Value Stacks

[0:26] Michael: I was like,

[0:27] Matt: and

[0:27] Michael: we're about to do it. We're about to do it. We're gonna go. All right, here we go. To the shores.

[0:31] Matt: To the shores. Coming to you from a Thursday night.

[0:37] Michael: Yeah, I know. So anybody who was, like, just waiting for our podcast to come out on Wednesday night. Sorry.

[0:42] Matt: Sorry. Sorry, Mom.

[0:47] Michael: It's great.

[0:48] Matt: It is pretty strange. We've been doing this on Wednesday nights for so long that doing it on a Thursday night really feels different.

[0:54] Michael: Oh, yeah. It's

[0:55] Matt: just the name of the day that's different, but it's just like a change in the. The ritual of the week.

[1:00] Michael: Totally.

[1:02] Matt: So we had to change it up and drink a little Dalwini scotch tonight.

[1:07] Michael: Totally. It was Dave's birthday yesterday, and he was on the podcast a couple years ago.

[1:13] Matt: That's true.

[1:13] Michael: So happy birthday, Dave.

[1:14] Matt: Happy birthday. We're usually a bullet rye kind of program, but,

[1:21] Michael: yeah,

[1:21] Matt: we're classing it up for Thursday night.

[1:22] Michael: You know,

[1:23] Matt: it's ladies night.

[1:23] Michael: It's ladies

[1:24] Matt: night.

[1:25] Michael: The ladies here. But, oh, man. I think we had a hard time kind of coming up with something. We. I think we're in so many different directions right now, mentally, that it's hard to kind of grasp on a straw. So I'm kind of

[1:42] Matt: interested where

[1:42] Michael: we're going to go.

[1:43] Matt: Kind of feels true of the whole world right now. It's like, news cycle's insane.

[1:48] Michael: That's true.

[1:50] Matt: Yeah. I don't know where we want to go tonight.

[1:52] Michael: Yeah.

[1:56] Matt: Should we.

[1:58] Michael: I can. I can throw something out there.

[1:59] Matt: Throw something out there.

[2:00] Michael: All right. I am super optimistic.

[2:03] Matt: You have been saying that more and more, and I'm happy.

[2:07] Michael: Yeah.

[2:08] Matt: So I'd love to hear about it.

[2:11] Michael: Well,

[2:12] Matt: I mean, we need some optimism.

[2:13] Michael: We do. And I think there's. There's a. I think it's an optimism that. That understands there's going to be some hardship, and I think that's the part that I'm excited for. It's sort of like whenever. Like whenever I do something new, it usually takes me two or three months before I fully transition. It's like I spent a month and a half dying to whatever that was the season before, and then another month and a half, like, gearing up into whatever that is. Yeah. Even me just changing my outfit.

[2:47] Matt: You're gonna have to explain that. Or I can.

[2:50] Michael: You can. Maybe it'd be more interesting if you. If you explained.

[2:53] Matt: Well, Michael is sort of like a hobo. Steve Jobs.

[2:57] Michael: Hobo Steve. That's my point. I'll take that.

[3:00] Matt: Yeah. You know, if Steve Jobs was a barista instead of a tech guy and smoked cigarettes, so. But Michael, like Steve Jobs, at some point in his life decided that he was going to have an outfit. And that outfit was going to be white T shirts and jeans. The jeans got switched for shorts in the summers and they got hot, but that's what you wore every day, all the time. And then for some reason, which you're going to have to explain, you decided that the white tee needed to be upgraded. So you bought custom made button down shirts with cufflinks. And now that's your outfit. You've been wearing these for like what, a couple of months now?

[3:41] Michael: Yeah, yeah, A month and a half or something like that. Yeah, it

[3:46] Matt: was pretty classy.

[3:47] Michael: I really, I've really enjoyed it, honestly.

[3:49] Matt: Yeah,

[3:50] Michael: but it. Take it. I really started this summer when I started thinking about it and I. When we took a trip to Europe and I went to like that Taylor, like Row or whatever that all these famous tailors are on, I was looking for like the perfect white cufflink French cuff shirt. And I got so overwhelmed and just because like I didn't have Alison with me. Charlie, our friend Charlie was with me and he was doing a good job, but he's no Alison. And I just got overwhelmed and I think I bought a shirt just cuz like I just did it and ran away and then it just kind of stuck with me more and. And then I love cufflinks. And so I kind of like it was November when I was like, okay, I'm gonna buy three different shirts and then whichever one I like. So I researched it.

[4:37] Matt: You're going all in.

[4:38] Michael: And I went all in and I bought 10 and. And now I've got my. My new outfit is white French cuff shirts.

[4:45] Matt: You got a compliment tonight.

[4:46] Michael: Oh yeah. When

[4:47] Matt: we were out.

[4:48] Michael: I have been getting a lot of compliments, which, which is also interesting too. Cause I hate attention.

[4:54] Matt: Yeah.

[4:55] Michael: And so I, I knew. So I was like. Once I made the switch, I knew I'd have to put up with the attention for about two weeks and then it would become normal. And then I would just have to occasionally get the, you know, the attention thing. So. But again, it's like it's been three months since November and now I feel like I fully have transitioned the awkwardness of that first month. So that's just a small example of you kind of have to go through some tense tension in order to kind of come out into the new. Anytime you change anything, especially around people that know you, there's going to be tension because you're not what I thought you were.

[5:35] Matt: Yeah, that's interesting.

[5:38] Michael: I mean, think about it. Like, if, like, if you stop drinking alcohol and you're around your friends that are drinking alcohol, it's like, at first you're like a pariah, even though they're your friends. And then after maybe two or three weeks or a month or so, then it's just like, oh, yeah, he just doesn't drink anymore.

[5:53] Matt: Right.

[5:53] Michael: And so I think there's some of that that we're going through on a grander scale. And I think some people deal with that in different ways. It's like, no, we're moving into a new world, a different world. And it's. It's. Yes, it is scary. And. And it's also fraught with peril, too, you know, when change comes, and if people don't want to change, then that can also be a problem, you know, and then it's also scary because it's like, what change are people calling for? And I think right now we've seen so much tension from kind of. I don't want to say. I want to. I don't want to make this, like, a dichotomy between, like, right and left or anything like that, but kind of different worldviews are kind of competing right now. And. And it's hard to understand, like, you know, if you, you know, how to kind of move into this new world of AI with, you know, you know, what are you talking about politically or economically or

[6:58] Matt: religiously?

[6:58] Michael: Religiously. And, you know, it's something that you've been talking about a lot in this podcast or last four episodes, really is like, what's your highest. What's your. What's the highest thing that sits on your value stack and how important that is? And I think when you get into times of turmoil, I think that's when that gets challenged the most is like, do you have what. Whatever is on the highest. On your value stack. Is it enough?

