Are You Feeling Semiquincentennial?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Okay, we are doing it.

[0:25] Michael: We're doing it.

[0:27] Matt: Hey.

[0:27] Michael: Hey. To the shores. To the shores. Yeah.

[0:31] Matt: Are you feeling semi quincentennial? Semi quincentennial. I feel like that should be like, a. Like an adjective or something.

[0:43] Michael: Sounds like another letter in the Alphabet of the LGBTQ. Semi quintennial. LGBTQ.

[0:49] Matt: Semiquintennial. Um. That's fine. 250 years.

[0:57] Michael: Yeah. That's crazy.

[0:58] Matt: This Saturday. It is crazy. I mean, it's crazy, I guess, to us, but, like, stuff's so much older in Europe. Does it seem crazy to them?

[1:07] Michael: Well, it's not even just that. It's. It's more of, like, 250 years of a single government. You know, you're starting to get into. You know, was it. Rome was five or six hundred years. But even that's kind of questionable because it's like how, you know, the fall and the breakup and, you know, how does that. You know, but still, I mean, not very many governments or entities stay together that long, you know, especially under one constitution. Because even with pharaohs and stuff like that, it might have been, you know, those people were in power. But you're talking about very different governments in each one of those. You know, they're not surrounded by a constitution or something like that.

[1:51] Matt: Yeah, that's very, very cool. I feel like there should be more excitement in the air about it. Like, America's awesome.

[2:02] Michael: Yeah.

[2:03] Matt: I love all of these people coming over for the first time to America to watch the World cup and just talking about, like, holy crap, it's awesome here. I feel like maybe just because of the political climate in our country or

[2:17] Michael: just the media in our country, maybe

[2:18] Matt: it's just the media.

[2:19] Michael: Yeah.

[2:22] Matt: People are ashamed to sort of celebrate, maybe, or just reticent.

[2:28] Michael: I've had talking about that. It's experienced a few times where everyone's like, kind of, like bumming on it, you know? And I was just like, no, this is 250 years. This is a big deal, guys. Like, I'm proud to be an American. You know, it's like. And it's funny. Cause I think when someone says. When they think you say you're proud to be American, they're like, oh, you're a Republican or something. That it's like, no.

[2:50] Matt: When did that happen? That happened recently.

[2:52] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting.

[2:52] Matt: I don't think it used to be that way. At some point, the left decided that the word patriot was A bad word? Yeah, I think it was around. I think it was maybe even as recently as like 2024. Yeah, I guess maybe it was at the end of Trump's first term.

[3:09] Michael: I think it was. It's kind of during Trump's or end of his Trump his term. Kind of like that's became a neg

[3:14] Matt: thing that the left decided that the American flag was a symbol of the right and didn't want to have anything to do with it. I wonder. So there's all this anti American sentiment. These three congressmen that just got elected in New York.

[3:30] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[3:31] Matt: Who are all like, I guess they're under the democratic socialist banner. I'm not clear exactly what that is. Dsa.

[3:41] Michael: Democratic Socialists of America of America.

[3:43] Matt: All three are openly anti America. Like, one of them said that she uses the Amer. She would use the American flag as a napkin to wipe her face. I'm like, what, what is this? I mean, A, why would you even want to be in Congress if you feel that way? And B, who, why. Why are people electing these people?

[4:07] Michael: Well, they say like only 10% of the. Of New York votes. So it's like. And they're very active. Like, it's a very active organization. And then, you know, if you promise people free stuff, yeah, I'm voting for you.

[4:21] Matt: It makes me. It just makes me so sad that there's so. There's seemingly so much anti American sentiment inside of our own country. But then I wonder, is there really or is that just. Are they very, very loud?

[4:33] Michael: I think they're very loud. I don't think they're. I don't think that's really true.

[4:36] Matt: And they've kind of kowtowed us into not objecting because we kind of don't know what's up and down anymore.

[4:44] Michael: Well, also, it's like I don't want to be bothered with, with you. You know, it's like, if it's like you don't like, okay, fine. It's like that's actually the freedom you have in the U.S. is to not like the U.S. it's like, that's your right, you know, But I don't know. But I think I feel like I've seen. And maybe it's just because of my feed too. And maybe I'm kind of drawn to that right now just because I'm about the whole, you know, 250, you know, it's like. And just kind of, it draws more of those types of posts of people, you know, just being proud to be an American. And.

[5:20] Matt: Yeah, I do see a lot of that. And I. I honestly feel like the more of it you see, it's like, the more permission it gives you to sort of participate in that.

[5:33] Michael: Totally.

[5:33] Matt: And I don't know how other people are seeing it, but I feel like, you know, people from other countries coming here and celebrating America and saying America's awesome, hopefully gives us all some permission to be able to say that ourselves, because it really is true. This is an astounding place to be.

[5:53] Michael: Yeah. There's also some. I mean, maybe there's some, like, guilt in it, too. It's like. Like, okay, we do have it really good in the US like, you know, as far as. Like, even the poorest of us is way better than most other countries in the entire world, you know, and. And that's something that's hard to get a perspective of, is, like, how good you actually do have depends on what

[6:20] Matt: you compare it to. To. But where do you think that comes from? Like, what is that? Guilt about doing well?

[6:28] Michael: Yeah.

[6:28] Matt: Guilt about having something worth having.

[6:32] Michael: Yeah.

[6:34] Matt: It seems like. I mean, obviously I haven't been alive that long, but I can't. I can't imagine that people felt that way up until really just recently.

[6:46] Michael: Well, actually, I mean, the early Medici, like Cosmo de Medici, that was something that he. You know, his father is God. I always get his name wrong bodies. Botaritchi or something like that, and then Cosmo. But the whole thing was. Is like. It's like you rule from behind, because if you stick your head up, then it's sort of like it gets chopped off kind of thing. And so you don't never. You never flounce your wealth or your power, because once you do that, then people get resentful.

[7:16] Matt: Yeah.

[7:16] Michael: And then you saw his sons. His sons, Pierre and Lorenzo de Medici, you know, start to kind of, like, flaunt it. And that's whenever the Medici got in a lot of trouble, was because now there's something to direct your anger towards. I mean, even, like, Elon Musk, like, no one's talking about all the amazing things he's done. It's just. He's a trillionaire, and he shouldn't have a trillion dollars.

[7:41] Matt: Bernie, that's my pretty good.

[7:43] Michael: You know, it's like, what.

[7:45] Matt: You don't even.

[7:45] Michael: You're not even explaining, like, how he got there, you know, and the risk he took, and it's just sort of. So I think there's something about that, that.

[7:54] Matt: I guess there's nothing new about resentment in the Human heart. It's always been there.

[7:58] Michael: Totally.

[7:58] Matt: Yeah. Maybe it's just that, I don't know, political, we base political parties and campaigns on it now. We're pretty open about it.

