Pass the Salt (I Love You)

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers.

[0:40] Michael: Like we're about to go on a Mr. Rogers show or something.

[0:42] Matt: I was thinking it was going the direction of, like, the Indiana Jones theme song or Jurassic Park.

[0:48] Michael: I don't know.

[0:49] Matt: Hey, hey, we're here.

[0:51] Michael: We are explorers.

[0:52] Matt: We are doing it.

[0:52] Michael: To the shores.

[0:53] Matt: To the shores.

[0:59] Michael: I was trying to explain our podcast to somebody recently, and I was like, yeah, we've actually, like, started talking about religion a lot the last couple months. Yeah, it's like, what do you talk about? A lot of things. But we've been really just discussing, you know, like, Jesus and God and, like, what is this mess?

[1:19] Matt: Well, whenever anybody asks me what the podcast is about, I say it's not really about anything. It's just two friends who drink whiskey and talk once a week.

[1:28] Michael: Oh, yeah, totally.

[1:29] Matt: And so I think it's just evidence that that's kind of what's been on our minds a lot lately. Certainly has been on mine. And I'm so fascinated by it. Such so many deep and interesting things to chew on. So today I wanted to talk a little bit about language and the word. Whatever that might mean.

[1:54] Michael: Yeah.

[1:56] Matt: So let's just dive right into it.

[1:57] Michael: Do it.

[1:59] Matt: So I'm very fond. Let's start with this example. We'll start with the example that I found on X. So somebody made this post where they start with a sentence, and the sentence is the word. I'm going to try to say the words, I didn't say she stole my money. And then they go through and one by one emphasize one word. I didn't say she stole my money. I didn't say she stole my money. I didn't say she stole my money. I didn't say she stole my money. And you can kind of go down the list, and you can see how the meaning of the sent of each of those sentences is different depending on what word you emphasize. And so you can say it in a way that you're saying, well, no, I'm saying somebody else did it. Or you can say, no, I'm denying that I said it. Or you can say, I implied it, but I didn't say it. You can say there's all these different meanings behind it. And I just thought that was so fascinating. I'm really fond. I brought it up a lot of times. I'm really fond of this one clip of Christopher Walken talking about how he delivers lines, and he talks about how you have to remember that you're often Saying much more than the words you use. He gives the example of sitting at the dinner table and you ask somebody to pass you the salt.

[3:23] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[3:25] Matt: But really what you're saying is I love you or I hate you, something like that.

[3:31] Michael: Or indifferent.

[3:31] Matt: Or indifferent towards you. Yeah, Language is fascinating to me in that way. Yeah. You know, on one level we think that we use words because we know the definition of those words and the definitions of the words we use give the meaning to our utterances. And I think that's so far from true. I don't think that's even near the truth. What we mean by what we say. Given that example of I didn't say she stole my money, there's no word that changes there. There's no definition, underlying definition that changes there. But you end up with seven different meanings based on how you say something.

[4:21] Michael: Yeah.

[4:24] Matt: And so a second example to put on the table is my toddler is her language is really exploding right now. And I'm watching her learn words and learn how to communicate. And when they first start speaking, you get one or two words, then three or four, and then you get incoherent groups of words. And then now she's at a point where she's putting together sentences and carrying her thoughts across from one sentence to the next. And that's so amazing to watch. But one thing I noticed that a toddler learning to speak is a little bit like ChatGPT. Like ChatGPT, all of these large language models, ChatGPT, Perplexity, Anthropic, Claude Grok. They're basically just hyper advanced auto completion tools. They're figuring out what the most likely next thing to say is. And that turns out to be incredibly useful. You can do a lot with that. They're really good at it. But that's also kind of like what a toddler is. A toddler is sort of an autocomplete mechanism. When they're learning to talk, it's like the toddler doesn't learn to talk because they understand and memorize the definition of words. Like, that's absurd. Right. What they're doing is something more like category perception. Like they learn the difference between a question and a statement. So you ask a toddler a question, they can glean that it is a question. And maybe they don't fully understand what the meaning of the question is. They fully understand every word in the question, but they perceive it's a question. And you can see them start prototyping responses like, oh, that's a question. And you ask a toddler a question, and they go, no. And you're like, well, that wasn't even a relevant answer to the question. It wasn't a yes or no question. But they've perceived that after a question, a lot of times comes a yes or a no. So they start trying that out. And so it's like they're trying to figure out what fits there. And that's such a different mechanism of learning than the way we tend to teach things to people. Right. Like, do you remember in, you know, junior high and high school, you'd get the summer reading list and then the summer reading list would come along with a set of vocabulary and you're supposed to memorize the vocabulary so that, you know, you would understand the words in the book. It's like, that's not how we learn. That's not how you learn to speak. It's not how you learn what words mean. You learn it all from the context, not from the definitions. The definitions are an afterthought. The definitions are almost like a nerdy afterthought to try to settle disputes about what things mean either. Nerdy meaning that some people just love it. They love dictionaries. I had a friend in high school who would just read the dictionary and then otherwise it's like, to check that. I think we need to check the definition of that word to make sure we both understand and mean the same thing by it.

[7:44] Michael: Totally.

[7:45] Matt: Yeah.

[7:48] Michael: Which has been really, really important the last few years. Like just that they'll think a lot of things like we're saying. Saying the same words but meaning different

[7:58] Matt: things and sometimes purposely.

[8:01] Michael: Yeah, yeah. And are co opting ideas and into other ideas that actually don't fit.

[8:06] Matt: Right. There's another kind of interesting thing in this that, you know, it's a very common response. If you say something and the other person says, that hurt my feelings. It's very. A very sort of common autocomplete answer is, oh, I didn't mean that. I didn't. Or I didn't mean it in that way.

[8:33] Michael: Or how. How did I hurt your feelings?

[8:35] Matt: Yeah.

[8:36] Michael: Like, I mean to. Yeah.

[8:39] Matt: And I guess all that's just pointing to this very. This hidden complexity in understanding meaning. And where I want to go with this is I was thinking about that. All of this watching my toddler thinking about the meaning of what we say and how often we don't. We don't choose our words very carefully. We just sort of. They just sort of flow right out of us. Right. And then I was puzzling over what does it mean that Jesus Christ is described as the Word? That seems very interesting. I mean, the central claim of Jesus Christ is that he is son of man. He is God incarnated into a man. So why does it say that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God? Through the Word all things were created. Nothing that has been created, I don't have it totally in front of me. It's interesting. It's one of my favorite verses in the Bible. It's John 1. Yeah, I was just kind of puzzling over that. Okay. Given the complexity of meaning and the words that we use and how we get this mastery over words fairly, I mean, almost unbelievably, the fact that a two year old can convey their thoughts by what, vibrating the air with their vocal cords in moving their mouth in a specific way, they can know, shoot thoughts through the air and put them into your brain, through your ears. That's, that's a wild thing.

[10:26] Michael: Yeah, well, it's just kind of different ways we communicate too, you know, just kind of just thinking about, I just kind of thinking different scenarios as you're talking, like, like, hey Matt, did you do your dish? Did you do the dishes? You know, and like, oh yeah, Michael, the dishes are, the dishes are done. It's like you're kind of communicating information, you know, and then like, but if you ask me like, hey Michael, how are you doing? Like there's something, there's just something very different between like communicating information or whether something was accomplished versus like when you go into something that's relational, you're kind of going into the unknown. But if you're going, if you're talking about it in a way that's, you know, sort of, sort of fact based, like, are the dishes done? It's like you say yes or no, but like, Michael, how are you doing? Like, that's not a yes or no answer. And so it does seem like there's, you know, even just like the picture always goes to my head when we've talked about this is that when my kid goes hold you. Hold you? Yeah, in there. But they're, they're, they're mirroring back to you what you've said to them as like, hey, do you want me to hold you?

