Philosophical Seinfeld

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. All right.

[0:20] Michael: Yo.

[0:22] Matt: Howdy.

[0:23] Michael: Howdy. How are you?

[0:25] Matt: I'm good.

[0:27] Michael: You're so good.

[0:28] Matt: I'm great. Cheers.

[0:29] Michael: See the shores.

[0:30] Matt: To the shores. I think the heat has got my brain a little scrambled.

[0:37] Michael: Yeah. A little addled.

[0:39] Matt: Are we at the peak of it or is there more coming?

[0:42] Michael: I think there's more coming.

[0:43] Matt: Your car. We were driving to dinner. Said 111 degrees outside. Yeah.

[0:50] Michael: It's been such a pleasant summer, though.

[0:52] Matt: It has so much rain and cool weather, and I feel like we're about to get our dose of punishment.

[0:59] Michael: Yeah. Usually it happens, like, by the time we're already used to it, so it's not that big of a deal, but. Yeah.

[1:07] Matt: Does. Feel. Are we in the middle of summer yet?

[1:09] Michael: I think we're past the middle of summer.

[1:10] Matt: Past the middle?

[1:11] Michael: Yeah. The summer solstice was end of June.

[1:14] Matt: Okay. Well, I guess that matches my feeling. It. It feels like it's time to start moving the other direction.

[1:19] Michael: Yeah.

[1:20] Matt: Even though we probably haven't hit our hottest days yet. No, but just in the arc of the season of life.

[1:27] Michael: Totally. I always feel like it's around August 15th. It's like plus or minus seven. I feel like. Okay. The summer broke and now we're still going to be hot, but it's decreasingly hot.

[1:38] Matt: Right. Right.

[1:39] Michael: Yeah.

[1:42] Matt: So.

[1:42] Michael: Yeah.

[1:42] Matt: I don't know. I feel like in my own sort of inner life, my own thinking, there's sort of like the present. It feels weirdly balanced between the. The past and the future. Old ideas, new ideas. Not quite sure where I am.

[1:59] Michael: Yeah. I mean, even, like I was talking to you before is like. I'm kind of chewing on some stuff that I'm kind of not ready to really talk about because it's. It's too sporadic. It's kind of all over the place. Not that I'm always. I'm always all over the place, but it's even more so. So it's. It is kind of fun to. I think those are the hardest places to be is when you're kind of the. Those in between seasons or even ideas or concepts. You know, it's like when you're. You're kind of transitioning into some new thought or idea, and you. You can. You can kind of almost taste it, but you can't really explain it. And then it starts to kind of, like, chew around a little bit, and then all of a sudden you're just like, oh, okay, start rolling with it, you know. Yeah, I really like that.

[2:44] Matt: What do you do in those in between times?

[2:47] Michael: Flail around aimlessly? No, I think it's hard to say because almost with everything, anytime a season changes, like, I have to have a sort of like a. Similar to, like an identity crisis or something that you're like, no, this season is about this. And you slowly have to kind of start to die to that and discover what that new season's about. And there's always some sort of, like, struggle, and then you start to kind of release into what's. What's next.

[3:22] Matt: Yeah.

[3:23] Michael: And so I think that's sort of inevitable, but I think it's been. It's. It's come easier but not less painful. How about you?

[3:34] Matt: Well, I don't know. I. I'm remembering that a couple of weeks ago we discussed the question, what do you do when you don't know what to do? It's like maybe, Maybe this little season that we're talking about, this in between space, we've kind of been in it for a few weeks or a month maybe it's starting to feel like, okay, I'm ready for this to break into something else. Kind of like the way you're ready for summer to break into something else, or you're ready for winter to break into spring and have been in it for a little while. I'm ready for it to break into something else. And, you know, but you don't have any control over it. You just have to. You have to live it, live through it.

[4:17] Michael: Yeah. It kind of reminds me of, you know, someone gets hurt or something like that and like in a relationship, and then you just tell them, well, just get over it. It's just that easy.

[4:28] Matt: Oh, I forgot I had that button. Yeah, let me press that real quick.

[4:32] Michael: Yeah. Or, you know, a parent dies or, you know, someone close to you dies or whatever, and it's. It's. There's a season that you kind of have to just be in. And I think that's sometimes hard.

[4:44] Matt: But I also think that there is a choice involved. I mean, it reminds me of the conversations we've had around anxiety and that sort of interesting suggestion that faith and anxiety are opposites. They are mutually exclusive. You cannot have faith and be anxious or be anxious and have faith.

[5:06] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[5:07] Matt: And interestingly to me, it's interesting that Jesus says that we shouldn't be anxious. I mean, he says it like a command. And I read that. I hear that sort of like, you know, when I've gone through a breakup and My heart's broken. Someone says, just get over it. It's like, what are you talking about? Just get over it. You know, Jesus says, don't be anxious. I'm like, what are you talking about? Don't be anxious? I would rather not be anxious. But I am. It's just like the state of me.

[5:35] Michael: Yeah.

[5:36] Matt: How do I stop doing that? You know? And I think there are answers to that. I don't have them.

[5:42] Michael: What are they?

[5:42] Matt: I don't know. I don't know exactly. But I think it has something to do. It has something to do with faith, and it has something to do with an insistence on the present. There's this. There's this line in Streams in the Desert, which is that daily devotional that I read every day that your. Your wife gave me, actually. And it said, the past is forgiven, the present is full of hope, and the future. Sorry, the past is forgiven, the present is full of power, and the future is full of hope. And there seems to be this insistence, like when Jesus says, you shouldn't be anxious, he also says, don't worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow has enough trouble of its own. Worry about now. Be here. It's kind of like, be here now. You know? Is that that phrase? Yeah, that's what he's saying. And again, I'm like, well, yeah, but also, I've got bills due and responsibilities and like, all these other things. But that's tomorrow's problem, not today's. And if you can kind of let go of that. And, you know, this. This exercise that I've done internally and I've talked about it before, which is, like, when I'm going through something difficult, sometimes I will do this where I'll sit down and think of everything that I'm grateful for. And all of a sudden, as I'm doing that, my life looks way better than I thought it looked just moments before.

[7:14] Michael: Totally.

[7:15] Matt: So I think part of it is a matter of seeing things properly, because we tend to become very fixated on problems and very fixated on pain. Right. You don't really fixate on comfort. And when you're comfortable.

[7:28] Michael: Yeah, but you're.

