Fix Your Eyes (Or the Algorithm Will)

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Do you have a kickstand on your phone case?

[0:23] Michael: I do. I just got a new phone case.

[0:25] Matt: What are you, a soccer mom?

[0:27] Michael: It's actually pretty awesome.

[0:28] Matt: Yeah. That's funny.

[0:31] Michael: I really was like, I was looking for a new. And I was like, I saw this and I like the case. And I was like. And then it had a kickstand, so I was like. I was like, all right, I'll do that. So it wasn't like I was looking for it, but it was more of like it was there. And I was like, okay, I can handle it.

[0:45] Matt: And it's improving your life.

[0:46] Michael: It is. Okay, good. Because it's like I'm leaning against something and it's like, why not just use a kickstand?

[0:54] Matt: Well, maybe we'll talk a little bit about. About phones tonight, but let's. Let's go there. Shores.

[1:02] Michael: Yeah, to the shores.

[1:04] Matt: Cheers.

[1:06] Michael: I will have to say I'm excited for after this podcast to have the cigar. Yeah, it's kind of Matt and I's new thing. New thing where we're having cigars after the podcast.

[1:16] Matt: I feel like we ought to start tonight by giving a cheers for Glenn Hansard.

[1:23] Michael: Oh, yeah. To Glenn.

[1:24] Matt: To Glenn.

[1:25] Michael: Yeah. To good friend.

[1:29] Matt: For anyone who maybe hasn't heard the news, Glenn Hansard passed away this morning in a motorcycle accident at the age of 56. And, man, it kind of hit me hard.

[1:40] Michael: Oh, really?

[1:40] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

[1:42] Michael: How so? What do you mean?

[1:44] Matt: I think I've just been really affected by his music and his contributions to the world over the years. He's touched my heart, he's moved me.

[1:50] Michael: Especially the movie that once.

[1:52] Matt: Yeah, once.

[1:53] Michael: Phenomenal.

[1:54] Matt: And there's another. It's harder to find. There's another documentary called the Swell Season, which is about. So he and Marquetta after the. The movie. Once started this band called the Swell Season and made a lot of music. And there was a. I think it's all in black and white, this documentary about the two of them going on tour. And there's like some really touching interviews with Glenn's parents in that and some. A lot of touching footage of. Of Glenn and Marquetta. And. Yeah, I just find it strange. Like there's been a few people in my life, mostly musicians, who, when they've passed, it hit me really hard because it's a strange thing that happens. We've talked about this before, and when it comes to things like books and podcasts, you spend A lot of time with somebody, even if you've never met them, you really do develop something of a real relationship with that person, however one sided it may kind of feel. And I would actually argue that it's not one sided, but, um, because they're speaking into your life, you know, you are receiving from that. And there's sort of a conversational element to it. And I saw Glen and Marketa perform a couple of times. I saw Glen perform with his band, the Frames, long ago. And, yeah, he just had an effect on me, so to have that extinguished. And I think he will live on in many ways through his recorded music for a long time. But it does feel. It feels like someone, you know, passing away. So that's very, very strange. Very interesting. But I feel really grateful for Glenn's heart that he shared with the world and the way that he. Man, the way that he gave his passion to all of us. That was one thing that I loved about seeing him live, is he was a passionate performer. Totally just gave it. He bared his soul. You know, you hear it in his voice. So I. I'm. I'm sad that that's no longer in the world.

[3:59] Michael: Yeah, I saw him perform with Eddie Vedder, so I was there actually to see Eddie Veteran and didn't really realize he was going to be there also. And. And he was 10 times better than Eddie Ver for that very reason. It's like he was kind of. He was still burying his soul at that time.

[4:14] Matt: Yeah.

[4:15] Michael: And Eddie Vedders just seemed like this performative and I was just like, oh, we left, honestly, during.

[4:21] Matt: Yeah.

[4:21] Michael: And he's the one. He's the one musician I've wanted to see my entire life.

[4:25] Matt: Eddie Vedder.

[4:26] Michael: Eddie Vedder. Yeah. And I left.

[4:28] Matt: This is crazy.

[4:29] Michael: Yeah.

[4:31] Matt: One of the times I saw Glenn perform, it was actually probably about 10 years ago, is at Stubbs Barbecue here in Austin. And towards the end of the concert, he went into sort of teaching the crowd these Irish drinking songs. And so they would perform it and he would do this call and response and it was so fun.

[4:51] Michael: That's cool.

[4:51] Matt: It was so fun. Yeah. He also had this thing where I think almost every time I saw him, he would do this. He would. If he had a band, he would play a song or two solo with his acoustic guitar, and he would step out in front of the microphone and unplug his guitar. So it was just the acoustic sound of his vocals and his guitar, and it had this effect because he had pretty, fairly large crowds and had this effect where Everybody has to kind of listen and lean in and get engaged. And with Glen, there was so much to engage with because he was so emotive and evocative in the way that he gave his music and his words and lyrics to the world.

[5:35] Michael: Yeah, he was almost more of like a spoken word poet because that's how I feel. Like that's how I experienced him was like, he's more of a. He's telling you a story along with it. Then he goes into song and then.

[5:44] Matt: Yeah.

[5:45] Michael: Comes out. He's like telling you stuff and I don't know. That is cool. I mean, it is kind of like watching once. It's just, you know, it's a music almost a long music video almost, but in its story form, which is kind of cool.

[5:58] Matt: I watched once, fairly recently again, and it still is a powerful, powerful movie.

[6:05] Michael: Totally. I just thinking about it, I was just like. I always think of, like, things I want my kids to watch, like movies from the past. And they're always interested in it or some. Most time they're interested in it.

[6:14] Matt: Yeah.

[6:15] Michael: And any. That's one I'd like to do for sure.

[6:17] Matt: Yeah. Cheers to Glenn.

[6:20] Michael: What was the other documentary you just said?

[6:22] Matt: The Swell Season.

[6:23] Michael: The Swell Season.

[6:23] Matt: Okay, so I'll find. I'll see if I can find a link to it and put it in the show notes. The last time I wanted to watch it, I think I had to get my dad to illegally download it and put it on his plex so I could stream it. I don't know if it's available anywhere.

[6:38] Michael: That's funny.

[6:40] Matt: So, yeah, it's also just a reminder, I think, you know, he was only 56 and he was very much alive and was on tour as far as I can understand, and still making music. And we don't know how much time we have in this world. You know, it's like, yeah, we're all. It's gonna happen to all of us.

[7:04] Michael: Comes for all of us.

[7:05] Matt: Comes for all of us.

[7:06] Michael: Well, also, I'm kind of fascinating just in your. Like how you said that you feel like you had a relationship with him. Because I come in my head, it's like, I'm like, well, not really.

[7:16] Matt: No. Right.

[7:17] Michael: But it's like. But, but what is that? Because it's. It's. It's as if you do. I mean, like, even I can think of, like growing up and watching Michael Jordan play or Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, you know, it's like I didn't have a relationship with them, but still they had A huge impact on my life. Yeah. Whether it's, you know, watching the, you know, come fly with me or, you know, just the different things that were just like. It's like they spoke into my life and I was receiving it as if it was from them.

[7:44] Matt: Right, right. I mean, I guess it bears the question of like, well, what is a relationship? Exactly. You know, Exactly. Very Jordan Peterson.

[7:56] Michael: Yeah,

[7:59] Matt: my, my toddler has taken to saying, instead of saying yes, she says, but she goes, and it sounds very much like Jordan Peterson. I love it.

[8:08] Michael: That's hilarious.

[8:13] Matt: I don't know, let's see if we can suss that out a little bit. I, you know, When somebody has an impact on you, what exactly does that mean? You know, it isn't just that they provoke thoughts, it's that they change you in some way.

[8:32] Michael: Yeah.

