Who Unhooked the Earth From the Sun?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers.

[0:21] Michael: Hello. Hello. Hello. How are you doing? I'm doing good.

[0:25] Matt: How are you doing? I'm doing good.

[0:27] Michael: Sometimes I like to talk to myself. How am I doing? I am good. Are you sure, Michael? I don't know, man. Stop asking me hard questions. God, don't be a dick.

[0:38] Matt: All right, all right. To the unknown.

[0:40] Michael: To the unknown.

[0:41] Matt: To the shores.

[0:46] Michael: I'm just gonna have this podcast with myself.

[0:48] Matt: Yeah, I'll just listen.

[0:51] Michael: Just listen.

[0:53] Matt: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what we want to get into tonight. Like one of the rare, I think, occasions where I don't have like a couple of subjects that I'm interested in talking about. I feel sort of emotionally muted right now.

[1:10] Michael: Yeah, well, it just was kind of funny because you and I had like super deep conversation. Always up to.

[1:19] Matt: I feel like we always find our way to it. We find our way to mean here a little bit.

[1:22] Michael: Uh huh. That's the truth.

[1:25] Matt: It's the thing about conversation.

[1:29] Michael: Oh, it just makes me think, like I really do have like very elaborate conversations with myself and I don't think anybody has disagree with me more than myself.

[1:40] Matt: Like, how does that work for you to have a conversation with yourself a lot? Have like a dialogue with yourself?

[1:48] Michael: Yeah, it's like, it's everything from dialogue and also like replaying situations and scenarios to. And then kind of like, oh, shoot, that was dumb. Or oh, maybe it should be more like this. Well, that doesn't make any sense because, you know, if you go that way with that, then this, this, this, and then if that, then that. And you like thinking through chess moves basically. Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is fascinating too because I think that kind of helps me better understand like why faith is so important is because, I mean, I'm pretty good at chess. I'm not like, great, but like to be able to think like quite a few moves ahead. And it's like I can kind of do that in real life also. But the more I go along in life, I start to start to see how many variables there actually are, not just the ones I perceive or think. And it's like, I can't play that game. Like, I might even if I could take a hundred variables, like, that's still nothing. And so there's this part, like, it's like, okay, you have a certain amount of information and now you have to act on that information. And that's faith. It's like, you know, I believe this and this is why I believe that. And it could be completely logical, you know, to some degree.

[3:10] Matt: I mean, it sounds like you're not even really making a religious point there, or maybe you are pointing out that it is a religious point, but that that's how we all act. I mean, the world is uncontrollable, and yet we do accomplish a lot, you

[3:27] Michael: know, and we can actually, like, inter. Interact and behave in a way that we're fairly accurate a bit of the time. And so it's like, you know, if I'm nice to my wife, usually that. Right. That produces good things, you know, but it's not just in being nice, because is it opening a door for her? Well, that might be good for a couple times, but then it doesn't. It's not. That's just routine. You're not really being present or active in opening the door for her, you know, And. And so it's. All those variables are changing. Like, so what's my goal is to be nice to her or to do things for her like, what. What are you trying to do here? And I think that's the part that. That once you kind of start kind of figuring some things out, it just. It's just so dynamic. It's not. There's no rule book to really, you know, like, to be Matt's friend is to show up on Wednesday nights. That's all I have to do. It's like, well, that's. That's a part. Like. But that's not. That's not our friendship. It's just me showing up.

[4:35] Matt: Right. Well, I feel like what you're saying is that to live is a creative act. It's to create something. It's not to recreate something. It is to create something. I mean, what do we. What are you in a relationship for? You know, some people might say, well, I'm in this relationship because it takes care of my needs. And that's not a very good reason to be in a relationship. And those kinds of relationships don't tend to last very long. When you're in a relationship for something like love. Love is a creative force which sees and understands that, you know, you open the door for your wife, and then that becomes routine and expected and. But love sees well, now that we've kind of got that down, what else can we do? How else can I show you my love?

[5:34] Michael: Or even, like, if I die and somebody opens the door for my wife, she's like, oh, I remember all those times that he did that. So it's like, it It. There's. There's this layer upon layer of. Of meaning that we. That is embedded into our existence. And it's like. Like, yeah, it's just. It just baffles me. Like, like, what if. Sorry, I just. It's like the. We're just talking about the. The chess games and stuff like that, and it's like. It's like, okay, well, well, what are we playing? What's the goal of this?

[6:16] Matt: What do you think? What do we. What.

[6:17] Michael: What.

[6:18] Matt: What is the goal of life? What are we here for?

[6:20] Michael: That's a really good question. I mean, I think I've got a really. A nice package to answer for that. But it, but it needs to be unfolded for your entire life, you know, which is. I think the main part is to know God, you know, to like. And I think in knowing God, it reveals your purpose and. And your reference point for all other things. You know, it's like. Like I see my wife in reference to God as we're like, God loves my wife more than I could ever love her, and I could never understand that. So part of it is like, unpacking that, like, what makes her so special? You know, the guy, the homeless dude on the street. It's like it applies to him too. Like, what makes him so special. And then to also see, like, oh, wow. You know, so many of us don't even see or understand, like, what makes us special. And it's a lens from which I think everything else starts to. To come alive. And so I think that's why I would. I would phrase it in that way, because I don't. I don't think there's a. There's not a sufficient lens that's. That's less like, to make more money. That's why I'm alive, to be comfortable, to be happy. It's like, well, what is happiness is like. It's like, I know a lot of people that you will not want to be in their shoes, but they're more happy than somebody that you might want to, like, drive their Ferrari, you know, and so it just gets so confusing outside of the greatest or biggest concept, which is God, you know?

[7:56] Matt: Well, I guess you could say, what is God? Then? If we are here to know God, what is God?

[8:03] Michael: Oh, it's easy. Got that. Let's move on.

[8:10] Matt: I mean, God is, you know, what are the first words of the Bible, basically? Or maybe if you take John's account, where he starts from the beginning and says, in the beginning was the word, and the word was God and the Word was with God. And what does the word do? Well, the Word is what spoke everything into existence. So you could say God is the ultimate creator, the ultimate sort of creative act. And if it is, as we say, that to live is to be creative, and that is to partake in that divinity. That divinity, yeah. And then Jesus comes and he says that he is the truth. He doesn't say, I'm telling you the truth. He says, if you want to know the truth, know me. So God is truth. So it seems like the proposition might be that we are here to see and know truth and to participate in love. And everything that is pointed in that direction becomes more properly ordered, more properly effective in some way. Like, you want a good marriage. What does that mean? Well, I think it's oriented toward truth and love. It's oriented toward, you know, God.

[9:46] Michael: So this is. This is a perfect example of Michael warring in his head. Okay, like, to me, that sounds like total cheese, what you just said. But you know what? I totally buy into exactly what you just said. And I hold those two parts, like, in my head at the same time.

