Don't Let the Old Man In

[0:23] Michael: Hey. Hey. How's it going? Yeah. Welcome to the shores. Welcome to the shores. Right there

[0:28] Matt: to the shores. How you feeling?

[0:33] Michael: I don't know. I was excited to hear that you were excited about building things again.

[0:37] Matt: I am. I feel really excited about building things again. It's been such a welcome return in my motivation, in my heart.

[0:48] Michael: What is it about building things that is different from what you've been doing?

[0:56] Matt: That's. That's a really good question. I mean,

[0:59] Michael: you've been building things. I

[1:00] Matt: have been building things well, for the whole, you know, in the arc of my post college days now, sort of 22 years. First half of that, I was an entrepreneur and I was building things. I built a bunch of different companies. All of them ultimately failed. There was some success in between. And then I went and worked in sort of big agency land, worked for Accenture for a long time, and then worked for a couple of other companies. And now I'm back at least sort of on the side building my own things again with the help of openclaw, which is really interesting because it's kind of like I've got an employee that's working for me. And I have a lot of observations about that. But I think the difference between building things and building things, I mean, because I built things for those companies that I worked for.

[2:03] Michael: Yeah, some pretty cool stuff.

[2:04] Matt: Yeah, some very, very cool stuff. But I think when you're building something that you're doing for yourself, not necessarily for your saving, you're building it for other people, but no one else is telling you to do it. Right. There's this real sense of feeling the potential of what it could be. You know, when I was building software for Accenture, for example, I always knew the end at the beginning. The end was you're going to work on this thing that's been scoped out already, you're going to meet the acceptance criteria, it's going to last, excuse me, six months to a year, maybe two years, and then you're going to say goodbye and go work on something else. So the end is known at the beginning, but building something, building your own idea, the end isn't known at the beginning. And there's a massive risk in that. But everyone knows that massive risk is really exciting.

[3:07] Michael: I don't know about everybody,

[3:08] Matt: maybe not everybody feels that way

[3:10] Michael: in a room, kind of by ourselves, maybe in some regard.

[3:13] Matt: Well, I think it's really exciting because you don't know what this thing could be, which means it could be something amazing, could also be something terrible. But the possibility that it could be something amazing is so intoxicating. It's just. I love that feeling. I mean, it's sort of the feeling of I get, like. If I write a song, you know, you start to get a glimmer of, like, oh, there's something here, but you don't know what it is. You're discovering it as you're writing it. I love how I saw this quote from J.R.R. tolkien about writing Lord of the Rings, and he talks about how at the beginning, Gandalf was known to him, but Strider was not known to him. When he showed up in the corner of the pub, he said, I was just as surprised as the hobbits were.

[4:02] Michael: That's awesome. I love that

[4:03] Matt: a lot of writers talk about that, about how they discover their characters as they write them.

[4:08] Michael: Yeah.

[4:08] Matt: And that's such a motivating force, because you want to keep writing because you want to figure it out. You want to figure out who these people are. And I think it's the same with building, Whether it's a company or a software product. When you're sort of setting out into the great unknown, you're delighted to find what you find. And so it's very invigorating. And it feels to me like very much more meaningful than. Than producing something that someone else has asked you to produce.

[4:39] Michael: Well, I'm curious because, like, how is this different? Because you started Sovereign Goods probably two years ago, and so how is that different from what you're doing right now? Because it does seem like I've noticed a change in you, and I think Sovereign Goods was sort of like a. What do you call it, A salve. When you put it on a wound or whatever, it was kind of like, oh, I see my entrepreneurial spirit again. But it wasn't as motivating as. It wasn't motivating.

[5:05] Matt: I mean, it was motivating.

[5:07] Michael: I

[5:08] Matt: mean, I think there's a lot of sort of, if you kind of examine that timeline, some fairly large things that were going on in my life right at the time that I started Sovereign Goods.

[5:16] Michael: Yeah.

[5:17] Matt: And I think it was, you know, in some sense, a salve. But also, Sovereign Goods was a much more experimental endeavor. You know, I'd never dabbled in selling, like, physical products. I never really spent much time dabbling in marketing or advertising. But definitely it was very motivating. When I started it, I was staying up super late nights working on designs and I was really motivated by it. I still am. But I think a couple of things I'm working on right now, it's not as experimental. I know what I'm doing and so I can sort of see the path, whereas the sovereign goods, I don't really see the path. I'm just kind of trying things and seeing like, oh, I just wasted $500 there, maybe try something different. But I know so much about software delivery that I feel really empowered to execute on this.

[6:15] Michael: Yeah.

[6:16] Matt: And so that's been taking it. It's been kind of taking over my short term vision a little bit.

[6:29] Michael: How so?

[6:30] Matt: I'm just thinking about it constantly.

[6:32] Michael: Oh, gotcha, Gotcha.

[6:33] Matt: Yeah.

[6:34] Michael: Yeah.

[6:35] Matt: But it does feel good and I, I really am excited and hopeful to get back to building businesses and to, you know, even with sovereign goods to keep pushing that forward. I'm really maybe more excited and motivated about that right now than I was a couple of months ago.

[6:54] Michael: Yeah. Is it, is it, is it the tools that kind of have been more motivating for you or is it the things themselves?

[7:05] Matt: It's both. The tools have helped me see paths where I didn't see paths previously. The tools, oddly enough, have. So when I was building businesses in the early 2010s, one of the things, and I've talked about this before about failure, is information. There's no difference between failing and learning. One of the failures that I had in those days was that I really tried to do everything myself. Even though I did actually have some employees, I really tried to build everything myself, which means that I was constantly narrowly focused on the task at hand. And now I have an AI employee who's executing really well, such that I can actually broaden my view a little bit. It's allowed me to start thinking about, to see momentum and things getting done. And then I can actually think about what is the bigger goal of the bigger picture, what is the vision of this thing that we're doing? And that's actually allowed me to see some things. There's some confluence between sovereign goods and some of the other things that I'm thinking, thinking about. And I'm starting to see like. Oh, like an even larger vision that incorporates those things together and then that's even really more exciting.

[8:30] Michael: Yeah, that's cool. So it's like the. Your employee kind of has given you more room to dream.

[8:37] Matt: Yeah,

[8:38] Michael: yeah,

[8:38] Matt: yeah.

[8:39] Michael: That's crazy.

[8:42] Matt: So

[8:46] Michael: I'm glad you're excited.

[8:47] Matt: Yeah.