[8:09] Michael: But you think about all that the US has accomplished. I mean, I think, you know, this is not to like diminish other countries, but I mean, just in the US it's like just the tech industry in general. You know, what, what has been, you know, everything from self driving cars, obviously China is doing these things too, but really the US has led a lot of the things in the 21st century and that's part of that, you know, allowing people the freedom to, to create and to fail and to, to make companies and, and also just a whole idea of property rights. You know, I think, you know, I've touched on this a few times over the years is this, you know, if you don't have confidence of the future, then it's really hard to build something that lasts or something that takes five, 10 or 20 years to come to, to light. Because you don't know if you're, if you're, if it's going to be taken from you or if the, yeah, if

[8:59] Matt: the investment's worth it, the government might,

[9:02] Michael: or the mafia might, or the cartel might take your land from you if you're too prosperous. And you know, it's like, it's just that the idea of property rights is something like, I mean, even with like the Mandavi thing right now they're doing rent control, it's like, why would you invest in property, especially apartments in New York City?

[9:22] Matt: Right.

[9:23] Michael: Like, most people don't understand like the upkeep that, that that takes. And it's not even just like, yes, you might be profitable for five or 10 years, but you know, at some point you're going to have to do a complete remodel of that space.

[9:36] Matt: Right.

[9:36] Michael: And that's, that's 30,000 to $300,000 to then make it marketable again and nice for the next, you know, decade or so.

[9:45] Matt: Right. And where's that money going to come from?

[9:48] Michael: Where's. Yeah, where's it going to come from? And I think that's, that's, that's a hard.

[9:52] Matt: You'll give it to me.

[9:53] Michael: Yeah, he's going to lose a lot of the pockets he's taking it from, though. Yeah, so, so I think, but I think that is the beautiful thing about the United States is that we've provided that opportunity for people to, to really take risks. And I think we've really Benefited from that over the years.

[10:12] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. You look at it, almost all of the sort of major technological advances and inventions and sort of milestones, whether it's the first powered flight or the first moon landing.

[10:26] Michael: Yeah.

[10:27] Matt: You know, that's been the US just been kicking ass for 250 years.

[10:33] Michael: Totally. Which is funny because then you'll hear people like, well, here's all the bad things. It's like, okay, we're also the cleanest dirty shirt in the laundry.

[10:44] Matt: Also true, as Johnny Cash would put it. But, you know, but also, it's like, you celebrate your family's birthdays, right? And we were talking about this last week. One of the things my mom likes to do is whosever birthday it is at the dinner table. She wants to go around and say something nice about the person.

[11:03] Michael: Yeah.

[11:04] Matt: It's like, how disordered would your family be if you do that? Somebody says something nice and I say, yeah, but he's also kind of a dick sometimes. It's like, well, okay, we all know that, but it's his birthday, you know, like, celebrate him. We don't need the counterfactuals. We're lifting up what is good, not pointing out what is bad. I think there's a time and a place to point out what is bad. Yeah.

[11:32] Michael: There's 355 other days of the year.

[11:34] Matt: Right. That you could lovingly. Hey, I think you kind of have a problem being a dick sometimes.

[11:39] Michael: Totally.

[11:41] Matt: Yeah. But it just. It feels worse than that, though, because it feels like there is a contingent of the Zeitgeist right now. There's sort of a spirit of the Western culture that it's sort of like the spcla, like, they couldn't find enough racism to fight, so they funded racist groups so that they could fight them. It's like, at some point, I think people couldn't find enough bad things about America, so they started rewriting the history, you know, and, like, really hyper focusing on certain things, like, you know, like slavery. Like, that's our original sin. It's the worst thing that's ever happened in the history of the world. And it's like, no, it is not. It's not even close to the worst instantiation of slavery in the history of the world. And also what's remarkable about the United States is not that it participated in that, but that it ended. Spilled the blood of what, nearly a million?

[12:48] Michael: I don't even know. Yeah, a lot.

[12:50] Matt: Men of our Own. Men, all Americans, you know, over that issue. Not to mention the UK's contribution to that, you know, going out onto the high seas to stop the slave trades because they found it so morally reprehensible. You know, that's what's remarkable.

[13:08] Michael: Yeah.

[13:09] Matt: If you're going to talk about slavery, sure. Talk about the evil of slavery, but also talk about the contribution that our ancestors made to end it, you know, pretty decisively.

[13:22] Michael: Yeah.

[13:23] Matt: But that gets left out because I guess there's more anti American sentiment than there is examples that, you know, sort of are cathartic to the anti American sentiment.

[13:36] Michael: Yeah. Or even just the melting pot. You know, it's like all these different groups came to the US and were super contentious too, in coming. You know, it's like whether you're Italian or Irish or whatever it might be and, you know, somehow we kind of ended up living together, you know. Yeah. So I think that's really quite amazing. I mean, that's just a testimony of the 13 colonies too, is like, here are these 13 colonies that are at odds with each other, you know, coming together and trying to form a pact. Yeah.

[14:11] Matt: It's really. I just learned this somewhat recently and maybe I've known it in the past, but, you know, apparently a large part of what slavery in the US was was indentured servitude. There was, you know, what we sort of think of as slavery, which is the transatlantic slave trade. But so many people wanted to move here and so many people from other countries and they couldn't because it's like to move to America in those days was extraordinarily expensive. It was a long process and, you know, you had to book passage on a boat that's going to take two months to get here. And a of people didn't survive the trip. And so there was basically businesses that popped up that, you know, would facilitate moving people to America who want. Who really wanted to come here. It's like you watch 1883, all these people coming from Poland and Germany and all of these other places to go on this hellish journey on this organ trail. It's like, why were they doing that? They were doing it for a better life. But apparently a lot of people would sell themselves into indentured servitude as passage as a way to get here, knowing that they were going to have to be a slave for a certain amount of time when they were here, but afterward they would be here and they would be, you know, free, I guess. So apparently I heard this. I think it was on a documentary. Matt Walsh has been making these documentaries. I've watched a few of them. Obviously he made Mia racist and what is a woman, but he's been making these what he calls real history with Matt Walsh. And he pointed out that, I guess it was like on the day that the Revolutionary War began, in, like the newspaper, there was an ad for catching runaway slaves. And George Washington had an ad in the paper that day, and it was for 11 runaway slaves. I think he said three of them were black and eight of them were white. And I think that, that I. He didn't say this, but I think that, you know, some of those people had voluntarily sold themselves into indentured servitude. Yeah, I think that's just really interesting. I mean, history is just. I guess it's natural that we end up with a caricature of it. And that caricature that we end up with is a reflection of our own sentiment about things, you know, so maybe it's no surprise that if you have anti American sentiment, then the caricature of history is going to reflect that.

[16:50] Michael: Yeah, well, I think it's hard for people to hold two things in their hand at once, you know, and like, again, the US and the UA UK's role in the end of slavery, as well as that they also participated in it. Yeah, it's like, it's like. I think that's just. It's just hard for people to do in general. And kind of a topic of like just being in a relationship in general is like, you. You kind of have to be able to hold two things in contrast. It's like, you know, maybe that's why

[17:23] Matt: we have two hands, so you don't have to hold two things in one. Nice.

[17:27] Michael: That's beautiful. Never thought about that.

[17:32] Matt: God gave you ears for ideas and other things.

