Bankrupt on Both Sides

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers.

[0:22] Michael: All right, all right.

[0:24] Matt: Here we are.

[0:26] Michael: To those shores.

[0:27] Matt: Shores. And to Medici.

[0:29] Michael: Yeah.

[0:30] Matt: Turn medicine. Medici can start drinking next year. It's pretty crazy, man. 20 years.

[0:37] Michael: 20 years.

[0:38] Matt: How does that feel?

[0:43] Michael: Complicated.

[0:44] Matt: Really?

[0:46] Michael: Yeah. I mean, there's. There's so many joys and heartbreak and frustration and overcoming and relationships that were amazing. Relationships that were hard. You know, getting to meet, like, so much of the community in Austin through the coffee shops and having my kids grow up in the coffee shops, you know?

[1:17] Matt: Yeah.

[1:17] Michael: Navigating this whole world with Allison and being business owners and parents.

[1:23] Matt: And Allison posted a picture to Instagram of you and her and Elia, which was like, your whole family.

[1:29] Michael: Then Austin was in her belly at that point.

[1:33] Matt: Okay.

[1:34] Michael: Yeah. So we opened in September 2, 2006, and Austin was born April 13. It was April 2 of 2007.

[1:43] Matt: That's awesome.

[1:44] Michael: Yeah. So it's wild, man. I mean, you know, it's like, when I look back on it, it's really. I would have to say that the thing that defines pretty much the entire existence of it is relationships. I've hired over a couple thousand baristas.

[2:06] Matt: Oh, my gosh.

[2:07] Michael: Yeah. I mean, it's like over a thousand. But it might even be pushing further than that. But I know I can safely say that. Know how many people we've served over,

[2:17] Matt: you know, do you have any idea how many customers you've served in 20 years?

[2:20] Michael: God, I don't even know. Like, maybe a million.

[2:24] Matt: A million?

[2:24] Michael: Yeah. Especially, like, south by. You know, when we.

[2:27] Matt: Right.

[2:28] Michael: Just all these people from all over the world coming through.

[2:31] Matt: And have y' all been participating in south by the last couple years?

[2:35] Michael: Not really. We have South. Our South Lamar store is involved with the film festival.

[2:40] Matt: Part of it. Okay. I guess not so much now that you don't have Austonians. So you're not downtown. Yeah.

[2:45] Michael: Or eighth in Congress. And Second Congress shops were heavily a part of South By.

[2:49] Matt: But, yeah.

[2:51] Michael: After Covid, we had to shut those guys down.

[2:53] Matt: Right.

[2:55] Michael: That's what me. It's like. That's the heart. There's, like, a lot of heartbreak in there, too. And, you know, having to close, like, four stores.

[3:01] Matt: Yeah.

[3:03] Michael: You know, and move people around to different stores and navigate all that.

[3:09] Matt: It's pretty amazing. I mean, to think that just say a million people. A million people have tasted of your idea, have interacted with it.

[3:23] Michael: That's interesting.

[3:24] Matt: That's incredible.

[3:25] Michael: Yeah.

[3:26] Matt: And it's meant something, you know, different to every single one of them. I mean, you know, I know, I know. Personal stories of people who have will say that some of their most life changing moments happened at Medici. And you know, you go, you have the whole spectrum from that to the person who just came in one time and never came back. And that's incredible.

[3:51] Michael: It is, yeah. Or like, you know, fun story is like the bass from. From Weezer. Every time they come into Austin and play a show, he'd come down to our second Congress. Really?

[4:04] Matt: Yeah.

[4:04] Michael: It's like. So I got to know him over the years, you know, that's amazing. Have conversations with them and stuff like that. And you know, they're say band director. What is manager or whatever. He come in with them too. And I mean, just. There's just so many stories like that. It's just insane.

[4:20] Matt: Were you into Weezer in high school?

[4:22] Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my sweater. Pull the strand As I walk away

[4:29] Matt: As I walk away.

[4:32] Michael: I even sang that in a way that you could understand it. I know, it's impressive.

[4:35] Matt: That's pretty cool that you have met a member of that band.

[4:39] Michael: Yeah, totally. And then when our second congress, he came down to our eighth in Congress store because we had opened for just a little bit after 2nd Congress was out.

