really interesting that when you're not used to it, the change is really dramatic because if they shut down schools and businesses and everything in Colorado for the same reasons they do here, Colorado would never function. So people have to become resilient in different ways, get experienced in different things.

[2:51] Michael: Then you also have more four wheel drive vehicles and the preparedness. Salt and stuff. Our infrastructure is just crap when it comes to.

[2:59] Matt: Yeah.

[3:00] Michael: Salting roads and stuff.

[3:02] Matt: Right. So what's going on? What do you want to get into tonight?

[3:06] Michael: Oh, I don't know. I feel like kind of what we were talking about earlier, I feel like my, my brain is all over the place with, with different things, kind of different realizations.

[3:19] Matt: I don't know if I said this last week, but it kind of feels like a little bit to me where it seems like kind of one thing after another. It's like one crisis preceded by the next. And the rate of the news headlines or whatever is just going so quick. It's like we just forgot about the last thing we were upset about. We're onto the next thing or the last horrific thing that happened or onto the next one or the last geopolitical event or whatever. Yeah, it's kind of a head spin.

[3:52] Michael: One thing I thought was fascinating, I watched a lot of the Davos stuff, caught Elon's and Trumps and David Sachs and Jason Kokenis was on doing a bunch of interviews.

[4:05] Matt: Did jcal talk?

[4:07] Michael: No, he didn't talk. He was just doing a lot of interviews and stuff. But I thought it was really fascinating. One big takeaway that most people had was, is kind of like moving away from sort of this one world order talking points that the WEF always kind of had into more of, hey, we need to take care of ourselves.

[4:30] Matt: That's Klaus Schwab's thing, isn't it?

[4:32] Michael: Well, now Larry Fink is the chairman or heading it up.

[4:36] Matt: Oh, interesting.

[4:37] Michael: Yeah. So it's like it was very pro business.

[4:40] Matt: And it seems like this in previous years, whatever happened at the WEF didn't really get covered by, like, it wasn't really talked about. You might see a clip here or there, but it seemed like this year, like, it was different that Trump spoke, which, like, I don't remember any president ever speaking at WEF before.

[5:02] Michael: Only two presidents, and both of those were Trump.

[5:04] Matt: He spoke what, during his first term?

[5:06] Michael: I think so, yeah.

[5:07] Matt: Why do you think that is? Why did he do that? Why did they want him to do that?

[5:11] Michael: It's a good question. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I was really impressed. Like Lutnick and Besson and Trump and they're very unified in their, in their talking points and it was very contrary to or contrasting to some like, you know, European views. And, and it was very contentious too, which was, which was interesting. But I think it, it kind of was a wake up call a little bit too, like, hey, you need to take care of your home. It's before we start trying to solve all the problems for all the, all the rest of the World. Yeah, and there's something about that, too. I think. There's like, as a family or as a person, like, there's times when you need to, like, focus outward, and there's other times when you focus inward and.

[6:02] Matt: Yeah.

[6:03] Michael: And you always get it wrong, but.

[6:06] Matt: Well, it's really hard to focus outward if the inward isn't tended to. I mean, even if you're of your own personal self, you know, if you don't tend to your, your own needs, I mean, isn't like. What's the word? Whatever you're supposed to feel good, like, self health or whatever? Yeah, it's like a big thing. I don't know why I can't come up with words right now. Yeah, but you can't. Yeah, it's like you can't take care of somebody else if you can't take care of yourself.

[6:47] Michael: Yeah, it's like there's a lot of Band Aid problems that the world has been putting on, like, whether it's debts and money, supply and trade, and it's just interesting to, you know, there's, I guess, just understanding the times of the times you live in. Like, there's certain times where it's like, I think, you know, maybe outsourcing was a good thing for a period of time, but then at some point, it starts to become not a good thing, and you need to bring some of that stuff home and, And I don't know. I think that's.

[7:20] Matt: What was the general reaction to, like, the Trump administration's position.

[7:28] Michael: It just depends on who you listen to. You know, a lot of it, you know, you go all the way towards, like, sort of the, you know, we need to stand up to him. He's a bully. Gavin Newsom was also there, and he was basically telling all the other nations to stand up to Trump.

[7:46] Matt: Really?

[7:47] Michael: Yeah. Which was kind of funny that he would be there.

[7:52] Matt: Which just kind of proves the point of we need to take care of ourselves. If we're infighting about our messaging to the rest of the world, that we probably have some issues to take care of.

[8:04] Michael: Yeah, but it was mixed. I, I, you know, I think there's a sense of, like, Trump kind of getting us out of a bunch of obligations, whether it be to the WHO or there's, like, a whole bunch of different organizations that we kind of left. And the whole, A lot of the idea was that, you know, the US has been carrying a lot of these things, and it's not really to our benefit as a country to do that and that we need to Kind of take care of our own backyard kind of stuff. And I think that's kind of why his big push for Greenland is. Because that really does directly affect our national security. Now, whether that happens or not. I've always thought that was a joke.

[8:52] Matt: It's still not clear to me if it is like a troll.

[8:55] Michael: Oh, no.

[8:56] Matt: I mean, I've heard some compelling arguments made for why it would be in our interest both for national security and for the future sort of state of the Arctic. Like new shipping lanes might be opening up. If some of this like ice melt stuff is true and for us to have control over that would be beneficial.

[9:15] Michael: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it makes, I think it makes sense, but just, it's just, just kind of funny. I would. We're going to take Greenland. Like what? Okay, I get the logic behind it, but still, like, that's just sort of funny.

[9:32] Matt: Well, I mean, maybe that lends some credence to the Trumps being a bully kind of thing. I mean, he is basically saying we're just going to take what we want, which that really is indicative of some kind of new world order.

[9:42] Michael: Yeah. But I've really been liking this talk around the whole getting the whole drug trade just abolished. And part of it, as I'm kind of hearing a little bit more about what that means, like, why didn't we do this earlier? Like, who's our biggest enemy? Our biggest enemy is. Or one of the biggest enemies to us as a nation are the cartels.

[10:07] Matt: Yeah.

[10:08] Michael: You know, bringing in all the drugs and you know, also just all the criminal activity around it.

[10:14] Matt: Right.

[10:15] Michael: It's like maybe we should be treating them as ISIS or you know, as an invading army or.

[10:23] Matt: Well, it is kind of strange that we wouldn't, given some of the things that they were doing, especially around illegal immigration on the southern border and like a lot of people were dying on account of the drug cartels and the way that they were trafficking humans over the border and drugs with them. It's obviously a threat to our people.

[10:43] Michael: Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. Just there's so many things with even I don't know much about this, but NASA also sending some people up to the moon, I guess. Are they going to go around it?