[10:04] Matt: It's becoming more and more. I can. I remember that feeling.

[10:12] Michael: Yeah.

[10:13] Matt: I don't have that feeling much anymore because it seems to me like it can't be any other way.

[10:18] Michael: Oh, totally.

[10:18] Matt: Like, what else, you know, what else could you possibly be here for? As you. You mean, you just listed money, comfort, happiness. It's like there's a problem because I don't know what those three things are.

[10:30] Michael: Yeah. Or in reference to.

[10:32] Matt: Or in reference to. And there's nothing that can show it to me. The difference is that truth and love, I don't know what those things are either, but there is something that can show it to me. It is. It is love that shows me the truth, and that's actionable happiness. You know, it's so subjective and circumstantial. You know, there's nothing really true about it. And it's not. It ends, you know, it's temporary. Truth is not temporary. Love is not temporary. My mom said something to me the other day, something like, love, if it. If it fades, it isn't love, because love doesn't fade. And that was. That was a hard one for me. So I thought, you know, but my feelings of love certainly fluctuate. You know, whether it's for a romantic partner or a family member or, you know, there's certainly times when I don't feel love toward my children. I feel just like anger. Just popped into my head. This is years ago. I think it was during COVID I had made a pan of brownies and they had come out of the oven. Put the pan up on top of the oven for them to cool. I went off and did something else. And then I came back and all three of my kids were in their rooms. But there was a single brownie cut out of the very center of the pan.

[12:13] Michael: That was like.

[12:14] Matt: You savages.

[12:16] Michael: Who does that? That is wonderful. I love that.

[12:20] Matt: It was so funny.

[12:21] Michael: But it's like, that's not the way you eat brownies.

[12:24] Matt: But I think we make the mistake often of imagining that love is something like a feeling. You know, we talk about falling into love. We talk about the feeling of love more than we talk about the truth of love, which is, you know. And maybe that's because we love imperfectly.

[12:47] Michael: Yeah.

[12:48] Matt: But. I think that love, more properly understood, is something like an act of participation and less of a feeling. I mean, you can have a lot of feelings associated with love. One example of this is like, I'm sure that you've experienced the sort of, like, counterfactual nature of sex, which is that you would think that sex comes. Is interesting because of attraction, and love would play a big part in that. But you also know that sometimes you're most interested in sex when you're the most angry. Do you know what I mean? Like after a fight. That's why makeup sex is like a thing. Yeah, right. You fight terribly and then you're turned on and you're like, what is this? I don't know what point I'm trying to make with that, but I think that love isn't the definition that I have been using for love is that love is the will to. Will the good of the other. To bring. To willfully bring good into someone's life. And that's a participatory act. It isn't. A feeling produces feelings, but it is the action of love. I mean, what does John 3:16 say? For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, he took action on his love. Yeah. The love was an action. I think, just like truth is a person, love is a person as well. And to. To relate with that, to relate with love is another one of those creative acts that you participate in. And it's not like you're following rules. It's like you're. You're discovering it as you participate with it.

[14:51] Michael: Yeah, that's good. Well, it's also the idea of giving something of yourself or something that you have to somebody else. Like, that's. That's really fascinating. Like, even, like we talked about last week with Mary the petite. Yeah. You know, just like, even giving your children to the world, it's like, that's an act of love. If you don't, then they're just. They're not going to be active participants. They're going to be shells of themselves if you try to protect them from the world. And, like, that's not love, is to, like, not give them.

[15:27] Matt: Yeah. You know, it's like to give them over to. To their lives.

[15:33] Michael: Yeah.

[15:33] Matt: I mean, I think Peterson said the good mother fails. The good mother gives her children to the world to be break, beaten and broken.

[15:43] Michael: Yeah.

[15:43] Matt: You know, and it's the. The mother who doesn't do that is the one who severely hampers for children.

[15:54] Michael: We think about just all the different systems that actually encourage protection are the ones that, you know, fail. Like communism, socialism. It's like, it's like, we're going to take care of you. It's like, that's not loving. Like, there's a difference between, like, if someone's in a. It's a very specific thing. Like, someone's in a difficult place, but how to love them is very specific. It might not be giving them money. It might be just saying hi to them every day, you know, or getting in a conversation with somebody. It's like, it's like. But we want to, like, provide these things, like, oh, we're going to love our neighbor, so we're going to give these sort of like, you know, this is how we do it.

[16:38] Matt: It's true. There is something kind of infantilizing about being cared for in the wrong context.

[16:44] Michael: Yeah.

[16:46] Matt: To be coddled when you are capable of standing on your own is to be infantilized. And it doesn't feel good to be in a situation in which someone treats you like not much should be expected of you. And so they're going to do things for you that makes you feel like a very small kind of person. And if you love someone, you strengthen them. What is it to will the good of the other, to make you strong so that you can be made more effective? Because I believe that you are capable of that. And that is so much better than removing the need to be capable. You remove the need to be capable? Well, what are you? You don't know. You're not much. I mean, I think Christian discourse talks a lot about how faith is. Your faith is known by testing it. Which is similar to saying something like, well, it's like, how do you know how strong you are by using your muscles. You know, another thing Peterson talks about that I think is very good is that a good man is never a weak man. A weak man is not a moral man. A moral man is someone who is strong, who is a monster, but knows how to keep that contained. And you see that in the imagery of Beauty and the Beast, for example. You know that there is this beast within him, but that he's a beast who becomes civilized. And that's a person who can be trusted because that's a person who has control over themselves. An effective good man is a man who knows how to wield a sword and also knows how to keep it in its sheath. But you don't know, you know, a sheathed sword isn't any good to someone who doesn't know how to use it, so there's no point to having it.

[18:56] Michael: Yeah, that's. I was just thinking, like, you see someone with a sword, you're like, oh, that's a dangerous man.

[19:02] Matt: It's like that tells you nothing about the man.

[19:04] Michael: Yeah, he just has a sword.

[19:07] Matt: Well, maybe another analogy is that, you know, that a safe knife is a sharp knife. When a knife becomes dull, when it's not maintained, it becomes very dangerous.

[19:17] Michael: Yeah.

[19:17] Matt: I mean, an effective fighter is a safe person to be around. Someone who doesn't know how to fight is a very dangerous person to be around if they get into a fight.

[19:27] Michael: Totally.

[19:28] Matt: Especially if they've got, you know, arrogance issues and an ego problem, you know, which, you know, you've seen men like that all the time. It's just like, take a stroll down Dirty Six, you know, one Friday evening, and you can tell there are people who are dangerous to be around, not because they're, you know, effectively dangerous, but because they're ignorantly dangerous.

[19:53] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[19:54] Matt: You know what I mean? Whether it's because they're drunk or whatever. But.