[4:50] Matt: But I feel like it's always the bass player who's the coffee snob in the band.

[4:55] Michael: Something with that. That's interesting. I'd love to do like a poll on that.

[5:03] Matt: Like our friend Sean, who's. I've been in a number of bands with him. He's like. He like, brings coffee on the road, grinds it himself and you know, it's like, I'm not drinking crap.

[5:14] Michael: This other swill. Yeah.

[5:18] Matt: Well, that's quite an accomplishment. 20 years. That's amazing. I mean, you are a part of the fabric in Austin. Of Austin. In the history of Austin.

[5:26] Michael: Yeah.

[5:26] Matt: Pretty incredible. And seeing that picture of you and Allison 20 years ago, you know, both of you in your early mid-20s, just started starting a family and having the audacity to take on that project. Just thinking about young you going out and finding the funding and the contractors and the solution, doing so much of the work yourself to renovate that original building in Clarksville and successfully launching it and growing it with all of the successes and pains and tragedies too, that have happened along that time. It's just an incredible story. Cheers to. Cheers to that and cheers to y'.

[6:05] Michael: All. Totally. Yeah, that's.

[6:06] Matt: Happy 20th birthday.

[6:08] Michael: Thanks, man.

[6:11] Matt: You can be 22 for. Also 20 also for the day.

[6:15] Michael: Nice.

[6:16] Matt: Yeah.

[6:16] Michael: Oh, I wouldn't. I wouldn't think I want to go back ever to my 20s again. Yeah.

[6:22] Matt: You wouldn't?

[6:23] Michael: No. I like where I'm at right now. Yeah. Yeah. But it is kind of interesting, though. It's like when you. When you start something, you don't really know what the costs are.

[6:36] Matt: Right.

[6:37] Michael: You know, it's like.

[6:38] Matt: Which is probably a good thing, because if you did, you might not have done it.

[6:43] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[6:44] Matt: Which is that. That seems to be almost true about everything. If you knew the cost ahead of time, you wouldn't do it.

[6:53] Michael: Yeah.

[6:54] Matt: I mean, like, marriage is this way. That's why we treat the wedding vowel, why we say repeat after me. Because it's like, you don't know what you're getting into. You don't understand this.

[7:07] Michael: Yeah.

[7:07] Matt: The only way to understand it is to do it. But if you knew the cost, then you. You might not. You might say, eh. Like a lot of young people are these days saying, yeah, I'll pass.

[7:22] Michael: That's really sad. Like, It's like, it does cost a lot to have to start a business or to start a family or to get married. But I think that's the part is like. Is like, there's something that you cannot explain about what you gain from. From that cost. You know, it's like, oh, wow. I don't think I'd ever want to start a business if it is that hard, you know, but it's like, you. You can't. You can't get that any other way.

[8:00] Matt: Like.

[8:00] Michael: Yeah, there's something like, I don't know, valuable in it that.

[8:09] Matt: Well, maybe that's kind of what we're wanting to talk about tonight, the cost of life. Like, what is the cost of this project that we're engaged in? And, you know, Peterson would probably say, well, it's death. The cost of life is death. He always says, you're all in. You know, you're all in. There's no way to change that. And we're all gonna die.

[8:32] Michael: Yeah.