[8:48] Michael: No, I love the way that you talked about it. Like at dinner. Tonight was just like the idea to think bigger picture because you were saying, like. And I think that's probably one of your strengths, too. Well, big picture, too, but the. You're very detail oriented when you dive into something, like, you get way into it and how this is kind of giving you a little bit of freedom to be up and more big picture kind of stuff. Yeah, that's cool. I like that.

[9:17] Matt: Yeah, it's been very exciting. Speaking of big picture, do you feel like you have a big thing left in you?

[9:24] Michael: Oh, dude, that's great. Yeah. We were talking just before this about Billy Bob Thornton in season two in Landman. If you haven't seen, this is spoiler alert. But something happened to him, and

[9:40] Matt: I don't think we have to spoil it.

[9:42] Michael: That's true.

[9:42] Matt: He just has this quote where some crazy things have happened and he's kind of at the end of his rope or the bottom of the barrel or whatever, and he comes up with a way out, but it's super risky, and it's sort of like big, Big succeed, big fail kind of stakes. And he says because he's older in the show and he's sort of. He's

[10:05] Michael: probably in his 60s a bit.

[10:06] Matt: I think he's doing sort of like an inner monologue, and he's like, I don't know if I've got one last home run left in me, but it's time to find out something like that.

[10:14] Michael: I think he's talking to his dad, Elliot. Whatever his name is. Sam Elliott.

[10:20] Matt: Sam Elliott.

[10:20] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a. It's such an interesting thing, too. Especially. You and I were kind of in our midlife right now, and I'm starting to move out of that. And, you know, you probably have, like. I'm 48. Probably have a one or two more big things, and. And that's not a bad thing, but big things take, like, five to 10 years to really play out. And I think you don't realize that until, as you get. Until you're older and you think, oh, I'm gonna do this in two months and it's gonna be awesome. Yeah, I think I learned that in business really quickly. It's like. No, it's like, this is like a. You know, you're three to five years. If you're. If you're. If you're rocking it, then that's pretty awesome.

[11:04] Matt: Well, it's interesting. You just said, I feel like I have one to two or two to three big things left in me. That's. That. That seems to Me to be a change. Because before Landman, before OpenClaw, there was years where you and I had conversations because you've obviously built a business and I've built a business and lost a business. And as we, I think, you know, got into our early 40s, we would flirt with conversations like, we don't know if we have it in us anymore to do it

[11:35] Michael: again. Totally.

[11:36] Matt: And you'd ask me, like, do you feel like you have it in you to grind again? And we'd have these conversations like, I hope so, but I really don't know. So I feel like to hear you say, I've got a couple big things left in me is a shift that's a transformation to a position of strength and hope, which I'm glad to hear.

[11:57] Michael: Yeah, well, it's just different. I mean, you know, I think the 2019, we opened up our roasting facility and coffee shop is kind of two concepts in one. And our airport location opened up, and there's about. Even in the COVID it was still. Still starting businesses. And, you know, it's like, it really is a high cost. And I think just having so much fail during COVID you know, it basically shut down five businesses during COVID

[12:33] Matt: Oh, yeah, that's right.

[12:35] Michael: Yeah. Five businesses. And, you know, and that's just draining. And trying to rebuild your business a couple times in the aftermath of COVID is just sort of. It's tiring. And you kind of. Kind of just like, do I have it in me to grind? And I think that's the part that you kind of. When you're young, it's sort of like you just have lots of energy, you know, and. Yeah. So I think it just. There's just kind of this reality, too. And it's like, I love my family, and I want to spend time with them. And I know there's. There's just costs to grinding and.

[13:11] Matt: Well, there's another aspect of that, too. Like, there is a cost to grinding, and when you're young, that cost is a lot lower. Or maybe you don't realize you're paying it. Totally.

[13:19] Michael: That's fine.

[13:20] Matt: But also, I think as you go through life and you get a little bit older and you try and fail enough times, you get. It's easy to become. What is it?

[13:33] Michael: Risk averse.

[13:34] Matt: Yeah. Or resentful or complacent or sort of like, oh, I have this really good idea. But, yeah, it'll probably just fail like all the others.

[13:42] Michael: Yeah.

[13:42] Matt: I mean, getting your heart broken sucks. You get your heart broken seven times you might decide that dating isn't for you.

[13:52] Michael: Yeah, totally. I'm gonna be a hermit.

[13:55] Matt: Yeah. I mean I think that. And there's multiple ways to look at things all the time, but I can look at my own past and all the things that I've done and say, oh yeah, pretty, everything I've done has been a failure. And that can really woo you into a position of inaction.

[14:16] Michael: Yeah. Which is interesting because earlier you said like, you know, failure is information.

[14:20] Matt: Yes.

[14:21] Michael: And it's like there's, there's that attitude that's actually motivating and pushing forward. But then sometimes it can be the debilitating thing too.

[14:28] Matt: Yeah.

[14:29] Michael: Just like can't. I can't just catch a break like somewhere I

[14:32] Matt: know

[14:33] Michael: just one.

[14:36] Matt: Well, I wonder if there's something false about that too because I feel that way all the time. Can we just get a win? Fill the tank of motivation. Fill the tank with energy to sustain the next failure. And I think you hear that a lot in business. I've spent enough time working with startups in various capacities, with young, highly motivated, Self starter, self directing type people. And you hear people talk a lot about how we need a quick win.

[15:12] Michael: Yeah.

[15:12] Matt: We need something that keeps us going because it. In startup land, sometimes it can be day to day. Like we don't know if tomorrow the lights go off, we. So we need a quick win.

[15:22] Michael: Yeah.

[15:23] Matt: You know, or you might hear somebody say, you know, I want you to. I think you need to get a win to prove yourself. Something like that. But I wonder if that's too narrow of a way to look at it. I mean.

[15:38] Michael: Oh, it definitely is the people.

[15:39] Matt: Yeah, you're right. Definitely it is. But it seems like the people who are sort of ruthlessly willing to learn from their mistakes are the people who actually win bigly. To use a Scott Adams turn

[15:59] Michael: also, like, what does it mean to win that

[16:01] Matt: way? He used to be at least. Yeah. What does it mean to win?

[16:04] Michael: Yeah,

[16:04] Matt: it's a good question. I feel like Chamath Palihapitiya is that way.

