Did I bum you out?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. I was trying to make a bad bunny sound.

[0:25] Michael: Oh, okay.

[0:26] Matt: But you didn't watch that.

[0:27] Michael: No, I didn't. Cheers.

[0:30] Matt: Hey, Cheers. To the shores.

[0:31] Michael: To the shores.

[0:35] Matt: You know, feels like we never left, to be honest.

[0:39] Michael: I know we did. Thursday last night last week and feels like the week by so fast.

[0:44] Matt: Yeah, I know.

[0:46] Michael: Maybe you do two podcasts a week.

[0:48] Matt: Hey, those are cute cufflinks.

[0:49] Michael: Thanks.

[0:50] Matt: What are those? Cranes?

[0:51] Michael: Sandpipers.

[0:52] Matt: Sandpipers. What's the significance of that?

[0:56] Michael: I found them in Dursley, England.

[0:59] Matt: Oh, wow.

[0:59] Michael: At, like, a little thrift store. They call them something else there. I forget what it was.

[1:03] Matt: Thrift stores?

[1:04] Michael: Yeah.

[1:04] Matt: Oh, I'd like to know what that is.

[1:06] Michael: I forget.

[1:07] Matt: What does Charlie call the thrift store?

[1:12] Michael: Anyways? Yeah, I just saw it. These were eight bucks.

[1:14] Matt: Nice.

[1:15] Michael: I know.

[1:16] Matt: So stylish. So we were having a very interesting conversation about AI led to you making the comment. I think I feel like I really bummed you out.

[1:28] Michael: Totally. Yeah. So I'm curious about that mood.

[1:31] Matt: My mood did kind of shift, I think. I have been over the past maybe two weeks, which have felt like the sort of revelations and the news stories and the news cycle has been coming at us faster and faster. But I think that there were some things that I learned that have me feeling this very uneasy sense that in some really deep way, we don't live in the world we think we live in. And I'm not sure what world we actually live in. And it's got me maybe not bummed out, but this feeling of dis. Ease about it. So I wrote down a couple of the things leading up to this or us tonight, so maybe we can kind of talk through them.

[2:24] Michael: So, you know, I'm going to dive into your. I guess you're still exploring your feelings on this.

[2:29] Matt: I am, yeah.

[2:30] Michael: Yeah.

[2:32] Matt: Well, it's like there seems to be. You know, I think we have been in a state of redefinition for a long time. Some of it just intrinsic to the way societies and cultures move, but also a lot of it sort of like forced on us, like redefining words, you know, that really started in earnest. It felt to me like in. In 2020, we're going to redefine the word racism to make it broad enough to apply to whatever we want to apply it to. And that was kind of mildly annoying. But I see some other things starting to become redefined as well, in ways that are maybe curious and also frightening. And I'll just start with. We already mentioned the Bad Bunny. Super time, half. Super time, super time, super time, half bowl show, which was really bizarre. I watched it, and I'm sure you've seen commentary on it in a lot of ways. It was pretty visually stunning and impressive. It was also really, really, really strange because it felt like it wasn't there for anyone's entertainment. And it was done in a way that was like, I dare you to notice that. I dare you to notice how absurd this is. And if you do, I'm gonna attack you. That's what it felt like to me. And I started feeling that even before he started. Like, they were setting up the. You know, the field to convert it into the show. And around the perimeter of where he was gonna be performing, there was all these. I guess they were meant to be sugarcane stalks that were, like, I don't know, 12ft tall. So all the performance went on inside of this walled area. So no one in the stadium could actually even see what was happening. And I saw one guy who was there. He did a video, and he was like, it was really strange. It felt like watching Bad Bunny film a music video, and you would think that maybe they'd put the video up on the screen, but he's like. Half the time, the screens were used as props in the set, so most of it you couldn't see. And then on top of that, it's really interesting because people, I guess, knew Bad Bunny's name, but nobody knows his music. I was asking my daughters about this. I was like, have y' all ever listened to a Bad Bunny song? They said, no. And they're teenagers. I was like, your friends? Anybody at school listen to him? Does anybody know who he is? They were like, we all know what his name is, but nobody listens to him. And then he performed completely in Spanish. And so you're putting on a show that no one in the audience can see in a language that no one in the audience can speak, or very few, anyway. Very few celebrating a culture. And the whole thing was visually meant to celebrate Puerto Rican culture in the middle of the biggest and most iconic American cultural event of the year. So it felt like they were doing it for someone else. And I'm not sure who. But then back to my point about redefinition, what I thought was really, really strange was at the very end, Bad Bunny wraps the names of seemingly every single South American country. And the people behind him are waving flags from every South American country. And then he holds up a football that Says, together, we are America. And I was like, what is that? What is that message? And in the background, the billboard said, there's nothing stronger than hate, than love. Something like that. The only thing stronger than hate is love. So I think optically, it sort of looked like this really positive thing. And a lot of people commented that they felt like it was really beautiful and positive. But I felt like you've heard the term the medium is the message. It felt like that to me. And it felt like what it was doing was trying to rhetorically redefine something. And the not quite overt, but optically and rhetorically overt was the apparent suggestion that America is the continent, not the country. So it therefore includes everyone in South America. Together, we are America. It's like, that's a really strange suggestion to make. It's nonsense. I mean, everybody knows that just because the country, America shares a name with the continent, that doesn't mean that America is the whole continent. If you live in Canada, you're not an American. If you live in Brazil, you're not an American, you're a Brazilian. So that felt very odd. It was kind of like, where's this message coming from? What's the intent of it? What are you trying to make happen? You're putting on a show that I will use the term is absurd, given the context. Not that a bad bunny show is absurd or that music sung in Spanish is absurd, given. But to do all of that in the middle of the biggest American cultural event of the year, it's weird. So I think I started to feel a little bit uneasy about that. But then some other kind of things happened, one of which is during the super bowl, they ran this commercial for the ring doorbell cam. Oh, yeah, did you see that one? In which they introduced this new feature called Search Party, and they advertised that the purpose of it was to find lost dogs. But you realize when you watch the commercial, it's like, oh, wait a second. Ring has access to everyone's cameras, and they can use AI to watch all of it and find things like a lost dog. Oh, isn't that so sweet? And then there was a second instance that had to do with the nest doorbell cameras in which the very strange and tragic disappearance or abduction of Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother. Something like 11 days ago, I think, two days ago, it came out that Nancy Guthrie had a nest doorbell cam but did not have a nest subscription. And when you have a nest doorbell cam without a subscription, you can't save video. But the FBI worked with nest and Was able to recover video of an assailant coming up to her front door. It's pretty terrifying video, too. It's very, very odd. This guy in a ski mask and it was like, oh, wait, this is true with nest, too. All of these cameras in our lives are recording everything, and we can turn AI loose on it at any time, find anybody, know what anyone has done at any time. And my feeling of dis ease started to grow. Like, I didn't think we lived in a surveillance state. I thought that I had my ring doorbell camera because it was convenient to know when a package was dropped off or when my daughter gets home from school, something like that. But it seems as though. And I don't actually have a ring camera. I do have cameras at my house, but not that particular brand. And I don't know if my cameras are doing this. So I thought we lived in this world in which I purchased a technological convenience that made my life better. And really what we have done is fund the surveillance state that has now just been introduced to us as. Isn't that so great? We can find lost dogs. And my feeling of disease grew. And I've got a couple more. I can keep going. You want to jump in?