[8:33] Matt: That's the cost we pay for life is death. But it reminds me of this quote from CS Lewis in the Four Loves where he talks about how to love anything at all is to be vulnerable. Basically, love something, and your heart is surely going to be wrung, if not broken. And the only way to protect your heart from being broken is to protect it. And in protecting it, you put it in essentially, like a coffin, and it can't be heard anymore. It's unbreakable, but you have no connection with anything. It seems like, yeah, you don't start a business, well, your heart's gonna get broken a bunch of times. Cause the first thing that you're gonna discover is that your idea wasn't as good as you thought it was. And it only resonated with you and not all the people you hoped would give. Then you have to refine it and then the people don't come and you refine it. And all of a sudden one day you have a killer day and you're like, oh yeah, I made it. And then inexplicably the next day it's just crickets, it's a slog. And you kind of have to make yourself vulnerable to do it. It's the same with relationships and the same with children. Like learning how to be a parent. It's going to break your heart the whole time. I had this experience with my, my oldest teenager who's now a senior and she's on the cheer team. And so I was at this game watching her cheer last week and at the beginning, I guess it was the first game, so the beginning they were announcing the names of all the seniors and they announced her name. And I just had this, I was just overcome with this kind of. Pride that had a deep grief in it, like, oh, right, she's leaving. This whole 18 year story journey that we've been on is about to change dramatically. I don't know what she's going to do next exactly, but she's moving off into adulthood and moving off on her own. And I've already experienced this once with my oldest, but I just thought, I just immediately like my mind rewind. I felt like the dad in the Father or the Bride. I'm just imagining my oldest daughter as the young three year old, four year old version of herself. And just how much I love to play with her and hold her and spin her around and throw her up in the air. And it's like now it's other people throwing her up in the air on the cheer team. And she's not, she isn't a little girl anymore. She's a woman and she's going away and felt so sad about that, but also so happy because that's the intent. You know, what is it? Another thing Peterson says is that the good mother fails. And I think there's, we don't have to get super into that. But I think there's a reason that he says the mother, the good mother fails. But you know, I think it's that way of both parents to some extent, because the way you succeed is for them to move away from you. It's like you fail to keep them close. Actually, you choose not to keep them close.

[11:47] Michael: And that was like your whole job at the very beginning.

[11:50] Matt: The whole job at the beginning. Yeah.

[11:51] Michael: Keep them close and protect them.

[11:53] Matt: Yes. They don't die. And now it's like you do your job well, you work yourself out of a job, you know, in a way. And that's worth celebrating and also worth, in a sense, mourning, which goes back to the cost of life is death, whatever that was through all the stages, has to die so that she can become the next version of herself. And as a parent, I have to let that die as well. And I can be nostalgic for it and reminiscent of it and tell her how much I loved raising her and how much I enjoyed being around her all of these years and how much I'm gonna miss her. But also to encourage her out the door and say, go live a life.

[12:40] Michael: Yeah. You kind of got me kind of stuck on that. That. That part of like. Like, what does it mean not to go live your life? Like, to like to not invest in something. And I think it's easy to know. It's easy to see, like, why people don't. Because the way you said it was like, you know, when you invest in anything, your heart is going to be broken.

[13:11] Matt: Yeah.

[13:11] Michael: And I mean, you could even like, say this about the stock market. It's like, you invest in a company and then it goes down. You're like, oh, I want it to go up forever, you know, and like, you know, a rarity where you get it at the right time or whatever, and it just goes up and you're like, oh, wow, I'm so smart. And then you're quickly find out when you make another investment or something like that. You're like, you're not that smart. Yeah, I felt that way with the. When we first got in the. The crypto, you're like, oh, man, I'm so badass.

[13:41] Matt: Yeah.

[13:42] Michael: And then got my. Sent it to me. Yeah.

[13:46] Matt: Well, you know, when we were kind of batting around ideas for what we were going to address in this conversation tonight, the. The sort of central question I think that I took away from that was, how is it that we're supposed to live? Because there's this interesting effect that I've seen happen a number of times in my life now that I've lived a decent amount of time. A decent number of decades.

[14:10] Michael: Four and a half decades.

[14:11] Matt: Yeah. Which is that it's kind of like the stock thing. It's like, you make a good investment, the stock goes up, euphoria. You feel great, and you think how smart I am, how good I am, and then you try to do it again and get your ass handed to you. You know, and there's been other situations in my life where, you know, it's like, when things are going well, you think you know why they're going well, and you think you understand and you have control over it. And you talk to a friend or a family member or somebody on the street or whatever and things aren't going well for them, and you think, well, I'll give them advice because I know how to make things go well. My life's going great.

[14:49] Michael: Yeah.

[14:50] Matt: You know, and so you're like, well, here's what you're doing wrong, and here's what you're doing wrong, and here's what you should do. And, you know, what you're struggling with doesn't have to be that hard. You just need to approach it. It's a different way.

[14:59] Michael: Be more disciplined and wake up at 5 and make your bed and.

[15:02] Matt: Yeah, right. And then all of a sudden, things turn on you in your own life and they start not going well, and you start taking your own advice and it doesn't fix anything.

