Over My Dead Body

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Okay, I think we're here. Ready?

[0:25] Michael: All right. Just like this is going to be low hanging fruit here. I'm going to be like,

[0:31] Matt: Michael showed up, up unprepared tonight.

[0:33] Michael: I know, man. It's like after almost 300 episodes, I just totally forgot my mic and. Yeah. My headphones and my underwear.

[0:40] Matt: So those of you who are familiar with the sound of Michael's voice through the podcast, you might sound a little different tonight. I might sound a little bit different tonight. I don't know what it is, but could you talk in a totally new voice accent, please?

[0:51] Michael: Oh, yes. Okay.

[0:52] Matt: Please.

[0:53] Michael: Great strike over Michael Jackson.

[0:55] Matt: But hey, that was kind of. It's like Michael Jackson, Mickey Mouse.

[0:58] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[0:59] Matt: To the shores.

[1:00] Michael: To the Shores,

[1:03] Matt: episode 281. Not quite to 300, but that's a lot of episodes.

[1:07] Michael: A lot of episodes. A lot of talking. Yeah. A lot of learning.

[1:11] Matt: I know. So how's it going?

[1:16] Michael: Good. I found it quite interesting. I feel like probably about a month or two ago, like you and I dived off the deep and into some more like theological questions.

[1:27] Matt: I noticed that we've really been in that space for a while and it's

[1:31] Michael: kind of funny because I'm actually really excited to explore some theological or theological adjacent topics.

[1:41] Matt: Why do you think that is that we have been in that space on the podcast, maybe, specifically?

[1:48] Michael: Yeah, Well, I think it kind of hits more of some natural rhythms. I think sometimes we'll kind of have more maybe political takes and working through issues that are social issues and then kind of move into more philosophical and metaphysics, epistemology. And then we kind of always danced around some theological stuff, but I don't think we've ever really jumped all the way into it because I think that's how you and I's conversations naturally are. We kind of pop around to like a lot of different subjects right now. It just feels like there's some relevant questions that you and I both are talking about and now we just start doing it on the podcast.

[2:31] Matt: Yeah, I'm here for it. Let's do it.

[2:33] Michael: Totally.

[2:34] Matt: At the end of last week's discussion. Well, last week's episode title was Turtles all the way down, which I think is actually kind of another reason why we might be spending more time in our conversations on theological topics. Because it seems like we just. The more you pursue something, the deeper it tends to go and you sort of end up in those deep theological questions. If you Pursue them? Yeah, you almost. You can get there from any starting point, it seems. So last week, toward the end of the episode, we arrived, we kind of cut the conversation off when we came to this question of Jesus Christ's death and whether or not he had to do that or he had to die, which, you know, kind of brings up a couple of adjacent questions. And we thought we'd start tonight's discussion wrestling with that question for a little bit.

[3:30] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[3:31] Matt: See where that goes.

[3:37] Michael: Yeah, it kind of going back to. It leads into what we're talking about. But I feel like there's like a sort of an honesty that you have to have if you're pursuing truth or what is reality. And it always, like we said plenty of times, it's like it kind of ends in a theological conversation. And I think some people are afraid, are afraid of having that conversation because it means that they have to believe in some God, rather than it being the result of pursuing the logical conclusion of your thought process. You know, sort of like, oh, well, I'm not religious. It's like, ah, it's not about being religious, you know, it's about pursuing truth. And it's like, you know, if. What's the foundation of the direction that you're heading? You know, it's like. Because at some point you kind of see people back off and be like, oh, well, we just kind of know what's right.

[4:38] Matt: I mean, there's many things that are like that though, right? It's not just when the topic of God comes up that people might back off. You know, you saw a lot of that happening with COVID and then with the vaccines. It's like if you pursue a line of questioning that, you know, goes against the narrative that was so deeply installed in people. They organize their life around it. And if you go pursue a line of questioning, I don't mean like questioning a person, but just in the discussion, you're asking each other questions. I mean, that's. I think that's what a conversation is. You're pursuing a line of questioning and you start to reach a point where you're like, okay, if we continue down this road, the whole thing I've built my life around might be in danger. And am I willing to give up the thing that's keeping my life together?

[5:28] Michael: Totally.

[5:28] Matt: You know what I mean? Like, when people first stopped wearing masks, I was one of the very first ones. And it made people very uncomfortable. They didn't want to stop because they had adopted a sense of safety out of that, that they didn't want to let go of. And I understand why. If you have something that you feel like is making you safe, why would you want to let go of it? I think it's similar when it comes to topics of God. It's like, well, do I want to really consider these questions about God? Because I've seemed to have my life pretty well under control.

[6:08] Michael: Yeah.

[6:09] Matt: You know, we were talking closer to around Easter, and I think I said this to you. I don't know if it was on the podcast or not, but it's interesting because it seems to me like the way we culturally celebrate Easter. To me it's just kind of like it's nothing like the way we celebrate Christmas or the way we celebrate Thanksgiving. Like, it's a little bit more passing. And you know, I think you pointed out that that's different in different religious communities and. Okay, but I said, you know, if. If what is claimed to have happened, happened, it is, and Jesus was who he said he was, that day is probably the most important thing, the most interesting thing that has ever happened in history. And I don't think we treat it with that sort of interest.

[7:02] Michael: Oh, that's fascinating. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I don't do that either.

[7:07] Matt: Yeah, well, partly. I think it's because it's so mysterious. It's like, what the hell happened? And I think that's the basis of our question. And I. It's like, okay, was Jesus who he said he was? If he was, and the historical account is accurate, which I think that's more agreed upon in non religious communities than almost any other ancient fact claim. There's more corroboration for that and more evidence for that than there is for almost any other ancient document that exists. Okay. So it's pretty likely that it did happen. And if he was who he said he was and that happened, well, what does that mean? And it brings up all kinds of questions like, well, did that have to happen? If it did happen, why did it happen? What did it accomplish, and what does that mean to us now? And I think there's all kinds of really interesting answers to that.

[8:10] Michael: Totally.

[8:12] Matt: For example, it's like when you're talking about not wanting to pursue lines of questioning about COVID or maybe not to pursue lines of questioning around the vaccine. It's hard to pursue lines of questioning around something like transgenderism once you have accepted and sort of installed that into your life. Especially for someone who, a parent, let's say, who transitions or goes along with the transition of their Child. There's this woman online, she's English, and she was making this point that those are the people who will absolutely never go back on the transgender thing because they can't, you know, for them to be presented with evidence that would possibly change their mind that that was a good thing to do, they will never look at it. They will never accept it. Because to accept that would mean they also have to accept that they did or went along with the most terrible thing you could do to a child, which is to rob them of their reproductive health, rob them of their ability to experience sex, sexual pleasure. So in order to not look at that, they will never allow the decision they made to be questioned. I think there's something similar with this question of Jesus Christ. If he was who he said he was and he died, what does that mean for me? What is it that I have to sort of let go of? And one interesting answer seems to be in the New Testament. Well, yourself, those who will save their life will lose it. What does that mean? I don't know exactly, but.

[9:45] Michael: Well, I think it's a question that plagues everyone because even, like. Because we're talking about, you know, certain dogmas that you take on as truth, and anytime those dogmas are challenged, like, that's a really difficult thing because you. If you base your life around a certain way of seeing things, and somebody comes along and challenges that, you know, how do you respond to that? And probably, I mean, you know, it's like protecting your house. It's like, whoa, hold on. This is how. This is how the world is. And. And I think that it is a scary thing for someone to be challenged on. I mean, for me, too, you know, there's certain things that I believe that are probably standing on, you know, shaky ground. You know, I would hope that I would be able to, like, let those go and let them be challenged, but I can't say that that's always true.

[10:38] Matt: Right.