[16:16] Michael: Yeah. Because I think right now we're speaking more financially because I think that takes me back to. Cause I have the same feelings that you're talking about. It's like, can I just get a win? And you know, it's like. But when I examine my life, it's like I have an amazing wife that I've been married to for 24 years. Like I've got five kids that I love and I like to be with. It's like, dude, That's a fucking win. No matter what else like, happens to you, it's like, that's a win. And so there is this. And Alison and I were talking about this a couple of weeks ago about just having a position of gratitude. I think it's called something else, but I'm gonna say position of gratitude. It just changes your mindset. It makes you see the world in a completely different way. Like, if you're always like, I can. I gotta go win. You know, it's like you're just more of looking at the. The negative parts that are not working out and.

[17:18] Matt: Right.

[17:18] Michael: There's something about turning or paying attention to the things that are working. And whenever you have gratitude, it actually, like, kind of like. It's like you lift your head up, you're like, oh, huh. It's a beautiful day today. Yeah. Where when you. But when you get to focusing on what you lack, it's sort of like that's like a deep, dark hole that you. Obviously, there's things you need. You need to be, you know. You know, retrospective. Yeah. And, like, look and see the places that you are, have shortcomings, and I think that's valuable, but that's not a place to live. Like, you need to have gratitude and thankfulness for what you have. And I think it does give you. And I also want to. That when we have this conversation, Alison's, like, saying how much that, like, changes your brain chemistry and just your outlook on life in general and with depression or whatever it might be, is like just having a. A position of. Of gratitude kind of changes you, but.

[18:18] Matt: Well, I think that's definitely true. I mean, I. I'm trying. I'm just searching my memory banks, but I feel like recently I saw some, like, scientific research sort of proving that out, but I can't remember what to say on that, but

[18:33] Michael: I think she was probably referencing that too.

[18:35] Matt: Yeah, I think it was going around the socials.

[18:37] Michael: Yeah, totally. It made the circuit.

[18:39] Matt: Yeah. Mm. Well, it's just references. Iain McGilchrist's point in the Master and His Emissary about how I can't remember how. How does he say it? Things are how you treat them. They become how you pay attention to them.

[18:58] Michael: Yeah.

[19:01] Matt: There's, you know, us what post enlightenment, postmodern modern individuals think that things are what they are, but they're not. Things are what you make them. And I think that applies even to yourself. It's like, you will become the way you treat yourself.

[19:24] Michael: What's funny, because it's like, it's Acknowledging something that is inherently true. So I think that's the part. Because if you do this, if you play this exercise and you. And you treat things in a way that is not inherently true, so it's like, hey, Michael, be positive. But you're a dickhead to everybody. It's like, it's. It's really difficult to have that sort of impact on the world or on yourself if you're not really paying attention to what is there. You know, I think that's. I think there's something really, because, like, the world is not just what we make it, but there's something about paying attention that opens up the world as it can be and could be. You know, and it's. It's not something arbitrary. It's something that's actually there. You know, like a. Like a relationship. You know, it can be really good. You just have to pay attention. And it's not that you're making it up. It's like by paying attention, it manifests in front of you. It's because there's something there, but it

[20:30] Matt: brings. It brings sort of forward. What you pay attention to is what will come forward. So it may be that you are both very kind, but also very bitter. And if I pay attention to the bitterness in you, then the bitterness is what will come forward.

[20:50] Michael: Totally.

[20:51] Matt: If I pay attention to the kindness in you, then that is what will come forward out of you.

[20:54] Michael: Totally.

[20:55] Matt: And in that way, you become what my attention pays attention. What my attention.

[21:05] Michael: What the cost of your attention brings forward.

[21:07] Matt: Yeah, I don't know.

[21:08] Michael: I know where you're going.

[21:09] Matt: I got totally hung up on those words.

[21:10] Michael: Well, I think this is something. And coffee. That. This is totally. That. That's just. I just Learned over the 23 years. Shoot. Yeah, whatever 23 years of coffee is. I always had a different relationship with people. Some people would hate certain customers, and I got along with them really well. And there was something that I just kind of like. Like, why is that? And it's something that always stuck out to me is. Is they would get annoyed by, like, particulars, like, maybe the voice that. The. The tone of voice they would use with ordering their. Their. Their drinks or something like that. And if you just realize that there's something else there and you can kind of, like, get past the bullshit, you know, it's like. And find that spark. And we've talked about this many times on the. On the. It's like there really is something that, like. It's like life starts to shine or shimmer, you know, And I can always see that. I mean, I do this with my kids and my wife, too. It's like when I forget to look and I just see, like, they're wearing. They're wearing dirty clothes and they smell bad. It's like, oh, my gosh. It's like that's all you can see. See, because it's invading your. Your senses and, you know, whatever.

[22:23] Matt: Yeah,

[22:24] Michael: it's like. But then once you're like, oh, oh, I love this woman. She's so beautiful. Like, you know, it's like. And it's just all sudden. You're just. It's something. Something shifts and you see something completely different. And then it's interesting because then that also starts to come forward out of them, too. And there's something about that. Like, you can call that out of somebody and. And I think the more that we do that, I think the world could be a great place. In the podcast,

[22:52] Matt: Mike dropped. No, I mean, it's really like an example, even just from this conversation. You have been pointing out to me that you've been noticing some. A change in me, that I'm more excited about things than I was for a while. And having. Having you notice me makes me think there is something really real about that. Totally. And so I give more attention to it in myself and less attention to the, you know, the currents of failure and depression and sadness or whatever. I'm like, oh, no, there's something growing. Let's go check on the thing that's growing. Not the thing that I'm just used to.

[23:38] Michael: Yeah. I mean, because you see this especially in abusive relationships where, you know, the. A partner or a kid or whatever it is, it's just not good enough. There's nothing that they can do that's good enough, you know, and they're just looking for something to kind of like, you know, just one little word or, hey, how are you doing? Like, makes them come alive because somebody sees them other than the failure that they are, you know? Yeah. I think that's. That's something that we just don't realize how powerful we are and. And how we affect our. The environment around us. I think that's. As I'm. As I'm saying this, I've got, like, all these images going through my head. I'm like, golly, I don't. I don't really. I think I've. I've forgotten. I've forgotten a lot of the things that. Like that.

[24:31] Matt: Yeah,

[24:33] Michael: it's like, what do you want to call forth not only from yourself, but it's from those around you, you know, it's like. Because even like in, in acknowledging that about you, it also, it also brings me up too. Does that make sense? Like, oh, that's cool.

[24:49] Matt: Yeah.