[10:56] Michael: You're in a roll.

[10:56] Matt: I know.

[10:57] Michael: Yeah. I feel like I'm just gonna sit back and listen to your podcast.

[10:59] Matt: Okay. I have considered sometime at times that you've been out of town trying to do a solo podcast, but I've never tried it.

[11:13] Michael: You could probably do it. I think I would ramble too much.

[11:17] Matt: Wouldn't that make it easier for you to do it then?

[11:20] Michael: I don't know.

[11:22] Matt: Okay, so a couple more things. The Jeffrey Epstein files. I don't know what these things are. I don't know how credible any of it is, but it sure seems to suggest that we do not live in the world we think we live in. We think we live in this particular world with national cultural stories and characters and icons and people that we think we kind of have a grasp on who they are. And maybe the appearance of Trump on the political stage was one of the first blows to that, at least for some people. But the Epstein files paint a very dark picture, and it's not clear who's in that picture. Some things are really startling. For example, apparently Donald Trump was the first or one of the first people to report Epstein to the police back in 2005. So it sort of turns. The Donald Trump is in the Epstein files from Elon Musk on its head. And there's some people suggesting that Elon and in Trump sort of having their public breakup and was all engineered to get us to this point, which I think is a delicious conspiracy theory, but delicious. I love it.

[12:47] Michael: I feel like Ed McMahon. Yes, delicious. Hahaha.

[12:50] Matt: Yeah. Well, Hillary and Bill Clinton are being called to testify before Congress as a result of the Epstein files. That's my understanding. There is pretty, I don't know that I want to say credible, but the whole Pizzagate thing, which is dismissed as a conspiracy is referenced a lot of times in there. There's a lot of emails, I think something like 800 emails where Jeffrey Epstein mentions pizza and it's like, what is that? So it's kind of calling a bunch of things into question and it's not really offering the answers. And then simultaneously this week we get the news that apparently Kurt Cobain did not commit suicide. He was murdered.

[13:45] Michael: That would find a little bit harder to believe. But you do. Yeah, he is a pretty troubled guy.

[13:51] Matt: Well, apparently there's allegations that Courtney Love, who he was married to, was caught up in some of the sex trafficking stuff.

[13:58] Michael: Yeah, okay, I've heard that before.

[14:00] Matt: Yeah. And then I think one of the guys who initially thought it was murder, he got taken out.

[14:08] Michael: I heard that. That was many years ago.

[14:09] Matt: I heard that. Yeah. So there's a lot of weird things around that story. But some private investigator re reviewed the evidence and the description of it I read felt compelling. But you know, this is one of those cultural stories that hit close to my heart because this, this is a guy that really had the imaginations of early teenagers, captivated even late teenagers in. Late teenagers. Yeah, I mean, I guess I say early because I'm referencing my own experience. It was in middle school when Nirvana just. They were on Beatles basically and we lost Kurt. And now I'm like, wait, but that might not be true. I mean, add that, I guess, to the list of everything from JFK to Watergate to 911 to, you know, throw the moon landing in there. Why not?

[14:58] Michael: Why not? Let's just do it all.

[15:01] Matt: But enough things are kind of like have been called into question. And then add on top of that the exponential improvement of artificial intelligence and the absolutely unknown world that is leading

[15:15] Michael: us into that most people don't see

[15:17] Matt: or understand, that most people don't see or understand yet and they're not going to know what hit them. So I don't know. I feel very uneasy about all of it. I don't, I don't feel like I have sort of a safe place to kind of rest My psyche, which is funny.

[15:33] Michael: Like, I. I kind of have. I feel different.

[15:35] Matt: Okay.

[15:36] Michael: You know, I'm kind of excited that I don't know something about, like, false narratives and ideas being torn apart in uncertainty. I think it's just. It's like there's a ripe ripeness for creativity and innovation, and a lot of this sort of institutional, you know, whether it be the narrative or business or. It kind of, like puts us in these boxes, and then we just kind of learn to live in these boxes, and it's safe and it's comfortable because we know what to expect. And, you know, I follow these outlets, and they keep me informed and. And. But at some point, like, whenever you have your. Your worldview sort of shaken up, you're just like. It's like what we're talking about right now is, like, real. And I think that's such a. Such a valuable place to be in. And I think it's something that, ideally, it should be a yearly or, you know, every couple years. You should experience that because it just shakes off some of the. The. The dead. Dead skin or dead weight that you have.

[16:52] Matt: Dead skin.

[16:54] Michael: You know, it's like you need to exfoliate on a regular basis or something.

[16:57] Matt: Yeah.

[16:58] Michael: And I just don't think we in the west have done that because we live in such a comfortable walled garden that we haven't really had to put a lot of our viewpoints to the test. And I think this is such a great, healthy thing to have right now. And I think all these things are going to be disruptive, especially, and in different ways for different people, too. And some of that crashes can be even harder, I think. You know, I. I kind of think of, you know, when I was younger, kind of going through, like, when I went crazy is like. It's like my world fell apart and. And that was probably the best thing that ever happened to me. And, you know, I don't want it to happen again. So. Something I go seeking for, but I feel like I understand it. So even if my world fell apart tomorrow, I would. It would suck. But it's like, I also know that what comes from that is actually good. Something. Something can grow out of that. And if it was that destructive, then, you know, maybe there was a lot of things I was holding on to that weren't what they actually were. So. So I'm kind of like. I kind of feel more. More positive, like, with. You know, even if. Even if they just take the whole Epstein thing away and. And. And bury it again. I think that's something we just, we can't, we can't walk away from. Like I think you were saying, there's just too many of those things.