[20:01] Michael: So I, I kind of want to head a, A different direction. It's the same thing. But I, I, we're. We're. Right now we're painting this picture, and I kind of want to paint a contrasting picture. Like, like, let's just get rid of God altogether, you know? I mean, what do we need God for? Like, why can't we just do these things without God? Like, there's, you know. You know, I just start, I mean, just gonna start to paint the picture here. It's like, you know, we're human beings. You know, we have sex, we have kids. You know, some people choose this, some people choose that. It doesn't really matter, you know, like what you choose to do. It's like. But then we also see like, okay, hey, well, we do need to have kids and move them to the future. It's like, okay, well, people fall in love. It's like, okay, well, you're an animal, so you fall in love. And so there's these feelings that drive you towards procreation. And you know, it's like in the west we have like, we kind of tend towards, you know, what do you call it when people. Two people just made up?

[21:08] Matt: I don't know. Two people made up.

[21:11] Michael: Not polyamorous, but like just two people. There's a word for it anyways.

[21:18] Matt: Monogamy.

[21:19] Michael: Monogamy, okay. It's like in the west they've kind of tended towards monogamy. We've seen that that's been, you know, most useful in, in raising kids. And we, you know, so you start doing studies and you start saying, okay, hey, actually it's good for a husband and a wife to be married or to at least be in a long term relationship to help raise a kid. So it's like, okay, cool. So you can kind of start. You can start to kind of see and feel meaning in that sort of evolutionary, like, okay, this is best evolutionarily as far as, like, to have better kids and to have a better society, you know.

[21:58] Matt: Well, let's take a, let's pause for a second. You say get rid of God.

[22:02] Michael: Yeah.

[22:03] Matt: What is that? I don't know.

[22:04] Michael: That's what I'm trying to think.

[22:05] Matt: What is it that we're getting rid of? Yeah, I mean, I think we've just sort of laid out the claim that God is truth and love. Okay, get rid of truth and love.

[22:16] Michael: Well, I don't think.

[22:17] Matt: Now let's do it.

[22:17] Michael: I don't think you have to get rid of truth and love. Like I. And I think this is kind of like the part that I want to kind of like, still, man, this is like, what is truth and love without. If there is no God, like, is there. Does it still exist around us or in us?

[22:35] Matt: I don't think so.

[22:37] Michael: Well, I know it's easy to just say that, but I mean, well, podcast over. Yeah, Michael, you're wrong.

[22:44] Matt: Well, okay, let's try to play it out. Okay, so you just made the claim that monogamous relationships seem to be best for raising kids. But studies have shown this. Yeah, okay, There's a bunch of problems with that statement. That statement makes sense to us and it sounds right to us. Because we live with the latent frame of cultural Christianity, I think I would say without the concept of God, without truth and love. Because I think we have to be somewhat specific about what the definition of God is before we can evaluate how getting rid of it might change things. So at least for now, I'm going to say truth and love. We get rid of truth and love. Well, monogamous relationships are best. Well, best according to what? Best means that there's some goal to it which this particular scenario achieves better than other scenarios. And if you don't have truth in love, then how can you specify that goal? How can you even say that raising kids is a good thing to do? And then how can you say there are questions that are worth answering and in order to answer them, we're going to do studies on them. If you've gotten rid of truth and love, there's no reason to go down that road in the first place.

[24:14] Michael: Well, it depends on your starting point. So if you live in a chaotic world and everybody's just killing everybody, you might be like, hey, how can we do less of this? And you can start kind of building a society in a way that, okay, we have less people killing each other this year than last year. Oh man, look at this.

[24:33] Matt: But why would you want to have less of it?

[24:35] Michael: Well, I like to stay alive. And, you know, I find that if I have people that I'm trading with that are alive longer than, you know, three months, then it's like, it makes life a lot easier to feed myself and my family. Society becomes more reliable so that I don't have to worry about Sam Marcus invading Austin at any point.

[24:56] Matt: You know, it's like, but you've still got some kind of presupposition in there. Because if you say not to die, well, I value not dying. Right. So let's imagine we live in a society in which people are always killing each other and you want to not die. I mean, trying to become a politician is a pretty sure fire way to die. So if that's really your main value is to not die, then you might say, I need to get as strong as possible, get as many weapons as possible and dominate this game and become the most murderous, the most successful murderer, the most successful strongman that there is. That is the best way to not die. And your suggestion that, well, let's do some studies on how people not die. It's like, that's the guy who's going to die.

[25:47] Michael: Well, I think I'm shrinking time frames into like a small Like, I'm talking about, like, over time. This is like. Like, as a human race, as we learn from generation to generation, like, this is stuff like that. It's passed on. So the whole idea of, like, genes and memes, it's like you're passing your genes on, you're passing your memes on. And so each generation has to deal with the memes of the. Of the generation before, and hopefully the generations before that. You start distilling these memes into more and more useful things. So it's like there's this pattern that starts to develop. And so in this developing pattern is kind of where I'm getting to this. It's not like just like, everyone's killing each other, guys, hey, let's be friends. So much better. It's like. It's like. Well, like, because you see this in the Old Testament too. It's like. And just in cultures, all throughout that time frame, it was like. It was like killing a whole nother people group was the thing you do back then, because there was no. There was no reasoning with them, you know, but you saw, like. But you see over time that there's like, that still. That still exists, but it's like there's. There's this whole other thing that's starting to, like, kind of like, show itself. And that's kind of, I think, of like, as these memes move into the future, it becomes more and more enticing because you're seeing the relevancy and the. The power of those memes being worked out and how productive those societies are. Like, I mean, like, you look at the west and. And those principles, it's like, that's a lot more enticing to live in that environment than the principles of maybe South Africa or even Europe right now or whatever. It's like there's a reason why people are moving to the United States. And I would say again that it's because we've been the best at distilling the memes into more. More potent, a more potent substance. And so that you get to a point where, like, hey, monogamy actually is the best relationship. Because it's like most kids that have a father and mother in the home, or specifically a father, commit less crimes. Like, that's just the fact, you know, so it's like, you see? So even now, we can even distill those memes into more and more meaningful statements.

[28:06] Matt: But why. Why should committing less crimes be desirable?

[28:13] Michael: Well, I mean, as a business owner, I. I would. I would prefer people commit less crimes so that my business doesn't get, you know, it makes it easier to trade with people if there's like a, if there's a, some sort of like, ethics that we follow and agree to. So like, I would be interested in, in that world. And then, you know, then you sort of like start to have. Formulate people around you that, that agree to those principles because it does seem more beneficial.

[28:49] Matt: Have, have you lost the proposition of the exploration, which is that how would things go if we get rid of God?

[28:58] Michael: Well, I'm, I'm not even there yet. I'm just talking about, like, what does the world look like?

[29:01] Matt: Are you suggesting that we could build up the set of principles in the west without God? That those principles are obviously desirable in and of themselves?

[29:17] Michael: Yes. Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

[29:22] Matt: Okay. That seems like a shaky proposition to me.