[24:50] Michael: Oh, I like that. I want some of that. You know, like you can kind of like it starts to like manifest in you too. So it's like, I think if you discover things in other people, it also starts to like waking that, wake it, wake that up in you too. You know,

[25:06] Matt: just play with an idea for a little bit. Because you said, you know, we have an effect on reality. Seems to me like we are invited to be something more like co creators of reality that, well, if you believe that reality was created, let's just start there. And you are an active agent in it. And that reality is something which is unfolding. It isn't, you know, it exists in the fourth dimension of time. So it's happening, it's currently happening. We don't know how it will happen. But we get to use our unique attention to bring forth parts of the reality as it unfolds. That really does make you in part a co creator of reality. And what an honor, what a privilege to say I'm a part of this unfolding. I'm not just caught up in it.

[26:24] Michael: Yeah,

[26:24] Matt: I'm a part of it. And you look around at all the beauty in the world, you know, it's like I've got this large photo of. I can't remember which mountain it is. I believe that's in Colorado. My brother took that. It was so gorgeous. It reminds me of Big Bend. It's one of my favorite places. I thought it was Big Bend. It kind of looks like near the Santa Elena Canyon. You go to these places and it's just, there's tons. There's so many of these places around the world that are just jaw droppingly beautiful. You go to Yosemite and it's unbelievable. That's in your reality. And not just that, it's in your reality in the sense that you can go look at it. It's in the reality that's unfolding out before you that you have a part in creating. How much, I mean, how much power do you have if that's the case?

[27:25] Michael: Yeah,

[27:27] Matt: I mean, what did Jesus mean when he said, you will do greater things than these? Referring to his own acts in the world?

[27:37] Michael: Yeah, yeah, that one's always kind of always stuck out to me. I, I just like that. Just in this whole sense of like you don't know what's possible so why are you pretending like you do? Like, I think that's what that speaks to me. And, like, then it beca. It makes me feel like an explorer again. And I think that's something that sometimes life and circumstances beat the explorer out of you.

[28:06] Matt: Yeah,

[28:06] Michael: it's. It's like you start to, like the. The whole thing. It's like. It's just houses all around me as I'm driving. It's like. It's not a house. It's not a specific house. It's not Beverly's house. It's not Michael. It's like, it's just a house. And the world

[28:20] Matt: start to be surrounded by anonymity.

[28:23] Michael: The

[28:23] Matt: world starts to look like the neighborhood in A Wrinkle in Time, where Charles Wallace ends up. All the kids bounce the ball at the exact same time, and the mothers come out at the exact same time, and it's some, like, weird Charles Hitchcock version of hell.

[28:43] Michael: But it's totally understandable. I mean, because, like, I've. I've. I've lived that.

[28:46] Matt: Yeah.

[28:46] Michael: At different times in my life where that's not my kid. It's a kid that's not my wife. It's a wife.

[28:53] Matt: Yeah.

[28:54] Michael: And it's not Matt. It's a mat. You know, you just. I

[28:59] Matt: am a mat.

[29:00] Michael: You are a Matt. But it's like, it does. And there's these moments where you kind of, like, are snapped out of it, and you're like, oh, wait a minute. There's, like, things going on here.

[29:10] Matt: Yeah, Well, I was reflecting about that even on my own internal desires. Like, I have things that I want to do or things that I want done. Like, if I imagine, you know, the next year, five years of my life, there are things that I would like to come to fruition. And I guess you can sort of do two things with that. You can say, well, those things are really unlikely to occur. It's probably much more important that I just keep my head down and make sure that nothing catastrophically bad happens, that I can pay my bills and, you know, put food on the table or whatever.

[29:45] Michael: Yeah.

[29:46] Matt: And then I was thinking, and this is one of the. The paths for me into this idea that we're co creators of reality. It's like, wait, no, I actually believe that God gave me a unique character and gave me the desires that I have for good reason. That doesn't mean that I can be irresponsible. But if I don't act on these desires, Well, then they won't come to be. Then something is lost. Or maybe another way you could think about it is that I'm so fond of quoting Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk. You're elusive, genius,

[30:31] Michael: totally.

[30:33] Matt: But she talks about how I think it's Tom Waits talks about the creative process as he'll be driving down the 101 or whatever, and this beautiful song comes into his mind, but he's driving. He doesn't have pen and paper or anything. And, you know, he's probably quoting from before iPhone, so he couldn't, like, record it or something. And he's like, I just gotten to where I just addressed the idea. And I say, can't you see I'm driving? Go bother someone else, like Leonard Cohen or, you know. So maybe there's kind of two models to think about it with. One is whatever is inspired in you that wants to make something come into the world. If you decline it, either it doesn't come into the world, or maybe it goes and finds somebody else. But there's an invitation there. Whether you think about it as an idea or like a song is an idea that's looking for a home, or you think about your own desires as something unique to you. I think either way, you decline the invitation when you just say, well, I'm not going to do it. And I was thinking to myself the other morning as I was reflecting on this, it's like, I have these things that I want. If I truly want them, then I have to go do them. If I don't go do them, then I don't want them. Or I'm turning down the invitation. But at the very least, I have to be honest about what that is.

[32:09] Michael: I think it's interesting because there's also a certain approach to this because I've seen it where with myself and with others is this whole, like, I have this thing and I'm going to go after it. And it's interesting. There's a big difference in how you go after it. One is you go after it as a solid object, and the other, you go after it as it's becoming. And I think those are two different ways to, like, approach it. I think the.

[32:35] Matt: That's interesting.

[32:36] Michael: It's like when you go after something as a solid object, I think you will always be disappointed. But if you go after something as. As if something is becoming, I think that's when you really discover something valuable. And gold. Because if it's a solid object, then you know how to make it and manipulate it and. And wrestle it into existence.

[32:58] Matt: Well, I mean, isn't that's Just fundamentally true. At a relational level, it's like you go after any relationship as if it's a solid object.

[33:07] Michael: Totally.

[33:08] Matt: You're going to get rejected. You're going to get bounced out of the wrestling rink.

[33:12] Michael: Totally. So I think that's just. I think that's like. It's just a good distinction to make, because when you're going after something, it's like you actually don't know what you're going after. I've always found that with questions, I've always said this. Like, I asked God a lot of questions and he's always answered them. And. And a lot of times I find that. That I'm asking a question that's actually not the question I'm asking, but it's sort of like, no, that's good. That's a good place to start. But that's actually not what you're asking. But you have to ask the question that you have at the moment because that question will get you to the actual question that you're asking.