[7:23] Matt: Is it high enough? Is

[7:24] Michael: it high enough? So I think that's. It's good. I think these things. I think that's good to be challenged, and I feel like that's something I go through every. Every two years, really. It's like my hierarchy of my value stack gets challenged, and every time it's. It's always good, even though it's like, there's a little bit of turmoil in there with it.

[7:48] Matt: When you say that your Hierarchy is challenged. Is that like, wait, okay, what's really in the. In the highest place in my value stack? Totally. And are my values ordered according to that?

[8:01] Michael: Exactly. Yeah.

[8:02] Matt: Is that kind of like, you know, kind of spring cleaning for the. For existentialists?

[8:12] Michael: That's a great way to put it. I love that. Yeah.

[8:14] Matt: You know, you're like, is this room arranged? Right. Should we move the couch over here?

[8:21] Michael: Yeah,

[8:22] Matt: yeah,

[8:22] Michael: yeah. And you move it around and you might end up right back where you were. But you actually needed to do that to, like, be able to. The

[8:29] Matt: exercise.

[8:30] Michael: Oh, no, I actually like it this way. Or that actually is the highest. And then a lot of times, like, things will fall away too. Like, I always think of it this way is, you know, kindergarten Jesus is not going to serve a fifth grader. You know, fifth grade Jesus is not going to serve a senior. It's just sort of like you have this idea of the world and it will serve you at certain points in your life if you don't. If you don't upgrade.

[8:55] Matt: Update it.

[8:56] Michael: Yeah, update it. Then you're. You're actually going to be, I don't know, not held back. But.

[9:01] Matt: So what you're saying is that you have to go out to the shores. Oh, dude. Just bring it around. Yes, yes. As the island of my ignorance expands, so do the shore. Wait, I got.

[9:13] Michael: The island of knowledge expands, so does the shores of my ignorance.

[9:16] Matt: Yeah. Wonder if we should, like, redo the intro music and add that quote in there.

[9:26] Michael: I like that.

[9:26] Matt: Maybe I'll play with that.

[9:29] Michael: Such a great intro. I really love it. I can listen to it 9,000 times.

[9:32] Matt: The whole rest of the song is great, too. It's a banger.

[9:37] Michael: Matt wrote the song.

[9:38] Matt: I did. Yes. You said something about seeing. It's like, is your value stack ordered properly? Is the right thing at the top? Sometimes you need to take it down and rearrange it to figure that out and not just take it for granted. It does seem like I've been pondering a lot about how we got into a place in our culture where it really feels like we're not seeing the same things as other people, despite the fact that we're all kind of seeing the same things and leaving the algorithm problem kind of aside for a moment. We've talked about this around this a lot on this podcast, but it still seems to baffle me and elude me how it is and why it is that we see different things. We all watch the same clips, whether it's George, Floyd or Renee Good or Alex Pretti. I mean, this has been in the news a lot lately, right? Or

[10:38] Michael: Charlie Kirk.

[10:39] Matt: Charlie Kirk. We all watch the same clips, and we seem to be all seeing something different. And to. And to all of us, it looks obvious. What I think I'm seeing is obvious. What? Somebody who sees something totally different. They also think that what they're saying is obvious. What is this? And I think it has something to do with. Something to do with what you were saying about how do we figure out if our values are ordered properly and the right thing is in the highest place? Well, sometimes you have to take it apart to be able to see it. And maybe it's that we've all become so sure of what we think we know we're not willing to take it apart because to take it apart is dangerous. I mean, it is your system of values, after all. I think that our systems of values are what guide our perceptions. What we see is defined by our values. I think we think that when you look at something, the value of it is transmitted to you. You're perceiving a thing's value. I don't think that's the case. I think it's that my values precede my perception of what I'm looking at.

[11:55] Michael: Oh, gotcha. Yeah.

[11:56] Matt: And so if you and I have a very fundamentally different set of values, we are literally going to perceive the same thing differently. And I think it's. I think there's something really simple in that, which is that you see what you look for, not what is there. There's that great example of the gorilla study where these researchers got. They filmed people throwing balls back and forth. Like, not an actual game. It

[12:29] Michael: was a basketball.

[12:30] Matt: It was a basketball.

[12:31] Michael: Yeah.

[12:32] Matt: So there's two teams. There's like the red team and the green team, and they're throwing the basketball back and forth, and they bring these. And they say, watch this film. And your job is to identify how many times the green team catches the ball. And so they sit there and they watch the video. And then at the end they go, well, 13. They go, okay, what did you think about the gorilla? And most people are like, what are you talking about? They're like, in the middle of a video, a man in a gorilla outfit walks front and center into the screen, bangs his chest, and then walks off. And the majority of the people who watched, they didn't see it because they were too busy looking for what they were looking for. And I think that our perceptions are like that all the time. We see what we look for. We don't see what's there in a broad sense. It's, you know, you're not like the Terminator scanning an environment and everything that comes onto the screen of your field of view gets identified and labeled.

[13:32] Michael: Even in that, it's like, there's a value thing in that too, is like, what is that? AI Terminator putting value on the things it's seeing too.

[13:41] Matt: It's no different for that. Right. And it can't

[13:44] Michael: even dealing with AI stuff that it

[13:46] Matt: can't identify. I mean, not that I know anything about the technology of the Terminator, but presumably it's a computer, so it can't identify anything it doesn't previously know something about. Right. Although I would say I've heard some anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Like, apparently Elon said that they didn't teach Tesla FSD how to drive. Or maybe they said they didn't teach it how to read it, just figured it out. But, you know, I think there really is. I don't want to say it's a problem. I mean, I don't know that it could be any other way. You see what you look for. I mean, this is the fundamental concept of seeking. You shall find, knock, and the door will be opened. It's like. It's sort of a. It's almost like a supernatural, like, promise, but also kind of a warning.

[14:44] Michael: Yeah.

[14:45] Matt: It's like, well, stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back. You know, what are you. What is it that you're looking to see? What do you want to see? I mean, if that's the case, it's like, it's not only we see what we look for, we see what we want to look for. So we have to really think, what is it that I want? And this goes back to the value stack. It's like, what's it the highest. What is it that I want the most? What is it that is of highest value? And that's going to guide all your perceptions.

[15:20] Michael: Totally. Well, maybe. Maybe it'd be helpful. I'm just gonna ask this of you is like.

[15:28] Matt: Yeah.

