Does the Devil Exist?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. It's just a peeping Tom protection.

[0:24] Michael: Going.

[0:25] Matt: We're going.

[0:26] Michael: All right.

[0:26] Matt: All right.

[0:27] Michael: We're doing it. Look at us. To the shores.

[0:30] Matt: To the shores. Cheers.

[0:32] Michael: Cheers.

[0:35] Matt: We're getting a little bit of everything. The audio feels hot tonight.

[0:41] Michael: Thank you.

[0:41] Matt: Yeah, you're welcome.

[0:44] Michael: Yeah. You've heard a little bump, Bump. Yeah.

[0:47] Matt: What's up with that? I might have to kind of adjust as we're going.

[0:49] Michael: Yeah.

[0:51] Matt: Well, welcome to episode 290 of the Shores of Ignorance.

[0:55] Michael: 290. We've been doing this for, like, is it coming up? Eight years.

[0:59] Matt: Eight years. We started in 2018.

[1:01] Michael: Dude, that's freaking crazy.

[1:03] Matt: It is, yeah. What is that?

[1:05] Michael: I think you keep kicking your mic.

[1:09] Matt: I think you're right. I think you're right. Okay, I'll stop.

[1:13] Michael: All right, I'm done. I'm stop there.

[1:18] Matt: Yeah. Eight years of this. Still loving it.

[1:22] Michael: Yeah, no kidding.

[1:23] Matt: I'm loving it.

[1:25] Michael: It's kind of impressive. We keep doing this.

[1:27] Matt: It's kind of.

[1:28] Michael: I mean, I think it's pretty awesome.

[1:30] Matt: Good to be impressed by yourself. Cheers to that.

[1:33] Michael: Yeah. Pat myself on the back to the shores here. There you go.

[1:38] Matt: Well, where do we want to go tonight?

[1:41] Michael: Well, I thought. I just want, like, it's kind of a fun. Because I think this will be. This will take us into a lot of different areas, but just basically, does the devil exist? I just love that. Just that statement, like, because I was like. It's like, if I was listening to this, I'd be like, whoa, wait a minute. Where are these guys going?

[2:01] Matt: Yeah, well, you told me that somebody asked you that recently. And when you said it, I thought, well, that's really interesting, because a lot of people talk about whether or not God exists. Nobody really ever talks about whether or not the devil exists, which is kind of a. That's kind of a neat trick, isn't it, that the Satan that Satan pulls, nobody's arguing about him.

[2:27] Michael: Yeah. It's kind of funny, like, because when those guys asked me, I was just like. I had to think about it, because I. I did. It wasn't a. It's. It's not a clean answer for me.

[2:35] Matt: Really?

[2:36] Michael: Yeah.

[2:37] Matt: That surprises me.

[2:38] Michael: Yeah. Because, like, if you ask me, like, if you want a clean answer for me, my answer is yes, but I have no idea what I just said.

[2:44] Matt: What's. What's the dirty answer?

[2:46] Michael: The dirty answer is, is it's not the pitchfork type of thing. You know, it's not like a lot of, I think what a lot of people think of as the devil. And so I don't really know what to make of it outside of that.

[3:01] Matt: It's not Will Ferrell's character on that SNL skit with George Strait, because, like, that's all like.

[3:07] Michael: That's kind of like kindergarten fairy tale kind of. Kind of. It's kind of like people picture goddess or like the old man in the sky. I feel like there's a lot of that surrounding what the devil is, you know, and so I kind of have the. There's so many different ways to kind of come at this is like. Like, there is real evil, you know, and. And that's something I can't deny, you know, especially I just listened to a hearing on, you know, some kids being sold into sex slavery and stuff like that. And it's like. It's like, do you know how depraved you have to be to take an innocent child.

[3:43] Matt: Yeah.

[3:43] Michael: And put it into sexual slavery? Like, that kind of depravity. Like, there's no other word for it than evil. You can't say, like, oh, well, that's just bad. Or we deem that in Western society as morally reprehensible. Reprehensible. It's like, that doesn't do it justice. And so maybe I'm kind of being dramatic or emotional about it, but people just seems like evil is something that. And it's. That kind of like, encompasses what that is.

[4:16] Matt: Do you think broadly Western society believes that evil exists?

[4:23] Michael: I don't think so. I mean, so this is. I mean, I think this is kind of why this is an interesting subject right now is you're kind of hearing this whole thing of like, you know, and I think this is absurd, and I think it's such a small percentage of people that actually believe this, but that we don't need prisons. You know, that's. I've heard a couple of these new Democratic. Democratic socialists say this, and I'm like, have you ever been to a prison outside of maybe making like, you know, Mandami went to a prison, and, you know, of course he's going to get cheers because all these guys are in prison. He's like, I want to get rid of this thing.

[4:57] Matt: Right.

[4:57] Michael: Yeah, we love you, dude.

[4:58] Matt: Yeah.

[4:59] Michael: But, like, I've been in prisons. I've been in, like, over 30 prisons. I've talked to. I've been in interviews, hundreds of interviews with inmates.

[5:07] Matt: Yeah.

[5:08] Michael: And there's one thing I'll tell you is that These are human beings, and. But human beings are capable of horrendous things. And some people can change and some people won't change. And that's, that's just really, I, I believe that everyone's capable of change. But

[5:30] Matt: willing is another thing.

[5:31] Michael: Willing is another thing. And the atrocities that people have committed are really, you know, atrocious. Atrocious.

[5:40] Matt: Yeah. Well, it surprises me that the answer to a question like, does Western culture believe evil exists? Is sort of a soft answer, kind of like, not really, maybe. And I wonder what's up with that. I mean, it seems like broadly, to the extent that our culture believes that evil exists, it's either the result of an injustice which is somehow justified as a response to the injustice, or something that existed in the past or. Exists not based upon any kind of principle of behavior or, or principle of morality, but only a principle of. In group, out group. Evil exists outside of my group.

[6:40] Michael: Oh, that's interesting. In group out group.

[6:42] Matt: So, for example, there's been a large push on the progressive side of our culture to abolish the police, close the prisons. All of this is unjust. But when it comes to a political opponent that they hate, Donald Trump, just as the font head, they celebrated his mugshot and wanted him put in prison, if not assassinated.

[7:03] Michael: Yeah.

[7:03] Matt: And I don't think that in that case they would say, well, that's not evil, that's just justice. And so where is the evil if it does exist?

[7:13] Michael: Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting contradiction. I didn't, I didn't pick up, like, he should be in jail. It's like, well, you're trying to be, you're trying to get rid of jails. So just for jails for certain types of people that you don't like.

[7:26] Matt: Or there's another word for that. It's called a gulag.

[7:28] Michael: Oh, that's true. That's true.

[7:34] Matt: But then on the opposite side of that, if the person they don't like is trying to put people in jail, then those are the concentration camps, those are the gulags. So, I mean, maybe there's something deep to it that without God, morality gets impossible to define. And so you can only really define it on things like aesthetics and in group, out group. But it's a little bit scary to think that one. Everyone is familiar with the debate about whether God exists. Nobody's really familiar with the debate about whether the, whether the devil exists. And we've lost touch with the existence of evil just as a concept that has a definition that can Be pointed to. So have we also lost contact with the idea of good? I mean, it kind of seems like we have. You know, you don't. Maybe. If you don't have definitions of the extremes, God on one hand and Satan on the other, the devil on the other, then how do you draw. How do you say, where good and evil fits upon some kind of spectrum. And if good and evil is divorced from morality, and morality is only a ultimately social construct or something. A social construct or a statement of preference or a reflection of an emotional state, which it can really be all those things, you know, if I'm emotionally distraught, something wrong has happened to me. That is a perspective many people take,

[9:15] Michael: whether real or perceived.

