Sex Dolls, Vinyl Records, and AI — The Search for What's Real

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. You might never really know till we get started.

[0:24] Michael: That's like life. Are you really ready for life?

[0:27] Matt: No.

[0:27] Michael: So just go to the shores.

[0:28] Matt: To the shores. Cheers. Life keeps on coming. I guess one day it will stop.

[0:37] Michael: Isn't that crazy? I was actually talking with my friend Steve and just like this 46 year old, just healthy, everything just dropped dead.

[0:48] Matt: Had kids, someone that he knew. Wow.

[0:50] Michael: And it's just like, that's so crazy. I couldn't imagine just dying tomorrow.

[0:55] Matt: Yeah.

[0:55] Michael: Like, it just seems. No, I'm not done.

[0:59] Matt: Right.

[1:01] Michael: I also want to see my kids grow up and all this stuff.

[1:04] Matt: Yeah.

[1:04] Michael: Yeah. But, yeah, I think it's, it's. It's definitely good to kind of remember like, how like soon it could all be over for it is short. Yeah.

[1:16] Matt: Yeah.

[1:17] Michael: And just kind of like prioritize

[1:21] Matt: what

[1:21] Michael: is actually important, you know,

[1:25] Matt: I was having this thought the other day about, I guess, death and, you know, being on the back half of life now and thinking about all the things that I still want to do, you know, all the things that I want to get done. And I was thinking, well, I probably really need to focus on my kids and like, make everything that I do about them. Because to the extent that I succeed in doing something, I'm not gonna see it for, you know, I'm gonna die. And if I successfully created something, it's gonna live. And so it's really. It's gonna matter to my kids, Won't matter to me. I don't have all that much time left. I mean, I do. Hopefully I'll live for another 40 years at least. I say hopefully, but then I also, like, can't imagine being an old person.

[2:17] Michael: Come on, dude. We're gonna be podcasting as 80 year olds.

[2:20] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I hope we're still sharp and kicking. Yeah, totally doing that.

[2:26] Michael: Yeah.

[2:26] Matt: But just thinking about maybe when I was younger, I wanted something to be successful almost for the sake of success itself, but I just started thinking about it in different terms. Success needs to be in terms of my children because they're going to live with it longer than I will. That was kind of an interesting reframe.

[2:49] Michael: Yeah, I've been kind of a little bit discouraged in this area. You know, like, having kids is like part of the human experience and I just don't see my. But again, I don't think I really valued that until I got married and had kids.

[3:07] Matt: Right.

[3:08] Michael: So I think maybe it's more of like the old man and me.

[3:10] Matt: Like, so what was the discouragement?

[3:13] Michael: Oh, just. I just don't. I just don't really hear people talking about family like. Like, that's like a priority of some sort in their. And their trajectory, you know, and it's like, yeah, kids, maybe, or maybe not. And I kind of get it. It's like. But, you know, even in your 30s, it's like, kids, maybe, maybe not. I'm like, there's not a lot of time left.

[3:36] Matt: Right. Well, I wonder how much of that is just a side effect of all of us staring into our phones for most of our life. You know, everything is fairly solipsistic when you're just staring into your glowing Instagram machine.

[3:53] Michael: Yeah.

[3:54] Matt: And it doesn't seem like there is a lot worth doing or having that isn't about you. You know, it's like you're plugged into this thing that is literally designed to be about you.

[4:06] Michael: Yeah.

[4:06] Matt: Whereas when you put it down, it's like, what's your life about? You lift your head up and you look around and it's like, oh, I've got these children around me. I've got this home. I've got this. You know, I've got a real life. It's all right here. But you kind of lose connection with that when you're just staring into that screen. And another aspect of that is if you're in the same room with somebody else and you're both looking at your screen, you. Even though you. You're occupying the same physical space, you are in completely different headspaces. Like, you have no idea what they see on their screen and what you see on your screen.

[4:43] Michael: Yeah.

[4:44] Matt: It may seem like you're doing the same thing by looking at the same. You're both looking at your phone, but you're not, because you're getting a whole different set of content and a whole different picture of what the world is and what it looks like. So it's just so disconnecting.

[4:59] Michael: Yeah. It's even like when we were growing up, having as kids is where. Oh, did you see the episode last night?

[5:04] Matt: Right.

[5:05] Michael: And it was like everyone had that shared experience.

[5:07] Matt: Everyone had the same programming. Right.

[5:09] Michael: And it's like you're. We're getting further away. Even though that was even kind of like, don't spend too much time on the tv. But at least we were having a. A similar.

[5:17] Matt: And you could talk about it. Yeah.

[5:19] Michael: Yeah. I mean, now it's like you kind of hear it. I hear with my kids is like, with memes and, you know, certain YouTubers and there's certain shared experiences that they talk about.

[5:30] Matt: Right.

[5:30] Michael: But it's. It's happening so fast, like, to stay on top of that and to be a part of the conversation at school or with your friends or whatever, it's like there's almost like a need to, like, be on top of all those things.

[5:44] Matt: Right.

[5:45] Michael: Which is unbearably difficult to do.

[5:50] Matt: Yeah. I mean, even the news, like, when we were growing up, it mattered, I think, a little bit less whether or not the news was right or true. At least we were all seeing the same thing. And then we could talk about it and decide whether or not that was good reporting or if that was our experience in the real world. But now we're all seeing a completely different set of information. There's a part of me that wonders, like, I don't know how this is sustainable.

[6:16] Michael: Yeah.

[6:17] Matt: Like, I don't know how society lasts another couple generations with the way that things are unless we change something.

[6:26] Michael: Yeah. I think it's also, like, if you also buy into sort of like the fourth turning kind of stuff is like, this is actually a. A time of discontent and chaos and collapse. Collapse. And then, like, out of this, out of the ashes of this will come a. A resurgence of unity of some sort. And so I, I. That actually, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me is like, yeah, there's only so much chaos we can experience before we start looking for order. And, you know, a lot of times you see this in, like, revivals and stuff where, you know, you've. We've. You go so far in a certain direction, and usually there's some sort of, like, moral revival of some sort that kind of brings people back to the center.

[7:12] Matt: Yeah.

[7:13] Michael: And then it goes too far that way. So I think there's something natural about that. And we just happen to be in the.

[7:21] Matt: The chaos, doomed to always overshoot the mark totally. Or undershoot the mark. Hmm.

[7:28] Michael: Which makes sense. You see it in almost every area where, you know, it's like, you see something that's exciting, and then you start to understand it, and then you kind of go all in on it, and then you realize, oh, wait, this is a little bit more complicated than just bitcoin number go up. There's a lot of things going on here. No, but it should be like, the monetary policy of the world. You're like, well, it's a little more complicated than that.

[7:59] Matt: Did you listen to that episode on Dark Horse where he interviews the guy who wrote that Book called Hijacking Bitcoin.

[8:06] Michael: I did. I don't think I finished it, but yeah, that was just complete nonsense.

[8:12] Matt: You thought so?

[8:13] Michael: I think so.

[8:15] Matt: Do you remember what you thought?

[8:17] Michael: That's what I thought when I watched it.

[8:19] Matt: Listen to it at 4x2x2x.

[8:24] Michael: I thought he was just getting. He was getting all the points wrong.

[8:27] Matt: Interesting.

[8:28] Michael: Yeah.