[33:50] Matt: You have to ask the question that you have in order to discover that it's the wrong question in order to formulate a better question. Totally. It's a process of refinement.

[34:02] Michael: I

[34:02] Matt: think that's why I've always said I love questions, because they're supremely. You're wondering about something that you don't know. You're forming a hypothesis. I mean, the question is a hypothesis in a sense, because it frames the terms of what it is that you're seeking. And then you find out whether or not that all falls apart. And when it does, you have to think, oh, well, what's okay. What actually fits in here? What actually stands up to reality.

[34:34] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's fascinating. Well, because you do see the whole, like, even, like old people will sometimes get so fixed in their. Their way that they look at life. You see this mostly with older people as it kind of solidifies and, like, I've got to figure it out. I already know, and this is just the way it is.

[34:54] Matt: Yeah.

[34:55] Michael: And. And it seems like they kind of just. They start to. It's like they start dying.

[35:01] Matt: Well, I think this is why TS Eliot says old men should be explorers. I mean, it's. It's a.

[35:06] Michael: Beat me to it.

[35:07] Matt: It's a call to say, yeah, you need to. You need to not say, I don't know if I have another home run in me. You need to continue taking the risk of exploration.

[35:23] Michael: Yeah.

[35:24] Matt: As

[35:25] Michael: a homerum. Are you. The thing that you think a Home Run is. Could be something completely different, but you should always have that position or attitude.

[35:32] Matt: Alison sent us some. I can't remember who it was. Oh, some actor. I can't remember who it was. Was talking about aging, and he said that Clint Eastwood. He asked Clint Eastwood one time, like, how he stayed young. And Clint Eastwood said, just don't let the old man in. A terrible Clint Eastwood impression, But

[35:57] Michael: it's pretty good.

[35:58] Matt: Don't let the old man in. What is that saying? It's like, don't let the. I'm rigid in my ways. I'm not willing to change anything. Don't let that in. That's what kills you. That's what ages you. If you want to stay young, you just don't let that guy in. And you keep dreaming and you keep scheming, and you keep accepting the invitation of inspiration and say, I'm willing to have my heart broken again. And it's not just because I know it's not just heartbreak. There's also the love part. There's also the exciting anticipation part. There's also the comfort, rest, and security part. And no part lasts. Everything comes to an end. I mean, the price of life is death. You will pay that price.

[36:58] Michael: Yeah.

[36:59] Matt: No one gets out of that. The thing that you do have control over is life, not death. You have control of some kind of control, some sort of participatory. I want to stop using the word control is. That's not right. You get to participate, which means you get to play the game, which means the game is different because you're playing it.

[37:25] Michael: Yeah. I kind of want to make a. It's a little bit of a sidetrack, but it kind of has to do with a little of what we're talking about. So there's this. I'm watching JJK with my kids.

[37:38] Matt: What is that?

[37:39] Michael: Jujutsu Kaisen. It's anime.

[37:41] Matt: Okay.

[37:42] Michael: Absolutely fascinating. So, like, the kids wanted to watch it with us, and. And the philosophy behind it is phenomenal. Really? It's so great. And so my kids were like, so, do you like it? I'm like, oh, it's fascinating. Like, and I was explaining a few things, and then the other night, Hannah was like, I heard you go, oh. Like, why'd you do that? I was like, well, because, like, there's something very true about that. And, you know, in the. How they. How they demonstrated that. And there's this idea. I forgot how they said it in the movie, but it's like a dome. And so whoever has the stronger Dome wins. And the whole idea is like, you can. You have. They have these powers, and you can construct a reality around your. It's. In this case, it's kind of like your enemy. And then the environment actually works to your favor. So they have to actually interact in your environment. But if the other person's stronger, they can overpower your environment and make you interact in their environment. And so this idea of, like,

[38:48] Matt: sounds very much like Chase Hughes when he's talking about how to negotiate or get

[38:53] Michael: the

[38:53] Matt: attention of the room.

[38:56] Michael: No, it's very true. It's like you create an atmosphere around you, and it's like someone who has gratitude comes into a room where there's not a lot of gratitude. It changes the atmosphere. And I mean, you experienced it. And I remember this. I had this one experience. I don't mention the person's name, but it was, like, probably 10 years ago. And I remember I was talking to him and I was just like, oh, you control this room. And I just. It was just. It was just. I kind of. I don't know, I probably just kind of sat there for a second. I was like. Because I just. I could see it. And I was just like. He was just so. His personality just draws you in. And I was just. Man, that is a. That is. I was kind of, like, amazed at that. And. And so I think since that. That kind of, like, named it for me at that point. And I kind of just had noticed that, like, where, you know, like. Like, if you go into a room, just, like, who's controlling the environment? Somebody's controlling the environment. And a lot of times it'll be the speaker or the company that put on the event or. Or whatever it might be that's kind of, like, more rigid, but even within that, you can kind of tell the actors.

[40:08] Matt: Yeah.

[40:09] Michael: Like. Well,

[40:10] Matt: I've also seen it be somebody in the audience.

[40:12] Michael: Oh, true.

[40:14] Matt: Or in, you know, in the lower ranks of the business hierarchy, typically that person is contrarian. Yeah. They can control the whole vibe of a meeting.

[40:34] Michael: Totally.

[40:34] Matt: Yeah.

[40:35] Michael: No, I mean, it's. It's. It's really fascinating to see. So anyways, watching the jjk, it was just. There's like, a lot of different concepts like that that were in it. And it's like you kind of see how the reality changes depending on your perspective of the environment. And whoever has the greater perspective usually wins, like, the. The. The influence of what's happening in that space. And I've seen it times where in my company, I've lost that influence. You Know, it's like, this is my company. I'm responsible to create the environment. And that's something that. And I've seen it. I've seen that. I've seen times where I've lost that.

[41:15] Matt: Yeah.

[41:16] Michael: And. And a lot of times when that happens, it's like it. It loses that unifying principle because, you know, we're the owners, you know, and the. The drivers of the vision. And so sometimes those things get hijacked and have to rebuild, rebuild that. You know, even with myself, even when we're talking about seeing the gold in people, it's like I see times where I forget that or I lose that, and then I have to, like, find it again, and then I have to go look for it. I have to be more intentional. And then at some point, it becomes less intentional, and it becomes more a way of being. And I think those are the things I want to continue to grow in. Is like, that. Sort of like becoming that, whatever that is.