[8:33] Matt: You know, you watch Larry Bird or Michael Jackson and the next time you're out shooting hoops, you're thinking about them and you're changing the way that you move. And you know, for me, I think with a musician, a good musician changes the way I think about music and the way I think about my relationship to it. And I play differently because of that. And it's not necessarily conscious or on purpose. It's just that we are molded by the relationships that we have. And I would say that that does run two ways in a maybe non obvious way, but it's like we're changing them too. And it's sort of a royal we because in the cases that we're talking about, we're talking about famous people, but they are receiving feedb. I mean, in a sense, Glenn's music was shaped by his audiences and I'm a member of his audience. And so there is a two way relationship there. I mean, not to mention, you know, I don't know who could say whether this happens or not, but it's like if I'm listening to Glenn or any other musician that really has touched me in my life, whether it's Billy Crockett or Tom Petty or Pierce Pettis, these people that have affected me and shaped the way that I play and perform music and shaped the music that I write as I put that back out into the world, that is a product of my relationship with those people. And feasibly they could run into that music and form their own relationship with that. And that does sort of close that loop in a very real way, I think.

[10:10] Michael: I like how you said that is, is like you have a relationship with him and he has a relationship with we and I Think that's. There's something really interesting about that because it's not. You're part of the we. You're not an I in that situation. However, you're approaching him as an I to an I. Where he's approaching it from I to a we. Yeah, I think that's really fascinating because I think if you really see it, I mean it's the same thing with like Medici. For me, you know, it's like. It's like other people have a relationship with Medici, you know, but like Medici has a relationship with all these other people. It's sort of like a. Sort of a Same sort of I we type thing. It's like if you don't pay attention and understand that, that no, you have a relationship with these people even though you don't know their names or maybe you don't know a lot about them. It's like. And you have something. You have a responsibility in that relationship. And I think that's. You can. I think you can see there's some really good. There's this one guy. Oh, shoot. I think it's Fanu. This one golfer, Fowler, he's like so good with his. He's kind of a upper tier, mid tier PGA golfer, but he just really engages with the crowd, you know, in a way that's just sort of like really heartfelt and people feel like he's with them. You know, you have like Justin Shambo who's like really boisterous and everyone gets excited and it's like. It's like he is interacting with a we, but you feel like you're interacting with him. So it's really fascinating.

[11:43] Matt: Well, and that we isn't the crowd, the audience, it isn't non individualistic, it isn't sort of nameless. It does emerge into one on one relationships all the time in all kinds of ways. So Ryan Adams is one of my favorite musicians, favorite writers, songwriters, and I got to meet him one day. I just was. I'd gone to his concert and it was either that night or the next night. I just saw him on the street and went up to him and had a conversation with him. And it was a. I could tell it was a touching conversation both ways. Even though we had never met before, that did not mean that there was not context for our conversation. And it wasn't exactly like fan talking to artist. It felt very personal. And I have had that kind of interaction in the opposite direction. Me being the person that was known and not knowing the other person individually. But I'm thinking of one interaction specifically that I had many years ago, and I wrote about this on my substack in a piece called We All Carry Parts of each Other's Story. I met this guy, and he shared with me something that was meaningful to him about interacting with my music. And I was really humbled by it, in a sense, because I realized that, I think, especially at that time, I was younger, and I was thinking about myself as an artist, as sort of naively thinking that if I put something valuable out into the world, I will perceive that value. I'll perceive it in the numbers. Right. Sales, concert attendance, likes, subscribes, all of these things. Right. And I walked away from that, and I thought, oh, you idiot, you've had that totally wrong. That's the very nature of art, is that you're not going to perceive its value. Even if you think you perceive it, that's not the way other people are going to value it. Yeah, they have their relationship with this thing, this song in that case, and in the same way that you do, but that's their own relationship. And you're a part of that. You're a steward of that, but in a sense, it isn't exactly yours.

[14:14] Michael: Gotcha. Yeah.

[14:15] Matt: So be respectful of the fact that you have a relationship with a lot of people that you don't know, and you're not going to be able to perceive that value except basically through the revelation of God in some sense. And I really do mean it that way, because I think, like, when we have the. The courage to reveal something true and good in us, I do think that that is something like a revelation from God. When you have the courage to walk up to somebody and tell them what they actually mean to you, or when you have the. The courage to receive that and to have your eyes open to something that you didn't see before.

[14:58] Michael: Totally. Yeah. I love that. It's like so many, especially with our Guad store, like, a lot of people who've come through there as students, and then they're like, oh, I used to study there all the time and make my friends there. And it's like you just facilitated something that's way bigger than you and you're a part of that story, and maybe someone's listening to your music in the car and going through a tough time or something like that.

[15:25] Matt: That's. That's another great way to look at it. It's like you haven't met all of your customers, but your customers have a relationship with you in the sense that Medici is a. An extension of you, an extension of your heart, of your vision, of your care, of your blood, sweat and tears. I mean, interact, having a relationship with all that. What's more relational, More. More relational than that? The fact that they haven't all yet had the opportunity to sit down with you and tell you what that has meant in their lives or to have a conversation and get to know some part of you that isn't necessarily accessible through that medium doesn't diminish the relationship, I don't think.

[16:08] Michael: Which is kind of interesting when you think about keeping a modern culture and like, even influencers, like, I would say, like, there's some people in that sort of category that I spend more time with, you know, in a sense. And other times it's just passing through and there's not any sort of meaningful relationship. It's just filling a gap, you know, And I don't know, because in the way that we're talking, I was just kind of trying to think of like, well, what's this new sort of like, you know, scrolling through Instagram reels and is this the same thing as sitting with a record for an hour and a half or, you know, because you'd have to listen through a whole tape or a whole record if you could. You don't just, like. You just don't fly through stuff like you used to.

[16:56] Matt: Well, here's. Here's something I've been thinking about the last couple of weeks. I think you have your deepest relationship with that to which you have your eyes fixed. And there's this wonderful example of this in the. In the Bible and in the Old Testament, Moses, the Israelites are out in the desert. They've, you know, fled or been rescued from the slavery from the Egyptians. And they're in the desert, not yet in the promised land, and they're having a hell of a time. And at one point, all these snakes come out of the desert and they're biting them and people are dying, and it's terrible. And they come to Moses and they're like, can't you go talk to God about this? And Moses goes up, I guess what, Mount Sinai talks to God. God says, correct me if I'm getting this, you know, wrong. God says, basically, make a. Like a brass or metal serpent and put it up on the top of the pole of a pole and lift it up and tell the people to come and look at it. And the people who look at it will no longer be bitten by the snakes. And you read that and you kind of think, the hell is that what Is that about. And I think the sort of one lesson is, if you can become resilient to something by engaging with it, then it no longer is a problem for you. Something like that. But then Jesus, when he comes and he's talking to Nicodemus, he says, just as Moses lifted the serpent up on the pole, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. And what he's talking about is his own crucifixion. And I think that the thing I take from that is, why would the Son of Man need to be lifted up, especially in death? And I think an answer is, so that you may fix your eyes on him. And isn't that what Jesus says to Peter when Peter is walking out on the water to him and is starting to sink? Says, look at me. We have this very odd kind of relationship with our God, I think, because, well, he doesn't speak to us in the way that we might normally think that a person. We have a relationship speaks to us. But fundamentally, I think he says, fix your eyes on me. But we live in an age in which I think it's a valid question to ask, where are my eyes fixed? What is it that I'm spending time looking at? And maybe an answer to that is something like this. Instagram scroll culture. If you're just scrolling on Instagram for an hour, what is it that you have your eyes fixed on? You know, I don't know, the algorithm, Random content, some of it funny, some of it spiritual, some of it philosophical, some of it gory and graphic, some of it pornographic. It's like, what is it that my eyes are fixed on? And then sometimes you might notice that the algorithm is, like, really reading you, and you're like, I'm like, apparently really into surfing, because I just. All my videos are surfing. So you might say, my eyes are fixed on surfing.

[20:18] Michael: It almost tells you what your eyes are fixing. Still anonymous, which is fascinating. Yeah.

