Correcting Toward Love

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust, like eye contact with strangers. I was talking to my mom on Easter Sunday, and she was reflecting on. She felt, how she felt like she had grown a lot since my dad died because of the necessity of basically leaning on Jesus, leaning on God, and told her I felt kind of the same way. The last several years of our lives, in my life have been pretty tumultuous. And I felt like. I feel like I have had to grow and lean on God in ways that. Hmm, maybe in ways that I didn't used to. But there's also some kind of a. Almost like a resentment in me about it because, like. But does it have to be so hard, you know, to be driven. To be driven to the cross? And I suppose maybe the answer is yes, it does, because I don't go there of my own volition, you know, my own free will. It's like I go there because I'm desperate.

[1:35] Michael: Yeah. It's such a. Such a weird thing because I always have the. We've had this conversation many times, but can I learn stuff without suffering? I really wish that was true, but it's just like. It's just not true. Matter. I think you can learn some things without suffering, but. Yeah, you just don't. It's not. It's just not. It's just not there. It's on the cards.

[2:02] Matt: It reminds me of my friend David's song. He has a. David Ramirez has a song called the Hard Way. He sort of reflects that he's always having to learn lessons the hard way. And there's some part of me, maybe some arrogant part of me that thinks that I'm better than that, you know, that I don't have to learn things the hard way because I pick them up, you know, I learned my lessons.

[2:25] Michael: Yeah.

[2:26] Matt: And, well, I'm. I'm becoming disabused of that idea.

[2:34] Michael: I wonder if there's like a falsity in it too, because, you know, like, oh, I just need to be more responsible. I need to be more accountable. I need to be more. And. And it's like, it's not that. That's not true, but at the same time, it's like you're kind of missing the point. It's not really about being more responsible or more accountable. Like, maybe those are. Those are like, byproducts, but it's something about embracing suffering that is actually really healthy and good, you know, not to go looking for it, but to embrace it because it's like it's it's there. You don't. You don't have to go very far.

[3:15] Matt: Right.

[3:16] Michael: You know, you can run from it, but even that's like you're just delaying it.

[3:21] Matt: Yeah. Why do you think it is that way? That. That is. It seems to me like that's kind of at the bottom of our human experience.

[3:33] Michael: Suffering.

[3:33] Matt: Yeah. It's kind of the bedrock

[3:38] Michael: when you think about all the things we do to alleviate suffering. You know, air conditioning.

[3:43] Matt: Yeah.

[3:45] Michael: You know, just almost all the. Everything that we have is to alleviate suffering. And we think that, you know, someone 100 years ago would look at what we have right now and be like, whoa, yeah, you guys have alleviated a lot of suffering. But if you ask somebody walking down the street, they're like, no, I. I suffer.

[4:03] Matt: Yeah.

[4:04] Michael: It's like rich or poor.

[4:05] Matt: Right.

[4:06] Michael: And it's sometimes easy to look at the rich and make. Oh, they don't suffer.

[4:08] Matt: It's like, you have no idea.

[4:11] Michael: You have no idea. Yeah.

[4:12] Matt: Well. Hey. Yeah.

[4:13] Michael: To the shores.

[4:14] Matt: To the shores. The tone's a little different tonight. I got a. A piece of bad news right before we started recording. So I'm in kind of a strange headspace.

[4:30] Michael: You're always strange in your headspace.

[4:32] Matt: Am I? Maybe I am. I'm a strange, strange man.

[4:41] Michael: Well, I think it's. It's really hard. I mean, like, does it mean to embrace suffering? Because I don't think I, I, I feel like I try. I try to alleviate. Alleviate suffering.

[5:00] Matt: Yeah.

[5:00] Michael: More than I. Than I embrace it.

[5:07] Matt: Well, on the one hand, it's kind of like, of course you do. No one likes to suffer, you know, but there is this sort of strange insistence, it seems to me, in, you know, the story of the New Testament, maybe especially, is that it's like we're compelled to pick up our cross and carry it. Yeah. You know, God says, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, but a burden nonetheless. It is. And we are called to suffer. I mean, is that true? Do, do you think that that's true?

[5:46] Michael: Well, I think if you're going to actually live life, then you have to embrace suffering. I mean, I think that's why a lot of people don't want to have kids, because there's a lot of suffering that comes with having kids. A lot of people don't want to get married because there's a lot of suffering that comes with getting married. It's like, we want. We want ways to get out of things. Like, oh, my partner. Partner of a year, two years. What do you. How long is this partnership going to last? You know, it's like where marriage is a different thing. It's like, no, this is like I'm committing to you and, you know, you know, I want to start a company and make. Make money or something like that. Well, there's a lot of suffering that comes if you want to do that.

[6:26] Matt: Right.

[6:26] Michael: But I want it to be easy. And it's like. It's like nothing in life that has of any value does not, and suffering does accompany it. And so I just don't see anything that. Because, again, it's like having kids. It's one of the hardest things you'll ever do, but it's also the most gratifying and rewarding things I think you'll do in your life. So. Yeah, because, I mean, if. If you're not doing those things, you're just. You're kind of just distracting yourself.

[6:58] Matt: Yeah.

[6:59] Michael: From life and from living well.

[7:03] Matt: It reminds me of that Carl Jung quote, that all neuroses are alternatives to legitimate suffering. It's like if you choose not to suffer, what. What you are called to suffer, you live in a pathological place that becomes. You become sick, because you have to invent some lie, basically some story about your life that doesn't include the suffering in order to stay away from it. I mean, there's something really truthful, I think, about suffering. It's like things are the way that they are. I'm gonna sit with that. No, you know, there's. You can suffer well and you can suffer poorly. I think

[7:50] Michael: what's interesting, because there's a. I don't know if I want to jump off the. This far ahead just yet, but because there is injustice, like, as far as suffering, you know that someone is imposing that on you in a very unjust way.

[8:07] Matt: Right.

[8:08] Michael: And then there's just living life. That suffering just is kind of part of the. The program.

[8:24] Matt: Yeah. There is such a thing as undue suffering, but there is no such thing as no suffering. Not in this world. What is it that we suffer over? We suffer over disappointments. We suffer over the fact that we can't control things, that things aren't the way that we want them to be. Whether that's in business or relationships or your house or, you know, the grass isn't growing in the front lawn like you want it to. And

[8:54] Michael: yeah, it's like you can kind of retreat, but the suffering just keeps kind of following you, you know, just even like, oh, I'm just going to retreat from the world. It's like, yeah, well, your yard is. You're suffering because your yard is not. You know, it's like something's always. Something's always there just biting at your heels. So I think that's the whole idea you brought this up, was like, take up your cross. It's something about, okay, no, suffering is a part of this world, so I need to take up my cross.

[9:21] Matt: I think, Especially when I was younger, I had this feeling like at some point I will arrive somewhere where things are going to be better, more secure, more predictable, more comfortable. You know, you think because you have this idea, it's like, you're gonna make it. Yeah, we've made it. You know, and, you know, maybe there have been sort of certain periods of time where I've felt some portion of that, but the older I get, the more I start thinking, no, I think it's that you're going to carry your cross until you die, until you're exhausted and you die. And your job is to do that until that day, whenever that may be. There is no. It's like there is no arrival this side of heaven. You keep trudging forward. You keep fidgeting with things and fixing what is broken and mending what you broke on accident or on purpose. You know, it's like you. It's like that Socrates quote we were talking about last week. It's like he's. He was wise because he knew he wasn't wise. It's like, you don't get to arrive at wisdom because the closer you get to it, the further you realize you are. So what is that? Seems like so many things are like that.