[18:31] Matt: Yeah.

[18:32] Michael: And to not kind of call on the question is like, where, what am I doing here? Where am I going? What am I giving my time and effort to? I think that's, I think that's a big question. A lot of these things kind of bring up who am I trusting.

[18:50] Matt: I mean, I guess it really does feel like we're living in a fourth turning because we are. And I can't really wax poetic about that because I haven't read the book. I actually went and looked for it twice this week at half price books. And I don't know why I'm determined to buy it at half price books when I could just order it on the Internet and it would arrive that day or whatever. But I don't know, maybe it's part of my unease. I'm like, there's probably a copy down the street. I'll just go get it. I don't need to force the printing of a new one. And also they're changing books a lot without really being clear about it. And I've noticed this from everything from. Well, I've noticed it with the Bible that online versions of that text in the same translation that I have in my copy from the 90s are different. They've removed a lot of gendered language. They've removed. I'm not sure what they've changed. I'm not sure that you can find a list of what they've changed. Famously, we changed Mark Twain's book because we found it very offensive that it contained the N word. But it's like, I want the book. I want the one that the author wrote. That's the one I want to read. And I'm dubious these days about what I'm buying on Amazon and its authenticity,

[20:12] Michael: which is a little bit different for the Bible because it's translated from a different language. So there is like, there is continual upgrades as far as our understanding of the words and stuff. But I don't think that explains away what you're talking about.

[20:24] Matt: No.

[20:25] Michael: And I've kind of had that experience. I've used the esv, which is English Standard Version, and over the last couple of years I have kind of like. Did that say that before?

[20:36] Matt: Right.

[20:38] Michael: It's like a lot of the verses I've memorized were.

[20:40] Matt: And if it's online, you don't know.

[20:42] Michael: Yeah.

[20:42] Matt: And that's why there's a record of It. So anyway, I wanted to read Neil House's. Is it Neil House.

[20:49] Michael: Neil Howells or something like that, wrote

[20:53] Matt: a book in the 90s called the Fourth Turning, in which he outlines the generational cycles. And have you read the book? Okay, can you name what the four are? Or is it just 1, 2 and 3? Four.

[21:05] Michael: It's 1, 2, 3 and 4. But it's. So it's basically the fourth turning is sort of dismantling of all institutions. And then in the first turning, you have this sort of like, kind of like a rebirth. And then in the second, sort of like second turning, sort of like a renaissance. And then the third turning is kind of when those institutions start to become corrupt again. So the second turning is sort of like where everything. Like, it's like the culmination of that. Maybe that's more of like a reformation or something like that. So you have sort of like the Renaissance, and then second turning is more like a reformation. And the third turning is like those institutions become. Sorry, Become corrupt.

[21:50] Matt: Right.

[21:50] Michael: And the fourth turning is when those corruption, those. Those institutions become.

[21:54] Matt: They fall.

[21:55] Michael: They fall.

[21:55] Matt: Yeah, yeah. And we're living through a fourth turning right now. The previous fourth turnings were World War II, the Civil War, the American Revolution. So they tend to be accompanied by war. They tend to be accompanied by the loss of institutional trust. And that also has.

[22:22] Michael: Well, by the fourth turning, it's like institutional trust is almost gone. Yeah. Deteriorating completely.

[22:26] Matt: Right. And that's what we're living through right now. And it would seem to me like that would feel intuitively correct to almost anyone, no matter what you agree or disagree with me about.

[22:41] Michael: Yeah. Or politically or whatever.

[22:43] Matt: Right. Like, there's obviously terrible divide in our country. In our thinking, we are perceiving different realities. There's obvious loss of institutional trust, even though there are those who seek to defend the trustworthiness of those institutions. I mean, if you just look around people, I think there is the mainstream voice that would say that the COVID vaccines were safe and effective and they got us out of that pandemic. But if you go look at who's getting those now, and it's been this way for several years, almost no one. It's something like 2% of the population is getting them. So the population doesn't believe that. You can say it as much as you want. They're not acting on it because they don't believe that it's true. I think so many of our narratives, we've stopped believing that they're true. Whether we're willing to say it out loud or not. Which. I saw this the other day. Another really interesting one is like, voter ID apparently has an 84.

[23:54] Michael: Well, it just passed today.

[23:55] Matt: Oh, did it pass? Wow.

[23:56] Michael: On the federal level. For federal elections.

[23:58] Matt: Wow.

[23:59] Michael: It's like, I don't know what the exact number is, like 255 to 256 or something like that.

[24:04] Matt: Just even split, but it passed. So that's.

[24:08] Michael: I don't, I don't know if now it has to go to the Senate or if they originated in the Senate and then went to the House. I kind of forget how that would work.

[24:14] Matt: Well, that's what's so interesting is, like, apparently it polls at an 84% approval rating among Americans, which just makes sense. And yet you had. But. And yet you had, I assume, 255 against every single one of them. Democrats

[24:29] Michael: and some Republicans, too.

[24:30] Matt: What is that? What is that? I thought we had a. Represent. Representative government.

[24:35] Michael: Yeah. Like, why are you representing.

[24:38] Matt: Right. Why is the. Why is the Senate not representing the interests of the people? Like, the people don't feel that way.

[24:47] Michael: Yeah.

[24:48] Matt: And then, I mean, I think you see, you see a war against the will of the people in a lot of places. I mean, I think you see this sort of starting in a soft way with Hillary saying over and over that Trump was an illegitimate president. I mean, there's literally nothing true about that statement. I mean, not liking someone doesn't make them illegitimately elected. And that has continued on to states currently, most famously Minnesota, just straight up saying, we're not going to follow federal law. That's a war against the will of the people.

[25:29] Michael: Well, I also have a hard time with the will of the people, too, because we live in a republic. And so it's like, you know, I think the will the people do. But when you're talking about, like, some of those numbers, you're Talking about, like, 84%, sort of like, well, there's something to be. To be said of what you need to be doing.