[11:37] Matt: Yeah, yeah.

[11:38] Michael: And they're does that. It's so, so adorable. So adorable. Yeah. But they're just saying like, okay, that's what this means, to hold you.

[11:46] Matt: Well, and it's interesting, you know, if I ask you how you're doing I'm not. I'm not asking for information exactly. I mean, it is something that I want to know, but it's not like I'm looking for a report.

[12:01] Michael: Yeah.

[12:01] Matt: You know, or like a console log of the underlying code that's running in your brain or something. Or what is it that I'm asking. I'm asking to know you, which is also something. Which is two ways in a sense. I'm asking to hold you. I'm asking to hold your thoughts. I'm asking you to hold me, to invite me into yourself. I mean, if that question is, I think, truly asked, sometimes we do just want information. And so let me put a couple of other ideas on the table here. As I was thinking through what it means that Jesus is described as the word, two things came to mind. One is there's this story when Jesus goes to visit. Well, it's Lazarus and Martha and Mary. I think the way in Mark that it's described is Jesus rebukes Martha. I think is the sort of, like, headline. So it's Jesus and the disciples are all there. This is represented really well in the show the Chosen. So there's a bunch of people around and Martha is hosting, so she's preparing food, she's trying to attend to the guests. She's caught up thinking about hospitality, which is good. And her. Her sister Mary is sitting next to Jesus, listening to him talk. Jesus is, you know, talking, giving parables, doing the thing that he does. And Martha is rushing about trying to make sure that every. Everybody has food and drink and everybody's taken care of. And she gets really basically annoyed with her sister Mary. And she goes to Jesus and basically says, like, will you tell her to help me? I'm doing this all on my own, you know. And Jesus rebukes her and says, basically like, no, your. Your sister has chosen the best thing, which is to listen to me and the way that it's represented in the Chosen. I think Dallas Jenkins adds what turns out to. I was looking this up the other day. I think it's a line From Matthew, Matthew 24:33. Jesus says, Heaven and earth, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. And he adds that statement to this situation where he's talking to Martha. He says, everything that you're doing, all of this food and the preparation and the. The. All of this, this will all pass away. And he says, martha, Mary has chosen rightly because my words will never pass away. And I thought, what is that about? My words will never pass away? Jesus is the word. In thinking about all of this language stuff, a couple of other phrases popped into my mind. One is, words are fleeting or talk is cheap. You know, we often think that the evidence of something is in its action, not in its word. Yeah, right.

[15:20] Michael: It's proclamation. Yeah.

[15:22] Matt: You know, we talked about this, I think, last week. It's like, you know, if I say that I love you, but I never do anything, you know, I say that I want to ask that girl out on the date, but I never do it. It's like, well, do you really want that? Then you're saying it, but you're not doing it, you know? Or say, you know, New Year's resolutions. Classic, right? Well, you said that you wanted to stop this or that habit or start this or that habit, and yet I see that you're not doing it. What is that? You know, we tend to think that the action is the proof of the thing, not the word, and yet Jesus is the word. What is that? Add to that the idea that. So, you know, so backtrack a bit and say, okay, you don't mean the words that you're saying. You mean something more, right? On the one hand, those who have command of their language tend to mean much more than the words that they're saying. On the other hand, you have the example of Aletta, my. My toddler. I don't know if I've said her name on the podcast before. I think I have. And she's this little chat GPT. You know, she doesn't mean what she means exactly. You know, she's figuring out what goes where. It's like, what's the most common thing to put? When this thing happens and this thing happens, and all of a sudden something clicks. It's like, oh, that worked. Okay, let's do more of that. And as we grow up, we get better at that. But also, I think you'll also notice that sometimes we still are like little chatgpts, meaning we're like little autocomplete mechanisms. We say the thing that we think we ought to say in a certain situation, especially in light social interactions. You say the things that get said. Right. You don't say real things. You say the things that keep the social interaction moving, or you say the things that you anticipate will make people think of you, what you want them to think of you, not the real things. Totally right. And so I thought, wait a second. God created in Genesis by speaking, and it says that Jesus is the word.

[17:56] Michael: So what?

[17:56] Matt: The word that was spoken. What if the power to create the universe is in the Word. And we have what, that inheritance in us, and yet we're not. I think the idea is that the perfect word when. When the truest thing is spoken, it has the creative. Has infinite creative power. But we're often not very true to our words. Right? Talk is sheep. We're not true to our word. We're not true to our word because we break our word. We're not true to our word because we're not conscious of what we're really saying. We're trying to hide behind formalities or something else. That's how we learn it, after all. We learn it through this imitation. And so we grow up, and sometimes we don't stop imitating. We talk the way others talk, not the way that we talk. And maybe that Jesus is the word because he is the truest thing is the truest thing. He does not say anything other than what he intends, and that has the power to create the universe.

[19:36] Michael: Yeah, I think that's a maybe.

[19:39] Matt: I don't know. This is what I've been chewing on.

[19:40] Michael: Yeah. Well, I think there's something about. This is too, like, in what we're doing, even on the podcast, and I was kind of doing this on Monday. I was talking about customer service with my staff. And I find that even in this is like, we're talking about something, but we're also discovering something. And I think that's the part that's different from just, like, reciting information. You're just telling information. But there's something in a conversation when you're discovering it where you actually can kind of acknowledge even what I'm talking about doesn't even scratch the surface of what it is. But you know what? I really want to get as close to it as possible. And that's kind of what you're doing in a relationship is you're like, I don't know you, and I want to know you, and I want to get as close to that as I can. And so right there, that, like, heightens a sense of curiosity and wonder. And, you know, you start. It's like. It's almost like it's a conversation of exploring and, you know, like, Chicago Mike, to. Our example before is like, hey, how are you doing? You know, there could be. It was like, okay, that's a nicety. Just give me the hey, I'm good, you know, Right. And then you kind of move on, and nothing really happens in that space. But if you're like, hey, how are you doing? You know, like, I'm fine. It's like, hey, I kind of noticed you were kind of like, you know, down the other day. Like, what. You know, what's up with that? Like, where. What's going on with you? And it just sort of like, kind of peels back the layers of the onion, you know, like, one of my kids was in a. In a situation or kind of like a state, and Allison kind of was kind of just dug a little bit deeper, and then the kind of floodgates open up as far as like, oh, okay, well, here's what's going on. And it's just. There's something about that, like, even if you're exploring things even academically, it can be just sort of like, I'm looking for information or it's like there's sort of a sense of wonder and awe that you approach that with. That's like the expectation of something more or bigger than what I could ever even touch. You know, I think that's something that, like, we can hide behind language, but language also allows us the ability to open something up and to kind of peer inside and to grasp at the words, to kind of like, describe them, you know?

[22:05] Matt: Yeah.

[22:06] Michael: And I think that's too, is like, even with, you know, Jesus, you know, he addresses all these different crowds in different ways. And it's like. It's kind of the mast mastery of that is like, in this situation, like, what is. What is to be discovered. And, you know, whether it was with Martha, you know, he could have just dismissed her altogether and be like, oh, Martha's being Martha, you know, but like, he. But he cares about her. And, you know, it's like. And, you know, communicate something to her that's. That's meaningful. And you see her. Even the little bit that you see over the. In the gospels about her kind of transforming too. Like, she's there at the cross with. I believe she's one of the. I don't know if she's at the cross, actually.

[22:47] Matt: I think she was one wasn't her and Mary who discovered the tomb was open.

[22:53] Michael: I think so. Yeah.

[22:54] Matt: Sunday.