[7:31] Matt: Yeah. If you're in pain, you fixate on that. And it can be, if you're in enough pain that you cannot perceive anything other than that pain. Pain can be blinding. Right. So I think, you know, one thing is you can stop fixating on it. I mean, you were talking to me about customer service earlier and how, you know, when you get good at something like customer service and you start figuring out what works. I think we talked about this a little bit last week. Goodhart's law applies, which is as soon as a measure becomes the target, it's no longer a valid target. As soon as you kind of figure out how to be good at customer service and you start doing it, it starts becoming an act and it loses all of its. All of its grit or consumption, it's genuineness. I don't know where I was going with that. Totally lost my train of thought.

[8:26] Michael: Yeah. I think it had to do with not being anxious and something about the. It's like whenever you fixate on something, whether it be pain, you don't fixate on comfort.

[8:43] Matt: Yeah. If you stop fixating on the problems. And one of the problems might be, well, I don't know what to do. What do you do when you don't know what to do? I don't know. Well, maybe stop fixating on that and start observing what is around you. Like the actual state of things.

[8:57] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I think something that I forgot. Who told you this? Last week you shared with me. Just also just focusing on relationships. Yeah. And there's something about that too. It's like getting out of your head. And you know, this is not all about you. Or even if you go and help somebody.

[9:20] Matt: Yeah.

[9:20] Michael: There's something just really powerful in getting you out of your. Like, oh, I'm not the only one that has problems. In fact, everyone that I walk by has a problem.

[9:30] Matt: So interesting. A friend of mine, I put this question to him. What do you do when you don't know what to do? And even more pointedly, when nothing seems to be working, you're sort of thwarted and you feel futile. This friend in the past had said, go read the Old man and the Sea, which you and I did. And we did that episode on it, which I thought that was a really good episode. The moral of that story is basically like, no, Being a man is just futile. It's completely futile. But his advice to me, when I was asking him, what do you do when nothing's working? You don't know what to do. And he said, focus on your relationships. And what's interesting is I did that. And over the past couple of weeks, I've reconnected with like three or four old friends that I haven't talked to in 15, 20 years. And it's not exactly because I reached out to them to see if they wanted to reconnect. It was just by ever so slightly attending my gaze, my attention toward relationships. Not any particular one, but just toward like I'm going to comment on this person's post or I'm going to share this thing I was thinking about with this person. And it's like a domino effect kind of happened where all of these interactions unlocked, not interactions I was specifically looking for, but they came as a result of that slight shift in focus. And I was like, I'm not sure that that's exactly an answer to my question.

[10:55] Michael: Yeah.

[10:56] Matt: But I really did enjoy reconnecting with people and it was a productive experience in that. A lot of opportunities arose, a lot of, would you say, sort of just companionship. Just like it feels good to, to talk to someone who has known you for a long time and to share their life. Even just the 10,000 foot update of the last two decades and you share yours. You just start see something different. I was amazed by that.

[11:35] Michael: What is that? Because I mean there's one thing that went through my head was like, that also can become performative. It's like, oh, if everything's going wrong, then just focus on relationships. I know that's not what you're saying, but just kind of, it seems like you kind of get into a rhythm of like, if you're really like trying to figure out something of yourself and you're just kind of going inward, sometimes that's good. And, and, but then sometimes it's not. And that's, that's kind of where you need to kind of like see how you can be effective in other people's lives.

[12:10] Matt: Yeah.

[12:10] Michael: You know, and then there's sometimes where you can hide from yourself in that. And I think that's the, that's. I think that's the difficult thing is just kind of knowing. It's like, am I hiding from something? It's like, oh wait, I'm hiding from the people around me. I need to engage in that. Or I'm now hiding in the people around me and from myself. And it just seems like that's again, kind of come back to where we were talking about. The beginning is the different seasons is kind of knowing what those seasons are. Sometimes there's a season of introspection that's good and healthy, but if you stay in it too long, it starts to kind of like, you know, like you were talking about last time, the snake eating its tail. It's just sort of like it just feeds on itself and it's just circular and there's no end to it. But it's more dynamic to that. It's like you go out on an adventure and sometimes the hero is by Himself and struggling with something. And then other times he's out defending and seeking something.

[13:09] Matt: I go, I guess you even see that in Jesus. You know, part of the time he's saying, let's go into this town and start talking to people. And the other part of time he's like, I'm going to go off alone and pray.

[13:19] Michael: Yeah, get some rest. And yeah, that's fascinating. It's just how dynamic. There's not a answer. Again, it comes back to. It's, it's all relational. Like sometimes you need to go and spend time away from people and with God. And it's like other times you need to be with people and participate in that.

[13:41] Matt: Yeah,

[13:44] Michael: yeah. Because I think that's something that, like, I want to figure it out, then I'll go do it, have it all nice and neat and packaged and then I can do it.

[13:58] Matt: So I just thought of like reframing this back to our original sort of changing of seasons frame. I noticed one thing that you do when the season starts changing, especially when winter breaks and spring starts to come, people do spring cleaning and you tend to do similar things, but we don't have names for them like that. Like when fall comes around, it's like you start getting out the alternate napkins or placemats, or start putting away some of your summer stuff, the fly fishing gear or whatever, and start getting out stuff that is preparing you for that next season. And you do a similar thing once winter comes around. It's like you pull the sweaters out of the closet or the box under your bed and start getting out the coats that have been tucked away and you find the $20 bill in the pocket. But it's like you subtly prepare and make room for the things that are coming in the next season. That's why we spring clean. It's like the sun's coming out, the flowers are starting to bloom, things are turning green, things are changing. Let's make room for what is coming, even though we don't know what's coming. And maybe there's a version of that in these seasons of thought, these seasons of the inner life, seasons of spirituality that don't necessarily map to the. The seasons of, how would you say it?

[15:32] Michael: Physical seasons.

[15:37] Matt: Maybe it's similar. It's like, I don't know where things are going, but I feel something new coming. And the best thing I can do is make room for that, prepare for that, let go of some older things, pull out a new book off the bookshelf, maybe start a brand new journal.

[16:02] Michael: Yeah, That's a. Yeah. Because I don't have a lot of, like, I don't have summer or winter clothes. Like, I kind of do. You know, it's like. But like, it's really just two modes for the most part right now. It's one mode. It's.

[16:21] Matt: It's not even two modes. It's one mode and a jacket.

[16:25] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[16:27] Matt: And they do mean a jacket.