[15:28] Michael: To kind of explain what your value stack is, because that can kind of be. That's a little bit vague. I know what you're talking about because you and I have talked about this stuff a lot. Well,

[15:38] Matt: I find this stuff is very hard to talk about because. Yeah. Like, what is a value? What do you mean by that? What does a value stack? What is the. There are things that can only be approached via metaphor, and I think this is kind of one of them. You know, you might call it your mission statement. It's like if you. If you're running an organization, there's all kinds of things that need to get done, right? To run the organization, it's like, from the person who comes in late at night to clean cleanup, to the people filing papers, the people maintaining computers, to the stuff that's core to the function of your business. And you can't really make any decisions about what should be done without saying, well, here's the grand mission of our company. It's a guiding light, right? What is the guiding light? Well, that's a value. And that value has to be high enough and broad enough that it allows the organization to move. But I would say, you know, what is my value? Stack as it comes to, Let's just say, social issues. Because that's where we, you know, that's. We're all screaming about it right now, right? We're all angry with each other about social issues right now. I mean, I would appeal to the Declaration of Independence. All men are created equal in the image of God, Certain unalienable rights. I mean, that's the. As I see it, that is kind of the highest thing in the highest place for us as a culture. And everything's ordered according to that. Where do you get principles of equality? Well, it's from that mission statement that says, we start with this as the premise, and the downstream consequences of that are, hey, how about no kings? All men are created equal. No kings. Checks and balances of the different branches of our government, the entire justice system that evolved out of that, where justice is blind. There's so many things that are. Like, once you establish the highest ideal, you can start to decide what is good and bad. Because now you have a definition of good and bad. Good is what moves towards that ideal, and bad is what moves away from it. And you live long enough within that set of values that they don't necessarily need to be explicitly appealed to anymore. We all get to a point where we say, well, no, it's just these things are obvious. And my contention is that they're not obvious. They. I mean, you certainly look around at other cultures and you see completely different behaviors. That's because they started with a different premise. They have a different stack of values. Does that answer your question?

[18:54] Michael: It does a little bit. I think it's still. It's still vague, like. And, you know.

[19:01] Matt: Well, in a sense, I think it has to be vague.

[19:02] Michael: Well, yeah, but I mean, I think. No, I do. I do agree with you. Well, I. For me, I've said this many times on the podcast, like, I have two axioms that I cannot break. And to me, that's. That's sort of like how my worldview is shaped. It's like in just a real quick recap is sort of like. Like there is an objective reality and I have a subjective experience of it and viewpoint. That means I just. I don't see all things as they should be, as they are. And I'm. I'm in a continual process of. Of that, but there is something objectively to be known. And then the second is like, I know who I am and also don't know who I am. And that paradox is always true at all times, in all places.

[19:55] Matt: It kind of seems almost like one axiom. Both of those. The second is just turning it internal.

[20:02] Michael: Yeah.

[20:02] Matt: On yourself.

[20:03] Michael: Well, and outward, too, because it's the same thing with you. It's like, I know you met, but also don't know you.

[20:08] Matt: Yeah.

[20:08] Michael: And so I think there's this whole. I think what makes them consistent between the two is that there's an omission to insufficiency, but there's admittance of solidarity or something solid there.

[20:23] Matt: Well, I think it's a great example of how you might derive other values from that axiom, from that premise. Well, such as humility. Why is. I mean, it's not obvious that humility is just simply about a virtue or good. It is embedded. It's embedded with the idea that I am not God. I do not see all things completely. I mean, to your. In your words, I have a subjective experience of something objective which I cannot fully know. And so it would be good to be humble in that situation, because being arrogant means that I'm operating with incomplete information and I'm gonna. Something

[21:05] Michael: and I'm acting as if I. If. As if I have complete information. Right. Yeah.

[21:09] Matt: So you're. You're, you're lying. You're living out a lie, right?

[21:13] Michael: Yeah.

[21:14] Matt: And I don't, you know, I don't know if this is true, but Peterson says nobody ever gets away with anything. Ever.

[21:22] Michael: Yeah. Older again. I definitely believe that.

[21:24] Matt: Yeah. As. Over the last couple of weeks, Minnesota has been in the news like crazy. And I talked about it last week, I think, where people are just posting all of these just Instagram story after story after story of all of these news headlines, and you start going and looking into them, and they're almost never what they're presented to be. They're always something different. The facts of the matter always turn out to be something different. And I had this feeling like we're all so up in arms about something, going out and protesting something that is at least to some degree, just a lie. It just doesn't exist. It only exists because we're making it exist by posting about it over and over and over. I just had this feeling. I was like, I just want to some amount of that to stop. I want sanity. And I had this image of, you know, you're holding on to something so tightly, yelling and screaming, and then you could just open your hand and let it go. There's this great Seinfeld bit about. He's like. He's like, I hate when they. I'm at the movies and one time they said, please clean up after yourself when you're done. And he's like, look, I got in my car, I drove here, I paid the 1250, I paid the $33 for the Coke and the popcorn or whatever. I'm gonna watch the movie and when I'm done, I'm gonna open my hand, just. It's going on the floor. But I had this thought that what's interesting is that a lie only exists as long as you hold on to it, because a lie doesn't exist.

[23:17] Michael: Oh, gotcha.

[23:18] Matt: And so if you let go of it, it ceases to exist. And the truth isn't like that. The truth exists whether you hold onto it or not.

[23:28] Michael: Sorry, you got me all worked.

[23:29] Matt: You don't have to hold the truth, you just have to let it hold you. Baby,

[23:33] Michael: sounds like your next song.

[23:34] Matt: Yeah, but I don't know. I felt sad for us as people. Like we could just let go of the lies. But I think we started to build our own value stacks on them. And then you, you know, you can't let it go once you've gone far enough because it's going to destroy a lot of reality.

[23:59] Michael: Well, I think that's

[24:00] Matt: a lot of what you perceive as reality.

[24:02] Michael: It's really hard, I think, because it's like you either experience a lot of small deaths along the way or you get a really. Like, I had. I've had at least one. No, one big one. And it's like whenever your world falls apart and you're like, what is real?

[24:20] Matt: Yeah,

[24:22] Michael: like, that's devastating. And I think that's. That's a. That's a really. I mean, I think that's why in Christianity there's like, the whole idea of, like, forgiveness and confessing is making that a practice, is that you experience small deaths so that you don't have to experience like the big deaths, you know. And I think a lot of it we're not willing to make those concessions. But it's hard because too and something that you and I have struggled with specifically since like 2020, but pretty much ever since we've known each other is, you know, like what is real. Like that's something that is at the fundamental part of most of our discussions. And it's like we, we've really like, like it's kind of come to the conclusion that's why we name this shores of ignorance is like man, it's like there is something to be known. But of what I am ignorant and what I know, the ignorance part is me is way larger than the, than the part that knows and also that you know,

[25:28] Matt: or, or maybe it's that I, the entirety of who I am is way smaller than what there is to be known.