[22:57] Michael: But you can't kind of see, like, how that's. That's transformative when someone is. Is. Is peeling back the layers of the onion and not just interested in the surface part of it.

[23:11] Matt: Yeah. We can use our language to be true or to be false. When you talk about hiding behind language, it's like, that seems like such a dark and lonely thing to do. And I think I've experienced some amount of exhaustion in my life before, by trying to sort of maintain, to keep up appearances. Right. But I think it's very exhausting to be false that way to, you know, how many times if you're really struggling in your life, if you're really hurting, how many times when somebody says, hey, how you doing? Can you go? Doing pretty good, you know? And every time, you know it's false, Every time, you know it's a lie.

[23:53] Michael: See, I have a. I have a hard time with the question, like, how are you doing?

[23:57] Matt: Yeah.

[23:57] Michael: Like, I'm always like, okay, what is this person asking?

[24:00] Matt: I know.

[24:01] Michael: I really.

[24:01] Matt: It's just, like, it depends on what you mean by how.

[24:07] Michael: Because, like, again, because I, you know, just being in coffee and lots of customers and people and. And stuff like that are. It's. It's like I kind of had to learn to gauge, like, what is it that somebody's asking?

[24:20] Matt: Yeah.

[24:22] Michael: But also, like, I've always found it fascinating to. I feel like there's always an answer that's appropriate for the time.

[24:30] Matt: I think so. And it is kind of fun to. To look for that. I mean, it is sort of like a. It's a puzzle.

[24:41] Michael: I saw it just real quick. The formality of, like, how are you doing? Is actually. I mean, it can kind of like, even just, hey, I'm doing good. There's something about that that even helps with just. It's a good place to start.

[24:53] Matt: Yeah.

[24:54] Michael: And there's no commitment. And I think that's kind of what that is. It's sort of like a. It's sort of like a fishing thing. You know, you throw that out there. Where are you taking the sauna? Like, some people, like, love to talk in the sauna. Some people just want to be in there and just be. And I've kind of just like. I just like, how are people? Like, so somebody will come in. I'm like, hey, how's it going? I go, good. I'm like, okay, that. That you're wanting to just be. So, you know, I just kind of let them be, you know? So it's like. So it's fascinating, too. It's like a good sounding board for, like, okay, is do you want to enter into something?

[25:29] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Again, you're communicating a lot more than just the words that you're using. I was visiting my mom this weekend and her neighbor, who's been her neighbor for 20 years. So I know you know him not well. But, like, we say hi and talk. And anyway, I said, hey. I walked over, said, how you doing? He goes, well, could complain, but nobody'd listen. And that's like another version of it. It's like, well, inject a little bit of lightness into it, you know, a little bit of comedy into it.

[26:07] Michael: I just love that. I mean, I think old people like have that sort of. Or some do, you know, as far as that just light heartedness or like, you know, like sort of the quips and stuff like that, that sort of like it kind of doesn't invite you into more too, right? Because it's like, like what do you say after that? You know, there's so many things to be said. Like you don't just like, okay, well I'll see you later. Yeah, like that's kind of an invitation. It's like a lot of old people that are, have been around and like are, you know, if you want to, like, they're, they're inviting you in for more and there's a lot of ways to do that. I think that's, I don't know, I just, I just, I love that sort of. Because I think that's fun too, to kind of be like, kind of throwing something in there that, especially if I'm, if I'm not in the place where I can have that conversation and maybe not, but it's like if I'm in a place where I just kind of pause and be like, okay, hey, I can be here for a little bit, you know, and you just kind of like, you lead with like, hey, how are you doing? You're like, wow, that's a really good question. I've kind of, I mean, I don't

[27:15] Matt: know how to answer that financially, emotionally, physically.

[27:20] Michael: I know, but even that is like, it invites them. Like, okay, are you, what do you want out of this? You know? And then so then like, wow, okay, well, well just give me, give me one thing you're thinking about or whatever.

[27:33] Matt: Yeah, you could come up with a lot of different funny answers. That. How you doing? Emotionally conservative, financially liberal, what that means. Yeah, it's a delicate little, those little social tests are really complex when you really think about it.

[28:00] Michael: Yeah,

[28:03] Matt: it's such an opportunity to play there. Or even to just mix up

[28:13] Michael: to

[28:13] Matt: replace one of those, hey, how you doing? Replace that with something else that's not so expected so that the person is like, oh, there's something different here. I'm paying attention. You know what I mean?

[28:28] Michael: Well, I just think about the interaction we had when we got dinner and just like, hey, oh, thanks, appreciate it. Can I get a little more ketchup and Just like the. The non response was just sort of like. I was like. I kind of felt like, did I ask it wrong?

[28:45] Matt: Yeah.

[28:45] Michael: Did I. Did I, like, make an intonation in the wrong way? Or am I. Yeah, I didn't know exactly. But whatever I said didn't communicate what I was. What I meant. And so I feel like I kind of tried to do it a couple of different ways with her, and I was just sort of like, okay, this. There's just. There's just not. There's nothing. There's nothing here. Like, you've kind of explained that to me without saying anything. M. And so it's. It's fascinating to kind of, you know, how we. How we communicate by what we say, what we don't say. Yeah, I think that's definitely, like in. In. In customer service is such a. Just such a unique thing, because I. I've seen it where somebody learns how to relate to people, but then it becomes a script, and it's. It. At first, it really works well.

[29:44] Matt: Yeah.

[29:45] Michael: And then it starts to die. And you also. I feel like you also see the person die a little bit inside, too.

[29:52] Matt: Yeah.

[29:52] Michael: Because they're not having the same impact that they used to. And I think a lot of it is because at one point you meant it, and now it's just a. A way that you saw that you were able to receive something, whether it be a tip or just reaction, it becomes transactional. Yeah,

[30:12] Matt: Well, I think that's a good segue back into this idea of using language to be true or false, because I think there are ways, many ways, in which we all constantly sort of falsely represent ourselves.

[30:30] Michael: And

[30:32] Matt: sometimes there's a version of that which is aspirational. You know, it's like, fake it till you make it, but other times it's a hiding. And it might be a hiding because I don't want to reveal to you who I am. It might be a hiding, because, I mean, the script that. The thing that was intentional, that becomes a script and it's repeated, you have a sense that that person has lost touch with what the original intent was. The original intent was to be relational. But now that it's a script and you say the thing and you're expecting the transaction, whoever is on the other side of that transaction is somewhat irrelevant as long as the transaction. I was reminded recently of Goodhart's law, which says that whenever a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. I think this is a good example of that. Yeah, it's like I come up with a way to interact that helps me hit my target. My target being whatever tips good customer satisfaction, thriving business, whatever it is. But then once I make that into a script, which that becomes the target. That ceases to be a good measure because I've forgotten about the original thing that I was trying to accomplish with it. So you become kind of false or indifferent to the person on the other side of that. And so I was thinking about, okay, we use words all the time. Clearly, Jesus is the word whatever that means. Not exactly. Sure. But I do know that I see evidence in my life that I can use words to represent myself falsely for many different reasons. I can also use words to represent myself truly, whatever that means. So what are the extremes? Like, what would it mean to represent myself truly perfectly? To perfectly represent myself? I think it would be something like Jesus. I mean, I am made in the image of God. I am not God. I'm made in the image of God. If I were to be truly true to myself, I would be like God, like the word. What would be the extreme on the other side if I were utterly false, represent myself utterly falsely. What are examples of a false representation? And then I think, well, that's what an idol is, right? An idol is a false representation. It's an exchange. It's. I exchange this for that, and I call this that. What's another extreme example of false representation? And the image that comes to my mind is something like demonic possession. Seems like a very extreme representation of being falsely represented. I mean, the person is not there. They're being. Possessed by something that isn't them. Right. And mostly our sort of images of demonic possession come from, you know, movies.