[10:58] Matt: Yeah, I didn't look into that, but I was like, I thought NASA didn't have the ability to launch rockets anymore, which is why SpaceX has been doing all the missions to the space station. So I need to look into that and understand what they're planning to do.

[11:10] Michael: Yeah.

[11:11] Matt: Are they going to contract SpaceX to do it?

[11:14] Michael: Well, NASA's. Oh, no, I don't want to get into that. I started looking at, like, what are the plans? And Elon's plan. It seems like the most, like, Blue Origin is basically almost repeating 1960 moon landing idea.

[11:33] Matt: The Jeff Bezos company.

[11:35] Michael: Yeah. So they're kind of basically modeling it after that. And Elon's like, no, what we'll do is we shoot this thing up and shoot the spaceship into the. Into the moon and then we just let it land and then we knock it over and then we make that a moon base.

[11:51] Matt: Oh, interesting.

[11:52] Michael: Yeah. Instead of, like, shipping all this other stuff into space that's going to cost a lot of money and a lot of time, we'll just dump this thing here.

[12:02] Matt: Can you send a camera up first so we can watch it? I want to see the starship just dump over.

[12:07] Michael: Well, it's cool. There's all different, like, ways that they could do it. Like, they could inflate a balloon and then they just kind of like, make it land and then deflate it as it. Anyways, I kind of went down a little.

[12:19] Matt: It sounds cool.

[12:20] Michael: I want to see it, but it just makes sense. Like, let's do this. We need to have some practice runs here for if we're going to move into the universe and out beyond. I'm excited about that stuff, space stuff. I just need Medici to make a lot of money so I can start my own space program.

[12:44] Matt: Start your own space program?

[12:46] Michael: Buy more coffee.

[12:48] Matt: Okay, everybody go buy as much coffee

[12:51] Michael: as you can because we're going to the moon.

[12:55] Matt: You know, I wasn't alive and neither were you in, like, the 60s, but when the space race was on, it seemed like that was consuming a lot of public attention, public energy. There was a lot of momentum behind. Seems to be kind of the announcements even that I've read about potentially NASA going back to the moon. It's just kind of like, okay, whatever, we're all distracted with a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't seem like that has the ability to capture the national attention like it did in the 60s. What's your take on what is the temperature of the culture in the United States right now? What is it? What. What is it that we're doing? You know what I mean? Like, what are we moving toward?

[13:43] Michael: Are.

[13:44] Matt: Are we unified in anything?

[13:48] Michael: It's a really good question. I think we're a lot more unified than what sometimes we see on the news and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm Starting to. I feel like, you know, I think we, we agree about a lot more than what we, we think we do. And I think we disagree on a lot of particulars. Even though it's our conversation last week about immigration. I think most people can agree that we should have immigration, but it needs to follow some sort of rules based immigration. You just can't let everybody in. That's not a viable option. So I think there's just things that we. I think then we just disagree maybe on some of the particulars of what it looks like or how we're going

[14:35] Matt: to do it, but it seems like we're being coaxed into. I was going to say led to belief, but maybe coaxed into believing because I'm not sure that someone's necessarily leading us there. Maybe it's a confluence of things just including social media and unwieldy algorithms and information bubbles that we live in, and the strange paradox of the information age making it much harder to know what actually happened than the previous age. That's the way it seems to me, which is fascinating because we live in this Panopticon when everything that happens gets recorded from seven different angles by different cameras. And we watch it and we think we know what happened. And then almost every time an event happens, especially something that's really horrific to watch, whether that's George Floyd or some of the stuff happening in Minnesota, the story keeps changing dramatically as time goes on and new facts are revealed or another video angle comes out. And it's like, I think we're coaxed into believing that we know what's happening and simultaneously we know less about what's happening while we feel like we know more about what's happening. But I was gonna say I think we're being coaxed into believing that we're on the edge of some sort of like national divorce or potentially civil war, there are folks sort of worrying about that at least, and I wonder how true that might be. Is there any truth to that at all? Or is it just an artifact of the Internet that we're all seeing the most divisive, the most disturbing, the most upsetting, not just information, but narratives around that information. Whereas if you were to somehow sort of get an understanding of what the average person thinks, or maybe even just like the 90% or 95% of Americans, what they think about things, they really would feel similarly about them. And it's only the derision of the very small percent that rises to the top of the feeds that we think represents reality. And it doesn't yeah, it seems highly possible.

[16:58] Michael: I go definitely with the latter. I think you're seeing a lot more people. I mean, we anecdotally like just living in Austin and Texas in general, just the amount of people moving here. Because when you have, like, especially from California and New York, you know, it's. It's a lot of that sort of thing. Fringe rhetoric is. Is in those places being enacted on a large scale. And you're starting to see those places sort of kind of unravel.

[17:31] Matt: I saw somebody talking about their theory of why the Biden administration let in so many illegal aliens and why there's this really sort of frothing at the mouth attempt to stop the deportation of illegal aliens. And you're seeing it. You kind of saw it in LA and then kind of in Chicago. It's kind of a bigger different thing in Minneapolis right now. And it obviously has escalated into some pretty horrific scenes. But this guy was saying that one of the reasons Democrats do not want to deport illegal aliens is that the trend in the American population is that people are leaving blue states and moving to red states. And the result of that is that by the time we get to the 2030 census, it's predicted that every blue state is going to lose House seats and every red state is going to pick up House seats.

[18:33] Michael: Yeah, that makes sense.

[18:34] Matt: Which means a near permanent loss of power for the Democrats. Yeah, they need the bodies because the census is. It counts bodies, it doesn't count citizens,

[18:45] Michael: which is so weird. It's like.

[18:46] Matt: It is weird.

[18:47] Michael: That doesn't make any sense to me.

[18:48] Matt: Like, why don't we just change that? Yeah, you know, I don't know.

[18:53] Michael: Yeah, there's a lot of things that. Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, I feel like there's so many things we all could get behind if we just didn't get lost in all the sort of the particulars. Like, hey, let's not have any fraud in the tax paying money that we do.

[19:18] Matt: It doesn't even seem like though we're getting lost in the particulars, it seems like we're getting lost in the false narratives. Do you know what I mean?

[19:26] Michael: Yeah, I get you. I get you.

[19:28] Matt: Like whether it's the Doge stuff or the previous thing in Minnesota, which was the fraud surrounding the Somali population, the national conversation seems to not be arguing over the particulars of what's going on. It seems to be arguing over the false narratives that are just way more salacious and get a lot more people engaged.

