Two Deserts

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. All right.

[0:21] Michael: Missed you, man.

[0:22] Matt: Missed you, too. It's been a strange. It's been a strange two weeks without you.

[0:27] Michael: Yeah, you too, man. It's weird.

[0:30] Matt: Really threw off my circadian rhythm or something. Or my male minstrel cycle. I don't know.

[0:37] Michael: That's hilarious. Well, hey. Yeah. Cheers.

[0:42] Matt: To the shores, Unison.

[0:46] Michael: To the shores. To the shores. To the shores.

[0:49] Matt: So, oddly enough, we were both in the desert, just different deserts.

[0:52] Michael: Different deserts, yeah.

[0:53] Matt: You went out to Las Vegas, and I went out to Big Bend last week.

[0:56] Michael: Yeah. Kind of. Very different, Des.

[0:58] Matt: Yeah.

[0:58] Michael: One with lots of lights and noises, and the other was calming relaxation.

[1:03] Matt: There was no gambling, more prostitution where I went, dude. As far as I was aware.

[1:08] Michael: Oh, yeah, That's. Vegas is a. It's a lot. I think the. For two days, I think the. The magic you. You kind of get in that world of. It's kind of a little bit magical. But by the third day, it's like you start to see all the gunk and the cracks and stuff, and it's like.

[1:26] Matt: I've never been so.

[1:27] Michael: A little bit depressing. Well, he could have.

[1:30] Matt: Is it kind of like. I imagine it is a bit like, you know, if you. You go to a movie theater and watch a movie. Not like an Alamo Drafthouse, but like the movie theaters we had growing up.

[1:39] Michael: Yeah.

[1:40] Matt: And you stay till the end to see if there's that little stinger clip at the end. Right. And right when that's over, the staff comes in, the lights come up, and you look around you, and you're just horrified at how disgusting it is.

[1:53] Michael: Totally.

[1:53] Matt: But you could never see it. Cause it was dark the whole time

[1:55] Michael: you were in there.

[1:56] Matt: I imagine Vegas is a little bit like that, so.

[1:58] Michael: Like that. It's exactly like that. It's funny. Yeah. But it's definitely a lot of fun.

[2:04] Matt: Yeah.

[2:05] Michael: But there's, like, lots of cool people. I was at a bitcoin conference.

[2:10] Matt: Yeah. I was asking you about this earlier because this is not the first bitcoin conference you've been to. Was the energy different than past years? Because it feels a little bit like when you and I got into Bitcoin in 21. It was just so much hype. Everybody was so pumped up.

[2:28] Michael: Totally.

[2:29] Matt: Half of Twitter was talking about that constantly. And it just doesn't seem to be. It didn't feel like that anymore.

[2:35] Michael: Yeah, well, definitely. I. I kind of like it because it's. It's the hype. Is not there. And you're just really talking about fundamentals. And that's like, when you get the fundamentals, it's just like, you start looking at your thesises and questioning them and. And. And you're like, okay, is this is what I'm thinking, actually serious. There's no hype around it. Is this is. This is ground, like a reality check?

[3:04] Matt: Yeah.

[3:05] Michael: And I just. It just makes more and more sense to me, you know, even I think, in the down market, it actually teaches me, like, how much this makes sense. And I started taking. Checking my presuppositions.

[3:19] Matt: That's true. I think in all the cycles that we've been through, I tend to have the most discipline and resolve in the down market because there's nothing else to think about except for, like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? You have to really sit down and think it through. And then you rediscover the principles and you're like, no, I believe in this. This is solid.

[3:41] Michael: Yeah. The first principles of it all, it just makes so much more sense. And then also just like, what strategy is doing with stretch and SATA and strive and asst. It's like there's all these things that are happening and nobody really sees it, but these people are actually thriving in this sort of bear market, in this. And. And you're just like, oh, my gosh, like, what would happen if we go into another bull market? Like, that's just wild to me. And so it just kind of makes me excited. I just listened to a guy the other day. He's like, if you've never been through a bull market, you just. It. It's. It's. It's a feeling that you just cannot. I don't think we've. We've actually not experienced the bull market yet, you and I.

[4:27] Matt: What do you mean? It's like, we just recently had a run from 70 to 1:36.26.

[4:36] Michael: But even that, like, what they were. What. Even what the guy was saying is, like, that's. That's. That's not really a bull market. Like, that was like a. It was like a. Like it was going up, and it was, like, really exciting. But he's like. He's like, you know, the 2017 and the 2013, like, there's these different parts. It's like, he's like, I just remember waking up going, okay, it can't go much higher. And then it goes so much. It just keeps going. You're like, what the hell?

[5:01] Matt: You feel like nothing can stop it.

[5:03] Michael: Yeah. And it just. It just blows away. And. And it's like I. The way he was describing is like, oh, wow. Yeah. I don't think I've ever experienced that.

[5:10] Matt: Yeah.

[5:11] Michael: Super excited. But when it goes up a little bit.

[5:14] Matt: Right.

[5:15] Michael: But not when you experience like, a double or a triple or something like that.

[5:20] Matt: Well, here's hoping we get to experience one of those. Cheers.

[5:23] Michael: Cheers to that one.

[5:27] Matt: Yeah. So I was doing something very different. I was in Big Bend with my mom. We went out there to spread some of my father's ashes.

[5:38] Michael: That's exciting.

[5:41] Matt: I won't say I was excited about it.

[5:43] Michael: Okay. Sorry.

[5:45] Matt: I mean, it was a really nice trip, and I wasn't sure what it would mean to me to spread his ashes.

[5:51] Michael: Was it somber or.

[5:57] Matt: Kind of also maybe a little. Kind of felt a little playful.

[6:03] Michael: Why playful?

[6:05] Matt: I don't know. It is. It is kind of weird. It's like maybe I just felt that way about it because it feels a bit like a strange thing. It's like you have. I have these ashes that are the remains of my father's physical body, and I'm just tossing them about, you know, it's like tossing them up into the air, into the wind, and onto the ground and these final atoms of his physicality, from dust to dust. I guess it was a bit of a strange experience. It was a little bit less, maybe emotional than I expected and actually probably more meaningful than I expected.

[6:49] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[6:50] Matt: Because it. You know, because we had him cremated, you know, there was no, you know, people. Other people who have died in my life that I was close to. My grandparents or a good friend die when I was in my 20s, and we had sort of more traditional funerals for them, and they. We put the body in the ground, and there's something about lowering the casket into the ground, which has, like a. A finality to it. Like, that person, their physical body is at the place where it's going to stay now. So this felt a little bit like that. It felt a little bit like closure that I maybe didn't know that I was needing. And it also felt a bit like, okay, here in Big Bend, this place that I love to go with my dad in camp, his body's there. And, you know, it's not like in a specific place, his ashes were scattered. And I know where I scattered them, but they're not, you know, it's. They're going to get blown around on people's shoes. Yeah.

[7:56] Michael: Take it home.

[7:56] Matt: Yeah. Totally dispersed into other people's homes. But something about Just knowing.

[8:02] Michael: It's a great metaphor for your dad, honestly, because he kind of did that. A little bit of him stuck with everybody. Like, a little bit of him that stuck with me. And I didn't get any ashes on me.

[8:11] Matt: I did have. Have some inclination to, like, take some of the ashes and smear them on my face, and I didn't. But just to know that he's there and I can, you know, every time I go back in, in some weird way, I can visit him in a physical way.

[8:30] Michael: Yeah.

[8:31] Matt: That felt. Do you know how there's a. How there's a joy and sadness?

[8:39] Michael: Yeah.

[8:40] Matt: Like, when sadness is real, it's almost like it's so real that it touches joy in a very strange, paradoxical way. Yeah, I felt a little bit of that.

[8:50] Michael: Interesting.

[8:50] Matt: I felt happy. Sad about it, but it was really good. My mom and I set up our campsite, and then we were. After the sun finally went down, and it was bonkers hot. It was 106 degrees out there, dude. So when the sun finally went down and we had some relief from the heat, we made dinner, and I brought my dad's guitar and played a bunch of songs that I enjoyed playing with him. And my mom read a couple of things that made her think about him. I can't remember what this one was, but she read this passage from something that was talking about how the ashes that are scattered are the final atoms of a body that can only now be put back together by God. And I thought that was interesting to ponder. And then we. We scattered his ashes and cried and talked and, you know, stayed up and looked at the stars. It was really beautiful.

[9:50] Michael: Yeah.

[9:50] Matt: Yeah.

[9:51] Michael: How was it for your mom?

[9:54] Matt: I won't. I won't try to say what I don't know. I think it was similar to what it was for me, at least I recognized in her what I felt myself, which was that it was really hard, but maybe somewhat relieving and good. It was good.

[10:15] Michael: Yeah. That's cool.

[10:18] Matt: Yeah. But it's always just so good to get out of the town and into West Texas, into the expansiveness of. It changes the way you think.