[8:30] Matt: Well, I don't mean to divert to a bitcoin conversation, but I thought it was interesting. The main point that I thought was interesting was that basically the way it's developed is that it can't be the sort of replacement for cash that Satoshi originally intended it to be, which that seems right. But I don't think that that necessarily invalidates the bitcoin project. So I wonder, as we come through the end of the fourth turning and into the beginning of the next, if we're going to see a rise in popularity of things like Luddite behaviors, People getting rid of their cell phones, their smartphones, intentionally not taking phones with them when they go places. I've already sort of predicted a major backlash on feminism and a return to more, especially with women, a return to more sort of traditional ideas of male female relationships and sexed roles in relationship. Yeah, you're already kind of seeing that with the sort of trad wife wave, whether that's. Who was that one girl that was real popular? The redhead.

[9:59] Michael: Honey badger is the one that comes on my mind.

[10:00] Matt: Okay, not her. Then there's that really popular ballerina girl, Ballerina farm. She was like, I don't know if this is right, but like a New York City ballerina. She was successful and she's a model. She's gorgeous. But she's now living on a farm with her husband, raising cattle. And she has like eight kids, and she just makes. Makes sourdough and, you know, puts all this content online. Anyway. I mean, I've said this before, but I really think that women were sold a. A terrible lie over the course of the last 60 years. And I'm starting to see a lot of women, you know, react to that and sort of realize that. So a return to traditional ideas, a return to the real world, a move away from things like social media, especially as AI starts to saturate all of the content and we don't know whether anything is verifiable or real anymore. I saw somebody talking about this, like we post on social media because there is another real human to receive it. And so we have this feeling of connection. It's like I'm sharing something about Myself with another person, even though. Though it's through a screen. Right. But if AI, which it seems inevitable that it will takes over the majority of the content and is both creating and consuming the content, does that break my incentive to use social media? Because if I post something, I don't know if there's a real person who's going to receive it. And if I'm looking at something, I don't know that that was a real person that shared it with me. So I don't really know how to. How to think about a world filled with artificial content, synthetic content that isn't real people.

[11:51] Michael: That's interesting. I think it also depends on the person and their personality. That doesn't really bother me that it's AI or whether it's a real person. I do a morning spark every morning where my agent creates like a thought from like our episode and. And then we kind of talk about it and it's super meaningful to me. Like I really enjoy it and we have a back and forth about it and. And it's like it. It doesn't bother me that it's an AI because it's like what we're exploring are real ideas and things that are meaningful and. And I, I get new and deep insight from that, you know? Cause like you don't. You don't. You won't wake up with me at five in to find somebody who will.

[12:42] Matt: To be fair, you've never asked.

[12:44] Michael: That's true. Yeah, that's true. Sorry man. I have asked you to go to Squatch with me before.

[12:49] Matt: Yeah, I did say no.

[12:50] Michael: Yeah. But yeah.

[12:53] Matt: Yeah, it's interesting. I guess I. As close as you and I are and as much as we sort of share. Share heads on a lot of things.

[13:04] Michael: Yeah.

[13:05] Matt: We feel differently about this one.

[13:07] Michael: Yeah. I think it's because you're an artist. You see me roll the eyes.

[13:12] Matt: That eye roll was really interesting.

[13:13] Michael: I tried. I don't think I pulled it off though. You're an artist.

[13:20] Matt: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's explanatory of it. I don't know. But it seems to me like. Well, okay, let me ask you. What do you think the effect on people in general will be when the majority of what they see is artificial?

[13:41] Michael: Well, I think that's a. That's. I think that's a really. We'll have a more of a desire for originality. Like I think that it'll drive us to more personal experiences. But I think that right now it's the novelty of it and I feel like that's. That's actually a good thing. And. And at some point that novelty needs to wear out.

[14:08] Matt: You know, I just had an analogy which is rather crude.

[14:13] Michael: Great.

[14:14] Matt: But, like, I really do think that it matters that things are real. You know, it's like if I ordered a sex doll and began having sex with it, I might say, are you trying to say something? Well, and I'll pull it out of the crude area. Have you ever seen the movie Lars and the Real Girl? I can't remember the actor off the top of my head, but it's a really excellent. I haven't seen it in many, many years, but I thought it was really good. It's this man who's single and depressed and lonely basically gets a sex doll. But then he takes it around with him everywhere and introduces people to it as his girlfriend. And you can see how there's something disordered about this. And it's very uncomfortable to everyone in his family and friends that he's doing this. But you can also see in that story how it actually helps him to move out of the season that he was in. But the hope should always be, I think that, yes. Can you have a meaningful conversation with AI of course. But I think it's only within the context of living in the real world. And if you were to. If all of your conversations are with AI they would, I think, cease to have meaning as recognized by another person. You know, it's like, what is the meaning of the person who's living in the Matrix? It's like, are they having meaningful conversations? Yes. But they're not in the real world. And that actually matters. That distinction matters. So much so that nobody really questions it. When Neo wants to wake up from the Matrix and no one sort of says, when he wakes up from the Matrix and realizes where he is on a planet where the sun has been scorched and there's no sunlight and they have to live underground and they have sentinels chasing them, trying to kill them all the time. And they're eating mush and life's shit. Right? But no one was, man, why did he wake up? Life shit here. He should have stayed in there. And that's fleshed out a little bit in the character of Cypher because he wants to go back. But I think that there's a deep. There's something deep there where a person who isn't completely disordered like Cypher, obviously, who's willing to commit murder to accomplish that end. There's something unnatural about things that are fake. Just like we tend to, I think, feel very uncomfortable around someone who's fake. The analogy that came to my mind was Chandler in the show Friends. He keeps getting back together with that ex girlfriend of his who's like, completely has that obnoxious voice. Do you remember this?

[17:14] Michael: Kind of.

[17:15] Matt: And everybody kind of is nice to her, but everyone has this sense that she's like. She's a very fake person. You get that. I think with some politicians, they seem like a complete facade. Everything that they say is instrumental towards some end that they have. Even their expressed ends that they have are just instrumental of something more hidden. And there's something in us that is deeply, I think, deeply sort of hesitant about that kind of thing. And so to me, I would expect that if online becomes a completely fake place, which there was already this thing called the Dead Internet theory, which is that something like already 90% of quote unquote, people on the Internet aren't real people. They're chatbots or whatever. I think we're going to become more and more reluctant to spend our time engaging with it because it's going to feel not that it's not meaningful, but that it's not meaningful in a way that's connected to something real. I mean, it's almost like the sex doll. I could say, well, that's meeting my very real need for. For intimacy to express my sexuality. And you might say there might be something true about that. But I also think maybe you don't have a full definition of intimacy because intimacy is something different. Intimacy is something that you get from a real person who wants to love you and also hates you at the same time. And there's a really. There's another movie reference. I'm blanking on the name of it at the moment, but Julianne Moore is in it and she's trying to sort of teach this to a younger man who's just addicted to pornography and serial dating. Women trying to go get laid all the time. And she's just like, you're not getting it. You think you're having a lot of sex. That's not what sex is. It's something totally different. Yeah, and it's your. It's sort of your childish naivety that's keeping you from discovering that.

[19:34] Michael: Well, I mean, maybe it's. Maybe it kind of fits in the same category as, like, the Pharisees and the Law, you know, like, you have this sort of. This thing that's a substitute for the real thing. Like it's supposed to point to something. It's not supposed to be the thing itself. So like AI is not supposed to be in and of itself fulfilling, but it's supposed to maybe help you move into a fulfilling life. Like the law, the Jewish law was supposed to help you move into a fulfilling life. So I think that's the part is like we, maybe we just miss. We can kind of misappropriate the importance of AI to an end and of itself and not as a means which

[20:21] Matt: I'm sure we will make that mistake totally.