[9:17] Matt: Exactly. Yeah. If I feel offended, that means someone has offended me. And morality is drawn upon those lines, not against or on the lines of any kind of principle of virtue or sin. And so it seems like the two would have to come hand in hand that we lose touch with the existence of evil. I guess I'm asking a question. Do we also lose touch with the existence of good?

[9:52] Michael: Yeah. I think that's kind of why the statement of, like, does the devil exist? Is such a great sort of way to kind of jump into this conversation. Because it is. That's kind of the extreme of it is. Is like, is there an outside entity that's an adversary that. That wants to sow chaos and discord? You know, and it's hard because you can kind of see it, like, philosophically or you even talk about it as a spirit of discord or spirit of, you know, everyone's under the same sort of, like, malaise of an ideology or something like that. And you. We kind of see that as a spirit, you know, like Jeffrey Dahmer, you know, sort of like he had all these followers that are kind of under. Under a spirit of some sort, you know, and again, maybe that's. Even if that's. Even if you don't even think of this in a spiritual way or. Or it's. It's. You still see it in, like, the ideal ideology has captured them. And so it's interesting, like, how we would phrase it that way is like, we. We see the individual as different from what has captured them. Like, even our justice system sees that as like, you know, you've committed this horrible act. Now, let's understand to the degree that you are complicit in this, you know.

[11:15] Matt: Yeah.

[11:16] Michael: In this act, like, you know, you know, if something. And it shows that you are more. More complicit then the charges usually End up being more. Because there's more agency involved, but the less agency you have, the, the, the, you know, it's like, oh, wow. They were just like, you know, what do you call it? Mind controlled or what do you call it when someone like abuses people until they take on their, what's like Stockholm syndrome or something like that, you know? Yeah, it's like there's all these things

[11:51] Matt: they like groomed or hypnotized or Same.

[11:53] Michael: Yeah, probably fits under those things too. So it's interesting, like even in our

[11:57] Matt: legal system, psychologically programmed.

[11:59] Michael: Yeah. So we kind of recognize that like. And I think the easiest way that we talk, you can say that is like they were under a spirit of some sort.

[12:08] Matt: Yeah.

[12:09] Michael: And whether there's an actual spirit, you know, outside of that sort of ideology is a whole other question. But.

[12:19] Matt: Well, I mean, what, what is that question? Is there an actual spirit? I mean, that seems to me to be somewhat self evident. What isn't? Maybe? So self evident is, well, what is its nature and what sort of form does it take? And how do I fit that. Into the model of reality in which I keep freaking stumbling over this word. What's the word for you basically believe only atoms exist in? Materialist, materialist. I fit that into sort of my materialist perception of reality, which I think we all have to some degree a materialist perception of reality because we're post enlightenment, postmodern, weird, Western, educated, industrialized. What is the R? Do you remember?

[13:15] Michael: No.

[13:16] Matt: Yeah, a realist, rationalist, I don't know, democratic, something like that. Rich. I think it's rich. Rich, democratic, Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic. This is the milieu that we're swimming in. This is the zeitgeist through which we see everything and we are very materialist. If I can't see it, touch it, smell, it doesn't exist. So you have to go to abstract definitions for things like spirits. But I think it's like I said, it seems self evident to me that a spirit does exist. We've all encountered the spirit of a concert or the spirit of the spirit. What is it when you watch these SpaceX videos where they do these amazing things and you see the entire employee base of SpaceX in one room just shouting and celebrating, screaming that there's a spirit to that.

[14:19] Michael: Or like Jung would call it, the collective conscious. You know, it's like there's something that we share, like a consciousness with each other. It's like not, not just individual consciousness. It's like there's a. There's A shared consciousness.

[14:30] Matt: Yeah. So it clearly exists. What is it? What are we to do about it? I mean, How do you conceptualize it? And maybe this is back to the question of the devil.

[14:41] Michael: It's like,

[14:44] Matt: is the devil a person? Does he have a form? Do we need to know the answer to those questions? To know that there is a spirit which can persuade us and does persuade us to do things that in our sort of right mind we would not want to do? And when we do them, we regret them. Clearly, I think we know that most of us, maybe we think we don't know it because we've never done anything that we would consider truly evil. Like we would consider Jeffrey Dahmer truly evil. We considered what happened in Nazi Germany truly evil. And we think, well, we would never do anything like that. But you know, that you're persuaded by your darker impulses all the time. And something so simple as what you choose to eat or what you choose to put into your body whether that's, you know, the content that you consume or the ways that you choose to avoid responsibility and you fail to love the people that you want to love. It's like, why do you do this? This is a question that I think mankind's been wrestling with forever. And there's all kinds of interesting answers to it. But I do think, in part there is. There is. There is something, maybe. Maybe a good way to think of it is that is like this. I think we all sort of take for granted and maybe, maybe somewhat rightfully so, that there is good in us. Many of us fail to live up to the full measure of it. But there's good in us. And I think we also recognize that there is something outside of us which has the ability to speak to that good in us. You might say it's the good. In other people. You might say it's wisdom. But that good can be spoken to. And when that good is spoken to, it resonates. And that resonance produces an effect on the world. And ultimately, I think, grows kind of like the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day. That's in that story. Because we understand that. We understand that it's possible for a heart to grow. And what does it grow as a result of? It doesn't grow of its own accord. It grows as a result of interacting with something that resonates it. You know, it grows because Cindy Lou who, you know, isn't afraid to go befriend the Grinch. And so I think it's also true in the other sense. There's also something in us that we recognize to be not good. Something that, you know, maybe it just something in us that kind of delights when an enemy falls or fails or delights when the, you know, the, the person we're jealous of in school gets dumped or doesn't catch the winning pass or whatever.

[17:39] Michael: Totally.

[17:41] Matt: And that part of us, and I'm trying to use just very sort of soft examples.

[17:45] Michael: Yeah. Mundane.

[17:47] Matt: Yeah. We've all, I think, noticed this in ourselves, you know, or delights when we get that zinger in in an argument. I mean, that's you've got mail. That famous line Tom Hanks delivers about getting the zinger in. And you get the zinger in and you feel great. You're like, I'm awesome.

[18:08] Michael: I dominated that.

[18:09] Matt: I dominated it. And then all of a sudden there's some humanity in you that sees that, oh, I just dominated another person so that I could feel that little euphoria. So that part of us, just like the good part of us can be spoken to. And perhaps you might ask the question, well, who's speaking to it? And some sort of far reaching answer might be. Well, ultimately the ultimate answer to who is speaking to the good part of me? The ultimate answer to that is God. And who is speaking to and resonating with and delighting in the growth of that part of me which is bitter and resentful and jealous and proud and lustful and vengeful and sadistic and masochistic and all of these things. That's the devil. And you know, of course it is in a sense. All of those things are the praise of self. All of those things are I got the last word, I got mine in. I got my zinger. I'm so good, my intellect's so awesome. I took down that person. I'm stronger than them, more resilient than them. They're weak. Isn't that what some of the most heinous crimes of the 20th century were perpetrated upon? I'm better than those people is the praise of self. And that's what the devil is. I think so.

[19:51] Michael: I still have a hard time. Like. Like that's what the devil is. It's like, I don't know. I still don't.

[19:57] Matt: I don't.

[19:57] Michael: I don't understand what that means. But however, I think that's the part why I say like. Like if someone said like, do you believe the devil's exist? Yes, but I don't understand what that is because I feel like I see the effects of it. You Know, sort of like you see the effects of the wind or something like that. You know, it's like, you're like, oh, there's wind. It's like, where's the wind? It's like, you see. See the tree, the leaves, like, blowing around? It's like, like, yeah, but. Okay, but where's the wind? You know, you. You just can't. You. You can only see it by the particles in the sky or something like that. And I think that's kind of the part where I see this whole. You know, does evil exist? I'm like, yes. And then it's like, well, where is it? It's like, well, don't you see, like, what's happening out here? And I think that's the. I think that's hard. That. That's kind of the hard thing I have with this is, is it's something that it explains more than it confuses. If I. If I admit that there is evil and that there is something. There's actually something that is desiring the propagation for that to grow. That. And then, because I think that's the thing too, is like, in and by healthily. I think there's also a health aspect of it, too, is when you place it outside of the person. Like, you see a person as captured by something, then it. It then you can still. You still have value in the person themselves. Like, if you say, like, oh, that person is evil, even if you go to Hitler, like, that person is evil. It's like, I would. I think it's, like, more accurate to say that they're captured by evil.