[10:32] Michael: Yeah, it really does. Which it's funny, because I actually. I kind of feel that way too, in being in a. Like, whether it's New York or Las Vegas, is being around a lot of people, it's like. It's like I feel a certain solitude. That's very comforting to me.

[10:50] Matt: Like there's an anonymity.

[10:52] Michael: Yeah.

[10:52] Matt: To it. Yeah.

[10:54] Michael: And it's like I can just I just walk and I don't have a. Like, there's no. Like, I'm nobody. And it just. It just kind of. To me, that's a. That's a really good feeling.

[11:08] Matt: I feel like there's a Hemingway quote about this, because if you ever read A Movable Feast. Have you ever read that? This is a memoir of being in Paris in the twenties.

[11:18] Michael: Totally. So good.

[11:20] Matt: Really good, I think he says, because he. He does most of his writing at cafes. And I think he talks about the anonymity, the solitude of being around people and sitting alone, but being surrounded by other people.

[11:35] Michael: Yeah.

[11:36] Matt: This is how he preferred to think, how he preferred to write.

[11:40] Michael: Oh, I totally. Like, that's. That's something I love about coffee shops. And, like, when I was coming out of my. My crazy years, like, just going into a coffee shop and being alone but around people was, like, so comforting to me.

[11:52] Matt: Yeah.

[11:52] Michael: Like, it's like you didn't have to interact with anybody, but I would just sit there and journal. And I always felt so weird. It's like I'm in this other world, and nobody knows this other world that I'm in. And they're all these people around the same world. Yeah. And then I started thinking about, like, oh, wow. Like, each person is in their own world, and you just don't know what they're thinking about, what they're going through. Did their dad die? You know, it's like, whatever it might be, and it's something about that that's kind of stimulating, like, just to be with others, but not with them.

[12:31] Matt: There's this really interesting point that the blanking on the author's name, the guy who wrote the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, he talks about how we can only know ourselves relationally, which is, I think, profoundly true. It's also hard to kind of wrap your head around because, you know, being alone, solitude is also, like, a good and healthy thing sometimes. And when you are alone, you don't really feel any less yourself. But I think that's sort of like a latent trick of the mind. And the longer you spend alone, the less you do know yourself, which is why the worst punishment you give somebody is solitary confinement. You know, you lock them up, but they lose their sense of self. And there's something about being in a crowd, whether it's at a concert or in a big city, or even just sitting in a coffee shop working, journaling, working on your computer, reading a book, whatever it may be, where you have a sense of being known, being witnessed which changes the way that you think about the things that you're doing. I really enjoy, on a nice summer, sunny afternoon, or spring sunny afternoon, for that matter. Or winter. I don't know why I pegged a season to it. On an afternoon. I really enjoy taking a book to my local pub and having a beer and reading. And I've had people come up to me before and say, I don't know how you can read with all of this going on around. And it's something like. I think I kind of read better because it's something that. It's like it holds me, it gives me something to be held against. It's akin to the phenomena where if you're trying to solve a problem at work, you're working on something, you're trying to solve a problem, and you can't solve it, you can't figure it out. And then you put the problem down, you go away. Let's say you go for a walk and you're on the walk, you're not even working on the problem, and all of a sudden the solution just comes into your brain. There's something about having just the right amount of distraction that actually allows your brain to function optimally. And I think there's something about being in a crowd that does that. That said, my mom and I, you know, we went out to Big Bend. We camped at one of the four by four accessible, only primitive campsites. So you're not around anybody. And gosh, this. The quiet was so good.

[15:16] Michael: Yeah.

[15:17] Matt: So nice.

[15:18] Michael: Yeah, man, now you're making me kind of jealous.

[15:22] Matt: Yeah, we'll have to go back out there.

[15:24] Michael: Yeah, we do need to go there. Yeah. Just to hear. Yeah, it's like when everything's silenced, like you start to. At first, I think in silence, there's this like, reaction that you get. They actually have like a. There's like so much noise in yourself that starts to like surface. And then after a little bit of time, it starts to quiet down. You know, I remember one time I went outside of Seattle just by myself and sit at this place on this pond. And you know, the first I told myself I was going to just stay in bed. You know, I don't ever sleep in. So I stayed in bed just as long as I could. And then I wasn't going to read anything or journal or anything for the first day. And it just like there was just so much noise in my head. And then by the afternoon and evening, it's like starts to settle down and it was just sort of like, oh, wow. It's like I just don't realize, like, how much noise is in my head. I just kind of like, push through and don't think about and. And just to kind of have. And then by the second and third day, I was just sort of like it had all worked its way out, you know, which is like such a. Such a cool feeling to have.

[16:45] Matt: It seems to me that silence is kind of a relative concept. Like, as you were talking just then, I was thinking about. I wrote this piece on my substack a long time ago, but I have this memory of being born, which is a very strange thing to say, but I have it, and I'm not exactly sure what to do with it. So I wrote this piece, and one of the things that I wrote is, like, the memory is, in a sense, pre conscious, and it's also pre language. And so it's more of a color and shape and feel than it is something like a dream that you wake up and then you have words for it, you know, and it. And it's not, like, rooted imagistically to anything in this life, you know, it's like my second memory, which is my first memory in the world, involves a red toy motorcycle. You know, it's like, I have words for that that you will understand because you know what a red toy motorcycle is. But this. This other memory, it kind of defies description because how do I describe to you something that you can't experience, you

[18:00] Michael: know, or even when you're experiencing, you don't really know what you're experiencing.

[18:04] Matt: Right.

[18:04] Michael: It's like. Or the cognitive ability to.

[18:07] Matt: Well, and I've struggled with that because I was pretty young when I first decided that this memory was a memory of being born. And I really questioned it. I was like, well, how do I know? Because you can't check. You know, it's like there's no reference point to which you know, it's a real. It's almost like Ryan Gosling in Blade Runner when he's trying to figure out if his memories are his own memories, which is a really kind of haunting thought.

[18:35] Michael: Yeah.

[18:36] Matt: And that movie ends in such a haunting way. Have you seen that one?

[18:38] Michael: What is it called?

[18:39] Matt: Blade Runner.

[18:40] Michael: I haven't seen the most recent one.

[18:41] Matt: No. It's excellent.

[18:43] Michael: Yeah, I did see his most recent show. That was really good.

[18:47] Matt: But anyway, one of the. Oh, the project Hail Mary. Yeah, I haven't seen that yet. But one of the things that I wrote about this memory is that it involved a sort of great crescendo of noise and the strengthening of some bright light until all of the noise and the light completely overwhelmed me. And then that, at its peak, is what I now call silence.

[19:16] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[19:19] Matt: So silence is kind of like what I call the baseline of the noise of living in some kind of strange way, dude.

[19:27] Michael: Actually, like in Adagio for Strings by Barber, it kind of does that. It almost takes you through that experience. Like, it takes you to this height and keeps going. It keeps going. You kind of just lose yourself. Like, you think it's just going to go into everything or nothing, and then it just drops. You don't realize you were there until it drops all the way down and you're like, oh, like, I thought it was like, ascending into the heavens or where. Whatever, you know, And. And then until you, like, it drops down, you don't realize, like, well, where was I just then?

[20:04] Matt: It's like you perceive everything relative to something else.

[20:09] Michael: Our contrast, too. Yeah.

[20:11] Matt: In contrast, too. Yeah.

[20:14] Michael: Yeah. That's. I mean, even like you were talking about. I don't know if you're just saying this on before we started, but joy and sadness, you know, you were serious saying something about that without earlier or just.

[20:25] Matt: It was just now recording?

[20:26] Michael: Yeah. I don't know what.

[20:28] Matt: Our time in the last 20 minutes.

[20:30] Michael: Okay, good. Well, yeah, it's like, well, how can both those things exist at the same time? Joy and.

[20:35] Matt: Because they seem like opposites. Yeah.

[20:37] Michael: Yeah. If you're sad, I was like, how can you be joyful?

[20:39] Matt: Yeah.

[20:40] Michael: It's like. But there's something about, like, when almost two things that are opposite are contrasting each other come together in one moment, that's like.

[20:50] Matt: I heard this great poem from C.S. lewis recently, and it opens. Love's as warm as tears. Love is tears. I don't have the whole thing. I'm going to look it up because. But it's something of that paradox. Love's as warm as tears. Love is tears. Pressure within the brain, tension in the throat. Deluge. Weeks of rain, haystacks afloat. Featureless seas between hedges where once was green. And then it goes on. But there's something of that great paradox in that, that, you know, what does love do? Love weeps. Love does other things as well, you know, but it's like Jesus wept. And we talked about this. I think we talked about this recently.

[21:52] Michael: Where is it?

[21:53] Matt: Hebrews says he was a man of many sorrows, acquainted with grief. And, you know, Jesus is love. That's what love does. There's something of a paradox in that. And I think we sense that, like, when you. When you grieve and you grieve well or truly, there is something that you're touching in that, which is edifying. There's something true in grief. Maybe that's a better way to say it. And when you touch something true, that's a good thing.