[20:22] Michael: I already do. And I do too. It's like, yeah, I think it's just our orientation that we, we have to learn is like, what is, what do you, what do you put at the highest? And if you put your self fulfillment at the highest, it's like, you know, you're going to do whatever it is to, to fulfill that need.

[20:43] Matt: Right. Seems like we keep coming back to this idea over and over. Well, it's like, what, what do you put at the highest? I mean, it's, it's like what is the meaning pointing to? If the meaning that you seek is self sufficient, then it's like you're not seeking the highest meaning. I mean, you know, it's like even with the sort of sex example, it's like it's not even really also only about intimacy. It's about procreation and it's about a relationship in which you are both committed to God, not to just simply serving each other's needs and pleasuring each other and supporting each other. I heard somebody talking about how the marriage vow is not actually a vow to each other, it's a vow to God. I say, I'm not promising to you, I'm promising to God that I'm going to love you. And I thought that was a really interesting thing because the marriage vow is in some sense, it's kind of ridiculous. I promise to love you in sickness and in health. Well, as soon as I say it, I know I'm not going to live up to that, right? I mean, if I'm honest with myself and maybe I think I'm capable of it. But you know, you're not going to think that in 10 years you're going to be like, you've let me down all the time. So actually I think it serves a purpose to make that commitment to God because God is also the only one who can forgive you when you fail to meet the expectation that you set for yourself. There's a mechanism there of renewal after failure. If I simply commit to you or commit to the person I'm saying the bow to, well, can you really, truly forgive me when I break it? Maybe you can, but maybe your forgiveness is also imperfect, just like my promise. And the only place for the perfect forgiveness that can handle an imperfect promise is God. It seems like all of that, then ordered, ultimately makes something like sex and intimacy extremely meaningful and powerful. But as long as you are stuck in the lower order, sort of hedonistic, selfish definition of the purpose of sex, well, then you might find yourself like Lars with the sex doll instead of in a very real and meaningful relationship.

[23:23] Michael: Yeah.

[23:29] Matt: And back to the idea of, like, how society going to respond. It's like, we already know that society has an appetite for, you know, going back to older things and experiencing things differently. Like, you know, you saw really, beginning at the beginning, at the beginning of the 2000s, a resurgence of vinyl records. And anyone, myself included, I started collecting vinyl records, like, 25 years ago, and I've actually put out an album on vinyl. And I will say to you, well, the sound is different, but it's also more about the experience. It's like, there's a difference between being in my car and saying, you know, hey, Siri, play Fleetwood Mac and whatever. It just starts. Yeah, there she is. She should learn how to decipher when I'm talking to you. There's a difference between that and the intention of walking into a room in which the music is housed. You actually have to go to the music because it's, like, physically rooted. It's physically rooted both in the object, which is the final record, but also in the player, which you can't easily move. So you have to go into that space. You have to physically find it among all the other records. And hey, highly recommend alphabetizing your record collection, but it's also hard to keep up with that. And then it's like, if you want to enjoy the music, would. What do you do? It's like, you sit down, you pay attention, whereas when everything's digital, you really stop doing that. And then it's hard to skip tracks, Right. So you listen to a whole record and you get. And you're like, whoa, okay, I see what Jackson Brown is doing there on this record when he started with this song, and he saved my favorite song till number five because he took me on this journey that if I just skipped right to my favorite song, I would have missed.

[25:25] Michael: Yeah.

[25:25] Matt: And so you find something really meaningful in those sort of. In the tasks that take some investment from you. They take some effort and investment. So I also suspect that we'll see more of that kind of thing. Things worth having are actually worth working for. And they are made more meaningful by the working for them, by the delayed gratification of waiting for them. And as everything becomes more and more instinct and on demand. You know, I remember thinking about this, like, when my dad, when I was young, used to love Star Trek and he would. He would tape it onto VHS so he could watch it later. It was like Star Trek in this old house. You know, everyone once in a while, he'd accidentally tape over a family home video or something. But anyway, in Star Trek, food is just solved. You just go up to the machine and you say, this is what I want, and it materializes. And this sounds kind of like a cool idea. And why wouldn't that be possible? Because you're just rearranging atoms. And I remember even as a kid thinking, yeah, but would they really enjoy it? Would you. Would you enjoy food that's delivered instantly on demand, or it's the same with no limitation? Yeah.

[26:50] Michael: That doesn't have any variation of, like, it's cooked medium rare, perfect every single time.

[26:55] Matt: Right.

[26:55] Michael: Maybe it doesn't have a charred end or something that gives it that imperfection that actually makes it unique and different.

[27:01] Matt: Right. You know, or even just like the. Like, I really hate. I don't actually think I've ever done it, like, ordering groceries because, like, I want to go in the store, I want to pick my steak out.

[27:16] Michael: Yeah.

[27:16] Matt: I want to see what's available. I want to see the different cuts because generally I'm going to want a tenderloin. But, you know, every once in a while, the New York strip looks really good. And rib eye is not my super favorite, but every once in a while, that one looks really good. So I want to actually go see what's available and say, this is the one that's kind of calling to me. Or it's like I want to pick up my produce. You know, I want to be able to pick it up and hold it and smell it. Like, that's so much a part of the experience. I mean, it's like, I think it's this error that we make when we think. When we think we know what something is for. Like, breast milk is to nourish a baby. Okay, great. If the mom can't breastfeed, well, we've got formula that also nourishes the baby. No downside. Right. Well, you made a mistake because you thought you understood what was happening when breastfeeding was happening, but you didn't. And the more we study it, the more we find that breast milk is a fucking miracle. It changes its own contents in response to the saliva on the baby's lips. It changes from morning to night. More melatonin at night, more stimulants in the morning. I mean, it's doing so much more. Not to mention the physical connection between child and mother.

[28:36] Michael: That occurs in health for both. Yeah.

[28:37] Matt: In health for both. That occurs in the act of breastfeeding. Not. Not just considering the contents of the milk, but the actual act of doing it. I mean. Yeah.

[28:49] Michael: So I've even heard, like, there's stuff like, even gut health into your.

[28:52] Matt: Yeah.

[28:52] Michael: You know, later years. It's like breastfed babies are. Have better gut health into their later years.

[28:58] Matt: Right.

[28:59] Michael: Yeah. So fascinating. I. I really love. Because, like, I. I probably lean more in the other direction. Like, I. Like, I see what you're saying and the value of that as far as, like, the experience and the intention and paying attention, I think I'm kind of more caught up in what is possible right now and the excitement around AI and the future and food that can just materialize in front of you. To me, all that stuff really excites me. And it's like, I want that, but I do see, like, the value of what you're talking about as far as, like, I think those other experiences will become that much more sacred, you know, because you're actually taking time to do something that could be done for you in 10 seconds. It's like, even right now, it's like, I used to read at least three to five books a month, you know, at least. And I have read maybe three books this year. And then when I sit down and I read, I'm just like, oh, I forget that just spending the time reading and the slowness and the engagement is something different. But again, maybe like, you know, 50, 75 years ago, it's like, where all you had were books, those were also escapes, you know, similar to what we have now. Maybe not as. As addictive as Instagram is, but you can just lose yourself in the world of all these other universes and stuff.