[17:36] Michael: And other things. That's awesome. But, yeah, I think it's just. It is. I think it is a time, like to set a. Set aside. Set aside maybe your grievances and just celebrate like kind of what you said, what you would do with a family member on their birthday is to just, hey, this is the time to remember what are the great things about the. The US because there's a lot to. To say about it. You know, the education, the, you know, owning a house, property rights. Rights that are inherent in the individual that the government doesn't give you but must protect them. Yeah, I mean, there's just. There's just so much to. Freedom.

[18:19] Matt: Speech.

[18:19] Michael: Freedom of speech. Yeah.

[18:21] Matt: I mean, I think we're pretty much the only place in the world that has it.

[18:25] Michael: Yeah.

[18:26] Matt: Which is really remarkable. I mean, fact check me on that. I don't know for sure, but I think that just speaks to how what I guess world changing it is to have something like freedom of speech. It's so world changing that no one else really wants to implement it because, you know, in a certain sense it's dangerous. It's dangerous to allow people to say what they think.

[18:59] Michael: But I think that's because, you know, in the, in the U.S. just what we're found. Founded on is the whole, this whole idea is that there is a truth.

[19:06] Matt: Yeah.

[19:06] Michael: And that.

[19:07] Matt: And that it's outside of us.

[19:09] Michael: It's outside of us. And that, you know, if, if people are speaking, we're going, we're going to get to the truth. But once you start silencing voices, then you start manipulating the truth. So that's why it's so important to allow people that are disagreeing with you. Because sometimes you don't know if you're. What you're saying is true, you know, and that you. It needs to be tested, you know. You know, a lot of times through your friends that are closest to you. And then as it kind of spoils out into the rest of the world. Spoils out, spills out, spills out, spills over, spoils out, spills out. You know, so it's just, I think we've just seen like, how valuable of a thing that is. It's like even, you know, you know, Jesus talks about, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And you know, even Pilate's like, well, what is true? You know, like it's something that we, we. We ask ourselves, like, what is true? And, and we, and we leave our, our public discourse open to discover that. And I think that's something that, Because, I mean, even the they, that's why they set up the, the three branches, you know, and all these different checks and balances was because they knew that sometimes, you know, we don't know what is true. And we need to have some checks on, on our proclamation of what is true.

[20:27] Matt: So it's not just a check on corruption, it's also a check on our comprehension of reality itself.

[20:35] Michael: Oh, I like that. That's good. So I don't know. It's. It's a, It's a beautiful mess that the US Is.

[20:43] Matt: Yeah. I think trying to remember if this is the way he said it. I sent you this podcast. I think it was the podcast on lying. And he talks about like, well, okay, what is. Before he talks about Lying. He said, let's talk about what truth is. And he said, my definition for truth is that which aligns itself with reality. I thought that's a really interesting, simple definition. What does it mean for something to be true? Well, it aligns with reality. Well, what is reality? We don't know exactly. So we can check to see how well our ideas or our concepts or our facts align with reality as far as we can tell. But our ability to comprehend reality also needs some work. So we might go back and say that used to align, but my new understanding is now out of alignment with it. And I mean, I think it's a great definition too. Because, You know, for something like we could take, you know, take the. I'll start with a. Sorry. Start with one example. You know, I might say I'm really good at my job and that might or might not be true. If you want to know whether that's true, it would be one thing for you to ask me if I'm good at my job and for me to tell you it'd be another thing for you to go ask everyone that I work with. And that would be better aligned with reality because reality as assessed by

[22:17] Michael: the

[22:17] Matt: people who can see the fruits or lack thereof is closer aligned to reality than my own personal assessment of myself.

[22:27] Michael: Totally. It's even the people you work with and also the people that you're providing the product or service to too. It's like, because you can say you're doing a good job, but if you're providing a product that's not useful or helpful or good.

[22:40] Matt: Yeah.

[22:40] Michael: Then they're like, no, this product sucks.

[22:47] Matt: Yeah. So that's the actual definition of Dunning Kruger effect, which is that people self report. So if someone isn't very good at something, they self report much higher. They overestimate how good they are at it. And once they start getting good at something, they drastically underestimate how good they are because they start realizing like, oh, I thought I was good, but then now I can kind of see the full playing field and the landscape of what being good means. And gosh. And they really underestimate. And then as they get even better and better to the right side of the spectrum to becoming towards experts, they start continuing to underestimate how good they are in. In humility.

[23:28] Michael: Yeah.

[23:28] Matt: And so if you want to know how good someone is at something, you should not ask them because their answer will not help you.

[23:36] Michael: Will it help you? If they claim that they are really

[23:38] Matt: good at it, then you know that they're Not.

[23:41] Michael: Yeah, yeah. But I have always complained I'm really good at a lot of things, but excellent at nothing.

[23:47] Matt: A jack of all trades.

[23:48] Michael: Yeah.

[23:48] Matt: A Renaissance man.

[23:50] Michael: Yeah. But not good at anything. Excellent at anything like.

[23:55] Matt: Yeah. So we align ourselves

[23:58] Michael: to real.

[23:58] Matt: I mean, democracy, I think, is another version of that. It's like, who's the best candidate? Well, we could do all kinds of studies and all kinds of analyses, but we've decided that the best way to do it is to ask everyone. It's the same with markets. You know, what is the price of an apple? You could try to set the price of the apple, but you know, take a look at what happened in the Soviet Union when they tried price control. It's like 60 million people died because the market is a machine that we can't. No human is capable of performing the function that the market performs. No panel of people is capable of doing it. You need the entire market to participate on deciding what the price of an apple is or the price of a home.

[24:48] Michael: It's like, how do you know what other people value? You can't. I mean, we've just seen that so many times. People getting that wrong as what, what people value.

[24:56] Matt: Yeah.

[24:57] Michael: And the whole elections are run on this is like they're looking at, okay, what do the people value? It's like, that's the market. And then they start picking their talking points. You know, whether that's good or bad or not. It's, it's. But it's, it's just interesting. Like it's we, we think communism or socialism works, but we, how we actually function in the world is we try, we try to understand, like, what are people valuing? And that those are the needs that I'm going to meet.

[25:22] Matt: Well, and it's one thing for people to tell you what they're value, they value. It's another thing to perceive what they value because, you know, you might think you want something.

[25:34] Michael: Yeah.

[25:35] Matt: Like I might want a Porsche 911. Right. And I might have had that dream since I was a little kid. I had a poster on my wall. And then you might say, well, what have you ever done to try to get a Porsche 911? I say, nothing.

[25:50] Michael: Yeah. So do you really want.

[25:52] Matt: So do you really want it? I mean, is that a true want or is that just a mild interest or just a dream? What's your relationship with it? Do you. Are you not pursuing it because you feel ashamed? Are you, you know, what is that? It's not quite fair to say it's a want and maybe the Porsche 911 isn't a good example, but it's like, maybe like a relationship, a romantic relationship. You know, I really like Susie down the hall, you know. Well, have you ever talked to her? No. Well, you know, is it real, then?

[26:23] Michael: Yeah.

[26:23] Matt: Would Susie think you liked her if you don't ever talk to her?