[25:38] Michael: Yeah. So I think it's just like, I think that's a hard thing too because when I look at like a lot of the things that are on a lot of discussions that are happening is so many people think that they know what is happening and part of that's actually okay and good. Like you, you need to have a, an opinion or a way of seeing. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think where it goes wrong is whenever that opinion or the way that you see something becomes immaleable, like it's not able to change. And it's hard because the reality of it is they look the same. Like you hold a false belief and you hold a true belief. They actually kind of look the same

[26:26] Matt: to you

[26:27] Michael: to. Yeah. To you. Yeah.

[26:29] Matt: Yeah.

[26:29] Michael: Depending on where. Because like someone can have a false belief and have the, the certainty and the logical consistency of their worldview intact and. But at some point, kind of like your, your What Peterson said is like, was it the lies never win or something like that or

[26:54] Matt: no one ever gets away with anything.

[26:55] Michael: No one ever gets with anything. And I think that's the thing is like that's why we have to be careful about what we think and what we believe. And our value stack is because you're not going to get away with it. And it's like you might be the. And again when I say you and I think I put myself in the same category. You might be the Stalin or the Hitler or the Mao that believes something and you're sitting on the stack of dead bodies like you might be that person, I might be that person. And that's Something scary.

[27:25] Matt: Well, the problem, though, is that you can't see that without the necessary premise. I mean, I think that you get. We talk about Solzhenitsyn all the time, saying that the line between good and evil runs down the heart of every man. That is an idea that is downstream of your axiom, in a sense. Or it's also. It is the arrogant one who thinks they know. I mean, I love this definition of evil, which is the spirit who considers his knowledge complete. That's why Lucifer is considered the intellect. He thinks he knows better than God. So from trying to figure out how to put this together, I don't think that. I don't think we learned our lesson from Solzhen and Itsyn. I don't think that the broader culture believes that, Believes that we are all capable of finding ourselves on top of a stack of dead bodies. I think the modern secular American or Westerner maybe doesn't really think that they're capable of doing something like that. And that's a pretty core thing to need to admit. I mean, there's a lot of downstream values that come from humility as well. And if you don't have that, if you don't have, wait, I need to be careful. Because every act of evil was committed by somebody who believed they were doing something good. They didn't see, presumably, that their set of beliefs have become perverse. In their mind, they were doing something good. Thanos thought he was doing something good. By. It's really funny. Somebody was saying, if Thanos really snapped his fingers and 50% of the organisms in the universe died, that means the 50 remaining had only half their gut biome left. And we're going to spend the next two weeks absolutely destroying their bathrooms.

[29:53] Michael: That's great.

[29:55] Matt: And I laughed at that. And then I just thought, oh, man, we're so naive. We don't even really know what we are. You think you know what you are. I mean, it's kind of like the. It's like the classic. Like, if I had the ability to be invisible, would that, like, apply to things that I touched as well? How'd that work with my clothes? Would I have to be naked? You know, it's like that. But, you know, I also read that. I was reading this article about this research that was being done on breast milk, and apparently.

[30:27] Michael: Sorry, you just jumped to breast milk? I

[30:28] Matt: did. Well, it has to do with gut bios, because apparently mother's breast milk not only changes the makeup of its contents depending on the time of the day, but it also responds to the baby's saliva and will change to give certain, like, in response to the baby being sick. It also, for the first, I don't know how long, month or something, contains stuff in it that the baby can't actually do anything with. And it's actually meant to feed the gut biome.

[31:00] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[31:02] Matt: And your gut biome is made up of things that have different DNA than you. Your mitochondria inside your cells have different DNA than you. Like, the whole concept of you just completely blows my mind. It's like, what are you talking about? Who are you referring to? Yeah, but I think it's. I mean, obviously the Soviet Union lost track of Solzhenitsyn's point. I always have such a hard time saying his name. Solzhenitsyn's point of the Russian accent. And my understanding is that Solzhenitsyn participated in a lot of it and then woke up and found himself on the stack of dead bodies and was like, what did we do? And wrote the Gulag Archipelago to try to figure that out. And my understanding is that single book had a massive hand in ending all of that. But he told us. What's so interesting is that wasn't that long ago. My dad remembered him coming to speak at his camp.

[32:08] Michael: Oh, wow.

[32:08] Matt: At his summer camp when he was in high school.

[32:11] Michael: Wow, that's crazy.

[32:12] Matt: Yeah. So it wasn't that long ago. And Solzhenitsyn spends all this time reading this whole book. We didn't learn the lesson. We didn't even teach the lesson. They didn't even teach us in school about the

[32:27] Michael: Gulag

[32:27] Matt: Gulags. I always grew up thinking that the Nazi concentration camps were the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the world. And after those, more recent than those, more people were in concentration camps in the Soviet Union.

[32:45] Michael: Yeah.

[32:46] Matt: After that, more people died in the 60s in China. I mean, we really need to try to learn this lesson that we are all capable.

[32:57] Michael: I think that probably is one. Like, I kind of. Again, it comes in state. It's like, do I feel like I understand that? But do I understand that? Like, I know in myself, I don't understand it the way that it should be understood. But at the same time, if. If someone doesn't see that in them, then that's. I think that's even more scarier than somebody who sees it and acts on it.

[33:24] Matt: You think it's scarier when someone doesn't see it in themselves than someone who sees it and acts on it? Well, I don't think that you see it and act on it. I think the people who act on it don't see it. I think the people who act on it think that they are not capable of it. And they have. They have

[33:41] Michael: thought thing it might

[33:42] Matt: perverted their value system that they are not perceiving it the same way we are perceiving it.

[33:50] Michael: Well, I guess I'm thinking of, you know, whenever, like somebody sees. Oh, shoot. Actually maybe I'm not saying that correctly then.

[34:04] Matt: I mean, I guess sadism, sadism is a thing. Some people really do derive pleasure from watching people experience pain. And that would maybe be a different category.

[34:16] Michael: Yeah, I have too many lines crossed in this one.

[34:24] Matt: Well, I was trying to remember what we kind of diverted from something I wanted to go back to, but now I'm struggling to remember what it was. Oh, we were just talking about. I think really we're talking about belief. Like we are. We're all looking at things and thinking we're seeing reality and that that's obvious and holding on to things. Oh, you were saying, you know, that a fabrication and a truth look can look very similar. It's hard to tell. I think that you can tell. I mean, I think you can develop a sort of sniff test ability to be like, something's off about this. I don't know what it is. You know, last week I think I was talking about how I've kind of gained a bit of a spidey sense for like, I have a feeling that what you're showing me is, in order, is intended to manipulate my feelings. And in that case it's unlikely to be true. But I wanted to bring up something that Brett Weinstein talks about this, about how when you come to believe something, you know, and I'm going to kind of appeal back to our conversation last week about Descartes and his realization that almost everything he knew he was taking on authority. He didn't really know anything firsthand. That's kind of haunted me the last week. I'm like, what do I know firsthand? So. But it's, you know, it's necessary to develop beliefs about things. I mean, I have to believe something about American politics. I can't check it all. You know, I can't check what ICE is doing and I can't check what the protesters are doing. I can't even really check what Donald Trump is doing or Joe Biden is doing. It's like I have to develop a system of belief around that. What am I willing to believe and what am I not willing to believe? Brett says when you develop a belief about something, you should note that and then ask yourself, what would have to be different for me to cease believing this and note that as well.