[21:48] Matt: I don't know that that's more accurate. It's just adding a recognition, I think, to what I was talking about that there is something in all of us that can be spoken to. I mean, Hitler was clearly a very charismatic and likable and powerful person, powerful orator. He was obviously speaking to something in the hearts of people that they were responding to. And I would say in one sense, Hitler was no more evil than any person, because I think. I really do believe that. As we mention in our discussions all the time, Solzhenitsyn said evil. The line between good and evil is drawn right down the heart of every man. We have both of these things in us, and to the extent that we allow ourselves to follow them, we affect good or evil in the world. So was Hitler more or less evil than someone else? I don't think that that's so much the right question. The right question is, who did he choose to listen to? What Part of his heart did he choose to follow? And who. And who was speaking to that part of his heart that he was listening to and saying yes and saying yes to? Saying yes. More of that. Yes, more of that. And I think it's pretty clear that, you know, you can't have done the things that you have that were done by Hitler and be listening to the voice that is resonating with the good in you. I think that's fairly clear.

[23:26] Michael: Which kind of comes back to a point I think you. And I've made a couple times already. Also is like, the actor who played the Nazi general, Like, they're like, somebody asked him was like, how is it to play somebody who was so evil? And his answer was, is like, because he wasn't. And it kind of shocked the interviewer. Interviewee or interviewer? Like, what do you mean? He's like. He's like. Because he thought he was doing good and.

[23:51] Matt: Oh, you're saying the character.

[23:53] Michael: The character. Yeah. He played a character. And, like, she was wanting to know, like, how it was. How did it feel to play someone so evil? And it just, like, that answer just, like, sent off light bulbs in my head. It's like, oh, wow.

[24:04] Matt: Do you know who that was?

[24:06] Michael: I had the picture in my head, the guy. But I'm horrible with actor names, as you know. Um, but I thought that was really interesting. Is like, some of the people who perpetuate the most evil or that what we call evil think they are actually doing good. You know, I mean, whether it's, you know, killing babies or, you know, population control, it's like, just for the good of humanity, you know, it's like there's, you know, or whatever it might be.

[24:35] Matt: Yeah. I do think most people who perpetrate evil do think they're doing good. And that's one of the. Again, it's sort of another of those tricks of Satan, I think is Satan is trying to turn everything upside down and say, no. You only think that that's bad because you were told that it was bad. You know, it goes back to the fall. You were told not to eat from the tree, but God's deceiving you, and your eyes will be opened if you eat from the tree.

[25:10] Michael: Oh,

[25:14] Matt: you only think. All you people who think that I'm gathering the stones of Infinity Stones in order to wipe out half of humanity, you think that I'm being evil. But it's really just that you don't understand. It's really that for everyone's good.

[25:31] Michael: Yeah.

[25:32] Matt: It's like well, yeah, but not for the people you're killing. It's not for their good.

[25:35] Michael: Yeah. Who are you to decide?

[25:37] Matt: Right.

[25:37] Michael: But because it was random. It was like, you know, he thought he was being just.

[25:42] Matt: But I do think, and I think that largely that was Thanos real. Yeah.

[25:47] Michael: Just in case.

[25:47] Matt: Yeah, largely. Did I not say Thanos? I referenced the Infinity Stones.

[25:52] Michael: I know, but I just felt like I had to say it.

[25:57] Matt: And largely, that is the. The trick that we are wooed by and succumb to. Because knowing what is good is often having to appeal to things that are outside of us. And we have to humble ourselves to our lack of ability to perceive it and to execute it. And you have to have a place of humility, whereas evil requires no such thing. Evil is. It is self justified. I'm perfectly justified in what I'm doing. And if you say I'm not, it's because you're just not as smart as me, not as well informed as me. Um, but I do want to say, I think that there is a kind of evil that isn't exactly that way. There is a kind of evil, you might call it sadism, that delights in watching other people suffer. And that is a. That is a sort of, you know, it's like the. Who's the kid in the Toy Story movie, the original one. He destroys all the toys and he makes all these Frankenstein toys and he's trying to up blow him up. That's sort of the little kid's version of the sociopathic sadist. And, you know, those people exist, you know, like, it's a terrible story, but I heard this story when I was a kid about this guy who used to buy kittens and bury them neck deep and then take a golf club to the heads. I mean, there are people like that. Yeah, there are people that delight in that. Just like there are people that, well, sex traffic, children. I don't think that those people think they're doing a good thing. I think that they know that they're doing a good thing and they love it. Or doing a bad thing and they love it. And you might say that it's not the love of evil. It is. It is their own intense anger at the nature and structure of reality that causes them to want to inflict pain on someone else in order to soothe their own wounds, Something like that. But I think that that's a more purposeful delighting in evil and not a being sort of tricking yourself into thinking that you're actually doing good.

[28:20] Michael: I think what you're describing here is kind of the shift. Shift from sort of like being caught up in something and submitting to something. I think that's the big diff. There's a big difference in that. Like, you know, in the more like, like sadist type of type of example. It's sort of like you've kind of committed yourself to that idea of suffering, you know, or making people pay because of some. Maybe some wrong done to you. And it's like you're acting out on the world because you're, you know, something has been done to you. So I want to cause chaos and havoc on the world because, like, we've talked about this before. Like, the Joker is sort of like he doesn't care about money, he cares about nothing. He just wants everything to burn.

[29:08] Matt: Right.

[29:09] Michael: And what do you do with that?

[29:11] Matt: The ultimate nihilist.

[29:12] Michael: In the ultimate nihilist. Yeah, yeah. Like, I believe in nothing. And that's. But even that's not true for him because if you believe in nothing, you don't do anything. It's like. But he'll believe in nothing. And he wanted to strike out against everything. Like he wanted to cause as much pain and suffering as he could. So it's like even that kind of tells you he believes in something. So it's like there's almost no such thing as a complete nihilist because he would just probably just go away.

[30:00] Matt: I think people who are like that. You see this in some of the school shooters, particularly in the Columbine shootings that happened. There's a nihilism, but then there's a. There's a, like a desperation to prove it.

[30:18] Michael: Oh yeah.

[30:19] Matt: It's like the Joker is. I'm going to prove to you that nothing matters by taking everything from you. Something like that.

[30:28] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting.

[30:30] Matt: And that again is, I think, the celebration of self. It's like I'm going to conform reality to me. And again, it's the very opposite. We talked a couple weeks ago about a definition for the word truth, which is conforming yourself to reality. I think that the ultimate evil demands that reality be conformed to it. I mean, isn't that, you know, if we kind of consult some biblical references for Satan and what he might be, Isn't that what Satan attempts to do when he tempts Jesus in the desert? It's like you conform to my reality.

[31:06] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[31:07] Matt: And I will give you your heart's desire.