[42:04] Matt: I was just. I was going to ask you why you think it is that we humans are. That way we can learn something and find it profoundly true and then forget it. And I wonder if it has something to do with. Our spiritual being, our soul.

[42:26] Michael: Okay.

[42:27] Matt: I can't remember who it is, what the title of the book is. I actually haven't read it, but my mom read it after my dad died. And it. This man, this author, describes life as. Sort of the second in utero. Like you are. You were born of a mother, and you spend nine months in her uterus. Your spiritual self, your soul, is in utero right now, and it will be born in death and in the. In the throes of the transition between dreaming and waking up. Like, I'm sure everybody can relate to this. You have a dream, and the dream is really powerful and really vibrant. And sometimes even in your dream, there's some awareness of. You have some awareness that you're dreaming, and you're like, oh, this is really profound. I need to remember this. I feel like I'm learning a lesson right now that I need to take with me. And then you wake up when you wake up into your bedroom in your bed, and you're like, oh, it's morning. And, oh, man, I forgot to clean. Clean the coffee pot. I got to go do that, and I've got to get to work and all of this. And then five minutes later, you're like, oh, but that dream, and you can only recover bits and pieces of it. So you had something that you knew and knew to be True, or thought might be true. It was powerful and profound, and you wanted to hold on to it. But in that space between dreaming and waking up, parts of it get lost. So I wonder if there's some sense in which, over the course of your life, your soul is waking up, and so you don't have constant communion with the truth yet you're still half asleep. And so you learn some things and then you forget them.

[44:29] Michael: Yeah. I don't know if you want to go here, but I had, like, a. I had a thought I'd take a walk so much, twice a day. But, like, I was thinking about, like, the compacting when the agent has to, like, kind of, like, shed some memory. I was just like, oh, my gosh. I do that and I. And I come back and I'm not. I'm less informed than what I was before. And it's like we kind of take on all this stuff around us. There's so much and more than we could ever even really understand. The amount of things that are happening, whether it's relational data or environment or whatever it might be. And it's like we just can't hold all that. And so we simplify things down to useful tabs, you know? And then, like, at some point, we're like, oh, I forgot that. And then you kind of pull that file out of the. The file of the file cabinet. You're like, oh, how did I forget that? That's amazing. You start going through it, and then the richness comes back, and it's like, oh. But you also know you can't hold on to that because there's. There's so many things that are. That are happening around you. And it's like. But then I think you start to kind of realize, like, there are certain things that. No, this file needs to stay out. Like, I need to make a conscious effort to keep this out.

[45:56] Matt: Which is, I think, why people. I don't know how much people do this anymore, but, you know, it was a big thing when I was growing up. It's like, you should memorize passages.

[46:07] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[46:07] Matt: Whether it's from the Bible or other great famous works, poetry, sonnets, you know, even music, for that matter. It's like, you should memorize things. There are things worth committing to memory such that you have them. You cannot lose them. Yeah. I was thinking today about some of the things I'm working on, and I was like, I probably need to start working on setting up a legal structure here. And then something in me, like, got dizzy thinking about doing that. Like, that's a big hill to climb. And then I was checking myself. I was like, I used to do this once every three months.

[46:46] Michael: Totally.

[46:47] Matt: And it was. And that's before AI. That's before the Internet, really, Even what it is now.

[46:53] Michael: Totally.

[46:54] Matt: Because before social media, in a lot of cases, I didn't think twice about it.

[46:58] Michael: Yeah,

[46:59] Matt: I would set up an LLC. I probably. I set up way too many LLCs.

[47:02] Michael: I probably have 50 LLCs. Honestly, like, it's crazy.

[47:06] Matt: And I wonder. And I think that's just one of those, like. Yeah, I put those files away. The intimate knowledge I knew I had, I kind of let go of it. But I have this theory that the file analogy is the wrong analogy for memory.

[47:24] Michael: Oh, interesting. Okay.

[47:25] Matt: Have you ever seen. So there's videos of this. There's one that I'm thinking of. There's a man, and he has a steel plate about the size of this table, maybe 3ft in diameter. It's round. And he sprinkled a bunch of salt on it. And then he takes a violin bow and he rubs it on the edge. And the salt spontaneously forms into these patterns. And then depending on where he sort of touches the plate, it changes the harmonics and the salt shakes different patterns. Diamonds here, squares there, triangles there. And I think that that's a better analogy for memory. You know, it's not like the pattern was there and you accessed it. You created the pattern by asserting vibration. Which is why I think. And I think this theory fits well with things like smell. Brings back memory very powerfully.

[48:28] Michael: Yeah.

[48:29] Matt: It isn't that. It reminded you of a thing that you had forgotten. It's almost like. If I play a song and then I play that song again, the second time I play it, it isn't a memory of the first. I think that we can, and often do mostly remember things because we are a string that has gotten plucked.

[49:04] Michael: Mm.

[49:05] Matt: And we are again, vibrating in a particular way.

[49:09] Michael: That's interesting. Well, I think it might be semantical because, like, when I think of a file, it's like shorthand. I love. That's why I love having my books. Because I can just look at a book and all of a sudden a richness comes out that has nothing to do with the words in the page. It's like where I was when I read that, what year it was, how I was feeling, what impact that on me. And it's sort of like it's like that file or that, like, it might be like a. A stagnant looking thing. Like if you Just look through it. It wouldn't mean anything to anybody, but it's actually like things that activate into like this whole like sort of like the world opens up, you know?

[49:52] Matt: Yeah.

[49:53] Michael: So it's like, that's why I love my books. Is, is I just sometimes like, if I'm having trouble thinking through something, I'll just look at a book like, oh yeah, that was him. Oh. When I read Ayn Rand, that was kind of a fascinating time. And it's just like, it just starts, kick starting all these different memories and ideas and like the, the texture of the moment, you know, and, and I love that. I love that idea.

[50:19] Matt: Well, I mean, even as you're describing that, I'm like, it sounds to me like, you know, in, in one moment you were a placid lake of water, and then you look at the book and that throws a stone in and all of a sudden these ripples come streaming out. That's, that's what I'm talking about with memory being like the steel plate that's vibrated with a string that's plucked.

[50:46] Michael: Yeah.

[50:47] Matt: You know, these things. A memory isn't just a file. It's. It's some, it's some instigation that propagates out. And you say it's that you use that word texture. It's like it propagates through where I was, how I was feeling, the things I was going through at the time. It can recall all of these things because all of these things are a part of that, that structure.