[19:58] Michael: Yeah, that's so crazy. I'm gonna take a side step on this for a second, but because a lot of this I've been thinking about, just even in myself, of how I was watching this video of. Of Tony Robbins, which I've never really. I read one of his books, but I don't really pay attention to him. But he was talking about, you know, there's one person, and he was talking to that person as if they were two people. And you even saw, as he was talking to the two different people in this person, how the one was sabotaging the other. And I thought that was just fascinating. It's like even within ourselves, we're sabotaging ourselves. So. So I even, you know, I come back to the conversation we're having right now. It's like. It's like, how much are we sabotaging ourselves, you know, by, you know, just because we're angry about something else. And this is the way that I can take out my revenge on you, even though I'm frustrated that you just won't pay attention to me, you know,

[21:04] Matt: or take out my revenge on somebody else on you, because that person isn't available.

[21:11] Michael: Yeah, I was just thinking, like, within myself, like just that, that whole sabotaging. And, you know, I can think things about myself, but if I think about it from a different perspective, it looks completely different. And I can almost make the case, you know, like, I would love to make more money. And there's a part of me is like, oh, that's just selfish and, you know, greedy and that kind of stuff. And the other side of me is like, no, because then think about all the things we could do with that and help people and all this kind of stuff, you know, but it's like there's this war going on inside me, and you see that on a national scale, like all these selfish billionaires that are, you know, we need to tax them and. But the other side of it, I'm looking at, like, look at the industries they're creating, the futures they're creating, you know?

[22:04] Matt: Yeah.

[22:06] Michael: It's like rockets, electrical cars. We want to. We want to have a clean environment, don't we? Well, we need people investing in those things, and those are high risk, high reward things. And, you know, I can't risk my thousand dollars that I have in my bank account because it's not going to do anything. And then I'll be broke. And I'll be broke. Yeah.

[22:27] Matt: It kind of leads me to wonder, because that's a really great point that we sabotage ourselves all the time. And we do it because there's a lot of things that are true about ourselves that we wish weren't true. And we can sort of make them not true either by sabotaging ourselves. We can also make things true that aren't by sabotaging ourselves. And maybe that's playing out in sort of the body politic in some way. Like, I wonder if we really want to know what's true. And as much as people kick and scream and say they want the truth, whether it's JFK assassination or 911 or the Epstein files, or we want to see the truth, I wonder how true that is, because I find in my own self, like, when I evaluate my own heart, say, I want to know myself, I want to know my heart. Sometimes, though, I get a good look and I'm like, I don't. I would. No, I want to look away from that.

[23:33] Michael: Yeah, let's not do that.

[23:34] Matt: Yeah, let's not do that. Peterson says that it's like, you want to know what's wrong with your life, sit down on the edge of your bed and ask, and yourself will answer, and it's going to tell you stuff you don't want to know. And I have found that to be true in myself, in that there are times when I'm like, God, things feel really wrong in my life, and it's such a struggle, and it shouldn't be this way, or I don't want it to be this way. And it's like, I'm in my 40s. Shouldn't things be going better for me? And I do that thought experiment. I was like, go sit down on your bed and think about why your life isn't as good as it could be. And I'm like, no, I think I'm kind of hungry. I probably should make a sandwich, you know what I mean? Because you kind of get a glimmer of the answer to that question, and you see that it sort of turtles all the way down. And you don't want to start pulling on that thread because you wonder how much of your sweater is going to come undone. Totally shout out to Weezer. I mean, I think that's really true in the body politic as well. It's like, we want to know the truth, what actually happened. And then as soon as we get a glimpse of what the actual truth is, we're like, you know, but the other one is more Instagramable. Or, I don't want to, you know, for example, be presented with evidence that dismantles my social and personal relationships, because if they're not presented with that evidence, then I'm going to be ostracized from that group of people. And I can't stand for that, because we are social creatures. We rely on social interactions for sense of self, and we have no sense of self individually. And so for that to be threatened, we would rather. For example, I'm astounded by this all the time. And I started being astounded by this really in 2020, I think post George Floyd and all of the stuff going around the United States about racism, I'm not going to try to remember the examples from that period. But recently I noticed people posting all of these things about Minnesota or ice rather a lot of it's been happening in Minnesota. But ICE people posting their Instagram stories, the uptick of political social justice posting on Instagram is skyrocketed in the last week, which is another reason I said it feels very 2020 to me. But a lot of people are posting slews of headlines about horrible things that ICE are doing. And I'll just give one example. It was like a week ago, the story was that ICE detained this 5 year old boy and then used him as bait to try to arrest his illegal alien mother. And they were keeping him in detention. And that was the headline. And I saw this headline go by a few times and then I was like, I want to look into what happened here. I went and looked into what happened and maybe the information I was reading at that time a week ago has been updated. Maybe some things have turned out to be true or not true. But if you read the. I read, you know, five or six news outlets coverage of it. And the general story was ICE went to arrest a man who had a. They had a warrant and a deportation order. He was with his son when they showed up. He got out of the car and fled on foot, abandoned his son there. So ICE took care of the son. A couple of officers took care of the son. Some of the others pursued him. They, I guess were at the place where they lived. So they took him up to the door and tried to get his mother to take him. They were knocking at the door and they apparently were saying, we're not here for you. Your son's outside. You want your son? And she refused. She refused the boy. So I hung out with him until they apprehended the dad. They asked the dad, what do you want us to do with your son? And he said he'd come, send him with me. So the dad took him and it's like, that's a way different story. But if you're spending all of your time and your social identity being anti ice, it doesn't benefit you to learn that. Because what benefits you is, here's another example. I mean, and when I say benefits you, it's like it benefits your understanding of reality. And so for that to be dismantled, your understanding of reality takes a hit. And we don't want our understanding of reality to take a hit. It's hard on our psyches. So we don't. I don't know the point I'm driving towards here, but it seems like most of us don't take the time to go look into what our reality is built upon. And I think that's true on the individual level as much as it is on the sort of social media, body politics level.

[28:48] Michael: I think you and I have experienced this quite a bit over the last probably 10 years. And it always leads me to the question, what else have I not looked at? Because I feel like anytime I take the time to actually consider a matter either I walk away with, wow, that's a lot more complicated than I thought.

[29:09] Matt: Right?

[29:09] Michael: You know, at least that if not, yeah, whoa, someone's lying to me. Like, I'm whatever, whatever I had believed before, right? And I feel like I very rarely walk away with, okay, that makes sense. But more and more, I find other people that are also as curious about this or have felt that being lied to, that I do kind of will trust with certain amount of information because they also are on that pursuit of, okay, what really happened here? I'm not going to be able to grab it completely, but at least I want to try to give it. It's a fair, fair shake, you know, And I think that's the part is like, when we don't, or at least

[29:55] Matt: at least try to avoid forming opinions based upon information that you haven't at least given, you know, or the, or

[30:04] Michael: the hyperbolic, you know, it's like that's the part that just. I just all of a sudden just turn off. Like, I was watching a CNN thing where this one lady was saying that ICE is, you know, you know, white supremacist. And I was like, what are you. What are you talking about? You can't just say that about ICE is white. Like, their job is to people here illegally to remove them, especially those have warrants and criminal records and that kind of stuff. It's like, is that white supremacist? It's just like the hyperbolic sort of like rhetoric that Just kind of comes out. I'm just sort of like, well, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[30:41] Matt: Well, we've got.