[10:50] Michael: God. There's this proverb that says, I'm going to butcher it, and I might miss a couple words, but it says, get knowledge, though it cost everything you have. Get wisdom. And there's this part that just like, it's. It's costly.

[11:05] Matt: Yeah.

[11:06] Michael: And you can't arrive at wisdom without paying the price. And I mean, I just, I experienced that with business. It's like right now I'm working on something that I kind of just blown away with because it's, it's. It's coming from all of the difficulties I've had over the 20 years of being in business and just pouring it out into this thing, and it just feels so good.

[11:35] Matt: And I spent 20 years learning the lessons. Yeah, totally.

[11:38] Michael: And it's. And it's like I've been here long enough to know that I'm not done, but it's like. But it just, It's Just felt so good to just pour all of those things into. It's like I'm kind of, like, seeing all the gems that I've collected along the way and. And, I don't know, it just makes it so much fun. And, you know, someone always asks you. Is like, if. If you could do something different, would you? And that's just. I never can answer that question because it's really. No, because I wouldn't have gotten where I am today without. I mean, did I make mistakes? Yeah, a lot of them.

[12:15] Matt: Well, and maybe I'm a little smarter than I was when I was in my 20s, but I'm not smart enough to know what change would have a meaningful difference if I had the opportunity to do it differently.

[12:24] Michael: Totally. Yeah. It's almost like, maybe even say, like, I would have taken on more things or. Yeah. Carried a heavier burden, you know, who

[12:38] Matt: was it that says, beware wisdom that is not earned?

[12:42] Michael: Okay, so that's a young. It's attributed to Jung, but it's not officially. It's kind of like he was writing a letter to a priest or something like that. And it's basically what he said, but be careful of the wisdom you did not earn.

[12:55] Matt: That's like a more concise version of

[12:57] Michael: what he said, of what he said. But I think it's. Whether you say it directly or indirectly, I think it's a really. And I think a lot of it has to do, like, psychedelics and stuff like that. It's just sort of like.

[13:11] Matt: Well, I mean, isn't that, like, really apropos of the world we're living in right now? Like, with AI and Twitter, social media? We think we know what's going on in the world. You know, we think we understand what's happening in the world. But there's a. There's sort of a. You see how much trouble that's causing people. You know, it's like the recent example of, you know, what was going on with ice in Minnesota. You know, you had kind of two main portions of the population who both were sure that they knew what was going on, but they were at odds with one another. And, you know, maybe we're not being wary of wisdom. We did not earn, you know, experience. We did not earn experience that we didn't experience. Yeah, we see things on video and we see. We think we see everything, and yet we're less informed, it seems to me, than. Than ever.

[14:16] Michael: Well, that is definitely a form of suffering is trying to tell a story that doesn't match up with reality. It's like the more you try to tell that story, the more friction is going to come from living and walking out that story.

[14:35] Matt: I feel like I shared this quote recently on the podcast, but it reminds me of something this music journalist said about Tom Petty. He said that he felt like pretty much everyone who is successful in the music industry, he feel the journalist felt like is desperately trying to say something to someone who's not listening. And he said in Tom Petty's case, it was his dad. But, yeah, that's. I can relate to that. You know, trying desperately to. To make. To clarify something to someone that you love or someone that you're disagreeing with and not being able to do it. And I'm.

[15:22] Michael: Well, because in that sense, it's like the, the question comes back at you is that, well, am I saying something that is true? And I think that's something that you have to grapple with. And I think that's, you know, I see this with entrepreneurs in general. And I was listening a couple of. I think Jack Dorsey was talking about his time with Square and Cash App. And like, he was, you know, he was basically telling his board, like, no, Cash App, this is a great idea. This is a great idea. And like over two or three years, they were just like he was losing credibility with his board because he kept dragging this Cash App thing out. And I think now it's like, don't coin. But it's like half of their revenue now or something like that. And it's like he saw something that nobody has saw, but he was willing to stay, stick with it and suffer through that, even reputationally. And I think that's just really hard because honestly, it's like it could have been just the other way too. Like, hey, no, that was a really bad idea. And you hurt Square or Block or whatever by trying to keep this idea alive.

[16:25] Matt: Right?

[16:26] Michael: You know, Sears and Roebuck, you know, like, no, we know what this. We know what the world is going to be like. Or Blockbuster, you know, you have all these counter examples of they're telling themselves a lie. Like, no, if you see where the wind is blowing, it's not in the way of movie stores and DVDs. And I think it's just hard. You just get stuck in these mindsets that you can't think differently. And, you know, you see this with victimization. It's like, I'm a victim of what? Of who? And you just put yourself in that place and you're telling yourself that story. It's like, it's like it's just a harmful. It's like undue suffering to paint yourself as the victim. You just suffer. You suffer from a ghost almost of your own making.

[17:20] Matt: I'm trying to think of another example, because that seems really true to me that it's very difficult to see something that someone else doesn't, because you kind of seem like the crazy person because you're. You know. I don't know what the right analogy is, but it's like, you know, I don't know where this comes from, but I heard it at some point, and it seemed. It always kind of fits, but that the Native Americans, when, you know, the Europeans came over in ships for the first time, that apparently some of the Native Americans, they, like, couldn't see the ships because they were so categorically outside of anything in their own experience. I've never seen anything like it.

[18:01] Michael: Yeah.

[18:02] Matt: That. You know, your brain is kind of a. Its main job is omission, is filtering things out.

[18:10] Michael: Yeah.

[18:11] Matt: And so sometimes when somebody sees something that you don't see, your explanation for that is, well, they must be hallucinating, you know,

[18:24] Michael: or even. It kind of goes into like, the old husband, wife thing where, well, they're wrong about 3,000 things, and so obviously they're wrong about this.

[18:34] Matt: Wait, wait, I don't understand. Well, the husband, wife thing.

[18:37] Michael: Well, like this. That kind of is like a cliche sort of, like, like, oh, you're always doing this. Oh, you're always doing that. And it's like, they're not always doing that. And. But you just paint them in this light that, oh, they're always not picking up their socks or something like that. It's like, well, that might be true, but that statement's actually bigger than just not picking up your socks because you're basically painting a story or telling a story about this person, that you're creating distance between you and the other person. And. And. But if you told a different story, that actually there's like a different outcome that comes. You know, it could be like, oh, you know, it's like, I don't mind if Allison leaves things on the. On the ground in the. In the bathroom, you know, and. And it's like, that's. That's just the way she is. That's how she does things. And it's a different. You just. Your orientation changes completely. And I see the same thing with suffering. It's like. It's like if your orientation from suffering is. Is reluctance, then it's like, it, like, hurts a lot. I see this with, like, Cold plunges. Like, whenever I'm like, I do my breathing and I accept, like, the cold, it's so much easier. But if I'm like frantic and I get in the water, I'm like, so much more. Like, it, like, elevates it or something like that.

[19:57] Matt: Right.

[19:58] Michael: So it's just like the way that you orient towards things, I think really impacts how you experience them too. And suffering, we're kind of taught to that suffering's not a good thing and to keep it away. Yeah.

[20:17] Matt: I feel like most of what we experience as pain is actually just fear. You can master fear and pain becomes a much different experience. Like fear of when is it going to stop, is it going to get worse, how much worse? But generally, once you've gone through something painful, it could be physically painful or even a heartache kind of painful. You sort of know the size of it and the shape of it, and you're less afraid. And so you don't experience as much of what we call pain.

[20:53] Michael: It's almost like our conversation about the Selden crisis kind of comes into this because there's been so many times specifically in business where there's a pain point coming and I'm trying to prevent it as much as possible, especially early on. This is before I really could manage the, like, the. The trials get harder and harder. But, like, I remember the first time I experienced this sort of like, I had like $5,000 in the bank and, like $15,000 coming out and bounced a whole shit ton of checks. But it was funny because, like, I was, like, so resistant. I was trying to figure out how to, like, for this not to happen.