[25:46] Matt: And yeah, I mean, I guess we could have a discussion about whether the will of the people should be followed. I mean, I don't necessarily trust the will of people for the reasons that I don't trust a mob. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, all of that seems indicative of lack of trust. And, you know, whether it's the Democrats not trusting Trump or the Republicans not trusting the intentions of the Democrats in sanctuary cities, for an example, I think the lack of trust and the lack of credibility in institutions is obviously eroded.

[26:24] Michael: Oh, totally. I mean, Even like, Mark Zuckerberg just moved to Florida.

[26:30] Matt: That's crazy.

[26:31] Michael: And it's like that movement, Mark's. I think it's over $1 trillion of revenue or taxable revenue that's left California.

[26:42] Matt: Not just with Mark.

[26:43] Michael: Not just with Mark, but everyone who

[26:45] Matt: has left in the past, like, two months.

[26:46] Michael: Yeah.

[26:47] Matt: Because of their. Their asset seizure.

[26:51] Michael: Tax 5% one time.

[26:54] Matt: Right.

[26:55] Michael: Tax on. On all your assets.

[26:57] Matt: Right.

[26:57] Michael: And it's. It's just kind of. It. I don't know why I brought that up, but it's just sort of like. Again, sort of like the political institutions or the governmental institutions just. They're reaching for absurdity. It's like you just can't. That's just not sustainable. I mean, it's easy to kind of go off to the rich because it's sort of like, oh, they have all this money and let's get some of it. But that doesn't solve our problems at all.

[27:21] Matt: I can't. Yeah. I mean, for anybody who's interested in that particular thing. Go. Go listen to some recent all in episodes, the all in podcast, because they do a really good job breaking that down, especially David Freeberg.

[27:32] Michael: He does a good job with that. Yeah.

[27:33] Matt: And you could say, well, they're all rich and it applies to them, and so of course they're against it or whatever, but they actually sort of follow it to a logical conclusion, what's going to happen? And you don't have to like, what's going to happen. But they seem to make a pretty airtight case from my perspective and from your humble perspective. And I would say I like that podcast a lot because they are four good friends who are also politically at odds with one another. And so the conversations one are such a wonderful antidote to the way political discourse generally has been going in this country for a long time. It's been more of we disagree politically, which means we cannot have conversation. They are showing a model of how to have conversation when you disagree politically and remain friends.

[28:24] Michael: And it's heated, too.

[28:25] Matt: And it's heated.

[28:25] Michael: Yeah. And sometimes even they don't talk to each other for periods of time, too. I mean, that's. That's something that they've said. But they continue to agree, value their

[28:34] Matt: friendship over the disagreement. Yeah, that's great. Anyway, so we're living through a fourth. Fourth journey, so I hope we survive through it. I mean, it seems to me like I just can't on a number of levels. Imagine. And maybe this is a feature of Fourth turnings is like, I don't know how to imagine past this. I don't know how to imagine to the Renaissance. I can imagine what a Renaissance might be like, but it's almost like an arbitrary imagination. It's not rooted in reality because it feels to me like, well, any number of things that are on the table could happen that could redefine our world radically in unpredictable ways. One of those things is AI. I have not been of the mind that the people like Jason Calacanis on the AI pod or all in pod. I have not agreed with him when he is sort of worried about the number of jobs that AI is going to take. I started getting worried about it this week because of what I've been seeing AI do and questioning, and I've worked in tech for a long time questioning whether or not I'm going to keep a job because AI can legitimately do what I do. It can do the. Whatever you might call the physical part of. Can't do some other parts of it. Maybe, like, I would do it totally. But do people need things done like I do them or do they just need them done? Well, I don't know.

[30:16] Michael: So that's the fascinating thing too, because where I'm using it right now and something I'm learning is it can do a lot of amazing things and it will definitely cut out a lot of jobs. But the opportunity of the individual who learns how to use it is phenomenal because it's like, it also needs direction. Like, what direction are you going? Right, that's. That's the part that AI needs. And if you don't have, if you don't have that, then it's kind of useless to you.

[30:47] Matt: Well, that's a great point about a second thing that could change. That would radically and unpredictably change our lives, which is. And I'm going to be very hyperbolistic here, but American Civil War, your point about it needs direction. You know, we had this conversation a couple of weeks back, or maybe it was just last week, about talking about your stack of values. They actually guide your perceptions. And I think people in the west right now, we disagree about what has the highest value in life. And so we are going different directions. I saw. You know, maybe it's easy for me to think about it in terms of sort of Christianity versus secularism, but Islam is becoming more and more embedded into Western culture. That's a different direction as well. I have said which direction I think is best a couple of episodes ago. I mean, my, my perspective is the Christian perspective, but I was shocked I saw, I guess, just two days ago, because I guess famously Piers Morgan was talking to Megyn Kelly about something and he said something like, radical Islam is not over overtaking the uk, I live here. And Megan retweeted him saying that and said, grok, what's the most popular baby name in the last five years in the uk?

[32:28] Michael: I still didn't read. I didn't know the context of it.

[32:30] Matt: That's funny. And Grok responds, mohammed is the most popular baby name in the uk. That blew my mind. That blew my mind. I don't think that you have to be for or against Islam or for or against Christianity to observe that a radical change in demographics like that is going to have a radical effect and an unpredictable effect on the way that that country moves forward if we're having something similar happening in the United States. And here's another reason that I don't think we live in the world we think we live in. The revelations about fraud in this country have been jaw dropping ever since Trump took office. And I suppose someone who doesn't like Trump could say, well, he's fabricating it, doesn't like it. Everyone that I've looked into seems like there's something really fishy going on to the extent that I've even had the.

[33:30] Michael: Wait, you did your own research?

[33:31] Matt: I did my own research. I know that that's supposed to kill you.

[33:35] Michael: What?