[22:31] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to grasp this because, like. Because as you're saying that, just my kids popped into my head. It's like there's certain parts that you can grieve. Like, you wish you want your kids to experience something, and then at the same time, you also see them discovering things. And. And part of it, as a parent, is like, the patience of a life. You know, like, you have to be patient with your kids because they have to live their life. It's like it's not something that you can. You can force upon them.

[23:16] Matt: You can't impart it to them.

[23:17] Michael: No. You know, it's like there are certain aspects that you can impart kind of, you know, but it's like you can't impart your full experience onto them. It took you decades to gain that. And it's like you. And you're wanting your kids to have that where they are, and it's like. And so there's a certain grieving that you have of like, oh, you've got to go through this in order to gain this.

[23:42] Matt: Right.

[23:43] Michael: And then. But also, there's a joy in seeing them grow and mature and, like, get those things. And so it just. It's the thing that's the hard thing. I mean, the. Was it the Mary and Jesus that Michelangelo, Dude. La petite or something like that.

[24:01] Matt: The Pieta.

[24:02] Michael: Pieta. Yeah. You know, it's like where you see this mother who had to give her child to the world, and then when the world had its way with him, was holding him, and it's like after

[24:16] Matt: the world broke him, after world broke

[24:18] Michael: him, you know, and it's just like, that's like, can't. It's like that's the ultimate sacrifice for a mother specifically, but for parents, it's like you have to give your kids up to the world.

[24:28] Matt: Yeah.

[24:29] Michael: And they will be broken.

[24:30] Matt: Yeah.

[24:31] Michael: That's just. There's no way around it. And. And if you. If you don't know that, then you're delusional. It's like you can't protect your kids from the world. And I think that's a really hard thing for a parent. You can prepare. I mean, I don't. I mean, yeah, there's lots of things you can do to help along the way. But at some point, you really do have to give your kids over.

[24:54] Matt: Well, just. It seems to me we wrestle with this in. In so many obvious ways. It's like Lewis also said, to love it all is to be vulnerable. To love it all is to be breakable. And you think about the imagery, like, what comes to mind is Pinocchio. It's like Pinocchio wants to become a real boy. And what happens when he becomes a real boy? It's like chaos.

[25:17] Michael: Yeah.

[25:17] Matt: You know, the Tin man wants to have a heart. He wants to be real.

[25:25] Michael: Yeah.

[25:25] Matt: There's this great song by Miranda Lambert called Tin man, where she says, if you ever felt one breaking, you wouldn't want a heart. And then she says later, you can have mine. It's all broken now, where it's like, there's this great paradox to being alive, to being a conscious human being, which is that you have to be broken. And that's what it is to be a human being. And there is so much goodness in that. Like, isn't there something of a. Almost celebratory in the idea of someone experiencing heartbreak for the first time? It's almost like initiation into humanity. It's like, you know something now of what it means to be alive. And you're gonna learn something from that. And another thing that comes into my mind is I was in gymnastics for a long time when I was younger, and in men's high bar, you put on these grips on your hands and you go swing on this bar, and you're. You develop these, like, really gnarly calluses on your hands. And then every once in a while, one turns into a big blister, and eventually it's going to tear off. And so my coach would say, go swing, giants. Until it tears off and it hurt really bad. But there was also kind of this sense of, like, what we're doing is worth doing, and so it's worth going through this so we can get back to doing it. And it's going to happen one way or another. So go get it done.

[27:10] Michael: Totally.

[27:11] Matt: You know, so it's like, you would think that something like pain is bad, and so it should be avoided. And I think life teaches. Teaches us the opposite. It's like when pain is voluntarily accepted, something really good comes of that.

[27:33] Michael: Yeah, there's. There's so many. Like, I think, like, there's this aspect of me that I really want to be unbreakable. And it's funny because, like, what always teaches me this Is like, oh, if you want to become unbreakable, then you have to be broken a lot.

[27:57] Matt: What did Hemingway say? The world breaks. Everyone in some. In those broken places become stronger.

[28:09] Michael: Yeah. And it's like, I forget that lesson every single time. Like, I'm, you know, protecting myself from being broken. Then I'm like. And as the breaking starts to happen, I'm like, oh, this is good. I need to let this happen. I don't know when that. When that really. I mean, I just can think of, like, over the many, many years of like, you know, of the resisting. And I think there's a part, too. It's like. It's like, okay, hey, what can I do to. You know, there's problem solving. I think there's a lot of things, like, you don't need to be broken un. Necessarily unnecessarily. So it's like, you do learn.

[28:47] Matt: Like, you don't want to seek the breaking for the breaking sake. That's just masochism.

[28:52] Michael: But I know, like, there's these points where I'm like, oh, okay, this is where I'm. I'm going to get broken. And this is good. And it's like. And you kind of release into it, and then you come out on the other side. You're like, those are like the things you cherish the most, you know? Yeah, but that's. That's the thing too, is like, as an adult, and if you've gone through those things, it's like. And then. Then knowing that to willingly give your children to that, like, that's. That's really difficult to do.

[29:29] Matt: It's difficult to do, but it's like, don't you want to do it? I was gonna say to them, not to them, but for them to break. You allow that totally. Because you also know that once allowed, they will have that revelation that in this, in a sense, like, become enlightened, become wiser, become more experienced, become more antifragile, more resilient and those things. And it's like we were talking about wisdom the other week. It's like, you can't really earn wisdom, but you have to earn wisdom.

[30:06] Michael: Yeah,

[30:08] Matt: you can't. Can't earn. The words are failing me. You. You have to get experience by failing.

[30:26] Michael: Well, it's also interesting, too, because, I mean, it's not just with my kids. It's like, you know, whether it be baristas or managers or people have come and worked for me, and I think there's a little bit of insecurity in the early years Because I was also, I was also young and hadn't had as much experience as I do now as sort of like. Like people would come to me with problems and I'd want to solve them. And then I'm like, oh, actually they need to go through this themselves. Or if they don't learn the lesson that actually makes them better at what they do.

[30:55] Matt: Right?

[30:55] Michael: And there's, I mean, this is not. There's. Because you can err on neglect too. That's a whole nother part. But like, but that's the. I think that's been something over the years is like allowing that experience to happen. You know, it's like. Cause I mean, I mean, as a young barista coming in, it's like you, you might have these ideals of like, how everything should run. It's like, yes, that's great. But then you start hitting the wall of like, there's all these pushbacks, whether it's other baristas or customers or the way things work or systems or whatever it might be, that need to, that need to change actually do need to change. And you want it to change right now. To change that takes time and, you know, effort and, you know, it's like. And that's. And it's not satisfying because it's not immediate. And then you start to learn like, okay, well, if I keep working at this and I change those around me and then keep making suggestions on how to make the systems better, it's like you're starting. It's like it's a long haul work of how to actually create something and change something. It's like, it's not everybody should have a million dollars. It's like, okay, that's great,

[32:03] Matt: but what is it? You realize that if everyone had a million dollars, no one would have a million dollars.

[32:10] Michael: And that's. Those are hard concepts to grasp, you know.

[32:13] Matt: Well, yeah, it doesn't even make sense the way I just said it, but you understand what I'm saying. It's like if everyone has the same. It's. There's no difference then. There's no difference. Yeah, like a million dollars is only interesting because not many people have a million dollars. And that enables you to do a lot of things that you couldn't do otherwise.

[32:30] Michael: Or even how you think about today is like a million dollars is not a million dollars of what it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

[32:35] Matt: Totally.

[32:36] Michael: It's like it doesn't have the same value.

[32:38] Matt: Right.

[32:39] Michael: And so there's something like, you know, someone who's spent a lifetime working at something. Like, there's a value there that somebody who's just started is like, I want that. It's like, well, you have to put in the decades or years of. Of work in order to get that. It's like, are you willing to do that? Like, that's not something you just get. Like, even if I gave it to you, Like. Like. Like the Michael of 2006. Like, here, Michael, here's five coffee shops in a roasting facility. And, you know, it's like, maybe do this.

[33:12] Matt: One of our problems as humans is like, we imagine things that we want are things to be had that you could just acquire, and life isn't that way. Life isn't to be had, it's to be lived. You know, it's kind of like. I feel like I've been saying this a lot recently, but it's like, truth is not a fact. Truth is a person. You don't interact with it by obtaining it. You interact with it by relating to it. It's outside of you. It isn't something which you can have. So it's like, yeah. You say to any young person, would you like a million dollars? It's like a. You would think. Only a fool says no, but I think actually the fool says yes. Especially when you're young. I mean, the stories. Stories of people who get things that they're not ready for don't turn out very well.

[34:06] Michael: Yeah, well, it's like. It's a whole startup culture, too, is like, you have all this money, you just burn it, and then you're down to your, like, a little bit, and then that's when you start getting resourceful and.