[30:42] Michael: Now, are there, Is there possible that there's some white supremacist in ice? I'll give you that.

[30:47] Matt: Yeah.

[30:48] Michael: But to say ice is. I mean, I would probably say like, that's probably 2%, you know, maybe. But still, it's like I'm gonna, I'm gonna at least entertain. Like, okay, yes, there might be some aspects. Is it 80%? Is it 5%? That's the question I'm. I'm trying to get at. It's not like all of something is.

[31:06] Matt: I can't remember who this guy's name was, but he's a journalist that was present at the January 6th, whatever you want to call that. And he was saying that he had spent the last three years trying to find a neo Nazi to talk to. And he said, I got excited because I actually found one there. It's the first one I'd ever found and could talk to him. And it's like, I think we've gotten so we've been throwing terms around willy nilly that we've become so conditioned to. What is it to not scrutinize what they mean anymore. What is racist? Well, everything's racist. Who's a white supremacist? That's just a white person. It's just a term people that don't like something somebody else used for that person. And so we just start dismissing these words. I mean, in the same way that I would say where I tend to land on social issues would be perceived as sort of right of center, which I take issue with that. But fine, I just sort of start ignoring these terms because they don't mean anything to me. Then the other side who is using the terms is also kind of ignoring the terms because they don't mean anything by them. What they mean by them has nothing to do with white supremacy or racism. It basically means I don't like you or I don't like this. That's what that means.

[32:30] Michael: Yeah. And that's not an argument.

[32:33] Matt: I guess it is if you're five.

[32:34] Michael: Yeah, exactly. That's what it sounds like. I think that's why I dismiss a lot of those terms. It's like, because I just, I don't. You're not. You don't mean what you're. You don't mean what you mean when you're saying it.

[32:45] Matt: Yeah.

[32:45] Michael: And I just want. I just want some clarity. Like, what do you. What do you mean when you say that, And I think that was one interesting scene in Roundtable is that she kind of got called out on it. It's like, like what, what do you mean by that? It's in this, the one with Kevin o'.

[33:02] Matt: Leary.

[33:03] Michael: Yeah.

[33:03] Matt: I watched that clip today.

[33:05] Michael: Yeah. And I thought it was really well done because it was just sort of like. Well, I'm not going to like, you know, disregard all your entire argument, but I just kind of want to know what you mean by this.

[33:16] Matt: Well, I found what was so astounding about what she said was what she said is, isn't it interesting that you don't hear anything about the Proud Boys anymore? And she's like, I think it's because they all became ice officers.

[33:27] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[33:29] Matt: And I was just like, so you're just transmuting somebody that you didn't like into somebody else that you want to not like, with no evidence. And I'm just going to move bad person category here and wrap it around this bad person category over here. Great. And I've got my emotional justification.

[33:49] Michael: Wow. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. None of the stuff even means. But it does mean something to me because I feel like a lot of people are wrapped up in that and also don't know what I'm wrapped up in. I think that's the other side too. I was self examining myself on the way over here and I was like, well, I definitely like bitcoin to the moon. I. I eat, I eat that up.

[34:22] Matt: Yeah.

[34:22] Michael: It's like, give me some more of that opium in that. Just, just put it in my veins.

[34:26] Matt: Yeah.

[34:27] Michael: You know, it's like. So I'll. I'll definitely gorge myself on some of that. And I, I know it's a lot more complicated than, you know, than I like to think, but. But it is going to the moon.

[34:44] Matt: Is there. Is it possible to see what you're wrapped up in while you're wrapped up in it?

[34:48] Michael: Not really, no. I mean, that's why you need people around you to, to balance you out and to, to engage with, to spar with. It's like, it's just so healthy to have that.

[35:01] Matt: Yeah. To that end, a couple people reached out to me after our last week's episode and engaged in what I have really enjoyed and thought were good conversations. So thank you to y' all for that.

[35:12] Michael: Yeah.

[35:12] Matt: It made me hungry for more of that. And maybe, maybe also just like, I'd like to bring some more people in from time to time to add to our conversation and to Give some different points of view. I mean, I think I'm kind of wrapped up in your point of view and you're wrapped up in mine in ways that are, you know, really enjoyable to us, but probably not super healthy for what differing perspectives, I guess.

[35:40] Michael: Well, I think it's interesting because I think you and I both, we do spar and we challenge each other totally. And. And I think that's been fun and healthy for me, but I. To your point, though, is, like, we kind of do center around many of the same conclusions, I guess.

[35:55] Matt: Yeah.

[35:56] Michael: And. But I think it. It's a bit. It's helpful for me to. To think about and. But I do love it, though. I mean, like, kind of. You said, like, you know, some friends reach out and kind of, like, discuss that with you, and it's. Yeah, like, I've really enjoyed that, like, my sauna time, like, you know, discussing things with people and. And, you know, hearing them push back on ideas. And I'm like, all right, well, okay, let's. Let's try that out. What do you think? Why. Why is that? You know, and I think that's just. I think I enjoy it. I don't think I. I want to know if I'm wrong somewhere. And I can see so many areas where I am wrong. And that might be too strong of a word, but wrong. And that I need that correction. You know, I think marriage and my kids have really challenged me in a lot of those areas, you know, like, you know, even I was thinking about, you know, my year and, you know, planning stuff for my life, and I, like, I don't do that. And. And then I started thinking about my kids and my wife, and I'm like, wow. Like, that actually takes something from them by me not doing that. I don't know if I will do anything about it, to be honest, which is kind of sad. But. Yeah. I don't know.

[37:23] Matt: Every time you say things like my sauna time, I feel like I want to interrupt and explain to the listeners what you're talking about. I'll just leave it to their imagination.

[37:32] Michael: Yeah, no, I go, I sauna every morning.

[37:36] Matt: You're like, no, I gotta explain it.

[37:38] Michael: And I just get to meet a lot of interesting people and I get to ask a lot of questions, and it's fun to hear people's perspectives.