[20:24] Matt: You know, but. Isn't that interesting if. If you want to have a relationship with God, fix your eyes on him? It's not that surprising. It's like, if you want to have a relationship with anyone, you want to have a relationship with your children, pay attention. You know, you want to have a relationship with a. With a woman, you need to pay attention. Go to where she is.

[20:49] Michael: What?

[20:49] Matt: Look her in the eyes, you know?

[20:53] Michael: Yeah.

[20:56] Matt: And maybe that is another sort of pathway into this idea that we have a relationship with people that we've never met. Because to your point, if you sit down and listen to a record for an hour and a half. What is it that you're engaging with exactly? It isn't just music. As if you can put the word just in front of music and have that mean anything, because music's obviously very deep, very rich. But when you're listening to, you know, a singer, songwriter, Jackson Brown, let's say I love listening to Jackson Brown on vinyl.

[21:32] Michael: I already know who that is.

[21:33] Matt: You don't. Okay, I'll have to check it out. What is it exactly that you're. You're communing with? It isn't just the sound waves. You're communing with everything. All of the lived experience that went into the composition of those songs, all of the hopes and disappointments, all of the heartbreaks and falling in loves and all of the things that motivated him and his heart to do the thing that he did and then to record it. And you're communing with all of that. And that's super relational.

[22:10] Michael: Well, it's kind of interesting because, like, it doesn't. The. The scrolling thing doesn't really invite depth because, like, I. I remember, like, when I got the smashing pumpkins dual CD in the 90s.

[22:22] Matt: Yeah.

[22:23] Michael: Like, listening to the whole thing, and then I'd go in and read everything that's in the actual CD just because they. They talk about it in the booklet that's in there. Yeah. And it's like, I wanted to know more.

[22:31] Matt: Right.

[22:32] Michael: And there wasn't a lot of places you had to go buy a magazine or something like that to, like, Spin magazine or something like that and read the article, like, oh, it came out Rolling Stones. And I go get the Rolling Stones and read about. I was like. There was sort of like, I was engaged with something.

[22:47] Matt: We talked about this a couple weeks ago. It's like, you want to know the story.

[22:50] Michael: Yeah.

[22:51] Matt: You want to know the story of the thing and the p. And the. The story of the people who brought it to be.

[22:58] Michael: Yeah. It's like Michael Jordan. It's like the. I want to hear, like, oh, in high school, like, that happened to him and. And how. How much does he work? He's there. He's the first one there and last one to leave. And. And how he treated his teammates and inspired his teammates to be even better than what they were. And. And you just, like. It just makes you want to, like. And then just how inspiring it is. It's like, you know, whether you're reading, like, Doshi Osky or, you know, even Lord of the Rings, it's like, you want to, like, you want to understand the character, how they think and how they see and. And it kind of opens up a whole other. It kind of comes through kind of what we're talking about is that relationship. But at the same time, I kind of want to, like, there is a difference between that kind of relationship and, like, our relationship.

[23:46] Matt: Yeah.

[23:47] Michael: And because there's also a certain part that you can kind of hide in these fictitious relationships, no matter how real they are. There's something different from the. The problematic aspect of having a relationship that talks back to you. You know, like, michael, quit farting. You know, whatever it might be. You know, it's like, like, oh, man, Smashing Pumpkin's never said that to me. So I think there is something that. I mean, it's almost like we're kind of like 3 degrees removed. It's sort of like you have that relationship with human to human, and it's kind of like you're dealing with the messiness of it, and then you have this relationship kind of once removed, and then there's sort of like this sort of scrolling relationship. It's not that they can't be impacted because I've scrolled and certain things have really impacted me. Like, you know, item number 39 really sticks out to me. You know,

[25:04] Matt: there's, there's, there's something there I think you're right on about. Because. Social media, as odd as it sounds, is not very social. Like, it doesn't really talk back the way most of us engage in it. We're. We're mostly passive consumers. And so we're being affected by something that cannot perceive our. Our responses, whether those are just sort of visual cues, indications of love or disgust. And it doesn't talk back to us. I mean, you, you hear people, I think, talk a lot about how one of the problems with social media is you're getting a curated set of the best parts of the best people's lives. And so there's this comparison problem. You spend a little bit of time on Instagram and you're like, apparently everybody else can afford to go to Bali. What the hell? What's wrong with me? And so you're cajoled into this position of comparing the worst parts of yourself to the best parts of everyone else. And that's really bad. But the other really bad thing is, to your point, it doesn't talk back. And because it isn't exactly art, it's not super intentional. Maybe it's intentional in order to suck your attention rather than to speak something to you. And that's not one Hundred percent across the board, but seems somewhat dangerous to me. This is like maybe a couple weeks or a month ago, and I may have said it before, but there was one day I was on Instagram and I just had this thought that I was like, I don't think we're biologically wired to look at this many people that we never will or have met. Just these hundreds, thousands of people that were getting this intimate, high resolution visual window into their lives. I was like, this can't be good. Maybe it goes back to, what is it that you fix your eyes on? If you fix your eyes on a hundred thousand gorgeous people that you're never going to meet, what good is that to you? It's like, wouldn't that time have been spent better fixing your eyes on the people in your own home or the people in your own neighborhood or the people at your coffee shop? I mean, go sit and people watch. That seems like that would be much more valuable for you and everyone else.

[27:38] Michael: Go sit and people watch. Watch their phones.

[27:41] Matt: Watch people. Yeah, people watch phones.

[27:48] Michael: No, that's the greatest thing. When I was at Metro in the 90s, late 90s is it was so big, you could just sit at your table and look around and just see all these people in conversation playing, probably

[27:59] Matt: with their heads up, looking around.

[28:02] Michael: Yeah. It was even before really computers were like a thing in Internet, in cafes and stuff. And you know, you, you would get into conversations. Like it was sort of like it was pretty easy for the most part. Yes. You were open to it because your, your, your attention wasn't, you know, consumed.

[28:20] Matt: Yeah.

[28:21] Michael: And you had to kind of look around to, what am I doing here? Why am I here? I'm here to read a book, so I'm not going to.

[28:27] Matt: Oh, that's so interesting. Your attention wasn't consumed, which is to say that attention can be consumed. We all know that's true. So if that's the case, if my attention can be consumed, I should be careful where I put it. Which is back to the idea of like, what are you fixing your eyes on? I need to be careful where I put it because it will be consumed if I let it. And if it's being consumed by Instagram, that's probably not a great thing. If it's being consumed by a good book, that might be a better thing. If it's being consumed by my family, that might even be a better thing.

[29:06] Michael: Yeah, it definitely seems like there's like time preferences for these different things. Like you're saying my time being consumed by a Book is good, but then if all your time is being consumed by a book, then it can be bad. Maybe your family or. It's like, really the ultimate part is if your attention's on God, that's never not good, I guess. Sort of like the highest sort of like.

[29:30] Matt: Right.

[29:32] Michael: If you're gonna fail at something, fail at putting your attention towards God. Because, like, you know, you can be overly consumed with your family, and that's. That can be unhealthy.

[29:40] Matt: Yeah.

[29:41] Michael: So everything has its place for the most part.

[29:43] Matt: I remember, and we've been, before the podcast tonight, talking a lot about just this extraordinary time that you and I have lived through. And it's mostly, I think, millennials and Gen Xers that we have lived through this great transition into the information age. And when you think about it, the number of things that have transformed so drastically that I think there's a lot of young people that would not even understand some of the concepts that we were very familiar with from our childhood. Like, you and I were talking about writing checks. Like, when I was a kid, you would go with your mom to the grocery store, and 100% of the people who were going through were writing checks. You know, it was rarely somebody paid with cash. People didn't carry that much cash, so they wrote checks. And so it was like, they get out their checkbook. You know, who do I make it out to? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not sure that my children would know what a check is or even how to fill one out. Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would totally remember how to fill one out. You know, you got to remember how to properly spell it because you had to write out the numbers as words. Totally.

[30:54] Michael: We have to teach our studies early. We have to teach our employees how to write that, because we still have some of those. Yeah.