[31:15] Michael: Yeah. I think my, my one experience of this that sticks with me the most is kind of like I was saying earlier, it's like I've been in hundreds of interviews with different people. When I work for Texas Department of Criminal Justice, I would sit in all interviews. I was there for just a few of the questions, but I had to sit through the whole hour and a half interview or 45 minute interview. And most of the time my experience was I just saw, even though they had done something really horrible, I saw the sort of recognition in their eyes that, oh man, I up in. And. And then you kind of like, now there's, there's this one process is the intake process where people are coming off the buses from like the state jails into like the, you know, either maximum, minimum or low security prisons. And I had to sit through quite a few of those where they were getting off the buses. And I'm there for like a few questions because I'm an auditor and I was an auditor. And you could tell the ones that had been there before. There's a certain cockiness and swagger that they had, but you could tell the ones that was their first crime. They come in, they're just like, their eyes are huge. They're like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? And it's like this kind of confusion of like, I don't know what, what's going on here. And. But this one time I walked into this, I went into this maximum security prison and we're going all the way into the back because we had to interview this one person. And so there's a guard tower in the middle and there's two or three stories of, of cells. And all these cells are like plexiglass cells. Like, this is kind of where the worst of the worst are you. And I remember looking up and this guy was pacing back and forth and I remember him looking at me and I was. The first thought that came into my head was like, that guy should never get out of here.

[33:04] Matt: Just from the way he looked at it.

[33:06] Michael: Just the way he looked at it. I don't know this guy. And I believe everyone can, can change, but I. That was the first thought that went through me because, like, the way he looked at me, I was just like, I was like, if he could, he would kill me right now. And I don't know if anybody's had that. Had that look or whatever or been in a situation like that, but that was like, it was very obvious to me at that.

[33:26] Matt: I think we've probably all seen that kind of thing depicted in movies, but I think it's probably pretty rare that People have encountered that in their lives.

[33:35] Michael: Yeah, yeah, it's pretty.

[33:38] Matt: I mean, so maybe that's a good way to think about the answer to the question, do you believe in the devil? Like, what does it mean to believe in the devil? Or to believe in God, for that matter? If we sort of work from these examples of first principle, taking for granted that I see a tendency for good and a tendency for bad in my own heart, and I see that that can be resonated with and spoken to and grow in either direction. And then you see an example like that, and you see something that chills your bones, and you say, I saw. He would kill me if he could, for no reason that I can imagine. I just see that much hate in him. So you might ask, well, what is the. Okay, let's call that a spirit. There is a spirit of evil. We can make touch with it in ourselves. We can see it in other people, however rare those examples may be, or however unwilling we are to see evil in places in our. In our culture. Like, I think there's many things in our culture that we are asked and demanded to celebrate which are, in fact, quite evil. But, okay, so there's a spirit, and you can see a direction to that spirit. So the question might be, who is the devil? Maybe the devil is the ultimate expression of that spirit. If that spirit were expressed perfectly in the direction of a travel that you can see it going, what would that look like?

[35:17] Michael: Kind of like an archetype or something like that?

[35:18] Matt: Something like that. Because I think the opposite. And the very interesting example of the opposite is, you know, when you ask, do you believe in God? Nobody really says, well, what does that mean? Some. Some people talk about it, but. And I think the reason for that is there's a really good example that brings that into personal focus. Well, I believe in Jesus, like, God actually came here and became a man. I can point to that man. That's what I believe in. You don't really have that with the devil or Satan, but I can point to that. But I think the principle works similarly in the opposite direction. Really. Satan is the opposite direction. But the principle that Satan is against, that he is moving away from. And I think this is corroborated biblically in the texts that, okay, I see this part of me that is inclined toward good and delights in what is good. And I can see Mother Teresa, I can see Jesus, and I can tell that I'm nowhere near them. Okay, So I have a direction. What is the ultimate expression of that spirit? And I Think that the answer is God. God is the ultimate expression of the spirit, of goodness. Which brings us back to our conversation a couple weeks ago about the word. And really the ultimate expression of that is that God spoke and all of us came into existence. We are the potential expression of that. And yet, through our own sin and through the coaxing and deception of the spirit, of the devil, of evil, we fall short of that expression. We fall short of that which we truly desire.

[37:21] Michael: I think also maybe helpful to even kind of put this in, like, just a little closer Christian perspective as sort of like. Like, in. In the. In the Bible, it's like the devil is not on par with God or Jesus. Like, the devil is on par with Archangel Michael. So it's like he's more of an angelic aspect of. Of the reality that's. That the. The Bible talks about. So it's like he was, like, the one that was closest or the highest of. He was a light bearer of the. Of the angels. And so it's like. So a lot of people, like, equate, like, Jesus and the devil as sort of like, ying and yang. And that's actually not like, a biblical view of the devil, you know? And so, like. So, like, I think that's a part. Is like. And at some point, where are you

[38:12] Matt: seeing the yin and yang kind of?

[38:13] Michael: Well, I'm just talking about popular. Popular culture, a lot of areas. Like. Well, like, even, like, in Mormonism, they'll put, like, sort of Jesus and Satan brothers. It's kind of like their.

[38:22] Matt: Do they teach that?

[38:23] Michael: Yeah, it's something in that direction. You know, interesting. And I think even in Church of Scientology might even kind of have a little bit. No, this is. I'm just gonna stick with that.

[38:33] Matt: Well, I can imagine that would be where you might arrive if you try to develop sort of a generalized sense of spirituality. You know, in that sort of modern secular spirituality, there's a. There's a real need to sort of be unspecific about things, because the whole thing kind of falls apart if you try to get specific. It either leads into Christianity or it falls apart, in my opinion. But in that case, you might say, well, there's good and there's bad, and they're fighting against each other, and in some sense, they're equals, and they need our agency to help the good win. That would be a very easy and comfortable place to land, I think.

[39:13] Michael: Totally. I mean, but biblically, like. Like, at some point, Lucifer was the light bearer, and he was good. Like, that's very clear. In the Bible, it's like. But then he chose, you know, to not, you know, worship God. I forgot the exact moment, but it's like he chose to not worship God. And so, you know, he was cast. Cast down. And it's like, you know, so there's something about actually knowing what is good and doing the opposite. Like, that's kind of like the spirit of what the devil is, is like knowing what is good and intentionally trying to destroy what is good. Like, I think that's kind of more of the spirit of what the devil is.

[40:00] Matt: I think the story is, or the way that it's described is that Lucifer sees and beholds the glory of God and is in love with it, just like everyone else, all the other angels. But he's. Rather than draw near to it, he says, no, I want that glory for myself. I want to be that. I want to be God. Not, I want to know God. I want to be God. In which case he's sort of immediately has to be the inverse in some sense, because you can't be God.

[40:37] Michael: There's only one.

[40:38] Matt: Yeah, yeah.

[40:42] Michael: Isn't that crazy? I think. I think it's also really helpful. In the direction that you were taking us was sort of like. And it might be more approachable, like, in some regard. It's like. It's like just the archetype of what the devil sort of like, encompasses, you know, as far as, like, you know, like, whether or not he exists, that's one thing. But then, like, what does the devil, the archetype of the devil, you know, sort of like, embody, you know, does that make sense?

[41:11] Matt: And I.

[41:11] Michael: That Bobby kind of spreading around a little bit of, like, the. The actual entity itself.

[41:17] Matt: But.

[41:18] Michael: But I think you're. You're kind of like. Or when you were describing that, like, I was like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, sort of like, you know, you start putting together, like, all those sort of like, rebellion against what is good is like, that's kind of what the devil represents. It's like. It's like anything that is pure or good or like, you know, a love of a mother and a child. Like, it's like. It's like if. If you want to destroy that, you know, if you're jealous of that, like. Like, that's sort of all encompassed in what the devil is, you know, does that make sense? It's funny even in that I kind of feel like I'm like. I'm trying to, like, detour it away from, like, whether or not the devil actually exists. But. But at the same time, it's like. I think that's one thing I have with that.

[42:12] Matt: What, as a Christian, is the alternative to the devil actually existing? I mean, that seems pretty clearly spelled out in the Bible.

[42:22] Michael: It does, but I think. I think, too, is like. I think there's. There's a part where you kind of hear this, like, oh, the devil made me do it. It's like, no, you have agency, and you. You are the one who did it. Even though you might be under. You know, I think that's a hard thing to accept, is like, yes, you might be in horrible circumstances, but if you don't accept that you did it, I think that's where a lot of, like, from what I understand, like, PTSD is like, you have to kind of atone for your complicitness in the situation.