[16:29] Michael: Totally. I got two jackets. One's my cold, cold jacket.

[16:33] Matt: I've never seen that one come out.

[16:34] Michael: It's the black one, then. Yeah.

[16:36] Matt: Anyways, I have seen that one.

[16:39] Michael: Yeah. But it's. It's interesting. I mean, you know, as far as, like, moving from season to season also just, you know, whether it be like, your kids and, like, I mean, you're kind of in two. Two different types of seasons. You're in a season of your kids starting to leave the house, you know, and. But also a season of new life coming to.

[17:03] Matt: Yeah.

[17:03] Michael: You know, understanding themselves and stuff. So it's kind of interesting to. As a parent, you. You have a. And it's like you have to, like, pay attention and participate in that season. Like, if you're treating your kids like they're, you know, five or six, and they're 18, 16, 17, 18, you know, like. Like you're just. You're out of step with what. With what's happening. And I think that's. That's kind of. I think that's even kind of where the anxiousness comes from. It's like you're just out of step and out of sync with what is happening around you. And I think that's even kind of. I mean, Jesus even does that with. When the disciples are in the boat, they're like, jesus, wake up. There's a sign. He's like. It's like, do you not understand? Like, you know, he's like. Treats him like. Like they should get this. And it's like, yeah. Like, I don't get it either. Jesus.

[17:51] Matt: Yeah,

[17:55] Michael: but it's like, even that he's like, you know, you. You have me here now. It's like, at some point you're not going to have me here like this. And. And how can you. How can you understand that? Like a child that's going 18, that's moving off into the world. It's like, you just don't. You just don't know what it's. What it's like until you're.

[18:18] Matt: Yeah. We were. Took, my youngest, who's two and four months, down to visit my mom in San Antonio, and. And she, not my mom. My youngest is just obsessed with swimming right now. She loves to go swimming, and I love going swimming with her. It's so fun. So we took her two or three days in a row. And she's fearless, man. She'll just jump in the deep end with nobody there to catch her. And all the rest of my kids, when I was teaching them to swim, it's like, they want you to be there, and you're having to coax them. It's like, come on, jump in. I'm here. I'm gonna catch you. And my youngest doesn't give a crap about that. She just jumps in. And so I was talking to my mom about it, and then. And she'll go underwater, and she thinks she can swim, and she just flaps around like a fish, but she can't get up above the water. So you have to go and you have to get her. And then as soon as you get her, she goes, no, I want to swim. And she pushes herself out of your arms and she tries to swim again. And so I'm working with her. My mom was talking to me about it, and she's like, I'm scared for her because she thinks she knows how to swim, but she doesn't. And if you're not right there, she's going to drown. And I was like, yeah, but I am right there.

[19:29] Michael: Yeah.

[19:30] Matt: And I'm really glad that she has no fear, and I'm glad that I can be the thing that mitigates, that allows her to have no fear. But there is that sense of, but I'm not always going to be there. And so something else has to happen. It's like, she needs to learn to swim.

[19:48] Michael: Yeah.

[19:50] Matt: And I was just thinking that seems like somehow deeply, metaphorically true of an adult's life in some sense as well. Like, even as we get older, it's like.

[20:04] Michael: I mean, is there. Is there some fear that's actually helpful? I mean, even, like, you know, you think about, like, it says in the Bible, to fear God, and the translation I've heard kind of with the words that use, it's more of, like. It's more of like, a respect, a holy respect that. Like an awe almost. And I think that's something that. So that's different from, like, being afraid to jump in the water because you're scared versus, like, I respect that the water is something I have to contend with. Yeah. You know, it's like there's. There's a. There's a healthy fear in that. It's like understanding. Understanding your environment, but not so much that you are. It's paralyzing or something like that.

[20:48] Matt: Yeah.

[20:49] Michael: So maybe there's something in that. Like, you know, do not be anxious. It's sort of like, don't interact with your environment unhealthily. See, I mean, like Jesus talked about, like, I'm with you. It's like, well, you know, Aletta can. Is a lot more braver because you're with her.

[21:09] Matt: Yeah.

[21:10] Michael: And she trusts you. And there's something about that. It's like when you. When you do trust somebody, it's like you don't have that fear. So maybe there's something with that. Whenever he's saying, do not be anxious, it's like

[21:29] Matt: someone gave the definition of said. The definition of truth is conforming oneself to reality. And you see this a lot in our modern culture. So many of us don't want to conform to reality. We want reality to conform to us. And reality doesn't do that. It won't do that. And so you have to live in sort of a delusion, which is, you know, maybe why the prevalence of mental illness is very high.

[22:06] Michael: Or anxious among young adults, too.

[22:09] Matt: Exactly. Yeah.

[22:11] Michael: So.

[22:11] Matt: So what I'm trying to do with Aletta when she's swimming is help her conform to reality. Part of that reality is I am there, and I will never let anything, to the extent of my power, I will never let anything harm her. But there's another reality, which is if I'm not right there and she jumps in, she is gonna drown. And that's a reality she needs to be conformed to. So it wouldn't be a sense. Right. For me to, let's not say, protect her from that reality in the long run. It's to help her to conform to that reality. And in that reality, there's some things we need to do, which is you need to learn to swim and practice that so that you can get to the side safely if something were to happen. And isn't that what we were talking about in the. In between time, before the breaking of a season? It's like, what do you do? Well, maybe look around and consider the way you're perceiving things. Maybe make some room for something, some new things that's also conforming to reality. It's getting out of the state of fixation or disorientation and getting into a position of conforming to what's real.

[23:33] Michael: Well, it's like you do that with your kids a lot, too. I think your swimming example is Perfect. Because, I mean, I remember teaching my kids how to swim. It's. You kind of let them struggle until they kind of feel. They kind of get that like, oh, wait a minute, I need help.

[23:50] Matt: You need. Yeah, they kind of need to get that tinge of like, oh, I see. This is dangerous.

[23:54] Michael: This is dangerous. But you're there. That. You don't let that get. You don't let that go too far. It's like you kind of just let them experience it, but then you kind of. You jump in real quick. And you do that when they're young, a lot faster. And as they get older, you kind of have to let them be in it for themselves and figure that out. But you're always there to help.