[10:39] Michael: You know, so I think that's. So it's like, it's not just you end up at God and. Or all the way to Jesus, and you're like, okay, now I've got this. It's like, no, it's like you're always setting up this house of cards that needs to be tested and, you know, continuously refined. Continuously refined. Yeah. And, like, dogma's fine. It does have its place, but it can't be. It can't become an idol itself. Like, you know, I think that's. That's the part that we always have to be careful of is. So I think in this part, like, kind of in the topic that we're discussing right now is I kind of want to just. I kind of want to challenge it from a lot of different directions because, like, there's. There's a lot of things I hear people say, like why Jesus died and had to die and. And rise from the dead. That, you know, there might be parts I accept and there's parts that I don't understand and parts that I disagree with, you know, and I don't really know why on those parts, you know, like.

[11:42] Matt: Well, we want to. Do you want to start with sort of a basic answer to that question and see if we can build from there? What do you think is a common answer to that question?

[11:50] Michael: Well, I think, like, the. I think the common answer is like, you know, Jesus died for our sins and overcame sin by being risen from the dead. And that's sort of like, into the new life. And he's the first to have done that. He's the new Adam, as it's kind of called. And I think maybe Paul talks about it, so it's kind of like he's kind of the first representation. And sort of like, so now is sort of. We live our life in the promise of that renewal. Um, but it doesn't happen. It happens spiritually here, but it happens fully after we've passed on and gone to heaven. That might be too crude of a explanation or simple, but that's. I feel like that's kind of mostly the basis of it. Like, the ramifications of, like, him dying. Like, was it that there was a metaphysical, like, removing a gene from your. From your chroma, you know, from your genetic makeup, you know, the sin gene or something like that, you know?

[12:58] Matt: No, I mean, seems again, I'm just

[13:00] Michael: like, I'm being kind of ridiculous.

[13:02] Matt: But that's because it's not like people stop sinning after Jesus died.

[13:05] Michael: No, but sort of like it. It's sort of like. Or adds like, the. The absolving, you know, like little. I don't know what you. If you add something to your genes. I don't know what that's called.

[13:15] Matt: Oh, I don't know.

[13:17] Michael: So it's like. I don't. I don't. It's like, is it a magical thing? Is it a. A truth statement that when you live in that truth, something. Something changes, you know, like, sort of like when Neo learns that he's not. He's like, oh, is that air you're breathing? He's like, oh, like hey, you're forgiven. Like, oh, that's not air I'm breathing. It sort of wakes you up to a reality that is only present through that sacrifice. You know, I think there's a lot of other. And there's a part of it, too, is you're acknowledging. Just in that whole process, you're acknowledging that you're not what you're supposed to be. Like, you're actually. I think everyone feels that they're called to something greater or bigger and sort of acknowledging that you fall short of that, like, there's something that changes in you. And. And Jesus. Is that sort of, like, aspect of like. Yes, but you're. You're a child of God, you know, like, claiming that on you or something like that. So I don't know. I'm kind of throwing a bunch of stuff out there right now. Like, I don't know how. I mean, I'll. I'll share mine, but like, how do you personally experience or how have you heard it said to you?

[14:45] Matt: Well, also kind of start with the dumb version of it. I don't mean that gets stupid, but just the very simple cliche, right? Like, Jesus died for your sins. It's like, well, what does that mean? And I don't think I, you know, I grew up Christian, going to church for many, many years, and I don't think I ever really heard a good explanation for what that means. And I agree. Something occurred to me somewhat recently that I probably put together from a number of sources, but it was kind of the first meaningful revelation that I had about what it means for God to have become man first of all, and then to die. What's the justification of that? Because you might say, all right, well, I accept that I'm sinful. I keep fucking things up all the time. It's pretty obvious. Nobody can really deny that about themselves. So the predicate is there. It's like, okay, I understand the need, but what's the solution? Why is Jesus dying? Why is God becoming man and then dying? An answer to that question. It's also kind of a bizarre, you know, proposition. Like in the New Testament, when Jesus starts revealing himself, everyone, including the disciples and Rome, for that matter, and the Pharisees, they're like, oh, great, he's going to put together an army and deliver us from our oppressors. What else would God do if he came to the world? You know, like, who is it that would sit down and say, I'm going to write a story about God becoming man and what he's going to do is die. It's like, what is that about? So I think the beginning, seeds of this thought are in an article that I posted on my substack a couple of years ago about Easter. It's very short, but in there I talk about how if you go back to the story of Cain and Abel, Cain runs up against something that I think we're all familiar with, if we're on, if we're honest with ourselves, which is like, why are things not going better for me? I keep putting time and energy in and I'm looking out at the world and everyone else seems to be doing better than me. What the fuck is that? Cain? And this is the first story of real humans in that they're born of another human. And Cain looks at Abel and has that thought. It's like, I'm making all my sacrifices and my sacrifices aren't being received. And Abel's over there, he's got everything that I want, he's got the life that I want, he's doing great. And he goes to God and basically is like, what the fuck, God? And God's like, well, if you had made. If you make better sacrifices, they'll be received. And instead of making better sacrifices, Cain kills Abel. Because there's two things you can do once you establish an ideal to deal with the fact that you don't live up to that ideal. Well, you can either make better sacrifices, which is to say, work harder. It's like, go watch the documentary about Michael Jordan and get it in yourself that he wasn't who he was because he was the most talented guy. He was who he was because he was the hardest working dude and he would get up before everybody else. You know, it's like, oh, there's that. I don't know, I'm using base or basketball analogies, but I think it's Scottie Pippen talking about that where he's like, by the time everybody else gets to the gym, I've already been practicing for three hours. You know, so it's like, you establish an ideal and this could be anything in your life. You know, the kind of person you want to be, the kind of parent you want to be, the kind of business owner or manager or employee or anything. It's like, establish an idea, okay, this is what it would look like and I'm not there. So I either work harder to get to there or I get rid of the ideal. So now I'm not judged by it. I don't see the gap between myself and it anymore. You say, I'm not living up, so I'm just going to get divorced then I don't have to not live up. I'm just sort of self sufficient, right?

[19:11] Michael: Yeah.

[19:12] Matt: Or I'm going to quit basketball, you know, or I'm gonna change my idea of what a good man is, to be looser so it matches who I am and then I won't have this friction point. And so that was done in blood. In the story of Cain and Abel, Cain kills Abel and God comes to Cain and says, where's your brother? And I won't get the story exactly right. But you know, he plays dumb.

[19:42] Michael: I'm not my brother's keeper.

[19:43] Matt: I think he plays dumb. Oh yeah, that's right. I'm not my brother's keeper. How would I know?

[19:46] Michael: Yeah,

[19:48] Matt: and God punishes him by sending him out from the area that he was in. It's sort of another leaving of Garden of Eden in a sense. And he says he commands him not to build cities and to not to be a nomad. And this really angers Cain because now he still doesn't have what he wants and he's mad at God now. You know, it's the rules of the game that are rigged is really the problem. Like God, why would you set up such a bad place? And he disobeys God and ends up his bloodline. It says in the Bible that his bloodline created the first weapons of war and he established cities in disobedience of God. And so you see Cain going off on this sort of like this revenge tour against God because God, God set up a game in which he lost. And I think that there's, you know, that story is very, very short and simple. But I think it is, you know, I see that in my own heart. It's like I'm mad at God. There is something in me that wants revenge on God for making things the way that they are. And it's never really explicit. It's just more of like I can feel. It's like you feel it in your belly, like when you're hungry, you know, it's like a little fire in there. It's like, man, this is unfair. This sucks. I don't understand, you know, as much as I try, even if I try to live the way that the Bible tells me to live, you know, according to faith and with hope, it feels like, yeah, but you promised me peace that passes all understanding. You promised me life and life abundantly. And my life is hurting. I am pissed about that. And rather than say I must Humble myself to the fact that I don't understand what was meant by those. And my own judgment of my own personal situation is no evidence of the lack of the truth. But another way that you can go is the way of revenge. And so I think, you know, if you ask the question, you start with the premise that, okay, mankind is sinful, okay, and there is a God, and that God wants to forgive the sin. So you might say, well, why does he just forgive the sin? And I think the answer to that is because it's not about a contract, it's about a relationship. God actually wants to have a relationship with us. Not as automatons.