[36:31] Michael: Yeah,

[36:32] Matt: so that, you know, I mean, back to our original premises, like, you see what you look for. Okay. I'm going to notice that I should be looking for a change in this criteria because it is supporting this belief, which is supporting a bunch of other beliefs. And if that's going to change, if I'm willing, I mean, one, it's like it's setting out an intention to say, I'm willing to not believe this. And here's the criteria by which I would be willing to change my mind. And I'll be on the lookout for that. So I think that's really important. But I think what. I mean, not a lot of people do that. I guess it's hard.

[37:12] Michael: It seems so systematic.

[37:13] Matt: Yeah.

[37:14] Michael: And I don't think a lot of us, like, operate in that worldview. Like, maybe there's a little bit. Maybe there's a different part of that. Like, you know, it's enough for us to just be in the world and around people and to have people like us and to feel a sense of community and to kind of take on the beliefs of those around us. I mean, I think that's, there's. There's a natural thing in that, both good and bad. I mean, I think kids do that is like, you know, parents raise their kids up. Like, a lot of times kids will take on their beliefs to some degree, and at some point they have to challenge it. And so I think there's a healthy, healthy part of that. But, you know, I think then, like, when it's challenged, that's the. I think that's where. When it's challenged for the first time, I think that's where people either retreat or like, walk through that and, and kind of grow a little bit. Does that make sense?

[38:19] Matt: Say it. Say it again.

[38:20] Michael: Well, it's like, you know, so. So like you have like a friend group or, or as a. As a kid, it's like you have this sort of safety net of values that are around you and are supported by those around you. And so it's easy to kind of stay within that safety net. You know, I'm not saying whether the values are good or bad, but it's relationship. It's like your kids have a relationship with you and that you've provided this sort of safe haven of a space based on a certain value system. And obviously, I'm not talking about Bad situations. And then at some point, you start to question that. It's like you can either step away and not question it, or you can lean into it. And I think that's part of growing up is it's almost required of you to. To. To question the system that you grew up in. And I think as. As we get older, we become less. More reluctant to actually challenge the system that we're in. You know, whether it be a friend group or a political view or religious view, because it. It becomes too hard. It's almost like. I mean, biologically, it's. It's ingrained in teenagers to reject their family because it's healthy. It's good. It's to. To move away. It's because they're supposed to move out.

[39:41] Matt: Yeah. In the grand scheme of things, the arc of a lifetime, you should differentiate and then reintegrate.

[39:56] Michael: I wonder if that has to do with, like, little deaths, too. It's like, you have to, like, there's some big moments of that, but then also in your life, like, there's a part that you need differentiate and then reintegrate. Like, there's a lot of, like, little parts of that, and if you don't do that along the way.

[40:13] Matt: Well, isn't that kind of what we were talking about with the idea of when you notice a belief, you note what would have to change for that belief to be altered? I mean, that's sort of like saying, I'm willing to die little deaths. I'm willing for my beliefs to be updated. I'm willing to let go of what turns out to not be true. Because I think it's much more functional to operate on what's true. It might be much more. It might be more expedient to hold on to things that are not true, but ultimately that will lead to demise.

[40:51] Michael: I even think about. It's not even just that the thing that you believed was not true. It's just that what you believed was too. Was too immature for where you are right now.

[41:02] Matt: Could be.

[41:02] Michael: And you have to, like, you have to update that to a more mature level. And if. Because if you stay. If you stay as, like, a kindergartener and you can't, like, work out the, you know, the differences between people. You know, it's like if you have a difference with somebody, it's like, if you can't work that out, like, that's not going to serve you very well. You know, it's like. But, you know, there's just the part that you have to mature and grow and. And I feel like at some point, sometimes we all want to just stop. Like, I just. I'm just tired of growing. I'm tired of being challenged. I wonder if that's why

[41:41] Matt: people tend to become more conservative the older they get. At some point, you're like, guys, can we just not. Can we just. Let's just stay here, but stay the same.

[41:54] Michael: Which has its benefits, but it also has its drawbacks. That's why the youth, the progressiveness of the youth, like, helps us keep things fresh.

[42:02] Matt: Yeah.

[42:03] Michael: And that push and pull is really healthy. Again, conservative, I think, in what you're saying, is not political conservatism. It's more of, like, life conservatism. It's like, I just kind of like my world the way it is.

[42:19] Matt: I've established

[42:20] Michael: a

[42:20] Matt: routine and a schedule that's working well. You know, even you and I, you know, just every Wednesday night, throw us off. And I'm like,

[42:27] Michael: oh, yeah,

[42:28] Matt: I'm out of sorts.

[42:29] Michael: Like, I got tell myself, okay, grab your podcast back. It's not Wednesday, but it's Thursday. And then I kept thinking, is it Wednesday because I have my podcast back. Yeah, but it's also. There's. I mean, there's something healthy about that conservatism of, like, you and I doing this every single week on Wednesday. It's like there's a. There's a stability in that.

[42:49] Matt: Right.

[42:49] Michael: And that's good and healthy, but also can be stifling in creativity and. Just not having any newness brought into your life. So I think it's good for us to ever so do this on Thursday.

[43:05] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I guess it should be said that the old need the young, and the young need the old. The conservative needs the liberal, and the liberal needs the conservative. When you. We need to be in that. Need to be in tension. I need to be alive. Is to be intention. Intention between birth and death. Intention, you know, between who we are and who we could be. Intention between who we used to be and who we are. I woke up, I think, this morning, and I've been for a while. I've pinched it before. I've been doing this practice where an hour before bed, I turn my phone off. No electronics. An hour before bed. And then I do also an hour after I wake up. And I usually just spend that time doing some journaling, just really sitting and thinking. And this thought this morning, I was like, gosh, I'm just so full of. Of questions. It feels so troublesome. It feels so kind of turbulent. My mind is turbulent with questions. Things that I don't know. There's so many things that I don't know. I have so many questions about, like what it means to pers. These are my current questions. Like, what does it mean to actually even perceive something? What does it mean to be a you? What does it. What does it mean to live in a world where increasingly even what I see with my own eyes and here with my own ears, I can't even trust that that was. Had any bearing in reality? And I was just like. I was kind of lamenting it a little bit. It was like, can the questions just calm down? Can the turbulence of my mind just calm down? But then I had this feeling too, of like, no, that's what it is to be alive. It is to be small in a world that is churning. I mean, the sun rises, heats everything up, everything's churning. Waters are moving. You're a part of that. To be alive is to be insufficient to know insufficiently. Your knowledge is insufficient. Your body is insufficient. And yet with all of that, we do all these incredible things. Being alive is temporary. So enjoy it. Enjoy the troubled waters, because those are the only kind of waters that give the human experience its shape. So I was. I was just. Moment where I was just like. I was kind of equally troubled and comforted at the same time. You know, maybe it's one of these paradoxes.