[34:13] Michael: Yeah, Exorcist or something.

[34:15] Matt: The Exorcist, the Exorcism of Emily Rose. Did you ever see that movie? I think that was the scariest movie I've ever seen.

[34:22] Michael: Oh, really?

[34:22] Matt: Wow. Yeah, it's really intense. But the Bible talks about it a lot. And I'm not sure that demonic possession necessarily has to be this sort of, like, horror movie kind of thing where the afflicted person is sort of gouging their eyes out in their skin and walking backwards and upside down on the walls, on the ceilings, you know, I think is something more like a completely falsely represented person. It's like, I. I know you're in there, but I don't see any evidence of you coming out. You know, And I think we've all either been there or known someone like that. And I'm not trying to claim that that really is Truly demonic possession. But on this spectrum of, like, what does it mean to be completely false and what does it mean to be completely true? I mean, I'm never going to be either. Yeah, right. I'm. Well, maybe in the end I will be one or the other. I don't know. But none of us are on those extremes. But I think the extremes are helpful to sort of understand what we're. We're dealing with. With that. But I think we've always all known someone who at some point in our lives or been that person where it's like, I know you're in there. I know I'm in here. I don't know how to get out. I don't know how to get out from behind all of these walls, all of these misrepresentations, all of my own desire to be seen and perceived in a certain way. My own shame that I'm really not that way in reality. You know, we might call this things. Like, what is that in a job where you have.

[36:04] Michael: Oh, crap, like the work wife thing,

[36:06] Matt: or no, no, imposter syndrome. You know, where it's like you get that new job and you show up and you're like, oh, I don't know that I deserve this. I don't know that I can do this. Maybe I overdid it on my confidence and I feel like an imposter.

[36:30] Michael: Yeah, kind of. I thought about American Psycho was like the antithesis on the other end, where it's like, you've created a self, you've created an image, and you're just walking inside a shell and you're. You're always sort of like propping up that shell in. In every direction. I think those are hard things because, I mean, I think we all have those parts that have to kind of be shattered, you know, Also things that work for us for a certain amount of time and that don't. Are no longer useful. You know, whether it be, you know, as a father or as a husband. You know, there are certain parts I've learned how to be a father and how to be a husband, but in acting those out, I sometimes fall into the role of father or husband and not an actual father or a husband.

[37:22] Matt: Yeah.

[37:23] Michael: Or a friend or whatever. You know, it's like. Or a business owner. It's like. It's just so interesting how the.

[37:29] Matt: That's. Maybe that's a really good example, which is sort of fleshing out this idea that we tend, you know, we said earlier, we tend to think that the action proves the thing, right? And that the word is cheap or fleeting. But you're giving this example where you can also. The action can belie the thing as well, because you start thinking that to be a good husband is to do X, Y and Z, and you start going through the motions, starts becoming this script. And just like with the example of the customer service script, it's like it starts to become indifferent to the irrelevant object on the other side of the transaction. And all of a sudden you're doing all the things that make you a good husband. And your wife's like, you're acting like, I'm not even here. You're like, what are you talking about? I do these things. Yeah, yeah, but your, your measure has become the target.

[38:26] Michael: Yeah, you hear this a lot with, with kids as they grow up. And, and then, you know, if you confront your parents about things that maybe they didn't do so well, it's like, well, I gave you all this stuff. I, you know, drove you here. I did this, I did that. And it's like none of those things were bad. But I think that's something that every parent has to kind of come to terms with, is like. Like, yeah, I failed you in areas. And I think those. Those are hard things. Just, those are hard pills to swallow. You know, whether it's with your wife or with your. With your kids or friends or whatever is sort of like you. You. You're going to meet that at some point. Well, so what's the,

[39:09] Matt: what's the antidote to that?

[39:11] Michael: It's like there is one.

[39:13] Matt: Well, I mean.

[39:13] Michael: Well, there is kind of, yeah, the

[39:16] Matt: antidote, or the, let's say, the remedy, rather. You, you discover that you've got some script running in your life that is taking place of the real thing, and your measure has become the target and the whole thing's fucked now. Right. It's like. Well, I think the remedy or the antidote to that is to get an updated picture of reality. And the way that you do that is by asking, by talking, by sitting down and saying, how are you feeling about this? Really, truly. Like, I know you told me this last week or last month, but how are you feeling now? Here's how I'm feeling now. It's like. And if that. That conversation were. Were done perfectly, meaning you understood everything that you meant in everything that you said and understood everything that she meant and everything that she said, then the f. And then. And then it were enacted, it's like that's a pathway for things to be as good as they could possibly. Be. So the Word isn't just the things that are said. The word, the perfect word, is that which has created the universe and then came into it, entered into that which was created to know it, not just to have spoken to it, but to relate to it. God, Jesus, the Word, perfectly spoken in with infinite power, created everything, and then he entered into it so that he could know it. And that's exactly what, like, that's the antidote, the remedy, the ideal by which you would have a great marriage.

[41:10] Michael: So I would say maybe an aspect of this. I don't know how. How far this goes, but forgiveness and humility are really the anecdote because you're going to be confronted with falling short. You know, it's like. And there's no amount of masking that you can do to. To, I guess, mask that fact. And I think that's. I think that's really hard because in any relationship, it's like you have to have the humility and, you know, even ask for forgiveness or to extend forgiveness to somebody else for relationships to continue. Because, you know, if you. If you don't have that, then you will never have any deep relationship ever.

[42:02] Matt: I mean, I think that's a really good point. It's like, for us, the antidote to that is forgiveness and humility. I think I was thinking conceptually, like, what is the ideal version of that? And the ideal version of that, I think, is something like the Word, as in Jesus. And I think we are to emulate that.

[42:23] Michael: Well, I think it's even on that side, too, because, like, you know, you think about Adam and Eve, it's like, what was the first thing they did is they hid, you know, they didn't want to be seen. They want. You know, it's like, I think that's part of, like, with what even, you know, Jesus represents is that sort of like that forgiveness and that reconciliation of a relationship is like, you're hiding from me. Yeah, but I see you. Are you. Are you willing to be seen? Like, that's what I think is what Jesus is saying to us. Are you willing to be seen? And the Pharisees are like, no. Yeah, here's the measure by which I am doing okay. I keep the commandments. I do all these things. I. You know, and they're just not. They're just not willing to be seen. You know, and I think that's. I think that's something that. When you see Jesus kind of exposing that, whether it's with Martha or with the Pharisees or even with Mary, too. Whenever, you know, their belief about their brother Lazarus, you know, is like, do you really want to experience this reality? And Jesus comes to display that reality, and you have a couple of different ways to react to it. And you have the kind of the Judas and Peter example of, like, Judas reacting to that reality. And there's a lot of, like, you know, liberty and, like, Judas backstory and stuff like that. But you do see this sort of like, Jesus didn't measure up to the reality that Judas thought the Messiah was going to be.

[44:04] Matt: Are you, when you're talking about liberty with Jesus's backstory, are you talking about the Chosen TV series, the Chosen, or

[44:11] Michael: just like, just any sort of, like, what was. What was going on with him? You kind of get some teasers as far as, like, what his inner, inner state was, you know. But I think the Chosen did a great job of kind of like, teasing that out.

[44:26] Matt: Yeah, I do. I do, too.

[44:28] Michael: But in either way, it's like Jesus was not who Judas thought he should be. Something was contradictory, and so he would rather have his idea.