[15:15] Michael: Yeah.

[15:16] Matt: And you think, wait a second. I don't think I actually know how to do this. What I thought I should do is not working. So how is it that we're supposed to live when, well, we don't know what we're doing? And I think the truth is that nobody knows what they're doing. The people who tell you they know what they're doing, I'm not going to say they're lying. I think that they're deluded by their own. Their own false prophet of competence because. And I think I know that because I've been there. You and I, we talk about this all the time, that it's much easier to say why something failed than it is to say why something succeed. It's very, very difficult to say why something succeeded.

[16:19] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't know where to go with that. Because there's something in that that's just like. It's like, what do you do with that? Because if you're in a season of, like, you know, things are really moving your way, it's really hard to see that how much of it is actually you're doing. And you kind of start to attribute almost everything to, like, oh, I was so smart. I did this right ad I was really diligent in going after all these things.

[16:57] Matt: Which is so funny because we're totally quick to take credit for the things that are going well in our life. But as soon as things don't go well, we're like, well, if this had been different or that had been different or this person had behaved in this other way, we act like it's totally out of our control. And I think the truth is that we don't know what we're doing. But we have to do something anyway. And much less is under our control than we would like to believe when things are going well. And also, there is more under our control and things are going bad than we would like to believe. So we have this simultaneous problem. So how do you live your life? I don't know. I have to try something. I don't know how to account for when I'm doing the right thing versus the wrong thing. And I constantly am taking credit where credit is not due and assigning credit where it's not due as well. So how do I align myself inside of that conundrum? And how do I. What is the question? How do I align myself with reality in such a way that things go, what. What's the goal? Like, I might say, as well as they could go, well, what does that mean? You know, what's that famous parable about the man whose son falls down and he breaks his leg? And the neighbor's like, oh, that's such a pity.

[18:21] Michael: And he's like, I seen with that earlier.

[18:22] Matt: And he's like, maybe. And then I can't remember the sequence, but something else happens because of that. And he gets a big blessing in his life. And they're like, oh, you're so lucky. You're so blessed. He goes, maybe. And then because that blessing, something terrible happens. And it's like there seems to be this almost. It's like, if things are going bad, just wait. If things are going good, just wait.

[18:46] Michael: Yeah, it's like, what is that? I mean, there's almost something kind of natural in that sense of sort of like, you know, maybe it's like the same idea of, like, working out or something like that. It's like you. You know, you work out and, you know, you kind of see this sort of benefit from. From doing that. And, you know, it's like, okay, well, then I got the benefit, so now I stop, you know, and then everything kind of goes to your body kind of goes to. You know, it's like, okay, well, then I'll work out again. And it's like, if you feel this sort of, like, feedback, and I think there's something also with that is kind of the point I'm kind of getting to is like, there are certain things that we do that we do get that positive feedback from. Like, in running a business, there's certain principles that are there that if you follow these principles, generally speaking, it's going to be okay. But there's so many factors outside of that that it's like, you can do everything correctly and it still go to shit.

[19:55] Matt: Yeah.

[19:56] Michael: But the thing is, is like, if you're gonna. If, if. But if you're going to succeed, you still need to do those principles, you know?

[20:02] Matt: Right. They aren't enough, but they're necessary.

[20:04] Michael: They're necessary. Yeah. So it's like the whole idea of, like, well, like, it kind of like, kind of feel like where we're heading is sort of like, well, shit, what do I do if, like, you know. You know, everything's just gonna go to shit anyways or whatever. It's like, well, no, there's actually things that you do in your life that. That are disciplines, that are healthy and that are good, but there's no guarantee of an outcome. But you can't have an outcome without the discipline. Because you see that with people who get rich really quickly. It's like, usually that sends them into a spiral.

[20:35] Matt: It's not a blessing.

[20:35] Michael: It's not a blessing at all. So there's something about. I mean, I think that's kind of like in the Bible where it talks about to fear God. It's sort of like, okay, no matter what's going on in your life, whether you're receiving a blessing or going through a hardship, it's like, it's like to fear God is something that is sort of like the. The stabilizer of it all. It's like. And part of it is. Is like, I'm not the originator of this. It's basically the confession of it, you know, But. But yeah, it's like, how. How do you. It's like, like, for. For us to have made it 20 years, like, there's plenty of times, or Medici should not exist.