[21:34] Matt: Right?

[21:35] Michael: And then once I, like, accepted and just like, okay, this is gonna happen. This is gonna happen. And I just gotta call everybody and say, hey, I'll get. I'm gonna get you another check for next week.

[21:44] Matt: And.

[21:45] Michael: And this and this. And then it's like my orientation just shifted and I was no longer, like, trying to, like, resist that this inevitable, inevitable thing, you know? But it is. It's like, I don't think it's like. It's not necessarily like, what I was doing up to that point was necessarily bad because there's also some creative ways that you're like, okay, hey, I see this coming. What are some ways that I can do to either alleviate some of it or to. To Emperor? It's like. It's like there's some strategy there, but at the same time, it's like whenever you. You release into it, it's like, okay, you Kind of accept it, and then you move or something like that. So, yeah, there's something. Definitely. And we've talked about this before, but Allison, just. With their having five kids and just seeing her just move through suffering in a way, and having a child that was just so beautiful, it wasn't like it didn't hurt. It wasn't like it was. It wasn't hard.

[22:50] Matt: Yeah.

[22:51] Michael: It was just that it was the way that she moved in suffering. And it's funny because it's always at the very beginning, you see her kind of resistant to that, and then as. As she gets further into it, you start to get. You see her more, like, moving into that, and it's like, it's really a beautiful thing, which makes sense. It's like even running. It's when you first start running, like, oh, God.

[23:12] Matt: Oh, yeah.

[23:13] Michael: But then you start kind of, like, moving a little bit, and even some of the aches and pains are kind of like, you know, actually feel good.

[23:24] Matt: Yeah. How much. How much do we miss out on? Because we avoid suffering? You know, we don't do things because we're worried about suffering them. And yet there is that. That really is a very true experience that it's like to be human is. Is to. It's like. It's to feel it all. It's to go on the jog and feel your aches and pains and then feel them transform and feel the pleasure scrape bit by. Oh, what's his name? Pete Holmes. He's talking about how your. Your brain has, like, all the drugs necessary to make you feel amazing all the time. Like, it has endorphins, it has dopamine, it has serotonin. He's like, your brain has a whole pharmacy up there. Your brain's just an asshole. Your brain's like, you want to feel good. You want to feel real good? Go for a jog.

[24:27] Michael: It's like, get uncomfortable. I'll bring some stuff to you. Yeah. Yeah.

[24:33] Matt: But isn't that just the way life is? Because what is good to be had takes effort and energy to gain. And if it didn't, well, would it be good to have. There's sort of a paradox in that. Yeah.

[24:53] Michael: Oh, it's like. I mean, you even see that. And was it 1984? Was soma. It's like taking a drug to sort of, like, even you out so you don't experience any highs or any lows.

[25:03] Matt: Is that in 1984?

[25:04] Michael: I don't know. I've seen.

[25:05] Matt: Or is that Elder world?

[25:08] Michael: Yeah. Sometimes I like, Fahrenheit 451 and Brave

[25:13] Matt: New World and yeah, kind of blurred

[25:15] Michael: together a little bit.

[25:18] Matt: Gosh, it's been like eight years ago now, but my mom and dad and brother and I with some friends, did a several day hike through Yosemite, climbed Half Dome and camped. And the last day, I don't know if this is right or not, but I think we had the way we had planned it out. We ended up having to hike something like 30 miles the last day. And it was brutal and yet, you know, my, my knees were killing me, my back was killing me, you know, blisters everywhere. You're just like, when is this suffering going to end? But at the same time you stop because you're hurting and you look around and all of a sudden it's just the magnificent beauty of where you are. You see it in a way that's unique. It's like I saw the world differently on the third or fourth day than I did on the first day because my body had been affected by it. And it revealed something to me about it that you don't see with, you know, sort of the, the fresh eyes

[26:29] Michael: or even just the idea that, you know, you go up to the dome and it's a different experience if you walk up there or if you took a helicopter.

[26:39] Matt: Oh, yeah.

[26:40] Michael: You know, and it's just.

[26:41] Matt: Oh my gosh, the absolute elation when we got to the top was amazing.

[26:48] Michael: Yeah. Dude, that's, that's insane.

[26:53] Matt: Yeah.

[26:56] Michael: Well, it starts to make like, what am I keeping myself from suffering?

[27:00] Matt: That's what I was wondering.

[27:02] Michael: But I do, I totally understand why it's like, it's not pleasant, you know?

[27:07] Matt: Yeah. You know, it's not.

[27:08] Michael: Discipline is not pleasant at time, but painful, but however it produces. A harvest of righteousness, peace for those who've been trained by it.

[27:15] Matt: Nice.

[27:17] Michael: That's bio versa.

[27:19] Matt: A harvest of righteousness and peace.

[27:22] Michael: Yeah. It's like, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful, however. Oh, shoot. However, not discipline, pleasant time but. But painful, however. Oh, shoot. No, I just lost it. I was all joking about it and said it. I can't remember.

[27:40] Matt: You can look it up.

[27:41] Michael: Yeah.

[27:42] Matt: Do you know what verse it is?

[27:43] Michael: I don't remember.

[27:44] Matt: Okay, then we can't look it up.

[27:47] Michael: That's what AI is for.

[27:49] Matt: I mean, I can certainly think of some things in my life that I'm avoiding suffering.

[27:55] Michael: Oh, totally. I mean, I don't know that I

[27:57] Matt: want to share them. I'm not going to.

[27:59] Michael: Yeah, well, I mean, there's so many Things that. It's like, I don't want to bring it into the light because it's. That's painful.

[28:10] Matt: Yeah.

[28:11] Michael: And. And I don't want to look at it.

[28:15] Matt: And once you bring it into the light, it might be a lot worse than you thought that it was. Although I would say, generally, that's the opposite. Generally, once you bring it to the light, it. It reveals itself to be this, you know, tiny little, like, oh, it's not a monster. It's. Yeah.

[28:31] Michael: Well, even, like, there's a. There's a. It's like you realize you've been telling yourself an un. True story, like, when you bring things into the light. And I think that's. You know, I've seen this. I keep bringing up business, but I feel like I am such an optimist. And then there's these times where I have to be kind of brought down into the gross reality of the situation.

[28:55] Matt: Yeah.

[28:56] Michael: Like, I remember with COVID that was one that was really hard. It's like we had to, like, let go a whole bunch of people because we were closing stores and stuff, and. And this was before PPP and all that kind of stuff. It's just sort of like. Like, we're closed.

[29:11] Matt: Yeah.

[29:13] Michael: And it was just like, as. It was so, like, I was trying to figure out all the different ways that we didn't have to do that and just beat myself up. But then I was like. But then I. When I saw it, I was like, there's. I don't have another option.

[29:28] Matt: Right.

[29:29] Michael: And. And then it was like, okay, let's do it. And it was really hard. But it was like. But I was. I was. But that's the part is like, I was facing reality. Like, there was. It was just impossible to do that.

[29:46] Matt: Facing reality is always better, no matter how dark the reality may be. I think. I mean, it seems that way to me. And going back to our conversation last week, it's like the alternatives are, you know, some kind of nihilism and suicide, you know, or naively thinking you could return to the Shire, to some place that, you know, isn't. Gonna. Isn't gonna last. If you don't face the reality, there's not gonna be any more Shire left.