[45:48] Michael: Yeah.

[45:48] Matt: Where, You know, you don't. You don't perceive comfort without trouble, and you almost don't perceive the trouble without the comfort. I don't know. Two sides of one coin.

[46:05] Michael: I can't even tell you. Like, as you were talking about all this stuff, my brain just went into like 10, 000 different places.

[46:13] Matt: That's a lot of places.

[46:14] Michael: It really was. No, there's something like comforting and disheartening and disjointing in like, kind of what you said. And I think that's. I think that's the part that sometimes we want to stifle that paradox, that tension. And it's when in one way to stifle that tension or there's. There's really two ways. I don't think there's any other two ways about it. Well, maybe three, you know. You know, one way to stifle or to respond to that tension is to just let go and, and, and just be crazy. You know, like, you just. He just almost like

[46:55] Matt: nihilistic, like,

[46:56] Michael: just goes, yeah, you just go. And. And there's a nihilistic aspect to it. And, and the other is the kind of like batten down the hatches and

[47:07] Matt: hide.

[47:07] Michael: Hide and claim your territory. Build your fences, protect and you're vigilant. And the other is just apathy. Like just nothing. Like you just. You just stop. Well,

[47:21] Matt: I think you're missing one. Like, to stick with the wind analogy, you could also like, build a kite.

[47:28] Michael: Well, I think,

[47:29] Matt: I mean like harness it.

[47:30] Michael: Well, I think that's, that's. That's more of like

[47:32] Matt: build a sail. Build a sailboat.

[47:34] Michael: Well, that's. I think there's things. More of the three ways that people can react against it. Like, the other part is. Is like, oh, wow, I am just a part of this. You know, how do I become a part of this tension and embracing it? Like, I think that's. Yeah, maybe that's the fourth way. Yeah, I was just thinking more like here's a. Like, you know, it's like one is go crazy. The other is like to build a fortress. And the other is just completely like numb, you know, and then. But the. The way to. I think, anyways, like, kind of what you were saying is to like, accept it. Accept the tension, you know,

[48:09] Matt: harness it

[48:09] Michael: and then harness it. Yeah,

[48:11] Matt: yeah.

[48:11] Michael: And also. And also

[48:12] Matt: the energy is.

[48:13] Michael: And also bow down before it. It's like you harness it, but you also, like, have to admit that it's more than whatever you could imagine or expect.

[48:24] Matt: I don't know how to weave this in, but

[48:26] Michael: do it.

[48:26] Matt: It's been stuck in my head since a little bit ago, I think when I was talking about, you know, the. The terrifying reality that it's becoming increasingly hard to tell what's been generated by AI and what hasn't. I was watching this. What was it? It was like a. Like a kind of like a film school student analysis of some filmmaking techn. Techniques or something. And he introduced me to this idea of what's called indexicality. And it's the idea that. So when you're watching Jurassic park, the first thing you see is not a dinosaur. You see a dinosaur print in the mud. I think that's true of that film. I'm just saying, for example. But that print in the mud of the dinosaur's foot is an index of the dinosaur's foot. It is an appropriate proxy for the dinosaur foot. Analog film photography has an indexicality to it. What I'm looking at could not exist if the actual light that was there when the subject was standing in that place didn't hit the actual film itself. There's like a real one to one connection between the animal's Foot in the print, in the mud. Just like there's a one to one connection between the light that exposed the film in the camera and the light that's now revealing the print to me, there's a relationship there. Once we get into digital photography, there's no more indexicality because every pixel in that image can be edited individually. And when you think about cgi, there's no indexicality between something that doesn't exist and the light showing me that it exists. As I'm watching Avengers Ultimatum with Thanos, and I just keep thinking about this idea. There's something sort of profoundly spooky about it. It's like we are increasingly looking at things that don't exist. I mean, CGI is one example, but an image or a video that's generated by AI, it also doesn't exist. Meaning there was no real thing that exists which it is representing. It is entirely a figment of our imagination, which is now being projected at us through flashing pixels of light. And that's. I don't know. I find that spooky. Are you following what I'm.

[51:16] Michael: I'm trying to. I'm trying to. I'm. I mean, I feel like there's something that you're equating with the. The real life footprint that was actually made in real life, and then that being communicated all the way across the film and into your eye, into your brain or whatever, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I can go all the way there because it's like each, each. Anytime you bring another medium into interpretation, it distorts it. You know, whether, like, if we watch a movie that's already a distortion of reality just in the. The act of watching a movie, it doesn't matter how closely it represents reality. It's like it's already a distortion, but it's like. But that's not really the point of the movie. It's more of like, what is it communicating? You know, and so I think that's the part that I'm not following all the way, because it's like. It's like what it's saying versus how it's saying or. Or the, the medium of it saying.

[52:29] Matt: Well, it's not about the medium. The point is, if I want to make a film about a man planting a garden, you know, before, let's just say

[52:40] Michael: Lord of the Rings.

[52:41] Matt: Sure. Before the 1980s, I had to go get a guy and I had to go get a garden and I had to get garden tools and I had to set it all up. And I'd say, all right, I want you to pretend like you're planning a garden, and I'm going to film you doing it.

[52:56] Michael: Yeah.

[52:59] Matt: Fast forward to now. If I want to make a film about a man planting a garden, I don't need the man. I don't need the garden or the garden tools. So when I present to you my film that I've made with AI of a man planting a garden, it is not an index of anything that ever happened in reality. If I show you the film that I did in the 1980s. No, you're watching something which is fiction,

[53:27] Michael: but somebody actually did it.

[53:28] Matt: But somebody actually did it. There was a real person that really did that, what you're watching. And now we're living in a world where we don't know what percentage of what we're watching never happened, which means it's all just a figment of the imagination. It's all, what is it? I don't know what it is. I don't know how to feel about that, how to think about that. Like, what is it? What is what AI Is presenting us with. What I do know for sure is that there's no indexicality. It is not an index of anything.

[54:05] Michael: Maybe it's because you're an artist. I'm not following you. No, no, I think I get the. But where I. I think where I just kind of like. Like, I'm more interested, like, what is it saying than the actual process.

[54:22] Matt: Haven't you ever heard the medium is the message?