[29:28] Michael: Well, to me it's just factually and evidently true as far as, like, like I can look at, see, like, you know, if I treat people a certain way, then, you know, there's a. There's a result that's actually desirable, you know, and, and then if you treat people a different way, it's like you kind of are. You kind of are in a lonely place. You know, if you take advantage of everyone, say at some point you have to actually move in order to take advantage of somebody else because you'll have a reputation for being dishonest and. Greedy or whatever it might be. Because it's interesting too, because you also see this within thieves too. It's like all the great thieves have a certain sort of code of ethics.

[30:21] Matt: Well, I was going to ask you think of yourself as a mobster in 1920s New York. Like, you're not adhering to any of these principles. Why is that? Yeah, I mean, I imagine that most people who are mobsters would say they're perfectly happy being mobsters. Right. So why can't they see the obvious goodness of these principles?

[30:45] Michael: Well, I think that's the beautiful thing about this is because the principles that mobsters lived with were actually beneficial in a certain, in a certain time frame. You know, because like, like when you don't have the rule of law and there's, and there's a lot of sort of warring fra factions. It's like, like mobster mentality is actually useful because it allows for people to come under the protection of somebody because there's other, there's other mobs that, that are also after your things, you know, but if you have like a law that's greater than Those individual mobs, then it's sort of like they actually have to answer to something higher. So that's like. It's like the refining of the meme. You know, it's like the mobster meme was useful in a certain time and in a certain situation and actually could also be reverted back to at some points. But, but if, but if, like, you know, if I were to look at it from like, a logical perspective, it's like, okay, no, I can see and understand that at certain times a mob type of authority is actually helpful and useful. However, that doesn't work so much right now in our society.

[32:09] Matt: So you're saying that without the rule of law, or maybe without the strong rule of law, that forming mobs is useful, and then once there is a strong rule of law, then the mobs are no longer needed because they're subordinate to something higher totally. But what you've just done is you've created a new, stronger mob, a mob that is stronger than all of them. You've outsourced all of that mob violence to the state. Now we just, in a fractal kind of way, say it's the exact same situation. So now the state being the mob is useful, but at some point, the state has to then become subordinate to something else.

[33:09] Michael: You know, I think that's the part is like, that's the, that's the whole idea behind, like, refining the meme, you know, because, like, what's going to happen, and I think that's the part we see is like, is like, if you, if you give the state or the nation sort of like the rule of force, it's like at some point it's going to deteriorate into something that is abusive. You know, at some, at one point it's freeing, and at some point it will become abusive, and then it will need to be refined again. And so I think that's. I think that's why, like, in the United States, we have this sort of, like, we have a supposedly small federal government and a strong state government was to kind of like, like, help with that tension, you know, and so I think that's. I think that's part of the whole idea of refining the memes. It's not the mean. That doesn't mean that we'll continue, like, we're inevitably going to continue to refine the meme. It just means that if you look at the. The progress of history that, that we have, it's in our best interest to refine the memes. You know, I can. I can't even think like, like going back towards like a socialism or something like that. It's like, or even reliving a communist type thing is like, guys, we don't want to do that. We've done that experiment.

[34:39] Matt: I mean, there's something that doesn't make sense to me though because. I think that the majority of people who would consider themselves atheists in the west live inside the group of people that would also be loudly proclaiming to defund the police or to stop enforcing laws, that enforcing the law is violence that shouldn't be done, that criminals should be treated better than other people.

[35:18] Michael: Well, I mean there's tons of Christians in that, in all that same viewpoint, you know. So I don't think it has to do with an atheist or a Christian. It's just like you have a faulty programming.

[35:31] Matt: Okay. Either way, you're suggesting that there's a natural process of refining the memes that happens because it's obviously in everybody's best interest. But given some of the things we just laid out about mobs and rule of law, I think, well, why isn't that happening in the West?

[35:54] Michael: I think it is.

[35:55] Matt: It doesn't seem like the memes are being refined. It seems like they're being reverted.

[36:00] Michael: Well, I think that's the hard thing is it's not like a straight line. It's sort of like bitcoin. It goes up and down, up and down, it crashes, it goes up and down. But it's like it's, it's, it is still a choice. Like we have a choice to do this. And I think that's part of like, well, you know, what makes us human and so beautiful is that it's like, like we can, we can have, we can have a choice to. And choose to build towards something better, you know, And I think that's the part because it doesn't really matter if you're thinking on scale or like in the, and the minutia, you know, it's like how you run your family versus like how you run a nation. There's things that change at different levels of people group, but the principles are basically the same as far as we just talked about. Like it's better for a mom and a dad to be in the house with their kids. And this is a recent example and that they would most likely their kids will have less likely to go to prison or to commit a crime. So I think that's the part. So it's like whether you're talking about

[37:05] Matt: the macro micro, what I'm Having a hard time taking for granted is that you can make any claim about better if you no longer have the concept of truth and love.

[37:17] Michael: Well, I mean, not dying is a good thing. Like, if I can keep my kids from committing crime.

[37:22] Matt: I mean, that's another one that I think it's really hard to take that for granted. Or you have. It's hard to take that for granted. I mean, look around in the world at things that are happening. I think the number one cause of death in Canada right now is assisted suicide. Not only have they stopped taking it for granted that it's better to live than die, they've actually said, no, it's a lot of times it's better to die. The people are saying, I want to die, and the government is saying, we'll help you with that. So what is that? Why do we not there find that what we take for granted is a natural, an obvious natural inclination, and we find that flipped on its head in 2026.

[38:10] Michael: Yeah.

[38:10] Matt: In a western country. What accounts for that?

[38:14] Michael: Well, I mean, I think that's the whole. That's the whole part of like, you know, when you don't. When you don't learn from the past and you don't refine the memes, it leads to despair. I mean, you know, whenever, you know, having a career over, having children is, Is. Is. Is raised up above, like, moving your genes into the future. It's like, I think that has an impact on, on society, on communities, when you don't value the next generation.

[38:49] Matt: But there's a lot of people saying that, that there's no problem with that.

[38:53] Michael: There's no problem with what?

[38:55] Matt: With not valuing the next generation.

[38:57] Michael: Well, I'm just saying, like, you're kind of making my point for, for me is like, Is like. Is like by that way of thinking leads to death. And so it's like, that's fine. You know, it's like I just. It just kind of looking at it from the outside perspective is like, oh, if you take on that perspective, then, you know, that just leads to death. And it's like, well, I don't want to be a part of that. You know, it's like, I want the part that leads to life, you know, and I want to be a part of both people that are interested in life and how can life be more full? And so when I think of that, it's like, it's like societies that value families and children and the next generation tend to be more successful and more fulfilling societies in general, you know, so it's like, to me that's just like, that's just an empirical, that's empirical evidence. Not. And then the, the suicide thing is like, that just makes sense because you don't, you don't, you can't see the future. You don't have any reason to move into the future. You're not invested in the future.

[39:59] Matt: What makes sense? You said the suicide thing makes sense.