[30:19] Michael: And that's so funny. Like, there's. There's just even that, you know, wanting to go back to the Shire, and it's like, well, no, the Shire's not the same as it was before, and so there's that reality. But then also, when you're pushing forward to a new Reality. So we're going to take this ring and throw it into Mordor and it's going to create this whole new world. It's like, you don't know that. What are you stupid? Like that sounds dumb. Don't do that. You're going to do all this pain and suffering for maybe a better world.

[30:55] Matt: Maybe. No guarantees.

[30:56] Michael: No guarantees. And then everyone has a different idea on what. How that new world should be.

[31:02] Matt: Yeah.

[31:02] Michael: And what it. What's. How to move towards it.

[31:06] Matt: We're just a Lord of the Rings podcast now.

[31:08] Michael: Totally.

[31:10] Matt: It's just so rich in analogy.

[31:12] Michael: It really is. It's got layers upon layers upon layers. But it is like, I mean, even we're talking about, like, business leaders and Jack Dorsey with Cash App. It's like, you know, you're casting a vision. And that's the question is like, is it possible? Is it true?

[31:32] Matt: Yeah.

[31:32] Michael: Will it deliver? And. And that's. That's. That's a really difficult thing to. To walk in that direction. You know, I've had tons of ideas.

[31:43] Matt: Right.

[31:45] Michael: And most of them are not good ideas. And maybe some of them were just

[31:50] Matt: when the right time.

[31:51] Michael: When the right time. Or maybe I just didn't pursue them in the manner I should have.

[31:54] Matt: Right.

[31:55] Michael: So so many variables. It's like the. The fool and the wise man. It's like there's a very fine line between the two. The fool thinks they're wise and the wise think they're fools or something. I don't know.

[32:17] Matt: Yeah, we just don't see clearly, do we? And yet we see enough to do all kinds of incredible things.

[32:31] Michael: Well, I think that's the. There's a beautiful thing that I think has been kind of like. You had brought this up at the beginning of the podcast. I think that has been sort of hidden from us. Like, we. We've. We're presented with a world that we think we know everything. We know what is right, what is good. We know that, you know, this person's racist or this person's, you know, everyone's in these categories and we just know everything. If you're a Republican, you're this. If you're a Democrat, you're this. Or we're trying to put all these things in these little, tiny boxes, and it. It results in a very, like, neat world, you know, tidy world, but it's also a very painful world because nobody fits in those tiny, tidy boxes, you know, not truly.

[33:20] Matt: Yeah, Yeah.

[33:21] Michael: I mean, boxes are helpful and useful, but generalizations, but so much more complex than that. I Think that's part where, you know, my son and I were talking about this and. And, you know, just different types of people and, you know, whether it be Donald Trump or Joe Biden and, And. Or even, like, you know, your famous the Hill. The Hitler example is always the. The greatest example, you know, And I told him. I was like. I was like, I think you always have to leave the door open of the possibility of, like, redemption, whether it's Hitler or whether it's Mother Teresa. It's like, if you don't leave that door open, I think the world becomes a really nasty place. So I think, you know, even within the US justice system, it's like, we always leave the door open, right? There's very extreme circumstances where we close the door.

[34:23] Matt: Right. And we seem to. I think we live in a world in which morality is obvious. Even like the sort of baby Hitler concept that flies around about, if you have the opportunity to go back in time and kill baby Hitler, would you do it? I saw this funny Instagram post where a guy's applying for a job, and he had previously gone back in time and killed baby Hitler. And he applied, put it on his resume for how much good he did for the world. But since he killed Hitler, no one knew who Hitler was. And so the people. The person was like, you killed a baby.

[35:09] Michael: Oh, that's true.

[35:10] Matt: He's like, oh, no. Which I think kind of reveals the problem with that thought experiment, because if you were to go back in time and kill baby Hitler, you don't. You don't get to know from that vantage point in time who Hitler would or would not turn out to be. And so you're extinguishing potential. I mean, potential for evil, surely. But what is that other Lord of the Rings quote? Not all men deserve death. Who die deserve death. Some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? So he's talking about Smeagol. Gollum.

[35:55] Michael: Smeagol.

[35:56] Matt: Yeah. S. Frodo is just sort of like, well, we should have just killed him. And the wisdom of Gandalf is, if you can't give life, then you should be very slow to take. Take it. And, you know, I think we all need to learn from that.

[36:12] Michael: That's the truth. I mean, just. Even just when we, you know, we all do it. So it's like, you know, you pick the person that you want to, like, say is evil or, you know.

[36:23] Matt: Yeah.

[36:24] Michael: It's like, well, are they, though, like. Or that just kind of like you're. You're. You're putting that on them. And they're kind of like they're sort of that scapegoat, you know, that. That carries all that, all your anger and frustration. You're just focusing it on that person.

[36:42] Matt: Right.

[36:43] Michael: You know, no matter whether you're from the left or from the right or whatever, I think it's difficult to see the complexities of, of people or even somebody who has been like, horrible person. It's like, can they, can they be redeemed? And can you accept that, that they can be redeemed? I think some people are. May I probably put myself in the same category? It's like, no, they're irredeemable. Like it's done. I don't feel like I would say that, but I probably act that way in some regards. It's like, Like it doesn't matter what this person does from here on out. I'll always see them in the light of their irid. Irredimal. Dibbility. Irredimalness.

[37:32] Matt: Like there's some extra syllables.

[37:33] Michael: I do. They found a few words this week that I was like, I cannot say that word.

[37:43] Matt: Well, I feel like I've been saying this a lot lately, but I think that we have forgotten the lesson of Solzhenitsyn that where is the evil? It's in my own heart. It's GK Chesterton responding to a prompt to write an essay about what's wrong with the world. And he just replies, dear sirs, I am God.

[38:07] Michael: So good.

[38:08] Matt: We. It's in, you know, so I think it's. His last name is Taylor, who wrote that book the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. He talks about an idea called the social imaginary. And it's a little bit nuanced, but I think it's a really functional term because it means the way we tend to think things are in society and we don't really know why we came to think that they are that way. We tend to think or say that they're self evident or obvious, but that's really almost never the case. But in our social imaginary in these days that we're living through, I think we do really generally imagine that evil is a thing that's over there. Evil is in, you know, it's either in Donald Trump or the Deep State or evil is in Israel, evil is in Iran. And almost never do we say, dear sirs, I'm what's wrong with the world? It's me. I mean, I'm the problem. It's me. Taylor Swift. Got it. I guess so maybe that's changing.

[39:25] Michael: How'd she get it?

[39:26] Matt: Oh, she wrote that song. I'm the problem. It's me.

[39:29] Michael: Oh, okay. I'm not as big of a swifty as you are. Well, it's. It's fascinating too, because, I mean, that's kind of like the whole confession of Christ. It's like, what's the problem? It's me. And that's. That's basically what you're confessing.

[39:46] Matt: And it's, it's. It's. It's a solution for the socks on the floor problem. It's like you can say, you always do this. Whereas you could say, well, no, the problem is me. I'm overly frustrated about something I could just simply bend over and pick up and put away. It's my own lack of patience, my own lack of compassion, my own lack of love that's causing this problem for me. It isn't you.

[40:25] Michael: That's fascinating.

[40:28] Matt: That's really hard to do, though, or even like.

[40:31] Michael: Like, this is an opportunity for me to serve this person.

[40:34] Matt: Yeah.

[40:34] Michael: Like, it's an opportunity, not a problem.

[40:38] Matt: Right. That's a good reframe. Yeah. Anytime there's a problem, there's also an opportunity.

[40:44] Michael: Yeah. Oh, totally.