[21:16] Matt: Yeah.

[21:17] Michael: You know, it's like, was it because I was such a good business person and that. That I got through it? Now, after looking back on 20 years, it's like, I can't necessarily say. I think there was, like, things I did that were. That were smart and wise, you know, but I don't know if I can contribute that to us staying 20 years. 20 years, right. Yeah. What is it? I mean, because like. I mean, do you kind of. Do you feel that sort of idea? Like there's. There are things that you can do and there's sort of disciplines that you have that lead to success, but it doesn't determine also how you define success too.

[22:01] Matt: Well, I guess that's why I sort of terminated my question on that question. Like, what is it that we are. What's the goal here? How do you live your life such that. Insert what success? I don't know what success is. Money. That's not success. Because money without relationships is poison. Relationships. Maybe that's a better answer. I don't know. I mean, if you could say, here's my idea of like, living a good life, I can tell you one thing that many other people who have answered that question have experienced in their pursuit of that answer that I would definitely not include in my answer. So all of the apostles, for example, I think that they believed with 100% certainty that they were living a good life, the best life. Almost all of them died horrific deaths. Paul was beheaded. Peter was hung upside down,

[23:22] Michael: killed. Boiled. Stab.

[23:24] Matt: Yeah, I think. I think John was boiled alive once and didn't die.

[23:29] Michael: Yeah, there's a lot of pocket or like, a lot of.

[23:31] Matt: But it's like, I'm never going to include that in my. It's like, hey, you know, I'm living so that this and this occur. You know, I would never include boiled alive or beheading in that list. Right. But it does kind of seem like there is something to be learned from that. Not that you should want those things, but I think there's kind of this principle of inversion in the Gospel, at least as I see it. I mean, so many things go the opposite of what you might expect given the premise. The premise is God becomes man and enters this world. Given that premise, I would not expect him to die. Right. And I would not expect that the death of a perfect man would be used to atone for my own sins, which, by the way, I'm not even that. Well, I'm not even in touch with them all that much. You know, people ask a question like, why do bad things happen to good people? And sometimes I think, well, it's a flawed question because there aren't any good people. And one of Jesus's message on the Sermon on the Mount was that he's like, here's what you think of as sin. You think murder is sinful. But I tell you Any man who has hatred in his heart for his brother has already committed it. You think adultery is sinful, but I tell you, if you look at another woman with lust in your heart, you've already committed it. It's like he's getting to the root, right? He's getting to the seed inside of all of us, and it's there in all of us. And just because I've never killed a man does not mean that I don't have the disease of hatred. And just because I have never committed adultery does not mean that I don't have that disease inside of me. And I could say, well, because of my own self discipline and wisdom and discernment, I've never gotten myself into a situation where that disease has overcome me. But truth be told, I think most of that is the mercy and grace of God by keeping me from that. Because as I look back, I can see now in hindsight some situations where I was like, oh, if this had gone this way and this had gone this way and I ended up in this situation, I don't know what I would have done. Something would have got me. So I guess back to inversion and back to the apostles and back to the idea of, like, what does it mean to how are you supposed to live? And you find, you consult Jesus himself and you get all of these inversions. The first will be last, the last will be first. He who will save his life will lose it. What is that? And then you hear Paul say, basically, I count everything a loss in comparison with eternal life. And I don't get the impression by reading Paul's letters that, you know, he was in prison or shipwrecked on an island, and he's thinking, God called me personally by name, changed my name, blinded me in the process, but asked me to do this, and what the hell, God. Yeah, you know, I didn't sign up for this. I signed up to follow you. I thought you were the good, almighty, powerful God that I'm. That loves me, that I'm following. I mean, there's something of an inversion in that. I think that when we choose to follow God, whatever that means. And it's a very difficult, at least for me, it's a difficult concept for me, I think, because I want to quantify it. You know, I want to say, here's what it means, and I don't exactly know what it means. And I'm struck by that every day. It's like, I want to follow God, but I don't know how or what

[27:51] Michael: it means or what it means.