[24:16] Matt: I wonder if that's what the fear of God means. What do you do with something very, very powerful? It makes me think of in the book of Job, Job's life's completely ruined, and it seems completely unfair on the part of God. And Job essentially takes his complaint to God. And one of the things God says is, who can thwart the plans of the Almighty? He's basically saying, I'm God, after all. There's nothing you can do to thwart my plan. Well, it's like, okay, and this was a part of your plan. Well, maybe. And maybe that's something that you need to contend with, and you should be afraid. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, should you be afraid of guns? Yes. Especially if you own one. Because that fear is what engenders respect, which is what makes it safe and a useful tool. And it isn't a fear of it necessarily hurting you, because as you come to learn to respect and take care of guns properly, that fear goes away. You know, I feel confident handling a firearm, and I'm not afraid that it's going to hurt me.

[25:35] Michael: Yeah, but you respect it.

[25:36] Matt: But you respect it. And I think it's the same. Maybe it's the same with God. It's like, I'm not afraid that God is going to hurt me. But in terms of, like, if you could scale up the firearm example to, like, a nuclear weapon, you know, there should be some fear around that. There clearly is. What is the most powerful thing in the universe? It's by definition, God. And I'm claiming to want to have a relationship with him. Maybe the best place to start is, I don't know, the user manual of this thing. And it has limitless power. So maybe I should tread carefully and with some caution, maybe even with some fear, you know,

[26:25] Michael: yeah.

[26:27] Matt: And. And maybe by approaching God that way, I can have a respectful, healthy relationship with him and in which that fear goes away because the confidence takes its place.

[26:41] Michael: Well, so this is interesting. I mean, a part of me wants to kind of like, look at a world, okay, A world without God. Like, what is that? What does that. Even the things that we're talking about. Like, what does that even mean? Like. Like. Like having fear or respect for what it's like. Because, like, that's the part. Okay, well, you have a fear of respect for nuclear bombs or guns or something like that. Well, it's like. It kind of. It teaches you something about the world around you that there's something that you can't control. However, when you put it in a gun form, there's something that you. That's. That is controllable, but it doesn't mean it's less dangerous. You know, it's in a form that. That you can kind of wield, you know, so you kind of get to. You kind of get the. The experience of being able to wield something that is way more stronger than you. Like, to be able to deliver a bullet is a lot stronger than delivering a punch, you know, or delivering a nuclear bomb is a lot stronger than delivering a punch, you know, So I think it's just interesting that, you know, like, how do. How do we approach, like, what. You know, it's. It's this abstract thing that. Where do we put the. I just don't see how you can. How you can have that. What I'm trying to do is think about it with. In a world without God, is. Is. Is. You can kind of see, like, there's a respect that you have for. You know, okay, well, there's these. To be a good person, I have to have this. The other person has to have value of some sort of. And so I have to assign value to that. But if you don't assign the correct value, then it gets distorted really quickly. And I think that's the part that, you know, without this idea of God, like, where we talk about in the Constitution, like, you know, the rights are inalable to the person and because they're created in God's image. So we're saying it's like there's something that's inherent in the person that they have. And that you have to kind of respect. But if you just start arbitrarily assigning value to things. Yeah, I just can't. I'm sorry, I can't get all the way there.

[29:25] Matt: Where are you trying to go.

[29:26] Michael: Well, I'm just trying to, like. Because it's like, okay, if I use the words sort of like, kind of. We're talking about, you know, this idea of like, God created this space and, and it functions a certain way and that you need to be in right relationship to reality, in which is what we're kind of talking about here. It's because there is a reality and there is a relationship to be had with it. And when you're outside of that relationship, you know, things start to go wrong. However, things go wrong anyways because, you know, other people are not in right relationship with reality, you know, and so I just. I just, I'm just trying to think of like, how does somebody without the idea of God explain these things, you know?

[30:15] Matt: Well, probably by using words like common sense and science and. And decency and humanitarianism. These words that seem to have a value to them, which is intrinsic.

[30:44] Michael: Yeah, I guess it's a. I mean, again, if. If that's the case, it's like you're. You're building a worldview that doesn't hold a lot of, like, why is that. Why is that better? And that's the part that I don't. I can't never grasp from, like, outside of something outside of the universe or something outside of known physical time and space as sort of the author of that. That reality, you know, And I see, like, you can. You can kind of. You can build this sort of structure, but it's just a really flimsy structure. And someone's like, well, I don't believe in your structure. And it's like that. It's and. And violate that structure that you're. It's like, what do you.

[31:42] Matt: Yeah, so it's interesting, it seems to me like you're trying to compare and contrast how you deal with a phrase like truth is conforming yourself to reality. How do you compare. Contrast that with and without God? Because with God, I can say what reality is in a way. I can say it is the reality that has been authored by God, the story in which I have been placed. And it has certain limitations and certain laws and certain physical attributes, spiritual attributes. And it is intelligible to me because God has given me the ability to comprehend it. And so I can make sort of heads or tails of what it might mean to conform myself to reality. That might be my physical circumstances, or it might be my spiritual or emotional circumstances that I can make peace with because I can conform myself to them. So if you take God out of that and you say Truth is to conform yourself to reality. Well, what is reality? And I suppose you would have to start by. Being a. What's the word for that? Physical. What is the word for somebody who only believes in physical things? Basically materialist, materialist. I could start with a materialist standpoint and say, well, reality are the atoms and laws of nature that govern them. And I, in my consciousness, as a result of the atoms and the laws of nature that govern them, by some accident, have formed themselves into who I am. So what is it to conform yourself to that? What is even self in that? Who am I? How can I ask a question like, who am I within the materialist worldview? How can I think about the atoms that make up the thing that's thinking within a materialist worldview? And so I think from that worldview, the answer to, well, how do you conform yourself to reality? Is it's like, well, you accept the consequences of cause and effect. You learn from your mistakes. You perceive what is good and bad for you. And maybe by extension, you say, well, me and my family, or me and my family and my community, or maybe even me and my family and my country. My country is an extension of me. So what is good for my country is conforming myself to that, to reality. But I think you run into an interesting problem within the materialist worldview because, you know, back to the Declaration of Independence, men have inalienable rights because they're unalienable, because they were given by God. They would not be unalienable if they were given by someone else. If the rights are given by the king, the king can take them away. If the rights are given by Parliament, Parliament can take them away. And on what grounds are they rights anyway? They're rights on the grounds that that pleases the king or it pleases the parliament, or it pleases the government. So they're not even really rights, they're just what pleases someone else. They're really only rights when you abstract them to the highest place and say, these are given by God, and so no man may violate them. So I think you lose the concept of rights, because rights aren't a material thing. Rights have something to do with inheritance. Ultimately, in a worldview with God, that inheritance is from God. God gave me a mouth to speak and I should be able to use my inheritance to speak. God gave me a right, or God gave me a body that is autonomous. I have individual autonomy, and that should not be violated. But the point at which you get rid of God, those really aren't rights anymore. They're just preferences of another group of people. And that's violative, I think, of the human heart in a way that seems inhumane to me. And it's arbitrary, I think.