[33:37] Matt: But I did, and it seems to be so bad. I think I even said this on the podcast one day. I was like, it almost is explaining to me why I look around and so many people seem to be doing better than I'm doing. I'm like, how do these people have these cars in these houses and what kind of jobs are they doing? How. How are they earning this money? And the answer might legitimately be they're not. They are stealing it from the federal government. And I'm not blaming anyone in particular, but that's just the size and scope of the way that it looks to me. So it almost feels like on multiple levels, there are groups of people that are playing completely different games than I'm playing. And I don't know what those games are, whether it's the elites that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in, whether or not they're doing drinking adrenochrome and sacrificing children and all of these eating cannibalism. Whether or not that's happening or not. It feels clear to me that they're playing a different game by different set of rules. And I don't know what that game is or what the rules are. But that seems to be sort of percolating down through American society at levels that I never would have expected. And so we have all of these disagreements, we perceive different worlds, we are suspicious about other sets of worlds that we can't even really see, all happening right under our very eyes. And then we have the beginnings of armed conflict between civilians and federal agents. That seems like the beginning of a tinderbox. And where that goes is not predictable because unlike the first American Civil War, we are not divided on geographical lines. So what would that even look like? Would it even be a hot war? Are we already in one and it's an information war? I don't know. But there's a potential that it's leading us into a future. This is the way it seems to me, it's leading us into a future that no one can predict.

[35:55] Michael: Well, you kind of laid out a whole bunch of doom and gloom there.

[36:01] Matt: Well, that's why I got kind of bummed out earlier.

[36:04] Michael: I like it, change my mind. It's good to be able to like just get it all out, you know, because it's, it's not that I disagree with you. I, I, I kind of see another realm of possibility and I think that's, you know, I just see a lot of lying. And I also know that when somebody lies it, at some point it falls apart. You can only carry it for so long.

[36:37] Matt: Right.

[36:38] Michael: And so, so that's the part I'm excited about, is just sort of like, okay, finally the lie is breaking. Now what does it feel that way to you? Like whatever is true, it does feel that way. I don't, I think we still have a ways to go, but I think I feel like the lies are breaking and I sure hope so. And so, so for me, it's like I want to think about like what, what kind of future do I want to build? And that's, that's, that's the stuff that kind of excites me as far as like where technology is, where AI is, and what the possibilities of the future of that you can build. I mean, you got Elon Musk thinking about moon bases now instead of going to Mars. Obviously Mars is more of a longer term goal. But to have an active, fully scaled out moon base in the next 10 years, it'd be so dope. But that's the thing. I think at some point people either have to give in to the doom and gloom and become nihilistic, you know, or they, they join and participate in the doom and gloom. And I think that some of it. That some of the stuff you've been talking about kind of are hitting on was like, hey, I can't get ahead, so I might as well join and play the game that's being played. And. And there's probably some success that's been had in that, but it's like, I want to just. I want to break free from all of that and. And do something that's creatively positive for the world. And so that's kind of what I'm excited about as far as, like, there's actually real opportunity right now to do that, is to build something that benefits those around you. And I think people are going to be really hungry for that. And you see it, too. I mean, everything from California, like, you know, all these people leaving California right now is because there's nothing for them there. Like, all that.

[38:27] Matt: Just such a shame. It's like one of the most beautiful areas in the country, and people are leaving.

[38:33] Michael: Yeah. The dream of possibilities. They're going to places like Texas, Florida, Tennessee, and some other places because the future is more say, hey, come build here.

[38:45] Matt: Did you watch that clip I sent you today about the difference between California and Texas? This guy tells this story, and I won't repeat the whole thing. He draws it way out to make the. The point funnier. But he's like, the governor of California is out walking his dog, and all of a sudden a coyote jumps out on the trail and lays its teeth into the dog. And he's like, The governor takes the dog to the vet and costs $600 to check and make sure he's okay. Then he goes to the doctor to check and make sure he's okay. And that's $3,500. Then he goes and starts a commission on coyotes to study their behavior and their safety level. And that cost the government $50,000. And then PETA objects to the treatment and study of coyotes in the wild, and they sue the government for $12 million. And he goes down and down and down and on and on. Then he goes, the governor of Texas is walking his dog, and all of a sudden a coyote jumps out and starts to lay his teeth into the dog. And the governor shoots the coyote.

[39:56] Michael: Story's over.

[39:57] Matt: Story's over. I thought that was just hilarious.

[40:01] Michael: There's something so, like, I haven't watched it yet, what you just said, but, like, there's something. So it's like, I love that story.

[40:09] Matt: Yeah.

[40:09] Michael: It's like, no, let's just stop the problem right There.

[40:12] Matt: Yeah, totally. Well, I feel like we used to kind of know this. There's this clip that kind of lives rent free in my head of John Wayne and some old, you know, Western that he's in. And there's a young kid, this little brat's bothering him, and he's there by a lake, and he says, kid, like, his ball got into the water or something. He's asking him John Wayne to get it. And he's like, just swim in and get it. And kid goes, I can't swim. And he goes, what? And he picks the kid up and chucks him in the water, and his mother starts screaming, why would you do that to him? And he's like, because now he has to learn something like that. And I think we. At some point, you know, maybe it was. Maybe it was our parents generation, once we got that, got kind of obsessed with helicopter parenting and safety and our playgrounds. And over the course of the generation of the millennials, really changed from death traps to all plastic and foam. The playgrounds. I remember when I was really little,

[41:21] Michael: oh, the slides were like fire hot.

[41:23] Matt: Fire hot. Rusty.

[41:25] Michael: You could shoot off into oblivion off of it. Yeah.

[41:28] Matt: I mean, stuff was jagged and sharp. And now our kids don't encounter any of those things. So maybe in the midst of that change, we've lost our taste for the harsh truth of things. Sometimes it isn't good to not know how to swim. The solution to danger is not safety. It's resilience. And we've become fragile when we should be antifragile in so many ways. And I think that John Wayne clip lives in my head because there's a romance to that also, in a way. I mean, I think that's why we're drawn to Western movies in general, is that it's. They're romantic. And I don't mean that in this sort of like, romantic partner kind of way, but it's like, no, there's something really beautiful to the harsh reality of life. And when you understand it and stand up under it, there's something romantic to that. And I'm maybe nostalgic for it, but maybe nostalgia isn't the right word. C.S. lewis says something about how nostalgia is often just a name we give for the longing we have for God. Anyway, I don't know where we're going with that. No. But I do. See. Okay, I want to go back to what you were talking about. The breaking of the lies. That gets me very excited. And I love that. It's like. It's like A very Lord of the Rings kind of.

[43:07] Michael: Well, it comes back to, like, those axioms I'm always talking about is sort of, you know, there's an objective truth and we have a subjective experience of it. It's not. It's not the objective that bends. It's us. And so I think that's the part that I'm excited about. Is like. Is like, okay, at some point we're going to have to kind of admit and acknowledge something that's.