[30:40] Matt: And the old people saying, when I was a kid, we used to sit around and tell each other stories, and we had to memorize the stories because we didn't have them written down.

[30:47] Michael: Totally. So I think there's going to be a sort of evolution of how AI And a lot of these sort of, you know, music, art, that's going to kind of. That's going to kind of. It's going to grow alongside of this. And I think the appreciation for even if food is, like, readily available to us at a push of a button, which it kind of is with TV dinners or whatever it might be.

[31:16] Matt: Right.

[31:17] Michael: Is like, it is so different to, like, when Allison prepares a meal for us or I cook on the grill. It's like there's a whole experience around it that is just different. It's not about what we consumed, it's about the whole experience of it.

[31:31] Matt: Yeah.

[31:32] Michael: And I think those. Those will become.

[31:34] Matt: And there are, I mean, rightfully, I think, worth mentioning that there are also times when it's just like, fuck it, we're driving through Chick Fil A. We just need to solve a problem right now.

[31:45] Michael: Which amazing. In our modern world, like, you couldn't do that, you know, 30, 50 years ago. I keep saying 30, 50 years ago, and I keep catching myself because, like, oh, that was like 1990.

[31:57] Matt: Yeah.

[31:58] Michael: Like, when I'm in my head, I'm thinking 1950s. It's like, it's just not the case.

[32:03] Matt: But realistically, it wasn't that long ago that, I mean, you ate what you had available on your property. You know, it wasn't even like you could just go to a grocery store and pick shit up.

[32:15] Michael: Yeah.

[32:15] Matt: It's like you had to raise the animal to grow the vegetables.

[32:26] Michael: Yeah. It's something that. I don't know. I think those things will definitely come back as far as a part of our way. But I think I'm just so excited. The things I'm learning with AI right now are just so much fun. And also just the battle of, you know, whether it be on X or whatever it is, is like, is this true? And that's a really weird question to ask. But to have something that can, if you ask it and if you're interested, you know, provide me with a different perspectives on this view.

[33:06] Matt: Right.

[33:07] Michael: And it's so much easier to accessible than me having to go do research in libraries and trying to figure out the historical context of. Of this. And where did this argument start? And is this person actually saying the rightful source materials? And so that's something I've really enjoyed about AI and kind of the modern digital age is that it's a lot more accessible. But I think the hard part of it is you can kind of get into your own silos. And like you were saying at the beginning of the podcast is like, it's like we experience different realities because different realities are being presented to us. If you're not curious enough to know what, how could that reality that I'm paying attention to be wrong or the arguments again. So it's like there's no incentive for it to come to you because you're not asking for it. It's like the algorithm is just going to feed you what you want. If you're not curious on the other viewpoints, then you're not going to get it. And without the human interaction, where you'd go to a church or school or even to work nowadays, where you would be presented with alternative ideas, it's like it's so much easier to silo yourself into whatever perspective that you.

[34:34] Matt: Well, isn't that interesting that I was just thinking. Yeah, until they lock us down again. It's like they locked us down and then they basically made alternate points of views illegal. And very few people, it seemed, had alternate points of view because we weren't going and rubbing shoulders with people in church or school or work. You know, it's hard to be presented with differing views when work is at home and happens through zoom, you know, that no one really wants to be on anyway. And so there's no water cooler talk. It's just like, get to the point and get off.

[35:14] Michael: Yeah.

[35:15] Matt: And so it's sort of a. It was almost like a covet, was like a physical. Almost like a physical requirement to plug yourself into the matrix.

[35:27] Michael: Yeah. Well, I think that's what bothered you and I a lot through that time. It's just. It's like I just kept feeling like I was being told what to think, and I'm just like, whoa, fucking hey, dude. Like, I just, I just want to know, like, what are, what's, what's the, what's the map here? Like, give me like a, A broad understanding of what this, what we're going, what's happening here.

[35:47] Matt: Yeah.

[35:49] Michael: And I think that it becomes easier and easier within the digital age. I think that's one thing that's really difficult. Or whenever an AI is captured and only presents you with a certain viewpoint, you know, that can be very dangerous, you know, because you could put your trust in something that you thought was giving you a broader perspective, when actually it's not.

[36:14] Matt: Right. I don't know how we're going to escape that danger. I mean, we're already treating AI as if what it's telling us is true.

[36:21] Michael: Totally.

[36:22] Matt: You know, it's like, listen to Joe Rogan and he's like seven or eight times in every podcast now saying, let's plug that into perplexity and ask it and just sort of taking it as truth. I don't know how we do anything different because we don't have the ability to check the AI because we're asking it things that we already don't have

[36:44] Michael: the ability to check. You know, totally. Which is amazing on one side because it's like, it has the potential to broaden your horizons as far as, like, I can now check on an obscure text that I had no. I had no, like, access to, and now I have access to it. Like, there's a lot of, like, talk around AI where it's a kind of an equalizer in that, you know, people that didn't have things available to them. It's like, you can get a Harvard education.

[37:19] Matt: Yeah.

[37:19] Michael: Online or through AI if you just want to like it still, it still requires you to desire and to pursue.

[37:29] Matt: I also feel like I'm. I'm sort of hearing Brett and Heather in my head right now, sort of saying, like, you're making the mistake of thinking that an education is about information. You don't go get an education because they have information that you don't. I mean, that is part of it. But a good educator is going to teach you how to think. You know, it's dead Poet Society. It's. It's Robin Williams in what was the first movie Matt Damon and Ben Affleck made. I'm blanking on the name of it.

[38:04] Michael: Beautiful. Not Beautiful Mind. Oh, my gosh. Good Will Hunting.

[38:08] Matt: Good Will Hunting, yeah. You know, he's. Will is in therapy with Robin Williams character. And Will is thinking it's about some kind of information that he doesn't have. And Robin Williams is teaching him. No, it's about. It's about basically this. That scene when he hugs Will. So powerful. It's about love. And education is about learning how to think. It's about learning how to be contested. It's about learning what an argument is. It's about learning how to exist in a society. And that is productive towards some end. And I think if we. The interesting thing to me about AI is that, well, AI is a tool. Right. I saw this great meme, said something like a kid saying, mom, why are we poor? And she responds, because your dad signed up for Claude Max and never shipped anything.

[39:13] Michael: Totally. That's all that I was like. That's kind of mean. Maybe.

[39:19] Matt: But I say that because, well, the tool has to be for something. A tool is made with a purpose, some end in mind. And if we fail to use this tool for a purpose, well, what good is it? But the interesting thing is it Might be one of the most powerful tools we've ever created because it is relational. You have something like a relationship with an AI. And my contention, we've talked about it a lot on the podcast over the years, is that relationship is the fundamental layer of reality. And so it's sort of the first and foremost thing that we understand, even though we don't really understand it very well. But so to talk with an AI relationally might make it one of the most powerful tools, which also might make it one of the most deadly weapons if we are not careful with how we use it.