[42:58] Matt: Yeah, well, I mean, that's dealt with very early on in Genesis. That's the Cain and Abel story. I mean, Cain goes to God complaining about his circumstance and his plight, and God basically says, evil crouched at your door like a sexually aroused predator. And you invited it in and said, have your way with me. There is some point at which you can rightfully say, the devil made me do it. I mean, I think we can be inhabited by things. We cannot be unwillfully inhabited by things, though. So there was a point at which you invited it in. There's a really. I think I've talked about it before in this book called People of the Lie, in which the psychologist Scott Peck lays out, I don't know, six or eight case studies from his career, and he's actually dealing with the question of evil in the book. It's a very hard book in many senses. The last chapter is about exorcisms. And he sort of is careful about it because he's like, you know what that is? Exactly, is hard to say. But he says, I have attended some, and I can say it is very real. But he also reflects on the fact that these people who seem to be inhabited completely at the point at which the exorcism is even suggested by anybody, they do seem to be clearly inhabited by something against their will. But then I think he goes on to make the case, I might be mixing stories here, but to say that unwinding, that you always have to get to the point where that person made the choice, submitted to it, and submitted to it, once you've submitted to it, it may be very well that it does take you over to an extent that you can't get yourself gotcha that's wrenched free. But there is always the point at which you say, I submit I will.

[44:57] Michael: You know, we see this in movies a lot, too. It's like whenever, you know, there's some sort of abusive situation or someone is being wronged and, you know, you kind of see people, especially more extreme circumstances, you kind of see people go one of two ways. It's like either they succumb to it and, like, embody that, or they, you know, and then they become the very thing that they hated or that was done to them. You know, it's like in a lot of. In a lot of ways, it's like, you know, if there was sexual promiscuity with minors, it's like. And you're a part of that. It's like there's a. There's a higher probability that. That most people that do that were. Had it happen to them. And so it's like, well, if you had it happen to you and it was so bad, like, why are you doing this to other people? Right? And it's sort of like. And I think it's pretty much, you know, I don't know if we're at word, but 80% of people that do do, like, pedophilia and that kind of stuff had. Had it happen to them.

[46:02] Matt: Funny way to say that. That. Do pedophilia. Yeah. Do you do pedophilia?

[46:07] Michael: Yeah, but I think that's. I think that's a part is like, you know, you can either, like, there's something about. Like, well, now you've. You've experienced that yourself, and. And now you're imposing that on other people. You're perpetuating that on others. This is kind of deep water.

[46:26] Matt: It is. And I do want to say a couple of things about it. I think you become what you commune with. I think that's why at the Last Supper, Jesus says, this is my body, this is my blood. When you do this, do this in remembrance of me. There's a consumption to that. A literal. He's calling us to literal consumption and digestion. Let me become you. Because that's in the sense. It's the nature of who we are. It's the nature of reality. But it also works with other things. You become what you consume. And maybe it works the other way, too. You become what consumes you. And there are really terrible examples I think, of especially with children who are helplessly consumed by something evil and that's a part of them. And I don't know exactly what to do about that. I don't know what to do about the fact that that seems really awful. That statistically people who do things like that, that has been done to them, that's no excuse. Is it deserving of my sympathy? I don't know. Maybe. I mean, to the extent that that helpless child was abused, you know, if I have sympathy for the child in front of me who was abused, should I not have sympathy for the child in them. In them who was abused, however many decades ago? I guess in some sense I do, but there was a failure for that person to recognize that in themselves and get it out. I think we have to do that. We have to get out what we consume that we shouldn't have. We have to get it out. I don't know exactly how we do that. Maybe part of it is you gotta move the new in. You know, maybe that's why there's this constant metaphor about new wine skins in the. In the. In the Bible. It's like, you gotta get yourself reborn.

[48:54] Michael: You know what's fascinating because, I mean, it's like even just taking out, like, the sexual aspect that was like, you know, if you grow up in a house of violence, it's like there's a high likelihood that you also, you know, create violence yourself.

[49:06] Matt: And you see that you learn that because you have to start behaving that way in that environment in order to not suffer, not perish.

[49:17] Michael: Yeah.

[49:20] Matt: I was talking to my. One of my teenage daughters who was. Has been working with some young kids, and she was talking to me about this little girl who. Who really loves her. Loves my daughter and wants her attention all the time. And she said, it's kind of gotten to those. To where, like, if she can't have my attention, she kind of negs me. And then when I give her my attention, she acts like I. She goes, oh, you hate me. You don't care about me. And I was like. And my daughter was like, no, I was trying to. She's like, I'm trying to tell her, no, I. I love you. I care about you. That's why I'm coming to talk to you. That's why I'm here. She said the girl cross her arms and turn kind of spitefully back at her. She's like, you don't care about me. And I was like, that's probably how she. In some environment of hers, someone has treated her that way. That for her to get the attention that she needs and craves and desires to get the love she needs and craves and desires. What? Sorry, I got mixed up in my pronouns there. It's like somebody has modeled that to her, that person. For them to feel needed and loved and desired. The only way they can get that is by saying it's not true so that someone else in their life will profusely pronounce it to try to counteract that. That denial.

[50:52] Michael: Yeah.

[50:53] Matt: And especially when we're young and we have ways of being modeled like that to us. I don't. In some sense, it's hard to help. It's hard to help. But acting any different or help but acting the same.

[51:08] Michael: Well, it's interesting because. And all this is like, you know, there's this whole thing is like. Like, what are we acting out? It's like, what are we. What are we embodying? And I think that's the part that we're all looking for. And we emulate something and. And depending on how high, kind of like we've talked about a lot is like, what we give our attention to is kind of what we emulate. If we don't emulate something that's high enough, then it's like we start to experience these sort of contradictions, you know, And I think that's where, like, the whole idea is like, you know, it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. It's this sort of idea is like, no, I've died, and I'm. I've. I'm. I'm wanting to emulate and move towards Christ. And it's like, that's sort of like, by definition is the highest thing to move towards, you know, is to be like Christ. It's like. Because you can't really say that even about Mother Teresa. Like, she was like, no, it's like, I don't even know God. You know, she's kind of. She's kind of like, I want to want to know God, you know, that kind of stuff.

[52:13] Matt: Oh, yeah. I think we talked about this a couple of episodes ago, and I looked up. It's not Mother Teresa. I misquoted that. It's Teresa of Avila.

[52:20] Michael: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right.

[52:21] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Who said, I don't want to know. I do not love God. I do not even want to love God. But I want to want to love God.

[52:31] Michael: Yeah. I think that's the part you see the. Those pious people. It's like this. It's sort of like, yeah, don't emulate me. Like, I'm. I'm in your shoes. Like, the more that you. I feel like the more that you get closer to God. It's sort of like you start. You start to kind of actually see how far away you are. Yeah. And also how close he is. It's like there's like the. Almost like a conundrum there, a paradox. It's like the shores.

[52:59] Matt: Yeah, I just kind of saw that when you said, you quoted. What verse is that? Is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

[53:07] Michael: I think it's Galatians 2:20.

[53:09] Matt: Is Paul saying that?

[53:10] Michael: Yeah, I do understand. Yeah.

[53:12] Matt: And if we kind of go back to this model, starting with Solzhenitsyn, the line between good and evil is drawn down the heart of every man. So, okay, my heart has both good and evil in it. And I can see that being pulled and tugged and spoken to and encouraged in both directions. And I think the good calls for humility and the bad calls for self justification. And so if the good calls for humility, and if we are to again sort of take this to its extreme, like, what is the ultimate expression of the good? Maybe it's ultimate humility. Because how much of me is good and how much is evil? Is it 50%? 50, 50. Well, maybe the more humble I get, the more I realize, oh, it's actually

[54:00] Michael: like 80, 20, 80, 20.