[40:48] Matt: And I think me personally, I. You know, it's kind of akin to my. My feeling or desire to, like, have arrived at point somewhere. Rather than say, my life is rich in opportunity. Because it's so full of problems. It's so full of trouble.

[41:11] Michael: Yeah. When you said that earlier, Ecclesiastes did come to my mind. It's like, there's a time for everything. And I think there are times where it is sort of like, oh, wow, I've arrived. And. And I don't think that's. That's a bad thing, but it's. That's. It's not a steady state. No, it's like, it is. There's a time for everything. And you have to be willing to make that. Those adjustments to what is. What is the time right now?

[41:35] Matt: Yeah,

[41:38] Michael: but we're very unwilling. I mean, for me, I've always saw this. It takes me two to three months to. To shift gears. So like. Like a business cycle. I'll be in a building cycle where, like, opening up a store or something like that and just be like six months, you know, just rocking it, and the store's open, and I'm like, okay, all right, now where. Okay, where. What do I do now? Yeah, and it takes me a couple months that just kind of start shifting my gears into another sort of like, okay, this Is my role now. I was in Michael Open store role. Now I need to move into. We need. We need to work on our cogs or whatever it is. And so I think it is difficult for us, once we get into a season of something, to then transition into a different season.

[42:23] Matt: I've definitely made the mistake of not transitioning.

[42:29] Michael: So what do you mean? Don't you love how it just laughed at you? What do you mean?

[42:43] Matt: Well, you know, not moving out of building mode and into like, marketing mode or into sales mode or into these other modes that I just don't particularly like very much. And so I just have this, like, very stupid, naive idea that, like, oh, if I just keep building. If you build it, they will come, you know, Field of dreams that lie. I mean, there is something true enough to it, but it's. It's not true enough. It's like. I like to reference this music streaming platform called Ardeo.

[43:21] Michael: Oh, I remember. It's a long time ago.

[43:23] Matt: I almost. No one remembers. Yeah, it was before Spotify was legal in the United States and it was before Apple Music got into streaming. It was back when your itunes library was still like a library of actual music files that you ripped CDs to get them there or you bought them from the itunes store, which sounds so silly now, but RDO was a streaming platform and it was beautiful. And almost everyone that I know who's kind of in the tech or design space, we all loved it. It was a wonderful user experience. It was beautiful. And as far as we could tell, everyone used it. They had a big user base. Right. It turns out that wasn't true. It was just those of us who were already really focused on that kind of thing, on user experience and on design and technology that used it. And I read that the company went out of business. I think Apple ended up buying the ip. And I read this postmortem article about RDO that basically said that the company was full of people like me. They were obsessed with the user experience, they were obsessed with design, and no one at any point thought to hire marketing people or salespeople. And so in music streaming especially, margins are super, super small and they just couldn't survive, you know, so build it. And some people might come, but also you might go out of business.

[44:55] Michael: Yeah, that's that. You definitely hit home on that one.

[44:57] Matt: I love building.

[44:58] Michael: Just. I could just. Even the project I'm on right now, like, I don't even have to ship anything. I just want to. I just want to build and play and I've had to, like.

[45:10] Matt: It's so masturbatory, though, you know?

[45:13] Michael: Yeah.

[45:13] Matt: It's like, yeah, building and playing is fun, but it's also for something.

[45:18] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[45:19] Matt: You know, it's like your sexual pleasure is for something as well. And in case you're not sure about what that is, it's called procreation. And the more you use it for something that it's not meant for, the more it poisons you. I think that's fairly obvious from the state of our society right now, like, post the 60s and, like, you know, free love and hedonism becoming mainstream. You know, you look at almost any metric of health and no one's doing better. No, everyone's doing worse. Population is collapsing. Fertility rates are plummeting.

[46:01] Michael: Yeah. And then also people getting into their older ages, like, oh, I want to have kids, and then finding out they can't.

[46:05] Matt: Right.

[46:06] Michael: Or it's like a lot of work or. Costs a lot of money to do that.

[46:09] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God for Christ. Thank God for God. I don't know. It's just like, we're screwed. There's no way out of this problem. There's only one way out of the problem, actually. And we just celebrated it on Sunday.

[46:31] Michael: Yeah.

[46:31] Matt: It was the resurrection. Without that, we were.

[46:40] Michael: It's so crazy. Like, I. Sometimes it's hard for me to imagine anybody believing that. And it's also hard for me to believe. For me not to believe that it's

[46:53] Matt: hard to imagine people believing in the

[46:55] Michael: resurrection or just Jesus in general and. And everything that he stands for.

[47:00] Matt: Well, it isn't. It is kind of unbelievable.

[47:03] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[47:04] Matt: You know, but how many really good things do you already use that word for? He's like, unbelievable.

[47:09] Michael: Yeah, Well, I mean, that's. That's the problem with Christ I always have is like, I just can't get around it. It's like. It's actually effective. Like, when you do those things, like when you confess and, you know, when you say, like, you are the Christ, it's like there is. It's actually something different and. And that's hard to. It's hard to put into words and. But it's like something I can never. I can't get away from. It's sort of like I want all the benefits without all the belief.

[47:51] Matt: It's almost like I'd like to not suffer.

[47:55] Michael: But Jesus, I mean, that's the thing. He's like, no, suffering is part of this.

[47:59] Matt: Yeah.

[48:00] Michael: And I've come to walk you through this. And also for you. To do it with your eyes open and not blindly.

[48:07] Matt: So that's interesting. Jesus suffered.

[48:10] Michael: Mm.

[48:14] Matt: I saw that differently recently when I was reading through the Gospels after watching this show, the Chosen.

[48:20] Michael: Oh, I gotta do that. Yeah, it's a.

[48:22] Matt: It's a. I would really recommend watching it to anyone out there. I think it's a really. It's. It's very moving. And, you know, whether you are a Christian or not or a believe in God or not, I would recommend watching it because there's something. There's. There's power in it, you know, in the same way that there's power in the Lord of the Rings, you know, or any. Any good story. And I would say that the story of Jesus really is. It's. It's sort of the template for a good story. But it struck me that recently when I was reading through the Gospels, that Jesus seemed sort of lonely and kind of frustrated a lot. Oh. Because he was constantly trying to tell people, especially his own disciples, who were his family close to him. Right. He's trying to tell them something, and they just don't get it. They do not understand. And he's saying it over and over again. And there's these stories lots of different ways, lots of different ways. And there's these stories like that are astounding. Like the Last Supper, Jesus says, one of you is going to betray me. And the disciples are like, who. Who would do that? And Jesus goes, the person I hand this piece of bread to is the one who's going to betray me. And then he hands the bread to Judas. And the disciples are still like, I don't get it. Who's going to betray him? It's like, you know, we were talking earlier about trying to communicate something to somebody who's just not getting it. And. And that is kind of suffering. And Jesus, I think, suffered that way, you know, or like the story when. Who is it? John and Peter. He takes them out to pray and they fall asleep, and he's like, you can't even just sit and pray for a couple of hours, like. And then it's so astounding to me that when he resurrects, there's a couple of different stories where he goes to the disciples and they don't recognize him. And they talk to him. Like, there's. I can't remember who it is. It says they're walking back to the road to Aramaic or something, and Jesus comes and walks with them and they talk for, like, an extended period of time, and they don't know who he is, you know, so it's like Jesus is the only innocent man who ever lived, and yet he suffered the fullness of what it is to be human and to suffer, being human, to suffer. I feel this way all my life, all the time. I'm like, I'm doing all of these things, and nobody's recognizing it, nobody's acknowledging. Might be something like the socks analogy. And it's like, I know that that annoys you, and so I pick. I have now never left socks on the floor for two months, and you had nothing but things to say about them when they were on the floor. But you have nothing to say to me about the fact that I've changed that for you. You know, and you suffer that you suffer being alone. I mean, even in your deepest relationships, there is a part. There is a space of loneliness there because we don't know each other fully. And I mean, gosh, I don't even know myself fully. How could you know me fully? And so there's something I have to carry alone. And I would say that some of those things are a much deeper form of suffering than what you might imagine when you hear the word suffer. I kind of think that the social imaginary version of what we think suffering is is like William Wallace being disemboweled by his enemies. That's suffering. You know, you might say that Jesus on the cross, that's suffering. But there is a way in which that sort of physical suffering can't even really hold a candle to the way that you. You kind of suffer yourself and you suffer who it is that you want to be and you aren't, who it is that you are, and no one notices. And then the loneliness of not being fully known by anybody. Yeah. And I think Jesus, the only innocent man, experienced all of that. And on top of it, experienced. Arguably, I'm not. I say arguably, I'm not sure there's a case. There is a legitimate case against this. But I think he suffered probably the most physical pain, physically painful experience that humanity has ever devised. I mean, his death was sort of the archetypal, quintessential tragedy, both in terms of physical pain. And I read over Easter weekend, on Good Friday, I read the story of Jesus's arrest and conviction and crucifixion. And it's short, you know, but it's full of the worst. The worst. It's like not only he. Was he wrongfully convicted. Everyone knew he was wrongfully convicted. And after they convict him, not not only did they just give him unjust Punishment. They mocked him while he. They did it. And then when they stripped him of his clothes, the soldiers cast lots for who would take his clothes. It's like, how much lower can you get? You're so worthless. This man who was just beaten and bloodied, we're going to argue over who gets his clothes, you know, I mean, just made me weep. And then he has to hang there in front of his mother and his friends, who, by the way, just denied him, you know, in the case of Peter.