[26:27] Michael: Yeah. At some point, you have to manifest,

[26:29] Matt: so you have to. You have to perceive the values as they exist more fully in reality, because we often misrepresent ourselves for a variety of reasons. I mean, I really think that's actually why Trump got elected the first time in 2016, was because he perspectives. He saw something that wasn't being represented sort of verbally in the media, and he spoke to it, and people really responded, you know, to such a degree that, you know, it was so. And it was so hidden. It's like reality as perceived by educated elites, you know, who are looking at polls and who are looking at statistics and who are looking at all this stuff. You know, we think we're really smart. We know what's going to happen. We know what people think, we know what people want. Hillary Clinton's going to win. 98% chance. You know, it's like, nothing to worry about here. And then Trump clobbers her. It's like, whoa, what was that?

[27:28] Michael: Yeah, it is interesting. But I think that's. That's a beautiful thing about the US System is like, it allows room for that discovery room.

[27:42] Matt: Would you say it allows room for the surprise prize, discovery of reality?

[27:47] Michael: Well, because there is a. There is like an attempt to manipulate all those things, you know, whether it's through the media or information, like you saw with the Facebook and all that stuff in the 2020 election, it's a sort of. And during COVID and, And, you know, it's like if there wasn't that freedom of speech part, it's like we could be. We could. This could be a different world that we're. We're moving into as far as, like, allowing that other viewpoint, because it's hard to say. It kind of seemed like it was like 80% of the US thought this way. And then when you look at the election, it was like, oh, no. 50% of the. It's basically 50. 50.

[28:29] Matt: Right.

[28:29] Michael: If anybody holds any of those extreme views, too, that's a whole other thing, too.

[28:34] Matt: Yeah.

[28:35] Michael: So it's like we need formats to have that.

[28:39] Matt: Yeah. It's like if you really want to know what people think, you have to ask them and let them answer you anonymously. I mean, it's like the version of the suggestions box in TED Lasso at the very beginning.

[28:53] Michael: I was just thinking about that. Yeah.

[28:55] Matt: It's like, I want you to be free to tell me what you really think.

[28:57] Michael: Wanker.

[28:58] Matt: Yeah, let it be anonymous. Wanker. You don't want them to call you a wanker, but if you really want to know what a democracy. Democracy thinks, you have to ask them and let them tell you an honest anonymously. Otherwise they're not going to tell you what they think.

[29:12] Michael: Yeah.

[29:13] Matt: You know, preference falsification is a very real thing. It's actually considered good etiquette in many senses to falsify your preferences to the pleasure of the, you know, maybe let's say the hosts that are bringing you over for dinner, you know, you don't. You don't tell them, you know, necessarily the raw, true answer to their questions about what you think about the recent remodel, you know, in the new curtains.

[29:40] Michael: Well, you also. This, like in, like predominantly Democratic or predominantly Republican, you know, usually the other party feels less, like, freedom or ability to express their opinions.

[29:55] Matt: You know, like the party that's out

[29:57] Michael: of power, that's out of our. In that, like, if you're from California, like, you'd be less likely to. Or in la, less likely to expose. Expose a spouse. Republican views, you know.

[30:10] Matt: Wait, who's exposing a spouse?

[30:12] Michael: A spouse.

[30:13] Matt: I'm kidding.

[30:14] Michael: Oh, that's the right word. Spouse. Spouse. Yeah. Okay. Their. Their views, you know, and like, in a heavily Republican city, it's like, you know, you'd be less likely to espouse, like, Democratic views, you know.

[30:32] Matt: I don't know if it goes that direction. I think it definitely goes to the first direction.

[30:39] Michael: Okay. Right now it does, but I know, I know growing up, it was that way, you know, it was that way in the past.

[30:44] Matt: Yeah. I don't think the current climate, but

[30:46] Michael: yeah, because Amarillo, it's like if you were a Democrat, like, it was sort of like, oh, keep it to yourself. Yeah, keep it to yourself. Don't ask, don't tell, soy boy. Yeah.

[30:55] Matt: Yeah.

[30:55] Michael: So I think that's. I think it's us. Yeah, I think that that has definitely changed where I feel like maybe at that time, Democrats were a lot more open to Republican views than Republicans were open to Democrat views.

[31:09] Matt: Well, at that time, Democrat views are now what Republican views are now.

[31:14] Michael: Totally. That's so true. That's very true. Isn't it funny? Like, we've lived long enough to kind of see that. Flip.

[31:22] Matt: Flip.

[31:23] Michael: Yeah. That the Republicans were not tolerant in the 80s and 90s, for the most part, or were seen as intolerant. I would say. I would say that's fairly accurate, you know, where now I would say the Democrats are intolerant, you know,

[31:40] Matt: for sure.

[31:41] Michael: Yeah.

[31:41] Matt: Yeah.

[31:43] Michael: Which I, again, just kind of tells you, like, in, you know, 10, 20 years, it'll be the Republicans or some other party that's like.

[31:48] Matt: Yeah, I mean, that's just. I was just thinking that's another example of, you know, it's not exactly preference falsification, but it's. It's inaccurate reporting of reality. It's like the. The left forever has said that they're the party of tolerance. They're still saying it. They're the most intolerant political party I've ever had, you know, come into contact with.

[32:10] Michael: Yeah.

[32:12] Matt: So it's like, if you want to know what's true, it's like maybe look at reality rather than what somebody's telling you about reality. And I guess if you don't want people to look at reality, then you can't let them speak. Speak about it.

[32:29] Michael: Yeah.

[32:29] Matt: Which is why you maybe wouldn't want freedom of speech. Because if you have freedom of speech, people can say, you're saying you're tolerant, but I'm noticing that you're actually really intolerant of these people and these people and these people. And it's like, well, if they can't say it, then nobody can. My words stand.

[32:50] Michael: So what's the difference between being intolerant and just disagreeing with somebody? Because it's like. Like, if I was to tolerate somebody's opinion, but I still disagree with them, it's like, that doesn't mean to be intolerant. Doesn't mean I have to agree with you. No. Yeah.

[33:16] Matt: I mean, I would say, okay, here's a pretty common modern example. It's like you saw a lot of people advocating for and doing this themselves. You know, cutting off family members who voted the wrong way, and we all know what the wrong way was. I'd say that's intolerant. It's not simply disagreeing. It's saying disagreement has consequences. And one of those consequences is I'm going to remove myself from you and I'm not going to be around you. I cannot tolerate that. I will not tolerate that.

[33:59] Michael: Which is interesting, because, like, there is a. There is a place for that.

[34:03] Matt: There is. And I would say maybe one of the issues is that I don't think that tolerance is exactly a virtue. I don't think that we should be tolerant of everything. I think we've kind of ruined. Maybe we always do this. We ruin words. Right. Like, discrimination is considered a very, very bad thing. And I would say, well, in the context of race, yes, it is. But it's also super important in other areas, like choosing a sexual partner. Like, you should discriminate. You should also discriminate when choosing a caregiver for your child. You should be discriminative, and again, probably not based on skin color, you know, but you should be.

[34:48] Michael: Or religion or something like that.

[34:49] Matt: Yeah, yeah. You should be discerning and discriminating about the character of somebody you're going to leave your newborn baby with. Right. So, I mean, discrimination is not only a bad thing, it is also a necessary good thing. And I would say tolerance is not only a good thing. It's a. There are times when you should be intolerant, that you should not tolerate certain things.