[43:32] Matt: Well, I wanted to give a bit of positive evidence that seems to me like we are hungry for the breaking of the lies. We are hungry for the worm tongue in our ear to be gone.

[43:44] Michael: Good call.

[43:45] Matt: And I think it's just like the sheer popularity of the Epstein story. As much as the elites and the media don't seem to want that story to break, or many of them. It's a very popular story because I think we the people all want it to break because we have this sense that we aren't being told the truth. And we want the truth because these

[44:09] Michael: other people live according to another set of laws that don't apply to us.

[44:13] Matt: Set of standards. Yeah. And we don't want that. We want the truth to come out.

[44:18] Michael: Yeah.

[44:19] Matt: And so that's evidence that we are hungry for the breaking of the lies. And I hope there's more of that. I hope we cultivate that as a people. A hunger for the truth.

[44:33] Michael: Yeah. I mean, there's all sorts of little nuggets of hope financially. Bitcoin has this really. I mean, even though it's really far down, it's just something about incorruptible money. Like nobody has control over it. You know, It's. There's only 21 million, and that's all that's going to be produced. And. And like, just the idea of the store value of that. And I don't know, there's something about that, that narrative that also just kind of excites me as far as, like. Like how we move forward. And, you know, we've just kind of lived in this world where governments have just been printing money to do things.

[45:16] Matt: Yeah.

[45:16] Michael: And it's like, if there's no accountability there, it's like, then just money gets wasted.

[45:22] Matt: It's like I was listening to this podcast with Ray Dalio talking about the monetary system and the pretty bad situation that we are apparently in. I think it must be a feature of finance that they make it very, very confusing so that they can do evil shit and no one will know because we don't understand the terms. And I keep thinking I just, I really need to go to Grok or ChatGPT and like, give me a deep dive. I want to understand the monetary system and the financial. I should learn this stuff. I would probably be better with money as a result of it, but there's also something about it turns me off at the same time. And so I continue on in my ignorance. But it does seem like I think you understand this better than I do, but that the US in particular is in a pretty dire situation financially and there really isn't a way out of it.

[46:29] Michael: Yeah, that's very true. But I mean, the upside of that is like the rest of the world is in a worse situation if that's an upside.

[46:38] Matt: That doesn't seem like an upside.

[46:39] Michael: Well, I think that's the crazy thing is you're seeing all these, like, these moves in other countries to kind of like move out from under the US in this, you know, sort of $$ized world. And, and they don't have anything to move to.

[46:55] Matt: Right.

[46:55] Michael: Because their own currencies are not worth.

[46:59] Matt: Right.

[46:59] Michael: And you know, so it's like, even though, like the US is printing money and it's, it's becoming less and less worthless, it's like everybody else's is just as, as bad, if not worse, dollars

[47:09] Matt: becoming more and more worthless.

[47:11] Michael: Exactly. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's something that we just don't, especially us in the west, we don't see very well. But, but I think that's why that there's certain, there's certain technologies and things that are happening right now that have the potential to really change things. And, and those are the ideas that's like, I want to build on those ideas and, and see that as our future, as the new renaissance, the second or the first turning comes. I think there's a lot of potential for that, but I don't think we're all going to make it, which is the sad part.

[47:49] Matt: Well, none of us are going to make it in the end.

[47:52] Michael: True, we all die in the end

[47:55] Matt: and we can't take anything with us. But I do, I think maybe the thing that's got me at least currently, hopefully temporarily, a little bit bummed out is. It's something about stability. Do we live in a world in which stability is possible

[48:20] Michael: or even desirable?

[48:24] Matt: Expand, enhance, enhance.

[48:28] Michael: Well, I find that sometimes stability leads to complacency. And so there's, there's surely.

[48:35] Matt: Oh, that's a great point.

[48:36] Michael: So there's has to be like the

[48:37] Matt: 90s were so stable that we became complacent. And then madness started in 2015, 2010.

[48:46] Michael: So it's like you kind of have to have this, this tension of stability and chaos or order and chaos. And I think that's, I think that's something that we've tried to hold on to stability for so long and to keep the chaos at bay. And we haven't allowed those sort of like, I mean, 2008 financial crisis is a great example. We didn't allow, we didn't allow that cleansing because there's a lot of mistakes that were made.

[49:10] Matt: We didn't allow the forest fire to clean out the dead wood.

[49:13] Michael: Exactly.

[49:13] Matt: Yeah.

[49:14] Michael: And ideally what we've done is like, oh, okay, let's let the forest fire needs to burn off. And then you know what, going from here, we're just, we're going to take better care of things and allow these smaller fires to burn instead of trying to prevent them from burning. It's like, maybe we can do it more in a controlled way and not in a federal, what do you call

[49:33] Matt: it, the

[49:36] Michael: treasury and the Fed, where they're trying. Federal Reserve, trying to control the economy. What they're really trying to do is manipulate the economy because there's times when you need to let the whole point

[49:49] Matt: of an economy is you can't control it as if it's a free market economy.

[49:53] Michael: Yeah. And it's like, again, you have to allow failure and, and allow the other one, like those businesses that are antifragile, to succeed. And it just, you just kind of build on a better foundation when you do that.

[50:07] Matt: Yeah.

[50:07] Michael: And that's hard. That's a hard thing to stomach. You know, it's like,

[50:11] Matt: let me give you another piece of evidence that we're. We have no idea what our future is going to look like. Just occurred to me when I said the 90s were so stable, we became complacent and then went mad. In the 2010s, I saw this fascinating Instagram post, which I'm already embarrassed to say because there's just such a problem with I don't know what's real. I don't know what's real and what's AI anymore. I cannot look into every study, but this one at least anecdotally matches up with my what with reality that I've seen. Richard, you might laugh when I tell you what it is. Apparently, for most of human history, women's menstrual cycles were loosely coupled with the Phases of the moon.

[51:03] Michael: Oh, interesting. Okay.

[51:05] Matt: And the post I saw claims that somebody did a study and that abruptly stopped in 2010. And the hypothesis for why it stopped is phones.

[51:22] Michael: Really?