[31:00] Matt: Well, I guess my point, all of that to set the table for. When I was in college, the transition to using computers was just happening. And at some point when I was in college, and I think it was my senior year, I had my own laptop, and the college had turned on WI fi in the classrooms because it was new. It just didn't exist, really. Before that, people had personal computers, but generally, if you wanted to have Internet access, which, by the way, I remember when we had personal computers that didn't have Internet access because the Internet didn't exist. So it's like, what did you even use the computer for? I mean, a computer's completely word processing maimed without the Internet. Right. But anyway, I think my senior year, I started taking my laptop to class and taking notes on it. And I remember specifically marking, noting to myself that I was learning way less because I had a computer in front of me that was connected to the Internet. And so if the teacher said something about something that was interesting, I would, oh, let me Google that real quick. And then, oh, go down this path and this path and this path, and all of a sudden, Yahoo it. Yahoo it. Yeah, and send a hotmail to someone and maybe get on AOL Instant Messenger. But I remember noticing, like, oh, I'm spacing out. I'm not getting everything from this lecture that I could if I didn't have this computer or I got distracted and started playing a video game or whatever. And I remember thinking, this is bad. But I also felt like, yeah, but I don't want to stop doing it. And now think about the fact that that's our entire educational system from, you know, at. At minimum, middle school probably into elementary school. This is the primary medium for education.

[32:52] Michael: Yeah, it is pretty wild. Like, all the things. Yeah, I kind of wonder, like, I actually had a conversation about this today, and I just. I came to so many different, different dead ends on this conversation just because, like, I don't see three to five years from now. Like, I kind of prided myself up until the last five years to be able to see at least three to five years into the future.

[33:17] Matt: It's like I have a feel for what things, where things will go.

[33:20] Michael: Totally. And I just don't.

[33:22] Matt: Yeah.

[33:22] Michael: I mean, and that's sort of unsettling for me because, you know, I see sort of like, you know, with all these. A lot of these businesses and people sort of vying for attention, and it just all seems the same and it's probably novelty still to quite a few people, but I don't feel like everyone just. There's so much competition for such a small bandwidth that people have. And, like, is that really worth a business's time to spend on trying to grab that little attention that they might be able to get? Because we always hear the success stories of viral videos and that kind of stuff, but that's such a small percentage. And I've been seeing more videos online about content makers talking to other content makers and like, you know, can you make it in this business? And basically, like, you know, I think it's like 1% or the top 5%. I don't know the exact percentages. You might be able to make a thousand dollars a month. And it's like. And Then just. I mean, it just drastically.

[34:30] Matt: The tail of that long tail is so long now. Yeah.

[34:33] Michael: And it becomes. I mean, but the. The short tail of it. It's like, you know, people are like, yeah. And that's what you hear. You're like, oh, it must be so easy. And it's like, it's really. It's really not like. So I think that's the fascinating thing is, like, what's. Especially as an artist, you know, how do you. How do you. What.

[34:50] Matt: What.

[34:50] Michael: What is your. What are you doing? And is it for the attention? Is it for the followers? Is it for. So you kind of get into the. Kind of going back to the roots of like, why am I doing this? And because it seems like a lot of these things have kind of like. Like we're trying to grab people's attentions and we're forgetting, like, the why. You know.

[35:20] Matt: Yeah, there's a. There's a presumption that gathering enough eyeballs has value in and of itself, even if you don't know what to do once the eyeballs are looking at you. I mean, there's a lot of examples of this in business. Netflix and Spotify are two great examples. I don't know if this has changed now, but at least earlier on, when they were. What would seem to you, like massively adopted huge platforms, both were in the. In the red, not making money. And the idea was, well, it doesn't matter that we're not making money because we have all of these people signed up, so all we have to do is figure out what they'll give us money for. So the why wasn't exactly there. Yeah, but there's some tolerance for the risk of not having the why so long as people keep coming. And I think people think about that in their own social media lives. Like, if I just build up enough followers, I'll be able to do something with it.

[36:30] Michael: The kind of us for shores of ignorance. We're just building up all those followers.

[36:34] Matt: Yeah, Yeah.

[36:37] Michael: I don't. I think. I mean, it really is. And then, you know, it's like, let's say you do get the. That notoriety. And it's like. It's like, well, why. Why are you doing this? I think that's. It's such a. The part of the conversation of this I've been kind of working through in the last two weeks, but I think it's actually been longer than that. But more my eyes have been open to it is just that I feel like my why needs to be upgraded, you know, My why is kind of 2 years old, and it's not. It's not good enough for today. And I feel like there's something about that, you know, your why, you know, and I would have to say, like, it was like, in survival mode for 2020-2023. Like, it was. There was. There was no why.

[37:21] Matt: It was don't die.

[37:22] Michael: Don't die. Exactly. Yeah. And. And that might have been sufficient for a time. Like you're, you know, in time of war, it's like, you're just like, I'm going to survive. And you're back to like, food, shelter, water, you know, just your. Really. But at some point, you know, you kind of have to have something bigger to go go after and. And set your eyes towards, you know.

[37:53] Matt: Yeah. I don't think don't die is sufficient because I was listening to somebody lay out this example. They said, imagine you. You run across somebody you're talking to, and they have a bottle of iodine and they're planning to drink it. And you don't want them to drink it because obviously it's poison and it's going to kill them.

[38:17] Michael: Iodine.

[38:18] Matt: Iodine. This is the story I heard.

[38:22] Michael: Okay.

[38:22] Matt: I actually didn't look up iodine. I assume it'll kill you.

[38:26] Michael: Yeah.

[38:26] Matt: Let's pretend it'll kill you.

[38:28] Michael: Yeah.

[38:28] Matt: Makes a good story. He said you actually have to convince them of two things. One, you have to convince them that it's poisonous. But then if you convince them that it's poisonous and they say, yep, I see your point of view. I agree with you. I agree that it's poisonous, and they put it up to their lips and start drinking it, and you're like, oh, well, I failed to make the case that living is worthwhile and dying is not. So it's like, don't die. Well, it can be effective, but it's not ultimately effective because it may be the case that, well, I can't see a better, better alternative.

[39:03] Michael: It's more like, why do I want to live?

[39:05] Matt: Yeah, why do I want to live? Don't die might be effective in the short term, but it's actually not even going to keep you from death. You have to want to live to. To avoid death.

[39:16] Michael: You know, part of.

[39:17] Matt: Otherwise death starts to look pretty good.

[39:18] Michael: Yeah. Part of don't die is there's. Underneath that is the will to live. But it's not. It's not priority, you know, because if you're trying not to die, they're obviously saying something about living has value, but you're not really aimed at anything. It's more of like a negative response rather than a positive response. Sort of like, oh, what are you going to move forward to? It's like so like, I mean, even like drug addicts, alcoholics, whatever. What do you call it? Device. Whatever negative thing you have in your life, it's not. It's not a matter of just not doing it. It's like you actually need to replace it with something because it's. It's like, you know, it's sort of. It produces a vacuum. It's like, okay, you know, I'm not going to, I don't know, a bad example. It's like, not go the strip club tonight. It's like, okay, what are you going to do? You know, it's like, because, like, just not going is not sufficient enough. It's like, it's like, okay, well, what

[40:21] Matt: do you have to have something to do instead?

[40:22] Michael: Yeah, what am I gonna put my attention to? Yeah, because otherwise I've never been to strip cosa. Well, actually, when I was 18, I went once. It was horrible. It was gross. So gross.

[40:34] Matt: We don't need to get into those.

[40:36] Michael: I just want to make sure I was being honest. Yeah.

[40:44] Matt: Yeah. I mean, cessation doesn't point your gaze at something else. It actually keeps your gaze on the thing even though you're not doing it. Which is why quitting a bad habit is so hard. Because the second you say, I'm not going to have another cigarette, the only thing you can think about is having a cigarette. So it's like your attention is more fixated on it. And so you need something to replace it. You need to say, instead of smoking, I'm going to do this. Or instead of drinking, I'm going to do this. Or instead of going to the strip club, I'm going to do this. These things that to me seem better. Yeah, right. And then you have a positive reason to. To do that. Like, I'm doing something that legitimately seems better to me.