[22:30] Michael: I love that word.

[22:31] Matt: Yeah. But as real people. And it isn't much good to forgive sin if we don't understand the sin that is being forgiven. We can't really even see it. And so you might ask this question, like, cause, okay, maybe I tell a lie and then I'm like, oh, that kind of fucks some shit up. And I feel bad about that. You know, be one thing for God to just be like, eh, don't worry about it, but that my sin doesn't stop there. You know, the longer you live, you start seeing it has roots that go far, far down. And so I think there's a question of like, okay, you can forgive me for a lie. What about a cheat? What about betrayal? What about murder? What about suicide? What about direct disobedience to God himself? And you can kind of keep going down and down and down. And I think at the base of it, the one sin that's hardest, I think, to grapple with is that at some level, some part of us wants revenge against God himself. And what would that mean to take revenge against God himself to carry that out successfully? How could God be God if we could annihilate him? That's not much of a God. And so I think that God coming to this earth and incarnating and meeting us in that place of our sort of deepest, darkest, secret, wishful sin and saying, do it. Even that, right? It's not just the murder of Jesus Christ. It is the resurrection. God says, even that I can beat. I can beat your sin. And that to me makes it feel very personal. Like I can say, okay, you really can defeat my sin. Even if it hasn't been driven out of me fully in my life. I know that you are a God who is capable of it because you went and did it. You actually put your hand yourself in the hands of that ugly heart of humanity. Let it have its Way with you, went to hell, broke out, I think the Bible says, freed a lot of people from hell as well, and then resurrected. Okay, if that claim is true, God is all powerful, but not just in a sort of Zeus kind of way or Superman kind of way like that, but has power over every inch of every corner of reality. And why would I want his forgiveness in the first place if it was just sort of simply about some contract? The reason I would want God's forgiveness is because I wanted to have a relationship with him. And the only reason for him to forgive me is because he wants to have a relationship with me. There's this great line that says, jesus hanging on the cross is the expression of God's character. God's character as a father says, I will die for you. Jesus says, there is no greater love than for someone to lay their life down for a friend. And so he showed us that great love, and then he showed us that he's still God because he can overcome our worst impulses. And that, to me, sounds like really good news.

[26:26] Michael: Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of things kind of, like, shot through my head as we were just running that whole, like. That's a really good sort of, like, layout of kind of the problem and the solution kind of stuff. It's like. It's like, in that situation, like, we are all Cain, you know?

[26:43] Matt: Yeah.

[26:43] Michael: Like. Like we are the Roman soldiers who killed Jesus. We're the. We're the Jews that, you know, said, crucify him. And it's like. And it's like, if we don't see ourselves in that position, then we really don't know ourselves. And I think that's something that then Jesus says, like, I can even overcome that. That's. That's, like, how much I love you.

[27:06] Matt: Yeah.

[27:08] Michael: And so I think that's the part, like, it's. I still have, like, a lot of questions around this, but it's like, that makes a lot of sense as far as, like. It's like, no, you can do your worst, and I will rise again and forgive you.

[27:25] Matt: I think it speaks to questions of, you know, like, we talked about at the beginning, when topics of theology or God come up and people want to kind of skirt away from them. I think that that is the. It's sort of the equivalent of wanting God to die. Like, I don't want God messing with my life. I want to be my own God. That's really no different than crucifying Jesus. That's in all of us.

[27:57] Michael: Totally. You see this with. I Think Saul and David kind of give you two examples of how they handle that. Saul disobeys God, but he doesn't repent and he continues to. Saul, Judas, Saul and Paul. I mean, Saul and David back in the Old Testament. King Saul and King David. King. King Saul was the first king of Israel. And you know, he's like, he was like, you know, tall, handsome, good looking, all the. All the stuff that you would expect a king to be.

[28:28] Matt: And he was the king that people wanted.

[28:30] Michael: Yeah, the king that people wanted. And. But the part that that was really his downfall is like, he wasn't repentive. And it's like. And then even became jealous of David and wanted to kill David. And it's because there was something pure about David and his. And I would say it's like his relationship with God. But it's interesting too because like, you know, when David was king, also, like, he screwed up a lot, but the difference between the two was like, he was repentive and.

[29:00] Matt: Repentant.

[29:01] Michael: Repentant, yeah. And changed. And I think that's. You kind of see that trajectory almost in a Cain and Abel way, but also David as Cain and David as Abel.

[29:15] Matt: Yeah. It's so interesting how you see these themes become more and more developed and culminate into this story that we're talking about into the Cross. You know, Cain killed Abel. Cain would have killed God if he could. And the story progresses and you see hints of that, as you mentioned with Saul and David. And ultimately God brings everything to its conclusion without breaking man's free will, without imposing himself on man. He says, do your worst and I can overcome it. There's also a. I wish I would have thought of this and read it before we had this conversation. I've been reading this, it's been a while now, this book by Carl Jung called Answer to Job, where he talks about the story of Job, which is a really fascinating story, you know, in. In which, and I'm sure everybody knows it fairly well, but in which, you know, Satan goes to God and basically makes a bet with God that he can break Job. And God is kind of like, go for it. Right? And in a lot of these stories, you wonder like, what kind of God is this that would, you know, would agree to a bet with Satan with his most righteous servant? And so Satan kills all of his children. He, you know, kills off all of his livestock. I think a bunch of his houses or tents burned down.

[30:43] Michael: His wife curses him.

[30:45] Matt: Well, that's what's so interesting. So he kills all his Kids, all his livestock, burns down his houses, covers Job in sores and boils. And the only. And doesn't do anything to his wife. And there's this great comedian that has a bit about this.

[31:03] Michael: Oh, really?

[31:03] Matt: Yeah. He's like, all this happens. And you're like, satan, Job's wife, she's right there. And Satan's just like, I know. I know what I'm doing. And I love this line because Job is just, like, in anguish, right? All of his children just died. And what does his wife. His wife has one line in the story, and her line is to say this. In his anguish, she goes, job, why don't you just curse God and die? And it's like, yeah, that's worse. That's worse than her dying, for her to take that position. And all of his friends come and try to comfort him. And it's interesting, they go through all of these. They try to figure it out, is it something I did? Is it something someone else did? They go through all these things to try to figure out what the problem is. And you see it switch back and forth from all these different explanations. And ultimately, ultimately, all the explanations fall short. And it culminates with God basically demanding an answer from God, like, why are you doing this to me? And God. And Carl Jung points this out. God responds, and not only does he respond, he justifies himself. He basically says, who are you? Who are you to ask me? And who can thwart the plans of the Almighty, the one who made the Leviathan? And Carl Jung points out that in the course, or sort of what you might call the evolution of religion, religious ideas, this is the first time that we see a God essentially stoop to justify himself to man. Like the Greek gods, the humans were just sort of trifles and play toys. Yeah. A Greek God's not going to justify himself to a human that's beneath him, but God. And this is the first. He starts saying, this is sort of the first evidence of the God of this book, saying, you are worth trifling with. You deserve the real answer. And then Jung basically goes through great pains of setting up that this story, the story of Job, is the precursor to the story of Jesus Christ. And part of God's answer to Job is to become man and suffer the greatest suffering that has ever been known. That's another piece of it that's really kind of hard to wrap your mind around, I think. Or my mind around is that