[34:17] Matt: Right.

[34:18] Michael: And things are happening. It's like, it's.

[34:20] Matt: It's when. When you. You. You're counting your Runway in days, like, you got to make something happen.

[34:29] Michael: Yeah.

[34:29] Matt: That's so interesting.

[34:30] Michael: You.

[34:30] Matt: It's like we. We might think that we're motivated by getting things or getting to some place, but when it comes down to it, most of our motivation that actually really changes things comes from, like, what is it like, desperately trying not to die.

[34:54] Michael: Yeah. Well, it's like with every situation, like, when you're in that, it's like, that's when you're like, the. The world becomes more vibrant. You know, if you're in a dangerous situation, like, all of a sudden you see things you don't. You wouldn't normally see.

[35:08] Matt: You know, it's like your senses are heightened.

[35:11] Michael: Yeah. I mean, even, like, in love, it's like, you know, all Of a sudden, like, you're experiencing something that's way more than you've ever experienced before.

[35:19] Matt: Totally. I remember having this experience at a point earlier in my life where I was like, I finally understand why people write songs. That's funny, because it's like, you have this. It's like something's overwhelming coming out of you. I don't know what this is. It's just, like, crazy. So it's like, I gotta pick something up. I gotta sing about this.

[35:48] Michael: That's so funny. Like, for me, it's an idea. Like, I just can't put it down. It's like. It's like. It just drives me, like, right now, like, the. Some of the things I'm working on, and it just. It's like, consuming because it's like. And it's funny because it's like, am I wasting my time? Yeah, maybe. But it's like, you know, whether it was with this coffee shop idea or, you know, roasting or multiple, many, many other ideas, it's like a lot of the ideas that I've had led to nothing, but. But because I. I pursued them, it actually sharpened other areas of my life, you know, experiencing failure. But it wasn't like it was like, actually that failure in that one thing escalated other areas of my life just because it enriched it, I guess. Probably even, like, failing at being a husband or a father. It's like, it actually enriches my relationships whenever I see it and acknowledge it. And it's like, oh, wow, I'm not who I think I am.

[37:00] Matt: Somebody said something about wasting time.

[37:04] Michael: Mm.

[37:07] Matt: It's like, find your favorite way to waste time and do that. Because anytime you ask that question, am I wasting time? The answer is probably yes. So find your favorite way to waste it and live that way.

[37:23] Michael: Well, I have kind of like. And again, I don't always exercise this in the bright way. It's like sometimes I get into spots where I'm trying to be very efficient and effective and use my time wisely. And I'll schedule out my time for hours. For this hour, I'll do this.

[37:38] Matt: I feel like it's about once a

[37:39] Michael: year you do that.

[37:40] Matt: You're like, I'm doing this regimen now.

[37:42] Michael: And funny thing is, for about three months. It's great. It's amazing. But then I find myself wasting time because I've committed myself to something, and then I'm like, okay, well. And then I've experienced that.

[37:58] Matt: That's a really great point.

[38:00] Michael: The cool thing is, it's like, there's this point where I hit that. I'm just like, okay, like, what could I do? What would I do that would I do what I could do?

[38:10] Matt: What could you do that you would do?

[38:12] Michael: Yeah, that comes in my head and I'm like, well, that doesn't apply to any of this efficiency and effectiveness. But then I just do that anyways. And it's funny because then it frees me up and I'm like, actually super productive in some area that I hadn't thought about. Or I come back to the area that I was trying to push on and it's like, it's like sometimes we just need to like, push on those things that are wasting time or.

[38:36] Matt: Yeah. I don't know if I brought this up last week, but I listened to this long interview with Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins, and he was talking about AI and how he won't touch it, doesn't want to have anything to do with it. And the interview was talking to him about Suno. You know what SUNO is? It's a AI service that will write a song for you.

[38:59] Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[39:00] Matt: And Billy Corgan's point I thought was really eloquent. He was like, no, because the guy was like, well, what if you use Suno to kind of like flesh out an idea? It's like, I have an idea, but I don't really have the time to really flesh it out. Suno can flesh it out for you. And then that could be a starting point. And Billy Corgan's response was something like, no, I think it's really important for writers to struggle with time. And it's really important for writers to get to the point where they feel like they have nothing left to say to go through the heartbreak of writers, writer's block, to go through life. You know, if you're going to have something to say, you actually have to live the life. And so he's like, basically like, you know, an argument against efficiency, tools, essentially. You know, if you're going to be creative, it's like you probably just need to, like, sit down and face the failure of it. And then eventually you'll have something to say and it won't be a failure anymore.

[39:58] Michael: See, I kind of, I, I, I, I, I completely agree with him, actually. But I, I'll, I'll take him to the mat on one area, which is like, it's basically because it's, it's a little bit naive because my experience with AI is like, there's this sort of euphoria phase where it's like, oh, my gosh, it can do anything. And then you start hitting the. The upper bounds of it, and then you actually start to. You start to have that same challenge that you would have if you didn't. If you didn't use AI and as I explained this to my son last night, because he was trying to set up a server for this game he was going to play. And I was like, well, hey, why don't you just ask AI how to do it? And he was like, no, it hallucinates. Well, it's an orchestra and you have to tell the different pieces when to play and how to play. But it's like you're orchestrating it and. And it's like. It's like, yes, it's not going to get it right. That's the whole point is like, you're actually building something and it's like. And you have something that. That's helping you build, and it's not just going to spit out the answer like, oh, here's how you play this song. You know, it's like. It's like something about what it's going to say is going to not sit right with you and you're going to push back, and then it might push back on you, and then, you know, so it's like it's a whole different type of relationship that actually, I think is. The naive part is that AI will just write the song for you. It's like, yeah, and it's going to sound like 10,000 other songs, but it actually can help you work through some ideas that maybe you couldn't have worked out otherwise, you know, But I'm not proposing, like, you use AI for everything, but. But just my experiences is like, it's. It's sort of like. It's not that it's. It's not the answer, but it definitely helps in the iteration of. Of getting to some place.

[42:02] Matt: Yeah, I could see that. Here's a. Here's a. Another way to say what I think Billy Corgan was saying. I just saw this the other day. I can't remember who said it. Somebody asked this guy whether or not he thought he was a writer, wrote books. He's like, whether or not he thought that people should use AI to help write books. And his response I thought was great. He said, that would be like me paying someone else to have sex for me. And I was like, well, that really got to the point. I was like, oh, right. No, writing is enjoyable and worth doing. I like writing. Why would I pay someone Else to do it for me. Why would I pay someone else to have sex? I like having sex. It's worth doing. And I thought, that's great. And I think that's the point Billy Corgan was making, is like, no, struggling with the writing is a part of the writing, and it's worth doing. And to imagine that the. I mean, maybe the difference between building something or solving some problem and writing, whether it's a book or a song, is that the writing of a book or the song is. Is. It's a different kind of creative act, I think. And part of that creative act is the. Is the struggle, is the wrestling. It's sword. Play with yourself. It's, you know, it's why the archetype of the artist is always a distressed person. It's Van Gogh cutting off his ear.

[43:49] Michael: See, I'd push back on that because it's like, I think you can take that into, I think, in using AI Like a sex doll. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like. It's like. It's like, why would I have AI have sex for me? It's like, I just do myself. It's like, well, why are you having sex with a sex doll? Like, that's not really sex. You know, it's like.

[44:09] Matt: I don't think that's what he was saying.

[44:10] Michael: I know he's. He's not saying that, but I mean, I think that's the part, too, is like. It's like, hey, I'm trying to get somewhere. And so, like, I'm using different tools in order for me to get to this place. It's like, I can just have it. Write a song for me. It's like, yeah, I can go have sex with a sex doll. You know, but it's like. But is that really fulfilling? Is that really where you're going? And I think that's the part is like. It's like having a vision, having an idea of a direction, and then you're moving into, like, what's the fullest experience? What's the fullest experience of this? It's like, well, technically, the fullest experience of that is in a marriage, in a loving marriage that you're moving through time with, you know, and that you're 80 years old and you're still having sex with this person. Yeah, you know, it's like, there's something fulfilling in that. That's, like, way below, way above even having. Just having sex, you know,

[45:10] Matt: it's totally random.

[45:11] Michael: We're bringing sex dolls up again, right?

[45:14] Matt: No, I was like, randomly, I was at some ball bar with one of our mutual friends in New Orleans, I think, and we've like this. It's our friend who is everyone's friend.

[45:27] Michael: Okay.

[45:29] Matt: And when you're with him.

[45:30] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[45:30] Matt: Everyone becomes your friend.

[45:32] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[45:33] Matt: It's like, if we go out, I get like 10 new Instagram friends. So we started talking to this couple that was sitting next to us at the bar. And anyway, it turns out this woman works at a nursing home. And I guess because we're at a bar, we're drinking, she's telling stories. And one of the stories she said is, like, 90% of the guys in the nursing home have a stent in their penis, so it's always erect. And I was like, what to your point about having sex at 80? It's like people don't stop liking having sex totally. To the point that they'll go through medical intervention to keep it going if they have to. Which I guess is obvious anyway.