[41:26] Michael: Yeah.

[41:26] Matt: That doesn't mean it's not going to be hard to some degree. But you've successfully fixed your eyes at a different point, a different target.

[41:33] Michael: Yeah. I've met quite a few guys that squatch that were kind of like they kind of quit drinking and stuff. And. But they've. And they replaced it with working out and taking care of themselves, like for their food, you know, going through that whole part. And so it's interesting.

[41:46] Matt: And.

[41:47] Michael: And I think it helps them to be very successful in that too. And it's just kind of cool to hear a lot of the stories of different people and how just that environment actually encourages a healthier lifestyle for them than what they were a part of before. You know, I mean, it's. The thing with coffee shops for me was just like, I was in a bad place. And, you know, I would go to coffee shops just so I wasn't. Or I'd go for a bike ride because, you know, not to do drugs and not to, you know, get caught up in my own head about stuff. It's like I had to go out and be with people. And by just not doing something, it's like, totally. It almost makes me think of, like, the idea of legions, like, where it talks about, like, a spirit leaves a person and then it comes back with, like, 10 others because it's like there's nothing to replace it. And they came in. Jesus tells the story about this. I forget what the particulars are on it, but. But, but nature abhors a vacuum.

[42:44] Matt: Interesting.

[42:45] Michael: Yeah.

[42:46] Matt: I mean, it doesn't even have to be negative, addictive things like. Like when I fast, I notice I have to give myself things to do because otherwise there's this vacuum that can feel unbearable, especially after a couple of days. So it's like, okay, you got this time that you always spend preparing meals and cleaning up and all of this, and now you've got all this time, what are you going to do? Sit around and think about how you're hungry? And it's like, how about go for a walk? How about go for a swim?

[43:15] Michael: How about journal or whatever?

[43:17] Matt: Journal, you know, take your book, go sit in the park and read it, you know, and all of a sudden your perception is opened up to new things, new opportunities, new ways of looking at the world, which I think maybe is one of the reasons why fasting is so encouraged, you know, especially in. By Jesus in the New Testament. There's a. There's a point there, and I'm kind of blanking on the reference,

[43:57] Michael: but I

[43:57] Matt: think it has something to do with presence and the antidote to anxiety and worry, which is that, you know, Jesus says, don't be concerned about what you're going to wear and what you're going to eat. Tomorrow has enough problems of its own. Essentially, it's kind of like this be here now idea. What does that mean? I think what it means is, and I think there's a verse that backs this up. It's like, lift your eyes up. Pay attention to what. What is here. Pay attention to this. Moment, pay attention and you will discover, I think ultimately, God, but along the way, the solution to all the problems, that when you were fixated only on the problem, you couldn't really see any solutions other than the predetermined ones that you would have applied to it had you had those resources, but you clearly don't. So maybe you need to look in places you didn't think to look. And maybe the way to do that is to look in places you, you know, to engineer in some sense the conditions for seeing what you wouldn't otherwise see. You know, replace something. Maybe this is why sacrifice is so important. Replace something in your life, put a vacuum in your life. Don't eat a meal, you know, change a habit, take a break from this or that. Take one day and say, I'm not going to pick my phone up unless it's rings and I'm gonna have all notification silence. You'll see things you wouldn't have thought to look for. And speaking of phones, a trick that I have learned is somewhat helpful is I feel like I'm spending too much time on my phone. If you go into accessibility, you can put it into grayscale mode so there's no color on your phone. And it basically sucks all the joy out of that device.

[45:47] Michael: It's pretty bizarre.

[45:48] Matt: It makes it into this very bland monoscape. And you look at it and you're like, this isn't interesting at all. Put it down.

[45:56] Michael: That's funny.

[45:57] Matt: Yeah.

[46:00] Michael: What's interesting? Like the whole, like, you know, fix your, what do you fix your attention to? Like there's such a, a valuable thing. Because I think that's something also, because you can sometimes replace certain habits with new habits, but then they also become death to you also, you know, whether it's like, like eating healthy and eating right is a good thing, but also then can become its own God and control you. And then you're almost in that same slavery that you were before with coke or weed or whatever it might have been that you were the negative part.

[46:36] Matt: I'm a slave to the keto diet.

[46:38] Michael: Well, it's funny because it really is. It's not that those things are bad, it's just that you really. I think that's the thing. That's what some. It starts to teach you something about how important that whatever you fix your attention to has to be able to sustain it in a way that's healthy long term. And there's, there's, I think, you know, number one, is like God is the only thing that you can really. That really can sustain you long term if you focus your attention there. Everything else is sort of like, it has good qualities to it, but it's not. It's not sufficient to.

[47:15] Matt: Maybe that's why Jesus said to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, because you have to have some nimbleness. Right. You might come up with a solution that's really helpful in the short term, but it transforms into another kind of idol, just like everything does if your gaze is not fixed high enough. So you have to be wise about that. You have to be discerning about that. You have to be kind of cunning about it and quick to cut things out that are becoming. Are becoming that in order to stay as innocent as a dove.

[47:50] Michael: Yeah, it's kind of like the beginning of our conversation. We're talking about, you know, like, my business is to fix my attention and all my business is a good thing. And then all of a sudden it can also be a bad thing, or my family or, you know, my friendships or whatever it might be. It's like there's all these things that are good, but if they start to consume you, then they actually start to turn against you. So it's like.

[48:17] Matt: It reminds me of. I think we talked about this verse in Matthew last week, basically about the. Don't point out the speck in your brother's eye when you have a log in your own. But then he goes on to say, do not feed to dogs what is unholy and do not cast pearls before swine. And then usually that verse is quoted that way, do not cast pearls before swine. But it goes on. It says, lest they turn and attack you. Which is really interesting because you give what is good to the wrong thing. And it's not just a waste. That thing actually comes back for you.

[48:58] Michael: Oh, wow.

[48:59] Matt: In. In some kind of strange retribution. Which is just like what you're talking about.

[49:04] Michael: Yeah.

[49:05] Matt: You know, you. You put your attention in the wrong place. It might be a waste, but if you keep it there long enough, that thing is going to come back for you and ruin you.

[49:16] Michael: Yeah, that's good. Sorry, you kind of got me, like, pondering now because, like. Yeah, we just don't understand, like, how important it is to like, like even like, just talking to my kids. I think it was a couple nights ago, but at the dinner table was just sort of like, what? No, I was thinking about. Because they were talking about all these different influencers and stuff like that and things that they're interested in, and I was just like, the thought of it, because, like, it's like what you eat really does affect your body. And it's like what you give your attention to kind of affects your soul or your mind or your heart or however you want to say it.

[49:58] Matt: Right.

[49:59] Michael: And that we really do have to pay attention, like what, what we're like, focusing on or what we're allowing to grab our attention.

[50:06] Matt: Yeah.

[50:07] Michael: Because it really does affect you. And, and like you're saying, like, it can come after you almost. You don't even, you don't even realize it or like, if you're around negative people a lot, you know, and then, and then you can actually start to become pretty negative yourself.

[50:23] Matt: Totally. I mean, it's almost like the, you know, don't try to save a drowning man who doesn't want to be saved. It's like that. Like, I remember my dad, who was a therapist for 40 years, he used to tell me that you. You can't tell anything to anyone who doesn't want to hear it. And essentially he had another thing that he would say was, and I think it's quoting Benjamin Franklin, the problem with advice is that the fool doesn't want it and the wise doesn't need it. It's like you can't tell people things they don't want to hear. And in my own experience, I found that if you try to tell someone something that they don't want to hear, isn't that they just go, oh, I don't really want to hear that. No, they attack you for hearing what they don't want to hear. It isn't this sort of neutral waste water running off the back of somebody. It is a. And I can see that true in myself. You tell me something I don't want to hear. I want to object. I want to argue back. You know, it's like, I want to give something back.