[54:02] Matt: And then the more humble I get, I go, oh, my God, it's like 90, 10. 90, 10. Totally. It's like, this is going to make a terrible burger. There's no fat in here. Just to make a ground chuck reference. Maybe the ultimate expression of that is Paul saying, actually, all of me has to go 100%. Yeah, 100% has to go. And I have to be embodied, fully consume Christ. I have to fully consume Christ's body and his blood and digest it and become fully Christ. That is the ultimate expression.

[54:38] Michael: Oh, well, that's really plain. That's good.

[54:40] Matt: And it's a project which I'm not going to complete. Yeah, but it must be that way.

[54:50] Michael: Yeah, it's like, what's the alternative?

[54:55] Matt: Well, I think the alternative is it's the opposite. There's that. I need to look up who said it because I've quoted it before. Somebody said that evil is the spirit which considers its knowledge complete. It isn't necessarily even delighting in what things that we might call evil. Evil is the arrogance that says, I know best. Evil is the arrogance that says, I am enough. It is the opposite of the humility that must come along with the engagement of good. It is the spirit that I mean, and that is the alternative. And when we act that out in our everyday lives. You see that in things like just everyday resentment and bitterness. It's like, no, I'm sufficient. I'm good enough. And so it's got to be that someone's out to get me.

[55:50] Michael: Oh, somebody else.

[55:52] Matt: It's got to be that my job is racist or unfair or misogynistic or whatever the opposite of misogynistic is. There is a word for that. Or my parents hate me or society hates me. Society's set up against me.

[56:15] Michael: Which is funny, because all those things could be. Are true, or can be true, can be true.

[56:19] Matt: But I think the ultimate expression of that is the nihilism that we talk about in the Joker. It's like, no, it's all arbitrarily bad. It's all arbitrarily wrong and indifferent. And that's Cain. That's Cain trying to. And wanting to take revenge against God himself. My problems are because you set things up this way. You set up reality this way.

[56:46] Michael: I mean, it also hits closer to home, too, in that sense. It's sort of like, you know, as a father and a husband, too, it's like, I can see, like, how my kids or my wife have failed me and not my role in that, too. Sort of like, oh, well, Allison does this, this, and this, and it's that way. It's like, okay, well, how am I complicit in that? It's like, I have a role in this. And I think that's harder to face. It's easier to say how somebody else has failed you rather than how your role in that is also a part of that.

[57:27] Matt: Well, it's not even just that it's easier. It's like. It's explanatory.

[57:31] Michael: Oh, true.

[57:31] Matt: You know, well, if you hadn't done these things, then I wouldn't have been in the position to fail the way that I did.

[57:37] Michael: Exactly.

[57:38] Matt: People use this all the time. We use this ourselves all the time. And again, the way out of that is humility.

[57:46] Michael: Yeah. It's like, oh, I didn't mean it that way. It's like, okay, well, how did you mean it? You know, it's like. And then you try to explain, like, how you mean you meant it. And we always explain things in the most in the best light that makes us look better rather than be like, oh, no, I did that, and I said that. And actually, maybe I did have a little bit of other in there, but there's also some other stuff in there that was like, I'm trying to make Myself look good in this, rather than, like, I was actually kind of manipulative

[58:21] Matt: or, you know, well, and to take ultimate responsibility. I think Solzhenitsyn concludes that the ultimate position we should adopt is that every single person is responsible, like every individual is responsible for everything that happens in the world. That's sort of the full tilt humility. Sort of like Paul's the full tilt. You know, I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The full tilt humility is. No. Not only was my contribution to this going bad explanatory of why it's bad, it's ultimately explanatory. It's flipping it because you might say, well, I wouldn't have been this way had you not put me in the position. It's flipping that and saying, actually, neither of us would be in this position hadn't I not done this, this, and this. And to take full responsibility for that and say, because. And again, that's again, fleshing out the ultimate expression of the good. Because that's exactly what Christ did. Christ came and said, I take ultimate responsibility. What did Christ do that he was taking responsibility for? How did he participate in the thing that needed to be taken responsibility for? He didn't. He did zero of it. The sin of humanity. He did zero. And yet he comes and says, I take full responsibility. And I think Solzhenitsyn figures this out. And that's super hard to swallow, though, right? Because in our everyday lives, our conversations with loved ones and romantic partners and children, think of a single situation in which you would like to say, I take full responsibility for this.

[60:18] Michael: Totally.

[60:19] Matt: Yeah. Like, I can barely get the words out. I'm like, but you.

[60:26] Michael: But you played a role in this.

[60:28] Matt: Yeah, right. I mean, in a sense, it's asking an impossible thing. None of us can do that. Which is why we are so desperately in need of Christ and why, I think if you want to. If you want your heart to grow three sizes, I think you must ultimately find yourself at the foot of the cross saying, I couldn't do it. I couldn't utter the words. I knew I should. I couldn't, couldn't be loving Even though I fully intended to. Fully intended to. And the time came and I was hateful.

[61:17] Michael: Dude.

[61:18] Matt: Yeah. What is that? I don't know. I don't understand my own heart. But I. But you, Christ, do. And you came and did the very thing that I'm. You did the very thing that I attempted to do on such a small scale myself, and you did it on the ultimate scale with Zero culpability in the crime. And so I bow here and believe that you told me you did that for this exact situation that I'm incapable of solving. And I accept. And I think that's the. I was kind of thinking the other day about, like, what is it? How do you become a Christian?

[62:11] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[62:13] Matt: There was a point at which I think I became a Christian. You know, I was at a summer camp. I was young. I sort of said a prayer wasn't all that visceral. But these days, it's like going through that thought experiment or that conversation that we just had, it's like finding myself at the foot of the cross and saying, I can't do this. I see it more clearly than ever, and I can't do it in Christ. You did it, and you were telling me you offer it to me, and I don't understand that. I don't understand what that means. I just know that I want it. And you're saying I can have it. All I can do because I can't understand it is just say yes, which is the ultimate opposite of Cain inviting the spirit of evil in to consummate with him. It's like, I cannot find anything better in my life to say yes to than that. And I think. I'm so much more in touch with that prayer that I said some words around when I was 7 or 8. Now when I'm 44, you should put.

[63:38] Michael: We should put that thing I sent you in the notes about that one guy, he was talking to the scientists. It's like, you know, have you seen energy or gravity? But it's explanatory power is. Is huge.

[63:54] Matt: Was that John Lennox?

[63:55] Michael: John Lennox? There you go. Yeah. And I thought that was such a great. Like, I was like, wow, that's. That's exactly he put the words to. Like, how. Like. Like how I explain Christ to people is like. Is the. That exact way is like the explanatory. The explanatory ability of. Of the cross convinces me, like, there's nothing that explains the world around me more clearly than Jesus and the cross.

[64:27] Matt: Like.

[64:28] Michael: Like, it's funny because, like, for me, it's the logic of it that is. Like, I. I just cannot escape because of its explanatory power, you know, because if I. If I apply any other system, it falls apart. Like, I have to start plugging holes really quickly, you know, and it's like, you know, and there's this part too. It's like somehow I'm good enough or clever enough to figure this Out. And Jesus says, you're not. And I feel like that's the part of the whole shores thing, is like, oh, you think you're clever enough to figure this out? It's like at the end of the road, it's like you have to say, like, I'm not. You know, the whole thing with the shores is like, as my island of knowledge expands, so the shores of my ignorance. It's like inherent in the paradigm paradox. You cannot figure this out.

[65:20] Matt: Right. The more. The more you try, the further away you get.

[65:24] Michael: Yeah. And I think that's where Jesus says, like, basically, you're right, Michael. And I'm like, oh, what do I do? He's like, that's why I'm here.

[65:36] Matt: Yeah.