[40:24] Michael: Well, I'm kind of struck by. Tell me what you think about this, because it's also like, how. How you come to be in the moment. And kind of what I'm thinking of is like. Like, I went to school and I went to college and got a degree in philosophy and history, and it's like, I really felt like I learned how to think. So I could. I feel like in general, I could almost do anything because I know how to think. And the other part is just skills. It's like, oh, you just have to learn the skill. But I know how to think. And it's like doing that. I had a lot. And being in coffee shops all the time, I had a lot of discussions and conversations with people from different perspectives. And so there's this sort of like. So the reason I make that point is so when I approach AI, I'm coming at it from this place of, like, already having that foundation of being able to have conversations like you and I have had for, you know, decades, over a decade, you know, And. And so I just. I just. I just find this as a continuation of that. Like, there's a. Oh, here's another tool for that. But if you don't have the. The experience of having that with other people, it becomes. It can become a substitute, and it becomes a. Almost a. A false idol in that sense, where it's no longer a tool. It becomes a substitute for the. The thing itself, which is intimacy and. And discussion and interaction with another human being that, you know, it's like, AI is not going to give you the. Like, huh? You're like, what did that mean? Was that like. Like, oh, that's a good point. I'm stumped. Or. I don't know about that. You know, it's like you just don't get that same sort of texture in the conversation with an AI.

[42:23] Matt: Yeah.

[42:24] Michael: And you're also facing somebody that doesn't have that maybe that, like, you're talking about all those facts or. Or information, you know?

[42:32] Matt: Yeah.

[42:34] Michael: Well,

[42:37] Matt: maybe the big problem is that I think especially over the last six years, we as a society, maybe as the whole world, I don't know, have largely failed to educate our. I mean, as far as I can tell, education stopped in 2020. And when I talk to my kids about it, it doesn't seem to me like anyone's even trying.

[43:00] Michael: Yeah.

[43:00] Matt: In the public school system, I think may. The school y'. All. What your kids are going to is a little bit different. But I'm.

[43:06] Michael: Which is. Which is fascinating because, like, now Hannah is at public school at Bowie, and it's like, she is so not challenged at all. It is so freaking easy. It's insane.

[43:20] Matt: Yeah.

[43:21] Michael: And I mean, she's a smart girl anyways, but, like. But it's just not. They're not being challenged.

[43:28] Matt: Yeah.

[43:28] Michael: No matter how much my kids complain about the other school that they're at,

[43:32] Matt: it's like they're being challenged.

[43:34] Michael: Yeah. And they have something to push against, too. They almost give them something to. What do you call it? Rebel against. Like, and. And it's actually healthy. They don't see it as healthy as, like, oh, they're so this. They're so that. It's like.

[43:49] Matt: It's like.

[43:50] Michael: Actually, no, they're making. They're kind of making you think by being so strict on you and giving you something to rebel. And I don't think that school actually sees it this way, but it's actually beneficial and healthy. It's like, no, we're going to be the sort of the. The wall, which you kind of beat

[44:08] Matt: yourself against yourself against.

[44:11] Michael: You're going to resent us and not like it, but it's actually to your benefit. And I don't think they come at it with that sort of pure. They kind of come up more of a puritanical way.

[44:23] Matt: Yeah. I remember feeling that way when I went to public school in sixth grade. I'd been homeschooled previously. And I remember I felt so bored for, like, the first year and just being, like, really shocked when I would. And I was just used to asking questions.

[44:39] Michael: Yeah.

[44:40] Matt: And I would ask a question, and I would either get sort of reprimanded for being off topic, you ask a question, or I get the answer back, like, we're not there yet. We're not talking about that yet.

[44:52] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[44:53] Matt: And I'd be like, well, yeah, but it's still a great. This interesting question is right here. We could just talk about it. And I just remember learning to just sit still and quiet. And I turned my brain off.

[45:05] Michael: Yeah.

[45:06] Matt: And I, I remember feeling very sad about that. But, yeah, if we have failed to educate our children largely, you know, I wonder how they're going to end up using things like AI or just talking about substitutes. You know, like, I already think that, you know, pornography has essentially become utterly normalized in our culture to where we don't even really see it anymore. I mean, I notice it sometimes when I'm like scrolling through Instagram or something and all of a sudden I'm like, this is porn. I just forgot to classify it that way because it's so ubiquitous. And there is a difference between porn and what you see on Instagram. Obviously Instagram has community guidelines, but my point is that the category itself has. The lines have been so blurred, and especially, I would say female sexuality has become so encouraged to be sort of blatant and outright and in your face through the social media apps. And, you know, you see this with so many, you know, women making a living on things like OnlyFans or whatever, that we fail to make category distinctions about what's what. And so we're very vulnerable to, Well, being sold a substitute and forgetting that there was such a thing as the real thing.

[46:49] Michael: Yeah, that's something that's. This maybe still feels like. Makes me feel so pure and danical or like old fashioned, but like there's not a singer out there, a popular singer that is not just like their entire body is shown. Shown.

[47:07] Matt: Yeah.

[47:08] Michael: And. And it's, it's, it's something that. And again, it sounds so horrible, but it's just sort of like it feels like it's a stripper act. Yeah. And maybe I'm being too harsh, but it's like I'm like, it seems like everything in order for you to perform, like, you almost have to have like, it's almost a stripper act, you know, And I don't even know what men do nowadays. Like, like, men are musical artists. Do you even, like, are there any. I mean, there's like Ed Sheeran, you know. Yeah.

[47:45] Matt: But like, it feels like, who's the most popular music musician on the planet? Yeah, most days. I mean, yeah, there are males. But I think the point that you're making is that, yes, women, I mean, women have always been highly sexualized. Right. I mean, sex is about women, sex is not about men. So that kind of makes sense. But the interesting thing is, do you remember, I guess it was in the 90s or early 2000s when J. Lo showed up to the Grammys, wearing the dress that had, like, showed massive cleavage and it was just like a scandal. You remember this?

[48:22] Michael: I don't.

[48:23] Matt: And now you just regularly see celebrities tits out, you know, or see through dresses, and we just don't even really notice it anymore. It's not a scandal, at least. And so you might predict that, like, a culture that has become highly sexualized would be highly sexual, and the opposite actually turns out to be true. We live in a highly sexualized society, and people are having less sex than ever and having less babies than ever. It's like we substitute it with the fake thing. We substitute the icon for the idol. And the idol itself has this, like. It hollows itself out. It's like CS Lewis has this great line something like, things become dumb idols and break the hearts of their worshipers, because that's all an idol can do is break the heart of its worshiper.

[49:23] Michael: Yeah.

[49:24] Matt: And it seems like, yeah, we're highly sexualized and yet we've forgotten what sex is, so we're not even really interacting with it anymore. I mean, wouldn't the same be true for, you know, other things like philosophy, intellectualism? Like, if we hollow these things out and we say, oh, well, AI knows the answers to these, do we lose touch with the real thing? And all of a sudden the real thing starts mattering less and less at the same time, and we just stop seeing a need for it. Then it's like, I guess I don't need philosophy.

[50:14] Michael: What's that movie? Idiocracy?

[50:17] Matt: Yeah. I don't know if I ever saw it.

[50:19] Michael: Yeah, it's not worth seeing. I had a friend that worked on that movie set, and they're like, they asked him to go do some research on pornography, and he was like, I'm not going to go research pornography. He kind of drew the line there, and it was really funny. But it's basically like everyone's so dumb. And then this one guy who was in a coma for 30 years or whatever, I don't know, or he was frozen or. I'm not sure exactly how that works. Worked out. And he comes like, he's like the smartest man alive. And he's a. He's a dumb, dumb.

[50:47] Matt: You know, he just happens to be relative to.

