The Proper Posture When Nothing's Working

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers in a crowded crowd.

[0:09] Michael: It's a dream begging to reveal.

[0:11] Matt: The passing note of a song. The glimmer of a shifting scene. You think you saw it, saw it, but you didn't. You think you see it, but you see it not. Um, okay.

[0:24] Michael: Okay.

[0:25] Matt: Here we are. You are, for the 284th time. Wow, we're still doing it, baby.

[0:33] Michael: We are.

[0:34] Matt: Cheers to the shores.

[0:39] Michael: But some of y'all missed us last week. Matt was sick.

[0:44] Matt: I was.

[0:44] Michael: You had the vid, maybe.

[0:46] Matt: It really did feel like I had COVID. You go, that's so 2020. Uh, yeah, I just felt like garbage last week, and it lasted like 7 days. Yeah, so glad to get through that.

[1:00] Michael: I always feel like it's illegal to get sick during the summer. I think it's just like, uh, it's, it's like a— from my childhood, I think it's like, oh, when it gets cold, that's when you get a cold or you're sick. Yeah, it's like, oh, viruses don't give a shit about, for the most part, weather outside. Yeah, it's more your— yeah, I don't like any of that.

[1:23] Matt: Well, glad to be back in health and Yeah, back on the buck.

[1:27] Michael: I know, you threw my whole week off.

[1:28] Matt: I know, it felt weird.

[1:29] Michael: What's going on here?

[1:31] Matt: You were like wanting to do it anyway.

[1:32] Michael: Oh dude, yeah, I'm like—

[1:34] Matt: I was mostly concerned for your family.

[1:36] Michael: Oh, bullshit.

[1:38] Matt: No, no, I really, really felt terrible.

[1:42] Michael: I called Matt some names so y'all don't have to.

[1:44] Matt: Yeah, but we're back.

[1:46] Michael: We're back.

[1:47] Matt: Here we are. What's been going on for the last 2 weeks, dude?

[1:53] Michael: I have no idea. Just so much. Like, I think there's a, there's just, I don't know, just a lot of things. I think, I feel like you and I are both on a chewing on things season, and, uh, which is kind of fun because you don't really know exactly where you're going to go with it because you haven't gone there yet. And that's kind of where we usually are on the podcast anyways, but like there are some things that are just so new that you're— you kind of have to like grasp some words.

[2:25] Matt: Well, here's a question I've been chewing on that maybe actually kind of sets the stage for some of the topics we were talking about talking about on tonight's podcast. Um, and the question is something like this, it's something like, what is the proper posture to take when things don't seem to be going well? And I'll frame that, I think, specifically within Christianity. What is the proper Christian posture to take when things aren't going well?

[3:07] Michael: Well, I might widen it a little bit just because, yeah, It's like, what do people do whenever things aren't going well? I think that's something that, you know, "Oh, the world is against me." There's that sort of like, "I'm trying, but the world is against me and I'm trying to do something better," or having bad luck or something like that. Or it's somebody else's fault too. Sort of like I'm a victim of the elite or someone else's fault that things aren't going well for me.

[3:51] Matt: Why do you think people choose to explain things that way? Because it doesn't seem to be a very helpful position to take.

[4:03] Michael: Yeah.

[4:04] Matt: If things are not going very well in my life and I blame it on someone else, Well, that doesn't actually fix anything. That doesn't change anything. That just breeds resentment in me, probably, and will probably lead me to do damaging things toward that person or other people in response, right?

[4:25] Michael: Well, it's interesting because it's almost a natural response. It's like the scapegoat, you know, uh, you know, in Judaism, Christianity, it's sort of like something else is holding your sin. You know, you, you take it out and it goes to somewhere else. But in, in some instances, like, but what you have to do with that person or that thing is kill it, right? You know, if it continues to live, it's a reminder of the, of the very thing that it's supposed to take on, right? And so I think that's what we do is we, when we blame somebody, they're actually, they're actually, you've just kind of put your sin or problems on the other person, and they don't go away because they didn't die. You know, that's probably the ultimate— like, you kill somebody because, you know, usually they have something that you want, or it's anger or something like that. But, um, yeah, so it's like, I think your question, like, what's the— what, what should we actually do with it? I think that's really hard. I think I've more experienced what I have done with it, right? Right. You know, It's like sometimes I want to wallow in it and try to figure it out.

[5:37] Matt: Yeah, I was going to say sort of licking your wounds, like wallowing in it, saying, "Woe is me." It's turning to bitterness. Those are things I'd like to avoid. But, you know, you said that the scapegoating is natural. I wonder about that. It does seem like it happens a lot. You see a lot of it in our modern culture. Everyone has a problem that's someone else's fault. Yeah, you know, whether it's political or cultural.

[6:14] Michael: Well, it's because it's fascinating too. Give me some leash on this because I'm gonna kind of go a direction I'm not sure where it goes, but you know, almost if you don't put it outside of yourself, like, as a scapegoat, it's like, I don't think you can really stand up under the reality of how much you've fallen short, or, or what role you had to play in, in that things being the way that they are. Mhm. I had this— I just had this conversation with a guy just about 2 hours ago, honestly, and he was just saying, like, it, it's really difficult whenever you start to look at like what your role in the— even though it might have been the other person's fault, you know, but then you start looking at your role in it, right? And it doesn't look pretty.

[7:08] Matt: Yeah, that's a, that's a hard thing to go back and, and look at sometimes because, you know, I don't know ultimately if the way things have gone in my life, I mean, good and bad, But I'm kind of just focusing, and the reason I've been chewing on this question is, I'll just give one example. I've been looking for new employment for like the last year and a half and have had a really hard time in the job market. I've just been doing contracting and freelance work and that's been fine, but I've been applying to a lot of jobs and it's like, I don't know if everyone in my industry, the tech industry, is having this issue, but there's a lot of job postings and almost no one, almost none of them you can get a response from. And I don't know if it's because they're getting inundated with like AI-produced resumes and profiles, and there's just so many people applying they can't reply to everybody, but it's just been a weird, a weird season. And, um, there's some days, you know, and I send off, you know, 5 or 6 job applications a day for a while, and then at some point I'm like, not getting any back, and I'm starting to question myself. Like, did I actually send those? Am I on a blacklist somewhere? Am I even a real person, or is this just a dream? Like, what is happening?

[8:28] Michael: Michael, am I a real person?

[8:29] Matt: Yeah. Um, so I'm spinning a top trying to see if it's indicating that I'm in Inception. That's awesome. Um, I kind of lost my train of thought where I was going with that.