[36:40] Michael: Yeah, I think you made a really good point as you kind of made me see something whenever you said that. And you can correct me, but what you think is right as an individual and then you extend that to your family and then maybe like a larger community and then a larger community. It's like at some point you're going to run up against somebody who thinks differently from you and starts that, those, those things start to compete. And so like, yeah, it's like, how

[37:11] Matt: do you, I don't even think you have to scale up very far for that. It's like you're going to be arguing with your family members about totally, yeah, the rules.

[37:20] Michael: But there's something about that, that competition for ideas is, is like if you don't have, if you don't have something greater to reference, it really boils down to power, you know, And I think that's where kind of like the postmodern world has kind of come to is like it's, it's a power struggle. It's all about power. It's all about power.

[37:44] Matt: Power is all there is.

[37:46] Michael: And so I think that's kind of where it's like an inevitable place you get to from a, a humanist or materialist viewpoint is that at some point it's all self referential. And so if someone doesn't, doesn't agree to your presuppositions, it's going to come to blows. Where I think the argument you and I would make would be like, okay, hey, there's something that is true that's not dependent on my, my knowing it or believing it. And so, so I, I believe that we can come to this together, you know, And I think that's something that we see right now in this whole like communist. Well, it's kind of masquerading as socialism, but it's really communism. It's like, no, we've done that. This is not, this is not good or healthy. Like that worldview only ends in, at the point of a gun. You must right. Submit to this. Right, where like in our, our worldview

[38:51] Matt: of like the person pointing the gun is willing to fire.

[38:55] Michael: Willing to fire. Yeah, but I think that's where like, you know, the United States, we say, no, each person is an individual created in the image of God. And so that's like, that's like paramount to. And that's and paramount to, like, our society and how we, how we function. But if you start losing that, and it's like it's about the community, and the community has the rights over the individual. It's like it really starts to be who, who's and who's in control and who's, who has the power within that community to determine what is right and what is wrong, you know, and you don't let ideas compete because it's like the government decides what's right and what's wrong.

[39:50] Matt: Has there ever been religious claims that come alongside communism? Like, did Lenin or Stalin or Mao make any kind of religious claims?

[40:06] Michael: Well, I know, like, I mean, Marxism for sure. Like Marx talked about, you know, religion is the opiate of the masses.

[40:11] Matt: Right.

[40:12] Michael: You know, so it's, it's, it's not, it's not something that can be a part of communism. You know, I mean, there's some you know, sort of like, you know, gift to your neighbor, you know, but it's, but it's, it just differs because, like, there's this sort of idea of like, you're, you're helping and being a part of a community that you're helping by contributing your, your labor and your resources to the community. But it's like, it's not determined by the individual. It's determined by, like, whoever is in charge.

[40:57] Matt: Well, yeah, and in that case, it isn't contributing either. It's slave labor, it's forced labor, it's a concentration camp. Because if it was you contributing voluntarily, you wouldn't need the communism. The communism is the, is the, the boot. It's the gun that turns your voluntary contribution into a mandatory sentence.

[41:24] Michael: Yeah, but that's the crazy thing. Like, a lot of stuff that I'm hearing is people are like, no, it's like everyone just lives together and we, we contribute and we help each other. And it's like, well, it, someone's telling you, telling you what to contribute, and if you're not contributing the way that the majority feel that is contributing, then there's, there's a consequence to that. And, and I think that's the only part that people really hear is like, oh, I want, I want free health care. I want, you know, not to have to pay rent. I don't want to, you know, and, and all those things are. There's a cost to them and who's going to pay the cost, and, and then who determines who pays the cost? I think that's the, that's the thing that a lot of people aren't willing to look at is who's paying for this, and not just with money, but with their time and labor. And it's just kind of like all of a sudden, people are just going to be willing to do that for free. It just seems really naive.

[42:34] Matt: Yeah. How did we get off on communism?

[42:36] Michael: I don't know. I think I'm just circling around all these different ideas that are kind of competing and trying to. Stand on some sort of authority that I. I can't and don't understand. And. And I feel like I. Every time I come into these things, I try to kind of dissect them. It's like I feel like everything's always smuggling something in that doesn't actually fit. They just like, oh, well, everybody knows to be. You know, love your neighbor. Like, that's just. That's just. This is common sense. That's common knowledge. Like, that's helpful. It's like. But, yeah, but like, what does that mean, love your neighbor? You know, Is it love your neighbor whenever they believe the same things you believe? Or, you know, it's like there's. There's. There's a whole thing that kind of comes in here that I think that sometimes we just take for granted what it's like. But when you come at it from like, okay, everyone is a child of God. Okay, okay, okay. Across the board, everybody has value, you know,

[43:42] Matt: there's no love your neighbor in communism. I mean, that's smuggled in. I think, to use your term, is. It's smuggled in as the sort of utopian idea. If we all love our neighbors, things will be better, which I think is true. But in communism, it's love your neighbor so long as they're doing the things you want them to do. And the moment they stop doing those things, it's actually your moral obligation to annihilate them because they are the immoral cause of all of the bad effects in the community, which is why communism always comes with genocide. So what happened to love your neighbor? Well, I mean, it's kind of a classic victimizer trope, right? Well, I tried to love them, but they were unlovable, you know,

[44:42] Michael: so it's hard. So it's like. Even like, just the idea of, like, you know, tough love, too, is like, if. If someone's like, say, like one of your kids or something like that is doing drugs and you tried to help them and tried to help them, and. And it's like, hey, you have to move out. And then like, well, where am I gonna go? It's like, it's like, actually, it's not my problem. It's like, that's, that's really hard to do. And, you know, is that loving your neighbor? It's like, but you're also enabling them by continuing to provide a space for them to do, to continue functioning the way that they're functioning, you know, and that's not, that's not a self example.