[33:44] Michael: how

[33:44] Matt: can I experience love in relationship with someone who doesn't understand my suffering? And I think God in becoming man, in engaging his own suffering, you might say he had the most. Jesus Christ had the most tragic death story ever told. To be falsely accused and imprisoned and mocked, turned on by your friends, murdered in the most excruciating way possible. It's actually where we get the word excruciating. The core of that word is the cross, the crux. That's why we say the crux of a situation is from the cross. The cross. The crucifixion was known to be the most publicly. I mean, it was meant to be as painful as possible and as publicly humiliating as possible. You know, they hang you up naked by the side of the entrance of the town. And the way that you die on the cross is not from the wounds of the nails going through your arms. It's from your own exhaustion. Because when you're hanging from your arms like that, outstretched, the way that it contracts your diaphragm, you can't breathe. And so you have to use your shoulder muscles to pull up and relieve some of that tension so that you can breathe. You basically asphyxiate over the course of three or four days. And if it goes on long enough and they're getting tired of you taking too long to die, they just come and spear you. So it's this. And this is in front of your mother, by the way, and all your friends and the people who knew you that chose to have you crucified rather than have a convicted murderer to have the convicted murderer released and you crucified. So it's like God goes, I know something about suffering. I know the depth of it. I know it more deeply than you will ever know it. And so I can actually speak to you about it. You know, this answer to Job, why are you doing this to me? What is this suffering God is saying? I know the suffering.

[36:08] Michael: Yes. It's funny. Like, I. I even in my head, just come up with a lot of objections to all that you just said,

[36:14] Matt: you know, so chance,

[36:18] Michael: like, nice story.

[36:21] Matt: Yeah.

[36:23] Michael: You know, and it's like, I totally understand that that rebuttal to, like, Like. Like what you just said was just so, like, it makes a lot of sense to me and yet why it sounds fantastical, you know? You know, and. And then sort of like. Then kind of retreat back to sort of like evolution or which, you know, evolution as an endpoint, not as a. As a process. You know, it's sort of like. It's like, no, we're just animals that have. Are conscious, you know, and we've kind of created these. These explanations. And. And it's. It's funny because it's like. It's like I want. I want to retreat to something that's more explainable and. Less. I don't know, less gravitas, you know, it's like. Like, it's like the story that you're. You're illuminating kind of starts to. Like, it requires a response from me, and. And it's easier for me to create a story that I don't have to have that response. Like, I don't. I'm not accountable to anybody or to anything.

[37:49] Matt: Yeah.

[37:50] Michael: And that, you know, my sin is just because I'm an animal, you know? You know, it's like. But I'm just. I'm. I've. I've civilized myself enough to live in society.

[38:01] Matt: Yeah. And just let me be.

[38:03] Michael: Yeah. Let me be. And I'm a good person. And, you know, it's like, I haven't killed anybody, or at least not yet, you know? You know, and if I did, it was probably for a good reason, you know? You know, it's like there's all this sort of, like, justify justifying that you can kind of start to do, but I think that's the part that has always. So, like, I can go to that place of like. Of creating that whole other narrative.

[38:29] Matt: Yeah.

[38:29] Michael: But the one thing I can, like, get away from is that. Is that when I chase down this. This reality that you're speaking about, something changes inside of me. Like, it's not just about a belief system. It's about a transformation that happens whenever you accept that. That story, you know? And so the thing you have to ask yourself is like, is it true? Is it real? But I just experientially, it's like. It's like the more that I walk down that path, the more that it transforms me, you know? So it's like, again, it comes down to. It's a relational thing, you know, it's like it. It changes me when you get into a relationship with somebody.

[39:11] Matt: Like.

[39:11] Michael: Like, you change, you know, Like, I'm not. I can't be this. I. When I married Allison, it's like, I can't be the Michael as an individual. It's like I'm now Michael in relation with Allison, and that changes me.

[39:28] Matt: Well, I love that. Earlier you said that the story, this story that we're talking about sort of demands a response.

[39:34] Michael: Yeah.

[39:35] Matt: Because it does read as sort of. It's like, what the hell is happening? What is this? Why is this happening?

[39:43] Michael: Yeah.

[39:44] Matt: I didn't say that, what does this mean? You know, you have an internal response, I think, whereas, you know, something like the story of, let's say, evolution is explanatory of our lives. It doesn't really demand a response from you. You know, as a matter of fact, it kind of relieves you of having to have a response, because in that story, well, I just kind of am who I am as some kind of happy accident. And the fact that I have consciousness, which no scientist can explain, is like, well, whatever. I'm a pretty good person by societal standards, and I live in a pretty good part of the world. I don't have that much trouble, and most of my trouble is my fault anyway. So I could probably just be a little bit better and improve my life. And what happens when I die? It's like, it sort of nullifies a lot of these questions and just sort of says, you don't have to trouble yourself too much about these things. You can just go about your life. Whereas the whole story of the Bible, it seems to me, is nothing but trouble. I mean, it's. It's nothing but trouble for the characters in it. You know, if you really go sit down and read it, it's. It's wild, the things that happen. And then as you're reading it, as you're. If you're reading it as asking yourself the question, did these things happen? Are these things true? If the answer starts to look like yes, that's a bunch of trouble for you. Because I actually have to pursue these questions about, what does this mean? What kind of God are you? I remember when I was in high school, I was on the youth leadership team, and every once in a while we had to give a talk. The students would give a talk on Wednesday night, and I was assigned the topic, the unchangeability of God. This claim that God is as God is unchanging. It's been the same God the whole time. And the talk that I gave was, I read the story. I believe it's in Exodus, when Moses and the Israelites are out in the desert and, you know, they're going through all this trouble. They're getting bit by snakes. They're building idols. They're demanding that, you know, Moses keep going and talking to God to try to get some more information. Finally, God's like, fine, I'll give you the ten Commandments. And then they're like, well, these are nothing but trouble themselves. And anyway, at some point, they've built a bunch of idols, and God commands Moses, he says, go down from the mountain, take your sword and draw a line in the sand. Tell everyone who is with me to step across the line. And anything living that does not cross the line, slaughter them. Men, women, children, animals. This is God's chosen people. What am I to make of a God that does that? And if that's the same God as the God that we're talking about now, what am I to make of that? That's a troubling question. You know, one of the reasons back to Saul and David in that story that God, you know, condemns Saul to lose the throne is because God commands that Saul slaughter the Amalekites.

[43:00] Michael: Yeah.

[43:01] Matt: And again, men, women, children, livestock, and he goes and defeats them. But then he takes some of the livestock and some of the women, and God says, yep, you fucked up. And to your point, Saul isn't repentant. He's kind of mad. Like, what kind of God are you? I was going to make a burnt offering of the livestock and show kindness to the innocent. What kind of God are you? And I remember giving this talk and it's just kind of like, you know, in the Baptist church of. In the Bible Belt, it's kind of like, yeah, I don't want to have to deal with that. I want God as love. I want God died for my sins. And I don't really want to think too much harder about it because that's trouble with a capital T that rhymes with P. That stands for pool. Do you know that reference?

[43:53] Michael: I do not.

[43:54] Matt: The musical Oklahoma.

[43:55] Michael: Oh, okay. I definitely know that.

[43:58] Matt: So it does demand this response from us. Actually, it's not that it demands it. I think it happens naturally and we choose to either pursue it or we don't. And anytime you respond to anything, it changes you. You accept an invitation to a party or into a relationship or a business deal. It changes you. We are shaped by our relationships. We only have identity through our relationships. And what is a relationship? It is call and response. It's question and answer. It's proposition and question. It's a wrestling. And so, yeah, when you engage this story, I think it does change you. If you choose to be changed, if you choose to wrestle, to respond to it, to ask the questions that come up inside of you, inside of your heart. Because I think it's probably impossible to really engage this story and not have some part of you, even if it's just the part of you that's like, what the fuck is this? For that to be. To start non.