[54:30] Michael: Yeah.

[54:32] Matt: So it's like, man, you start to get a picture of, well, that's hell, and that's a hell I don't want anything to do with. And yet God himself. Incarnated into my world, into my experience, and went and did that knowingly and suffered all of that. And the claim is that because he did that, I don't have to do it anymore. The wages of sin is death. That's what I deserve. And yet he rose. And it's such a powerful. I was talking to my. My daughters. We went out to brunch, my three daughters and my youngest daughter's mom. And I was. I was kind of commenting. I was asking them what they, you know, what do you think about Easter? What do you think it. It means? And I commented that it's interesting to me that it seems like one of the less potent kind of holidays, you know, like Jesus's birth. We tend to. In the west, we culturally celebrate Christmas for like a month. You know, Thanksgiving, we generally do that for like a week. Halloween, there's people in my neighborhood who still have Halloween decorations up. And it drives me crazy. So I'm like, I would just do away with Halloween if I could, but Easter is this. It's this strange one. It just sort of comes and goes. And some of us, it's like you.

[56:27] Michael: You have Lent that starts. True that Tuesday is like 40 days that lead up to Easter. And the. I guess it's just depending on what culture you're a part of, like, as far as, like, like Easter, sort of the culmination of that 40 days of, you know. And then also Jewish Passover is like a. It's like a week long. You could call it a celebration, but it's really more of, like. It's a little more somber.

[56:56] Matt: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, maybe it's just in the social imaginary of the sort of kind of secular culture in which I grew up. Not Jewish.

[57:10] Michael: Yeah. Not Catholic or.

[57:11] Matt: Yeah. But I was thinking about that and why that might be, because even Sort of the imagery of, like the Easter bunny. And we do Easter egg hunts and we eat chocolate. And it's like, what is all this about? Because it's interesting to me because if. If what happened, happened, it's probably the most important thing that has ever happened. And I think there's a part of us that shies away. Like, it's so deeply profound that we shy away from it because it's so powerful. Yeah, I mean, I wrote this little essay about it a couple of years ago in which I was talking about Cain and Abel. You know, Cain and Abel is the story of the first two true human beings in that they were born. Adam and Eve were the first human beings. Cain and Abel were the first born human beings. So in a weird kind of way, it's like we are more like Cain and Abel than we are like Adam and Eve. The interesting thing about that story is that Cain is jealous of his brother and so he kills him, but really who he's angry at is God, and he kills Abel because of his anger at God for not being who he wanted him to be. And the story of Christ and the story of Cross, of the cross is that anger. It's Cain's anger for revenge against God himself taken to its fullness. You know, if the idea of the cross is that my sin, if the wages of sin is death and my sin condemns me to death. And there's this question of how. How deep does that coverage go? Because I tend to, as most people do, think of myself as a fairly good person, right. And the entire story of Jesus is. Is coming and saying, well, I gave you the law to disabuse you of that idea. It's like no one can live up. Live up to it.

[59:34] Michael: Yeah.

[59:35] Matt: And if you think that you've lived up to it because you haven't murdered. Well, I tell you that if you have looked at your brother with hatred in your heart, then you already have. You think you're a good person because you haven't committed adultery. Well, I tell you, if you've looked at a woman with lust, you've already done it. And it's like, shit, okay, I'm guilty of all that shit. But then the real thing that I'm guilty of that I think is the revelation of the resurrection, is God says, no, my forgiveness covers even your worst possible inclinations. And your worst possible inclinations, well, they played out when you murdered God. Because, you know, Dostoevsky struggles with this, with the. Or grapples with it in the Grand Inquisitor. Sort of essay in Brothers Karamazov. The idea is that. That Christ comes back and the religious leaders of the. Of the current time, when the book is set, you know, basically do the same thing. He just says, yeah, if Christ came back, we'd kill him again. Like, we don't want to grapple with, I think, with how sinful we are and admit that, yeah, that's the way the human heart is. That's the way things go. But because Christ said, even when you kill me, I triumph over your sin. And if that's true, everything is different. But I guess I'm trying to make the case that it's so profoundly true that we tend to kind of shy away from it.

[61:22] Michael: Well, it's kind of. To your earlier point about Scholzenits and the good line between good and evil runs through every heart. And I think that's a hard thing for us to accept. We want to think we're good people.

[61:36] Matt: Yeah. Or like, okay, maybe I accept that the line between good and evil is drawn down my own heart, but I want to believe that I'm edging it out. It's like I'm pushing the line over. I'm becoming a good person.

[61:47] Michael: Yeah.

[61:48] Matt: And, you know, sort of the Socratic idea, you know, Mother Teresa had this quote where she said, I don't love God. I don't even want to love God, but I want to want to love God.

[62:00] Michael: Yeah.

[62:01] Matt: You know, it's like even. It's like, find me the person who's arguably, you know, you could make the best case for them being a good person. Well, Mother Teresa would probably fit. And she's self admitting that she has no. It's like her heart betrays her all the time. She's like, I can't even say I want to love God. All I can say is that I want to want. And that sort of humility is what makes a person a good person. The only good people are the ones who know that they're not good people. How did C.S. lewis say it? He said, people who've never tried very hard to be good know very little about badness, about what it is to be bad. You know, people don't walk. I mean, this is what we're talking about is like, people don't walk around with any sort of, like, mature definition of what evil is. For the most part, we want to say that it doesn't exist or it exists over there or whatever. And that's because most of us don't try very hard to be good. And so we don't really know much about evil.

[63:05] Michael: And I think.

[63:05] Matt: I think the thing is, is that once you try to be good, you realize how bad at it you are, and you realize that the. The badness is everywhere in you, or it's.

[63:14] Michael: It's even easier to point out how other people are worse than you. And I think that's. I mean, I do the same thing, so it's like, it's not. This is not a.

[63:26] Matt: No, we all do it.