[8:44] Michael: Things about like, is it your fault? Or—

[8:47] Matt: yeah, well, so I think you can get yourself into a rather negative mindset about yourself. You get sort of down on yourself and you think, you know, I'm simultaneously doing this, this dance around like, well, it's somebody else's fault, right? Like, I'm on a blacklist on something that I can't control or see that's like you know, censoring me, something like that. To the other side, which is like, well, I'm not a— I must not be a good person. I must not be relevant to the marketplace. I must not have the skills that I thought that I had. And from that perspective, you can look for rather negatively at a lot of things. You can say, oh man, look at my career. It's like it's been kind of failure after failure, which isn't true. But you can get yourself into a position where you start looking at things that way. And I have noticed as I've evaluated, it looks like, okay, is that true? And I've been working really hard on my resume and I decided that what I was gonna do is, 'cause I've been in this industry for 25 years and it's really hard to make a resume for 25 years worth of work and know what to include and not include. And the common wisdom is that your resume shouldn't be longer than like 3 pages. You know, so it's hard, it's hard to do. I thought, well, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to write down everything I can remember ever doing. And I ended up with this like 9-page document of, you know, just kind of like vomiting out all the things that I can remember that I did. And I was like, I'm going to put that into Grok and ask it to basically read it and make a resume based on that. So as I was going through all of these things that I've done in my career, I had these two simultaneous thoughts. One was I was, I felt very impressed with myself. I was like, I've really done a lot and I've done a lot of really impactful things. And I felt really proud. The other thing that I thought is I could remember at many, many times in my career where I thought, ah, I remember, like I feel some, I feel convicted because I remember at this time thinking that I should do X and I didn't do it. And I think things would have been better, could have been better had I done X. So for example, one thing that came to mind is there was a time in one of my jobs, one of the companies I was working for, where they were actually having a really hard time hiring people, like getting really good candidates. And one of the reasons was that the CEO of the company was rather controversial.

[11:28] Michael: Oh yeah.

[11:28] Matt: And so people were a little gun-shy about the company in general. We actually hired somebody who was great and She quit after like 3 months and she apologized to me 'cause I really liked her and I thought she was doing a great job. I was trying to encourage her to stay and she was like, "I'm sorry, I just, I can't be involved in this guy's image." And I was like, "Okay, I get it." And I remember around that time thinking, I think I know how to solve this. I think I know how to message to potential candidates and how HR and recruiting should position us and the way that we should handle the communication of the problems that the company has had, quite frankly. And I thought, I need to sit down and write it out. And then I need to give it to, you know, basically like hold a meeting and say, hey, this is the plan. And I shied away from it. So I thought, well, you know, maybe that's not my responsibility or my position, or maybe it'd be overstepping bounds. Maybe, you know, let HR do their thing. It could be insulting to them if I try to tell them how, you know, what to do. You know, that's not even blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I chose not to do it. And I felt a little convicted about that because I thought I turned away from a chance to make things better. I'm not sure that it would have made things better, but I think that it's sort of like any creative endeavor. If you're a songwriter, you might be driving down the street and a song just kind of pops into your head, an idea for a song. And you have a choice at that point. Like, you can either receive it, accept it, give it birth, write it down, make a voice memo, do whatever you can to capture it. Or you can sort of say, I don't have the time, I can't do this. And the song goes away, never to, you know, maybe goes away and finds somebody else. But I think when we have ideas. And I don't think we come up with these ideas. It's like, where did that idea come from? Hey, Matt, I think you have a chance at making this better, and here's how you should do it. That just sort of came into me, and I denied it. And I noticed a lot of those as I was writing out my whole history. I was like, oh, there, I did that there too. Oh, right, I remember I did that there. Mostly it's, I didn't do that. It's like I had an idea and I didn't do it because I convinced myself that it wasn't my job or it was somebody else's responsibility or it would have been, you know, overstepping my bounds, something like that. And I thought, well, I'm not exactly sure whose fault it is that I'm in the position that I'm in right now, but I sure do know that I've identified some things I could have done to make things better. At certain stages of my life. And that's something that is in my control. Whether I'm on a blacklist is outside of my control, right?

[14:34] Michael: Or the CIA's after you.

[14:35] Matt: The CIA's after me, yeah. But there are things that are in my control. And I sort of made a commitment to myself, and I've done this before in the past, and it's like a New Year's resolution. You feel good about it for a while, then you forget. It's like I wanna commit that when a good idea comes to me, that I will give it birth, that I will give it a place to be, a place to succeed or to fail. You know, you don't know if the idea seems good. You just have a sense of it. But unless you go after it, you'll never know.

[15:17] Michael: It's funny, I feel like I'm on the other side of that is, 'Cause as you're like kind of laying out those things like, oh, I should have done this, I feel like it's more of like, I shouldn't have done this. Like I have so many crazy ideas that I go after. It's like, it's sort of like, I come back to the whole Peter, you know, fishing, you know, at night trying to like catch fish and his net keeps coming up empty. It's like, I feel more like that. It's like, I'm always just throwing my net over all the time. Right. And it's like, Yeah, and there's something about like, as I've seen this tension between kind of those two things, because there's kind of this like being able to hear and listen. And like there's certain things that you shouldn't pursue that may be good ideas, but you shouldn't pursue them. But there are also good ideas that you should pursue. And it's like, but how do you know the difference? Because the very same idea could be either be a distraction or something really good. And that kind of discernment's really difficult to— I feel like I've chased it. I've chased a lot of distractions.

[16:33] Matt: Yeah.

[16:33] Michael: And I think you've heard quite a few of mine too, because I'll like either call you or text you the next day. Oh man, okay, here's what I got. I spent the last like 18 hours on this.

[16:44] Matt: Yeah.

[16:45] Michael: And it's like, and then it fizzles out and it's like nothing. Nothing comes from it, but just wasted like 3 months on it.

[16:52] Matt: I'm definitely guilty of that too.

[16:53] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[16:54] Matt: Yeah, I know, I know you are, but it's just like, I mean, I'm, I'm very fond— I've told the story before— I'm very fond of the, that case study of the music streaming service Rdio. Very early on, was in this incredible service, and, and they ended up going bankrupt, I think. And I read this sort of postmortem on the company that said basically it would— they were a bunch of people who were just like in love with design and user interface and user experience, and it, it showed. Like, the application was incredible to use, um, but they just like never thought to hire any marketing people or salespeople. They were just obsessed with building this cool thing.

[17:32] Michael: Yeah.

[17:33] Matt: And I fall into that trap a lot. I think, you know, the trap is something like, if you build it, they will come. And That's just not true. Yeah, that's a Kevin Costner movie. That's not reality, you know. Um, you have to tell people about the stuff that you do, especially in the internet these days when, you know, you can launch a new website and get zero visitors forever because no one's ever going to find it. So you have to tell people about what you're doing. And I can get very much like heads down in love with what I'm building that I could just do that forever and forget to ever ask anybody to look at it.

[18:14] Michael: Yeah, I mean, there's this—

[18:16] Matt: there's that great meme, uh, like, Mom, why are we poor? Because your dad got Claude Code and never shipped anything.

[18:24] Michael: Totally.

[18:25] Matt: You know, I think there's a lot of people who are using AI and they're so fascinated and in love with what it's doing. Yeah, but they forget to actually do something worthwhile.

[18:37] Michael: Yeah, I think I've got like 20 projects in that area that are like 80% done. It just needs that like a little bit.

[18:45] Matt: Yeah, tweak, push something. I think one thing that I've noticed working, um, in my industry, you know, I've had a lot of— I've worked for a lot of CEOs, and the CEOs that are really good and actually like make progress towards financial goals for the company tend to have this skill that I'm not sure that I have, which is the ability to not be sort of precious about what it is that you're doing, but say, if, you know, if something isn't working, we're cutting it. I don't care how cool I think it is. I don't care how good you've done it. I don't care how much I like the people working on it. They're willing to just like almost like heartlessly slash things.

[19:32] Michael: Totally.

[19:32] Matt: And I've, you know, I've been really mad about that a couple of times in my career, and I've been on the losing end of it. I've gotten slashed. Um, uh, but I've also seen it play out where I was mad about it and then I saw the business transform and become healthier, and I thought, yeah, I couldn't see that, dude.