[45:14] Michael: Well, even think about how kind of the modern self is I choose who I am. And. And there might be some truth to that, but it's like that's kind of not true. It's like you're. You are like a part of a community. You know, it's like you can isolate yourself and, like, demand someone recognize that this is who I am. It's like, no, like, it's like you're not the. You're not the same. You're this guy that I know over here. It's like. It's like you're. You're the son of so and so the. You know, you live in this city. It's. It's like you're part of this community, and it's like the more you try to isolate yourself, you know, and define who you are, it's like. It's like the more you cut. You get cut off from knowing yourself. And I think that's something that, you know, maybe even that's part of the cross, is like, no, you're my child. And. And to come back, you know, it's like. It's like, I know. I know you and I. I don't know if I said, like, define you or it's like the really re. Re identifying yourself with creation. You know, I think that's the part is like, we. We want to distance ourselves from sort of like the most core part of our being, which is like, we're children of God. It's like.

[46:47] Matt: I think we talked about this a bit last week. I don't remember if it was on or off podcast, but I think when we try to define ourselves, which is to say, to become our own God, to say, this is who I am, we tear our soul.

[47:10] Michael: Yeah, we did talk about that. Yeah.

[47:12] Matt: Because there is something that was put in us that we did not define. And in order for me to be who I want to be, you know, by force, in a sense, because that's really the only way that you can be who you want to be is by force. You know, you see this with so many. With so much identity politics these days. You know, you have to respect who this person is saying that they are, which is to say, submit to their demands. That's some kind of force. But if you think about it, we were talking about this. I think it was after the podcast last week. It's like, you don't have. It's very rare for a person to have a name that was not given to them. It's like your parents name you before you're conscious of it. You were given a name and then you grow up and you accumulate lots of nicknames. Guess who came up with all those nicknames? Not you. A person who tries to impose their own nickname, it's very rarely successful. And if it is, it's because that person's really annoying and demanding. And we probably are all going to have a bunch of new nicknames form behind his back.

[48:28] Michael: Totally.

[48:30] Matt: And then even in the rare case where it's like some kids, they get out of high school and they're just ready to be done with their hometown and they give themselves a new name, often it's to switch to the middle name or something like this. But then I think we can all remember at some point, you've known someone for a long time, you've known them by this name, and all of a sudden you perchance to discover that that wasn't always their name. They used to have their real name. Their given name is something different. And we all find that profoundly interesting. We don't just dismiss that as just kind of like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that happens. We're like, wait, that's not your name. You used to be called this. It's sort of mind blowing to us. It's like profoundly interesting because identity is not defined internally. It is given. It is given through relationship.

[49:25] Michael: And so it's also discovered too, like as an individual. It's like you're discovering it through the outside world. So it's. Yeah, that's. That's fascinating. But then if you like, because the way I'm hearing you talk about it, it's like, it's. It's like you're almost demanding identity. It's like I am demanding to be recognized as this. Instead of. Because there's a difference. Because I do see it even. I mean, because you see that with God in different Paul, Saul to Paul, Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah. But again, it's given to them. It's representing a transformation. It's like you were this and now you're this.

[50:10] Matt: Oh, that's.

[50:11] Michael: But you're anointed.

[50:12] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's another really interesting thing in the story of Jesus that I don't think I really caught onto it until watching the chosen, which is that Jesus loves giving people nicknames. He has nicknames for almost Sons of Thunder. Yes. Or he renames Simon to Peter. He has the big James, little James. He rarely refers to the Pharisees. He calls them snakes. Which is just an interesting thing because it's just evidence of real, of real life. Because that's the way people are, that's the way we are, that's the way relationships are. And that's the way Jesus was, too. Because Jesus was man, both fully God and fully man, whatever that means. I can really only kind of look at one of those at a time, but it seems like there was a story of a real man there.

[51:08] Michael: Yeah, Well, I still have. I mean, that's the. I still have a problem with, like, the. The death and the resurrection.

[51:22] Matt: Like,

[51:24] Michael: I understand the. And I experience the belief of that, but I don't understand the. I still don't understand the why. You know, it still seems super outlandish. Why would you have to die and then rise again? And it's like. And I get it. And I also don't. I think that's always been a troubling part for me. And at different parts, ever different times in my life, I've had to rediscover that, you know, and what it means for me today.

[52:03] Matt: This might have been in one of those podcasts I sent you to ask you to listen to, but somebody was saying it this way, which I just found very, very moving. Or it might have been a different one. It doesn't matter. They said it's almost as if. Oh, they were saying. I think it's somewhere in John that Jesus is saying that heaven is prepared for you. Heaven is prepared for you. That's your place. He said, hell is not prepared for you. That's not your place. And it's almost like God hung himself up on the cross in the front of the gates of hell and said, if you're going to go in there, you have to go over my dead body. You know, which is relatable, because what does a mother or a father say to somebody who's threatening their child, human or bear, or, you know, it's like, over my dead body. You come for them over my dead body. You might say that to your own child. You know, you will do that thing you want to do over my dead body. I will not allow this for you in your life. And this is how we understand love to be when it's real. And I think it's almost like, go back to the premise we're sinful. God wants to forgive the sin. Could he have accomplished it some other way? Maybe. I mean, I don't know. I'm not God. But if God is God and God chose to do it in the way that he did, it seems like he had a very rich purpose for that, you know, to show me you're Going to that place, the deepest, darkest place in you. You are following that darkness to wherever it leads. You will go there over my dead body. I will not let it happen. And in order to make that point, he went through it and he hung himself up on that cross. Oh, and it's so interesting that Jesus, when he's talking to Nicodemus, references the story of the serpent on the staff that Moses holds. God tells Moses to hold up to the Israelites when they were getting bitten by snakes. He says, put a serpent, a golden, I don't know if it's golden, metal serpent on a staff and hold it up and tell them to look at it. Whoever looks at it will stop being bitten. And Jesus to Nicodemus says, the son of man will be lifted like that. To be made an icon of, to be made an example of, to be made the crux of all cruxes, the crux of all issues. To say, you want to see my love? Look here.

[55:24] Michael: See, I think that's, for me, that's kind of why this makes sense to me, is because like I did that and my life changed and it's not because of anything I did.

[55:37] Matt: Yeah.

[55:38] Michael: And so that's why this, that's why this whole thing really baffles me is like experientially I, like, I'm all in. I don't understand it. I've tried a lot of different things. I've gone to every single religion, like everything from Barsanadam, which is a Indian, to synagogues, to you know, Baha'. I. Mean, it's like, and you know, to mosques. I actually took Arabic for two or three weeks at a mosque. And it's like, it's like, and it really was like Jesus who was the thing that actually changed me. And so it's like, so I can't deny that part. I don't understand a lot of the functioning of it, like how it actually, like what happened. Yeah, I mean I can, I can tell you that the, you know, the things that are said. But it's like all I know is that, you know, whenever I, you know, however, what are the words you want to like accepted Jesus into my heart or accepted the cross or however you want to say those things. It's like, it's like when I, when I acknowledge that reality, it's like my life changed and it continues to change. And it's not a one time thing, it's like a daily thing. You know, it's like, so it's like. Or you know, if I'm off Like weeks or months. But it's like every time I turn back to, you know, again, the religious thing, every time I turn back to the cross, it's like I feel like I'm being put back in my place. You know, I'm like, oh, this is home and that. And that's not always pretty. You know, it's like. It's like a lot of times it's acknowledging like, oh, yeah, I've strayed, or, oh, man, somebody loves me. You know, it's like. It's. It's sort of like it's. It's. It's something that I just cannot deny. Even though I might not understand the exact, exact. Like, sort of like how to explain that to somebody, you know, I just know it works.

[57:48] Matt: Well, I wonder if, in a sense, it's not explainable. It is livable. It is not explainable.

[57:54] Michael: Exactly.

[57:56] Matt: And there's another aspect to it. You know, last week we were talking about how, like, maybe one definition of God is that which you take for granted.