[40:03] Michael: Yeah, it makes sense. Like if you're not invested in the future, it's like, well, what is it that I want for now? It's like if I'm invested in the future, it's like, well, I'm more invested in wanting to understand like how to make this world a better place for my kids and my kids kids. And some of that has to do with okay, why do you stick around and like, you know, help my kids with schoolwork or you know, have a, have a good job to like, you know, provide for them and. You know, and just kind of at least provide an environment that actually allows, that allows that sort of prospering for my kids. And it's like, and when you can see it happen empirically, like it's not that everyone will, that will happen for everyone, but you have a greater chance of that happening for you if you do certain things. I love this.

[41:06] Matt: I mean, what is prosperous?

[41:14] Michael: Well, see this, I, I, I, I kind of why I'm, I'm being so stringent on arguing the way that I'm doing is because, because you actually do come to a stalemate, like you cannot prove God's existence. I feel like I can actually make an argument that the refining of memes from generation to generation actually shows us that that is a good thing. Now I can take advantage of that and disassemble that, but that won't last very long. It's a very short term, A short term game. You know, game theory is if I try to, if I try to short circuit that, you know, take advantage of it or something like that. So it's like I like again, it's like I never think you can actually prove the existence of God. Of God, you know. Well, but I thought we were at

[42:11] Matt: work on some, a different project in, right at this point in the conversation, which is to make, to imagine the way things would be if you got rid of God.

[42:21] Michael: Yeah. And I think that's, that's, that's.

[42:22] Matt: And so I'm saying without God and I'm substituting truth and love because that's the definition at least I'm currently using for God. I don't understand how you can come up with a definition for the word prosperous. Well, I think without truth in love.

[42:39] Michael: Well, I mean, prosperous was. Would it be like, like a society that is benefiting into the future? As far as, like, that's not suicidal. Like to me, that's prosperous. Like a society that's suicidal is not prosperous. I think that's like the actual. That's like the opposite of prosperous.

[43:05] Matt: Yes. And so Gad said, I think just like yesterday, he, he wrote a new book called Suicidal Empathy.

[43:14] Michael: Oh yeah.

[43:15] Matt: Which I'm sure you've heard that term being batted around. I think you're right. I think the opposite of prosperous is suicidal. And I would make the claim that we find ourselves in living in suicidal societies. Whether it's literally suicide of individuals in Canada or it is civilizational or societal suicide through mass unchecked immigration, through monetary inflation, through the debasement of sort of core load bearing concepts like what is a man, what is a woman. I think these are all suicidal. I mean, they become suicidal in one case. It's like Canada is helping people kill themselves. The United States has been helping sterilize young women, primarily through the transgender movement, though. That's suicide of their gene line. Okay. The willingness, it's willful. That's what makes it suicidal. And so if there were some natural refining of memes that create, that tended towards prosper. Prosperity. Prosperity.

[44:43] Michael: That's awesome.

[44:44] Matt: I was like, there's more to that word. There's some more letters in there at the end that naturally tend towards prosperity. Well, I think we're seeing the opposite of that in many dimensions. I would also argue the case that things naturally fall apart. They don't naturally become more ordered. The universe is entropic, the energy is dissipating. All things are this way. It takes intent to hold things together. Now back to the idea of prosperous. I think you're taking for granted that. Well, you say, I want to leave a better world for my kids. How can I come up with a definition of better without truth and love? Why would I care to do it? Why would I care to have kids? Why would I care what happens to my kids? I'm going to be dead anyway. And we've gotten rid of the concept of God. And so once I'm dead, who cares? Right? What do I care what my kids think when I'm nothing, Right. And why would I want to.

[46:03] Michael: Why?

[46:03] Matt: You said something earlier about playing short term games versus long term games if I'm inevitably going to be annihilated my consciousness turned off. Aren't we all pursuing that all the time with distraction, whether it's through Instagram or booze or drugs or all kinds of things. I want to turn this thing off because it fucking hurts. Right. Why would I want to play a long term game? Why would I not want the game to be short term? Experience as much comfort, happiness, ecstasy, whatever as I can possibly find and shut the lights off without God, without truth and love. I don't think that there's a case to be made for that. And I think that you find yourself in a sort of hedonistic nihilism that ends in so much despair that you start asking for suicide. You start seeing people make claims like, why would I bring a child into this world? It's a terrible place. These are the most, the richest, most prosperous, prosperous people who have ever lived in. The richest, most prosperous place in history on the planet. Okay.

[47:33] Michael: Yeah.

[47:34] Matt: And they're saying this place is so bad, I don't want to bring kids into it.

[47:37] Michael: Yeah.

[47:38] Matt: Why would you expect to find that there? If there is some natural process by which the memes refine and improve?

[47:49] Michael: Well, I think that's part of the refining of the memes is that you're going to have pushback. And that pushback actually shows you the value or truth. And again, just to stick with my current exposition on this is truth as in a small T as far as, well, we see whenever people react against this, this is the way our society goes, and the meme starts to actually die and it leads towards suicide. It's like, well, okay, well then that just means non existence for the human species. Like it's a nihilism. Yeah, exactly. And, and, but there's something, there's something about whenever you do have a child, it's very. Whether it's a wolf or, you know, a lion or whatever, that there's something that kicks in that says like, hey, I need to protect this thing, I need to feed this thing. I need to. And how can I do that?

[49:00] Matt: That is what could be called an instinct, which is afforded to some animals, humans included.

[49:07] Michael: Yeah.

[49:07] Matt: It isn't afforded to all.

[49:09] Michael: Well, most. I mean, I think, I think.

[49:11] Matt: I don't know about that.

[49:13] Michael: I mean, as you go further down the animal kingdom chain or whatever, it does become less and less.

[49:19] Matt: But it's like in that sense, it might be that most of the organisms that have ever lived have had nothing to do with their offspring.

[49:27] Michael: Yeah. But those also tend to be less consequential or impactful on the World. I mean, the more consciousness of the

[49:34] Matt: most deadly animal on the planet is a mosquito. So, you know, what do you know about impact?

[49:44] Michael: Yeah, but I don't know if I can go down that road. It's just there's no consciousness in the, in a mosquito or very little.

[49:51] Matt: I mean that's a, I think that's a perfectly valid distinction. And I would say there's very little consciousness in the animal kingdom.

[50:03] Michael: Well, I think there's varied degrees. Like, and I think that's the part like, when you look at it, it's like, oh, wow. It's like as, as the degree of consciousness evolves, you start to see like, like a higher understanding of the world and their place in the world is developed. And so I think that's, that's the part where we, I think when we, when we de. Evolve, we start to be suicidal. But if we continue to evolve, then we become more life focused.

[50:41] Matt: Why would we become more life focused?

[50:44] Michael: Because that is, that, that's, that leads to prosperous.

