About This Episode
Matt and Michael wrestle with a question that has been hanging over both of them. Why have they stopped paying attention to the news? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? They land on the idea of a Cartesian crisis. Nobody trusts anything anymore. Every headline is met with an actually from someone who thinks they have the real truth. They explore how skepticism can lead to nihilism or to wisdom, and why character assassination has replaced actual argument. Then things get interesting. The conversation turns to what it means to truly love someone versus simply labeling them, why we have lost the definition of racism, and how dress codes and tattoos are really just signals we send to the world about who we want to be. They contrast David Bowie and Bob Dylan as two models of subversion, one grounded and one spinning off into the void. They talk about Jung, individuation, and why growing up means learning to reincorporate what you once rebelled against. And they end with a story about a fake recruiter that captures just how deep the trust crisis really goes. Cheers y'all 🍻
Key Quotes
"Skepticism is going to turn to nihilism, and that's a problem if it stops there. And what you should do is push past nihilism into wisdom. But skepticism is sort of the door that leads you to one or two of those things. I think we have to be skeptical about our skepticism a little bit."
— Matt, 09:57
"Something that's worth resisting. It makes me think of Jacob, who wrestled with God. Something that's worth resisting. My dad used to say to me when my son was younger and he was really angry about our divorce, he used to say, I think that's because you're safe to be angry with. He's angry, and he's showing you your anger because you're safe to do that with. And he's like, I think you should be that for him. And that's that. I mean, all relationship is resistance. It's pressure, it's tension. And Jacob wrestles with God, which is to say, what? Something like, he wrestles with truth. He wrestles with ultimate reality, and ultimate reality wrestles back."
— Matt, 16:08
"If you think you have the truth. No, I've got it. You don't. You try to possess it, you die. I mean, just think about a relationship, a romantic relationship in which you try to possess the other person. I mean, what does that even mean, to inhabit them, to own them, for them to be yours in some sort of possessive way? I mean, a possessive girlfriend is generally thought of as. That's not what you want, Right. Maybe what is good dies when you claim to have the ultimate truth, you claim to have morality and others don't, rather than taking the proper position. Or maybe the alternative position, which is we all have access to it, none of us has it because we're all clearly fucked up anyway. We all must submit to it."
— Matt, 23:52
"I think what love does is actually looks at us and actually looks at the kind of person we are, not at the kind of agreement that we would like to have, but says, I see some things at odds in you. On the one hand, I've known you to be very kind and generous with me, and on the other hand, I'm seeing you treat this other person in a way that's not commiserate with that. I'm noticing that. Is that what you want to do? Is that who you want to be? Seems to me like you've shown me that you want to be something different. And I think love says, you know, hey, you were manipulative just there. And I don't like to think of myself as a manipulative kind of person. Love says, yeah, but. But you are. That was there. You just did it, and it's okay. I forgive you. You should look at that though, you know, and come to terms with that."
— Matt, 30:12
"God is, by definition, his own definition, the only one who really is who he says he is."
— Matt, 74:03
"Be confident, but don't be a dick."