[45:34] Matt: I went to church this weekend for first time in a long time, like maybe at least a decade, I don't know. And the, the sermon was on. I think it's in Matthew somewhere where Jesus is talking about, you know, take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the speck from your brother's eye. He's talking about hypocrisy and judgment. But then it's interesting because Jesus ends that little passage by saying, but I don't think he says, but also. But it seems that way to me. Do not feed dogs what is unholy. And do not cast pearls before swine, lest they run you down and kill you. So it's kind of like, yes, don't be hypocritical and judgmental. But also, don't forget discernment. You know, it's like you try to save someone who's drowning and they won't stop thrashing. They're going to drown you with them, and that's no good for them or you. If someone who you love is not accepting your help, it is unfortunately like casting pearls before sw before swine. That's just the reality of it. And, you know, it's a metaphor. But he ends it with, lest they run you down and kill you. There is that danger.

[47:11] Michael: Yeah, Yeah. It's another one of those, this is not a tidy bow type thing.

[47:20] Matt: Right.

[47:20] Michael: It's like, what does it mean to love your neighbor? Well, sometimes it means, like, withdrawing.

[47:25] Matt: Yeah.

[47:26] Michael: And it's like, how do you. How do you do that? It's like, well, you have to have a system that, that is free to be able to make those judgments both wrong and right, and to allow those to kind of work themselves out. So you can't have somebody dictating from on high.

[47:45] Matt: That's a good point. Maybe that's another reason why you should be fearful of God. Because as hard as you try, you're not going to get things right. You can be committed to loving your neighbor, but you're not going to really know what that means, especially when things get really tough and you're going to have to try something you're going to get it wrong at least some portion of the time. And so there needs to be a healthy fear of your own ability to fuck things up. And ideally live in a world that can tolerate that. And I don't mean tolerance in sort of the modern sense. I mean a world that won't fall apart because of it. And just as contrast, communism is not such world, is not a world that can tolerate somebody not doing it right according to the collective. And so that person must be eliminated or that group of people must be eliminated, which always results in an even worse catastrophe. Because the people who thought they knew what was right, they were wrong about what was right. It's like, let's get rid of all the kulaks. Oh, shit. They were the only ones who knew how to grill food. Famine. Oh, shit.

[49:05] Michael: Yeah. It's interesting, just the whole idea of like, wisdom with that.

[49:11] Matt: I mean, I think in a sense, wisdom is ultimately humility. Wisdom is, I don't know, the right answer.

[49:23] Michael: Well, even just the systems we've set up is that, you know, we kind of compete for ideas is. And I think that's the beautiful thing about United States is like, we even allow states to sort of work out certain ideas and, and sometimes they fail, but it doesn't bring down the whole system, like all 52 states. And so there's something about having that, like, that respect for, like, we don't know what is right. So it's like, let's allow enough freedom on a state level, on a county level, on an individual level, city level,

[50:00] Matt: individual level, to find out by doing.

[50:03] Michael: To find out by doing, which is

[50:05] Matt: what a market is.

[50:08] Michael: Yeah, because like, once, like, you know, the federal government determines what's right for everybody, maybe there are some things we can kind of like, protect, but I think that's where you have the Bill of Rights. It's like, okay, here's some things we're not going to violate and we're going to be held accountable to, you know. And so, you know, we have all these laws and stuff like that, just as long as they don't violate those basic Bill of Rights, you know,

[50:39] Matt: because

[50:39] Michael: if we violate those, then that's kind of where the. We, we know that the government has overstepped its bounds. But with like a communism, it's like you don't really have those same restrictions on, on the. On the governing body. I mean, I guess you could say no, because you, you'd have to put the. You'd have to put the impetus on the individual where that Just doesn't have the sign. Doesn't happen in communism.

[51:09] Matt: Right. Yeah, well, so maybe that's starting to flesh out another answer with what to do when a new season is breaking. Be willing to be wrong. Try some things. Be willing to be wrong. Yeah, you might mess it up, but you'll learn something from it. And you can try again. You can try something else. You're, you're in new semi uncharted territory. So you're going to have to learn by failure.

[51:46] Michael: Well, there's that part too. And I, sometimes when I'm in a difficult situation, I just want someone to tell me what to do. And it would just be so much easier if someone just ruled my life and told me what to do. But then I also wouldn't learn the lesson that I need to learn. I would, I'd be like a child who never experienced freedom. And I just, I don't know what it means to fail or to, or

[52:22] Matt: even just the joy of learning something new. Failing a bunch of times, then finally getting it right. And it's like, oh my God, can be euphoric, you know?

[52:34] Michael: Yeah. I don't know why this subject is so hard for me right now. I, I, I, I'm so conflicted in so many areas. It's like, and I, and I, I don't think I can really pinpoint them very easily as far as, like, It's like, I know that in my life I have to make decisions and also have to carry the responsibility for those decisions. Because if you don't, then if it doesn't work out, then it's always somebody else's fault and that's kind of easier. But if I make the decision, then I'm responsible for the results. And there's something that is kind of empowering in that and whether I'm right or whether I'm wrong, and that's kind of like, comes back to the idea of like conforming to reality is like, if I don't make a decision and in the attempt to conform to reality and I find myself in error, then I don't, I don't actually learn anything. And so I think that's the part that, that I just can't reconcile with. I think that's kind of why we kind of talked about the communism part is like, it feels like it's saying that we can reconcile that for you. And I just like, I don't, I don't see how that works. You know, when you start a business, if you don't have the market to be able to tell you whether what you're providing is useful or helpful or good, then you really don't know much about what you've created. You know, because if somebody is saying that you have to. You have to buy this or you have to purchase it, it's not really telling you whether or not what you're doing is of value to the community.

[54:44] Matt: Well, it's like building an airplane and never trying to fly it. You're just keeping it in the hangar and you're saying it flies, but you've never tried it. You've done all the math. You're convinced yourself that it does, but until you try it, you don't know. I mean, I guess that's the way it is with all things, with all ideas, with all relationships. You know, that's why you have people. Whether it's in romantic dating space advice or business advice, it's just like, shoot your shot. You know, you got to live it to know it. You can't. It's not a. This isn't a theory, y'.

[55:18] Michael: All.

[55:19] Matt: This is your life you're talking about. It has to be lived. I mean, your point about the market is a great point. It's like, we don't know what things cost. We don't know what things are wanted and not wanted until we try. It's the same with elections, right? We can poll all we want, but we aren't going to know the answer till we have the election. Why is that? Why are the polls not adequate, but the election is? Why can an idea sound great on paper? And then you implement it and it is a complete wreck? Why is that? I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but one of those reasons is. We can fall in love with ideas, and when we try to implement the idea in reality, we reality fights back and says, yeah, you didn't think that through very well. You didn't think about this and this and this and this. And you ignored this thing over here because it threatened your precious idea. But in reality, you don't get to ignore this thing over here.