[51:13] Michael: Oh, I have this one journal. It's a. My brother gave me my first of this specific type of journal. And there's this one journal that I can just pick up and it's almost like it just emanates that time period, that time frame, and it's just, it's so crazy just to think about like, because it's like to anybody else it's. Oh, that's just a journal, you know, just pages. It is words. But when I pick it up, it's like I could maybe it still smells like smoke, I don't know. But the hours in Metro that I would spend journaling, you know, thinking through things, you know, struggling with things.

[51:56] Matt: Yeah.

[51:57] Michael: And I don't even have to, I don't have to read the words on the page. I just can pick it up and it's. All that stuff comes back to me,

[52:03] Matt: which is. I think maybe that's one of the reasons why the, the Lord of the Rings is such a powerful story. I mean, there are objects, there are sort of like totems in our life. You know, in the rings in. Or the one ring is one of those. Anyone who comes near it is influenced by it. You know, in your example of the journal is. It's that way. It can have that effect on you. And it wouldn't have that effect on me. But there are some things in our lives that have effect on a great many people. And you just need to be near it.

[52:38] Michael: Yeah.

[52:38] Matt: To be in its effect. Oh,

[52:39] Michael: that's fascinating. What kind of things would you say fit that category?

[52:47] Matt: That's a good question.

[52:48] Michael: I. I thought kind of a. A quick one, but yeah, like Medici. Like you say that and it means a lot. It means a lot of different things to different people. But

[52:58] Matt: yeah,

[52:59] Michael: there is a shared experience for a lot of people just through that brand. Or, you know, pick any brand. For example, I mean, you do have that same

[53:08] Matt: trigger. Does that mean anything to you? It's Willie Nelson's guitar.

[53:13] Michael: Oh, okay.

[53:13] Matt: You know what it is?

[53:14] Michael: Yeah. Well, I'm not as much music as you are.

[53:19] Matt: I think that's an object that once anyone realized they were around, it would have a great effect on them.

[53:25] Michael: Yeah.

[53:26] Matt: Or a lot of people, at least.

[53:28] Michael: I mean, grave sites, you know, you go to a grave, it's sort of like, well, the person's dead. But why is it so powerful? Like, you know, even when I go to a cemetery that I don't know any of the people in the ground, I have this sense of time in, you know, 1836. Wow.

[53:47] Matt: Yeah.

[53:48] Michael: They were here. Like, I'm here now. They were in this world

[53:51] Matt: and in some way they still are. They're. They're in the ground. Yeah, I had that experience. I'm not one to visit grave sites.

[54:06] Michael: I like cemeteries.

[54:07] Matt: You do like cemeteries? I'm just thinking, like, I. I think I only know three people that I would care to visit. And I actually did visit them. Gosh, going on five years ago now. And it was a little bit against my will. I had visited my hometown. This is in 2021. So my 20 year high school reunion was in 2020. But they didn't do it because 2020, you weren't allowed to do things in 2020 unless it was about racism, but in 2021. So I was. I was in a band with. I was. I was the only one who graduated 2000. The rest of my friends graduated 2001. Am I getting that right? Yes. But they were all. I'd known them all since I was very young, like 7. And so I went to their 20 year reunion for our high school in 2021. So I was in my hometown, we were all together and one of the band members passed away when we were 21 years old. Almost sort of random fluke thing, he just dropped dead, which is really unusual for a 21 year old healthy person. And he was buried in our hometown cemetery. My dad's father, my grandfather and his mother and my grandmother are also buried there. And my friends wanted to go and visit the grave site of our friend who we had buried many years before. And. Just trying to see if I got my math right. I think he was 21 or 22. So anyway, they wanted to go visit his grave site. So we went. And I was shocked how much of an effect it had on me. It was very powerful in a sense, very uncomfortable. But it really affected me to see and I went and saw my grandfather and grandmother.

[56:28] Michael: When you say it affected you, like, what does that mean? Like it affected you?

[56:34] Matt: Well, it's almost like it. In one way it reopened a wound. It sort of recast that light on the potential of our futures that got dashed when we lost our friend. It cast a light on the potential of his own future that got dashed when he died.

[56:57] Michael: Yeah.

[56:58] Matt: And so you had to kind of wrestle. It's like that the string got plucked and you had to wrestle with that music again. Like, who were we? Who have we become? Who was he? He's not have. He's no longer becoming. He is something else now. And have we. Have I done well with my years since I lost my friend? Have I done poorly? Surely I've done both. I hope I've done more good than ill.

[57:29] Michael: Yeah,

[57:30] Matt: I don't know, you know. And then I visited my grandfather's graveside and I thought about whether or not he would be pleased with who I've become and the way that I'm living my life and.

[57:43] Michael: God. So

[57:44] Matt: it's heavy.

[57:44] Michael: Yeah. Well, I love, I mean, it's like I. I love that idea is like there's a place. Something about. Even the symbolic aspect of that space, like draws up all of those like feelings and texture and.

[58:03] Matt: Yeah.

[58:04] Michael: And context. I mean, it does that. There's a lot of ways that that kind of does. I mean, there was this point in my life where I had gone crazy and. And then I was as a. Back in Amarillo and. And I just kind of had this weird feeling of like my friends from high school were treating me like the Michael that left in at 18 and I wasn't that guy. So I felt like they were interacting with somebody that was. That was not there. And. And that was kind of. It was just a really weird, weird feeling for me, like, to. To have people treating me like somebody that I. I'm no longer. And.

[58:44] Matt: Yeah.

[58:45] Michael: And then there's this. There's this part of, like, you know, we're also symbols in other people's lives too. Like, we represent certain things to people, and sometimes that symbol changes and you don't. You no longer are that anymore. And. But they. But then they treat you as if you are, you know, like, you know, if you're. If you're. It's like the classic friends. Whenever you get married and. And they think you're the single guy still, it's like, no, like, I'm married and I have kids. I have a different life now. It's like you're. You're trying to treat me like I'm the single Michael or something like that. You know, it's like I didn't really have that problem. That was just an example of my head. But just. It's just interesting like that. Like, sometimes people will treat you as a. As a symbol of something that you're actually not anymore.

[59:37] Matt: Yeah.

[59:38] Michael: And

[59:39] Matt: I wonder if that's why it's really important that people grow up and mature and enter something like a marriage. Because we are all constantly treating everyone else around us. To say it charitably, I think we are treating people around us according to the potential we see in them.