— Matt's friend, as recalled by Matt, 55:56
Resources & References
- Erich Neumann — The Origins and History of Consciousness — Jungian analyst; book discusses individuation, the Ouroboros, and the psychological development of consciousness. - Link ↗
- G.K. Chesterton — various works — Quoted by Matt on "men who truly believe in themselves" being in the insane asylum. - Link ↗
- René Descartes — French philosopher whose epistemological crisis gives the episode its central metaphor. Link ↗
- Bret Weinstein — Popularized the term "Cartesian crisis" in online discourse. Link ↗
- Jordan Peterson — Mentioned regarding his tweet about "Judeo-Christian" and his framework of skepticism leading to nihilism or wisdom. Link ↗
- Charlie Kirk — Referenced regarding the one-year anniversary of his murder and the media response. Link ↗
- Carl Jung — Discussed via Neumann on individuation and the need to reincorporate after leaving the "Ouroboros." Link ↗
- Dave Chappelle — Referenced for his early-2000s bit on clothing and judgment. Link ↗
- David Bowie — Contrasted with Dylan as a subversive artist who remained articulate and grounded. Link ↗
- Bob Dylan — Contrasted with Bowie as an artist who became so subversive he lost connection with his audience. Link ↗
- Paul McCartney / The Beatles — Mentioned regarding drug use and artistic creation. Link ↗
- Martha Stewart — Used as an example of someone who seemed above moral reproach until she wasn't. Link ↗
- Ted Lasso — Referenced for the "You have to believe" theme. Link ↗
- Rage Against the Machine — "Killing in the Name" — Referenced by Michael as the anthem of youthful rebellion. Link ↗
- The Ark of the Covenant / Uzzah — Biblical story from 2 Samuel 6 / 1 Chronicles 13 about a man struck dead for touching the ark. Link ↗
- Jacob wrestling with God — Genesis 32; used as a metaphor for wrestling with truth. Link ↗
- Shores of Ignorance Website Link ↗
- Matt's Links Link ↗
- Michael's Links Link ↗
- Sovereign Goods Link ↗
- Cafe Medici Link ↗
Fact Checks
-
"Charlie Kirk's murder" one-year anniversary
Needs clarification. -
"Joe Biden didn't sign his own pardons"
Disputed/Unverified. -
"Joe Biden's book"
Verified that a book was announced; authorship claims are opinion. -
"Show me a young person who's not a liberal..."
Disputed attribution. -
"You'll know my disciples by their fruit"
Verified (Biblical). -
"I do the things I don't want to do"
Verified (Biblical). -
"Men who truly believe in themselves are in the insane asylum"
Paraphrase/Approximate. -
Erich Neumann's "Origins and History of Consciousness"
Verified. -
Descartes and the Cartesian crisis
Verified.
Threads for Future Episodes
-
The "Judeo-Christian" Debate
Matt mentions at [04:57] that Twitter was hot with a battle over the term "Judeo-Christian," with Jordan Peterson weighing in and many names Matt knows coming out against him. Michael says at [78:43] he'll have to look into it and is curious to hear Matt's take. Suggested follow-up: Dedicate an opening segment to unpacking this debate and where each of them lands.
-
The Nature of Racism — Deeper Dive
They touched on this extensively ([14:32]–[35:32]) but didn't resolve it. Matt explicitly says at [33:55] he wants to put a sharper definition on the term because "we've lost the term. I don't think we really know what racism is anymore." They discussed stereotypes, dress codes, signaling, and the difference between noticing reality and being prejudiced. Suggested follow-up: A full episode on race, stereotypes, and what healthy judgment actually looks like.
-
Transgender Identity and the Will to Control Reality
Matt briefly touches on this at [41:51] as an extreme form of demanding reality conform to the self rather than submitting to it. He explicitly says "maybe in its extreme forms, trans is a kind of that." This is a thread they didn't fully pull. Suggested follow-up: A careful, good-faith conversation about gender identity, bodily autonomy, and the philosophical tension between self-creation and submission to reality.
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The Collapse of Trust in Institutions / Information Ecosystem
Matt's recruiter scam story ([65:38]) and the broader theme of the Cartesian crisis could be its own episode. They ask: "Where is this going to drive us?" and suspect it will drive many people to God. Suggested follow-up: How do you rebuild trust once it's broken? What institutions, if any, are still trustworthy?
-
Art, Authenticity, and the Audience
The David Bowie vs. Bob Dylan contrast ([49:42]) opened up rich territory about what artists owe their audience, the difference between subversion and nihilism, and why some artists burn out while others endure. Paul McCartney and The Beatles' drug use came up as a related thread. Suggested follow-up: What makes art "true"? Is caring about your audience a betrayal of artistic integrity or the whole point?
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Parenting, Rebellion, and Letting Kids Individuate
Matt talks about wanting his kids to rebel to some degree ([60:04]) and the responsibility of elders to provide structure while allowing individuation. Michael connects this to his own daughters and conversations about tattoos and nose rings. Suggested follow-up: A parenting-focused episode on raising kids who can think for themselves without spinning off into the void.
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The Recruiter Scam / AI and Identity
Matt's detailed story about the fake recruiter with the stolen LinkedIn profile ([65:38]–[68:47]) is a vivid example of a larger phenomenon. Suggested follow-up: How is AI and deepfake technology making it impossible to verify identity? What does that mean for hiring, dating, and basic social trust?