[19:51] Michael: Yeah, that's a hard one. I don't, I don't think I'm good at that either. Yeah, that's hard. I do fall in love with projects and ideas and maybe not the execution. Like, oh, actually, but if you let something die, it actually allows like the plant to be more healthy, right?

[20:12] Matt: I mean, yeah, you have to prune your plants, and you have to be pruned too if you want to bear fruit.

[20:21] Michael: Yeah. So do you feel like in all those different situations that you're talking about, like, do you feel like you, you handled them well? Like that sort of those transitions from like when you're going through, whether it be losing a job or looking for a job or, you know, I mean, obviously it's like kids, family. I mean, that kind of goes on and on, but because you're kind of talking about like at the beginning, like Like, how do we position ourselves to like actually move through something when—

[20:52] Matt: yeah, I mean, what is the, what is the proper posture when nothing seems to be working?

[21:01] Michael: What's your default mode?

[21:13] Matt: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what my default mode is.

[21:22] Michael: Well, my default mode is to replace it with another idea, you know, which is not healthy.

[21:28] Matt: But meaning the thing that just died, you're just going to replace it with something new?

[21:35] Michael: Or just it is dying. Yeah, but I'll just like distract myself with a different idea.

[21:39] Matt: A different idea.

[21:40] Michael: And not actually deal with it.

[21:42] Matt: Yeah, I think I do that for sure. You know, there's been— I tend to constantly have a lot of sort of irons in the fire and I don't take really very good care of any of them. So I think at the beginning, you know, when there's a big life disruption, I'm like, oh, well maybe one of these other things is gonna go and take off. And after a while, and so I'll kind of throw myself into that. And then after a while, I'll realize that might be unrealistic. And the reality is that I have a family to take care of and I need to solve for that, not for my dreams, not for my pet projects.

[22:23] Michael: Yeah.

[22:24] Matt: You know, I think it's probably okay to have hope and even the expectation that these dreams and pet projects might one day bear fruit, but expecting them to suddenly bear fruit because your—

[22:40] Michael: you need them—

[22:41] Matt: stability got pulled out from under you is like asking a toddler for something that, you know, for advice.

[22:50] Michael: It's like you go, you go to your entire family, like, okay, everybody's getting a job. Dad, I'm 5 years old, right?

[22:58] Matt: Um, So I guess as I've been thinking about that, like, what is the proper posture? You know, because— and I said that I wanted to cream it— cream it— frame it specifically in a, in a Christian view because Christ insists rather insistently, vehemently, vehemently that— well, for example, he says, if your child asks you for a loaf of bread, would you give him a snake? And he says, if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, And I don't know, I can't remember the phrasing exactly, but how much more will your Father in heaven give you? He says, do not be anxious about anything. You will be taken care of. Ask and you shall receive.

[24:07] Michael: The flowers in the field are taken care of. Like, why would he not? Oh, the sparrows fed. It's like, there's so many examples. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

[24:16] Matt: It's like, so many examples of that. There's so many examples of it. And I think, Well, I don't know if I believe that.

[24:24] Michael: Totally.

[24:24] Matt: Right? I'm reading it. I want to believe it. But I look around in my life and I'm thinking, well, I got all these problems and I got all these needs and they don't seem to be being met or being taken care of. But what does he say? But seek first the kingdom of heaven and all these will be given unto you. It's not a condition, but it's a posture. And I think that starts to become the beginning of an answer to my question. What is the proper posture when things aren't going well? Well, that's the posture, to seek first the kingdom of heaven. Okay, well, what does that mean?

[25:00] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[25:01] Matt: You know, well, I'm feeling rather down on myself and a little bit depressed. I'm lacking motivation. You know, I'm wallowing a little bit, so maybe I won't go on my morning swim or maybe I won't exercise today or, 'You know, maybe I deserve a day off working on my resume, and I'm just going to sit on the couch and watch TV because I'm in a bad mood.' It's like, well, okay, is that or is that not seeking first the kingdom of heaven? I don't know exactly what that means, but I can fairly well, uh, bet that that isn't it. You know, it's like It would be better to say, I'm going to sit on my porch quietly and meditate or pray or go for a walk. I'm not going to distract myself with podcasts or with YouTube videos or social media or any of these things and literally just wait till something better comes into my head that I could do.

[26:07] Michael: I think the other part too is, uh, I kind of stumbled again on this week was just like thinking of other people, like how can I help somebody? And I've caught myself the last 2 or 3 weeks, 'cause this has been kind of on my mind. We always have things on our mind that are similar. And I've had these different moments where I was about to just try to cut off a conversation and then move into my next thing that I needed that I needed to get done, which was really not true, you know. And I just stopped and I like put my attention on the person and was just like, tell me more about that. Or, you know, that's not exactly what I said, but it was just like, but I had that posture of like, oh, tell me more.

[26:57] Matt: Yeah.

[26:57] Michael: And it was just like, it's sort of like that weight kind of came off my shoulders. And I was like, oh, I'm so worried about my problems that I can't give attention to other people. Like, other people are just as heavy burdened as I am. And there's something about putting my things aside and like, put— giving my attention to somebody to allow them to unburden themselves that actually unburdens me too, which— so that'd be the selfish part of that too.

[27:29] Matt: Well, I mean, a lot of people have been making this point, I've heard— who was it? There's somebody on the All In podcast was making it, but Jordan Peterson made this point a lot, that there's really no difference between introspection and— what did he say? Basically, like, anxiety, depression, mental illness. It's like the more you think about yourself, the more miserable you become.

[27:54] Michael: Totally.

[27:55] Matt: And to put your attention on something else. I mean, it's a matter of perspective, I guess, right? Like, if my perspective is things aren't going well, well, what is it that I'm going to notice? I'm going to notice the things that aren't going well.

[28:11] Michael: Totally.

[28:11] Matt: But if I change my perspective and say, well, yesterday I had a 9-to-5 job, so I knew it was like I was going to do from 9 to 5. Today I don't have it. I can sit around and be upset about that. Or I could say, well, I have 8 hours, 8 good hours today that I don't know what to do with. What could I use them productively for? What do I have time to do now that I didn't have time to do yesterday? And, you know, maybe it's like, oh, I'm gonna go pick my daughter up and take her to lunch, or I'm gonna go to see my neighbor and what she's up to, ask her if I can, you know, give her any help with things around the house because she's older. Um, you know, I think if you ask yourself a question like that, it totally changes the, the nature of the problem. I'm not saying that I'm good at doing that, or even that I do it, but I think it is an answer— I was gonna say a valid answer. I don't know that it's valid. It's, it's an answer that, to my question about what your proper posture is when it seems to you Or say it another way, what is my proper posture when it seems to me like nothing is working? You know, I'm trying to make things happen, it's not working. Well, the blame it on somebody else, the wallow, the focus on how, you know, things aren't fair, all of that, it's basically Cain. Right? Cain is upset because his sacrifices weren't accepted. You know, it's like, I'm upset because my life isn't the way that I want it to be. Right? What do you do? What did God say to Cain? God said, well, if your sacrifices were better, they would've been accepted. You know that. It's like, okay, how do I make my sacrifices better? How do I take my time and sacrifice it to a something better? Which is to say there's no difference in the word sacrifice there and spend. How do I spend my time better? I have all this extra time now. How am I going to spend it? That seems like, okay, that's a posture that seems likely to bear fruit. That's a posture that seems to me like a possible answer to what does it mean to seek the kingdom of heaven? And all those other answers, all those other options that I'm wooed by, you know, I'm drawn to like a siren's call. I'm like, I don't want to think about any of this. Just let me look at Instagram for the next 7 hours or something. It's like, well, that's— who wants to spend their time that way? No one does. And yet we all do it. You know what I mean? Why are we this way? Why are we addicted? Why are we drawn? It's like, I've never, you know, been on Instagram for a while and put my phone down and said, "That was a really good use of my time. I'm really glad I did that. I'm really proud of myself." You know what I mean?