[56:42] Michael: So crazy. You definitely see that in relationships, too, as far as, like, you know, when you first start dating or something like that, and. And you have a negative reaction from, you know, the person that you're pursuing. You know, it's like. It's like, oh, you smell. It's like, oh, well, you've got to deal with that. It's like, okay, well, I'm a shower more often. Okay, I'm gonna clean my room. It's like, it's like, you know, the first time I think you kind of notice where especially a boy as a girlfriend or something like that, it's like they start to kind of actually, like,

[57:17] Matt: you know, straighten up.

[57:19] Michael: Straighten up a little bit. You know, it's like. Because, like, okay, I'm not. I'm not what I need to be to be able to be presentable to the world. So how do I clean up my act? And there's something about that relationship between a man and woman that really does, like, motivate you to, like, conform to reality. Sort of like, okay, I'm not all that I could be. Yeah, it's like, you know, and I think that's the part too, is like, you mean even for women, too, as far as, like, okay, how do I become desirable to a man? You know, and obviously there's. There's the looks part of thing, and that's very. That can be kind of shallow. But it's also important too, you know, for both men and women. But, you know, you start to think of, like, what do I really want in a partner? Like, what is valuable? And so you start putting together this worldview that if it's just about, like, looks, it's like, once you start, like, living that reality, it becomes really shallow. And you experience that, like, it's a real thing. It's a. It's a shallowness. It's like, if someone doesn't actually care about you, let's say you get maimed or something like that, it's like, oh, well, you've just lost your value. And it's like, well, it's got to be deeper than that. Like, what is that? That's deeper than that. So, again, kind of coming back to relationships that it really does teach us something about that conforming to reality as far as, like, like, what is actually valuable, what's important. And

[58:54] Matt: yeah, I guess it's one thing to, you know, have culture or society tell you that valuing a person based upon their looks is shallow, but it's another thing to learn that for yourself because looks are important on. In many different dimensions. But I'm sure we've all, you know, had a person in our life, a friend or a family member or a love, you know, romantic partner that was extremely attractive and yet had a deficit in some other place that made things very, very difficult. And so you kind of see that judging a book by its cover is shallow. It's like, you need to read. You need to read the interior to see what else is there. Doesn't mean that what you might consider shallow is not important. Just means that when taken alone, it's an insufficient marker for what you might be after.

[60:04] Michael: Yeah. I mean, so interesting. There's all these like little like, markers. Kind of like you said that like, if you meet somebody and they treat other people horribly.

[60:16] Matt: Yeah.

[60:17] Michael: It's like, well, who is this person? Like, what do you like? Okay, you're not, you're not treating me that way, but you're treating other people that way. It's like, what happens whenever I become. I switch, I. I jump. A category on you is like, do I become like that person that you're treating that way? Like, you go out on a date and your date is like treating the waiter really badly. It's like that tells you something about their inner. Their inner world that is conforming to a reality that's not. That sees this person as other, not as a. As an actual individual that is. Has value. And so I think that's something that as we act in the world, it's like. And we try to conform to that reality of, you know, you treat your waiter with respect. You know, you open a door for somebody that's not just about opening the door, but it says that that person values something about that other. Another person or pulls over for a flat tire or whatever it might be. It's starting to tell you something that's like, there's a deep. Something deeper here is motivating this person than just trying to get the likes. And I think that's. Actually, I got onto like singer, songwriter, Instagram today a little bit like, scroll. Cool. And I was just like, started noticing like, some of the stuff I like is all AI generated, like completely. One I wasn't for sure on, but just one lady had a really great voice and. But then it's just sort of like I can kind of respect it for. To one degree, but the. There's nothing behind it. It's like I can. I can kind of like understand it as sort of like, oh, look at that, that's there. But it's like there's not a story behind that person that I'm interacting with.

[62:19] Matt: Right.

[62:20] Michael: Because it is an AI agent or an AI generated person. And so it's like, it's very shallow. It's like. And so, you know, if we approach our relationships that way, where I'm just going to interact with the surface of that, it's like there's. There's not a lot of value underneath it.

[62:47] Matt: It's that concept of indexicality that we talked about. A couple of months ago. I mean, even to say that lady has a really great voice. What does that even mean of an AI Song? Because what does it mean for someone to have a good voice? Yeah, I mean, I would. Because what it certainly doesn't mean is they hit the right notes or they sing in tune. It certainly does not mean that. Some of the best singers of all time do not do that. I think what it means is something more like, I perceive something of that person's soul and the life that they've lived in, the way that they ex. They emote, the way that they push the notes out of them. I can feel the pain and the hope and the resilience and the heartbreak and the excitement of being alive.

[63:45] Michael: Yeah. Because it's connected to something.

[63:47] Matt: It's connected to a history. And an AI generated voice has none of that. It's just mimicking someone else who had that.

[63:55] Michael: Mm. Well, it's like, I just. I went to a cigar company called Roma, and. And it's just so interesting when you connect with the people who created it and the depth of, like, hearing their love and passion and desire. And it's like, it's not just about the cigars. It's about, you know, their story and how they got there. And it's like. It's like. It's so much more. It's like. It. It's like two individuals, but it also becomes more than just the two individuals. It's like they work with farmers in Nicaragua, and it's like. It's like it's building this thing that you can't manufacture. And I think that's the part that come back to commies. You can't. You can't create that. It's like it has to come from the individuals joining together in a way that's. That's free will. I don't know what the right word, but that's not mandatory. But what is it when you kind of commit to somebody? Or, like, it's like a marriage or something like that. Like, you, out of your free will, you. You kind of connect yourself with somebody else to create something. You know, it's like that's. That cannot be mandated from high. It's like you have to.

[65:16] Matt: To has to be an act of love.

[65:18] Michael: Have to? Yeah, an act of love or an act of, like, willing to. To connect yourself with somebody and. And create something together and that just can't be manufactured.