[46:15] Michael: That's funny. I did not know that.

[46:16] Matt: I don't know if that's true. I thought about that since then. I'm like, that can't be true. Maybe it is.

[46:21] Michael: Matt said. He's like, oh, I get it now.

[46:23] Matt: I get it now.

[46:30] Michael: I think that's the part too, is like. It's like, what is that? What are you really reaching for, you know?

[46:34] Matt: Yeah, I was just thinking that, like, if your vision is fully developed, then you might have a conversation with yourself, you know, like using sex as the example and say, is it. How did you put it earlier? How can that be most fully fulfilled? How can my desire be most fully fulfilled? And I think if you're serious about that, you will end up in something like the definition of a long term monogamous relationship. Because that's how sex can be most fully fulfilled. You know, the naive version is sex can be most, most fully fulfilled by sexual freedom. You know, it's like by the enlightenment of the 60s, you know, free love, baby. Well, it's pretty obvious that that failed. I think sex is not most fully fulfilled when it's free. It's most fully fulfilled in commitment. And so maybe it's worth asking a question. It's like, how can my, you know, what I'm doing be most fully fulfilled? And if you're building something, maybe the answer to that is AI is really, really, really helpful. But then there's other versions of that too. It's like, I find every once in a while, you know, how the. It's like the algorithms that are all around us sometimes become surprising reflections of our own interests. You start seeing something a bunch of times. I recently started getting served these Instagram reels of, I guess, ancient Eastern Chinese pottery making.

[48:17] Michael: I get those too.

[48:17] Matt: Do you get those?

[48:18] Michael: They're awesome.

[48:19] Matt: I love them.

[48:20] Michael: They're like eight minutes long. And I'm just like, long.

[48:22] Matt: And I just sit, I watch the whole thing and it's like, this is part one. I was like, where the fuck is part two? I gotta find.

[48:27] Michael: But I'm watching these guys or paper making or something like that.

[48:30] Matt: But it's like these guys going through days long processes to make something. And I'm just thinking, I want that. There's something about. So what is that fulfilling in me that I'm saying, no, I don't want expediency. I actually want to understand how things are done and to actually experience doing them. To spend, you know, a week or months or years learning a skill. And then, you know, it's like, why do. Why do guys who get into carpentry, like, ultimately seem to end up in like a fetishized sort of hand tools environment? It's like, I want to do this with my hands, not with the power saw. It's like, because we want to experience the real. And I think there's something to that. And maybe this is what I'm saying about songwriting is we could get back into this conversation about, well, what is a song even? When is a song a song? That's a really interesting question. But I think, at least for me, part of writing, whether it's writing a song or journaling or writing a piece of fiction or an essay on something. I started telling you earlier tonight about this idea that I had when I was out in Big Bend. And I want to try to write an essay about it. And we kind of discussed talking about it tonight on the podcast. So I opened up my journal where I just wrote down my initial thoughts about this idea. And the very last thing that I wrote is, this is going to be very difficult to write. And there's something about me that, that's motivating. And you could say, well, why don't you take everything that you know and put it into chat GPT and you can remove that difficulty. And there's something in me that says, well, that would spoil it.

[50:31] Michael: Oh, interesting. I actually, I'd go a different direction.

[50:34] Matt: I actually sort of feel like I need to sit down and really collect my thoughts, my thoughts, my incomplete, imperfect thoughts and figure out what those are. Because I think Peterson makes this point a lot, where he says, there's no difference between writing and thinking. When you're writing, you're figuring out what you think. And so, for me, part of the process of writing is like, I want to figure out what I think. I don't necessarily want to figure out a means to an end. I want to figure out who I am. And AI can't do that for me, because if it does it for me, even if it comes up with the right answer, even if it somehow miraculously comes up with the exact version of the essay that I would have written, that I struggled months on. Well, it stole the months from me. It stole the struggle from me. It stole the ripping off of the callus on the high bar. It stole the heartbreak. It stole all of the things that make life. Life.

[51:41] Michael: Well, I would just say you're stopping too soon, because I don't see AI like that. It's like. It's like I'm trying to go out onto this frontier. Anything that will push me out onto the frontier further, I want to go there. And so I want to find where the end of AI is. And then what's beyond that, you know, it's like, what's on the other side of that? And that's. That's. The part that excites me about AI is sort of like, oh, my gosh, I feel like this can push me further out. So it's like. It's like I want to be in that. I want to go to that uncomfortable, take all my notes, put it all together, and then say, okay, tell me what I've been thinking. And then I struggle with that, with what that reflects back to me. And so then that struggle actually pushes me further out onto the frontier. And then I take that and I say, okay, hey, tell me, where do you think I'm at? And then I'll be like, okay, I want to go further out on the frontier. So to me, it's like. It's like a sort of. Like, it helps better synthesize things in order for me to go further, you know? And so I.

[52:50] Matt: That's.

[52:51] Michael: That's. That's the part of the tool that really excites me is because it's like, I don't know how far out I can go and you can sit with. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to go there, but I think it's more about. It's not about the tool. It's about the intention. It's like. It's like if you're Just wanting to like produce pop songs. It's like, okay, you know, here's some things you can do to produce pop songs or tick tock, you know, get famous or whatever. It's like, it's like. But your intention is just to get famous, you know, or like, you know, write mystery novels or what is the romance novels or something like that. There's a formula to it and it's like you can make a lot of money doing that. It's like, but really what are you wanting? It's like. And so I think we, I think people achieve that same sort of like shallowness without A.I. you know, I think A.I. a.I. Just exposes that and then it's like. But those people who are wanting to push further and further out, I think AI is, is a very powerful tool to do that.

[53:48] Matt: Put some more legs on that.

[53:51] Michael: Okay.

[53:51] Matt: Some more flesh on that. Pushing further out.

[53:53] Michael: Like more than two, like a spider.

[53:57] Matt: Let's make it at least a three legged stool.

[53:59] Michael: There you go.

[54:02] Matt: Yeah. Tell me more about what you mean by pushing further out into the frontier.

[54:08] Michael: Well, I don't know which, which part to like, like creatively, like I want to see like, like it was what you and I do right now. It's like, it's like I present my ideas to you and they're challenged, you know, and you, you wrap them up and you, you put them back to me and I'm like. And then I have to contend with that and then I have to like come back with something more to a more fuller thought. And it's like. So I just feel like AI is another catalyst or tool for that kind of way of thinking is sort of like, okay, I'm going to put all my thoughts together and I'm going to put it out and then I'm going to have AI reflect it back to me. Is that what I'm really trying to say? Well, if it's on the first time, it's probably very shallow. You know, it's like, it's like you actually need to struggle with what has been like sort of pushed back to you and what it's produced. And I think if you don't struggle with that and then push back and then have it come back, it's like you need that sort of push and pull and I think some really beautiful things. And it's like, well, AI created it did was part of the creative process. But it's not necessarily AI because it's like the prompts that you're putting in and the pushback that you have and the growth that you're going through as you're using the tool, it will produce unique and different expressions or even art. You know, it's like. And I don't think a lot of people get that. They kind of push a bit against AI saying, like, oh, it's just AI slop. It's like, no, there's a lot of AI slop. There's also a lot of music slop. There's also a lot of art slop. There's like, you know, there's a lot of slop everywhere, not just in AI. And so it's not about the tool, it's about the person.

[55:58] Matt: You know, it's not the plane, it's the pilot.

[56:02] Michael: Totally. So I think if people could just see AI from a different perspective as far as, like, it's like, yeah, if you're just using it to just put out crap instead of, like, helping you move into something, some uncharted territory, you know, I mean, just think about some of the things you could do with it. Like. Like space travel, you know, like. Like, can we get there with a abacus? You know, it's like, it's like we need.

[56:32] Matt: Is that a foundation reference?

[56:33] Michael: No, it's not, but. Oh, abacus, the math tool that's going to take a lot of time and you probably in your lifetime will not get the space with an abacus. So it's like you use this tool to push you out further into the frontier.

[56:47] Matt: That being said, the computer on the Apollo missions, the code for that computer was written by hand on pieces of paper, like hundreds of feet long pieces of paper stretched down a hallway. And then they would load that into the computer and run it. And if there was a problem, they had to roll it all back out and fix the problem. I mean, that's basically using an abacus to get to space.

[57:19] Michael: But I think that's. But again, you're just. That's just like a stage, you know, it's like the things we think of right now as AI versus like 100 years from now or 10 years from now, probably.

[57:30] Matt: Right.