[37:48] Matt: Well, I also think it's so good that you get to do that in person. It feels to me like maybe this is somewhat of a me problem, but it does feel like, to me that we do increasingly More of our conversation via texting. You know, this is a pretty, like, it's a pretty relevant modern meme that's like when people call you, you're like, why are you calling me? Just text me. But we end up having a lot of our conversations via text or consuming a lot of conversations via things like podcasts and we don't do, you know, really especially probably. This is probably a. Partly an online problem and partly a Covid problem is that a lot of us, myself included, well, we were first, you know, mandated to be shelter in place and to not have in person gatherings and we kind of got used to it and we just still operate that way. You know, it's like I, I work from home still and conversations are just so different that way, you know, in the online way than they are in person or even just via voice.

[38:57] Michael: Yeah, yeah, I think that's, I think that's going to actually be something as AI and you know, is going to be taking over more and more sort of mundane responsibilities. I think people are going to want that personal interaction more and more, will be starved for it. I think those people who provide spaces for that are ways to engage in that way. I think are gonna. Are gonna do really well, like experiences and stuff.

[39:34] Matt: Well, that's. I've been trying to put words to this in my mind and I just had this epiphany that it's like you've already seen it happening, that you can kind of, you have this sense, or I do this sense or this feeling that I'm being exposed to a lot of AI generated content. And sometimes I can tell, and sometimes I don't know if I can tell. Like you sent me another video angle of that Alex Preddy. It actually wasn't of the shooting.

[40:04] Michael: It was of a week before some

[40:06] Matt: other encounter he had with ice and now, and I hate this, that every time I see something like that, especially something that's immediately viral, I'm like, is this AI? Because there's been a ton of examples of that, even specifically around Alex Preddy. A lot of the imagery that's been floating around is AI generated. So it's like we have to be careful. But then I don't know if I said this to you maybe last week, but I feel like people are going to be. They're going to start to be hungry for real thoughts. And then I was trying to figure out what that meant because I thought, well, you know, AI does generate a lot of quality thoughts and perspectives and pieces of writing increasingly better. And I thought oh, it's just to hit me right now, it was like a real thought is flawed because real thoughts come from real people, and we want that. I mean, maybe it somehow in some sense goes back to our question of do we want the truth? And I think we do, but we also want real. And real is maybe sort of like a meta truth. And the truth is that we can't see the truth. The truth is beyond our comprehension, and the ultimate truth. Right. And so how do we interface with it? Well, we interface with it by interfacing with other people who are also trying to interface with it. And the real thought has things in it like self sabotage. It has things in it like shame. It has things in it like guilt, fear, and anger. These things can't necessarily be said to be so much true as they are just a reality. And those realities have bearings on the way that we interpret the world and the way that we interpret each other. And so I'm not sure that AI can ever give us that, because AI is not embodied or ensouled.

[42:20] Michael: Well, it kind of does a little bit. You know, I have to send you this new prompt I have if you want to do a deep dive on a topic. Basically, it will take you from beginner to expert in different levels. Anyways, it's really fascinating. I spent two hours on Sunday talking with Grok, but it was like, you know, things that it would say and I'd be like, is that true? And then I'd question it, and then it would. It would kind of self correct itself, you know, or explain better what what it was saying. But I think that's the part like you. You need to have that ability to. To speak and to hear yourself say something so that you might be like. I mean, you and I have experienced on this podcast so many times where I'll say something, I'm like, I don't know if I believe that or not.

[43:14] Matt: Yeah.

[43:15] Michael: But I didn't know that until I spok out. And it's like it became alive and it became something outside of myself that I could examine because there's so many things going on inside me that I believe that are not true or are not complete. And so. And I think that's the part we have to allow. That's why I've loved just your interaction with some people this week. Just saying things out loud and being able to then kind of sit with it for a second and then kind of think about it and then reformulate and then try again. It's like you're just constantly Putting something out there, taking it back in, reformulating it. Putting it back out there.

[44:03] Matt: Yeah. But that process is interrupted when the person on the other end of the line is AI because you receive what someone else says to you, and you reformulate your thoughts based upon what they said, but also based upon your relationship with them.

[44:22] Michael: That's true. Yeah.

[44:24] Matt: You have skin in the game. You have a stake in this. It matters. Your relationship with this person matters, and it matters a great deal. It's maybe one of the biggest things that matters in our lives is our social relationships. And so you're going to reformulate according to that. When AI gets cheeky with me or whatever, I think it's wrong about something. I don't think about how to tell it it's wrong, or I don't think about whether or not my understanding is limited. I'm just like, oh, you just said something wrong. And I tell it. I'm just like, that was wrong.

[44:58] Michael: I know.

[44:58] Matt: I love that. But do you see what I mean? I don't go through the same mental process. I jump straight to the. I'm gonna tell you what I think, and what I think is not filtered through relationship. And I think for us to get to know who we are and to learn in the deepest sense what we think has to be filtered through relationship.

[45:24] Michael: Yeah.

[45:27] Matt: And I mean, that's not to say that the AI is obviously. The AI is obviously effective, and some people do form what you might call relationships with it. You have heard stories of people falling in love with an AI bot or more tragically, committing suicide based upon the advice of an AI Chatbot. So it's like there's something very profoundly real here and dangerous, and we should probably be careful. But I guess my point is it isn't a substitute. No, it might be some kind of supplement, but it isn't a substitute.

[46:08] Michael: Yeah.

[46:09] Matt: For relationships.

[46:10] Michael: Well, I mean, it's interesting because we do try to substitute a lot of things. You know, you see this with marriage or just sex in general, you know, is like to have a relationship, some with someone, especially long term. It's like in a sexual relationship, it's like there's. There's things that are not just about sex. It's about, you know, how you interact with them and. And, you know, leading up to that and afterwards. And. And, you know, you learn that it's like, oh, wow, this is like a part of our relationship, but it's not our relationship. And. And we've kind of. We've kind of turned sex into a transactional Thing where it's actually something that's supposed to, you know, benefit and deepen a relationship. And when we. When we use it outside of that context, it's. It becomes really shallow. And you don't really. A lot of people don't see that for a long time and then. But just time and time again, I. I feel like I'm old enough now to have seen this play itself out so many times. I don't even. I don't see an argument against it is that, yeah, if you are just looking for sex, it's like you're going to be empty. You'll never be fulfilled. You'll never have a fulfilling relationship if you're just out for sex, you know?

[47:31] Matt: Right.

[47:32] Michael: And so there's something about that that, you know, what we really need is connection, you know, tact. When we're working with, dealing with. When we're in a relationship with them. Like, it's like, okay, hey, this person is clearly wrong right now, or something. It's like. It's like, but I love them and I want to continue this relationship. So maybe this is a time for grace and just to allow this conversation to kind of like fizzle for a second. Or. No, this is. I love this person so much that, hey, what you said really hurt me. And it's going to come into a confrontation and you just don't know what. You don't know what the right song. Every single time you just tell somebody off, it's like, sometimes it's great to be. It's good to be. I don't know. The word tactful keeps coming to mind. But, yeah, so I think that that's the. That's the hard thing with relationship. It's.