[54:26] Michael: Well, I know, actually. That's actually a good point. That's. That's very interesting. I don't. I don't know how to. That's

[54:33] Matt: one. Yeah. I've never really been able to wrap my head around that

[54:36] Michael: one. Yeah, well, because I. You know, because when you watch something with AI it's like you don't have that same sense of Earth, like the guy is actually tilling the earth. So you see it as a. As a actual somebody who's encountering something real. And you're experiencing that through something that's not real. But however, if you're just something that's not real is trying to communicate something that is real. There's a little bit of, like, disconnect between those two things. So, like, you know, like Lord of the Rings, you know, and they have all those CGI things. It's like, you say, well, that's not real. It's like, yeah, but what it's communicating is something that. The tension between Good and evil or something that's been corrupted, and that it was actually able to do that a lot more poignantly through that CGI than it could if you. If you did that in a more natural environment, you know, if that makes sense.

[55:39] Matt: Well,

[55:39] Michael: like, I don't think that. That that scene could be recreated. Now,

[55:43] Matt: you're responding to the concept I'm trying to introduce here called indexicality with a conversation about sort of fiction versus non fiction. I mean,

[55:52] Michael: not really. I mean,

[55:54] Matt: let me try another example. Take sort of CGI off the table for just a second, and then I'm actually immediately. So when you watch Avatar, obviously half of that film is cgi, but you also know, and I think you probably get a feel for this when you watch it, that the movements of the people that are being shown to you via CGI were done by an actual person. So there's indexicality there. It's weak, but it's still there. In Lord of the Rings, what you're watching is maybe something that does not and cannot exist in reality. It is fiction. You are watching characters that never existed in real life. But you also have a very strong sense that the message being given to you began when a real guy sat down at his very real desk and using a pen and paper and ink, transmitted from his very real brain, this message, this story. So I would say the indexicality is there is really your relationship with Tolkien. But then when it comes to AI

[57:24] Michael: oh, okay, gotcha.

[57:25] Matt: Now we're watching videos generated by AI. Where's the real person anywhere in that situation? It isn't anywhere.

[57:36] Michael: I

[57:36] Matt: mean, the fact that you can understand that you can recognize a video from AI and say, this looks like what I've come to know videos look like. This looks like what I've come to know humans look like, or a dog looks like, or whatever. But ultimately there was no. There's no human involved in that.

[57:55] Michael: But it's interesting, I mean, because you kind of get kind of. The conversation you and I had earlier too, is like, you do kind of get a. Like how the person that was prompting the AI, you're getting their take, an understanding of whatever scene or scenario that you're getting. So it's like. So there's still a human. I think where I kind of see your point is if it is just AI producing some person's like, hey, produce this thing. And it does this thing. And like, oh, that's cool. And it's like, there's. Yes, it might have been prompted, but I still think there's the human element.

[58:35] Matt: I was just thinking about, like, you know, What we know about ancient Egypt. We know because of the artifacts they left behind. We can go dig stuff up, we can examine it, we can study it. Fast forward 100 years, and 99% of our digital footprints are made by AI. And so an alien species comes, we've exterminated ourselves, and they get our digital archives because that's where everything lives now. There's nothing in the real world. I mean, there is, but, like, all of our information, right, is digital.

[59:19] Michael: Oh, yeah. No more books. And

[59:20] Matt: they consume all of the digital information.

[59:23] Michael: Like, what does that tell us? Tell them about us.

[59:25] Matt: What does that tell them about us? It

[59:26] Michael: tells us

[59:26] Matt: nothing about us because none of it ever happened.

[59:30] Michael: Well, maybe not to that extreme, but I do see where you're getting at is it doesn't really explain. It's not as accurate of a depiction of our society at that time. It's more of a abstraction of our society.

[59:50] Matt: I'll have to do some more thinking on this.

[59:53] Michael: Let's see if I

[59:53] Matt: can push the push a little further.

[59:54] Michael: Yeah, I think it's. Think it's worth it because I think there's. There's so many things that we're actually facing more and more in this area of like. Like, what is real? Like, I'm working on a project right now and using AI for it, and part of my struggles is like, look, what I created is like, did I create this? And I think there's a little bit of like, I, I do see it from a part of like, how I'm prompting it and leading it, but at the same time, there's a lot of the work that I'm not doing. And so how much of it is me and how much is the AI reacting to me? And so it's almost like you're even having a partnership or even like Asimov in his book. I forget which one it was. But you know how they reached interstellar space or interstellar. Interstellar travel was basically the AI did something and they were able to then move from planet to planet in no time at all. And they don't know how. And we're seeing that right now. And that who actually knows how something works? You have to go across 10,000 people to actually understand how something works. Our cars, I mean, that's a small example of it.

[61:10] Matt: Right.

[61:10] Michael: And so, like, so there's a part of our future that we're actually not going to understand how things work. And, and part of me is like, that's also a part that we're going to have to accept.

[61:22] Matt: It's pretty scary.

[61:23] Michael: It's really scary and also really exciting too.

[61:26] Matt: Have we talked about the Carrington event?

[61:29] Michael: I don't know what that is.

[61:30] Matt: Since like 1859, I believe there was a SME. Solar Magnetic Ejection. Is that what it's called? Plasma ejection from the sun?

[61:42] Michael: This isn't sexual, is it?

[61:43] Matt: No, it's not sexual. It's not ejaculation. The sun has this plasma burst and sun does that all the time. But if one is it. Is it faced toward Earth is the question. In 1859, a big enough one was faced toward Earth that it was basically a. What is it called? Emp and knocked out all of the electric grid. Apparently radio operators reported that their equipment kept working even though the power was out. They could hear the radios broadcasting even though there was no power. Electric lines exploded. Telegram operators got shocked. The problem was pretty big. But in 1859, the electric good was really small.

[62:37] Michael: Yeah.

[62:41] Matt: If that happens again, not only do we not know how anything we currently have works, we don't know how to live without it.

[62:49] Michael: Oh, totally.

[62:50] Matt: And so if our. If the electricity goes down, we are absolutely screwed. Screwed. Like all dead in a month kind of screwed. Which is pretty scary.

[63:06] Michael: Yeah, that's. Well, I always question that too. I mean, I. Because I feel like this kind of comes up in my world ever so often, this idea. And I'm like, well, I feel like it should happen more often. Like the sun's really big and I'm sure it throws off these huge ejections and it's like, why hasn't there. The sun's

[63:28] Matt: ejaculating on us again. Honey,

[63:31] Michael: why hasn't. Why haven't we experienced this more often? I feel like it should be like every. Like at least every 10 years, if not more than that.

[63:38] Matt: No, I think it is. It's just that the magnitude hasn't been big enough for that to happen again. But the Earth's electromagnetic field is also weakening right now, which is why you've had. There's been many recent events of people seeing borealis lights.

[63:53] Michael: Oh yeah.

[63:54] Matt: Further and further toward the equator. It's because the sun's energy is causing that and our electromagnetic field is weakened. And there have been some really large. I hope I'm getting this right. SMEs that have happened, but they just haven't happened to be pointed at us. I mean, the sun is way bigger than the Earth, so pointed at us is like.