[35:15] Michael: You know,

[35:18] Matt: I was telling you about something I was intolerant of earlier. Do you want to talk about that?

[35:22] Michael: Tell me.

[35:26] Matt: We'll save it.

[35:26] Michael: Okay.

[35:28] Matt: So, yeah, there certainly are certain things you should be intolerant of. And, you know, I think the mistake that we've made thinking that tolerance is a net good is that, you know, I would say an example of something that you should not tolerate is allowing naked men in the locker room of your teenage daughter's athletic department.

[35:46] Michael: Yeah.

[35:47] Matt: And yet we have decided that, no, actually that tolerance is a righteous virtue. And I'm thinking, is it the. Was it the hijacking of the word that got you confused? This is your daughter you're talking about, and there's a guy waving his dick around in the. In the locker room, and you're saying we. That it's virtuous. What is this? What is this?

[36:09] Michael: Yeah.

[36:10] Matt: You know, the thing I was talking about earlier, I'll just say briefly, is that at my daughter's. You know what? I'm not going to tell that story.

[36:23] Michael: Okay.

[36:24] Matt: I just did a quick evaluation in my head and thought, you know, we talked about it. We don't need to talk about it.

[36:29] Michael: Yeah, that's so funny. Like, there was. There's some things we talk about that, like, oh, my God, do we already talk about that on the podcast?

[36:36] Matt: I guess I feel particularly strongly because I have three daughters who I feel a strong need to protect in a very different way than I feel about my son, especially now that my son is older, he's a man. And especially of my toddler, I feel a very strong desire to protect Her. And there are certain things that I would say that's not tolerable, not going to tolerate having her in this or this situation. And one of those situations would be, you know, hypothetically exposing her to naked men. I'm not going to tolerate that in any way, shape or form. So it is strange, you know, that once we sort of decide, I mean, maybe this is an example of, you know, maybe something aligns with reality at some point, but our comprehensions of reality grows, and then all of a sudden it gets out from under us. The thing, the alignment that we thought we had, I mean, being anti discrimination in one context is really good, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, well, we've decided that all discrimination is bad.

[37:44] Michael: Yeah.

[37:44] Matt: Because, well, you're going to get knocked upside the head when you rediscover the need for it, especially if the entire society demands that you no longer have it. You know, which you do see, I mean, the sexual partner one is a pretty compelling reason in my mind to be discriminate, especially for women, because women should be careful who they have sexual intercourse with because they're taking a pretty massive risk about, you know, the, the. I won't say consequence because it's not necessary. There's another word that is problematic because I don't think the word consequence is necessarily a negative word. It just means the, the cause and effect relationships of it, the repercussions of it, you know, but it's like I want my daughters to be discerning and discriminative about who they, you know.

[38:34] Michael: Yeah.

[38:34] Matt: Get together with. So.

[38:38] Michael: Well, it's like, even like I was like listening to some people talk about in the, the mayoral race and listen to some things on. On the left about that and, and they're basically like saying the reason why a lot of people voted for them is because, you know, or angry was because they can't stand a, you know, certain race or from getting into power. And it was just like, no, I think a lot of people were just disagreeing with their ideas.

[39:06] Matt: Right.

[39:06] Michael: But it's like it simplifies it into this sort of race thing. And it's like, no, it's like it doesn't matter what race somebody is. You can still disagree with their ideas and not vote for them.

[39:16] Matt: Yeah.

[39:17] Michael: So it's interesting, a lot of times we turn these complex situations into a binary of, oh, they don't like them because they're racist.

[39:31] Matt: Yeah. I think it's. Well, I think it's in general, it's very easy to overly simplify something such that your response to it is a simple, a sort of a simple complaint. It's like, like, I, I decry the disordered world that I live in. That's the only reason we have this. The results that I don't like, I think it's a very immature kind of response, but I understand why that would be appealing. And it's emotionally potent. And so to say that gets a lot of response. And it's much harder to say, to, like, really evaluate, well, what are the ideas and the policies behind the campaign and what do people like and not like? And why did they, you know, say what they said and vote the way that they did? That's a much harder thing to do. You know, when Trump WINS, that's in 2016, that's a pretty fascinating thing that, you know, you could go, whoa, there's a lot to look into here about my misunderstanding about the two parties, my misunderstanding about the sentiment of the American people. My, you know, the polls were completely wrong. Like, what's up with that? Why were the polls wrong?

[40:46] Michael: Or even the Republicans understanding of their own party.

[40:49] Matt: Yeah. But the left decided, well, no, the answer is that, well, Trump is a racist, misogynist bigot, and that means half the country is racist, misogynist bigots, and end of story. You know, now I have my boogeyman to fight against, and I don't really have to go do any of the kind of hard work of understanding reality.

[41:09] Michael: Yeah.

[41:10] Matt: I can just say the thing that makes me feel that aligns with the way that I feel.

[41:17] Michael: Yeah.

[41:19] Matt: But, yeah, I think the Republicans are certainly guilty of the same thing.

[41:22] Michael: Totally. Well, I think it's another thing that's beautiful about the United States is that we kind of have a format to do different experiments across many states and many cities. It's like there's a freedom that.

[41:37] Matt: Yeah.

[41:37] Michael: Oh, you think, you think that's good? Okay, well. And the people that you voted for think it's good. Well, I guess you're going to try it out. Try it out, and we're going to learn from it. And I think that's, that's a lot of what happened during the 2020 and Covid and all that was, you know, a lot of these cities and states were kind of like heading in this one direction and people voted with their feet.

[41:58] Matt: Yeah, they left.

[41:59] Michael: They went to Florida and Texas, Tennessee. You know, it's like, and so I think that's, that's a telling thing. It's like, like mandabi I don't think he's listening to the people. It's like, it's like they're like, hey, we can't do business here. California. That's what they told Gavin Newsom. It's like, hey, we can't do business here. Yeah, you know, you can tell. Oh, they're just money grubbing capitalist and it's like, do you know what it takes to run a company?

[42:24] Matt: Yeah.

[42:25] Michael: Do you know how many hands are in that pot? It's just, it's absolutely insane.

[42:29] Matt: What was that tweet? There was some government person in California back when Elon had all of his businesses headquarters in California. And she tweeted something like Elon Musk,

[42:39] Michael: he said, message received, message received.

[42:41] Matt: And he moved all that shit out of there.

[42:43] Michael: Yeah.

[42:43] Matt: And he now has like. Is, is SpaceX the most valuable company in the world right now with their 14 trillion valuation?

[42:56] Michael: I think it's a 1 trillion.

[42:57] Matt: 1 trillion? No, Elon's worth 1 trillion.

[43:01] Michael: Yeah, yeah, totally. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I think it is the most.

[43:03] Matt: Yeah, yeah. So how much, how much vitality? I was going to say tax revenue, but it's not all about the tax revenue. It's also about the, the vitality of your economy in your community. And all that's gone because you were resentful of somebody who's more successful than you.

[43:22] Michael: Yeah.

[43:23] Matt: It's like you, you injured your constituents over it, which is crazy.

[43:28] Michael: It is, yeah. It's quite amazing like how just the double down like the, like Warren and oh shoot, Bernie Sanders, it's like they're doubling down. It's like, guys, you have to understand how an economy works.