[50:47] Matt: It seems like without truth and love, consciousness would make you more death focused than life focused. I mean, for example. Okay, let's just for the sake of the argument, take for granted that it is good to propagate the species.

[51:08] Michael: Yeah,

[51:12] Matt: okay, let's say that's self evident. I don't think it is. But let's say that, yeah, the next question might be, well, how do we do that? But remember, in the world that we're exploring here, there's no truth. And so there's no way for me to ask how might we ensure the propagation of the species? Because that question presupposes that there is a better way and a worse way, that the answer to that question is intelligible to me. I can pursue the question and find an answer. And maybe it's trial and error. Maybe I try this. I see, it doesn't work. Okay, that didn't work. Let's try something else. But again, we have a goal that we're taking for granted as being arbitrarily obvious. But without truth, I can't pursue that goal. And without love, there isn't any reason to do it. Because already to say it is good for the species to propagate, that is to say, I'm willing the good of another, of another generation. But that's love. And we're trying to explore the world without love. And so there isn't any impetus for me to one, start with a presumption of good in the first place, or two, pursue that good in any meaningful way. And so I'm left with either randomness. Things just are the way that they are. I have no control over them. And so I'm just going to kind of sit back and take the ride for what it is. I might say enjoy the ride, but I'm not even sure how to come up with a definition for enjoyment if we don't have truth and love. So I might define enjoyment as the cessation of pain, the avoidance of pain. But we're living in a world in which, a hypothetical world, in which it seems to me like pain is only going to increase. And the only way to decrease your own pain is to preemptively inflict it on someone else to prevent them, to protect yourself against the world which is kind of constantly trying to kill you, whether you realize it or not. It's like we were just out in Big Bend two weeks ago, and you're reminded when you're out there in the desert and it's 106 degrees, you get out of your car and you're like, if I right now lock my keys in my car, how long would it take before I die? Like six hours?

[53:51] Michael: Yeah.

[53:53] Matt: A day. You know, whether it's like a rattlesnake, a mountain lion, dehydration, or more likely dehydration, severe sun sickness. And even if I do make it to sundown, it's likely going to get cold enough that that gets. Going to really damage me. So we live in a world where nature is trying to kill us. And apart from civilization, which is to say the outsourcing of violence, which is to say, subjecting ourselves to the authority of a larger mob under whose authority we benefit from things like protection, like social contracts where I can leave my home and I'm almost never worried that I'm going to come back to find it being occupied by someone else. Right. But if you live in that world where you don't have that state, you better become the leanest, meanest monster you can become, because there isn't another good option for you. And that's something akin more to the way that the animal kingdom behaves than the way that humans behave.

[55:12] Michael: Yeah.

[55:13] Matt: Because the animal kingdom, for the most part, with some arguable exceptions, like maybe elephants and dolphins, They do live in these very tribal kill or be killed, eat or be eaten. That's what life is.

[55:33] Michael: Yeah. Submit or be the king.

[55:36] Matt: Right. And so everything kind of becomes about instinct. It doesn't become about, oh, I want, you know, I don't think that, you know, your dog is not trying to think about how to make the world a better place for his offspring. Your dog has the instinct to reproduce, but the dog doesn't have much of an instinct for thinking about the way that the world is. The dog is the victim of its circumstances. And you might say, well, the dog is the cultivated bred version that humans created. Okay, we'll go back to the wolf. I don't think the wolf is thinking about future generations. The wolf is thinking about its next meal. The wolf mother has some instinct to protect her cubs. But interestingly enough, even in other mammals where you would expect to find that instinct, you find something quite different. And especially given certain circumstances, a lot of rodents, and presumably some smaller mammals as well, will eat their offspring in the right circumstance, whether that be because they prioritize their own needs above their offspring or because of some social dynamic with the male in the situation. So I feel like I've diverted quite a bit. But I would like to return to this idea that without truth and love, it's very difficult to justify anything. It's very difficult to justify that one thing is better than another. And Dostoevsky's remark on this is that if there is no God, everything must be permitable, permissible, actually, I think is how he says it. I mean, I'm sure he said it in Russian. I don't know that word, but I think I can start to see why that is. Because, well, how, you know, it's all well and good that you perchance happen to think that living longer is better than living shorter. But that's just your preference, right? I have a different preference. And there's no reason or way for me to say that mine is better than yours because there is no possible goal that could be shared. Now the state might arbitrarily impose your perspective on me and say, you either live under this perspective or we will punish you such that your main motivator, which is pain cessation, will incentivize you to adopt a new perspective. And how is that any different than what we might otherwise call torture? I mean, what is it that was going on in Guantanamo Bay? It's like you're going to adopt our perspective, you're going to tell us what we want to know, or we will make you so miserable that you will do it to make the misery stop.

[58:34] Michael: Yeah, I think those are, I mean, I think those are all just examples of working towards a more prosperous society. And, and I think you kind of ran through like there's all these experiments that we do along the way and people have different values. And, and, and I think that, that we're just as susceptible to not follow what is, you know, would make a prosperous world. And as we would be to just say, I'm looking out for my own and I'm. That's all I'm going to do. It's like, it's like there's just, just kind of like to me, it just logically leads to certain outcomes that, you know, if you're willing to accept those outcomes, then all right, have at it. You know, it's like. But I thought that's something. It's a war of, a war of ideas, a war of memes. And, you know, part of what you're doing is hopefully working towards those. The one that's the best will come out on top, you know, and if not, then we just destroy our species.

[59:46] Matt: Well, but who's to say that that isn't the best idea?

[59:50] Michael: It doesn't matter about best. It's just like. It's just like there is no human species, so it's like it doesn't matter.

[59:56] Matt: Well, but you're setting up a game in which we're saying, I mean, this is the fitness argument, right? In natural selection, it's like the most fit will. Yeah, well, that's the ultimate judge. Fitness is the judge. Okay, so if we're living in a world without God and in a world without truth and love, and the only way to mitigate or. What's the word I'm looking for? Arbitrate?

[60:28] Michael: I don't know.

[60:30] Matt: To settle an argument is to have a battle of ideas and they flesh themselves out however they do. You could say the Cold War was a battle of two ideas, two big ideas. War that we didn't actually have to fight because the worse idea self extinguished. But if that's the world we live in and it turns out that our species ends, well, then the argument would be then it should have ended because that's what's best according to fitness. Right. But again, you have to have that according to in order to make that statement, because I think it would seem so painfully obvious that it's not best for the species to go extinct. This is why you have very prominent atheists like Eric Weinstein going on podcast after podcast saying we have to defeat Einstein, we have to get outside of relativity, we have to solve this problem, we have to disperse to other habitable planets because we are living in an impossible situation. After the 1950s and the discovery of the atomic bomb and the discovering of the double helix in the DNA. He talks about the. What does he call it? The two nuclei. So, yeah, you have to have the according to. And I think the question then becomes, well, what is the ultimate according to?

[62:06] Michael: Yeah,

[62:08] Matt: we prosper according to what we. We deem something best. According to what?