[44:40] Matt: Well, Jesus wasn't really who anyone thought he should be. I mean, everyone sort of struggled with that, which to me is a really interesting. It's very interesting evidence in my mind of the divine authorship of that story. Because if you were going to write, make up a religion, you wouldn't start by saying, well, God's going to come reveal himself to man, and he's not going to be who anybody wants him to be. He's going to be, in some sense, a great disappointment. And he's going to be such a disappointment that man's going to kill him. And then all the people who did believe, even though they actually betrayed him too, they're going to get persecuted and all of them are going to get murdered. And you're like, wait, and you want me to get on board with your religion? What this is. You're not, you're not a good self. Good elevator pitch, you know, I mean, these stories are hard. These are very hard stories to, to contend with.

[45:44] Michael: But I think that's the part where you see with Peter is the humility and the acceptance of forgiveness. It's like, you know, Peter was sort of like, hey, you know, Jesus comes to him, says, ask him if he loves him three times. And there's significance to each one of those. And, and. But it broke him. And he's like, basically just like, hey, I'm. I'm. I'm wanting. I'm wanting the reality. I want that reality. Yeah, I misunderstood It. And I might not even know really what I'm getting into. But. But there's something about this reality that's more real than my actions before, because in my actions, I ended up denying you. And something in me broke when I heard that rooster crow. And then for you to accept me back, that says something about a reality that I want to be a part of.

[46:32] Matt: Right. Well, that's turning on this spectrum of true and false representation of self. It's turning toward the truth. It's saying, I want that. I don't understand myself. I betrayed you and my own word. I don't want that. I don't want to be false. I want to be true. And Judas does something like the opposite. He says, I guess to himself, what I did was so intolerable to me that I'm gonna take myself out. I'm gonna hang myself. I think that Eric Neumann describes in the Origins and History of Consciousness, he describes suicide as ouroboric incest, which is to. Give yourself up to the abyss. I think there's a version of that which is anyone who knows or has been or knows someone who has been addicted to something, especially like alcohol or drugs, you know that there's an element of ouroboro incest in that. It's like, I want to go. Intercourse with nothingness. I want lights out.

[48:10] Michael: Yeah.

[48:11] Matt: I'm so intolerable to myself. Or the world is so intolerable to me. I think it's mostly intolerable to intoleration to self, though, because you can kind of stand up against the world even when it seems the world becomes excused. Honestly, in that situation, I think the Judas syndrome is like, no, I am so intolerable to myself. My own falseness is so intolerable that I want to go full false. Something like that.

[48:41] Michael: Yeah.

[48:42] Matt: And full false is death.

[48:44] Michael: We see the scene with Columbine and the. Back in the. Was it the 90s when the school shooting. It's like there was this disdain for other. Yeah, but it's like, if you really look at it, there was something that. There was this disdain within themselves and not being able. Not being willing to face that. And sometimes that's brought on by other people. You know, it's like, you know, you're. You're in a situation where everything around you is hell because the people around you are making it so. But at some point, you have to be able. You have to make the decision for yourself. And I think that's. I think it's easy to put that onto. Onto others and kind of What I mean by that is, like, when you're a child, like, you don't have a lot of control over your environment. But if you're 45 years old and still mad at your parents for something that happened when you were a child, there's actually something wrong with you. It's no longer your parents, and it's something that you have to deal with.

[49:48] Matt: Yeah.

[49:49] Michael: And I think that's. And again, what. What age does that change? I don't know. It's arbitrary. But it's like. But I feel like there's something you have to take responsibility with. With that. It's like, either it's acknowledging, like, hey, that was a. That was. That was not an okay situation.

[50:06] Matt: It just reminds me of the scene in Home Alone where he meets the old guy at the church that he was afraid of for so long. And then they get to talking and he. The old man talks about how his relationship with his son is broken, and Macaulay Culkin's character encourages him to go talk to him. It's like, no, it's. That's the thing that happened in the past is in the past, and now it's on you.

[50:28] Michael: Yeah.

[50:28] Matt: To make amends.

[50:35] Michael: But that's the whole. That whole kind of scenario kind of throws me for a loop because it's like, I don't. I don't know where it. Where it shifts responsibility because, like, there's horrific things that do happen to people out of their control, but at some point, it shifts back on you to acknowledge reality, you know, And I don't know what that. To forgive. Even though somebody else. Somebody's not willing to accept that forgiveness, like, you have to forgive them for you.

[51:08] Matt: Yeah.

[51:11] Michael: I think that's hard to do, and it's so much easier to put it onto something else. Like, I was watching a. There's this podcast called the Financial Audit. I don't know if you've heard of it, actually. Offices upstairs from me. And. And this one, he had this one girl on, just talking about her finances, and she was just blaming everybody else for everything that was going on. It's like, you're not living in reality.

[51:36] Matt: Yeah.

[51:37] Michael: And he was trying to make that point to her, but she just kept coming up with these, like, sayings that you hear all the time, and you're like, you did this to yourself. Like, you cut your parents off. Like, why? Because they didn't believe exactly what she believed in. And it's sort of like, you can't do anything with that if you're not willing to come back and look and see how you are complicit in the very thing that you're railing against. You know,

[52:20] Matt: it's like that story. I think it's in Dostoevsky somewhere. He writes about this woman who's talking to a psychiatrist, and she's basically saying, I have all these problems, and I've decided that it's either something is wrong with the world or something is wrong with me. And she says, I'm really hoping it's something wrong with me. And he says, why would you hope that? She said, because I can't control the world. At least if it's with problem with me, I can do something about it. And the psychiatrist is kind of. It's like that scene in Ted Lasso where Keely's asking ted, would you rather be a panda or a lion? And then Jamie comes out and they're like, jamie, do you want to be a panda or a lion? He's like, why would I want to be anything other than me?

[53:03] Michael: Oh, that's right.

[53:05] Matt: And he says it in arrogance. You know, it's like, I'm me. Why would I want to be something else? Ted's like, I don't think you realize how emotionally healthy that actually is.

[53:14] Michael: It's so good.

[53:19] Matt: But that's hard, right? Like, well, if I'm the problem, I have to accept that I'm the problem. I have to accept that I'm. I have fallen short. I have to accept that I'm not adequate in some way. And I think if you let it, that can be incredibly hopeful because, well, I have room for improvement. I can do that. I can improve. I can grow. I've been improving and growing all my life. I came out of my mother's womb and I couldn't speak, I couldn't walk, I couldn't do anything. And I learned all this stuff, you know, it's extraordinary. And if I can see where I'm falling short, that's a great sense of hope. I think as we get older, especially, we start to see that and despair at it a little bit because we start to see, like, you know, when you're a kid, everything's a little bit

[54:12] Michael: like, black and white.

[54:14] Matt: Well, you're just pushing forward, right? Unless something's seriously wrong. It's like, you're gonna go through. You're gonna successfully go through the steps, right? You're gonna graduate high school, you're gonna get a job, you're gonna meet somebody, you're gonna do this, that and the other. By the time you Get a little bit older. You know, maybe your first realization. Maybe this is what we call a midlife crisis. It's like your first realization of this is somewhere around midlife. Typically, for people, it's around 40. It's like, wait a second. I'm not even close to where I expected I would be by now. Like, that's distressing. And all the things that I thought were moving me towards where I wanted to go suddenly don't look like anything that I actually even want. You know, I'm like, way off. But I just think we have to try to remember that if we can identify something that is. Needs improvement in us, well, that's something to do, and that's a good thing to have.

[55:15] Michael: Well, it kind of goes back to what you're talking about at the very beginning is like, what is language for? You know? And I think that's part of it, is like, language is used for discovery. It's like, hey, Matt, I'm sorry. Okay, well, what are you sorry for? Like, I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. It's like, sometimes, like, that's good enough, you know? And you're like, okay, I can extrapolate to what you're actually meaning because, like, you know, I kicked you in the shin yesterday or something. I don't know. You know, like, it's. And then it's like, we weren't even playing soccer. Exactly.