[63:28] Michael: Yeah.

[63:28] Matt: I mean, Paul even wrestled with this, Right. He says, I'm the chief sinner.

[63:32] Michael: Mm.

[63:34] Matt: I mean, again, the short list of people who you could make an argument as being good people. You know, Mother Teresa's on the list, Paul's on the list. Maybe Gandhi. I don't know.

[63:48] Michael: Have you ever gone down this road? Like, I. I've gone. I've. I've had these moments of going down this exercise of like, okay, what does it mean to be healthy? Okay, so I'm going to go all the way. That is hard to be healthy. It's like.

[64:05] Matt: But how healthy? Yeah, how healthy? And what does that mean?

[64:08] Michael: It's like, is that. Is that a workout program? The diet? Is it the sleep? Is it the. Okay, well, if I'm really serious about it, I'm going to take some vitamins and I'm going to do. It's like there's this whole regiment. It's like, then you. So what you're seeing now is like, oh, that's the Pharisees. You know, it's like, if I follow all these rules, I will be healthy.

[64:30] Matt: Right.

[64:32] Michael: And it's. It. It's so difficult to think about, like, what does it even mean to be good? Can you be good?

[64:38] Matt: Yeah.

[64:39] Michael: Can you do. Do you even have the capacity to devote the time to being good? And it's like, by. By what definition are you like. Yeah, good to the environment. Environment. Good to your relationships? Which relationships? Oh, just my family. Okay. You know, it's like, you start having to make all these even just idea of like, to be good or to be like a good recycler or whatever it might be. It's like. It's like you. If you keep it pretty narrow, it's like, okay, yeah, I do the things. I do the things. I put the cardboard in the thing, you know, it's like. It's like that's a very narrow view of what that means to recycle, you know?

[65:21] Matt: Yeah.

[65:21] Michael: Anyways, that's a kind of a dumb one. But just anytime you put any energy into being good at something. You're quickly. Like, you have, like. I think you have that sort of, like, first, like, you know, 80, 20 of the first 80%. It's like, you're like, oh, man, look how good I am. And then you just fall short, that last 20%.

[65:41] Matt: Yeah.

[65:41] Michael: And it's like. And then you start to realize, like, oh, I can't. I can't actually be good. I think that's probably what we call good, is sort of like, well, you know, I'm 80% good. It's like, well, it's probably a wrong assessment in general, but. But it feels that way, you know?

[65:58] Matt: Well, it's. I mean, it's very. Pharisaical. Is that a word? It's like, I'm good based upon these measurements.

[66:06] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[66:07] Matt: And it's like, yeah, but you're not even consistent about those. And even if you were, you're missing a bunch of measurements.

[66:22] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's 1.100,000th of the measurements that means good. But I think it's why it's easier to. Then to point out other people and how. How short they fall. You know, it's like. It's like when you compare yourself by the things that you value, it's easy. It's. I think it's easier to feel good about yourself that he.

[66:50] Matt: Without sin. Throw the first.

[66:51] Michael: Yeah.

[66:51] Matt: I mean, even the Pharisees, they were like, yeah, I can't say I'm without sin.

[66:57] Michael: Well, it's like, you know, just take, like, marriage, for example. Like, I can be like, man, Allison, like, throws her stuff all over the bathroom. It's like, I'm so much better because I don't do that. But then it's like, if I take another metric, which is like, her emotional availability to our kids is phenomenal. It's like, oh, wow, I fall way short on that scale.

[67:20] Matt: I don't know where exactly this fits, but it's kind of like, you know, you're at the public pool in the. The teenage lifeguard comes to take a chlorine sample, and you're like, chlorine's good. Yeah, chlorine's in a good spot, right? It's like, yeah, but there's still pee in the pool. So, like, you measured that one thing, and we're all comfortable enough with that, that we're still going to go swimming, but, you know, there's still pee in the pool. We just don't want to. We'd rather not look at that. If we had a way to measure how much Pee was in a public pool, we'd probably just, like, abolish that mechanism because no one would ever want to swim again.

[68:02] Michael: Oh, that is. Actually, you bring a really interesting point. Like, the things that we invent to cover up the truth because it makes us feel better about it, you know?

[68:13] Matt: Right.

[68:13] Michael: Like, even, like, we saw this through Covid is like, oh, wear a mask and you'll be fine. Everyone's gonna be fine. Or do the job, and it's everything. You're fine. It's like, we just believe it just because, like, you know. You know, I'm. I'm talking about beyond the. Just the first. When it first came out, is this sort of like. Because it's so much easier to, like, oh, okay, it's solved. It's good. I don't have to consider that.

[68:36] Matt: Right.

[68:38] Michael: But there's also something. I mean, there. I think there's something wrapped up in that. That's actually helpful, too, is, you know, to be able to trust somebody. You know, it's like. Like, Matt, you're not perfect, but I trust you. And it's like. But I'm not trusting you because you're perfect. I'm trusting you because you have. You've demonstrated that over time. And not that you will ever. Not that you won't disappoint me, but it's like, you're still trustworthy. It's funny because it's like, it leaves room for that space. So it's like, matt's not perfect, but he's trustworthy. You know, I think that's. I think there's something. There's something really interesting there. It's like. Like, for me, it's like, I know all the places I'm really bad at business, but I'm also a really good business owner. And it's like. It's like. It's like both those things exist at the same time. It's like. Like, there's a lot of people that say, no, that's a good person. It's like, what does that mean?

[69:34] Matt: Yeah.

[69:35] Michael: To say that that's a good person. And I have no problem saying that. Like, I think you're a good person. But then I think that part of that is. Is because you also know that you're not a good person.

[69:45] Matt: Well, I think there's a certain amount of. Of grace there, you know, for you to say, matt's a good person. You know, there was a time in my life when that was sort of being adjudicated publicly. And, you know, you and Allison sort of Stood up for me, said, no, Matt's a good person. That's. I think that's grace more than it is sort of like an objective read of something. I even sort of take some objection to this idea that trust is earned. I mean, I see. I see how that's true. You know, it's like. There's a. There's a component of predictability and consistency that we tend to ascribe trust to. You know, it's like you and I, for example, are very consistent on this podcast. It's like we have a certain set of things that happen every Wednesday night. And they always happen. Yes, they always happen. So much so that I don't know when this was or what was going on. You were late. And the process that we go through every Wednesday night is so trustworthy that I immediately thought, he must be dead. Like, I didn't check in with you, because I don't ever.

[71:10] Michael: Of course he's dead. He's not here at the time.

[71:12] Matt: He's not here at the time. He's gotta be dead to call Allison, you know, so there's a component of that to trustworthiness, but. But also, none of us are trustworthy. So when we say that we trust someone, we are extending to them. I think it's like we're extending our love to them. And when we say we trust someone, I think we are. What we're saying is. Is not really something about them or their behavior. What we're saying is, I trust that they are becoming who I believe they could become. That's what I'm trusting in.

[71:51] Michael: Yeah, I'm.

[71:55] Matt: I was grappling with this. I was thinking about, you know, our own failures. I was thinking about, you know, a man and a woman get married, and the man says to the woman, I'm going to love you in sickness and health. And what's the first thing that he does? It's like he fails. She doesn't pick her socks up off the goddamn floor. You know, it's like, so should the man not say that? And I think, no, he should say that. He should say that and say it, because what he is saying is, I'm always gonna correct toward this, toward that.

[72:37] Michael: That's a really great point. Yeah.

[72:39] Matt: It isn't that I'm gonna live up to it. I know I'm going to fail every time.

[72:42] Michael: Oh, that's so good.

[72:43] Matt: But I will always correct toward it.

[72:45] Michael: Yeah.