[31:28] Michael: Yeah.

[31:29] Matt: And yet we all spend so much of our time doing it. And there's almost a sense in which I kind of hate this question because I have, if I ask myself this question, myself will answer me. And I kind of am mad at myself for having answers. Because in times of uncertainty, there are times when I say, okay, Matt, make a list of 4 or 5 things that would be a good use of your time for the next 3 hours. And my brain immediately generates it. And then I go, yeah, fuck you, I don't want to do any of that.

[32:08] Michael: Yeah.

[32:08] Matt: And it's like, why am I that way? I don't know why I'm that way. I don't want to be that way.

[32:13] Michael: Well, okay, so this is the— I think I have a problem with all of this because, yeah, because it's not that any of that is good or bad. Like, you know, you generate these ideas, and then it's like, oh, how can I spend my next 3 hours? And it's like you generate these ideas and you go and do them and you feel good about it. But then there's also a part of that is also can be distracting from the very thing that you need to be doing. You know, it might be just sitting still and doing nothing. And I think that's the— I think that's—

[32:47] Matt: well, sometimes that's on my list.

[32:49] Michael: Yeah, well, I, I'm kind of just more of like the formulaic aspect of it, you know? Does that make sense? Like, it's like, it's because like the, the very thing itself is not good or bad, it's— but there's something about—

[33:00] Matt: oh, I see what you mean. Does it make sense? The sort of— well, let's steelman the Instagram thing. It's not that Instagram is good or bad. It's— what is it? It's how you're using it.

[33:14] Michael: Yeah, because I mean, there's sometimes when you watch Instagram and you're just cracking your ass, you come across a few things, they're just like— and it's like, it really is stress relieving and it's cathartic.

[33:24] Matt: And it's, you know, you send your clip the clip to your friend, they have a good laugh. Yeah, there's, there's a value to that.

[33:29] Michael: Yeah.

[33:30] Matt: So it isn't always just the doom scrolling, you know, mind meld sucking your soul out of your body, right?

[33:38] Michael: Yeah, there's that 2% that's really healthy and good, right?

[33:43] Matt: Well, I mean, maybe this just goes back to the discernment that you were talking about earlier. It's like you have to have discernment about these things. I mean, I think there are times when it's totally valid to say, you know what, I I just need to, you know, couch potato for a bit.

[33:58] Michael: Totally.

[33:58] Matt: There's other times when your discernment says, no, that's my sloth. That's my, uh, that's being irresponsible. That is neglecting to take care of things that I love.

[34:17] Michael: God, it's so complex because You— I, I just hear like this, the dialogue in my head where it's like sometimes it is veg on the couch. Yeah, sometimes it's like, no, it's not. Sometimes it's just the, the battle in your head on whether it's good or bad to do the thing, each thing. It's like, it's like there's this, there's this part that's like— and I think this is kind of where I, I'm, I'm trying to put my finger on is, well, there's something underneath all these things. And again, there's just the language around it is like, seek first his kingdom. And there's this part that's sort of like, okay, there's something, there's something more than I can see. So you almost have to kind of open yourself up to, it's like, I don't see things as they actually are. And so there's kind of like, so you almost have to kind of like, I don't know whether it's like time to sit on my couch or not to sit on my couch. And sometimes you have to do the wrong thing in order to get to the right place.

[35:28] Matt: Or time to take a risk and speak up and say something controversial versus no time to be quiet and listen and wait.

[35:34] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the, and I think that's why it's easiest to describe that as a spirit, is like listening to the spirit of this, of the, of the time and or the situation. And I think that's kind of more of like the, like, how do you get into that place? Sometimes by doing a thing, you get into that place, but sometimes by not doing anything, and sometimes by doing the wrong thing, you get to that place.

[36:01] Matt: Well, it's sort of like the story of Pinocchio. Pinocchio wants to become a real boy, and what does his journey include? It includes a conscience. His conscience in Jiminy Cricket. And his, his conscience is kind of a shitty conscience at first. Like, his conscience has to develop as they go through life together. And so I think, well, how do you get into that place? I think you, you, you start listening to your conscience. You ask yourself a question. It isn't exactly yourself that answers it. It's something like your conscience So maybe it's God, maybe it's, you know, I don't know exactly what it is, but I do know that it's something sort of other and you have to listen and take it seriously. Does that mean that you're going to do the right thing or that your conscience is telling you the right thing? Not necessarily. Your conscience has to mature just like you do. But I think that when you say like, okay, what, you know, in this working example that we're playing with, it's like, what would be a good use of my time for the next 3 hours? You have to really listen because I think what you'll notice, and then this is like about your conscience, is you don't really like it very much, right? It's telling you to do things that you don't want to do and not to do things that you want to do. And I think you have to listen to it. And then sometimes when you do seriously listen to it and you sort of execute on the plan that you come up with, you're like, oh, this wasn't the right thing. Okay, back to the drawing board. Where did I go wrong there? We have to, we have to learn together how we're going to grow in discernment and grow in wisdom. But I think that there's this aspect of the human soul, this aspect of the human psyche, maybe where when our conscience is at odds with us, especially when it's about things that we want, especially when it's hedonistic things, you know, pleasure, comfort, um, whatever. We're kind of mad at it, you know, which is why you— I think why you see such, like, in an increasingly secular culture, prohibition of anything is taboo. It's like, we should be able to do whatever we want to do. And that is the case laid out by Dostoevsky, is that if there is no God, man should be permitted anything. This is the, you know, the alternative. And so when we ask ourselves questions, we ask a question of our conscience, or we ask a question of God, and we get an answer, a lot of times we're like, well, I don't like that answer, I don't want to do that. And so we ignore the answer. And in ignoring the answer, I think we also set ourselves up to ignore even asking the question moving forward. And so you stop maturing, your conscience stops maturing, your discernment shrinks instead of grows.

[39:20] Michael: So this is interesting. I, and I feel like where we're, we're hitting on some things that I don't really know what words to use. And I think you were kind of dancing in between them in this. It sounded like you were kind of, I felt like having the same problem, like conscious, soul, you know, then sort of like this idea of God or spirit or, and it's like, and I also liked how you said like your conscience has to mature and grow also. And so, That kind of just begs the question, is like, if your conscious also needs to grow and mature, it's like, well, what is your conscious responding to? And it's almost like, again, I don't put words in your mouth, but as you were describing that, I was like, it's like, it's not that your conscience is right, but it's learning. And it's kind of like that in-between stage of like actually listening to something that's actually beyond your conscious. You know, because like sometimes your conscience will come up with stuff. And again, I don't know exactly what that means. And it's not really complete or even right. But it's like, it's kind of like starts to kind of tap on you and say, hey, actually, I don't know if you're, I don't know if you're really listening to this other thing over here. And like, I would, I would put that as God. But so it's, it's sort of like this in-between muscle that has to be exercised in order to actually get stronger and to learn to listen better. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I don't know exactly how to kind of bridge these different gaps. But if I were to put it out, just kind of plain speak is sort of like, like God is speaking to every individual. But we have our own ideas about how the world is and how the world works. And there's this thing in between. That when God is speaking to us and we have our own wants and desires and ideas about how reality works, that is sort of like the buffer between the two. You know, it's like, it's sort of like it's validating in one respect in some of the things that we do. And it's also contradicting the things that we're doing. And like, it almost, it almost like holds the tension between like us acting in the world and God speaking to us. Does that make any sense at all? I'm trying— there's something in this and I'm trying to kind of put my finger on that.