[27:53] Matt: And it seems like part of the answer to that is, well, it doesn't mean what you might think it means. It might mean to the death in a kind of Braveheart kind of way. It might mean martyrdom. It might mean. What is the parable of the rich man? Jesus says, sell everything you own and follow me. He can't do it. But it might mean a bunch of other things. There's all kinds of examples that are different. We were talking earlier about David. David got himself into some shit, totally. But he also had a lot of things that we would think of as sort of traditional success. You know, wealth, power, influence, lots of women. So I don't know. I guess the question I'm driving at is like, I'm not even really sure I can trust myself to say what it is that I want in some sense. What is it that I want for my life?

[28:56] Michael: Well, I think just also just thinking about the alternatives to it too. It's like, because you see with the Pharisees as sort of like they found their meaning in following the law and however they interpreted the law, you know, and. And then by doing that, being so strict in following the law is like they. They missed the intention of the law. And it's sort of like, you know, healing somebody on the Sabbath, it's like, you can't do that. It's like this person is like, couldn't see it. Now they can see. Like, it's like that doesn't fit into your paradigm. Like something's wrong with your paradigm, dude.

[29:32] Matt: Well, and also your paradigm is preventing you from seeing the son of God. I mean, if you can't see God because of your rules, it's not something wrong with God, it's something wrong with your interpretation of your rules.

[29:47] Michael: I think that's the part. It's like we find safety in rules. You know, there's sort of like this. That's okay. Hey, here's the cage you can live in. It's like, okay, cool. As long as I follow these rules, I'll be left alone. Okay, fine. That sounds great.

[30:01] Matt: Totally. And back to your point about business, the principles. It's like we want those rules so that we can say as well, as long as I do these things, everything's going to be okay. And if it goes to shit, it's not exactly my fault.

[30:12] Michael: Yeah, I follow the rules.

[30:13] Matt: I followed the rules. Must be a problem with your rules.

[30:19] Michael: Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean, and then there's other part. There's another side of that too. Is like I'm not going to live by any rules. I'm just going to do whatever I want to do. And I think that's the part also, you find yourself bankrupt on that side too. It's like, I'm just going to make up my own rules and live by my own standards. And. And there's a sort of a. You start to feel the unfulfillment because there's nothing. There's nothing on the other side of that. The same with following the rules.

[30:47] Matt: Well, if there's no standards, there's nothing by which to assess value. I mean, if you have no standards, then nothing matters to you. Right. You don't value one thing over another. You have to have a standard to do that.

[31:02] Michael: Yeah.

[31:04] Matt: I like the way that you put that you're bankrupt on both sides. On the one side you have extreme control. On the other side you have sort of extreme abandonment. And both end up in Greytown, to use Lewis's allegory from the Great Divorce. So what's in the middle? Like, what is the way? What is the. Proverbs says, trust in Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight.

[31:48] Michael: Or like in a man's heart, he plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps. There's always this sort of like there's this dance that you have to do with something outside of yourself.

[32:00] Matt: Yeah. So if the question is, on the one hand we're bankrupt, on the other hand we're bankrupt. So what is the middle? And when I read that person Proverbs, I think, okay, there it is. He will make your path straight. I want the straight path. What is that? How do I engage in that? Well, Proverbs says, well, you start by lean, not on your own understanding. Meaning, okay, if I'm going to go the straight path, I'm not going to understand it. Well, that's a hard start.

[32:35] Michael: Well, it's almost ridiculous, honestly, because, like, lean not on your understanding. It's like, because once you say that, you're now. You now have a reference point outside of yourself.

[32:45] Matt: Yeah.

[32:46] Michael: So trust in the Lord because like any sort of reference point that starts with you is insufficient and leads to bankruptcy. You know, like, like I follow these rules, so therefore this should. The. The results should be this. It's like, well, I don't follow any rules, so nothing should affect me, you know, because I have nothing to. Nothing to measure myself against.

[33:06] Matt: Right.

[33:07] Michael: But each of those leads to a bankruptcy. Whether it's like you know, because you end up kind of making up rules too. It's like to, you know, how to justify yourself. Well, I'm going to be. I'm going to really help people. Okay? Anybody who's spent any time helping people, they're not doing it for something outside of themselves other than just self fulfillment. You get a certain bankruptcy because inevitably you're like, I'm not getting anything from this.