[51:34] Michael: I also had this conversation. I can't remember how she stated this, but it was something about criticism. And I totally agree with what she was saying. And then I also had this little thing in my head. I was just like, well, not all the time. It's like basically always. It's like if you give people advice that they're not asking for it, that's basically criticism. And I was like, I do agree with that. Probably like a 90% of the time, but other times it's like sometimes when you give people advice, it's. It might not be for now, it might be for later.

[52:08] Matt: Right.

[52:09] Michael: And I think, you know, you could see Jesus doing this with The Pharisees too. It's like, like, you know, they. He could be criticizing them, but it wasn't like, you know, it's like definitely impacted, you know, them and the people around them. And it's like it was so. It's so. It's hard to say because I do get of it, like, oh, I was just giving them advice. It's like, like, well, you're actually just criticizing them. You know, it's like a. I like

[52:34] Matt: how you say it's for later. It's to go advice. Just wrap that home and take it. Wrap that up and take it home.

[52:39] Michael: Well, I think about it with parents specifically is like, you know, correcting your children and stuff like that and giving them advice. There's something about that. It's like some of this might not be for now. And I can think of a lot of things that my parents did in my life that I really didn't understand until many, many years later. And even though I didn't adhere or adhere their advice back then, it stuck in me, you know, Or I even remember some people telling me about Jesus when I was in high school and stuff like that and. And I wasn't really wanting to hear it. Yeah. But it's like stuck with me that at the right time, all of a sudden it came back to me.

[53:20] Matt: I mean, I think it takes a. A deft and caring hand in mind to accomplish that though. I mean, Gandalf does that and people listen and don't object even though they don't understand it. Then, you know, Frodo doesn't understand so many things until later. He's like, son of a bitch, that Gandalf. You know, and maybe it's. I think it was true of my dad, who also had a long white beard.

[53:53] Michael: He was very Gandalf. Yes.

[53:55] Matt: I mean, I started noticing this. I. As I got older, I was like. I started calling them time bombs. One would go off, I'd be like, oh my God, I see it now and remember something he had said to me many years earlier. But I think the restraint and the wisdom it takes to be able to do that, to say, I'm going to put this here for you. You don't understand it.

[54:20] Michael: This is for later.

[54:21] Matt: It's for later.

[54:23] Michael: Totally.

[54:23] Matt: This is to go advice and for me to come back across. I feel really thankful for that and I hope that I can grow to be that kind of man. I think it takes a tremendous amount of love and courage and also patience and

[54:43] Michael: I think not to get into particulars, but I've seen you do that with your kids and more recently, more of those time bombs kind of going off. Not necessarily what you said, but also how you handled the situation. And I think that's something that. I think what you said is like, I think it's. As a parent, specifically in this situation is being Will understand, like, okay, your kids are not going to probably listen to you right now. And it's not for right now.

[55:12] Matt: Yeah.

[55:12] Michael: But if you give this to them and are consistent, then this could be a fruit for them later in their lives. And so then you don't get irritated with them when they're. Oh, don't ever listen to me. The kids are also ungrateful. It's like, it's like, no, it's. It's what you're telling them right now is not for right now.

[55:30] Matt: Yeah.

[55:30] Michael: In fact, you can almost just, just, just completely accept that they're not going to listen to you.

[55:36] Matt: Yeah.

[55:37] Michael: And there's something about the thing that takes off the weight of you. It's like, no, I'm going to give you this for later, you know. Yeah, I don't know what you're going to do with it right now. And, you know, I don't know. I think there's something really helpful with that. I think, you know, there's little moments of that as we're talking about this. I'm like, oh, wow, okay. That's really helpful for me to see that, too. It's like, oh, I wish my kids would do this or do that. And it's like, okay, no, I just need to give them these things for now. It's also just very similar to the sower of the seed throws on the ground and then the side of the road and then into the fertile soil. It's like, you kind of don't know where, where the seed is going to go. It's like, you know, so you kind of do just throw it out there a little bit.

[56:25] Matt: Yeah.

[56:25] Michael: And maybe it's. Maybe it's very good soil for it to grow in. You know, I think the wisdom part that you're saying is also. Is very important. And you see Jesus doing that as like, he knew what to plant and when and where. And I think that was like, he was very aware and paid attention and kind of knew what he needed to sow at whatever time, you know.

[56:55] Matt: Yeah. He seemed to be. More restrained than almost anyone wanted him to be. You know, the common refrain, whether from the people or the Pharisees or the disciples, was like, say more.

[57:13] Michael: Do More. Say more.

[57:15] Matt: Say it more plainly. Just explain it to us. And I think, you know, maybe it's sort of like the biblical scale version of, like, this is for later. God's like, all of time. Later is all of time. It will take all of time for this to make sense, but it will make sense.

[57:41] Michael: It almost goes back to what you and I were texting earlier this week. We just were like, when?

[57:45] Matt: In due time.

[57:46] Michael: In due time. It's like, what do I do?

[57:51] Matt: Yeah, soon.

[57:53] Michael: Soon.

[57:56] Matt: Cheers to Dallas Jenkins for so cleverly incorporating that little meme into the chosen.

[58:01] Michael: Yeah, that was good.

[58:03] Matt: Yeah, I was. You and I were texting this week about just the. The sheer frustration of life at some times, and I sent you this verse. Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. And then we just started talking about what a hang up that is in due time. When is it due? It feels like it's due now.

[58:37] Michael: Yeah, like, no, you don't understand. Like, if there's a time, it's right now.

[58:40] Matt: It's right now. The time is now. The time is now. And he's like, no, in due time. And you, you pointed out that David, King David was anointed king with the oil when he was 15 and he did not become king of Israel until he was 37.

[58:56] Michael: Yeah,

[58:59] Matt: in due time. Almost never looks like the timing we want. And I mean, Joseph is another example that I'm just super fond of. You know, Joseph had a hell of a go of it. And ultimately, because I think he was faithful, just like David was faithful even through all of his many, many egregious sins.

[59:24] Michael: Totally.

[59:26] Matt: You know, and just picking up. He was a ladies man. Pick up wives left and right, you know, killing other men to take their wives. And it's like. And yet, because he was ultimately faithful and repentant, I think God was faithful to him. In due time.

[59:42] Michael: Yeah.

[59:43] Matt: So I'm not sure exactly what to do with that. You know, I'm not sure how to apply that. But I also can't think of a better way to approach my life. Like, I do believe that I am a person that is made by God, that is made in God's image. And what does that mean? Well, if I'm made in God's image, the supremely powerful, omnipotent, omniscient, loving God, what am I capable of? What. What am I supposed to be doing here? It must be something good. It must be something Amazing. I don't get it. But if I stay focused on it, and it's not exactly focused on myself or who I'm supposed to be, but focused on God, because I think that I can only become who I am supposed to be by looking at the author. Frodo doesn't become who he's supposed to be by going rogue from Tolkien. It's like he goes. He becomes who he's supposed to be by following the author. And so I follow the author to become who I'm supposed to be. It's not up to me whether that happens now or tomorrow or in 30 years. It just isn't. But every good story. Comes there at some point, right?

[61:17] Michael: So you just. You just think about all the things that have to unfold. Like. Like, I want my situation right now to change.

[61:23] Matt: Yeah.

[61:24] Michael: Okay. What are all the factors that need to happen in order for your situation to change? It's like, there is so many variables. It's not just a matter of, like, okay, here's a million dollars. Now your situation's changed.

[61:38] Matt: Right?