[60:12] Michael: Oh, I see.

[60:14] Matt: So you can see this with children. You don't treat a child as they. As they are. You treat them according to who they could become.

[60:24] Michael: Totally.

[60:25] Matt: And it's easy to see with a child because who they could become is everything.

[60:29] Michael: Yeah.

[60:29] Matt: You know, and the child throws a temper tantrum. You know, you. You hopefully don't treat it according to the temper tantrum, but according to, like. No, you need to actually learn how to use your fork and not just use your hands. A table or whatever, you know. But it's true in work contexts too. And it's true in friendships, and it's true in romantic relationships. But, you know, when you go home after many years and your friends treat you as who you were, but you didn't become who they thought you would become. I don't think that. It's not exactly that they're working with an outdated version of you. They're working with an outdated version of the potential of you. And that's why I think maybe it's important that we have very intimate relationships in our Life. Because the intimate relationships in our life can track how you are growing relative to the hope that is cast relative to the potential that is seen. It's important to have a stable parent for that reason so you can grow safely toward your own potential. Because your parent can track who you are and who you could be at the same time. If the parent isn't around much, they can't track either of those things. As you get older, entering into something like a marriage gives you a stable relationship in your life that can keep track of who you are and who you're becoming and who you could be and encourage you on that.

[62:05] Michael: Totally. Yeah. Because there's also reality checks of who you are right now. Because sometimes that's not pretty, you know, it's like, it's like, yes, you can become this really great person, but you know, right now you're being a

[62:20] Matt: reality check.

[62:21] Michael: Exactly. It's like you need that, you know.

[62:23] Matt: Yeah,

[62:25] Michael: but it's really fascinating too because I found, I think it was maybe my 20 year anniversary that I went to my high school, whatever it was, I found myself connecting with people that had also changed. And hey, because it's just the way that they look at you is like, hey, I don't know you now. I knew you then, but I don't know you now. It's like, it's a completely different approach. It's like when someone comes up to you and, and treats you like they like the person that you were five, 10, 20 years ago, you know, versus the person who's like, hey, you know, I liked you or you were a dickhead in high school, but I wanted, who are you now? You know, And I think that's something that, that really stands out as far as, you know, the whole. God, what we're talking about at the beginning, like just the idea of becoming. It's like everything is in this, in this, in this story of becoming. I was just even thinking like the like Frodo example too is like the ring started actually taking on different mean meanings too as it was moving through. But it still had a purpose. And you know, it's like whether Frodo was carrying it or Bilbo was carrying it or Golem was carrying, had different, a different personality to it and,

[63:48] Matt: or even Sam, he puts it on at one point

[63:51] Michael: and has

[63:51] Matt: a totally different experience. Yeah.

[63:54] Michael: So like there's this, there's, there's sometimes the same symbol can bring out different. Not results, but different outcomes or manifestations.

[64:05] Matt: I wouldn't say sometimes. I say always.

[64:06] Michael: Always. Yeah. You're right there, for sure.

[64:09] Matt: Which is why we need each other to have some kind of complete picture of what it is that's influencing us. And maybe what's so dangerous about the modern age is we don't have each other anymore. Our families, our businesses, our communities are split and can't communicate with one another over a disagreement of the symbol. When really what we need is each other's perspective to understand the symbol.

[64:39] Michael: Totally. To make it more round and more texture.

[64:44] Matt: Yeah. And to use your point to not demand that it be a solid object, but that it is something that is becoming, or at least that we are becoming relative to it.

[64:56] Michael: Totally. Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, I think you and I experienced that a lot. Just coming through the whole, like, Covid era is like. Like the object is defined. Do not question the object. We're like,

[65:10] Matt: that's the. That's the it in the wrinkle in time.

[65:14] Michael: Yeah. Don't question the object. It's like, well, okay, I'm gonna get probably 80% wrong. But the thing is, is like, it. I don't feel like it is what I. What we think it is. If it is that right now, it might not be that in two weeks from now or two months from now. And I think we experienced a lot of that. Like, we all thought something was a certain thing and then it wasn't. And I feel like some people were so. Became so rigid in what the thing was. Covid specifically, but also a lot of other areas that there. No. No one was willing to update their. Their files. Update their. Their understanding of. Of. Of. Okay, wait a minute. Maybe it's not what we thought it was.

[66:00] Matt: Yeah.

[66:01] Michael: And leaving that. Leaving that door open, that becoming part. Here's what we think it is right now. Okay, well, that's probably not what it's going to be in two weeks. Or

[66:12] Matt: like, even if you're right about what it is right now, it's not going to stay right.

[66:16] Michael: Yeah. Because it's like you're going to. Something's. It's going to grow in our understanding of what it is. So. God, there's so much in this area I'd love to explore more on.

[66:31] Matt: Well, I'm glad that both of us are feeling once more like we've got a couple big things left in us. And I'm looking forward to seeing how those things go. Acquiring some new battle wounds, some new scars, and keeping our conversation growing and alive for years to come.

[66:54] Michael: Oh, totally.

[66:55] Matt: And I. I look forward to what we'll be looking back on, you know, in five and 10 years. We're not done yet, baby.

[67:04] Michael: No. Well, I feel like that. I mean, I've really. I think that's why I've really enjoyed doing this with you. Is. Is that exploration into what is becoming and. And, you know, we have our blind spots, but at the same time, you know, I feel like that's something that. This podcast specifically for me, keeps me open to possibilities, and that's something that. I mean, just our. The name of the podcast is Shores of Ignorance. What am I missing?

[67:37] Matt: I have this line that's been in my head for a long time, and I think it's a part of a poem that I wrote, although I'm not sure. The line is, still and still becoming. I am still here, and yet I am still becoming. Still here sometimes means, holy shit, I'm still here. I haven't perished yet. I haven't brought about my own demise from my stupidity and foolishness. Sometimes it's still like I want things to remain exactly as they are because any change might be dangerous. And yet, regardless of how I feel about anything, I am still becoming. I can't stop it.

[68:31] Michael: Yeah,

[68:32] Matt: I could try, but I would just be becoming some other kind of thing.

[68:38] Michael: Yeah, I like that.

[68:45] Matt: Let's end it there.

[68:47] Michael: Cheers

[68:48] Matt: to you. To big things and to

[68:51] Michael: who knows what.

[68:51] Matt: Still becoming to

[68:52] Michael: be coming. Yeah,

[68:54] Matt: look all out there.

[68:56] Michael: Bye.