[65:31] Matt: Well, isn't it interesting that anytime we run across something good, you know, if. If you walked into a room and there was a cigar sitting on a table, and you smoked it and you liked it. It's a good cigar. You would wonder why that was a good cigar. And if I came to you and I said, let me tell you the story of that cigar, the reason it is the way that it is is because it started 100 years ago with this old man, Jacobs, and he started this farm, and he had this problem with his wife, and because of that, they had to sell off part of it. And I went through this whole story and the generations and the methods that they came up with for creating and rolling, drying the tobacco, doing all of the things. And I said, and the culmination of that is that cigar you just smoked. You would go, wow. And it would be. Your experience would be enriched. And everything's like this. This is why you go to wine tastings. You want to know the story, why is this good? Not just that it's good. We want to know why. It's the same reason you reread a book. A book is good. You've read it, you've gotten the goodness, right? It's like, no, I want to go on that journey again. I want to go with Frodo again so I can understand why. Why is it so good? And what's good, Anything that's good is good because of love. A piece of furniture that's well made is good because the person who made it loved it. A good cigar is good because the people who made it love it. And someone who loves something wants to talk about it and share about it. It's an act of worship. Essentially, all worship is really loving something in the natural response to really loving someone or something is to talk about it, to share it, to tell the story. It's why, when you meet a couple, one of the first questions you might ask them is, how did y' all meet? Tell me your story.

[68:05] Michael: Yeah, yeah. And. And then it's quite disappointing of like, oh, we just. We had to marry because. Because we were ordered to. And that's why we're together. It's like, well.

[68:23] Matt: Or we met online. It's like, well, that's a bummer of an answer. Not because meeting online is illegitimate, because that tells me nothing. If you say, we met at a bar, I can say, well, what bar? Oh, the wheel. Oh. You know, it tells me something about you, the two of you.

[68:42] Michael: Well, even if you say, like, I met online, you're like, okay, that doesn't tell me much. But. So why are you still with this person?

[68:48] Matt: Yeah. What happened when you met in person for the first time. Yeah, yeah.

[68:52] Michael: It's because it's like, okay, that was the catalyst. Or. But it's not. It's, you know, because you can see, well, all of our parameters matched up as far as, you know. And so I just thought that logically this would be the right person to marry and have kids with because our children. Genetics are good and. Exactly. It's like, okay, that's not really. Okay, great. You're really efficient in your. All your parameters that you want to meet and you're effective and good for you. It's like, that doesn't really make a great. A great story.

[69:35] Matt: Right. Well. And oddly enough, I mean, I think this is the problem with communism actually is like, we're just not smart enough to come up with all the parameters to design a good life. We aren't. That's why communism fails. It can't effectively set prices for markets, so the markets fail. We cannot set the parameters for our love life. If we try to, our love life fails. We have to be open to the things that would have been outside of our own definition for our own partner. Which is why so many people, you know, which is why you have a phrase like opposites attract. The relationships that end up working are the ones that weren't parameterized. They were more of. It was, you know, we have words like meet cute. You know, it was like two people who never should have been in the same place at the same time, who just have nothing in common but just happen to click, you know, and happen to love each other despite all the differences. I mean,

[70:40] Michael: it's funny because they're also like the saying, like, birds of a feather flock together. It's like it. But that's the part is you have to be able to open up all those things. Like, there's. There could be two similar people that find each other and like, oh, my gosh, we're so similar. And I love that.

[70:56] Matt: Yeah.

[70:56] Michael: You know, it's like. Or we're so different, but we still love each other. It's like you just can't. You can't legislate that. There's just. There's so many variables that you have to allow the. All these. All these variables to work themselves out.

[71:10] Matt: You can't define it ahead of time. Life is an adventure. Has to be lived that way.

[71:17] Michael: Yeah,

[71:24] Matt: I don't know what this conversation has been about.

[71:26] Michael: I don't know either. Well, honestly, I think I can kind of put this into like a. You and I have been kind of Circling around a lot of things over the last probably month or so. And I think that's kind of part of it is like, we're kind of trying to work out this. A lot of different ideas, like the. The upsurge in sort of, like, acceptance of communism, or they call it Social Democrat, but it's kind of hiding in the guise of communist ideas. And then there's this whole other thing, too, where, like, you and I are, like, you know, what is. What is our future hold? Like, what are we. What are we giving ourselves to? And, I mean, for me, like, my kids are leaving the house, and, you know, you know, I'm having a different relationship with my business and. And figuring out what is my next. I'm hitting 20 years with this, you know, and. And what does Medici look like in this next decade or, you know, century? You know, it's like. It's like there's just. There's some new things to kind of figure out, and you kind of have to go through that struggle of, okay, what. What is this? What does this mean to me now? And I know what it meant to me yesterday or the day before or five years ago. And for me, I just feel like I'm kind of having to sit with a lot of these things and kind of refigure out, like, what does it mean to me now? And so for me, this whole conversation kind of fits. That fits that category all together. It's like we're just kind of exploring things, trying to push on it and say, okay, what's meat on? What meat is on that bone? Okay, well, there's a morsel there. There's a morsel here.

[73:13] Matt: Can we get a meal out of this?

[73:15] Michael: Totally.

[73:16] Matt: My answer to the question was less insightful. Oh, really? I was going to say this has just been philosophical Seinfeld.

[73:24] Michael: That's awesome. Philosophical Seinfeld. I don't know if I know what that means.

[73:30] Matt: Seinfeld was a show about nothing.

[73:31] Michael: Oh, gotcha.

[73:34] Matt: We're just kind of philosophizing all over the place.

[73:37] Michael: Well, in my brain, that's kind of. Whenever I'm in a place where I don't know where I'm going or what I'm. I do just kind of, like, I push against a lot of different areas, and. And then I stumble, and I'm like, okay, I'm stumbling over here. Okay, let me push over here. And I kind of stumble over there. I'm like, okay. And then I feel like eventually, like, I start to see, like, oh, there's some sort of commonality between the different areas that I'm stumbling in that start to kind of coalesce into something that makes sense. And I definitely feel that way right now in a lot of areas where I'm kind of, like, I'm kind of pushing on things and I get tired and I kind of go over and push on something else. Yeah. So I feel like our listeners are getting to experience that with me right now.

[74:29] Matt: Thanks for coming on this stumbling journey with us.

[74:31] Michael: Stumbling journey. All right.

[74:34] Matt: Hope you got something out of it.

[74:35] Michael: Me, too. We love you guys.

[74:37] Matt: If not, come back next week.

[74:38] Michael: Yeah, exactly. All right.

[74:41] Matt: Well, cheers, brother.

[74:42] Michael: Cheers.

[74:43] Matt: Love exploring with you?

[74:44] Michael: No, always.

[74:56] Matt: Sam.