[55:57] Matt: Soccer.

[55:58] Michael: You just rolled over, like, a little. Anyways. But, you know, it's like, so that. So that. That can't actually be enough. But sometimes that's not enough. It's like. Like maybe either for the person or for you yourself. Like, you have to actually kind of go into. It's like, hey, I'm sorry because of all these things. And I explain in a way that communicates to you how I actually, like, am sorry. You know, it's like, I think that's. I think that's kind of like the fundamentals of language. Like, there's like, kind of the surface parts of how we use language. And, you know, it's like transactions and. But we all know that that's not enough. Like, you don't get married, and you're like, say the words, and you live happily ever after. It's like, no, it's like the words are something that you're aspiring to, something bigger and deeper, even the US Constitution. It's not just that. It's what it points to. It's like, what we're aspiring to. The idea of America is not, in the words of the constitution. It's what it points to. And so I think there's something. If you trade that for something that's just transactional as far as, like, man, I said I'm sorry, dude. Come on. You kind of come back to the thing you talked at the beginning. It's like, how you said it. It's like, the way you just said that doesn't mean you're really sorry. You said the words I'm sorry.

[57:28] Matt: But, like, I think so often people say sorry, and what they're really saying is, I'm annoyed with the current state of the situation, and I'd like it to stop. And if I can say magic words to make it stop, then I'll say the magic words.

[57:43] Michael: Totally.

[57:43] Matt: And it's like, I think, I wonder about this. I don't know that real repentance and forgiveness are widely modeled in our society much anymore. Yeah, I mean, those are very deep and mysterious concepts in some sense. I mean, there's a very. There's very surface level definitions for them, which I think are good. I mean, I think in general, it's like, what are you trying to say when you say you're sorry? Like, if you really. With the best intent, what is it that you're trying to say? I think what you're trying to say is, I repent. I change my ways. I did the opposite of what I would have aspired to do. And in some cases, it's like, I did it out of resentment. I did it out of lust. I did it out of pride. I did it out of sloth. I did it out of bitterness, hate, whatever it is that I did it out of, I did it and I did it on purpose. And I don't want to be that way. It's like I'm turning away. I'm declaring that a false representation of me. I'm declaring that the opposite end of the spectrum that I want to turn back toward.

[59:05] Michael: Yeah, Aspire, too, I think, is a great way to say it.

[59:08] Matt: Yeah. You know, but that's all pretty heavy, right? And, like, most of us don't want to admit that that's all going on inside of us all the time, even in little interactions, Especially in little interactions, especially with someone you've been in relationship with for a long time. But I think there is such a redemptive richness in the true acting out of true repentance and true forgiveness that I think is sadly foreign to a lot of the west right now.

[59:50] Michael: Well, check this out. Like, okay, you know, so when your kids are Young, you know, they do something that is wrong or is mean towards you, they're sort of like, it's kind of in a sense, somewhat easy to forgive your kids. In a sense there's ways that this goes wrong. But I'm kind of thinking of like more of a healthyish parents child relationship. But at some point it's like as your child becomes more and more cognizant and it becomes more intentional, it can be harder for a parent to forgive their kid. You know, I'm using this relationship specifically because I feel like there's kind of a natural sort of forgiveness that comes,

[60:32] Matt: you know, from parent, from parent to child.

[60:35] Michael: Yeah. But then at some point the parent has to actually be more. Intentional in that forgiveness, even though they're. They know. Because I think, I just think of like in a healthy, a more healthy, not healthy, but just more healthy relationship is like you've lived a lot more years than your child and you know that, that holding a grudge or a frustration is not healthy for that relationship. And if you hold that, you're actually, your kid is going to actually go get further and further away. And if you want to have a good relationship with your kid, you need to be able to forgive them, even if they haven't asked for forgiveness. And I think that's how you keep that bond with your kids. But I think that's, I think that's the hard thing is it's like that even happens on the other side is like, you know, when kids get in a fight, you know, two hours later they're best friends again. So I think it becomes harder as you get older because it's like, oh, wait, I have to be intentional in my forgiveness or asking for forgiveness because it doesn't just disappear in an hour or 15 minutes. But I think it's all, it's all, it's all acted out because it's like as a, as a kid, it sort of just makes sense. Like, it's like, okay, hey, we're good, we're good.

[62:00] Matt: Like, yeah.

[62:02] Michael: And it doesn't have to be said necessarily, but you do it in your heart. You know, you get a fight and you're like, in your heart, you've, you've forgiven each other and now you're best friends again and you're playing WWE wrestling again.

[62:14] Matt: You know, I always said NBA Jam. Yeah, he's on fire. I mean, what is, what is forgiveness? It's like, It's almost like saying that there's two realities and I'm choosing one over the other.

[62:38] Michael: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah.

[62:41] Matt: You know, if you hurt me and I forgive you, I'm not under any delusion when I forgive you that that injury didn't occur. I mean, this idea of forgive and forget is asinine. But it's like I'm saying, like Corinthians says, love keeps no record of wrong. It's like I'm choosing to not act in accordance to the injury, but in accordance to the aspiration of love, the aspiration of our relationship being a good thing. And I can do that because you're doing the same thing when you repent. You're saying, I no longer want to act according to my ways, which caused me to injure you. I want to act in accordance to the reality of aspiration, the aspiration of love. And by acting in accordance of either one of those things, you bring about more of them. If I say, well, I hurt you because I hate you, and I'm going to act in accordance to that, hate is going to grow and injury is going to grow. But if I say, I hurt you because I hate you, but I don't want to hate you, I want to love you. And so I'm going to act in accordance with love, what's going to happen? It's like I'm. Love is going to grow, and we're going to move toward truth. We're going to move toward goodness. So I think in both cases, you know, we stand at a crossroads in these interactions in our relationships all the time. And I think repentance and forgiveness is about both of us choosing which reality we're going to act in accordance with. And when you said earlier that, like, sometimes you need to forgive for you, not for them, I think that's why that is true. That is a truly necessary and good thing. Because even if you don't choose to act, to act in accordance with the reality that I'm choosing to act in accordance to, it still matters to both of us. I mean, if you and I have a disagreement, an argument, we injure each other, right? And you say, you know what? I'm. I've had it. I don't like you. I hate you. I'm not even interested in that changing anymore. That's just the way I'm going to act now. It's like if anybody says that of any situation, you know that they're going down a dark road. Yeah, they are. They are. Napoleon in Greytown choosing to move away from his neighbor. They're going out into the abyss. But even if you say that to me, I can say I'm choosing to act in accordance to love. And I can love you even if you don't love me. And I can love you even if we don't ever talk again. And by me choosing love to act in accordance to that reality, that is me turning toward the light and turning toward truth and away from false, the false, away from death, turning away from death, turning toward life. That is good for me, whether you reciprocate or not.

[66:13] Michael: I think it's hard to explain that what kind of. What we're talking about, because it's not that, like, if someone wrongs you, it's like it's still a wrong.

[66:24] Matt: Yeah.

[66:25] Michael: And. And by you forgiving somebody, you're actually taking yourself off of the road to hell. Because it's not that if, if, like, if, if you don't forgive somebody, it's not like it just stops there. It's like, what happens the next time something similar to that happens? It just kind of breeds itself. It kind of breeds more of the same. And, well, you're gonna.

[66:52] Matt: Yeah, you're going to become cynical, and then you're going to, at some point, have the choice to become nihilistic, and you're probably going to take it. And that is the road to hell. It's the road to nothingness. Nothing matters.

[67:11] Michael: Yeah. It's like. And your circle gets smaller and smaller, and it usually ends up being those who are embittered the most start gathering and even that. Feeding off of each other, off each other. And then even that becomes unbearable.