[50:53] Michael: But it's just something about that, like. Yeah. Like, you know, if you don't, you have to be able to struggle and to work through things on your own and to. And to sit with an idea for a period of time. Like, it's not just about knowing something yeah. It's about it becoming yours. Something that you possess, like your relationship with it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:18] Matt: And it's kind of like. Trying to remember who might have said this to me when I was younger. Probably my mom when she was homeschooling me, or, you know, one of the couple of really good teachers I had in middle school and high school. But I'm sure that you've heard things like this when you were younger, which is something like. Well, say it in your own words now. It's like you've demonstrated to me that you have the right words, but I can tell that they're not your words. What does that mean? I know intuitively what that means because it was said a lot to me. I don't know that teachers are saying that to children anymore, but there is something to that. It's like when something becomes yours, not only do you have command of it, you have insight about it. And it's important because no one has the full picture. We need each other's insights.

[52:14] Michael: Totally.

[52:15] Matt: You know, it's like I was thinking earlier about when we were talking about, you know, artificial content. And I was listening to this episode of a podcast where this guy interviewed Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins. Really interesting. Billy Corgan's always.

[52:34] Michael: Do you know he's Bill Burr's brother? Half brother.

[52:36] Matt: I don't think that's true. I saw a clip going around where they were talking about that.

[52:40] Michael: Okay, maybe it's not true.

[52:41] Matt: I think it's a hoax. I think they think it's funny because they do look similar.

[52:46] Michael: Okay, okay, maybe so. Sorry, go ahead.

[52:49] Matt: Billy Corgan's a sharp guy. And, you know, hearing him talk about how everything went down in these very formative years of mine, you know, when Smashing Pumpkins and Grunge and Nirvana, all of that was going on, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden, and it's like. It's like nostalgia turned up to 11 is great. But he was talking about how he won't. He was like, I will not touch AI. And he's like. He basically said to me, it seems like I would be leaning into something demonic.

[53:22] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[53:23] Matt: And he was like, I will never, ever use AI in the music that I create. And I think thinking about AI in music puts into kind of contrast one of the problems or the dangers of AI. And maybe it's just interesting to me because I am a songwriter. It's like, what do you do? I have this friend of the family who. He's sending me all these songs. He's making with AI and the prompts he uses to make them. And I've never listened to a whole one. I just can't really stand it. But I was thinking about, like, what is a song? It's kind of like, well, the education isn't just about information. What is a song? It's not just about the. The way that the airwaves vibrate. There's something else going on there. And you. You can kind of see it when you ask yourself a question like, Leonard Cohen wrote the song Hallelujah. Jeff Buckley made that song. What it is and what most people know it as, is that the same song when Leonard Cohen sings it and when Jeff Buckley sings it, are they singing the same song? And I think that the answer is intuitively no. That's why people gravitated to Jeff Buckley singing it. And no one really gravitates to Leonard Cohen almost about anything. But I kind of lost the thread where we got down this tangent here.

[54:59] Michael: Let me kind of like throw a. Throw a wrench in here because. So I'm reading Foundation right now, and there's this instrument that this magnifico he plays that is like, obviously has AI type aspects to it, but the way he plays it and the strings he pulls manifests something that is, like, beyond explanation, where, like, a novice would be able to play it and it'd be interesting, but still kind of like AI slop. And I also see that also with. As I'm working with my agent on different things, it's like I really have to be engaged in order to make it produce something that has some sort of value to it. So I can also see, like, right now we're just learning a bunch of the preliminaries of what AI can do. But it really comes down to the creator of whatever it is that you're creating. And, you know, you kind of saw this with, you know, Napster and then Spotify and all that kind of stuff is like, anybody could put a record out. And so there's a lot of, like, slop out there. But at the same time, it sort of democratized the world of music to be available to people that did have talent and ability to put their stuff out there in a way that the public could hear. So I think there's a. There's an element that. Or kind of in that sort of AI slop area where, you know, I can show Donald Trump eating a McDonald's hamburger and smiling and talking about Iran or Iran or whatever. You know, it's like, it's like, that's cool. That's kind of novel right now. But it's not, it's not lasting But I think there, I think there will be. I think there will be real art, like AI artists that are phenomenal and amazing because they, they take an idea and way beyond any. What any other person has ever done before. And then it'll be copied, but it'll be copied a lot faster. So even with music, I mean, you think about how you had to record music in the 70s versus the 80s versus the 90s, like you could kind of say that's somewhat AI related. And we were having that same discussion between like vinyl, a track, you know, tape, CDs. And it seems like this is kind of a continuation of a lot of those same conversations, but everything's just going so expensive. It's like sort of the exponential curve of, you know, technology that we kind of don't know what to do with what we have right now.

[57:52] Matt: I don't know. I don't think that this is a technological advance in the same way that moving from, let's say making a record recording to tape. Changed when the computer came out. Right. We started recording to a computer, digital recording. So analog to digital. This is not like that. I don't think it is. This is not just another tool in the toolbox. I think that this tool challenges some extremely deep and basic fundamental. So deep and basic that we don't really have language to talk about it with. Okay, I get you about the way that we perceive reality and about what things are. So, like, what is a song? Okay, we never had to ask that question before. Yeah, right now we have to ask that question.

[59:01] Michael: Yeah, because you have. Milli Vanilla was the first time we had that, you know, question. What is a song? They were lip singing. It's like, what are you performing? Or are you just lip singing? And it's like, well, is it wrong that you're lip singing to the. To the Voices single?

[59:15] Matt: I think we've had this conversation before because you keep saying lip singing.

[59:19] Michael: What is it?

[59:20] Matt: Lip syncing.

[59:21] Michael: Oh, lip syncing.

[59:22] Matt: Because you're sinking your lips with the

[59:23] Michael: pre recorded audio, but they're also lip singing. Sorry.

[59:28] Matt: That's what I call kissing. That's what I call making out. I mean. Yeah. And that sort of raised a very interesting question. Like, well, okay, what, what's the. Why would it matter to us, right? If we're hearing what we want to hear, why would it matter? But it does because it's like, why do we go to concerts I could listen to this shit in my car. Why do I have to spend 150 bucks and wait in line and spend $30 on a beer to go hear you sing it? Right?

[60:03] Michael: Oh, thanks.

[60:03] Matt: It's because it matters.

[60:05] Michael: Yeah.

[60:06] Matt: It's like I've seen Tom Petty maybe six times live before he died, and I would go anytime you wanted me to go, like. Because it. It's like, it's not the same.

[60:16] Michael: Yeah.

[60:17] Matt: Because when a great artist plays a song, it is not the same song. Right. You hear something new and different, they sing it differently every time. So there's a fundamental question about, like, okay, what is it that we think we're talking about when we say song? And now that question is even in starker relief, because I can go prompt an AI right now to create a In Scare Quotes song, and it will do it.

[60:49] Michael: You could turn our podcast into a song right now?

[60:51] Matt: Sure.

[60:53] Michael: That'd be awesome.

[60:54] Matt: Please don't. But so these are very deep and fundamental questions. I mean, I think we're going to have to ask this. So about relationship, too. It's like, what is a relationship? Ultimately, I think it comes down to what is truth? What is true? What is true about a relationship? What is true about a song, what is true about a story, what is true about art. These are very hard questions to answer. But I think actually my prediction is, I said this to you a couple of weeks ago. I said, I think I sort of see the mechanics of revelations, the mechanics of the end times. And I think the reason. And there's some negative reasons for why I say that, but the positive reason for it is, I think a prediction is that in the same way that people might sort of turn to things like Ludditism. Is that a word? Ludditeism?