[41:56] Matt: Yeah, let's drive toward it. Try to refine it. Try saying it again.

[42:04] Michael: Sing it.

[42:04] Matt: Singing it. Try singing it.

[42:09] Michael: Oh, I love that. Well, it's just, it's a tension that I have in my, in my, in my own mind is like, like I'm, I'm going into the world and I see that I interact with it and that I'm always, I'm not always, I might even have good intentions in some of this, but I'm never really, it's never really right or correct. And it's like it's always being refined. And sometimes I don't want to listen to that refinement and I just want to do whatever it is that I want to do. And then that's kind of where that conscious idea comes in. It's sort of like it kind of pokes on you like, uh, dude, don't be lazy. It can even come like almost negative, you know, in some reason, in some respect, as like using words like lazy. It's like, yeah, actually it's— maybe that's not the right word for it, but that's the way that your conscious is coming at you, you know. And so But, but as your conscious gets more refined, it starts to hear of like, hey, how do you want to spend your time? Okay, well, I'll make a list of how I want to spend my time. It's like, okay, that, that works. At least we're kind of like, you know, pointing in a direction that you're, you're, you're looking to be helpful in some way, you know. And then this other part says, it's like, okay, well, it's not about the list. It's about what are you giving your attention to?

[43:36] Matt: Like, what do you—

[43:37] Michael: and so it's like there's this refinement, but each step of that refinement, it's not necessarily bad or good, but it's just sort of like, it's like a muscle that's being exercised. And if you kind of, I feel like if you take that to its fullest extent, you kind of have what I would picture Jesus doing is like kind of having that openness and refinement that is, you know, willing to wait, willing to act, and like, but doing those in the proper way.

[44:12] Matt: This example came into my mind. I remember as a young kid, a very young kid, there was a period of time when we'd be in the car. I'm in the car with my parents. And as it happens when you're in the car with a bunch of people, somebody says, "Oh my gosh, look at that." And there was a period of time when I was young enough where I could never see the thing that they were pointing at. Right? I was just too slow. The world was too big. I was too small. By the time I was trying to look forward, it was past. Right? I saw my kids do this when they were young too. And at some point your kids grow out of it. You can be in the car with them. You can say, "Hey, look at that." And they look at it and they say, "Oh, that's cool." You know, and there was a time when I grew out of it and I was just thinking, well, how is it that I went from not being able to see the thing somebody was pointing to, to being able to see? And it's like, you know, maybe you're, if you're trying to engineer a solution to it, your first thing might be, well, constantly be scanning the environment and inventorying everything, making an inventory list of everything out in the environment so that somebody points something out, you're like, got an index, and you can like find it. You know, it's like, no, that's not what you do. The world's far too large and far too complicated. It's like, no, you pay attention to the people around you, and you do that by participating in the conversation. You notice where they're looking, because where they're looking, where they're pointing, is informative of where the conversation is going. And then depending on the context of what you're talking about, where you're looking, where the spirit of the cabin of the car is going, somebody points something out and you can just sort of instantly go, "Oh yeah, I see it," because you're a part of it, you're participating in it. And I think that's what you're talking about.

[46:10] Michael: That's interesting.

[46:11] Matt: You're saying, no, I don't know You know, reality is, is somewhat opaque to me. I don't see reality as it is. I see reality as I want it to be. I see reality as I wish it would be. I see reality as a reflection of, of my own, uh, resentments and my own disappointments. I see it in all these different ways that, you know, are all falsifiable. So it's like, what do you do? Well, you participate. You participate in reality with the people around you. It's like you saying, I've got to finish this conversation, get on to the next thing, and then you go, wait, that's not reality. That's, that's my hopes, fears, expectations, anxiety, all of these things. Reality is right in front of me, this person talking to me. And so it's like you reorient to what's there, you know?

[47:07] Michael: Or even at that moment, because I mean, it's like sometimes you do need to— hey, I, I really need to move on to this other thing.

[47:12] Matt: Yeah.

[47:12] Michael: And you do that. It's like, but I, I feel like at that, at that point I'm putting way too many intelligent words on this because it was a lot fumbling more than that. It's like, I was like, oh no, I've, I've been using that as an excuse and I need to see— in that case, in this case, it's like Well, it's just like, I'm sorry, I actually saw a pattern of using that as an excuse.

[47:36] Matt: Yeah.

[47:37] Michael: And it was no longer true and that I needed to reorient myself. And I think that, 'cause I remember the situation, that was about 3 weeks ago. It was kind of like, I was like, oh, kind of like waking up to that, like, I have a whole nother agenda that is no longer relevant. You know, it's like, which at some point that agenda was relevant. Like, okay, no, you're moving, Michael. You need to, you need to move and go. And it's like, and when did it become irrelevant? I don't know. And that's kind of whenever I saw that, I was like, oh shoot, at some point I missed it. It's like I missed the turn. I just remember whenever you and I missed a turn coming back from Big Bend, and in order to make it the U-turn, I think we had to like drive another like 10 miles or something like that to turn around. And it's like, that's kind of what it felt like. It was sort of like, oh man, I missed the turn probably like 10 miles ago. And it's like, I need to, I need to, I'm gonna take this exit now.

[48:42] Matt: When I was in college, I was spending a lot of time driving back and forth between Tennessee and Texas. And because I was playing in a band in Dallas and I was still going to school in Nashville, and, uh, this is before probably I even had a cell phone.

[49:00] Michael: Totally.

[49:02] Matt: And so you just knew the way, you know, you looked it up ahead of time and maybe printed out MapQuest or whatever. Um, you just had to know, it's like, I'm gonna be on this highway for this amount of time and get on this highway. And I remember there was one night, it was late at night I'm driving and all of a sudden I was like, hold up, I'm on the wrong highway. How long have I been on this highway? And it turns out I had driven like, I think like 90 miles.

[49:29] Michael: Oh wow.

[49:30] Matt: Down the wrong road. And so I was like, son of a bitch. It's added 3 hours to my trip. And really all you could do is go, well, at least I got some good CDs.

[49:42] Michael: You know, you didn't have to reroute you to the best route to get back.

[49:45] Matt: You just had to backtrack.

[49:47] Michael: Totally.

[49:48] Matt: You know, and there's something to that though that's like, it reorients you to say, well, all right, I've got this time and I'm gonna spend it the only way I can spend it. So we're doing this.

[50:05] Michael: Yeah, but it is, it's, it's kind of, I mean, one thing to do during that situation is kind goes back to what we were talking about before, was like, you beat yourself up. It's like, oh man, how can I be so stupid? When did I get off track, right? And it's like, and then, then it all becomes about when you got off track rather than like, uh, I had a couple of examples of Brother Lawrence this, this week.

[50:27] Matt: Um, explain what that is because you mentioned it earlier and I never heard it.