[48:36] Matt: Well, you said something that I want to respond to because it's kind of a mushy black hole in my mind that I'd like to try to put some definition to. And you said something about the right thing. I think we imagine that there's a right thing to say to people. If only we knew what it was or if we could learn what it was and then use that in every instance, then everything would be better. And, I mean, I think we're all wooed by that idea. That's why we want to be smarter or wiser. We think that that's going to be somehow effective because there's a right way for things to be and they should be that way. And I think that's true to some degree. But I also think that to be human is a creative act to Live is a creative act. And when I say that this is the mushy part in my head. I don't know exactly how to explain this, but it's something like. The creation of nature, however you want to think about that as by a designer or by an evolutionary process guided by the laws of nature. Either way, I think this is still true. We are co participants in the unfolding of reality, in the unfolding of what is true. We are creative that way. And so I think in a lot of scenarios, in a lot of ways, when we're in relationship with someone, there isn't the right thing to say. There's the thing that you create to say. In a way it's like a thing that's never been said before. I mean, isn't that why we love people so much? It's not because they say the right thing, it's because they say the them thing. It's like when you fall in love with somebody, you could be with them for years and years and ask them a question and be legitimately on the seat of your pants excited to hear the answer. Because it's not an answer that could be pre prescribed. It's an answer that comes from the heart of that individual who's interplaying with the co creation and unfolding of reality. And man, I don't want it to be that way. In a sense, in a sense, I hate that because I started really wrestling with the question of like, what does it mean to be a good man? What does it mean to do the right thing? Especially after my dad passed away, because he was kind of a North Star for me in that regard. And with him gone, I spent a lot of time thinking about that and a lot of time writing about it. And the conclusion I came to was pretty. Was not the one that I wanted. I wanted the idea of being a good man and doing the right thing to be quantifiable, codifiable, something that I could learn and wield with expertise. But the conclusion I came to was something different. And this is the. Maybe I can't quite say it's a conclusion, but what I'm suspecting is that it has more to do with taking the risk of saying what you really think, taking the risk of saying the true thing that you have to say. And it will always be a risk because if it can't be proven to be the right thing, it will be suspicious of being the wrong thing. Especially if it's a new thing. Am I making any sense here?

[52:18] Michael: A little bit. I kind of take A. I mean, because I want to kind of broaden your statement as far as, like, saying the right thing. Because sometimes I think saying the right thing is not saying anything at all. You know, it's like knowing when to. Knowing when to hold them and know when to fold them. But I think there's a. There's a. There's a wisdom. And I think I do this all the time. Is after a conversation, I'll walk away and it'll kind of go through my head as far as, like, oh, wow, I probably should have listened more at that point. You know, oh, I probably should have spoke up more at that point. And so the next conversation, I'm more aware and hopefully kind of trained to like, oh, this is the time I need to listen. Oh, this is the time I need to speak up. And so I think there is, like, there is a. I think there is a right action, and it's. But it's not. It's not a. It's not a prescribed thing. It's something that you have to be in the moment and. And see what. What is. What is, what is right and what is good for that moment. So, like, what does it mean to be a good man? It's like, depends the situation. There's so many variables on, you know, being a good man is not just opening a door for somebody.

[53:44] Matt: Well, there's kind of a fractal element to it. It's like you said, sometimes the right thing to say is nothing at all. I think, surely that must be true. But how many ways is there to say nothing at all?

[53:57] Michael: Oh, that's good. I like that.

[54:00] Matt: It's like, does David Bowie say something? Nothing at all. In a different way than Christopher Walken, surely. So when you choose to say say nothing at all, you. You kind of have to choose to do that in a. In a real way. And I want to go back to this idea that a real way is. Is in some ways a flawed way, because you're going to reveal something about yourself in your own silence, which you probably don't want to do. Maybe you do, I don't know. But it goes back to the famous. I talk about it all the time, that Christopher Walken quote where he says, you know, you get good enough at acting, you gotta stop there.

[54:44] Michael: You've gotta, like, use his voice at least.

[54:46] Matt: Oh, I can't. I can't even try. If you're good enough at acting, you realize that when you are doing a scene, you look to your left at the table and ask someone to pass the Salt. You might not be saying pass the salt. You might be saying I love you or I hate you, but the words are past the salt. So I think it's just the risk of the creative act of being yourself and being alive seems to explode on this fractal level. In that sense,

[55:23] Michael: yeah.

[55:24] Matt: We all know this is true on trivial levels. Right. It's like, what's the right thing to do if you want to be a good boyfriend? It's like, well, bring me flowers. You bring her flowers, and she's pissed. Why is she pissed? Well, you didn't do it in the right way. You didn't do it with the right tone, the right attitude. You only did it because I asked you. We know this. We know that the idea of trying to do things the right way is a lost cause, a lost battle at the outset. That isn't to say that there are not right and wrong.

[55:58] Michael: Yeah. I mean, it's like even. Just to even understand the actual question, like, why don't you bring me flowers? And it's like, pass the salt.

[56:07] Matt: Yeah.

[56:07] Michael: It's not about the flowers. Or maybe it is.

[56:10] Matt: It's probably only partly, you know.

[56:12] Michael: And so it's like. I think that's the part that we, you know, when we just. Well, and that's like, we have to pay attention.

[56:17] Matt: It's like a real question because it's like, wow, why? Why don't I.

[56:23] Michael: Yeah, well, I think that's the part, like, we need to pay attention and. And understand, like, what. What's the subtext? And I think that's part. Kind of goes. The. The first part of our conversation is. Is, you know, when we're taking in information, it's like, pay attention. It's like, what are they. What are they wanting me to think about this? And. And am I just listening to this because I want to hear it? Like, I want to hear Bitcoin's going to the moon. So just tell me that's.

[56:55] Matt: That's another indicator I've been using over the past number of years to decide whether or not I should take something seriously. If I come across a piece of content or a news story or whatever, and it's clear to me that they want me to think something in particular, my trust walls go up if you're trying to get me to think something. I'm not giving you access to that part of my brain. If you're trying to relay some information or even inspire me or something like that, I'm willing to give you access to parts of my brain. But I mean, even when I was telling that story about the five year old boy, it was in the context of a bunch of different stories that kept coming up on my feed. And it just felt to me like, you really, really want me to think something specific. And that's why I was glossing over it at first, because I was like, I guess I don't want to be manipulated. And it clearly felt manipulative. And then finally I was like, okay, I need to actually just go look and see what this is. And that validated it for me. Like, you wanted me to think something specific about a certain group of people, and you were using misleading but emotionally charged language and imagery to get me to think that. And I don't want to be beholden to. What is it? I don't want to be beholden to somebody else's agenda. I want to be. I want to protect my ability to think what I think. I don't want to think someone else's thoughts.