[65:36] Michael: And I'm like, oh, oh, okay. That makes sense to me. You know, it's like he's like, because something. Something has to come to me because I'm stuck in that paradox. If it doesn't come to me, there's no way out of the paradox. And that's the whole story of Jesus. Like, he comes. God comes to man. That's the only way out. Outside of that is like you're growing your island of knowledge. And you can be ignorant of the shores, but it's going to become very obvious as you. As you become more and more confident in your shore, in your. In your island.

[66:10] Matt: Yeah. Especially as you get older.

[66:12] Michael: Totally.

[66:13] Matt: You start realizing, I don't have an ounce of control over anything.

[66:18] Michael: Totally. Kids, do what I told you to do. Why aren't you doing what I told you to do? I told you to do that. Oh, you don't have control.

[66:24] Matt: Oh.

[66:26] Michael: Or your business or your wife or your kid.

[66:29] Matt: I was listening to somebody talking recently. They were talking about how farmers want crops to grow, but they don't have the ability to make crops grow. They can water the ground. They can put water on the ground. Maybe fertilizer, maybe, you know, but they can't make shit grow. I thought, that's super profound. Yeah. We can't create life. We might have some ability to steward it, some ability to, like, help the conditions for its thriving, but we can't make it, you know, and it's the same with. It's the same with starting a business. You can't make anybody buy your. Except at gunpoint, you know, which is. That's communism. You can't make it. You might have some ability to. To affect the conditions for thriving, but you can't make it grow.

[67:37] Michael: That's so fascinating. I mean, even just like. Like, even with we just laid out. Part of me ask the question is like, why does the devil even matter? You know, I mean, because you can already see the problem without the devil, you know, without that spirit, that archetype. And it's. It's interesting that that archetype, the devil, however you want to look at it, is introduced like there's actually an outside influence in all of this, you know, And I think that's the interesting thing, too, is like. Is like the materialist viewpoint falls apart really quickly.

[68:23] Matt: Say more about that.

[68:26] Michael: Well, anybody who's a materialist always smuggles in something else. So it's like, if you're a materialist, then it's just basically, you have a problem with consciousness. Like, consciousness is not something you can explain by just neurons and brain activity and that kind of stuff. It's like you just. You kind of have to just jump to sort of like. And where you have consciousness, you know, like a real material. So, like, it's like, no. And Sam tries to do this, which is basically like, I'm a. I'm a product of all my genetics and brain chemistry, and I don't really. There's. There's no real. There's no here here. It's all just material working.

[69:08] Matt: So like some kind of hallucination.

[69:10] Michael: Yeah.

[69:11] Matt: And even misfiring of your optical cortex that makes you think you have individuality.

[69:16] Michael: And it's an illusion that it's a. It's a useful fiction, this illusion of consciousness. But if you're a true materialist, it's like you can't make that leap because you're actually making a leap to consciousness, because you're actually saying there's something beyond the material. And I don't know if that's clear enough to me, that's clear enough to make that point, but we can go further. But I don't know how far you want to go with it.

[69:48] Matt: Maybe just a minute more. Or three. Or three. Or five.

[69:53] Michael: It's our podcast. We can go whatever, three hours.

[69:57] Matt: I mean, I think the materialist standpoint is there is nothing right. But the laws of physics and the matter which it controls. And so everything that happens is random. Maybe random isn't the biggest, the perfect word. Here it is without aim or purpose. It has to be without aim or purpose because there's nothing to give it aim and purpose. There's nothing to be purpose. There isn't anyone who can be purposeful in this model. Okay.

[70:30] Michael: And consciousness gives us the illusion of aim or purpose. Would be a materialist. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[70:35] Matt: Okay, but. But ultimately it's only an illusion.

[70:38] Michael: Totally.

[70:40] Matt: Which I experience in my head has nothing to do with reality, actually. Yeah, yeah. And so you introduce the concept of natural selection, I suppose, to try to explain things. Well, it is better for the survival of the species that we, let's say, have what we might call the spirit that you see, a spirit of celebration that you see in the SpaceX employees when they catch the booster on the chopsticks that creates the conditions in which people are going to go home and have sex. Right. What it doesn't explain, I think, is what is obviously its opposite. We spend an hour laying this out. There is obviously something in us which wants destruction, destruction of self, destruction of others, that wants to be self sufficient and self justified and causes genocides, causes suicide, causes, you know, whatever we are dealing with culturally that has ended up in plummeting birth rates. What is that? That's obviously not survival of the fittest. It's obviously not natural selection. And you might say, well, but it's on some grand scale that we can't understand, which kind of comes back to the aimless purposelessness of it. Well, if it's without aim and purpose, and you're saying that the explanation for it, you're appealing to something outside of our understanding. You kind of can't make those two claims at the same time. It's like there's no need for the spirit of good and the spirit of evil in a materialist framework.

[72:36] Michael: Totally.

[72:37] Matt: Because there can't be those things. And yet there is no one who does not no one that I've found who is willing to say what happened in Nazi Germany was neither good nor evil, what happened in Maoist China, what happened in Soviet Republic, what happened at

[73:00] Michael: Columbine, or if they do, they actually do the very thing themselves because they point that onto somebody else.

[73:07] Matt: Yeah. And the opposite. I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't have some idea of what would be good for the country politically or what would be good for your community. Even the people who say we should defund the police, they are appealing to some idea of what is better. And in a materialist framework, there is no such thing as better. There's only indifference to the aimless purposelessness of the universe.

[73:40] Michael: Well, it's like, even if you take the statement too, it's like, well then in that space a lot of existentialists do. This is like you create your own purpose. But even when you we. That's the part is like that's the hard thing is like a materialist always ends up smuggling something in. Well, you create your own purpose. It's like, well, right there you just, you just identified agency. You know, you just identified that there is something that you have that's not material. Because like, if it's just material, then that would, it would just be chemistry and biology and neurons and all that kind of stuff.

[74:15] Matt: Right.

[74:16] Michael: It's like. But you're. All of a sudden, you're, you're, you're, you're smuggling in this idea of purpose, and you just can't do that.

[74:22] Matt: When I suppose the materialist would say to us that we are smuggling in the idea of God.

[74:27] Michael: Well, I don't think that. I think that's a very. We're actually saying the exact opposite of what a materialist says. Like, we're not, we're saying is like

[74:34] Matt: starting from a different precedent.

[74:36] Michael: Exactly. But it's not all material. There's actually is purpose. And we're saying that the very criteria for purpose, which is something outside of the system making itself known inside the system, which is the only way that you can have purpose, that that actually happened. And I think that's, that's the whole, that's the whole difference. That's what, that's what differentiates Christianity from every other religion.

[75:02] Matt: Well, maybe here's another good definition for the devil. The devil is inside the system saying, I am the purpose totally. It is my purpose and mine alone. But you can't have that. I mean, you can, I guess, but if you try, the whole thing dies. It's like the black sludge and fern gully just takes over everything in the system. Once you say I am the purpose

[75:27] Michael: totally, it's becoming more and more clear to me, the necessity and the logic of Jesus coming into the world and that no other thing, no other ideology or religion even touches that which is so amazing. It really is.

[75:53] Matt: Because I think there's a way in which I hear you say that and I say, what are you talking about? Logic? What are you talking about? Christ dying on the cross makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me.

[76:06] Michael: No.

[76:08] Matt: But what does John say Christ was?

[76:13] Michael: Logos. Yeah.

[76:15] Matt: He says he was the logic who. By which all things that were created were created. Which is to go back to the definition of truth. Truth is that you conform yourself to reality. Christ is the logic by which you conform yourself to reality totally. And that is why what you said makes perfect sense. But there's a standpoint at which I find myself all the time. I'm like, what are we talking about? That makes sense. But it's all there.

[76:48] Michael: Totally.