[61:50] Michael: Yeah.

[61:51] Matt: Or more traditional values. I think really what they're going to be doing is turning away from things fake and turning towards something real. And so here's another deep question. It's like, what is real?

[62:04] Michael: Yeah, that's us.

[62:05] Matt: And I think that what is real? Well, you might say what is real? And then what is most real? And that thing, the answer to the question, what is most real? Is that thing that it's at the highest place. It is truth itself. And truth itself is not a fact. It isn't a piece of information. It is a person. It is a relationship. And that is what is most real. And I think that people are, you're already seeing, I think, people flocking to religious ideas, religious solutions, and I think there's going to be a massive revival of Christianity as people sort of implicitly deal with these very difficult questions and find that the answer is in what's real.

[63:03] Michael: Yeah.

[63:06] Matt: And that's very. That's very end of times. And at the same time, you're seeing this really kind of crazy, what would you call it? Islam and Christianity are being pitted against each other and culture is largely being asked to choose, which is so interesting that that's happening. I've been kind of stunned by it and thinking a lot about that and why that is. But that to me is also a. It's a pointer in the direction of end times.

[63:45] Michael: Yeah, it's. It's hard for me to kind of

[63:47] Matt: like,

[63:50] Michael: it's like, what is real? And I think that's something that has kind of always baffled me. Like. Like a lot of people would say, like, non fiction is real and fiction is false. But like, you know, some of the conversations, you know, I've had, sometimes fiction is more real than non fiction.

[64:07] Matt: Right.

[64:07] Michael: And I think sometimes, like, and I think just because there's so much slop out there right now is like that. I think through some of these new technological advances that I think we could actually get to something that's even more real. But it's how it's, again, it's a tool and how you use it.

[64:29] Matt: Yeah. Peterson had had this great way of saying that. That has always stuck with me. He said, you know, if you want to know what's true about battle, well, go to a battle and you're going to learn something about battle. But then if you have 10 battles and then you write down what is true across 10 battles, it's like you're distilling the essence of battle. What you wrote down was not necessarily true of any one battle, but it is the true, true essence of battle. I think that that sort of tugs at the difference between fiction and nonfiction and the fact that a nonfiction or a fiction rather can be much more true than any given non fiction because it can extract the essence of something. So I'm willing to go with you on that. Maybe AI as a tool is something that, well, extracts more of what is true than our limited experience can gain on its own. Although you would have thought that would have been true of the Internet. And I'm not sure that the Internet has really delivered on that.

[65:49] Michael: But again, it's a tool and it depends on. It depends on the user. Like, like for you and I going through Covid, like, even though the Internet was full of all the stuff that we're Supposed to see, like, we were asking different. The other questions. Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, are more black people being killed by cops disproportionately? And it's like, well, if you look at all the news articles that say yes, it's like, okay, what are the statistics? Take me to that. It's like. And again, not that the statistics be right, or it's like. But at least you're asking the question, like, well, how did they come to this conclusion? And so it's like.

[66:36] Matt: It's really interesting. I ran across a clip of Roland Fryer, who was the black Harvard professor who did the study in 2019 on police violence. Yeah. And he was talking about how he set out to do this study. And he was like, I'm black. I've never really liked the police very much. I fully expected to find that black people were getting murdered at a much higher rate than other races in America. He's like, I did the study, and I was shocked at what I found, that there's no evidence for that. He was like. And I was so shocked at it, I fired everybody who worked on the study and hired a new group of people and had them do it again. And they found the exact same thing. He goes, I did that three times. And then 2020 happened, and George Floyd happened and Harvard fired him and deleted the paper.

[67:28] Michael: Yeah.

[67:29] Matt: And I remember. I think that's the first, like, scientific study I've ever, like, read the whole thing because all that craziness was going on, and I was like, I need to read an actual study. And I read that whole thing. Yeah, but I mean, you're making a point that. Yeah, it depends on the user. I think you're right. But I'm thinking in more. I'm thinking in more of artistic ways. No, no. What's the guy's name in foundation?

[68:00] Michael: Seldon.

[68:01] Matt: Seldon. More of the sort of Seldon big picture. It's like, yeah, maybe there are handfuls of people who use the thing. Right. But, like, how is this going to work on our cultural, social, imaginary, you know, culturally? We decided that truth was not only inconvenient, but dangerous in 2020. Right. You and I didn't decide that. I say we. It's like we as a culture decided that and chewed up and spit out anybody who wouldn't go along with it, you know, fired them, despite the fact that Roland Fryer was black. It's like, you shouldn't have been able to fire him because he was black. Right.

[68:43] Michael: Yeah.

[68:44] Matt: No, we had to fire him because he came up with Inconvenient Truths. So at the cultural level, that's kind of, I think, where I'm thinking more about it. But, I mean, I think as a tool, you're right. Like, the guy who was interviewing Billy Corgan was making this point. He was like, I think AI is a powerful tool. Like, if you just want to flesh out a quick song idea really fast, I can do that really fast. And Billy Corgan pushed back in a way that I thought was really brilliant. And he was like. He's like, no, speed is not the point. An artist needs frustration. An artist needs the times when he thinks he has come to the end of what he has to say, that he doesn't have any more words. He needs to have those times of creative, to use the word frustration. It's like, that's when the good stuff happens.

[69:36] Michael: See, I find that with AI too. Like, I still. I have that with, like, coming to that.

[69:42] Matt: Those times. I'm trying to convince you to stop using AI. You don't need to defend it.

[69:46] Michael: I know you're not, but, I mean, I think that there's. It's, it's. It's. I feel like there's. There's this part that if you are actually pursuing something, it's the intent, then you're going to get frustrated with whatever you're using. Now, if you're just willing, if you're just wanting to get positive feedback, then I think there, there is that. It's like, just tell me that I'm right. And it's like, that's been. That's kind of like a problem of, you know, millennia. It's like, I just want to surround myself with people who tell me I'm right. And this AI makes that a lot more available.

[70:26] Matt: Okay, so here's a question. If you asked your agent every morning, you said, hey, give me a compliment to start my day, would that mean anything to you?

[70:40] Michael: No. Well, even with what I'm doing right now with the Morning Spark, is he'll make an observation about our podcast, and then he'll say, and here's the thorn. And so it's like a contrary perspective to what you and I talked about, and that's what I really enjoy is, like, there's a. Like, I'm asking it to challenge me on our thinking, you know, from our podcast. And. And that. And it's funny because it's interesting because, like, I'll. I'll. I'll make observations, and then we'll kind of go back and forth on those observations about that. And to me, I find it helpful. And also like, you know, whenever you and I, at the end of the podcast, we ask your agent to fact check us, that's like my favorite part of the entire. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, post show thing is like, oh, what did I get wrong? You know, so I think it's, it's all about your orientation and. But then how do you teach people how to orient yourself to the world? And I think that's the part that is difficult because, you know, a lot of our conversations that we've had about different things that going on in our lives is sort of like, if you don't see yourself as faulty, as imperfect as needing correction, you know, or that being corrected is a negative thing, then you're going to require from these tools more affirmation than you are like, hey, I could be wrong here. And even if it tells you something like, hey, like, you know, my agent will say like, hey, that was a real, really insightful idea. And they'll even push back on, like, why they thought that. You know, it's like, it's like, I, I don't want a sycophant, you know, Like, I think that's something that. But it's also maybe because we're also older and we, we have had those different experiences of like, like, I don't need somebody telling me that I'm smart or I mean, it does feel good sometimes and sometimes you do need to hear that and it's like. Or congratulated for something you did really well.