[50:30] Michael: Uh, so Brother Lawrence is this monk who basically, like, he, like, what is worship? Like, what is to kind of spend time with God? And you know, for him it was like doing the dishes.

[50:42] Matt: Like he wrote about this?

[50:43] Michael: Yeah, he wrote about this. And so it wasn't like you had to go to church or go here or go there or spend hours in prayer or something like that. But it's like he was finding God in all the little things, like whether it be doing dishes, sweeping floors. And I remember reading this like 10 or 15 years ago. What the hell am I, 48? Shit. 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Damn, I'm old, dude. Uh, but I, I remember that, that part is like, is like sometimes like, like, uh, we start to feel like we have to like return to some sort of like formula. And it's really the main thing is, is just like reorienting yourselves. Like, oh, I can do that right here, right now. It's like where I'm at, just change my attention. Like, what am I giving my attention to? And, and I like the Brother Lawrence thing. It's like, it's in the simple things of like doing the dishes. I can just be like, like, oh man, thank you God, this is really cool. Like, I'm, I'm thankful to be able to do dishes for my family and that, you know, they're going to be happy that there's not— even though they might not see it— that there's no, right, shit all over the place, you know? It's like Um, or, you know, it just can take you into places that are, that are so different of like, like, oh wow, this is a clean plate. Like, it was dirty. Like, like, that's, that's a lot nicer than eating off a dirty plate, you know? It's just like so many, so many places that when you shift your attention to like, oh, I'm fucking doing the dishes, no one ever does the dishes, I always have to do dishes, rather, you know? It's like, and then starting to see as an opportunity You need to connect with like maybe the value that you're adding to your family or the value that, um, of just doing a good job at having a clean home or something like that.

[52:34] Matt: Man, what a— what a proposal, like, to express astonishment at a clean dish.

[52:45] Michael: Yeah.

[52:49] Matt: What is it that you think keeps us from that? I mean, God, so much. You know, I have a toddler right now and toddlers are, they're just astonished at everything. Everything's unbelievable. Can you believe this? It's like, Dad, look at me, I'm doing it. The thing that she's doing is standing on something that's slightly elevated off the floor. She's astonished. Why do we lose that?

[53:24] Michael: Well, I think that's a part is like, is like you have to reorient yourself. And even I do this little walk around, uh, every day. I probably do 2 or 3 of these a day. But, and again, just the last 3 weeks, I just kind of have had sort of like that tapping on the shoulder of like, hey, pay attention. And I was walking by this person and I just like— again, it's Texas, so you do this anyways most times. Like, you say, hi, how are you doing? You know, it's like— and they just kind of like— they just kind of like shook out of like whatever world they were in and just like, oh, hi. And you just see like this sort of like, yeah, you recognized me, you know? And I was just like, man, how much good can I bring into the world by just saying hi?

[54:09] Matt: Yeah.

[54:10] Michael: And not just hi as like a formality, but just like Hey, I see you.

[54:14] Matt: You know, there's a, um, smoothie place here near my house that I go to fairly often, at least once a week maybe. And I, I walked in, I don't know, 3 or 4 days ago to— and I always order online and I just go in and pick it up. And I went to pick it up and the girl behind the counter, as I'm walking up, she walks up, she goes, hey Matt, and it just hands me my order. And I go "Hey, thanks for remembering my name." And then as I was walking out, I thought, "What is that? Why am I thankful that she knew my name? Why did I thank her for remembering me?" Yeah. And I'm not sure I exactly know, but I do know that it's true. Like, I did feel thankful that she remembered me. That was meaningful. Why is that meaningful?

[55:06] Michael: Dude, I love this. We've been talking about a lot of this with customer service the last 3 or 4 months, and, and like, what is good customer service? And then you start trying to like make this formula about what good customer service is, and, and it's like, that's okay. I think it's sometimes you need a formula to kind of point you in the right direction, but it's like And it just, it just kind of like, I wish I could explain this a lot better. It's like, no, it's not about the formula. It's like, but whenever someone actually sees the impact that they have on somebody else, like that girl that, hey, thanks for remembering my name.

[55:44] Matt: Yeah.

[55:44] Michael: It's like, I feel like if she was awake, and I don't know who she is, but it's like awake, this is like, it's like that actually changes her because it's like, oh, it's not just about saying, hey Matt, here's your drink. It's, it's like there was a connection, there's a, there was a relational connection.

[56:00] Matt: Totally.

[56:01] Michael: And, and I think if, especially in customer service, if you see and experience that, I mean, there's nothing more— like, I love that about when I worked at JP's Java, and I really experienced that, is people, you can just change people's worlds.

[56:18] Matt: Well, and I love your point that it changes you too, because the inverse seems useful to me here. I think we all are familiar with being out in public and seeing somebody that you kind of know and going, I'm gonna avoid that person. Maybe I don't quite remember their name, or I don't quite remember their wife's name, or X, Y, and Z, whatever. For whatever reason, I just avoid that person. I don't think we've all done it, and I would say that we probably would all report that there's shame associated with it. You avoid that person, you go on, and you feel ashamed. It's like, what is that about? Yeah, maybe you just didn't want to talk to that person. Well, maybe that's true, but it's like, it's sort of like denying the song or denying the good idea and not giving it birth. It's like, it's recognizing something and then choosing to not recognize it. It's like undoing the spirit of reality in a sense.

[57:21] Michael: Or even that's kind of a— kind of touches on what the Kingdom of Heaven is too.

[57:25] Matt: Yeah. So the opposite of that would be when I recognize something, I recognize it, which is to give it life. If the opposite— if we're not recognizing or reneging on your recognition is undoing the spirit of reality, then recognizing something and saying its name is bolstering the spirit of reality. And so it's like, I think when that woman said, hey Matt, here's your smoothie, and bypassed all of this, hey, I'm picking up from Matt, whatever, blah blah blah, it's like she, she said, we live in reality, and in this reality I recognize you and I know you. I don't need to ask you for your name. I don't need to know which smoothie is yours. I know which one's yours. That's, that's the participation in the reality.

[58:16] Michael: Yeah.

[58:17] Matt: And that, that does change you. That is the proper posture to take. Yeah. And the improper posture is, I recognize you, but I'm not going to say it because I have a thousand snakes inside of me and What is that? I'm— I am, uh, shackled to the snakes inside of me. The snakes of resentment and bitterness and disappointment and shame and, uh, whatever. You know, we all get so ashamed when we forget someone's name, and there's no shame in it. It's like, it's so easy to say, remind me your name. Good to see you again. Remind me your name. That's so easy.

[59:09] Michael: But isn't it interesting? So there's another aspect to this of where you taste this thing that's good, like that experience you just, you just said, and like, you know, like on the other side, the, the barista or, or juice person at this, in a sense, is like It's like, oh, I just like—

[59:27] Matt: Is that the official name? I don't know. Juice person.

[59:30] Michael: The juicer. It's like you experience that and you're like, oh, I want more of that. But then it's interesting too, because then you start to manufacture it and it actually doesn't reward you the same every time. And I think this is the difference between the idea of the kingdom of heaven versus sort of like you taste it and you then you acknowledge it as something as the kingdom of heaven. And then you— but you turn it into almost like hell. It's sort of like, I'm now— I'm now I'm going after the experience of that rather than seeking heaven, which is outside of yourself. Does that make sense?

[60:07] Matt: Well, that's how you turn an icon into an idol.