[58:04] Michael: Yeah.

[58:05] Matt: Which is to say another way. Another way to say the thing that you take as the most obvious thing, that if I have to explain that part to you, not worth having any more discussions because we're so far off from each other. It's the. Give me one miracle and I'll explain everything to you. Either the virgin birth or the big bang. You can't explain the big bang. You have to take that for granted. The thing you take is the most obvious thing. And I kind of like this working definition for God, because God is not explainable. And in a sense, God is not knowable.

[58:48] Michael: Yeah.

[58:49] Matt: God is the thing by definition which is mysterious. The thing by definition which is. Is sort of omnipresent in your life. It's the thing you use to set the frame for your very perceptions and perspectives. But it's also the thing that you can't justify. You can't point at it. Exactly. And it's almost like in this story of Jesus, God says, I'm going to give you the thing to point at, and I'm going to explain myself. And I'm going to do that in the only way that is even remotely comprehensible, which is to become like you, to make myself like you, to understand suffering in the way that you do, to live through that suffering, to have a father or. Sorry. To have a mother, to have friends, to experience pain and loss and betrayal, and then to inevitably experience death as every human will. That's something I can point to, that is something more like an explanation. It is the mystery breaking through the veil of reality to say, I am here and you can see me and talk to me and point to me, Even if from 2000 years in the future. So maybe that's something else God accomplished in this story. And in doing so, differentiated himself, in a way from every other God or every other potential definition for God. He sort of solved the definitional problem by becoming knowable by, in a sense, changing categories. Right.

[60:47] Michael: Yeah,

[60:50] Matt: I think it's probably. Jordan Peterson said, it's like. It's like, what is it? What do you. What do you get the person who has everything? What do you. What. What experience can God have? Or what does God not have? Limitation. So he takes on the limitation. Limitation of being human so that we can know him.

[61:13] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I just. I just keep coming back to the experiential part of it. It's like. It's like there's something about. It's not about what I do. I mean, that's what most other religions. Like you. You have all these things you have to do. Like, you know, if you meditate hard enough, you will, you know, reach nirvana, you know. Yeah. If you pray five times a day and do all these things, you might get into heaven, you know, and. And then there's just on and on and on as far as, like. And. And the one thing about Christianity and Christ is like, he's like, I've done it for you. You just need to come. And it's like. It's like, oh, my gosh. Like, there's, like so much striving to, like, you know. You know, the world around you demands so much of you. And it's like. And you have to work so hard to just stay on top of things. And God's like, well, that's not how it is with me. I've kind of taken care of that. You just have to come to me. And it's like, it takes on a different. A different experience of the world around you. And then it's like. Then it kind of puts everything in a different light as far as, like, oh, not only was I broken, but also the world is broken. It's like, that's why there's all this heartache. It's not because of God. It's because of us. Like, we caused this. And it's like, it's not. They caused this. It's like, we caused this. And you can no longer exemplify yourself. I think that's the right word. Excuse yourself from the problems of the world because you are also.

[63:17] Matt: Of the world.

[63:17] Michael: Yeah, of the world. And you are part of that problem. And part of that coming to Jesus is like, you're acknowledging that. It's like, oh, I'm part of the problem. And I think in that confession, and you can say, I was with David, like, anytime he stepped wrong and he confessed, it's like all of a sudden, like, he became a solution rather than the problem. You know, it's like he led Israel to, you know, safety and was a good king and stuff like that. But he just like. But he would step wrongly, and it would kind of lead to disaster.

[63:56] Matt: Well, I mean, there's even. It's just like, even functionally, that's. It's the only possible way to move forward in any kind of good way. What's that story? It's from some book, I don't remember, where this woman goes to this party and she meets a therapist, and she's like, oh, I'm so glad to meet you. Can I ask you a question? And she sort of says, my life's going terribly wrong in all these different ways, and I've come to the conclusion that there's either something terribly wrong with the world or there's something terribly wrong with me. And she said, and I really hope it's something wrong with me.

[64:27] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[64:28] Matt: And the therapist is like, wow, why would you say that? And she said, well, because then at least I can do something about it. Because she's admitting, like, I can't change the world. I can't control the world.

[64:42] Michael: The world.

[64:43] Matt: I can't do that. But at least if it's me, there's something I can do about that. And I think anytime you try to externalize a problem, the problem gets way worse. It's like, what does it teach me to. There's that sort of AA prayer to control the things that I can and not control the things that I can't.

[65:09] Michael: Well said.

[65:10] Matt: They say it better than that. But you sort of realize, and I think there's a lot of wisdom from a lot of different sources about this, that you have very little control. We all think we have much more control than we do. But if you can bring the problem to just you, then that's something that you can change. And I think that that is. You see that in the story of the Cross. It's like you're broken and you can do something about it, which is to admit that you can't do anything about it. But I can, and I did. And, you know, it's like, what's that great clip of Jordan Peterson talking about, like, people are always asking, did this happen? And it's like, what do you mean by happen? And he says, it is happening all the time. These things, whether it's the story of the exodus from slavery into the desert before you reach the promised land, or even, you know, the story of Cain and Abel recapitulated into Saul and David and then again actually in. Peter and Judas, who both betray Christ. And you might ask the question of, you know, Cain after he killed Abel, was there a way back for him? And I think it was. Jonathan Pageau pointed out that there's an answer for that in the story of Peter and Judas.

[66:46] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[66:47] Matt: And the answer is yes. And it's by throwing yourself at the feet of Jesus, because that's what Peter does. And he becomes the rock and the foundation of the first church. Judas does not, after betraying Jesus, does not go and throw himself at the feet of Jesus. He hangs himself.

[67:07] Michael: Yeah.

[67:07] Matt: Takes his own life. Yeah. So it's like always to come back and to say, I am the problem and I can't fix it. And it's always happening, and forgiveness is always happening, and the revelation of the story of the cross is always happening, and the resurrection is always happening some way.

[67:34] Michael: Totally. It's like I find this frustrating and relieving at the same time because I feel like there's like a. A certain amount of agency that we have to change the world around us. And then I start to think, like, oh, I can do this. And it's like I'm always continually proven wrong. Like, it's like, oh, no, you can't. But it's weird because you do. Like. Like whenever it's not, and you start to understand the language of, like, you know, when I'm. I'm trying. I don't try to say this in a different way, but I'm just going to say it this way. When I'm doing things in the reality of Christ, it's different from whenever I'm doing it in my own strength like that. Even though it's very ambiguous. It's like, it's, it's. It makes a lot of sense to me because, like, it's sort of like I put myself in the place of God. And now there's this part of, like, I can do this, but it's like it's in my own strength. And it's not through that sort of submission and humility, that sort of, you're in partnership with God, you're in a relationship with God. And, and this is driving me crazy right now, using this language, because it's not really, like, capturing, like, what that. What that really, like, I guess, means to me, you know, is like. But it's very. It's very evident to me as far as, like, oh, oh, I got off there because, like, I thought that I could do this. Which is. Which is so weird because there's a part that's like, sorry, we're hitting it. We're hitting a spot where, like, I don't. I. I don't really. I can't really. I don't really understand it. Sort of like, you know, I can understand why Peter is, like, saying, no, I'm not going to deny you. In fact, I'm going to cut this guy's ear off. I'm going to protect you, Jesus. And I find that sort of, like that spirit in me, too. Sort of like, no, I'm going to defend you, God. Or it's like, I can do this. I've got the power to do this. And it's like. And there's something that you kind of like, you kind of miss the point. And you don't see it until you're like, oh, no, I just denied you three times. And then that sort of like that part where Peter sees it and acknowledges it, and it's sort of like, whoa, I am that guy.