[64:20] Michael: It looks Pretty small.

[64:20] Matt: Pretty small target. So,

[64:24] Michael: yeah,

[64:25] Matt: if you want to learn some more about this and possibly be even more terrified of things that could happen in our world, go follow Space Weather News on X.

[64:39] Michael: Well, that almost kind of comes back to the same point of humility is that's just one thing, you know, how many things should terrify you,

[64:48] Matt: how many one things there

[64:49] Michael: are, how many one things? I mean, you know, I feel like I'm being told that by the media all the time about this one thing that should terrify me. And I'm like, okay, 1 out of 10 billion, like, which. Which one do you need me to worry about?

[65:02] Matt: Right.

[65:04] Michael: It's like I'm just trying to take care of my family and run a business. Yeah. It's like

[65:12] Matt: not

[65:12] Michael: go bankrupt. Exactly. Yeah, it's. It's kind of overwhelming. Well, it also leads back to another point, is like sometimes we end up fabricating threats and it makes us feel better because we feel we have control or we take on a threat as if it's. Yeah. Our purpose. Yeah. And I, I think we all do it. And you know, whether it's on an individual level or as a family or as a society, you know, it's like. And I think that's our thing where. Because like, we do have to determine like what is a threat. Because there are things that are actual threats and you need to deal with those. If you don't pay your bills, you lose your stuff. That's an actual threat. Or is it because you can still pick up and move on from there? I think that's a hard thing we do is how do we evaluate threats?

[66:13] Matt: Seems like things are simultaneously better and also worse than you might think at any given time. That's so

[66:22] Michael: true.

[66:22] Matt: A matter of perspective.

[66:23] Michael: Well, that's one thing I've really. I don't know when this started, but like the whole like showing gratitude, like, I think that's the part that I think keeps us sane is like, what is in your life that you're. That you're really thankful for? And thinking, I mean, for me it's like thanking God for that. But it's like, but being thankful. And I think that shifts your perspective and you know, like what you pay attention to. Same thing with the gorilla earlier on. I think that's one of the most like empowering things that you can do is, is, is a gratitude. You know, even people with you disagree with is like it's

[67:05] Matt: consciously saying. It's like you see what you look for. I'm going to direct what I Look for. Towards something good.

[67:16] Michael: Oh, that's good. Well, I think that there's a power in that, is what is good. And let me direct my gaze towards that. And so, yes, there's a lot of problems in the world and so many of them, but it's like, what is good and what impact can I have in that area? And you focus on that. And you know what? When you do that, you're gonna. You're gonna find a lot of, like, negativity in there too. But it's. If. But that's. I think that's where most. The people that are most impactful see the light at the. At the end are moving towards that even in the midst of all the darkness or the. And I think it comes back to the whole idea of, like, well, what is. What's your value stack? Because that's going to really determine what you point toward with the light that you're going towards. It's like if you come into the world and you think all men are created equal, it's like, that's a value stack that you're pointed to. So no matter what somebody throws at you, it's like, no, you and I are the same. You might have taken a different path, but it's like, we're the same. I'm the same as a killer. There's no difference. You might have made some bad decisions, but it's like. But we're still the same. It's like we're. We're equal.

[68:32] Matt: Same human nature.

[68:33] Michael: Yeah,

[68:34] Matt: we've dealt with it in different ways.

[68:36] Michael: Yeah, you've made some bad decisions. Maybe you're not repentant. Maybe you are, but you are. You're my brother, which is really. I think that's hard.

[68:46] Matt: Yeah.

[68:47] Michael: Even if you continue in your ways, you're still my brother. And to treat people like that, it's like, even if I disagree with you or even if you are doing something really horrible, I still need to treat you as if you're my brother or my sister. I think it's interesting because that's what Paul talks about. That is like, you know, treating people that are peers as if they're your brothers and sisters and if they're. They're your elders, treat them as if they're your father or your mother. And there's something really. And then anybody below your station or your age or what, however you want to describe it, as if they're your child, you know, your daughter or your son. And I think there's really something valuable in that to. To a High. It's a high value to have.

[69:30] Matt: It seems like that's a. Almost a recapitulation of what Jesus did. No Jew nor gentile.

[69:46] Michael: Yeah, barbarian or, you know, whatever.

[69:48] Matt: Yeah, whatever that verse is. All are welcome. All are welcome at my table and in my kingdom. I treat you all as my children. And, you know, maybe that brings us full circle to the idea of, like, the highest thing in the highest place. If that's the highest thing in the highest place, then isn't it incumbent on me? If I'm being treated, in a sense, as an adopted son of God, I'm being let in, then how could I treat anyone else differently?

[70:27] Michael: Oh, wow. It's like if you don't know your station like you are, you're accepted. Well, that actually means everybody's accepted.

[70:38] Matt: Hmm. I don't know how this is going to exactly fit, but I was doing some thinking about inadmissible evidence in court. And I was one, I think, maybe because I was watching some news story about some court case that was going to happen, but I was like, why would it be that evidence would be inadmissible? So I was thinking about examples of that. I looked it up. What are the examples of inadmissible evidence? And one of the examples of, well, if you obtain evidence illegally, it can't be. The judge is going to rule it inadmissible. I'm like, yeah, but what if the evidence is true? How could that not have any bearing on the court case? What a court case is, is to try to get to the truth of the matter.

[71:25] Michael: Yeah,

[71:26] Matt: but then I thought, oh, right. But like, if I have to break some. If I have to violate someone else's rights, if I have to break the law, violate someone else's rights in order to prove that my rights have been violated, then I have no grounds on which to object to my rights being violated.

[71:42] Michael: Because you just said you just violate somebody else.

[71:44] Matt: Yes.

[71:44] Michael: Yeah.

[71:45] Matt: And I think it's almost.

[71:46] Michael: If it's true,

[71:47] Matt: it's almost like that turned inside out. It's like, if I'm being led into the kingdom of heaven, then it's almost like, don't I nullify my acceptance? If I don't, then extend that acceptance of. Of bringing someone into the family who. Or treating someone like their family, who isn't family. If I'm being treated like I'm family and I'm not family,

[72:16] Michael: I don't know if you want to get into that. There's a whole.

[72:18] Matt: I think it's a good place to. Because that is a whole other route. And I feel like there's some

[72:24] Michael: maybe next week

[72:25] Matt: interesting sort of follow on consequences and caveats that are necessary to make in both the court case instance and in the kingdom of God instance. But I don't think I'm prepared to figure out what they are right now.

[72:46] Michael: No.

[72:46] Matt: All right, well, that's a good place to end

[72:48] Michael: it.

[72:48] Matt: All right.

[72:49] Michael: Love you guys. Cheers. Thanks for out there.