[72:45] Matt: I mean, it's sort of like,

[72:50] Michael: dude, that guy gives me the chills, honestly, like, correcting toward that.

[72:53] Matt: Yeah.

[72:53] Michael: Yeah, that's good. That's really good.

[72:57] Matt: Well, it's like if you go. You get in your car and you go drive around and you don't have a destination, you know, maybe you're on a joyride or whatever. Let me say it a different way. You do have a destination. You're going somewhere you've never been there before. You get off track, you know, you take a wrong turn, you end up somewhere you didn't expect to be. You know, no one just goes, well, here we are. Let's just be here. You know, it's like, no, you fix your directions toward where you were going. And I think that that's got to be the way that we approach each other if we love one another, is to say, here's what I'm going to correct toward. I'm not trustworthy, but I am capable of repentance, and I will repent. And in my repentance, you can find your safety.

[73:58] Michael: Man, that's crazy. Well, so can I come back to an earlier point? I love that correct towards thinking of as a child when you first realize that your parents aren't trustworthy. Because, like, there's like this really, like, this trust you have with your parents as a young child that's 100%. And at some point you start to learn that your parents are human. And it's like that. That can be really, like, disjointing, you know, and you start to have to grapple with that idea of, like, my parents aren't perfect. And then there's this later on in life where you come to realize what that means. Like. Like they're doing their best, whatever that is.

[74:52] Matt: Hopefully.

[74:52] Michael: Hopefully, yeah. In a good situation, you know, like, they're correcting towards loving that child or whatever. Like.

[75:02] Matt: Right.

[75:02] Michael: They are. Demonstrate. They demonstrate it over and over again. They're correcting towards. Although they. The child, though, it starts to experience they're falling short of that goal.

[75:12] Matt: Yeah.

[75:12] Michael: And I think that's going to be disjointing for. For a kid too. You know,

[75:18] Matt: there's one thing that I really admired about my father is that from a very young age, he would say things to me like, I failed you. He would say, I'm trying to think of a specific example, and one isn't popping into my head. But he would say something like, I failed you. I didn't treat you the way that I want to treat you, and I'm sorry. And. Gosh, that made me feel so safe.

[75:54] Michael: Yeah, that's good.

[75:57] Matt: Like, safety isn't I'm trustworthy and reliable.

[76:03] Michael: Yeah.

[76:04] Matt: Safety is the person who can tell the truth. And my dad wasn't perfect, but he would tell me the truth

[76:16] Michael: as best he could.

[76:17] Matt: As best he could, you know, and there were times when I think he even came up short in his own sort of ability to tell the truth in the best way that he could. And, you know, but he was willing to lower himself and to admit his. His. His faults and his sins, and that was a. It's an incredible thing. It's hard to do.

[76:43] Michael: Even in you just saying that, I'm like, I don't think I'm willing to do that. Yeah.

[76:48] Matt: Honestly, I had a really hard time with it, you know, just recently in my life, because I've talked about this. It's been a while on the podcast, but, like, it's been 10 years now since I got divorced and my three children with my marriage at the time, we were very young. And as I moved into being a single father, I sort of like, maybe this is kind of my personality anyways. It's like, I am very good with rules and procedures and repetition. And so I installed a bunch of rules and procedures in repetition to, like, try to keep the wheels from coming off, you know, and some of those were just like, I'm never going to be late. I'm never going to be late picking them up from school. I'm never going to drop them off late. It's like, I'm going to get up before them. I'm going to go to bed after them. I'm going to make sure this, this, and this is done. And I was very rigid, and that worked really well for a long time. And then my kids became teenagers, and that became a lot harder. And I remember this is just a couple of months ago. You and I were on a Wednesday night. We were going to go get something to eat and then do our podcast. And Wednesday nights generally are. My older kids are with their mom, and my girls called and said, hey, dad, can we come to your house? And I said, no. And I said no, because I was like, well, we're doing the podcast, and that's what we do on Wednesday nights. And I think you just need to stay with your mom. And, you know, one of my rules and regulations was kind of like, you need to be with the person you're supposed to be with. It's like, I don't want to take any time from your mom. I don't want your mom taking any time from me. It's like, be with me when it's my time, and your mom, when it's her time. And I was sort of appealing to that old rule, and then I was thinking about it later, and I was like, Gosh, they were 5 and 7 when we got divorced, and they're 15 and 17 now. They're driving. They have a car. It's like my heart changed a little bit. I said to myself, I was kind of like, well, you're mobile. You're autonomous and independent, and this home that I've put together for you to live in is your home. A custody schedule doesn't change whether or not this is your home. And as it is your home, you have unlimited access to it. And I sat them down and I told them, I said, I, I. I made this decision, you know, a couple weeks ago with you, and I told you that you need to stay at your mom's. It's your mom's night. And I said, I'm. I'm sorry. It's like my heart has changed on that. I think I was appealing to an old way. I was appealing to something that worked really well when y' all were young, but you aren't that anymore.

[79:51] Michael: Yeah, you're.

[79:52] Matt: You're women, and this is your house, and so you can be here anytime. You have a key, you know, you've got your wifi, access to the locks, all these things. It's like, I'm not. I'm never going to tell you no again. And I'm sorry that I did. And it was hard. It's hard for me to do that, you know, and they didn't really react in the way that I wished they would.

[80:20] Michael: Oh, dad, thank you so much. You're such a good father. We love you.

[80:24] Matt: They were just kind of like, okay, yeah, that's the way it should be.

[80:29] Michael: Just get on board with us.

[80:30] Matt: Yeah.

[80:31] Michael: Well, I think there's something that, like, that we struggle with. And also, as you get older is like, there was a time where that actually was really good.

[80:42] Matt: Yeah.

[80:42] Michael: And enforcing those boundaries because, like, it'd be easy for the kids to use that against the parents as far as, like, oh, it's hard being here, so I want to go be with dad. Oh, it's hard to be with dad. So I want to go be with Mom. Right. It's like, no, you need to go through that hard stuff with that parent.

[80:58] Matt: Yeah.

[80:59] Michael: And it's like, but there's this part where they start experiencing autonomy, that you have to respect that autonomy. Like, where's the line? Where's the line?

[81:07] Matt: Yeah.

[81:08] Michael: Is it 13? 13 and a half? 14. You know, it's like.

[81:11] Matt: Right.

[81:12] Michael: Who knows? It's like. It's really. I think that's the difficult things. You're almost like you're just gonna get it wrong. It's just like. How soon can you notice you're getting it wrong?

[81:20] Matt: Yeah, totally. And do you. And do you have something to correct toward?

[81:24] Michael: Yeah. Oh, that's. God, I think that's probably one of the best things. That's the name of the podcast. Do you have something to correct towards?

[81:33] Matt: That's good.

[81:37] Michael: Oh, we should probably wrap it up there. Yeah.

[81:42] Matt: Yeah. It's a long one tonight.

[81:43] Michael: It's a long one. I actually could keep going, but I probably could, too.

[81:46] Matt: But I'm also kind of surprised because when we first started, I was like, I don't know if I can do this.

[81:50] Michael: Yeah.

[81:50] Matt: Because I was feeling out of my mind.

[81:53] Michael: Yeah.

[81:54] Matt: Just trying to. To process some personal news. But I've enjoyed this conversation.

[82:01] Michael: It's therapy.

[82:02] Matt: It's therapy. Cheers.

[82:04] Michael: Thanks for coming out.

[82:05] Matt: Well, cheers to you all out there.

[82:07] Michael: Yeah.

[82:07] Matt: We love you. Christ is risen.

[82:10] Michael: All right.

[82:11] Matt: He did.