[43:47] Matt: Do you think it's that they don't understand?

[43:49] Michael: They understand it.

[43:50] Matt: It's, they're, they're playing a part.

[43:52] Michael: They're playing a part.

[43:52] Matt: Right. Like they're intelligent people. Elizabeth Warren was a professor at Harvard.

[43:59] Michael: Yeah.

[43:59] Matt: You know, and I'm not even saying that they're two faced. I'm just saying they must understand, but they also know that the currency, you know, there is an, there's another currency that's accepted in social culture that is different than the truth. And that currency has something to do with, you know, not, not fit for reality, but fit for emotional state. Because emotional state doesn't necessarily have much to do with reality. But if you can speak to people's emotional state, you can mobilize them.

[44:39] Michael: Yeah.

[44:40] Matt: And I think that's even true internally of us. You know, it's like, I think any Given individual can say, well, I know this is not true, but I feel this way really strongly, which means that. And then you carry on to say, well, it must be indicative of something. It must be representative of something.

[44:59] Michael: So I think that's. I mean, that's what's so helpful about seeing you and I doing this is like, hashing our ideas out and even, like, more like for us. Like, you know, maybe not a lot of people listen to this, but it's like hashing it out in public really makes you consider, like, what you think and what you believe. Like, maybe you and I get a little bit more passionate in our. Our talk or, you know, before and after the podcast. But, you know, there's. There's something about, like, okay, hey, someone's going to look into this. And what I'm saying, it's like, am I. Am I really being accurate? Am I being faithful to what I actually think and believe?

[45:35] Matt: You mean, like, there's a editor in your head.

[45:37] Michael: Exactly.

[45:38] Matt: Because of the fact that we are speaking publicly, you are scrutinizing your own thoughts in a way that you don't when you're sitting and shooting the shit with, you know.

[45:46] Michael: Yeah.

[45:46] Matt: Your friend.

[45:47] Michael: Yeah. You're like that guy. It's like, yeah, well, that is not really an argument. Like, what do you really. What do you think about that?

[45:53] Matt: Right.

[45:54] Michael: I guess some people make money off of that on YouTube and podcasts, for sure, but that's not what this is about.

[46:00] Matt: Yeah, Well, I feel super thankful to have been born into this great American experiment. I. I have a lot of love for this country.

[46:13] Michael: Totally.

[46:13] Matt: Both for. I mean, it's something that comes to my mind is just the beauty of it. The beauty of this country is just astounding and so diverse, you know, even in just this one little state that I absolutely am in love with. The state of Texas.

[46:27] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[46:28] Matt: You have so much diversity of geography, and there's so much beauty in it, you know, and you can go to Big Bend and just be in awe of the beauty, and then you can go to Yosemite, and it's a whole different thing and a different kind of awe. This country is just really, really beautiful. I'm also really just in love with the. With the principles and the ideas on which it was founded. I think that they were so courageous and so incredibly written and crafted. You know, I think about those men that were involved in the Continental Congress and the. The signing of the Declaration of Independence, and these were really great men. The more I get to know them, you know, through reading about them, the More. I just think these were incredible men. And I. I am lucky to have these men as my sort of spiritual ancestors to look up to and say, I'm proud to be a part of this thing that they made totally. And for them to comprehend that. Government is something from which the people should be protected because rights are not given. Government doesn't have the power to give rights. Only God has that power. The government is a necessary evil that exists to protect. That's a really beautiful idea. And that I should, you know, in. In. In the ideal as we set it out in this country, I should be free to pursue life, liberty and happiness. And that's a pretty amazing thing to be born into.

[48:10] Michael: Yeah. It's not guaranteed, but yeah, to be

[48:12] Matt: able to pursue and to have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and for that to be our first founding sort of principle in the Constitution, I feel really lucky to have that. I don't know what it's like not to have that, you know, and as social media has given us more daily access into the lives of people across the world, I can see how horribly oppressive it would be to have to. You know, it's one thing to sort of scrutinize your thoughts when you're speaking publicly, you know, in a form like this, but it's another thing to scrutinize your thoughts all the time, everywhere, because you might get arrested, you know.

[48:53] Michael: Totally.

[48:55] Matt: Well, I mean, that's real Orwellian.

[48:57] Michael: Well, I just love even the whole idea of, like, the ancestral part of it. It's like, you know, even like, when I look back on my family's history and I'll just take my. My one grandpa, you know, he came over. He was the first one born of. He was the youngest of 13. He was the only one born in the United States. And, you know, he grew up working in the mines.

[49:18] Matt: Who. Who is this?

[49:19] Michael: My grandpa. Your grandpa? Yeah, Grandpa Vaclav and, you know, grand backy. Yeah. It's like. It's like he worked in the mines, and someone was like, hey, does anybody know how to do carpentry? My. My grandpa was like, I do. He had no fucking clue how to do carpentry.

[49:32] Matt: He just wanted to get out of the mine. Yeah.

[49:34] Michael: And so, like, he got the. He got to start doing, like, building different carpentry stuff around the mines and stuff like that. And then they did some farming, and then they moved to Amarillo, and he started building houses. He didn't know how to fucking build houses, but he just did it.

[49:47] Matt: Yeah.

[49:48] Michael: And then, like, then he afforded this life for my dad to go to college. You know, he played basketball, got a scholarship and went to dental school and. And, you know, then he became a dentist, you know, and then, like, that afforded me to live, to have to grow up within a certain lifestyle. And it's like. It's like there really is opportunity. It's like. But I feel like now it's like we're losing the idea that, no, it comes at a cost. And if you take away the cost of that, then people won't understand what they have. And I think that's why it's important that you leave the cost embedded in the system. And I can seem cruel, but I feel like if we don't, it's like we're going to, like, move into a world of, like, Mandambis in California where. No, we're going to take care of the cost for you. There's no risk here. There's no such thing. You're just prolonging it. You're pushing it into the future.

[50:47] Matt: Well, you're condemning it to death, I think, is what you're doing. If you're saying that there's no risk here, well, that's an impossible statement. There's no such thing as a free lunch. We used to say.

[50:57] Michael: Yeah, we used to say. When I was young.

[51:00] Matt: When I was young. Now lots of people say there is such a thing as a free lunch, but to say that there's no risk is basically to declare an impossibility. And so when the inevitable consequence to the risk comes was like, what are you going to do? Yeah, you're going to ignore it, bury it, you know, do some crazy cooking of the books to get it out of the way. You know, if. If the risk of the welfare state is massive fraud and corruption, but we don't want to look at it, then maybe we just pass a law that's illegal to investigate fraud and corruption in California.

[51:36] Michael: Yeah.

[51:37] Matt: And then we've kind of mitigated that. But the whole thing is just simply condemning the whole place to death because the place is going to lose all of its people and lose all of its money. And then what's going to have to happen? You know, something like revolution.

[51:52] Michael: Yeah.

[51:53] Matt: Because at some point, all the people who are there that don't want to leave are not going to tolerate it anymore and say, we're done with this

[51:59] Michael: or can't leave because they don't have the right.

[52:01] Matt: Don't have the mobility. Yeah,

[52:06] Michael: yeah, it's. I mean, but I think that's like. I mean, that's. That's a great thing about the United States and in the experiment is like, it allows for those things to, you know, try it out.