[57:30] Michael: It'll be as an abacus is to this computer paper. Because it's like, again, that was kind of the AI of the time almost. It's like there was an intelligence in this piece of paper that's communicating something. And it's like, this is going to get more and more intelligent, but it's like you're not going to trust that to go to, you know, the next galaxy over or something like that, you know? It's like, even for the moon and. And those types of stuff was still like. I mean, that. That was a real cowboy, like, going west, going out.

[58:03] Matt: It's pretty astounding that of how many people have left Earth's orbit? I think it's like 14 people or maybe 20 people now with Artemis. Not one of them. I didn't even know that not one of them. One of them has died. Yeah, they've all come home. That's pretty astounding.

[58:21] Michael: That's pretty astounding.

[58:22] Matt: And most of them went in the freaking 70s.

[58:28] Michael: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's. It's just. I think it's just really like, if we don't see these things as tools rather than in ends of themselves, you know, I think that's. It's like, no, the AI is going to make me smarter. It's like, for what? Why? You know.

[58:47] Matt: Well, also. No, it's not going to make you smarter. Totally the same way that a calculator also doesn't make you smarter. It's like you're as smart as the work you put in. I mean, you can solve problems faster, you can get access to information faster. But I mean, even it's not even an AI conversation. Maybe that's part of the point you're trying to make. I don't know.

[59:06] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[59:07] Matt: The conversation isn't even about AI.

[59:09] Michael: It's Google, Wikipedia.

[59:10] Matt: Totally. It's like, before AI was even a thing, I was sort of dimly aware that there was some real issue with the fact that we can look anything up at any moment. It's like we've lost something by not sitting with the unknown, by not sitting with the question. There's some value to that. There's more value to a question than simply the answer. Sitting with the question has its own value.

[59:40] Michael: I think you bring it up perfectly. Is like, it's your orientation. Like, if it's just about, like the answer, like, oh, well, I can go look that up. It's like, well, there's no real value in that. It's like. It's like, where are you going with that? Like, what are you creating? What's. What's. Where is that. Where is that leading you to? It's not just about knowing, like all the main movie stars of an IMBD of being like, oh, who's in that show? Oh, look, this person. This person, this person. It's like, okay, great, that was a fact. I wanted to know and I didn't know that. Now I know it and I will forget it.

[60:14] Matt: Promptly.

[60:15] Michael: Yeah, but it's like, where. Like, what is it that you're. What's driving you? It's like, where. What are you creating?

[60:20] Matt: And it's like, did you listen to Eric Weinstein on trigonometry recently?

[60:28] Michael: I don't think so. I think I have it saved. I totally forgot about it.

[60:31] Matt: He was making this very similar point where he's basically saying, we have access to tons of information that none of us ever leverage.

[60:40] Michael: Yeah.

[60:41] Matt: He goes, for example, do you know the formula for black powder? And Constantin and the other guy, what's his name?

[60:49] Michael: I forget.

[60:51] Matt: What is it? Dang it. I forget, too. They're both like, no, I don't know that. And he goes. And he rattles it off. And I just listened to this yesterday and I've already forgotten it. He rattles off the formula and he goes, there, I've just said it now. Everyone who's listening to this knows it. Everyone is going to forget it. And I'm an example of this. It's like, it's sulfur, charcoal, salt, something like this. He's like, we have access to all this information that we don't leverage all the time. The problem is not the information. The problem is we don't know what to do with it.

[61:33] Michael: Totally.

[61:36] Matt: And so maybe if your orientation is, I want to figure out what to do with this, whether that's. Hmm. I remember I sent my. I sent my dad this Instagram reel, you know, a number of years ago before he died of this knot tying channel, because I thought it was really interesting. And he wrote back and he goes, I often wish I had a place in my brain where I could put stuff like this. And I was thinking about that when we were out camping, because the campsite we were on was so rocky I couldn't get a stake into the ground. And so I was improvising. I was getting large rocks and tying stuff to them to try and tie this thing down. And I was like, I. I don't remember. I don't know how to tie this knot. I know there's a way to tie a knot that I can winch this thing and keep it tight, but I don't know it.

[62:36] Michael: Totally. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[62:38] Matt: You know what I mean? And I'm out. And I don't have cell service. I don't have the Internet. I can't look it up. I just kind of had to figure it out. And I was thinking about him saying that. I was like, yeah, God, that's the rub, isn't isn't that I've never been exposed to the answer to this problem. It's that I haven't retained it. And the reason that I haven't retained it isn't because I have a malfunction of a lack of space. It's not like Google's telling me your cloud's full. Pay a little bit more money and you can remember more shit.

[63:06] Michael: I wish it was that way.

[63:09] Matt: No, but that's the thing is you don't remember information. You remember experience. And you can remember a lot of experience. You know this because we have a phrase for this. We say it's like riding a bike. Once you've experienced it, you never forget it. But a person can read as many books about riding a bike as they want. They're not going to know how to ride a bike until they actually experience the riding of the bike. And so I think the place in your brain that you want for that information, whether it's like figuring out how to. Figuring out ancient Eastern pottery or how to tie knots, it isn't to fucking. It's not to watch a bunch of Instagram Reels or YouTube videos or read a bunch of books even. You actually just have to go do the thing. And then once you've done the thing, you know how to do that thing, which is.

[64:07] Michael: But there's another side of this, too, because I remember this growing up is like watching Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and like, I was a basketball player, and so I was actively doing that, but there was something about watching them that made me better because I was seeing subconsciously or whatever, seeing their form, seeing how they were doing, the concentration.

[64:33] Matt: But you only knew what to see.

[64:35] Michael: Totally. That's the point I'm making.

[64:37] Matt: It's like.

[64:37] Michael: It's like. It's. Even with, like, golf and stuff like that. Like, when I watch golf growing up, I don't play any golf now, but like, it's like you're. You're seeing something and then you go out and you. You're consciously and unconsciously doing that, and then you're. You're. You're experiencing it, right? And so then you're building that experience. But. And I, I tell my kids this all the time. Like when they were at softball and. And basketball, I was like, it's like, hey, guys, come watch a game. Because there's, there's something valuable about seeing. You don't know what's possible until you see other people do it. And then you're like, oh, it's like the. You know, the breaking of the two hour marathon. It's like, you watch this and you see it broken. It's like, oh, that's possible. And then, and then your, your level of like what is possible actually goes way up, you know, and then it's not just a matter of knowing it, it's about experiencing it. Maybe you go from like a three minute, three hour mile to a two and a half hour marathon, you know, but there's something about those types of watching or experiencing things in that, in that way that actually broadens your horizons to what is possible. And then I'd bring it back to AI. I think AI does that also after reading the Asimov stuff, it's like, I think a lot of our space travel will happen through AI And I think there's no other way that that can happen outside of AI in a more safe way. Yes, maybe 17 people have gone into outside of Earth's orbit, but it was like extremely dangerous.

[66:21] Matt: Well, was it?

[66:22] Michael: I don't know.

[66:23] Matt: Oh, totally. I mean in one, in one sense, yes, of course. But also in another sense, 100% success rate is pretty, I mean, that's pretty amazing.

[66:34] Michael: Like, maybe I don't know enough about it, but that sounds, it doesn't sound as solid as I'm watching a.

[66:42] Matt: Well, I mean there was Apollo 13. Like it's, you know, not fully successful. But yeah, nobody died.

[66:49] Michael: Yeah.

[66:50] Matt: Which, you know.

[66:51] Michael: Well, I'm just like watching, I'm watching like a, for all mankind right now in this. Like, like, okay, once we start like making moon bases and you know, stations that, you know, like how many, what all things have gone wrong on the International Space Station. We probably don't hear about most of those things, you know.

[67:13] Matt: So it's interesting, somebody recently made the point that if cars had been invented in the early 2000s, we would never have allowed them because they're so dangerous.

[67:29] Michael: Totally. That makes sense to me.

[67:32] Matt: And I wonder if we start like if we make a moon base, are we going to tolerate the failures?

[67:39] Michael: Oh, that's actually a really good point.

[67:40] Matt: Or are we going to say, yeah, we're not doing this anymore because the first time somebody gets sucked out of the airlock and then the whole thing collapses and the rest of the people inside die and you can't recover the bodies.

[67:54] Michael: Yeah.

[67:55] Matt: And you can't burn them. And so it's just sort of like we're a little bit complacent about all the dead bodies on Mount Everest because none of us were paying attention when they went and did that. But if we're all paying attention to the moon base and a bunch of people die, and that's just where they are. Now, how quickly do we shut that down?

[68:14] Michael: Totally.

[68:15] Matt: Because I don't think we have the tolerance for that kind of gruesome brutality anymore.

[68:20] Michael: Well, yeah, I think that's. That's tough because I think you are right. In my mind, it's like, no, like the people who do those kind of things understand that risk, you know, and, and.

[68:35] Matt: But you are not most people.

[68:36] Michael: That's true. But I do see, like, you're not

[68:40] Matt: the politicians who are gonna have something to say about this.