[72:51] Matt: Let me figure out how to tie this in. I think for the same reason that asking AI to give me a compliment is not something I would ever do because it would be meaningless to me. It's sort of similar to, have you ever been to a website and you go to the website and it says something like, hey, you look great today. And you understand why they wrote that there, right? Because it's supposed to make you feel good even though, well, they can't see you. You have no idea how I look. I could be in my underwear for all that, you know?

[73:31] Michael: You know, but you look good in underwear. But you, yeah,

[73:36] Matt: you have this inanimate thing saying something. It's not even specifically to you, it's just to whoever comes to the website. Right. So Dante, in Dante's Inferno puts. So he has, I think, three levels of hell. And at the first two levels are things, you know, the, the offenses that got the, the damned into hell are things that you might expect like murder, suicide,

[74:08] Michael: you know, infidelity, sure, whatever. Yeah.

[74:12] Matt: But in the bottom level of hell, which is reserved for the worst offenders, he puts flattery.

[74:20] Michael: Hmm.

[74:23] Matt: And I thought so. I was listening. I was learning this from this podcast I was listening to. And the podcast was on lying. But Dante, I need to do some research into this. He seems to use flattery in lying somehow interchangeably. And I was trying to think about why that might be. What is flattery? Well, that's flattery, right? To have someone say something to me designed to manipulate my feelings in a positive way. Even though the website doesn't have any idea who I am or how I might look, to flatter someone is to lie to them. Now there is such a thing as. I don't know. I have to think more hard about this. But it's like a man might flatter a woman. And you would say, what's he up to? He's probably trying to get laid, right?

[75:19] Michael: There's or part of the mating ritual of like, hey, I'm trying to like get close to you and I want more than just maybe. Yeah, it's like it's intentional.

[75:30] Matt: Yeah, it's the intention is to manipulate and.

[75:34] Michael: Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry.

[75:37] Matt: To the extent that you give into it. So to the extent that I go to the website that says, hey, you look great today, and I think, oh, that makes me feel good. I'm giving in to something which is untrue.

[75:50] Michael: Well, I really want you to make the full point, but at the same time I want to push back because there's. We'll just take the. This. The website says, hey, you look good today. It's like I've. I've actually come across different moments in my life where it's like, it's an arbitrary. Their intention maybe to sell me something or something like that. I have no idea, a billboard or whatever. But something about that speaks to me and it speaks beyond actually what it's maybe intended saying, but it's actually hits me differently, like, hey, you look good today. It's like, oh, wow, thanks. That actually means something to me.

[76:32] Matt: Okay, so this is interesting. Here's the definition of flattery. This is from Google's AI by the way. Flattery is the act of giving, excessive, insincere or hypocritical praise. Usually designed to integrate oneself with someone or to gain a self esteem. Selfish advantage.

[76:54] Michael: Is there another definition too? Because I feel like flattery can also be more dynamic than that.

[76:59] Matt: Key aspects of flattery, purpose used to manipulate, gain favor, stroke an ego or win approval

[77:08] Michael: but even, like winning approval, but in a negative way, I don't think it.

[77:12] Matt: I mean, I think the point is that it's. It's engineered. It's not sincere.

[77:18] Michael: So what am I doing? Like, if I'm like, like flattering my wife. Well, it is an intention and, and like, kind of like, I think there's

[77:32] Matt: a difference between flattery and flattering someone and complimenting them. I mean, if you compliment your wife, you are saying something real about something real. If I flatter someone, yeah, maybe I'll come for you. I say something that isn't real for. Yeah, for purposes that also aren't real. I mean, they're real, but they're not engineered toward the real world. This podcast I was listening to was talking about Dante's Inferno. He also gave a definition for what he thought truth was. And I thought this was really interesting. He said truth is the adherence of one's mind to reality.

[78:12] Michael: Yeah, I think I was still stuck on the semantics of flattery. I don't think I had that tight of a definition. So I think that's where I kind of. But it makes sense if it's that tight. That makes more sense to me, what you're saying.

[78:29] Matt: Oh, here we go. Key differences from compliments motivation. Flattery is selfish. It benefits the speaker. Compliments ourselves sincere and appreciate the recipient. Truthfulness. Flattery is often empty or dishonest. Common phrase imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I said that last week on the podcast. I think that's. That insinuates a different kind of definition for flattery.

[79:00] Michael: Yeah, I think that's. That's where I'm having a problem with. Is like, like, that's. The one that you're proposing is. It's really tight. And

[79:10] Matt: I feel. Not proposing. That's Google's AI. Let's look at Merriam Webster and we should probably wrap this up.

[79:17] Michael: Totally. We can get the semantics later.

[79:25] Matt: Merriam Webster, which, you know, I don't even want to read this. You can't trust them excessively or insincerely. Complimentary. Showing or expressing gratifying respect or admiration, helping to enhance attractiveness. So obviously nuanced. Maybe another great example of, like, if you want to know what a word means, you probably need to not just ask AI, but go read books. Learn the definition of words the way that you learned to speak, which is be around people that use the words in scenarios where the word is used. You don't learn the definition of words when you're a child by being given a Definition, at least not until middle school, annoyingly, when you're given your vocab list for the summer reading that you have to do. But it's like you learn the definition of words by seeing how they're used.

[80:28] Michael: Yeah.

[80:31] Matt: Or one might say, by living in the real world.

[80:34] Michael: Totally. What do you. What. What are your. What are your takeaways from. From what we've talked about. Kind of like covered artist and AI, and.

[80:48] Matt: Yeah, I think I'm just really interested in the question of what is real and what is most real and all the ways that AI is enabling. But also, it seems to be laying bare some very fundamental, archetypal, paradoxical questions that are becoming more and more obvious in some way. And so I will say that I think I have a lot of hope for the future in that sense. I hope we don't become less philosophical and intellectual as a result of this, in the same way that we've become less sexual as a result of the sexualization of society. I hope the opposite happens, that more people become interested in philosophy and intellectual discourse and start asking interesting questions. I mean, I was pretty fascinated to hear Billy Corgan say he felt like leaning into AI was leaning into something demonic. I mean, you and I have already run into that idea in our conversations. And so I hope more people are having that kind of conversation, that it's leading them to places where it isn't about whether it is or isn't as much as it's like we're asking some very serious questions. I think that's a really good thing for society to do, and I hope that we have the sort of the grit and gumption to do it, especially in the face of governmental systems that increasingly don't want us to do that. And, you know, you see, there's a lot of fracturing on the sort of political coalition around Trump. For some of this exact reason. Some people want to ask questions about Iran and Israel, and other people don't want to ask questions about Iran and Israel. And other people are like, why are we talking about Iran and Israel? Kind of more than I can, I guess. But I think there's some really good questions to be asked, and I think it's more and more evident that we have been sold lie after lie after lie for a very long time, whether it's politically or culturally. And I hope, you know, there is a good waking up to more of that and a good asking of serious questions, not an ideological one, you know?

[83:16] Michael: Yeah. So I like that.

[83:22] Matt: Cool. Well, cheers.

[83:24] Michael: Cheers. Thank you, guys.

[83:25] Matt: Thanks for coming out with us on this journey.

[83:27] Michael: Totally. It's like I have to take a drink anyways, whether it's empty or not, because of tears.