[51:22] Matt: Yes, it is. Circadian rhythm disruption via blue light and exposure to phones. IPhone came out in 2007, widely adopted by 2010. 2010, I believe is the same year that Jonathan Haidt, who wrote Cuddling American Mind. Yes, but there was a more recent one. He's been talking about phone use with teenagers for a long time and sounding the alarm on the insane uptick, especially in young women, of suicidality, of mental illness leading into the transgender craze in young women that we saw really developing around 2017. And he tracks all that to 2010 as well and comes up with the same hypothesis that that's when everybody got a phone. That's when we. And when I say phone, you have to know that I'm talking about smartphones. And I'm actually not talking about smartphones. I'm talking about iPhones and their equivalents and the Android equivalents, because the BlackBerry was a smartphone, but it didn't have this problem. And flip phones didn't have this problem. And it really isn't just the phone. I mean, it is the large brick of glowing glass you're shining in your eyes 12 hours a day. That is its own problem. But the secondary problem is social media. These phones enabled social media because we had them on us all the time. So we were connected all the time and social media has deranged us. And I also saw this other really interesting clip from Chase Hughes, who I know you fanboy for.

[53:02] Michael: I don't know about fanboy, but I do appreciate him.

[53:04] Matt: Yeah. And he was talking about short form video content like Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, Facebook, whatever their equivalent of that is, is basically brainwashing us. And he was talking about how he was talking. It was like a podcast clip. And he's talking to the person. He says if you were like, you're scrolling through reels, you watch a reel and it brings you to tears. And the person was like, yeah. And he's like, yeah, me too. And so curious, like, how could that. It's like 60 seconds long. How did I see something in 60 seconds? It brings me to tears, but it does. And then you might notice that the next two or three reels later, you're going to see something that's going to really amp you up. It might be a car accident or somebody getting shot for that matter. And there's a cycle that happens. And he says it's been studied that when you take someone down emotionally and then you amp them up into a protective state and then cycle that two or three times, that person's suggestibility goes up 10 times. So then they're going to give you an ad, they're going to cycle you through this emotional thing and then they're going to give you an ad and you're going to buy what's on that ad because you're in a suggestible state. So we're all being brainwashed to do what? I don't know. It doesn't even seem like there has to be a conspiracy theory behind this. It's like this is just the self fulfilling prophecy of the consequence of 24. 7 phone exposure with social media and short form content that this will emerge. Nobody has to have an evil plan to make it happen. So we're living in a brainwashed society, not really understanding the world we live in and doing things for reasons that aren't clear to us. And he made the point, he goes, I started thinking about this because my wife was like, why are you buying so much shit on Instagram? And as funny as I thought about you, because you said that somewhat recently, you were like, I started doing a lot of shopping on Instagram.

[55:29] Michael: No, I don't shop at all. And I think I have over a year, so I don't shop at all. And I've probably bought maybe five things online and four of them were off Instagram. Yeah.

[55:41] Matt: And I was like, oh, shit.

[55:44] Michael: Yeah.

[55:45] Matt: When we think we're living in the world of like, oh, I'm just scrolling reels while I'm on the chitter or just to distract myself for a few minutes from the things that I don't want to do. But really what's happening is I'm being brainwashed to buy things and think things and feel things that I didn't ever sign up for.

[56:08] Michael: Yeah. And that's not even mentioned that your phones are listening to you. Yeah. It's like outside, it's happened so many times where we're talking about something and then all of a sudden I see ads for that very thing.

[56:19] Matt: I'm like, I think everyone's had the experience.

[56:21] Michael: Everyone, everyone said that, but just, it's just, yeah. Insane. Goes back to the cameras watching you everywhere.

[56:27] Matt: Yeah. Whenever first people first started noticing that phenomenon, I, I read this article that this guy wrote who was a, I don't know, one of these sort of Steve Wozniak types, you know, very technical, technically, deep in his understanding and he was like, technically, it would be easier to infer what your next desire is going to be based upon your browsing habits than it would be to listen and parse what you've said.

[57:01] Michael: Well, now that we've seen. Yeah, Yeah, I can do.

[57:04] Matt: I believed him at the time. I don't believe him anymore.

[57:06] Michael: Yeah.

[57:07] Matt: I now am very suspicious even of, like, I've gotten to the point where I don't like or comment on anything on the online anymore.

[57:16] Michael: Totally.

[57:16] Matt: Because

[57:19] Michael: what.

[57:20] Matt: What pattern of behavior is that revealing in me and who's going to use that for what purpose at what time? And I'm like, I don't know that I want to leave that trail of information.

[57:34] Michael: Yeah. It's fascinating.

[57:35] Matt: Yeah.

[57:38] Michael: Well, it's even got me thinking more of like, spaces like Noster, which is like, more decentralized and you own your information and that can't be used.

[57:47] Matt: You just said a word that no one will understand. You have to explain that.

[57:51] Michael: I don't know if I could explain it technically, but it's basically like kind of like a Twitter, but you own your own information and it can't be used in a way that is, you know, against your permission. And I'll have to come back with a better explanation at some point, but it kind of is the antithesis to all that we're talking about right now. You look like you pulled it up.

[58:16] Matt: I just pulled it up because actually, I didn't know what it was. I thought you were referring to one of these Crypto Council.

[58:23] Michael: Oh. Kind of things. No, it's basically a Twitter type thing, but interesting.

[58:33] Matt: Yeah. This got me thinking about encryption in general, and I think we've all taken for granted that our messages are private and they're just definitely not.

[58:44] Michael: Yeah.

[58:45] Matt: And Elon's been talking about this a lot lately, which I'm somewhat encouraged by, about building encrypted chat into X, which it's not clear to me whether or not they've done that yet or not, but I hope they do.

[58:58] Michael: Yeah. Wasn't Telegram and Signal and WhatsApp, all those are kind of encrypted.

[59:04] Matt: So I just yesterday watched a short clip with the CEO or founder of Signal about this particular topic, and he said, everyone thinks Telegram is encrypted. It's not. Why it is that everyone thinks that is not really clear. He was like, you can check for yourself by simply going through one simple experiment, which is download Telegram, sign in, send some messages, throw your phone in a lake, go get another phone, download Telegram, sign in your Messages will still be there. It cannot be encrypted unless there's something you have and only you have, which allows you to view those messages. And a login does not.

[59:50] Michael: Doesn't cut.

[59:50] Matt: Yeah. So that means that your messages are living in plain text in the servers of Telegram's servers. So someone. I think Telegram benefits from people thinking that it's encrypted, but apparently it's not. I mean, at least if you take it on his word. And his name is moving. Moxie. What is his name? Moxie. Oh, I gotta look it up, because it's so funny.