[67:27] Matt: The Internet makes that real easy.

[67:30] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's something that. I think that's why it's so important to like, be around people that you disagree with. And even if someone is like, you know, maybe literally wrong, it's like to forgive them. But if they're willing to be in relationship with you, you should be in relationship with them. And again, it's like there's also a part 2 where if someone has wronged you, it doesn't mean you have to trust them. But forgiving and trusting somebody, I think, are two different things. I think we've kind of talked about this before, but trust is something that you earn, and I think that's. And that you kind of have to walk into that lightly. But forgiving somebody is to not hold that wrong against them anymore. But it means if, I mean, if they wrong you again, it's still. That's still another. That's a whole other process of forgiveness. But trusting somebody is different. Like, if someone keeps Taking all your shit. You're like, oh, I forgive you. And you give them kitties your house. You're like, that's not smart.

[68:42] Matt: I'm gonna kind of update that. These are the. There's two observations. One, it seems like we live in a society in which the common and loudest cry is, there will be no forgiveness. There will be no forgiveness for that tweet you sent in 2009. We didn't even know about it until just now, but we found out about it and you're canceled. Right? No forgiveness. There will be no forgiveness for the sins of our founding fathers. Absolutely not.

[69:12] Michael: Or even like, you have 10 billion views. And that one view that you have that I disagree with discounts everything else you've seen, your life.

[69:22] Matt: Yeah, right. And I'm not sure exactly how this fits together. Maybe it doesn't, but you said trust is earned. I actually don't agree. I think. I think that trust actually in the west, in a sense, is and has been the default for a long time. Trust can be lost. But generally in the west, and especially in the south, in places like Texas, where we live, trust is the default. You tend to interact with everyone you know by assuming the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they have your best interest in mind. And you can see this. This is something that was pointed out by Jordan Peterson a long time ago. You see this? He talked about the rise of ebay, and he talked about trust as the most valuable natural resource and that societies that default to trust thrive. He talks about ebay, especially at the beginning when there was no middlemen and brokers and things like that. The idea was, I have something that I want to get rid of and I put it on ebay. You have something that you want, I have it. We've never met. I don't know you. You're going to send me money, I'm going to send you the thing. And it works like ebay became a popular site because that worked, because trust was the default. And generally people in the west are trustworthy. And I wonder how much all of that's changing. And it doesn't seem to me like trust. You know, we do talk a lot about how trust in institutions has eroded, especially in the last six years. And I think that that is true, and that's a little bit scary. But in general, in my day to day life, I tend to see that trust as a social currency is still very powerful and holding quite fast. I mean, I can go to a coffee shop or a bar or whatever, go to my Local pub. And I'm sitting there having a beer and I'm working my laptop. If I had to get up and use the bathroom, I wouldn't hesitate to look at the stranger next to me and just say, going to run to the bathroom and just make sure, make sure nobody fucks with my computer. Roofies might be her or something. And I would say that's 99% safe. Yeah, maybe 99.8, something like that. You know, generally, if you, if you ask for somebody's confidence, you know, somebody turns to you and says, hey, will you watch my stuff for a minute? You're going to be like, yeah, and you're going to take that seriously. But if we're simultaneously sort of saying there will be no forgiveness, do we become so risk intolerant that we start to question the default of trust and say, well, I don't know. I don't know if I can trust anybody.

[72:38] Michael: I think it's kind of like the prisoner's dilemma, you know, as far as, like, you know, if, if I, if we both trust each other, then, you know, we both win, you know. But if you trust me and, and I act in a way that's untrustworthy, it's like, I might win and I get your computer, you know. But I think there's something about that trust has been embedded in the west and specifically the south, that's culturally sort of like a norm, you know. But I feel like that's. If you go to any place that doesn't have that same trust, it's like it, it kind of has to be earned, you know, it's like. But also has to be given. Like, somebody has to start. Has. Someone has to start trusting.

[73:25] Matt: Right.

[73:25] Michael: And usually that means they're going to be taken advantage of. And I think there's something with that. Like, even in Czechoslovakia or Czech Republic, Vaslav Havel, you know, kind of had this whole thing where he was saying, hey, love will win out. And people just laughed him off the stage because it's sort of like, no, we in the Czech Republic have been run over by every single war that there has been. It's like, like we can't trust anybody. We're just going to be used. People are going to tell us what to do, when to do things, and we just have to kind of comply or whatever.

[73:57] Matt: Yeah.

[73:58] Michael: And. But really, by the time of his death, it's like it kind of transformed the culture, you know, to being people that are a little bit more hopeful, you know, so it is. I. It's My. I don't think it's as clean as. What I said is like, trust must be earned. But I think there's something about. I think a few people extending that trust starts to impact the culture. To where then?

[74:26] Matt: Well, you're kind of reinforcing my point. I mean, they're extending unearned trust, which breeds more trust.

[74:37] Michael: That's the part, I think that's the two sides of it, is it's a minority that extends the trust until it starts to become a majority, which is. Then it's like it's kind of earned its way to embed itself in a culture. But once that starts to break down, it's like, people don't. It takes the outliers to extend that trust. And you see that with, you know, individuals that, like, whether it be Martin Luther King with, you know, peaceful protest, you know, at first it's just like, well, people got the shit beat out of them. It's like, why would I do that? But over time, it started to have some impact, and more and more people started. It's almost like the first dancer, you know, the first dancer sort of like laughed at, and then the second one starts a movement, you know. But I feel like those who extend trust are the minority, but can lead to more people trusting that and it being more acceptable.

[75:47] Matt: Yeah, I'm wrestling with this because I'm thinking the idea of trust being earned, you know, I don't trust you. Maybe trust is something like akin to love, you know, I don't love you because you've never hurt me. Right. I love you despite it. I don't trust you because you've proven that you're trustworthy. I trust you because I love you. It's something like that. Because if you. It's like, I'm not trustworthy, not perfectly trustworthy. I mean, I aspire to be a man of my word. I aspire to do the things that I say that I'm going to do. But I fall down on that all the time, you know, if you trusting me was dependent upon my behavior, we'd be screwed. Right. If trust was earned, that bank account would be constantly falling to zero, I think. So I think trust has to be extended. And by extending trust, I mean, I think when somebody trusts you, it makes you a better person because it's extending to you something like grace. It's extending to you something like credit. It's extending to you something like freedom. It's saying. It's me acknowledging you and your aspirational nature. It's me Saying, I believe you want to be a man of your word. And so I'm going to act according to that. And

[77:24] Michael: yeah, I just, I, I don't disagree with you. I'm just, I just think that is a. I think that's a minority viewpoint as far as, like a minority situation. Because I even, like, parents create a space of trust with their kids, you know, and it's something that is. Has been hurt, but once that is broken, you know, a child recoils from like their parents or something like that, you know, it's like, it's like you, you kind of have to earn that trust back over time by, by being somebody who is trustworthy. And I think that's, I think it's hard, like, when trust is broken, it's really difficult to earn that back.

[78:10] Matt: Yeah.

[78:11] Michael: And it takes something like, you kind of have to look a couple steps above as far as, like, you know, like, I can forgive you and I will extend some trust. But it's also, don't be a fool, you know.

[78:27] Matt: Well, so maybe that's a better way just to get to where I'm going there. It's like the idea that trust is earned is most applicable once it's been lost. Once you've lost my trust, you probably do have to earn it back. You have to demonstrate repentance. Essentially, you have to say, no, I want to be trustworthy, and I'm going to demonstrate to you. It's like going back has to be real too. It has to be real, so it has to be spoken. This is back to the word and the entering of the word into reality. It's like I have to. I have to speak my intentions to you, and then I have to enact them into reality. If I fail to do either one of those things, I guess either can be proven false. I'm not sure.