[62:16] Michael: Well, so this is. So maybe now I'll head back the other direction now because. Because this is the problem I have with the line of thinking that I've been kind of proposing all the way up to this point. Makes a lot of sense to me. However, there's this caveat there. Like, what has been the driver behind a lot of what we think of as prosperous? Or like, you're talking about truth and love or something like that. It's like, without a doubt, it's Judeo Christian values that have driven what we would say. Well, it's. Okay, so Eric Weinstein would say, like, okay, this is a useful fiction. Okay, cool. Okay, here's these ideas that kind of lead to a more prosperous world. Okay, we start dividing.

[63:03] Matt: Brett would say it's metaphorically true, if not literally true.

[63:06] Michael: Yeah. And so you can start. Kind of start to jump on board with that because if you look at most other worldviews and stuff like that, there's some lead to more like a suicidal culture or it's like valuing things in an irrational way or something like that. But. And again, I'm trying not to jump too far ahead, but I kind of want to just to kind of get into this part of it. But, you know, it's like, you can kind of see how, like, Judeo Christian values have kind of driven this sort of what the US Is today, you know, with all that's good and bad. It doesn't. I'm trying not to. Like, it's not that those values have been expressed perfectly, but it's sort of like the. Those memes have been pushed into the future and refined. And refined. And refined based on a certain worldview. And we're still in the process of refining those worldviews. So then the question is, is there something real behind those Judeo Christian values? And I think that's kind of like where you're coming from, or I'm too. But, like, what you're kind of making your point is like, there's actually something there where I think you can kind of get. You can kind of get to this point with the same idea of, like, memes being. Being. Oh, shoot. Revised over time. And I think that that's the part that I can't get away from is like, the way Those memes have been revised most efficiently is through that lens. You know, whether it's slavery being ended by. Through Judeo Christian values or, you know, the, the existence of the United States, the way, the way they see the family, you know, so it's like. So then you have to like, start. I think that's where the real struggle comes in is like. And that's kind of what I think what you're saying is there's actually something behind that. There's a high, There's. There's something higher that is above that, that drives that reality. It's not just that we're both discovering it and there's something behind it, if that makes sense. So it's like you can almost still. I can still, I can still hear the person making that. That argument of this is just the refining of memes throughout history. And there's something valuable in that. And you say, oh, because there's a God behind that. And like, I don't need God for that. I don't think you can actually logically go that direction. But it doesn't mean. But the reason is it still exists, if that makes sense. Whether you believe in God or not. If you just follow that trajectory as if God existed, you see something there. But I don't think you can actually arrive there without actually having that viewpoint that there is a God. That make sense? Well, I mean, like, I mean, just, just thinking about like a, A society that says like, you know, love your neighbor as yourself or do not murder. You know, like there's going to lead to a certain amount of prosperity if you just follow the law.

[66:30] Matt: Okay.

[66:31] Michael: You know, it's like. And that's kind of like, you know, so there's a certain amount of prosperity that, that comes from just following the law. Like there's. Some people would call it natural law or something like that. And I think that's because it's built into the fabric of the universe. However, you do not achieve sort of that prosperity without understanding what the law is pointing to. And I feel like that's the argument that you're saying and that I'm also saying too, but not in the way I'm arguing right now. But I do want to leave a space open because it's like to me, it's perfectly understanding and understandable for me why people would not believe in God because there's actually things built into the fabric of the universe by. If you just follow those things, you're going to receive a certain amount of prosperity. And a lot of people would Say that. Well, it just is because it's part of the evolution of humankind and benefits and consequences. And I want to have more benefits than I do consequences.

[67:49] Matt: Well, maybe we should take the exit grant, try to figure out how to wrap this one up. Because my response to that is I think the only way to know when something is a benefit or a consequence is to submit to truth and love. Because it's very difficult to come up with a definition for the word benefit. It's also very difficult to come up with the definition for the word consequence. It's like. When medicion Gad. You had to replace the floor. It's like, was that a benefit or a consequence?

[68:36] Michael: Yes.

[68:37] Matt: Right. But you only know that. Because you have submitted to the idea that there is truth and that truth serves love and that love is good, and you trust that that's true, even when in the circumstance it looks like the opposite. And you live that out, you participate in that, and you see this glorious story unfold that changes you, changes your heart. And I know this because you've told me the story many times and we don't have to get into it here, but, um, I think you. That is a good story to be told. It's a good story to live. And within it, you don't have to bother with definitions for things like benefits and consequences or what does it mean to be prosperous. There is one ultimate definition, which is that which serves love. And you said earlier, you said something. About how you can see some games play out and you can see that some games end in death and some end in life. And I want the life. I want to go on that path. I find it very interesting that Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. You want to be on life team. I'm not team.

[70:25] Michael: So this is the greatest thing about this is like, Because I think that's. That's the most difficult thing, because when you live, especially when you live in a society that kind of has that sort of baked into it, like Jesus is the truth, the way, the life, you know, and you benefit from

[70:50] Matt: that

[70:51] Michael: embedded into your society. It's like you don't know what the consequences of if you remove that part.

[71:01] Matt: Well, let's try it a different way. I think that if you want life, what it is that you want is God. And you can say, especially living within a society that has benefited greatly from God, I want life, but not God. You try to separate life from God, you're going to end up with. Neither.

[71:30] Michael: Comes back to the quote, we always like to talk about God is dead. And that's not a joyful statement. That's like, what the do we do now?

[71:37] Matt: Who unhooked. Who unhooked the earth from the sun? Yeah, what are you going to do now?

[71:46] Michael: Which is so baffling to me because I mean, like, like it, it makes so much sense to me. Like it, like to me God is very logical and, and kind of like you said, it's like if you get rid of God, it's like, what does all this more to. And I think that's kind of the point that you're making the whole time. It's like, yes, okay, you might be able to sort of benefit in some regard and have an idea, but you don't really understand why or where it's coming from. And I think that's the part that it's like you become unmoored from the central, sort of like the central reference point onto like, why do all these things work? It's because of this. If you don't have that, then everything becomes unmoored.

[72:40] Matt: Yeah.

[72:40] Michael: It's like you don't have an idea of what truth is. You don't have an idea of what love is.

[72:46] Matt: Right.

[72:46] Michael: It becomes an untethered idea. Oh, I love you. Really? What is love? What does it mean to love me? You know, can you actually have a healthy love for me?

[72:59] Matt: I think, especially in the west, we take for granted that. I think the central premise of the west is that all men are created in the image of God. That's the Judeo Christian value on which all of our other values are established. And you may be able to succeed for a while by separating life and God and getting rid of God and say, well, it's just obvious that you should treat others with respect. It's just obvious that you should help your neighbor. It's just obvious that it's better to live than to die. But you've also become unmoored. And I think Nietzsche was the first one who started screaming like, I don't think you understand how far down the disillusion is going to go. It's going to go so far down that you will not be able to establish any values for your yourself whatsoever. Everything that you think is obvious will become no longer obvious.