[70:17] Matt: Well, there's something really interesting about that because it's like, we want to imagine that we have agency. And there's this question, this tension between, well, do I have agency or don't I? Is God all controlling or not? And I think this story says something. And even the way that Jesus handles Peter in that, I think God is sort of saying, maybe it goes back to the question, could God have accomplished this a different way? Could he have just snapped his fingers or waved his hand or thought a little thought or sang a little song, do a little dance. That's great, you know, and just solve the problem. Right? But I think it's almost like God has some things that he will and will not do. And I think one of the things that he will not do is violate our agency. He will not impose himself on us. You know, I think in a way that's why in the story of Adam and Eve, there's a rule there. And the rule is there almost you could look at that rule. You can do whatever you want in this garden. You can have anything you want. You can eat of any tree. You can live forever. Only thing you must not do is eat from this one. Particular tree. It's kind of. It's like, why? And I think that it's not about the prohibition, it's about agency and relationship. If there's not a way out, then how is that different than slavery? And I think God is saying over and over, I'm not going to violate your agency if you don't want me, I'm not going to force myself on you. This isn't going to be a rape of a relationship. And so we think we have agency, and I think we do. It's just we're much worse at it, wielding it than we wish we were. And we often break things and mess things up and lie and cheat and steal and we say, I'm definitely going to be loyal. And then we're not. I'm definitely not going to do that thing again. And then seconds go by and we do it again. We are compulsive with our agency, we are reckless with our agency. And. And in a lot of ways that really can be very delightful. Some of the most compulsive, reckless people wield that in ways that create some of really beautiful art, really beautiful insights into things. And there's all these paradoxes in life where some of the best things come from, some of the worst circumstances. Makes me think of Dostoevsky had epilepsy. And before every epileptic seizure, he would write his best work. I think that's the way he said it. He could always tell one was coming because he was having this flash of insight in this flow state. So it's like God allows us to be that way. And I think when we submit to being in relationship with him, beautiful things can grow out of all of that. Even about our own failures. I mean, I think one. Another aspect of the character of God is he tends to turn everything on his head. He tends to take the worst thing that we could think might happen and somehow turn it into the best thing that could happen. I mean, that's what the story of the cross is, I think, properly, if not incompletely understood. But don't we all know that? It's like, you know, you're on some trip and things keep going wrong and things keep going wrong. And you're like, why is this happening? Why is this happening? And all of a sudden something happens and you're like, oh, man, if this succession of things hadn't happened, we would have been here and we would have been fucked. Or we would have been over there and we'd never met this person who's now giving me a job opportunity. And it's like, you know, we have agency, but we also. I think people who are sort of properly playful and tend to walk into opportunity know that their agency is only good for so much and know when to let go and say, I don't know what's going to happen next. I know. I don't control it. I've done what I could, and I'm going to allow what comes to come.

[74:52] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, that's such a tension there as far as, like. Like what we're responsible for and what we're. What we don't have any control over. And I think that's. I think that's a good tension to. To keep. I think that's something that you sent me this one podcast, and it's like anytime we try to roll something up into a. A dogma of some sort, it's like, it kind of almost absolves us of that tension. And I think that's really difficult. And I. I think that's part of, like, I'm actually okay with the tension that I have with Jesus and the cross and his death and his resurrection. It's like part of that tension is healthy and good, because experientially, it's like I. I benefit from that, but it's like. But the tension in that also draws me closer because I don't. It's like, sort of like. It's like someone's nice to you for the first time. You're like, whoa, what is that? It's like, okay, I want more of that. Like, whatever that was, you know, it's like any. Any sort of like, you know, somebody treats you in a way that you're like, man, that's. That's different, you know, like. Or, you know, it's like when I go home to my wife and kids, it's like. It's like that's a. That's a different environment than the world. Or when I come and spend time with you, it's like, oh, what is that? I want more of that.

[76:37] Matt: They're almost sort of like little mini Gardens of Eden. It's like you're outside the world for a minute, or maybe protected inside. You're in the garden.

[76:47] Michael: Yeah. So I find that with that whole progression of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus is sort of like, oh, it's like I feel at home, you know, and it makes sense to me. And outside of that, it's like. And then on the logical. I haven't heard a better explanation.

[77:18] Matt: Well, A couple maybe points worth mentioning. You know, if you're, as you did, evaluating religions, maybe you know the answer to this. I don't fully, but I'm not sure that there is any other.

[77:36] Michael: There's not. Okay, sorry.

[77:38] Matt: Any other religion in which God dies for humanity?

[77:44] Michael: No, every. Every other religion. And it's, bar none. It's. It's based on your effort. Yeah, there's really no other.

[77:51] Matt: So that's really unique.

[77:52] Michael: Except for like a nihilism, which is like, it doesn't matter. So

[78:01] Matt: it seems kind of astounding to me that you might ask the question in your life at some point, well, what is God? Who's God? And one answer that comes back is, well, God is God. But one thing I can tell you is that God loves you so much so that he would die for you and in fact, made good on that promise by doing it. That's pretty astounding. I want to know more about that. What is the character of that God? And then, you know, maybe slightly related. I was listening. I talked about it last week, this CS Lewis audio recording. He talks about how maybe I told this whole story last week. I don't remember.

[78:54] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[78:55] Matt: He said there's something about, like, if you imagine God being outside of time in the way that an author writing a story is outside of the time of the characters in the story. And so for a character in the story, there might be no time between two events in the story, a character named Mary in between one thing that she does, and a knock comes at the door. There may be no time interval between those two things in her experience in the story, but the author might have set down his pen and gone out for a walk, maybe three hours, maybe he spent the entire time thinking about Mary in the story. And there's a way in which God. Because God. The proposition of God is that God does not live within time. God is outside of time. And so it is such that it is possible and maybe inevitable that God will have spent far more time as, you know, time to be thinking about you than all of the seconds of your life. That really hit me. Whatever it is that I'm going through, whatever trouble it is that I'm experiencing, whatever uncertainty, whatever fear that God has spent far more time thinking about that for me, then I have seconds to live because he's outside of that story. He was thinking about it before he started writing it. He's thinking about it for every second of the. Of my experience. And then, okay, and that God, who has considered me far more fully than I have ever considered anything, him included, is willing to become man and suffer and die at the hands of a dark human heart. I want to know that God just.

[81:12] Michael: Even the poetry of it, you know, I think that's like, you know, when you're trying to explain the unexplainable, you know, grasping for words, you know, it's like. It's like whenever. Like the whole idea of, like, that being made flesh and like, even Mary's or John's explanation of, like, you know, of the books that could be written about Jesus and the things he accomplished or did or, like, endless. And I think there's something about, you know, there's a poetry to life that we all sort of respond to. When you read, you know, it's like, for me, it's T.S. eliot. It's like. It's like trying to explain something that's beyond words that you just. That you just can't grasp, but you can kind of like touch it, you know, I think that's something like, with Jesus is like. It's like God can't explain himself to us. Like, that's impossible. You know, the only way that he can really, like, like, explain himself to us is to live among us, you know, And I think there's something really beautiful and poetic about that is sort of like, you know, in something that we can experience even today, not having the sort of like living, breathing Jesus is like, that story has. Has persisted throughout time. And still I feel like that's something that we can relate to as far as, like, the poetry of Jesus of, like, coming and living among us and something about that, like, even being able to experience that today. I think that's why I keep coming back to the experience of it. It's like I feel like I experienced a poem of Jesus, you know, and something. And experiencing them, I feel that reality of that. And there's something that I just can't turn away from.

[83:19] Matt: It's very true. Maybe that's something else interesting about the character of God, is the way that he chose to enter into his own story. As if Tolkien goes himself into Mordor, you know.

[83:37] Michael: Stanley Marsh.

[83:38] Matt: Stanley Marsh.

[83:39] Michael: It's not Stanley Marsh. Stanley the comic book writer. He's always in all the stories, you know.

[83:47] Matt: Oh, Stan Lee.

[83:48] Michael: Stan Lee.