[52:19] Matt: Right.

[52:20] Michael: You know, it kind of sucks that some of those things are going to lead to some, you know, demise of cities and states. But, you know, that's. That's kind of like. It's. It's. We need to work those experiments out. If you don't believe the history and haven't, you know, read, it's like you're kind of doomed to repeat the. The failures of the past. And I think that's why, you know, it's like, our education system is so important that we need to make sure that we understand the past.

[52:53] Matt: I think we stopped teaching it.

[52:55] Michael: Yeah.

[52:55] Matt: As far as I can tell, because it was so intolerable. I mean, that is a really interesting. Component of this. Are we postmodern or are we post postmodern? Where are we? Wherever it is that we are. One fascinating feature is the rewriting of history. And I wonder how Orwell knew together to address that when he did, because that was an important feature of Oceania, was the constant rewriting of history. I mean, that was. Winston's job in the book, was to rewrite history. And when I read that book, the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, he explained it, why the rewriting of history is so important to these postmodern movements. And I. I couldn't really. It was a complex definition, and I couldn't really hold on to it. I'll have to reread it.

[54:03] Michael: Yeah, I bought that, but I haven't read that yet.

[54:05] Matt: It's really good on that.

[54:08] Michael: But it makes sense, though. I mean, you know, the more you can control the information, the more that you can control the people.

[54:18] Matt: True.

[54:19] Michael: And. And that's. That's a. That's a really hard, hard thing to.

[54:27] Matt: I mean, maybe one, like, primitive example of it is there is a tendency, like when a couple breaks up, each of them kind of rewrites the history to fit their side so that they can more effectively mobilize the people who are supporting of them to be pro. Them. Anti the X. Right.

[54:49] Michael: Yeah.

[54:50] Matt: People do this all the time.

[54:53] Michael: Well, I don't think you did that,

[54:54] Matt: but I tried really hard not to.

[54:58] Michael: You did. I think you did a good job. But I saw, like, a lot of.

[55:03] Matt: But I'm not making it personal. I'm just saying this is, like, a feature of the human soul. It's like, we do these things and.

[55:11] Michael: Well, I'm just saying maybe proud of you, that's all.

[55:13] Matt: Maybe at a political, cultural level. You know, obviously everything political, everything cultural is a. It's a reflection of the human soul. It's an aggregation.

[55:25] Michael: I do it too. I mean, it's like I want. I want people to see me as competent and intelligent.

[55:30] Matt: Totally.

[55:31] Michael: And so, you know, I try to present myself that way and the more I build up that false edifice, it's sort of like, like the more it's sort of like it kind of crumbles from the inside out.

[55:43] Matt: Yeah.

[55:43] Michael: And it's like I, I've experienced that and it's just sort of like, ah, I hate that. I don't want to do that. But I, but I find it a. A desire to do that. You know, I don't know how to explain that, but it's because we want to be seen well and we desire to be seen well. And I think that's a part of it is just covering up our insecurities and you know, like our inability and how we fall short. But I think it even comes back to what we're talking about, the United States. It's like, no, there is a lot to celebrate. It's like even just in kind of things I was admitting to is I sort of. It's like, yes, but at the same time it's like I'm still worth celebrating. Do I have these false selves that I present to people? Yes, but you know what? There's also a lot of good things. So I think that's the part is again kind of coming back to relationship is we have a relationship with the country we live in and there's things that we disagree with and there's things we agree with. But I think there is a time to come together and just celebrate the things that are great about this country. And it doesn't mean that we're discarding the things that we need to work on.

[57:03] Matt: Man, I just kind of saw something at several different levels. At the spiritual level you have these really difficult concepts like truth. Like, well, what is truth? It's a really hard question to answer. And in our sort of post enlightenment arrogance, I think we think we know, oh, the truth is what's obvious. It's like, that's not it. So there's the truth that's hard to know what it is. There's also something you said, a false self. And at a spiritual level, I think there's God and there's Satan. Satan is a liar. God is a truth teller at the very least. Conceptually, this is how we conceptualize these things. Satan is a false self. In Satan, you know, if you think about sort of like, What's the word? Demonic possession, that's a false self coming into and obscuring the real self of a person. So there's a false self. And at a individual level, I think we all struggle with who we truly are and the false self that we present for all kinds of reasons, you know, because we want. We want to be seen, as you said, as competent. You know, we go to work and we present one way, we come home, we present another. You know, there's all kinds of versions of this. We, you know, we are false, and we struggle with that. We're also true, and we struggle with that as well.

[58:42] Michael: Because even in the idea that we're false, it's like in some instances, not true too. Because it's something you're aspiring to.

[58:48] Matt: Yeah.

[58:49] Michael: And so that's hard to sometimes distinguish between, like, here's what I'm aspiring to and I'm moving in this direction. You know, it's like. But the part. The. I think the hard thing is, is like, you. You fall short of that, but then where it becomes false is like when you start to present that in a way that. That is more true than it should be, you know, if that makes sense.

[59:14] Matt: Yeah. So you have. You have this truth and false self kind of idea at the spiritual level, and you see it acted out in your own heart on the individual level, if you're willing to look very hard at yourself. And I think it acts out at a cultural level as well. You know, I think America is struggling with some false self right now. You know, we're believing some things about us that aren't true and maybe some other things about us that are true. I don't know. But it seems like the thing that we would really do well to bring back is that aspirational self. And I think that was what was so amazing about the founding of this country, is the founding of this country was a debt, was a. A description of the aspirational self and a set of mechanics by which that might be born into reality. You know, I mean, I. I hear a lot of people complaining about the fact that, for instance, the founders owned slaves. I've been reading more about and sort of learning more about that issue. And the way that it seems to me is that pretty much everybody agreed that that needed to. That slavery we needed to end, but they also could not unite the 13 colonies with that issue. And so they knew that in order to address that issue, it would be much better addressed by a United States than a divided states. And so they chose to unite the states first. And in George Washington's case, for example, I believe he had slaves that he inherited through marriage. And he had an agreement, I guess, and a plan for how to release those slaves. But if you think about it, it's a little bit maybe harder done than said, because what are the consequences? What are the ramifications of that for those people and for you? And for you? It seems like the founders, they had a sort of a delicacy. They were delicate about it because they knew that it. For it to happen and for it to stick, because it never stuck anywhere else in the history of the world. It was like nobody could eradicate slavery. They couldn't do it, and they had to be delicate about it. And I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, and I made the recommendation that people watch the Lincoln movie with Daniel Day Lewis, because I think they did a good job of showing how kind of difficult that was. You know, it was a real dance. It was a real sort of 3D chess kind of thing to get it done. And I think the founders knew that, and they had to take some trade offs, both in their own personal lives and in the founding of the nation. And I think I heard somebody, I don't know if it was on one of these Hillsdale Colleges, somebody was making the case, based on some of the writing that was done at that time, that they sort of knew and intuited, the founders did, that the ending of slavery would involve a civil war, but it would involve a war of some kind. And they knew that to establish the nation first and to strengthen the nation would be the only way that it would survive a civil war. And so they chose to do that. And they were right. Less than 100 years, 90 years later, there was a war fought over him. I mean, slavery and other things as well. Which.