[60:10] Michael: Totally.

[60:11] Matt: As you say, I've tasted it, I know it, I know how to make it. Nope, you're off.

[60:19] Michael: And then it's— and then also it becomes—

[60:20] Matt: yeah, the thing sours and it will break your heart.

[60:24] Michael: So I think this is— this— these are things that start to teach us and kind of go back to— you're talking about your conscious and exercising it— is, is you start to learn this whole part of like, oh wow, it's not about the thing, it's about what I'm pointing to or what I'm seeking after is something outside of myself.

[60:45] Matt: Would you say it's about your posture and relationship to the thing?

[60:49] Michael: And I think, again, kind of like what we've been talking about for a while now is like, it's like there's nothing that can fill that gap other than God. So it's like, so when you put God in his proper place and that you're seeking him, his kingdom, it's like then all those things align correctly, you know? But then if you, but then if you at any one point that you then start to seek the thing itself, it becomes, it starts to spoil. And I've seen this a lot in customer service. It's like people experience that sort of like, reward of thankfulness. But then whenever it's not, then it's not reciprocated, it becomes soured rather than being like, oh, they can't see it. But you know what? I'm going to bring, I'm going to bring it to them every single time, even though they can't see it. And that's something different. It's like you're going beyond the person themselves and the reaction to you that you maybe didn't get that. But the funny thing is, is when you reorient yourself to that position, you actually do get the reward, even though it, it didn't, it didn't come from the person, if that makes sense. It's like doing the dishes.

[62:02] Matt: Yeah, yeah, it seems like, uh, the, the moral of the story is that your reward is in the kingdom of heaven. It isn't here. Which I think you just made me see something different because I think as a younger person— I don't even want to say as a younger person, there's just been times in my life when I've thought this whole idea of your reward is in the kingdom of heaven. It's like, I'm gonna do a bunch of good shit here and not ever get recognized for it, and then when I die, I'm gonna have some unspecified reward. Like, this seems like a bullshit deal to me.

[62:38] Michael: Totally.

[62:39] Matt: You know, but you're actually like, you're shedding a new light on that, which is you do get the reward. The kingdom of heaven is here and now if you are seeking it. To consistently be kind and generous to the person who can't see it does reward you here and now.

[63:05] Michael: Yeah.

[63:05] Matt: As long as you are seeking the kingdom of heaven, which is to say, I'm doing it for them, but I'm doing it for something greater than them as well. I'm aligning to something greater. I'm aligning to their greater self and to my greater self and to the greater kingdom of heaven, which is undefinable and inexplicable to me. But if I align myself to that, I do seem to be rewarded by it. And it's not— it's like, well, it is in the kingdom of heaven. It's just not in that sort of antiquated idea of heaven as the place you go after you die. Yeah, it's like, no, there's some very confusing passages in the Bible about the kingdom of heaven being here and now. What the hell does that mean? What the heaven does that mean? Well, I think you just kind of explained it there.

[63:57] Michael: That's interesting. I love how you expound on that because I don't think I saw as clearly as you just said, like, but that makes a lot of sense to me. Like, and, and that's where it doesn't sour, because it's like, because like there's a part where that then can be extractive of the other person. Like, I now I'm looking for validation of your response to me rather than I'm actually responding to something greater than you. And so whether you respond to me or not, I'm still receiving my reward.

[64:27] Matt: Yeah, I'm a little hesitant to share this example, but I think I want to because I think it's I think it's good. Um, you know, raising my first 3 kids as a single parent was really difficult, in part because my divorce was very contentious, and I think that their mother was telling them a lot of things that weren't true. And I made the choice to not fight that battle with my, with my kids, to not engage in that and just to, to make the evidence of my love be my love, not the reporting of it. You know what I mean? Not my ex-wife's idea of it, not my kids' idea of it even, but just, I'm going to love you. The best way that I know how, always, and work on that and struggle with that. And I think the thing is, that was really, really hard because it's hard to feel falsely accused or falsely represented and not want to defend yourself.

[65:43] Michael: Totally.

[65:44] Matt: Um, it's hard to love children who are a constant reminder of a person that gravely injured you. You know, I see my ex-wife and my kids all of the time. But here's the thing, is that by doing that, by saying, I'm not going to love you because of what I get in return, I'm not going to love you in order to correct the narrative, I'm not going to love you in order to What's like— there's all kinds of options to get back at my ex or to prove something to my ex or to prove something to the teachers or the, the Child Protective Services or all these other things, right? No, I'm going to love you because I love you. I fell more deeply in love with my kids because I wasn't doing it for anything else. I wasn't even doing it to get anything back. But here's the thing. It taught me to love my kids, and I did get something back. I got two things back. One, I fell more deeply in love. My love was deepened by doing that. And then two, as they've gotten older, they've given it back with interest, and they have said some things to me more recently where they validated that. They've said things to me like, basically like, your love has always been unconditional. It hasn't mattered. There's nothing I could do to break it. And I'm so thankful for that. And I just— one of my daughters wrote me that in, I think, a Father's Day card a couple of years ago. And I just wept. I just felt so thankful.. And I also thought, but also I didn't need it. Yeah, I would have— I'm so glad that I fought to love, not for what I got in return, because what I got in return was far greater than what I thought I would have been getting had I been doing it for all of these other reasons. So that's another example of, well, then that's the kingdom of heaven here and now. Your reward is— it's here now.

[68:03] Michael: What's funny, because I mean, it seemed like how Jesus talks about, like, you know, to give and not let your— know what you're like, with your— what your right hand is doing, or something like that. It's just sort of like this, this part that's like, you, you get something if you do it without expecting something in return. Like, your actual return is greater than anything that you could have. Like, yeah, again, because I mean, it's like, you know, it's like, I want to be known as responsible. I want to be known as, you know, thorough, or or detail-oriented or whatever it is. It's like, and I want people to know that, or like, you know, I get up at certain time in the morning and I'm here way before anybody else. So if I happen to go home at 3, it's 'cause I've been here for 10 hours already beforehand. You know, it's like, it's like you want all this sort of like validation. And it's like, and not that the validation is necessarily bad, but it's just sort of, I see my heart so many times want that and expect that. And it's just disappointed because I was looking for, in religious language, is like an earthly return rather than a heavenly return. And I think that's the part that whenever you're saying, like, I mean, I got to see you throughout the whole entire process and there was many times where I was like, dude, you just need to tell your kids what the fuck is going on. Like in my heart, I really wanted you to just lay it out. But I think there's also— and not that you did this personally perfectly, but I do see that there's— there, there has been a reward for you as far as like being so consistent and not throwing your ex under the bus, you know?

[69:47] Matt: Yeah.

[69:47] Michael: And, and that was hard, man. It was hard to watch, honestly. I was like, it's like, forever. Yeah.

[69:57] Matt: And I, I don't want to—

[69:58] Michael: no, okay, yeah, we won't go into it.

[70:01] Matt: It isn't about that. It's not about my ex, and it's not about, um, even saying I did the right thing. I don't— totally— I don't know that I did the right thing. What I do know is that I've been utterly astonished at what I have gotten in return, because it wasn't what I would have wanted in return. I, I'm not even smart enough or imaginative enough to know that that's what I wanted.

[70:29] Michael: Yeah.

[70:30] Matt: But there's some things that my— you were there at my birthday, um, just a couple of weeks ago.

[70:34] Michael: I was about to bring that up.