[60:16] Michael: His discord.

[60:20] Matt: Moxie. Marlin. Spike. That's signal. And he is a. That was my first introduction to him. He's a wild guy. I looked at his Instagram, and apparently he just built a sauna on a boat. It's like a floating sauna. That's awesome. Because he's like. Apparently he's really rich, and he's like, I love swimming and I love sauna. And I thought, how could I combine the two? So interesting character, white guy with dreads.

[60:54] Michael: Well, I think that's the world I'm interested in is, like, how to give power back to the individual. Like, anything that I can do to do that, I'm so on board with. Like, that's. That's what I want to. That's what I want to build. That's what. That's the kind of future. And I feel like a lot of time we're seeing this with a lot of. A lot of this sort of, you know, with the podcast world that you and I kind of were introduced to quite a while while ago, and. And just seeing people talk about things that maybe weren't a part of the mainstream narrative or even kicking against it, you know, whether right or wrong or conspiratorial or not. Not. And I just think there's. There needs to be a lot of other voices out there rather than just everyone repeating the same stuff. Even if they get in, you know, Spats and say the wrong things, it's sort of. To me, it's kind of refreshing to. To hear that because, like, you know, even, like, you and I, I was like, hey, what's. I feel like I kind of bummed you out, and it's like, you didn't

[61:53] Matt: know what the why.

[61:55] Michael: And then, you know, the first, you know, 15 minutes of this, you just. Sorry. We're unpacking all the things that it could have. Could be.

[62:01] Matt: Yeah.

[62:02] Michael: You still didn't know. And you're like, okay, it lives Somewhere in the last 15 minutes of my. What I just said lives somewhere in this vicinity.

[62:10] Matt: Yeah.

[62:11] Michael: It might not be these things individually, but somewhere in this vicinity is kind of why I'm. I'm a little bummed out. And just to hear that more, I think is really healthy and good. It doesn't always have to be correct or right. It just needs to be thought through and worked through. It's like a process. I feel like there's so many things that we're not allowed to be a part of the process. We're just supposed to go along with whatever the narrative is or how we're supposed to be.

[62:45] Matt: Well, thanks for being the kind of friend that I can talk around a topic until I get to something that, like, until I get to discovery.

[62:54] Michael: That's called Wednesday Nights.

[62:56] Matt: It's called Wednesday Nights. It's called the Shores, baby.

[62:57] Michael: Shores, baby. Cheers. Cheers.

[63:02] Matt: Now I feel like we have to end the live stream.

[63:03] Michael: I know exactly. I looked over the. The time frame. I was like, we could. We got a 10 or 15 minutes.

[63:08] Matt: We could go longer. We could. We could stop there.

[63:12] Michael: I think that's good. Maybe we could, like, just end on a couple, like, rapping notes maybe. Okay, Jimmy, go first.

[63:18] Matt: Or. Yeah,

[63:22] Michael: well, just to kind of repeat what I've said already is I'm excited about the future. And I know there is some pain that comes with that, and I think some of it we should welcome and then also to help those who it does hurt. And I think that's the part we need to be there for our other, for other people and help them too. And I think that's where our heart needs to be, is to point to a better future and to help those around us, because it's not always going to be a better future for everyone. And I think if we pay attention and build something that's worthy, then we can kind of do that. So that's kind of like. That's kind of what I want to. I want to focus on, but it's also not. I mean, I was just reading in Mark today talking about. Jesus talks about how you always have the poor among you. Like this. This woman poured this, you know, very expensive perfume on his head. And everyone was like, that could have been sold to give to the poor.

[64:28] Matt: And.

[64:29] Michael: And he said that she will be remembered forever for what she did. She gave something that was worth a whole bunch to somebody. And I think there's something with that is like, there's always going to be horrible stuff in the world around you, but, like, what are you gonna do? And I think that's part. And to help others, too. You're not gonna be able to solve all the problems, but you can. You can build towards a better future for others and yourself. So that's what I'm. I'm excited about.

[65:01] Matt: I feel like you just recapitulated Bret Weinstein's answer to, I can't remember her name, Brandi Cruz, maybe. He interviewed her on the Dark Horse podcast this week, which I thought was a really excellent interview, and I'll put it in the show notes. But he said something about being on the left, and she was like, well, in what way are you on the left? I mean, everyone on the left says he's a conservative, he campaigned for Donald Trump, and yet he continues to say he's on the left. And she was curious about that. And I thought his answer was really good. And it was very similar to what you said, which is that we are moving into a future in which some people are going to be hurt more than others. I'm recounting what you said, not Brett, because I can't remember what he said, which is another way to say that some people are going to disproportionately benefit, and we need to build and live in a society in which we can help those who are hurt more than others. And he, Brett, believes that that puts him on the left. And I'm increasingly interested in coming to a view that abandons left right totally, although I'm curious if that's possible, because it might just be archetypal in some deep sense. But I don't think it's obvious what the definition of left and right is. I do, however, think it is obvious what conservatism is and what progressivism is. And we need both of them totally. Because to go back to the name of our show, As the island of my knowledge expands, so do the shores of my ignorance. You have to do something about the ignorance. It isn't enough to just have the island. It isn't enough to just conserve what already exists. We live in a dynamic world. We live in an entropic world full of entropy. Things are changing around us all of the time. Things that we try to conserve die anyway. You know, we're fantastically good at conserving some things, but we can't be fully. You know, the great pyramids are nothing like they were, presumably when they were built. As much as we've tried to conserve those, we have failed by degrees, by some degree. And so we also need the energy, the sort of youthful energy that says there is something new to be had and to be done, and I have the energy for it. We need both of those things. We need the wisdom of the old and the youth. The energy of the youth, the vigor of the youth.

[68:01] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[68:03] Matt: So does that put me on the left or the right? I don't know. I want both.

[68:09] Michael: Yeah.

[68:10] Matt: And I'm perfectly comfortable with there being people further left than me and further right than me. And I think the entire country would do good to consider that for themselves.

[68:21] Michael: Yeah, that's true. To the shores.

[68:26] Matt: Well, cheers to that.

[68:28] Michael: Cheers.

[68:29] Matt: Staying on the shores.

[68:30] Michael: Staying on the shores. Sa.