[61:39] Michael: It's like, well, how that million dollars get to you? Where did it come from? You know, it's like, how. What were all the events that led to that coming to be? You know, not even mentioned. Like, you know, like, well, when Jesus came, it's like, why didn't he just be super efficient? Like, hey, guys, I'm God. You. You know, everyone believe. He just, like, washes them with, like, overwhelming belief. Yeah, it's like. It's like, no, because there's something about our free will and. And that sort of wooing ourselves to him, or ourselves to him, himself to us, or whatever you say, you know, so it's like. It's like. So you ask for something. It's like sort of like. It's almost like, yes, let me put that into motion. And, you know, you have to get the plans. You have to submit them to city hall. You have to. You know, it's like there's this whole process that happens, like, to build King David into a king. It's like, that took time. Like, even, like, I loved it in the. In the House of David early on, you know, whenever he starts joining Saul's house and stuff like that before, well, you know, killed Goliath and stuff. You know, it shows him, like, he becomes a commander of a thousand. And this is their interpretation, but I think it's fairly accurate. And all the men that he's leaving were laughing at him because he's no soldier, of course. He's not a soldier. He played the thing.

[62:58] Matt: You're talking about their interpretation, you mean? Yeah, the show House of David.

[63:02] Michael: Yeah, the show's interpretation. But it makes sense. Sense to me. Like, okay, he killed a. He killed lions and bears with a sling. Okay, that's one thing. What's different from leading men and also fighting with a sword and to be cutting off 200 philistines foreskins, like, that's a whole different thing than just killing a lion.

[63:20] Matt: Also, they were savage.

[63:23] Michael: But my point in this is like. Is like, there was a part where, like, I'm going to. I've anointed you king. Now there's a process to make you a king.

[63:31] Matt: Right.

[63:32] Michael: And he learned a lot from being with Saul in that kingdom of what it meant to be king and what it meant not to be a king. And so I think there's a lot of these things we ask for, but we don't understand the process it actually takes to become that thing.

[63:46] Matt: Well, and presumably he watched Saul fuck it up and realized that, oh,

[63:55] Michael: you

[63:56] Matt: better be pretty careful with God's commandments to you, because even Saul thought he was doing something good, but it was going against God. But I want to go back to your point about you have things that you want to change. So do I. And mostly the things that I want to change are I want my troubles to stop. Which I just. It occurred to me, that's so interesting. Basically what I'm saying is I want the story to end. Because when you're reading a good story, when you're reading Lord of the Rings and you're engrossed in it, you don't want the troubles to stop. In a sense, you don't want the story to end. You want it to keep going. It's like they just got out of. Out of the caves of Moria. It's like, I want to keep going. What's next? So, like a good story, you don't want it to end, which is to say, you don't want the return to the shire, in a sense, you don't want to go back to where there was no trouble. Because the story is about the trouble and the overcoming of it and the development of it, the revelation and the insight that's gained because of it. And so I just. I guess I want to rebuke myself. It's like, I want things to change so that I don't have any trouble, so I don't have to keep living a story so that. What? So I can, I guess, be annihilated into this ouroboric incest of nothingness.

[65:27] Michael: Well, it's funny, too, because, like, even the hobbits talk about this. Like, they can't go back. It's like once you've tasted this, and even though it's so hard, it's like you can't go back. And we've brought this up so many times with Home dude in the Matrix, you know, he decides to go back.

[65:42] Matt: Cipher.

[65:43] Michael: Cipher. But it's like you just. You just see how, like, futile that is. Like, you're going to accept nothing. Yeah, Nothingness.

[65:51] Matt: Nothingness.

[65:51] Michael: And that's not what. So it's like. So there's a part of this, like, we have to kind of learn to, like. Like, submit to that. This. That discipline. Like, you know, the Lord disciplines those he loves, and that's for a reason. To grow them into something that's more than what they are right now.

[66:12] Matt: Yeah, we. I think, especially us millennials, maybe more so than you Gen Xers. I think we tend to think of the word discipline as a negative thing. As, like, discipline.

[66:30] Michael: Disciplinarian.

[66:32] Matt: Yeah. Like a spanking.

[66:35] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[66:37] Matt: But there's also just the discipline of sitting down with something and doing it over and over and over and over and over again until you can do nearly magical, unthinkable things with it. That's also discipline.

[66:48] Michael: Yeah.

[66:51] Matt: So, I mean, back to the idea of the cessation of trouble. That's the nothingness. That's the futility. That's cipher going back into the matrix. I think the alternative to that is to reframe trouble as adventure. It's like, is it troublesome that your plans for going on this particular route got thwarted by an army of orcs? Yes. What opportunities does that open up? Do you end up meeting this new character who helps you onto the road because you couldn't go the way that you would have designed to go? That's adventure. That's why we love these stories. But I think so often when we consider our own lives, we think, well, that's for the movies. That's for entertainment. That's fiction. It's like, I have real troubles, which mostly have nothing to do with even physical pain. They're mostly just annoyances of psychological worry. Or we have a chronically anxious generation of people right now, and what it is they're anxious about, nobody can say. They're just anxious because it affords them something, I think. But I think if we could reframe it all and say, no, if it's a good story, you don't Want it to end. And troubles should be met with triumphant shouts and horns blasting. There's this one when Theoden King is riding into the fields of. What is it? What is the battle at Pelletier? It's not Palantir, anyway. Outside of Minas Tirith. And I can't. I wish I could quote it. It's one of those. I was like. I read it, and I was like, I need to memorize that. So powerful. He's basically saying, you know, it's basically Braveheart, like, to the death.

[68:51] Michael: To the death, yeah.

[68:52] Matt: And you get this sense that they're writing and they are feeling like this is the best possible thing that we could ever do with our lives. I love doing this. I want to do this. We are shouting triumphantly.

[69:09] Michael: There's nothing more that I could give

[69:10] Matt: my life as we ride into this battle. We are shouting triumphantly as we ride in, as triumphantly as we would shout if we had won. It's the victory comes before the battle, in a sense, something like that. And I think that's what adventure is. You're saying the victory is won as you step into the battle.

[69:31] Michael: God, I feel like this conversation is kind of revealing my hiding. How I just want to hide from this. Like, dodge the draft or something like that.

[69:41] Matt: Right.

[69:42] Michael: It's like, I'm moving to Canada.

[69:49] Matt: Gosh. I just love the Lord of the Rings so much.

[69:51] Michael: It does. It has so many layers of great. What do they call it? Analogies or metaphors and all kinds of things like that. I think that's beautiful. It's like. Because, I mean, that's. There is. No one reads a story that is sort of like, Annie had no problems, or she had no problems. Everything worked out for her. It's like, okay, great.

[70:20] Matt: Yeah, that's not a story.

[70:22] Michael: And it's funny because, like, even you see this with politicians right now is like, oh, the billionaires, it's like they're taking everything from you.

[70:29] Matt: It's like, was that meant to be a Bernie Sanders?

[70:32] Michael: Yeah. I'm surprised I didn't do in a Scottish accent. Oh, yeah. But it's like. It's like they take away the story. Like, you know, even I was watching this thing with Joy Reid just talking about how Elon Musk didn't even really invent Tesla like these other two guys did. Well, Tesla didn't have a product when Elon Musk took it over. And basically just trying to, like, take away everything that he's. Or that he had to choose between two companies ended up choosing both. Of them and both of them end up being ultra successful. You know, it's like he faced so many trials along the way. It's not just like he all of a sudden became a trillionaire.

[71:08] Matt: Right.

[71:09] Michael: It's like there were so many forks in the road that he had to choose and put it on the line. And something that, if you, if you've never experienced it yourself and you can't understand that other people, it's like, you know, it's, it's, you just kind of just blow it off as sort of like, oh, they just have it so easy because they have all this money. It's like, well, also they have a lot more at stake in some respect. I mean, obviously there's, there's, there's other examples that don't fit that. But a lot of the business people that I've read, whether it be Steve Jobs, I've read so many biographies of people that would be like, oh, well, they just had it so easy. It's like, no, no, man. It's like these guys, like, and women that have succeeded at these high levels, it's like they've had to go through a lot to get there.

[71:53] Matt: Yeah.