[74:04] Michael: Yeah.

[74:05] Matt: And you'll have no explanations for it and you'll have no way to even question it or complain about it. You know, it's like, why is it that you don't hear more people saying what the fuck is going on with Canada and Maid and this assisted suicide thing, that this is crazy. And I think that part of the answer to that is, well, you. You have no basis to complain about it. They're doing what they want to do, and every man doing what he wants to do, every woman doing what she wants to do, that's the highest value we can find without God.

[74:40] Michael: Yeah. You know, it's to live your truth.

[74:44] Matt: Right. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you have to kill to do that. You know, whether it's through abortion or through assisted suicide or through sterilization of young people or any number of other methods that are all held up, each one of them actually, as the highest good. The highest good is actually abortion. The highest good is actually transgenderism. The highest good is to put miserable people out of their misery. That right there is an example of how far down the disillusionment goes when you become unmoored. And there isn't any way to stop it except to, I would say to repent and to say, I want life. Where's life? I want as much of it as I can get. Because when I've had tasted good, even when it was painful, even when it hurt, I thought the highest value was comfort. I found that the highest value is life. And to return to that and to say, I'm turning toward life. I'm turning toward truth. I'm turning toward love. That's the way back. But you can't find that way. If you've gotten rid of the truth and the love, you have to accept it. You have to say, I accept truth and love. I submit myself to it. And though it break me, though it kill me, I will stay attached to it. Yes. This is an interesting one.

[76:43] Michael: Well, I think it's been. It's. It's. It's fun because it's like you. You need to push. You need to push the boundaries. Because I think that's the part we just take so much for granted, you know, without acknowledging the source of what we have.

[77:01] Matt: Yeah.

[77:02] Michael: And I think that's the part. You know, those are the things I wrestle with in my head, too, is like, I want to. I want to get rid of God, but I can't, because it's just.

[77:13] Matt: It,

[77:15] Michael: like. It kind of like the whole arguments you were making while I was making that side of the argument, it was just sort of like, it's so much work, you know, it's like. It's like trying to, like, come up with a society. It's like. But then we. But there's something different when you acknowledge something outside of yourself that you're trying to aim towards, and then you. Then you start pointing that way with other people, like there's something, that there's something that's different because you're not trying to justify why your viewpoints are better than somebody else's viewpoints. It's like you're pointing at something else, a reference point. You're saying, hey, look, do you see this? And it's like it's outside of us. It's baked into the fabric of reality.

[78:09] Matt: Your point about it being so much work, it's like, yeah, it's a lot of work to prove to someone else that your idea is better than theirs. It's a lot less work for you both to agree what the perfect idea is and then compare both of your ideas to it. And it's pretty obvious what's what, you know, but. And it's interesting. That's a lot less work. It's something like rest. It's like, ah, I don't have to be God. I can let God be God. I don't have to come up with perfect ideas. I can be creative and say, well, my idea doesn't quite live up. How did it not live up? How can I change that? That's like rest. I can. Stand securely and solidly on that. Whereas if you take away God, there's nothing for me to stand securely and solidly on except for myself. And I've met myself. Well, I wouldn't suggest it.

[79:23] Michael: Even like Jesus was talking about is like they wanted to take him and make them king, but he knew what was inside of them. It's like, no, you don't make me king. That's not the point here. Like, you need to. You need to look like God is your. Is your king. And that's what I'm mirroring to you. And it's like, it's like there's no substitution. You can't. Like there'd be people. There's people that have good ideas and propagate something that is positive in the world. But when you make them king, they become an idol and death follows.

[80:00] Matt: It's like swift death. If we learned a new thing from denarius.

[80:05] Michael: Well, it's like if you. If that's even with the break that kids have to make with their parents, it's like, it's like you are a God to them, but at some point you have to die. You cannot be God. And so it's like. So it's like, I feel like we're always Trying to substitute all these other things for God, and they just become idols. And it will lead to death. You will die a spiritual or emotional or whatever death if you substitute anything other than God for God. It's like whether it's your parents, whether it's the United States, whether it's movie star, whatever it is, it's like your world gets smaller if you substitute anything else. And God is the only thing that if you don't, you can't substitute. The world will not get smaller. It actually gets bigger.

[80:57] Matt: Kind of reminds me a bit of Howard Hughes.

[81:00] Michael: That's a.

[81:04] Matt: Well, the man was like, you know, kind of awesome. And his story ends in him going crazy and locking himself in a room, basically.

[81:16] Michael: Yeah.

[81:18] Matt: You know, his world got smaller and smaller and smaller. Even as his riches grew and his successes grew and his triumphs grew, his mind closed in on him. Now, I don't know anything about his, you know, faith or personal relationship with the idea of God and all that, but I just know that it's possible and probably, you know, probably likely for most of us, if we had our own way.

[81:46] Michael: Well, I, I, I experience all the time. It's like whenever I substitute God for something else, it's like my world does become smaller. And that's, and then that's kind of like that whole idea of repentance is I have to repent. And then whenever I do that, it's like my world gets bigger. Yeah, like, that's not, it's not, it's, it's, it's something nobody can convince me other than because I've experienced that so many times. And it's like I try to follow, like I was trying to make today was just like that. The logical arguments, and I understand why they make sense, but if you substitute anything for God, your world gets smaller. And you see this with the Democratic Party right now. It's like, it's like they're trying to be powerful and, and godlike, but their world keeps getting like. In order to, like, be more powerful, they have to shrink their world more and more and more in order to get that solidity. They can't allow any sort of diversion or.

[82:43] Matt: That's twice.

[82:44] Michael: I know.

[82:45] Matt: Yeah. They have to keep consolidating.

[82:48] Michael: The world has to get smaller in order to keep that power. You know, it's like, because, like, you know, if you, you know, you kind of look at what God does. It's like he's like, he's like, hey, I'm going to let you be if you want me. I'M here. And so there's something about when you have places where that you allow that sort of like enough freedom, you know, with constraint. It's like allow the differing opinions to sort of battle each other out that you will arrive at truth. And that's the whole. That's the whole gambit is we're saying there is something to be known and there is truth. There is truth. So. But we have to allow a environment for that to work itself out because. But it's not just because that's good, it's because there actually is truth. And the only way we can get to that truth is by having an environment where that can work itself out. And it doesn't look pretty all the time, but it comes with like. You cannot have that environment without having an exterior or external truth.

[83:48] Matt: Right.

[83:49] Michael: If not, then the truth has to come from the top down.

[83:52] Matt: Right.

[83:55] Michael: Anyways. All right, let's leave it there.

[83:57] Matt: Cheers again.

[83:57] Michael: Cheers. Love you guys.

[83:58] Matt: Love you out there. Thanks for coming along.

[84:00] Michael: Oh, yeah.