[58:43] Michael: God's so hard.

[58:51] Matt: And then again I'm like, but then do I actually have any of my own thoughts? I mean, this is kind of the Descartes problem, right? It's like, wait, pretty much everything I think, I think because someone else told it to me. I think I'm getting this right? That Descartes who said that I think therefore I am. Apparently his. The problem he was trying to solve when he arrived at that statement was he realized that everything that he knew he had was basically taking on authority from someone else.

[59:20] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[59:21] Matt: And he was trying to figure out what he knew of his own. Right. And the only thing he could come up with was, I think therefore I am. That's the only thing that I know, that I'm not taking on authority from someone else.

[59:36] Michael: Yeah. It's funny because then Hume comes along and like dissects that even more. It's like, what can you really know? It's like red here now. It's like you can't even. You can't even like get. But it was just like. Hume was really frustrating a little bit, but also brilliant. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's. There is certain things that you. You're you're kind of like whether it's ancestral or evolutionary or familial, societal. It's like you are built from the world around you. And it's like, yeah, how do you. How do you know what is real? I mean, I think that's hard. It's like, you know, you always hear the argument of. Well, that's because you grew up in a Christian, you know, family. That's why you believe that. Or you grew up in a Muslim family, so that's why you grew up

[60:27] Matt: with money, or you grew up in this continent or that continent, or you grew up with this kind of parent or one parent or two parents or.

[60:34] Michael: Yeah, so it's like, well, that's not. Not true. But it's like it's. It's a factor, but it trivializes it. Yeah, yeah, but. And it also does impact you. I mean, if you grew up with money, it's like there are certain things you did not experience. And if you grew up in Africa versus, you know, Venezuela or China or the U.S. it's like you're going to have different experiences and your framework for the world is going to look a little bit different. And so I think that's where the humility kind of comes in as far as we approach these subjects is maybe I'm not seeing as I should. So it's important for us to interact with people that are different and think differently than us, which, again, I love. I love it whenever people challenge my ideas or my thoughts, you know, because I just blame it on this, not my thought, really, because it was somebody else's thought. So I'm okay.

[61:38] Matt: Well, but I go back to the. Like, how many different ways are there to be silent? I don't think that the conundrum is like, are any of my thoughts my own? If I can use the analogy of a song? It's like, I used to have something that we called First Fridays, which was the first Friday of every month. We would have a potluck at my house, and all of my close friends and family, you included, would come over.

[62:18] Michael: Of course I was included. What are you talking?

[62:19] Matt: Yeah. And we would eat and talk and build a fire and play songs. My dad would bring his guitar, my brother would bring his guitar. I would play my mandolin or whatever, and we would sing songs. And so we would sing mostly cover songs because that's what people know. You know, we didn't play a bunch of original music because people don't know it. And you might say, well, you're just playing a song that's somebody else's song, that's not your song. Yeah, but that other person doesn't play it. Like, I play it. Like, there's value to hearing a cover, which is kind of an interesting thing. I also think that there's value to seeing the way that a thought is filtered through a particular brain, through a particular heart. I mean, the fact that I'm not original. So the thing that Descartes was struggling with, it's like, I don't really struggle with that idea because. A thought not being completely unique to me or original to me does not reduce its value by anything. Just like a song that I didn't write is no less worth playing than one that I did. A song is a song. Where's the value in a song? Which is a really interesting question that I like thinking about. It's like, is it the notes on the page? Is that even a representation of a song? Is it the words? It's like, we like songs for something far greater than the notes on the page or the words on the page. It's even far greater than the individual performer who sings it. It's something kind of transcendent in there. It's like, how many times is enough times to play a song if it's a good one? You probably would never tire of it.

[64:25] Michael: Well, it kind of comes back to your salt topic. Like, there's one thing I did about four or five, three or four years ago, maybe, as I was listening to different people's readings of T.S. eliot's Four Quartets. And it was amazing, the emphasis they put in certain places that I was like, that changes. That changes the meaning altogether. Yeah. And I was like, some of them, I was like, whoa, you just opened a door for me. Others, I was like, oh, that's wrong. Like, you missed that. And. And there's something about even someone replaying something they might like. Oh, there's this one guy, Rodney. He was a friend of ours a long time ago, but I went to lots of his shows just because we're friends and kind of like, I went to a lot of your shows. I experienced this with you, too.

[65:16] Matt: You only came because we were friends, not because you liked my music.

[65:19] Michael: Well, both. But you could just ask yourself, how many musicians do I go see? You're probably in the top. Like, you know, probably the. I probably. Yeah. It doesn't matter anyways. But the first time I experienced this was he sang this song. I've heard it, like, 10,000 times. And all of a sudden, one night, he was like, and I give you my heart. And he's like. He just rips it out of his soul.

[65:45] Matt: Yeah.

[65:46] Michael: And it's usually like, I give you my. It was like. It was, like, a lot more subdued, but for some reason this night, he just, like, rips it. It just surprised the hell out of me.

[65:53] Matt: Right.

[65:54] Michael: And all of a sudden, this song that I've Heard multiple times meant something completely different.

[66:01] Matt: It raises an interesting question, you know, because like, so like a. A larger social phenomena of that is like the Deadheads, the people that will go follow Grateful Dead. And you know, there's lots of bands that have this, like fish and. Yeah, fish. Like people will go to every single concert on the tour, which means they upend their entire life, you know, at great expense to go travel around and watch this concert over and over and over. And you think like, well, what is going on there? And you might think, well, it's because they're jam bands and they play it different every night. Well, I don't think that's an explanation. I think the better explanation is they play it the same every night, but every night is different. They wouldn't plan their lives around going to every concert if it was going to be different. Different would be unpat, unpredictable. They play at the same, but the expression is different

[67:02] Michael: in the crowd. How they react is different. There's so many variables.

[67:05] Matt: It's like, it's spiritual. That's what it is. I mean, they're going on a pilgrimage, right?

[67:09] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting.

[67:10] Matt: There's a spiritual aspect to that, just like there is, I think, with, with a lot of things. I mean, I almost think that, You know, I was just thinking, what does it mean for something to be infinite? And I think we generally think about infinity maybe necessarily as like an unquantifiable amount of time. But then I asked the question earlier, like, how many, how many times could you listen to a good song? And it's like, well, a really good song. Infinite.