[70:35] Matt: Yeah. And my kids said some things to me. This is very— I don't know how common this is for people to do, but it's something that my family does that my— most of my mom was there and we're all at dinner and she says, you know, if it's somebody's birthday, she'll generally say, let's all go around and say something we like about the birthday person, which is, you know, I I imagine you'd probably hate that.

[70:58] Michael: We do it in our family. You do too?

[70:59] Matt: Yeah. I mean, it can be very uncomfortable for everybody involved because, shoot, I got to think of something good to say, or I've got to figure out how to respond when somebody says something nice and good. And there's just like— you have to learn how to do it. It's hard.

[71:16] Michael: Yeah.

[71:16] Matt: It's surprisingly hard. But my kid said something to me at that dinner that I just was like, I That's better than anything I could have ever asked for. I'm not even smart enough to know that I wanted that.

[71:29] Michael: Yeah.

[71:29] Matt: Or to know that that would have been good.

[71:30] Michael: Or to manufacture it.

[71:32] Matt: It's better than if God said, hey, what best thing, best case scenario you want from your kids? Give it to me. I wouldn't have asked for it. I wouldn't have known to ask for that. It's like God gave me something better than I knew to imagine. That's crazy. And through my kids. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[71:59] Michael: Yeah, I love that. Uh, the conversation I heard earlier today was like also talking about parents, and, and it's like, I know you know this, but it's— you don't do things always correctly, and there's things that we will have to apologize later in life to our kids about, you know, it's like we don't even know what they are. Maybe we know some of the things, you know, but there's like a— there's really like a humility that comes with being a parent that, that's kind of an opportunity because you really do— like your kids reflect yourself back to you, both the good things and the bad things. And I think that's like, I think that's the really hard thing. But again, but that's what teaches you about what the kingdom of heaven is. And it comes with like a little bit of a bitter pill and also the sweetness. You know, it's like you see how far you fall short of that, but then you also taste how good it is. And I think that's, that's the part that's really difficult because like sometimes when we experience the bitterness of like how— like, because once you start talking about like what the kingdom of God is, it's like there's— it's pretty inevitable that you're going to also experience how far short you fall of that. And as a parent, you kind of get a taste of that. It's like you can be a good parent, but also you see all the things you did not do well. So I think that's a really difficult place to to come to terms with, you know, and kind of comes back to that idea we were talking about earlier about using the word conscious is like exercising that and being able to confront that sort of how far you fall short of that ideal, but also how much you experience of it when you put your attention to it, when you turn back It's not about getting it right. It's about always turning back to it.

[74:13] Matt: Yeah.

[74:13] Michael: And fixing your eyes back on it. And like that. And part of that is acknowledging falling short. And part of it is, is the experience of what it actually is, you know? I think that's, that's kind of what the kingdom of heaven is. It's very exposing and it's also very rewarding.

[74:33] Matt: Rewarding far beyond. Your merit.

[74:37] Michael: Totally.

[74:38] Matt: Yeah, far beyond your imagination.

[74:39] Michael: Or even what she says, like, is like, I could not have like manufactured that. Like, try to be a good parent, good luck, right? You're gonna wear yourself the fuck out. Yeah. And you see that so much with parents. I mean, I experienced it. Like, I want to be a good parent. It's like, well, I gotta show up at this, I gotta do that, right? It's like, then you're just task-oriented.

[74:58] Matt: And well, and those— I think those people end up being the worst parents. And often, I've seen this quite often, when they ultimately fail and wear themselves out, they just resort to demanding that everybody think of them as a good parent. And their life revolves around receiving the feedback that they're a good parent. And if you don't give them the feedback that they're a good parent, then now you're on their bad list and you're gonna get ostracized.

[75:24] Michael: Isn't it funny because it does end up kind of like falling off the, the cliff on either side is like, one is like, fuck that, I can't do, I can't be a good parent anyway, so I'm not going to give, or, or I want to be such a good parent that I'm not gonna make any of the mistakes my parents made, and I'm gonna give my kids the life I never had. And then you just wear yourself the fuck out.

[75:50] Matt: Yeah, it's like falling off the cliff on either side. On one side there's nihilism, on the other side there's totalitarianism.

[75:58] Michael: Yeah, so true. So I think this has been, this has been really helpful for me. Like, it's kind of like, I feel like I'm getting a better picture of like what the kingdom of heaven is. Like, what does that mean? Like here and now, not only a taste of what is to come, but like, because like, you know, we danced around a lot of these things because that are like, they're almost like they're good practical steps. Like, hey, if I were to get into coffee, how would you— how would I do that? I was like, okay, here's some practical steps. It's like, but that's not really like starting a business. It's like, it's so much more than that. But there are practical steps to move towards that. But at some point, those practical steps actually no longer apply. And I think that's like, like, make a list, you know? It's like, oh, actually, that's— or like, I'm sorry, I always go back to this, but when you were going through your divorce, and it's like, just get up and eat and take a walk around the block. That's all.

[76:58] Matt: Yeah.

[76:59] Michael: It's like, well, that's not a life to live.

[77:01] Matt: No.

[77:02] Michael: But you know what?

[77:02] Matt: Right now, right now, that's really helpful. That's life-saving.

[77:06] Michael: It's life-saving.

[77:06] Matt: Yeah.

[77:07] Michael: And so it's, it's kind of, it's like paying attention to like, no, right now this is life-saving, life-saving, and then I can do this. And it's like, at some point, actually, it's, it's inhibiting. It's like, you, yeah, it's not helpful at all. Right.

[77:26] Matt: Well, it's a crazy beautiful life full of mystery and complication, and it's a son of a bitch sometimes.

[77:36] Michael: I love it though, because I think that's the part where I think you and I keep kind of coming back to. It's like, it's not— it really does have to do with something that is outside of ourselves.

[77:50] Matt: Mm-hmm.

[77:51] Michael: And if you don't put your attention on that, then everything becomes sterile and not life-giving. And I think that's experimentally true. You know, anytime you start something for the first time, it's going to be very life-giving for a period of time, and then it becomes sterile. And I feel like that should actually be a lesson to us, not I'm doing it wrong. It's like, no, because what you're doing is trying to point you to something beyond. It's not about just— it's not about getting in shape. It's not about eating well. It's not about, you know.

[78:27] Matt: Yeah. Do you mean— you said sterile. Do you mean stale?

[78:32] Michael: Oh, stale.

[78:32] Matt: Okay.

[78:34] Michael: Well, sterile too.

[78:34] Matt: Does sterile work?

[78:36] Michael: Yeah.

[78:37] Matt: What does sterile mean?

[78:38] Michael: Like impotent.

[78:39] Matt: Impotent.

[78:40] Michael: Yeah. It's like at first you're shooting, it's not doing anything.

[78:43] Matt: Yeah, there's nothing in there to do anything.

[78:45] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[78:48] Matt: Wait, what about shooting blanks?

[78:50] Michael: I don't know, if you're sterile, you're shooting blanks, you can't get someone pregnant, you know? I see.

[78:58] Matt: Yeah, I see. Yeah, I see, I see. Yeah, yeah. To sterilize something is to Remove its gumption. Mhm.

[79:13] Michael: Its purpose.

[79:14] Matt: Its purpose. Yeah. All right, should we end it there?

[79:20] Michael: Let's do it. All right. All right, thank you guys. Cheers. Always fun. Love you out there. Love y'all. Gracias.