[71:54] Michael: And some of it is luck, or however you define luck. I don't like the word luck, but, but, but in order for, to sustain that, there has to be substance behind it. And I think that's where the fire, going through the fire and, and, and being hardened helps you to be able to sustain it after you've maybe experienced some luck in your life. You know, I still want to stop using luck, but

[72:23] Matt: do you think there is such thing as luck?

[72:25] Michael: Well, this is a conversation I was having the son. I was just like, you know, in Ecclesiastes, like, rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. You know, it's like there's this sort of arbitrary aspect of life.

[72:36] Matt: Right, right.

[72:37] Michael: And, and so I think that's probably what we would call luck is this arbitrary aspect of life. However, and this is something you and I've talked about a lot is just sort of like, but those who have prepared their fills and, and accepted the discipline, it's like that there's long lived fruit from that. But somebody who hasn't done that work, it usually usually leads towards ruin at some point.

[73:02] Matt: Yeah.

[73:02] Michael: Soon after you see this with like young stars or basketball or athletes that haven't had the experience and maturity. There's so many stories of just wastefulness until they learn the lessons. And then you have your Shaquille o' Neal, who Investing in companies and pouring his resources into other things and being ultra successful.

[73:30] Matt: I think I agree with you. I think we could retire the word luck. Except when it comes to the luck Reunion Willie Nelson festival that happens every year, there's an I like that reframe. There's an arbitrary nature to things, but there is also a way that you can contend with the arbitrary nature of things in better or worse ways. And those things tend to compound.

[73:57] Michael: Yeah.

[73:59] Matt: The more you are unprepared, the more the arbitrary seems to move against you. And the more prepared you are, the more the arbitrary seems to fall on your side.

[74:10] Michael: Yeah. It seems to almost work for you because even in the. The negative aspect of it, it actually produces more discipline and more, you know, fertile soil for whenever it does turn, it has a place to grow.

[74:26] Matt: Well, like we say all the time, you learn more from failure than you do from success. And so if you are contending with the arbitrary aspects of your life, your circumstances, your plight, let's say, then you are more prepared to capture what is good, but you're also more prepared to learn from what is bad. What you might have previously called bad luck. It's like, okay, maybe there's another way to look at it. Is there such thing as bad luck? Well, maybe. But if you are in a position to take the bad luck and learn from it, maybe it's actually good luck because you have taken that in and assimilated it into your own ability to be better prepared to deal with it the next time.

[75:15] Michael: Yeah. And also just be able to counter blessings too, like just being born into the U.S. is that luck? Is it arbitrary? It's like, well, actually, you've already been afforded something. If you're just born in the US you're already afforded an opportunity that's more than 99 of the world.

[75:37] Matt: You know, 99 of history.

[75:40] Michael: History, yeah, totally. And you could almost say that for history almost anywhere in the world. You know, I think there's probably some places that are just as bad as, you know, 200 years ago, you know, but it's still, it's like. Is like there's so much opportunity today than there ever has been, no matter where you live in the world. I mean, just think, just take Starlink, for example. You know, the access that you have for information and the world. We were talking about the books.

[76:11] Matt: Yeah.

[76:12] Michael: You know, you can talk. You're really excited about that. I'll let you go with that.

[76:16] Matt: Yeah, just quickly. We should probably up wrap it up soon. That's true. Yeah. I watched this. So Tim Scott is this Englishman who has had this long standing popular YouTube channel that I've been watching for a long time. And he just recently did this tour of this cathedral in England. And I'm blanking on the name of the. The cathedral, but in the cathedral they have a library, and it's called a chained library, which apparently was a thing hundreds and hundreds of years ago. You didn't just have libraries where you could just go take books home. A book was generally what would be called a manuscript, which is manuscript, man, hand script, written, handwritten. So the amount of effort that it took to produce what we would think of as a book was so high that mostly only places like cathedrals had them and you couldn't take them. And so they actually literally chained them to the shelves. So go watch this video. It's super fascinating. But in the video, they pull out this manuscript of a Bible in English that was written in. I mean, the Bible wasn't written in 1402, but this was. This copy was produced in 1402. Written by hand. You know, it's about 6 inches thick. The script, the handwriting, it's just gorgeous. And I was watching that and I was just thinking, clear glass wasn't invented until like the late 1400s. So people didn't have windows, people didn't have spectacles. If you couldn't see, you couldn't see. Electricity wasn't available to people until the early 1900s. So we're talking 500 years later from when this book was produced. So this book was produced in a time where people were living basically in open air because a window was just a hole in the wall. So that's how light came in so you could do your work. And otherwise you had a candle and somebody spent who knows how many hours producing this thing, and then it survived. And then access is just almost impossible. If you wanted to read the Bible in the year 1400, you couldn't do it unless you were a very elite person. The only way you could read that text was actually not to read it, but to have someone read it to you by going to the cathedral and sitting there and listening to them read it to you.

[78:55] Michael: Because you also probably couldn't read at the time too totally.

[78:58] Matt: Almost everyone was illiterate. And so back to your point about the age we're born into. And I just, I was watching this and I was thinking, I feel so lucky to be born into a time in which getting to read something like the Bible is as easy as just driving down the street and purchasing One and taking it home, like that wasn't possible.

[79:23] Michael: Or just going to your computer and, like, typing in Bible.com or something like that.

[79:27] Matt: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I was just blown away by that. We just live in an extraordinary time, and almost no one in history has had the access to the things we have the access to. I mean, even the Bible, which we take for granted because it is legitimately the most printed book on the planet. There's copies of it everywhere, famously in every nightstand drawer in every hotel.

[79:53] Michael: I've got 20 at least at the house.

[79:55] Matt: Right, right. It's crazy, but you don't have to rewind that long in history before that just was not the case, and it wasn't the case for anyone before that. So maybe it's arbitrary. We were born in this time, but I sure feel glad for it, man.

[80:14] Michael: Honestly, it's like I'm. I'm kind of sad that we're doing it this end of it. There's so many parts of this that it's like the privilege that you have, you know, almost any in the world, anywhere in the world that you have over everyone else as far as, like, in time is insane.

[80:30] Matt: Yeah.

[80:31] Michael: And I just, you know, the access to information, it just. It just. It just boggles my mind. It's just. It's just there.

[80:42] Matt: Right.

[80:44] Michael: So anyways. But. Well, what do you want to wrap with? Any ending thoughts?

[80:57] Matt: Yeah, I guess I'll bring it back to the beginning because we do live in this time of extraordinary access, and I think that that makes the question much more pertinent because the answers are much more myriad. What are you fixing your eyes on? You have the option to fix your eyes on any number of trillions and trillions of interesting things. I mean, even, you know, just think about the history of the written word for a minute, or just think about the history of the Bible, whatever that may be to you. You could spend the rest of your life thinking about that. Like, it just blew my mind, like, seeing these handwritten copies of things and how things used to be and, you know, the. The limited access to them and the way things used to get made versus the way that they're made now. I mean, you could spend your whole life thinking about that. You have no limit to the options of things that you could fix your eyes on.

[82:01] Michael: Totally. Like chess. You could go limitlessly down that one road, you know?

[82:06] Matt: Yeah. I mean, maybe it's something like, as we progress, it's sort of like we're progressing toward an asymptote where we're getting closer to every direction leads down an infinite path. So which infinite path do you want to go down? And maybe we need to think hard about that. Like my attention is going to be consumed infinitely. All right. I should take a beat and think about where I want to put it.

[82:42] Michael: Yeah. Because it also has that. That tendency to also be dispersed in so many direction that you're not giving your attention to anything in particular. Even though you can go down one road fine, you know, all the way infinitely. It's like you can also just be

[82:55] Matt: go down infinite roads. Only one step.

[82:57] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[82:58] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's good food for thought and I'll leave my thoughts there.

[83:05] Michael: Yeah, I'm just going to go with yours.

[83:06] Matt: Okay, sounds good.

[83:08] Michael: Love it.

[83:09] Matt: There are thoughts.

[83:10] Michael: There are thoughts. There really are. All right, love you guys.

[83:13] Matt: Love you out there. Cheers. Sam.