[67:51] Michael: Totally.

[67:52] Matt: What does that mean? It just means it never gets old, it never dies. It reminds me of this quote by GK Chesterton where he's talking about how he goes, maybe the sun doesn't rise every morning and the daffodils bloom every day for any other reason than it delights the Lord. Just like a young toddler playing a very simple game screams, again, again. Do it again. Do it again. Maybe that's how good life is that we say, do it again. Or Chesterton says, God says, do it again every day. That's how delightful it is to him. And I wonder if we're just surrounded by infinities all around us and we are too. Self sabotaging to notice. Do you know what I mean? Like, I encounter this all the time in my own life where things are hard and I'm struggling and I might be kind of depressed or sad or whatever. And it's sort of that Peterson question. It's like, sit on the edge of your bed and ask yourself what this would be in the other direction. It's like, what could I do right now that would make me happy? And this is what's so strange to me. Sometimes I ask myself that question and then I don't do it.

[69:21] Michael: Oh yeah, totally.

[69:22] Matt: What is up with that?

[69:26] Michael: Yeah,

[69:30] Matt: I think we kind of revel in our own depravity. Sometimes we don't want to give it up. And maybe that's the same in our heart of hearts as it is observed on our screens when we're looking at what's going on in our country or the world. We don't want to give up our depravities, even when we have obvious answers. And it could be as simple as, you know, I'm in a bad state of mind and I ask myself, what should I do right now that would make me happy? And I'm standing here in this room surrounded by my instruments and my mind goes, you could pick up that guitar and play a song that you like. And I know it would work, but I'm also like, I'm kind of mad at it too. And so I don't do it. Yeah, it's. I'm. I'm a fool. I'm. I am a fool. A willing, voluntary, Self aware fool. Not always, but enough times that it's concerning.

[70:47] Michael: Yeah, it's funny because sometimes that's easier to pick it up in other people or especially our kids. What good is it that you're doing that you're only hurting yourself?

[71:02] Matt: Oh, you mean when you observe that in your kids?

[71:04] Michael: In my kids, yeah. Even just kind of point that out to them and they're just double down.

[71:09] Matt: Well, it's just to make the basic error that what you've discovered to be flawed in your own self is not flawed in the other person. You know, it's like that people want good things and they want the truth. That's more complicated than that.

[71:27] Michael: Yeah,

[71:32] Matt: Sometimes it's as simple as, well, they don't want to do what's good for them because they're just like surging with hormones and going through puberty. It's like logic and reason have no bearing on anything.

[71:47] Michael: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean, it's like even the things that you resort to as far as like duty or responsibility, like sometimes that's a very good urge and sometimes it's not. You know, there's certain parts like, you know, you have a duty and a responsibility to your family. Yes. You know what? And you also don't. It's like, whoa.

[72:12] Matt: What do you mean by that?

[72:15] Michael: Well, you know what? Sometimes like you need to not take on that responsibility to set it down

[72:20] Matt: like a duty to your family.

[72:22] Michael: Yeah. It's like, it's like you need to take care of yourself. Like that duty that was like, you know, that is noble and good. But you know what if you don't take care. Kind of some of the stuff that you've talked about that in the past. Yeah, yeah.

[72:35] Matt: That's just, it's funny, when you first said it, I was like, that doesn't sound right to me.

[72:39] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[72:41] Matt: But when it was explained to me at a very dire point in my life, it was explained to me as, this doesn't seem right to you, but you need to understand that if you don't give up that belief, you might die and then that's going to be way more wrong for the family that you're trying to serve.

[72:57] Michael: Actually, the duty to your family right now is for you to take care of yourself.

[73:00] Matt: Yeah.

[73:02] Michael: But then other time it's like, hey, you know what? You're self estached, you need to step up for your family right now.

[73:08] Matt: You need to deny yourself. But what's the rule?

[73:11] Michael: Yeah, but what's the rule?

[73:12] Matt: I mean, maybe this goes back to like there's, there's no, like there's no right. I mean there is a right. Exactly, but it's just not the same all the time. And it can't be prescribed.

[73:23] Michael: No, it's relational. It comes back to the whole thing is you don't know, it's, it's, it's. You're working out in real time like what is right. Because you can always. I've walked away from so many situations where like, like man, I that up or well, I don't know how what happened just there. But something happened and I felt like I was in tuned with the universe. In tuned with God, you know, and

[73:48] Matt: you're just like, I knew the right thing to say and I said it and it was like it really did turn out to be the right thing to say.

[73:53] Michael: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's fascinating which, you know, you come back to the stuff that we're talking about with media and all these narratives and, and I find that the people, like if there's not that sort of nuance in the conversation, I, I just don't. It's hard for me to listen to. It's like this is all, this is how it is. And this is how it always is. I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. It's. That's. It's a lot more nuanced to that, like. Like if everything's racist or if everything's white supremacist or everything's Nazi. It's like. It's like, whoa.

[74:38] Matt: It's the classic relationship red flag. You always say that. You always do this.

[74:42] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something I grew up with was my mom, specifically for my mom. I think my dad too. But, like, just learn to never say always or never. It's. It's like, well, sometimes this happens.

[74:55] Matt: Didn't we learn that from Fievel Goes West? Never say never.

[75:00] Michael: Never.

[75:01] Matt: There's the whole song.

[75:02] Michael: Oh, no.

[75:02] Matt: Do you remember that movie?

[75:04] Michael: I did not really get into that movie very much, but yeah.

[75:06] Matt: Okay.

[75:07] Michael: Yeah, that was more of like a

[75:08] Matt: older millennial thing that actually might legitimately be account on an account of our age gap, which is four years. Is that right? Which doesn't seem like very much right now, but four years in like late 80s, early 90s. Whole different aptitude and competence and interest set.

[75:28] Michael: That's the truth.

[75:29] Matt: Yeah.

[75:31] Michael: Yeah.

[75:32] Matt: I mean, four years in 1980s and early 90s relative to our birth years.

[75:39] Michael: Yeah, no, it's. It's a. I forgot where we're going with that now.

[75:46] Matt: No, that's okay. Just to never say never.

[75:49] Michael: I do want to bring this up. I'm wearing my sailboat cufflinks today. Yeah, well, I thought about this morning. I was like. I was like, where am I going today? I'm like, oh, to the shores. Sailboat for the shores sell off into the chaos and the unknown.

[76:06] Matt: Love it. Seems like a good place to in for tonight.

[76:11] Michael: Sounds good. Love it.

[76:14] Matt: Good one.

[76:15] Michael: Cheers. Yeah, cheers. Love you all.

[76:18] Matt: Keep thinking to the continuation of the conversation.

[76:20] Michael: True. Nice.