[76:48] Matt: And you go look at it and you go, oh, right. I thought logic was my own ability to, you know, add equations together and observe cause and effect and gain control and power over my body and my environment. And Christ says, no, I am logic, and you only do what you do by conforming yourself to me.

[77:20] Michael: I mean, it's a crazy thing that I don't understand, like, why most. By more and more people don't understand this. Like, good old. And you'll. You'll have to look him up, but he's a mathematician that basically said that you cannot prove anything within the system. And what's his name? Godel. G O D. Girdle. Girdle.

[77:38] Matt: That's the way I've heard it pronounced. Yeah. The incompleteness theorem. Yeah.

[77:42] Michael: And it's just like.

[77:43] Matt: And there's a great Veritasium episode.

[77:45] Michael: It's a really.

[77:46] Matt: Let's put that in.

[77:47] Michael: I want to watch it, too.

[77:48] Matt: Yeah, we should put that in the show notes. Yeah. He mathematically proved that math can never explain itself itself. There's always something that has to exist outside of it in order for it to make sense.

[78:05] Michael: And that's just crazy. Like, it just like. That's the thing that. This keeps baffling me. The more I scratch all these things, like, the logic of Christianity just, like, blows me away.

[78:16] Matt: Yeah. It's unbelievable.

[78:17] Michael: Yeah.

[78:18] Matt: I mean, we say things like that, right? It's unbelievable.

[78:21] Michael: Yeah.

[78:22] Matt: When you see something amazing, you're like, God, that was unbelievable. Did you see what that guy did? But I think with Christ, it literally is, in a sense, unbelievable. It's like we struggle to believe it. It's not. Oh, my God, that's unbelievable. I mean, it is sometimes, but I think there's other times where we're like, wait, do I believe this? It almost defies belief. And yet the more you look at it, the more you fix your eyes on it, the more you see. This is the most perfect thing that I've ever beheld. This is the most perfect explanation for everything that I see around me and that I see in my own heart. And everything seems to be wrapped up in it. I can't find anything that it doesn't touch. And that's another thing that John says at the beginning of his book, is that the light has made itself known to man. Everything, literally everything that I see, I only see because of that light.

[79:21] Michael: Or even, like in Romans, where it talks about, like, you know, like, oh, shoot, I'm gonna screw it up. Oh. Since the beginning of time, God's invisible qualities and divine nature have been clearly seen by what has been made so that man was without excuse. And so there's something about, like, God's divine qualities are, like, embedded in nature. And that's something that's just like. Like, so baffled me. And it's like. And there's this part that, you know, that's why I feel like the logic of Christ makes. Makes so much sense to me, is like something outside of the system came into the system to demonstrate itself. But it also tells you the truth that you are insufficient. And it's like, oh, of course, because I feel insufficient. I am insufficient.

[80:15] Matt: It's like, you're like, wait, I feel that way.

[80:18] Michael: And it's like, how did you know? Yeah, exactly. It's basically selling you. It's like, yes, and that's true. It's like, but here's my promise to you. You fix your eyes on me. You accept me. You come through me.

[80:29] Matt: My grace is sufficient.

[80:30] Michael: My grace is. And I will bring you into that space. Yeah, and it's like. That's the part where it's like, I will bring you into that space. It's like, you're not smart enough. You're not talented enough. It's like. It's like, I will bring you into that space. And that's. That's the only way that it can happen. It can't happen any other way.

[80:50] Matt: I mentioned this a couple of episodes ago, and I failed to remember who I learned this from. It was very recent, and I want to come back to it because it's kind of a new concept to me. But somebody taught me the point that Adam was the first man, and we are all descended of Adam. Adam sinned and fell and was ejected from the Garden of Eden. We're all descended of him. We were all born of the first man. And then Christ came and he said, you have to be born again. What does that mean? He's offering us to be born of a different lineage, to be born in spirit of a. Of a different first man, of the second man, in a sense, the second man who never sinned, who did not fall. We are being offered in Christ through the cross the opportunity to be pulled out of our natural lineage and to be born into the kingdom of God.

[81:58] Michael: It's pretty trippy. It also, God, we're gonna probably stop, but the question I have after that is like. It's like, why. Why not this from the very beginning? Because, like, you look at the Israelites, like, they experience the promise of that and that there are tools that demonstrate that, you know, the prophets and kings and there's different things that God puts a spirit on throughout the Old Testament. And the Jews, like, demonstrate the promise of the Christ and then the Christ comes. It's like, why don't you just do that at the beginning? Like, Adam shows up.

[82:33] Matt: Well, look at it from God's perspective. There is no beginning and end to God.

[82:38] Michael: Yeah, true.

[82:39] Matt: So I don't think God asks questions about timing.

[82:43] Michael: I know, I asked the question.

[82:44] Matt: I know. Hey, I ask the questions here.

[82:47] Michael: Totally.

[82:49] Matt: I mean, I think he did. I think he did do it from the beginning.

[82:53] Michael: But even you think about even the, the Israelites, like the Jews, like, like the logic was still present there. Like, yes, we need you to enter the world. Like, that was the promise. And they're basically saying, yes, we need you to come to us.

[83:08] Matt: Yeah.

[83:09] Michael: And all the sacrifices were saying, like, we are insufficient to go to you, you know, and so they lived on the promise of the Christ and then we get to live in the fruit of the Christ.

[83:29] Matt: I mean, I think ultimately that's in a sense, only an illusion of our. Illusion is the right word. It's our perspective. Sort of like we are. We're living in a 2D world and we're talking about 3D world things.

[83:52] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[83:56] Matt: Somebody's. You know, it says in the Bible that when Christ was crucified and he died and he went into the tomb, his body went into the tomb, that he descended into hell, and there he ministered to the people in hell. And somebody, I heard somebody pointing out that hell is outside of time. Which means that at the point that Christ went to hell and ministered to the people of hell, it was all of the people who will have ever been in hell. Our concept of christ dying in 33 AD and we think of that as in the past. And if I go to hell, I'll go to hell in the future. Hell's outside of time. So you go to hell, you're there, Christ went there. Which means that everyone who was in hell experienced Christ. And then it says, and this was lost on me until fairly recently, that when he broke out, he took a bunch of people with him out of hell. And not only did Christ rise from the dead, a bunch of other people rose from the dead. I don't ever hear that being talked about, but that's in the gospel, which kind of makes sense. It's sort of just like the aftershock of that miracle, it's like it rippled through all these other people.

[85:13] Michael: Yeah, well, now you're messing me up because, like, this is a whole nother thing that I, I. I can't grab. I can't. I don't. I can't grasp my head. Grasp my head. Grasp whatever.

[85:25] Matt: Wrap.

[85:26] Michael: Wrap my head. Thank you. Wrap my head around heaven and hell. Like, that's something I don't understand.

[85:31] Matt: That's kind of funny. You can't grasp your head, but you can grasp an idea. But you can also wrap your head around something as well as wrap your hand around something both are grasping.

[85:44] Michael: Yeah. Interesting.

[85:46] Matt: Yeah.

[85:46] Michael: We'll have to save this. This topic for another time because I can't go there right now.

[85:50] Matt: Yeah, we got cigars to smoke. It's time to end.

[85:53] Michael: Well, this is fun. I don't even want to end with our. I don't even want to end with any conclusions on what we started this podcast with, because I feel like it takes away from about where. Where we ended up.

[86:02] Matt: Well, in that case, we'll just say farewell.

[86:06] Michael: Farewell. Thanks for coming to the show. Yeah. Cheers.

[86:10] Matt: Cheers.

[86:11] Michael: Love you guys.

[86:12] Matt: Love you out there.

[86:16] Michael: Oh, my gosh. What the. That was so good. I don't care if anybody else ate anything out. I got a whole shit ton out of that.

[86:24] Matt: That was fun.

[86:25] Michael: That was fun. I think you got those.

[86:35] Matt: Amen.

[86:37] Michael: Amen. Hallelujah.