[68:44] Michael: Yeah, but you did see that. I mean, I know it's just a movie by a TV series, but for all mankind, it's like those were real things that they were facing is like, you know, if something goes wrong, it's like public opinion sways and therefore money is then denied from those programs. It's like. I think that's why.

[69:01] Matt: I think is ultimately why NASA stalled out for three decades.

[69:05] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's so fascinating.

[69:08] Matt: I mean, after the Challenger incident, I think really public opinion changed.

[69:12] Michael: I think that's why for all mankind, it was sort of like if, If NASA hadn't stalled out, like, where would they be?

[69:18] Matt: Right. Speaking of Challenger, have you seen. How many astronauts were on Challenger? Four, Four or five.

[69:30] Michael: I thought seven, but that might be true.

[69:35] Matt: There are people currently alive with those people's exact same name that look exactly like those people.

[69:44] Michael: Are you going conspiracy?

[69:45] Matt: Yes. It's weird.

[69:48] Michael: Oh, it's hilarious.

[69:49] Matt: Yeah.

[69:50] Michael: Well, you think that at least changed their names?

[69:52] Matt: I know, right? Yeah, like, no, this is the most genius witness protection program ever. We're just going to have them be them.

[70:01] Michael: Same family, same house.

[70:05] Matt: Yeah. Back to what you were saying earlier about sort of knowing what is possible and you only know it by coming up against the end of it. And then you're like, oh, I'm still capable of more like you were talking about the time for the running a mile or marathon. Are you familiar with that study somebody did on rats where.

[70:33] Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[70:34] Matt: It's like totally inhumane and we probably wouldn't ever allow it now, but this guy took rats and he put them in. He took like a, you know, cylindrical beaker basically filled with water and put a rat in there. So the rat had to tread water and had nowhere to go, couldn't get out. And he just left the rat in there until it died. And it died in about 15 minutes. Drowned. And then he took another rat and he put it in there. And at 14 minutes, 45 seconds, he took the rat out. He let it recover, dried it off, gave it some food, put that same rat back in the tube. And having established the baseline of how long can a rat tread water. First rat 15 minutes, second rat, 60 hours. It's like once the rat got to the end and knew where it was.

[71:34] Michael: Yeah.

[71:35] Matt: And then was offered relief, it could hold out so much longer.

[71:41] Michael: Yeah.

[71:42] Matt: Knowing that it was possible that it would get saved. That's crazy.

[71:49] Michael: Well, it, I mean, that's a scary thing about AI Also in general is like, you know, as we, as we start pushing on this and like, how far does it go and what does it actually like reveal to us? I think that's, that's kind of that same, kind of same idea is like, it's like what is actually possible is hyperdrive or warp speed in Star Trek? Is that possible? It's like, we don't really know. We don't really know what is possible. And I think that part of AI is both scary and also exhilarating for me, anyways. Or even what kind of music is the future going to be? Like, like in Asimov, there's this. There's this one instrument that it's not just about the music it's playing. It's actually drawing on your emotions and it's color and it's like, it's a full body experience. Almost like what Pink Floyd did, you know, in the 70s and 60s. It's sort of like they took music and then they added a whole nother layer where it's like a visual experience to it. And that was kind of like revolutionary. It's like, well, what, what kind of experiences can music actually produce that is otherworldly, you know, that draws you into something that, you know, you see this, I saw this real quick, but with EDM music, electronic music, one of the first times that they added like a whole show to like, it was a pyramid and like lights and it's like aliens and stuff like that. And it was just sort of like it was the first time, like people were like, oh my gosh, like, what is this? And all of a sudden they were like drawn into a different experience because they were mixing different mediums to. To draw, like to enter, to draw some sort of entertainment, you know.

[73:56] Matt: Yeah.

[73:57] Michael: You even see this in the Glass Bead games with Herman Hess where, you know, there's this game where they pull in like mathematics and physics and art, and it's this esoteric game that everyone's in awe of. Because all these connections are made that no one saw or thought was possible, but because somebody did it, they were like, whoa, that's beautiful. So I'm just really curious, like, what is the art of the future?

[74:29] Matt: Well, I wonder if there's some maybe eternal truth here, which is that whatever the art of the future is, it is guaranteed that some older generation will find it to be demonic.

[74:46] Michael: Totally.

[74:48] Matt: It's like, how did the majority of America, or let's say older America, respond to Elvis Presley? Essentially making young women orgasm in public? You know, they're fainting.

[75:04] Michael: It's like.

[75:05] Matt: It's hysteric. Hysterics. And what did people say about him?

[75:11] Michael: Yeah.

[75:12] Matt: That he was demonic.

[75:13] Michael: Yeah. Then Beatles. And then you have, like, totally.

[75:17] Matt: But, like, what would America be without Elvis Presley?

[75:20] Michael: Yeah.

[75:21] Matt: You know, some part of our DNA is part of our culture heritage. Michael Jackson, which. Man, I'm seeing some, like, crazy stuff about Michael Jackson these days that people are saying that they labeled him a pedophile because he was the only person in Hollywood who wasn't a pedophile.

[75:38] Michael: Yeah.

[75:40] Matt: And that he was taking kids to Neverland to his ranch in order to protect them from going to Epstein's Island.

[75:46] Michael: Oh, God, I've heard that.

[75:49] Matt: And apparently this is corroborated by, like, Macaulay Culkin, who was sort of famously involved with Michael Jackson and some of his music videos. And anyway, it's like, what's the truth? I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, are we cursed? And I say we, the royal we, to always think that what is new is demonic, when in hindsight, it's like, no, this is just a new genre of music that you didn't understand.

[76:21] Michael: Yeah.

[76:22] Matt: You know, maybe you're right. This is just a new tool that, I mean, admittedly, we don't understand.

[76:29] Michael: Yeah.

[76:29] Matt: You know, even I would say you and I, who are using it probably more than most people, and at a. At a level that is. What, Further out on the frontier, as you might say.

[76:42] Michael: Yeah.

[76:43] Matt: Than the majority of people. We don't know what we're doing.

[76:48] Michael: No.

[76:48] Matt: You know, it's like, you say it's really great to, you know, it's like, push my ideas out and have them get pushed back on me. And my thought is, yeah, but sometimes what comes back is, hi, what's your name? Like.

[77:02] Michael: Or that's the greatest thought ever.

[77:04] Matt: Three months and you forgot my name.

[77:08] Michael: Totally.

[77:09] Matt: What happened?

[77:10] Michael: Or that's the greatest thing you said so far. And I'm like, that's what you said yesterday.

[77:13] Matt: Yeah.

[77:14] Michael: You know, like. But that's a part. It's like, it's like, it's like it's not. It's not perfect. And it's like. And it's like you have to push through the fluff and the arbitrariness of what AI produces because it's like, I'm not interested in what AI produces. I have an idea of something and I want to get to that idea.

[77:37] Matt: Well, here's a question. You say it's not perfect. According to what example? Meaning?

[77:50] Michael: Oh, shoot, we're way into this. I know where I want to go with this, but I don't know if we can get there.

[77:56] Matt: Let's try it. Let's do 10 more minutes.

[77:58] Michael: 10 more minutes? Yeah, we can do it in 10 minutes.

[78:02] Matt: I'm a person and I'm not perfect. How do I know? Well, it's obvious because I produce slop, produce slope. Well, but also I have something I can measure myself against, which is that there has been a perfect person who has lived. Okay, AI is not perfect. AI is not a person. What would perfect AI mean? What would that be? What could you measure it against to determine whether or not it was flawless?

[78:36] Michael: Well, you definitely see it in the interaction because it's like, what is. What is it? What's most disappointing to you when you're interacting with it is the very thing you just said is like, we just talked about this, or, you know, don't you understand where I'm going with this?

[78:52] Matt: But aren't those things that we say in our everyday relationships all the time?

[78:56] Michael: But I think that's the part is like, when we think of something that is perfect, it, like it not only already knows us, but it knows kind of where we're going.

[79:06] Matt: Yep. Yeah.

[79:07] Michael: And I think that's so God. Yeah. And so we're summed it up.

[79:12] Matt: And so if it's not God, but it pretends to be God. Well, it's not that it is.

[79:18] Michael: It's not that it pretends to be God. We pretend that it is God. And so. So it's like it comes back to relationship and tool.

[79:24] Matt: Better said, we pretend it is God, which makes it.

[79:31] Michael: Oh, yeah. But I think that's. Again, it comes back to the whole idea of tools. It's like if you're not in proper relationship with it, then it's like becomes something like demonic, you know, And I think that's the part that I think there is a danger in that. But that's why. That's why I think of like, oh,

[79:51] Matt: that's yeah, go ahead.

[79:52] Michael: No, go ahead.

[79:53] Matt: Oh, I just. I think in the last two weeks, and I had so many thoughts that I wanted to talk to you about, but one is this idea of teleology, which is a term that I've heard come up in.

[80:05] Michael: I always forget what it means.