[83:48] Matt: Yeah. But the way God chooses to enter into his own story in the sense that he's writing is poetic and dramatic, and it's like we're all still sitting around talking about it. It's a pretty good story.

[84:08] Michael: Yeah.

[84:09] Matt: You know, he's not bland and, you know, or comprehensible or explainable. And if he was, probably wouldn't. Well, he probably wouldn't be God, but we also probably wouldn't be talking about it as much as we do. And I mean that of all people, not just you. And I mean, obviously, whether you're a Christian or not or believe in God or not, it's like you can't really deny that people have been sitting around talking about this. At minimum, people are gathering in the United States on every Sunday to do just that.

[84:49] Michael: Or the amount of things that's influenced, whether it be the Constitution or end of slavery or all men are created equal. It's like created in God's image. It's like those ideas have permeated through time and affected societies and it's easy to kind of dismiss them as like, oh, those are kind of self evident. It's like, really, Are they self evident? It's like, actually there's an origin to that.

[85:25] Matt: It's interesting. I just had this little fantasy flash through my mind, if you could, because I think people in the west, in the US generally believe, yeah, all men are created equal. You write those words, those five words on a whiteboard and you say of any given person, he's like, do you agree with this? I would be shocked if they didn't say yes. Yeah, yeah. That's the premise, right, of everything good. It's the premise of all good policy. It's the premise of all good politics. It's a premise of kindness and tolerance. And then if you just take your eraser and erase the last word, so now it just says all men are created. You say, do you believe that? I think people would be like, you tricked me.

[86:12] Michael: That's interesting.

[86:15] Matt: Hold up. I know.

[86:17] Michael: Well, I think there's a, there's a, there's an interesting part with that too, is like, like, if you take like the God thing out of it, it's like, all men are created equal. Or just like all men are equal.

[86:28] Matt: Well, that's.

[86:28] Michael: It's like, are they equal? They're actually not equal.

[86:31] Matt: It's the creative in comparison. If you take the word created out, it's a sentence that doesn't make any sense.

[86:36] Michael: Totally.

[86:37] Matt: It's so obviously untrue. All men are equal in what way?

[86:41] Michael: Yeah, intelligence.

[86:43] Matt: Give me even single way. I can't even think of a single way that we're equal. The sentence is only coherent when you keep the word created because it has to do with intent, not with observable, measurable attributes. All men are created equal, only has power because we are created. And our endowment from that creation is the inherent image of something divine.

[87:15] Michael: Well, you see the perversion of that right now, it's like some people would revert to like, well, we're all human, we're of the human species. It's like, okay, well only if you adhere to my ideas of what that means. And so then it becomes self referential. Where I think like you were talking about the creative part is like outside of us, we are created equal. Like we're, we're something other than, you know, an idea or something like that. It's like, it's like there's a reference point that we have that we're made in God's image and we're made, we're made equal in his eyes. It's like where if it comes down to the human part of it, like we're created equal. It's like, well, if you don't believe in my worldview, then you're less than

[88:07] Matt: well, and created in his image is the only way that I can actually be tolerant to others. Because you might think you understand something about the image of God by observing the people around you. And you might understand something about tolerance by observing the people around you. But then if you thrust yourself into a completely different culture and people are behaving in ways that are incongruent with what you consider tolerant or kind or good, then I don't get to just say I meet a person who doesn't match my ideas. I don't just get to say, well, that person's wrong. I have to first submit to maybe my understanding of what is right is incomplete. Maybe my understanding of the image of God needs to incorporate something about this person that's incomprehensible to me. And so I have to humble myself. It puts me in the right place in the order to where I can be actually I can be in relationship with an other. Because if there's no. If you remove that created and you just have equal, there's no basis for the equality. And when you find the obvious inequality, the thing to do about that is to impose equality by force. And that's not good at all. I mean, I wonder if it is impossible to avoid totalitarianism without God in the right place. Because your very perception of what good is, your very conception of what good is, will have to, as you say, be self referential. And so anything that doesn't meet up to it or live up to it will. You got to get rid of it because you can't control it because you're not God. So it's either tolerate it, maybe at your own demise, what Gad Saad would call suicidal empathy, or put yourself in the right place in the order of things.

[90:21] Michael: I think this is going to take me into a whole other run of a subject. Maybe we should, like, kind of like, wrap this. Wrap this up where we're at right now. Yeah, probably because I want to go in another. Another direction or same direction, but just more of like a. Because I think there's a lot of ramifications of what you just said that is. Is, you know, you know, a totalitarian government is like, how do you keep it from falling apart? It doesn't allow for self correction. It doesn't allow for admission of falling short of an ideal. Anytime the system's challenged, it could just tear down the whole thing. And I think there's something with that. You have to have that higher ideal that's above the system and allows for correction and stuff. Yeah.

[91:17] Matt: Well, maybe we can bookmark that and try to jump back into it next week.

[91:21] Michael: Yeah. Well, do you feel. I mean, do you feel like this. This sort of run on this podcast has really enlightened you in this area, or do you feel like you have more questions or both? Like, how is this. Like, how's this tonight's discussion, like, helped you, or.

[91:44] Matt: It just reminded me how amazing I find it. Like, the more I think about it and the more I consider it and the more I read these stories, the more amazed I am. And amazed in kind of a way where, Like, okay, I've had this experience before where, like, I've talked in the past about how I saw Mark Rothko painting once. He paints those big blocks of color. And I'd seen images of Rothko's work online for many years, but I actually went to the Met in New York and saw one in real life, and I always kind of thought they were dumb. I saw one in real life and I was transfixed.

[92:38] Michael: Wow. Okay.

[92:39] Matt: I did not want to move away from that painting. I wanted to stand there all day. So I think it's. I use that as an example of we can come across ideas or works of art that we find to be transfixing, we find to be amazing, astounding. I find that in these stories, but I also find that there's something far more great about it, which is that it's interactive. A Rothko painting is not interactive. It is what it is. But these stories are living, these ideas are living. And I feel. I don't feel loved by a Mark Rothko painting, but I feel loved in the same way that I feel loved when one of my children hugs me, when my mother hugs me. The same way I feel loved. Or you might feel loved. In the eighth grade, when you open your locker and there's a note there that somebody slid through the cracks.

[93:56] Michael: It's like, oh, someone's thinking about me. Totally.

[93:59] Matt: I feel that, like, I have been created. I have been thought of. When? Who is that person that thought of me and created me in that podcast that I sent you on? Lying. I'll try to find it and put it in the show. Notes. He says that the logos, the word that created all things through which all things are created, and nothing has ever been created. Not through it. How does John say it? Everything that is. Is currently being held in being by the word, and the word became flesh. So it is the ordering principle. The logos is the ordering principle. That's what the word means. The logos, the word that spoke everything into existence in the beginning, holds me in existence, in being right now. And the logos, the word, became flesh and died so that I might be free. I don't know. No note compares with that. I find that incredibly compelling. That's good news. And I'm living a life in which there's been a lot of bad news as of late. I'm feeling kind of beat up by it.

[95:46] Michael: Totally.

[95:47] Matt: But I think about that, and I think that's good news. I want that. And that is now. That is here and now.

[95:55] Michael: It's like, God put a little note in your locker.

[95:57] Matt: Yeah.

[96:00] Michael: It's like, I love it.

[96:01] Matt: It had some blood on it.

[96:04] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[96:04] Matt: I did something, too.

[96:07] Michael: That's funny.

[96:10] Matt: What about you? I don't know.

[96:12] Michael: I think I kind of like the way that you wrapped it up. I think that's really. I think that's good.

[96:18] Matt: Well, we'll leave it there.

[96:19] Michael: All right.

[96:20] Matt: Thanks for coming on this journey with us, everyone.

[96:21] Michael: To the shores. We went. And we're back.

[96:26] Matt: Well, we'll be back next week. Love you all out there. And God does, too.