[62:54] Michael: Isn't it crazy to be able to have the foresight and to think in centuries or decades?

[63:01] Matt: Yeah.

[63:02] Michael: Because, you know, a lot of people say, like, you just do this, like, hey, we'll just go carbon neutral by 2030.

[63:09] Matt: Yeah.

[63:10] Michael: Or get rid of all fossil fuels, but not 2030. It's like, those are great aspirations. Or I wouldn't say necessarily. I agree with it, but it's just sort of like.

[63:20] Matt: But it.

[63:21] Michael: The ramifications of what you just said could be catastrophic.

[63:26] Matt: Yeah.

[63:27] Michael: For everything. I mean, plastics, you know, how we move things from state to state. It's like you just don't understand like what it would actually take to bring about that reality that you're proposing or even if it's a good reality. I think that's the hard thing. And I've watched a couple of different interviews where with different people and the interviewer will be like, well, why don't we just do this? And okay. Or like, or that idea is bad. And the person will be like, come back and say like, okay, well how, how else should we have do this? She's like, well, that's not my job.

[64:03] Matt: It's like my job is just to identify bad ideas.

[64:06] Michael: Yeah. And it's like, it's like that's, that's such a escape because it's like, it's like if you don't think about like the ramifications of what you're proposing, you

[64:12] Matt: then you don't get to, you don't get it. You don't get to criticize something that you can't offer an alternative to.

[64:19] Michael: Yeah.

[64:19] Matt: I mean, that's the Chesterton Fence idea,

[64:21] Michael: a viable alternative too.

[64:22] Matt: Yeah.

[64:22] Michael: You know, it's like, it's like, it's great and I think that's a great. We need to be idealistic and I think that's fantastic. But we also have to understand that, you know, growing a business, you know, it just doesn't happen overnight or, you know, you don't just all of a sudden have space rockets going into orbit and then coming back and landing just out of nowhere. You know, this takes like so much planning and risk and forethought and yeah, okay, hey, I think we'll get there in three years. Oh, okay. That took five years, you know.

[64:59] Matt: Right.

[65:00] Michael: So I don't know, I think it's just hard to sort of like some of the ideas that we have and that's the beautiful thing about youth is that you kind of have these ideals. And it's like we had this within the coffee industry and in some areas as far as like, you know, pay and stuff like that. And just like we sell six to $7 coffees. Like you can't afford some of these things. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like, well, okay, well the government should step in and do this thing. It's like, okay, well where does that money come from? It's like there's consequences and trade offs all along the way. And it's like, are you willing to accept those trade offs and consequences? And part of the, part of the rationality is like, as long as it doesn't affect me. I'm willing to accept those consequences.

[65:54] Matt: I'm willing for other people to accept consequences, but not me.

[65:57] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a, it's a really difficult reality to kind of swallow and to participate in. Honestly, it's, that's really what it is, is like are you going to participate in that reality or just hide behind a big wall and just throw grenades over the, over the wall at people who are trying to be productive.

[66:23] Matt: Reminds me of that Taylor Lorenz meme that was going around for a long time. She's like shoveling shit over a wall and then all of a sudden the people start throwing it back over the wall and she goes, help. Oppression.

[66:38] Michael: Oh yeah, that was such a crazy time.

[66:43] Matt: Yeah. I mean there's maybe something that I want to touch on and it's what we've been talking about, but it's like to bring back the aspirational self of this country. It does seem like the current landscape is loaded with disincentives for aspiration. I think you see this, I mean Elon Musk is a decent example. It's like, what are young people supposed to think about their own hopes and dreams when the most productive, successful person maybe who's ever lived does it in this country and they see that man hated. They see that man, they see this, this self righteous resentment that people have toward him and that he's immoral for being successful. Why would you be aspirational? I think it's a. I think there's a similar problem with our, our young boys and our young men is that, well, like why would I try to be successful if you're just going to call me the patriarchy. If you're going to talk, call me a toxic because of my masculinity. Why would I aspire to be strong? Why would I aspire to be competent if that's what's waiting for me on the other side of that.

[68:26] Michael: But there's also a counter to that too, is like, yes, that's going to happen. Good. You know, like the jocko.

[68:38] Matt: Yeah.

[68:38] Michael: But because it's because you cannot if you're going to make an impact in the world. I mean, Jesus is the perfect example of this. If you're going to make an impact on the world, be ready for dissent or controversy because it's like you just cannot move in the world in a way that's effective without somebody or something being a resistance to that. But that's the part you have to always be question yourself is like, am I really making an impact.

[69:15] Matt: I guess the point I'm making is if you're going to disincentivize something, you shouldn't be surprised if you see less of it. And I think we ought to want to see more aspiration in our young people. I think we ought to want to see more aspiration in our culture. I think we should want the idea of American exceptionalism to be celebrated, not something to be ashamed of, because we live in an exceptional country. You shouldn't be surprised that it produces exceptional people. And you should celebrate that totally. And if you don't, you're going to get a lot less of it, you know, if you stop. If you stop telling the birthday boy nice things about him and you decide to tell him what a piece of shit he is. And it's a shame ritual. Every time he has a birthday, you know, he's probably gonna start forgetting he has a birthday, you know, and I gotta work late tonight. It's like, I'm. He's gonna avoid the dinner, you know?

[70:15] Michael: Yeah.

[70:16] Matt: It's like, oh, no, work's sending me out of town. I can't be here.

[70:21] Michael: That actually sounds like an excuse. I would have much.

[70:24] Matt: For a much different reason, though. Unless Allison's saying things to you that I don't know about.

[70:30] Michael: No, Allison. Amazing.

[70:32] Matt: Yeah, I know. So, you know, maybe we can kind of wrap it there and just say, let's. Let's cheers to the. The health and aspiration of our country and of our people.

[70:43] Michael: And also just the US Ben's team

[70:45] Matt: soccer kicking ass last night.

[70:47] Michael: And just to hear a stadium full of I don't know how many hundred thousand people or something like that. Just being so excited seeing John Denver, you know, country roads and, you know, Bon Jovi living on a prayer.

[71:01] Matt: And just like, it was pretty awesome.

[71:03] Michael: It was like. It's just like. It just kind of reminds you, like, oh, guys, let's celebrate. Let's like. Let's just kind of like, just celebrate. Like, put all your differences aside and just like, you live in the most amazing country that's ever existed ever, and hopefully this will continue or there will be even a more amazing country that comes in the future. Like, we only. We would hope somebody could build on the blocks and build something better into the future, you know? But. Yeah.

[71:33] Matt: Well, surprisingly, I heard somebody talking about how the United States has the best constitution in the world. Even though many of the constitutions in the world came after us and were modeled on us, no one's been able to do better.

[71:49] Michael: Yeah, that's true.

[71:52] Matt: It's pretty amazing.

[71:52] Michael: It is pretty amazing.

[71:54] Matt: So cheers to that. Cheers to America.

[71:57] Michael: Yeah.

[71:59] Matt: Yeah, yeah.

[72:01] Michael: All right. Love you. Love you all out there. Bye. Red, white and blue.