[79:25] Michael: Yeah, I think what we're talking about is not super clean. It's somewhat a kind of a both and. But I think that's even what kind of Jesus demonstrated is like he was willing to come and give himself for a world that didn't want him. They didn't realize what that sacrifice would mean. Even the disciples and that we're supposed to kind of like, you know, take on that example to the world is like to extend trust where trust is not deemed, you know, safe to extend that trust to, you know, but we're also meant to, like, you know, Jesus talks about, like, you know, be innocent as lambs and wisest serpents. Wise as serpents in us as lambs. It's like. It's like, we're not supposed to be dumb about it, but there's something about being able to extend yourself and to make it easy for somebody to kind of escape that sort of. Shoot, now I kind of lost all the words, but the hell that is sort of not being able to be in relationship with someone, which is not to be able to trust somebody. And.

[80:51] Matt: And that really is quite hellish. And it doesn't really matter who it is. It could. You know, the loss of relationship puts strange boundaries on your life. I mean, just thinking about a couple of examples in my own life where I've lost relationships, it's weird. It's like there's certain places you can't go then. I mean, kind of both physically but also, like, sort of emotionally puts up these boundaries in your life, these walls in your life. It's no good.

[81:31] Michael: Yeah, it's like, you know, even with, you know, former staff members that might have been happy with me about something, it's like, it's like, even for me to be able to, like, forgive them, you know, and for them to forgive me, too. And it's like, I've experienced that where it's like, okay, you know, hey, it's like, I'll extend the olive branch here, you know, it's like, but you don't have to take it, and it's fine, you know. And then other times, it's like, you know, you see somebody, like, you're faced with that, you're like, oh, God. It's like you don't really want to face it, you know, it's just like, I just rather not look at that.

[82:12] Matt: Yeah.

[82:14] Michael: You know? Yeah. I think that's. I think it's hard to. To be the one who extends the olive branch and be okay with it not being accepted, but to keep it open to somebody else,

[82:34] Matt: it's hard to take it, too, I think, because to take it, you have to let go of whatever else you were holding onto. Sometimes you don't want to let go.

[82:44] Michael: Well, even like someone who's. Who's hurt you, it's like. And they say, hey, I'm sorry. And you're like, are you like, are you sorry?

[82:55] Matt: Yeah.

[82:58] Michael: And then you can require too much of them, you know, it's like, well, if you were sorry, you would mow my yard for the next three years.

[83:07] Matt: Prove it.

[83:07] Michael: Prove it. It's like, oh, that's kind of not fair.

[83:12] Matt: Well, that's the interesting thing is there's nothing fair about forgiveness and repentance. The whole thing is totally unfair.

[83:19] Michael: Yeah.

[83:20] Matt: You know, it's like what's fair is an eye for an eye. And we're choosing not to live that way because an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. And we're choosing on purpose to be unfair.

[83:36] Michael: Yeah, Yeah. I'm just trying to think, even just with our political divide right now, as far as. I'll forgive you as long as you think and believe the same things I think and believe,

[84:00] Matt: as long as you self flagellate hard enough and long enough that I believe that you're full of shame and you take. Take on my perspective. I don't know. When you just said that our political divide, my response to that in my gut was I don't think we're divided politically. I think we're divided spiritually. And I'm not sure exactly where that comes from or how to flesh that out, but it does seem to me like there is a. Maybe you could say we are divided in one example by those who will say that there will be no forgiveness and those who will say the problem with society is that we've forgotten about forgiveness. That's a spiritual divide.

[84:54] Michael: Yeah.

[84:55] Matt: Meaning. And when I say spiritual, I think it's to go back to that continuum about words. What are we using words for? What is the meaning of the things that we're saying? And we can use it to be true or we can use it to be false. We can use it to hide, we can use it to reveal, we can use it to manipulate, we can use it to encourage and cast light on hope. One is the road to life, one is the road to death. And I think we're divided on which direction we want to go on that road. And I will say, you know, to those who want to go into the land of the false, I don't think that they would agree that they're on the road to hell or to death. They would say that they're on the road to probably something like Utopia, something good. But that's. That's the. The crazy thing is when you exchange God for an idol, utopia becomes a gulag and death becomes us.

[86:08] Michael: I think I have a lot to say about that stuff. I don't know if you want to get into it or not.

[86:13] Matt: We're kind of at time, so maybe we should pick up their next.

[86:19] Michael: What's your. What Maybe some final thoughts just to kind of wrap it a little bit. Do you have any final thoughts? I can go first if you want.

[86:29] Matt: Go ahead.

[86:31] Michael: Thinking no, I've really enjoyed this we've kind of explored a lot here. And I think that's something that it's like. How to be in relationship with somebody I think is really difficult, and especially with people you disagree with. And I see that it's something to aspire to. And I just kind of. Because customer service has been on my mind right now, and something that kind of stood out to me. It's like. It's how you treat the person that doesn't tip you says more about you than the person that. How you treat the person that does tip you. And there's something in that that I've kind of. I believe truly and. And to kind of pay attention to is like the people that I have the most problem with say more about me than the people that I don't have a problem with. And it's something for me to be aware of.

[87:26] Matt: Yeah.

[87:28] Michael: And then there's another side of that, too, is sometimes the people that are closest to me are the ones that I take advantage of the most, and I need to be aware of that.

[87:46] Matt: I think my final thought is, pay attention to your utterances. Think about what you actually mean. Going back to our original example of the I didn't say she stole my money. There's like seven distinct meanings behind them. Whenever you speak, just pay attention. What is it that you actually mean? And could you say what you actually mean instead of pass the salt? You know, what would be revealed to you about yourself? If you could try to say what you actually mean, you might be shocked by what you actually mean. You know what I mean?

[88:33] Michael: Totally.

[88:34] Matt: And discover that there's more false inside of you than you want there to be. And that puts you in that position where you can choose hope or despair. But I think in that case, if you find yourself there, you're more aligned with reality and there is hope to be had. And to say, I have found myself to be false and I'd like to be true. And maybe that starts by saying some things that I don't want to say, which is I've been pretending about a lot of things, and I have to confess that those things aren't true. And now I can live more closely in line with reality. And I think that's a really good thing. I say all that as if I'm encouraging you out there. Who's listening? But I'm saying it to myself. I want to pay more attention to that. I want to be more considerate of saying what I actually think. And if I don't know what I think, saying that rather than saying the thing that's expedient towards some goal, however false or hollow it may be. And when somebody asks me how I'm doing, I want to try to give a true answer, not an inappropriate one. It's like there's context to be aware of.

[89:52] Michael: My hemorrhoids are flared up.

[89:54] Matt: Yeah, right. It's like a little TMI for the beginning of the business calls.

[90:00] Michael: Don't tell the customers about your hemorrhoids.

[90:04] Matt: But I think that there are more true answers that you can say. And maybe if I actually want to know how you're doing, I can figure out a way to ask you. That isn't the sort of throwaway line that we all just say all day long to each other, you know, it's like, I think Allison's good at that. You know? I don't know that she ever. If I imagine if she wants to know how I'm doing, she might say something like, how's your heart? It's like, ooh, wait, how is it? Kind of hurts, you know?

[90:42] Michael: It's like there's blood flowing through it. Yeah.

[90:45] Matt: 74 bpm. That's a little high. I must be anxious or stressed. All right, Spock.

[90:52] Michael: Exactly.

[90:55] Matt: All right, final thoughts over.

[90:56] Michael: All right, cheers, guys.

[90:58] Matt: Cheers. Love you out there. Thanks for coming along.

[90:59] Michael: Yeah. For the ride.

[91:03] Matt: Until next time.