[80:06] Matt: It means the study of the purpose of things. So if something has a telos, it has a purpose. And I was listening to this podcast. This guy used the example of a knife. He said, the purpose of a knife is to cut something. And only once I understand that purpose can I understand whether or not the knife I have is a good knife or a bad knife. And only once I understand that purpose can I understand the ways that I can improve or mistreat this item. If that purpose is not understood, then that object has no relevance. Essentially, like, I can't define it at all. It's only by something's purpose that I know what makes it good or bad that I can judge it at all. Yeah, maybe the thing that we're maybe moving into, and it's not unique to AI, we've been moving into it since the late 90s with the advent of the Internet and the information age. It's like we don't know what the purpose for all of this is. What is the purpose of this AI? Is it to answer our questions? That doesn't seem like a really good purpose. Is it to build things for us? That seems like maybe a better purpose, you know, like, what was the purpose of social media? We thought it would connect us, and yet we're more disconnected than ever. You know what is the most common complaint in politics these days? We're more divided than ever. That was supposed to be Obama.

[81:38] Michael: That was horrible.

[81:39] Matt: That was terrible. Not an impression guy. No. Yeah. It's like, hey, we gave you all the information. It's at your fingertips. We're more divided than ever. What is up with that? You know, it's like, what is the purpose of all this? What was the purpose of Facebook? What's the purpose of Instagram? I can tell you. I think the purpose of Instagram is to shut your brain off, because I use it for that all the time. You know, I'm struggling, I'm stressed, I'm sad, I'm anxious. We have a solution for that. If you're not willing to take our SSRIs and our benzodiazepines and whatever else. It's called reels. It's called short form content. I think when we have gotten very unclear about the purpose of things. Everything turns into an, an undefined. And it doesn't go away, though. It's just an undefined. It's a disfigured thing. It's like that scene in Mel Gibson's the Passion where it depicts Satan as a bald Voldemort. Voldemort looking woman holding a young child, an infant almost. And yet you can't really tell whether or not this infant is younger or older than the woman holding it, or whether or not this infant, which is, I mean, an infant, is the locust of innocence. And this particular infant that he represents in the Passion is obviously evil. And it's so uncomfortable to look at. It's so uncomfortable to look at evil depicted in the most innocent symbol. And I think when things become very undefined, they start to look disfigured like that and start to turn themselves inside out on us. And I think we come up against that all the time as we lose purpose and start looking for satiation in order to help us with the anxiety of not having a telos, not having any understanding of teleology.

[84:10] Michael: Well, so it's like, I want to, I want to. I, I agree with that side of things, and I kind of want to like, pose the other side of it too is like, like, how much has YouTube and Instagram also been in X for that example, or Twitter back then, been so valuable to us. It connected us to people that were also questioning the same things we were questioning, and it held true. And it just, it's like, it, it was like, oh, okay, I'm not crazy. Other people are also thinking about, does that make sense? Are, are black people being more proportionally killed by cops than us? And it's like, it's like if we didn't have the Internet, I would have no access to that information. And it's sort of like it helped push back against narratives that were being propagated that we would not have had any other way to know or even well.

[85:04] Matt: But also the narratives wouldn't have propagated without that same mechanism.

[85:08] Michael: But again, I think that's, that's the point is, is like, it's, it's a tool and like how you use the tool and it's like, you know, nuclear energy versus, you know, nuclear bombs. It's like, yeah, it's like the more powerful the tools are, and AI is one of those tools. It's like, it actually can be super helpful and useful, but it can also be destructive. You know, Instagram can like, connect you with other people that are maybe have the same interests as you and that you can connect and grow with in those interests or can also lead you down the death spiral of scrolling your brain, which I've done both. I mean I'm not saying like I'm a, I'm above this, but it's like I just, I just see that that AI is also. It's in and, and it's always in a young tool. It's. It. The misuse becomes a lot more apparent. It's. It's like as it matures, the tools mature. It's like we start to like have a better handle on like. I don't think that's true at all. I know as I was saying, I was kind of like backing away from what you said. I think they become more obvious. It's like a nuclear bomb versus a nuclear energy. It's like we went away from the very thing that was actually positive about it because of the negative part of it. And I think that was unhealthy.

[86:29] Matt: Well, to Eric Weinstein's point, it's like we scared the shit out of ourselves and so we got religion.

[86:36] Michael: Sorry.

[86:37] Matt: Well, his point was like we made treaties to not continue to do this and he's actually one calling for renewed above ground testing because he feels like we need to scare ourselves back into some respect for it. Yeah, but I don't know, I think like the Internet comes to mind. Like I don't think that it has become. I don't think that the harm of the Internet has lessened as it's matured. I think it's greatly been exaggerated. Sorry, that's not the right word. Not exaggerated. It has increased. The harm of the Internet has increased and yet our perception of its harm has become ever more complacent.

[87:21] Michael: Well, I see, I push, but I mean it's just, it's all about like, like where, where you stand in that. It's like it's like just thinking about all the different communities that it is joined together. You know, it's like whether it be.

[87:34] Matt: Well, I'm not making a point about whether it's net positive or negative.

[87:38] Michael: Okay. I thought that you were. You sound like you're saying it's more net negative.

[87:42] Matt: I'm not saying that at all.

[87:43] Michael: Okay.

[87:43] Matt: I'm just saying I don't think it's either. I think that as it's matured, the harm it's done has increased and the

[87:51] Michael: good it's done has increased. Yeah, totally.

[87:53] Matt: Okay, yeah, I'll take that. I accept that. But I'm just saying I don't think we've woken up to the harm of it. I mean, I think it's very unpopular to take Jonathan Haidt's perspective that teenagers literally should not have this technology. We're still so naive about cell phones and the Internet that we're just like, oh, it's fine. Give a 2 year old a tablet, we're going out to dinner. Right. I think we're totally asleep at the wheel as a culture. With the harm that the Internet is doing to people, it's also doing great amounts of good. And you know, if you ask me, hey, will you give up the Internet? I'm like, no, no. Right. Hey, do you want to go back and live in the 18th century founding of America? I mean like, maybe for kind of romantic idea. There's some nostalgia for that. But also like, I like bathrooms and refrigerated food, you know, and drink water. Yeah. So I'm not saying that we should all become Amish, but I'm also saying I don't think that we're. I don't think we've come to Jesus in a. To use that sort of colloquially. Colloquially about the thing that we've created in the harm that it's doing to us.

[89:35] Michael: But I think that's a. I don't. I just more like think like that's just, that's not a, that's not a specific case. Just the fact of life. Like there's no, there's no going back. It's about moving forward. And you're not going to, you're not going to put this genie back in the bottle of, of man's sin, you know, and it's sort of like, it's like I feel like some of the

[90:06] Matt: turtles all the way down.

[90:07] Michael: Turtles all. Yeah. And it's like, it's like no humans will use things to up. Yeah. And also for great things. It's like that's why named Medici. Medici was like the Medici family were a great thing. He's like, money, influence and power are not good or bad. It's what you do with them. And the Medici family did a lot of really great things and a lot of really horrible things. And it's like, it's like that you're never going to get rid of that. And I think, I think one of the things that's why I want to encourage, like this is something my dad told me too. Like when I was in high school, I wanted to go into politics. And then about two years into I worked at a strategic consultant. I was a At the page of the Congress, whatever. And I just got disillusioned. He's like. He's like, no, we need people like you. I was like, yeah, but I don't want to be a part of that. There's so much corruption and blah, blah. All the bad stuff. He's like. He's like, yeah, but if people like you don't do that, then all the

[91:05] Matt: people, then it's just corrupt people.

[91:06] Michael: There's corrupt people. And it's sort of like.

[91:08] Matt: Sounds like my experience with the church.

[91:10] Michael: Yeah. Whether it's the church or whether. Wherever it is, it's like. And I think it's like, we need people that are skeptics of these things to use AI to explore nuclear whatever it might be. It's like, we need those people. So it's like, I think just scaring people away from all these things or saying it's bad or evil or whatever. It's just sort of. It keeps the people that we actually want out of those fields. You know, politics. It's like, why would you want to go to politics? It's all it is, is cheats and, you know, crooks. Crooks.

[91:49] Matt: You know, it's like liars and scoundrels.

[91:52] Michael: Yeah, but it's like any sane person would be like, yeah, I don't want to. I'm not going to do that.

[92:00] Matt: Well, as Brett Weinstein would say, one is a special number. As soon as you have one who isn't like the others, then everyone has to compare themselves to that and compete with that, which is kind of the argument for Jesus, in a way.

[92:19] Michael: I love it.

[92:22] Matt: All right.

[92:22] Michael: Yeah. We did it.

[92:23] Matt: We did it. We got there.

[92:25] Michael: All right. Thank you guys for coming out.

[92:26] Matt: Cheers out there.

[92:27] Michael: We love y'. All.

[92:27] Matt: Love y'.

[92:28] Michael: All.

[92:28] Matt: Be careful, be careful. Be good, be good.