[33:40] Matt: Well, it's also a lot harder to do than you might think. Helping people is quite difficult because generally what you think they need help. Well, it's not only that, but it's like what you think they need help with is not actually what they need help with. Understanding what a person's needs are is no easy task. I mean, you see this all the time with social policy. The state of California has invested how many billions or trillions, who knows how many dollars in trying to help the homeless. And what has happened, the population has exploded and they're spending more and more money and it's just getting worse and worse. And I think, you know, there's a lot of people who diagnose that in many different ways. But I just think the point is it's a lot harder to help people than you think,

[34:30] Michael: especially when you. And but I think that's the hard thing too is like, you have these, like, small places where it's actually like, you know, I want to help people. And then you give somebody $10 and you see them like, elated, like, oh my gosh, thank you so much. And then the very next day they're like, can I have 10 more dollars? Like, well, what'd you do with the other $10? Like, well, I bought a. I don't know, a fifth or something like that. Yeah, yeah, it's like 40. Yeah, 40. You know, it's. It's something that. It's like, was that really helping? It's like, maybe withholding is helping, you know, and it's like, you just don't know. It's hard to like, navigate that sort of like, what does it mean to help somebody?

[35:19] Matt: Well, I think it kind of comes back to this question of how is it that we're supposed to live? And we've already established that there is something like the straight path, at least a path that doesn't necessarily lead to bankruptcy, but along that path, you're going to encounter trials of many kind, many kinds. One of my, one of my kids friends recently, I heard, got kicked out of the house by their parents,

[36:00] Michael: and

[36:00] Matt: I felt a little distraught about it. And I thought, you know, I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. I don't know how bad things are or the motivations for that. But I do know that there are situations in which maybe that is the right thing. You know, you think about, like, Breaking Bad, where Jesse's parents. Did you watch Breaking Bad? Oh, never mind. One of the main characters parents basically withhold. They kick him out of the house, and they say because he's, like, way into drugs and cooking meth and all kinds of. They're like, we can't be doing this. You can't be here anymore. And I think, well, maybe that's the right call. But, damn, that's a hard call to make because this is your child. I can't imagine telling one of my children that they're not allowed to come to the house. But I can imagine a situation in which things were bad enough to where I would consider that or would have to, at least. Would it be the right call? I don't know. But I think I just say all that to illustrate this point that, well, back to what we were talking about earlier. We don't know what we're doing, and it's easier to understand when things fail than it is to understand when things succeed. And so maybe one of the tools that we need to keep in our toolkit for how to answer this question is to say, well, I'm not really sure when I'm on the path, because I don't understand it, but I sure as hell know when I've gotten off of it. I sure as hell know when I've made a mistake. You know, and the mistake might be, I told my kid that they're kicked out. And then maybe your heart's convicted. You say, this wasn't the right thing. I was just fed up, and I didn't feel like I had any more to give. And now that I've calmed down, I feel this is hypothetical. Yeah, I feel, you know, like I do have more. I messed up. And this is where the idea of repentance comes in. Because the idea of the meaning of the word repentance is to turn around. You've gotten off the path, you're going the wrong direction, turn around. You know, doesn't happen so much these days with gps. But back in the day, you know, you'd be on a long road trip and all of a sudden be like, I'm not sure that I should be seeing. You know, it's like that scene in Dumb and Dumber. Where they're trying to drive to Alpine. And overnight Lloyd wakes up. Or it's Lloyd and what's the other one's name?

[38:31] Michael: I forget.

[38:31] Matt: Harry. Harry wakes up and he's like, oh, I thought Alpine would have more snow than this. And he's been going the wrong way for like seven hours. And they're like in the middle of Ohio or something. But it's like when you find out that you've messed up and you're on the wrong road, you don't go, well, I guess here's where we are now, and here's where we'll stay. We'll pitch a tent. And here we'll just live here. You know, this isn't the Oregon Trail. It's like, no, you turn around, I'm off. I gotta turn around.

[39:02] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's. It's so hard. I mean, it's like there's so many things we're kind of. Kind of trying to parse here, which is. And this is something I've been really just kind of maneuvering around just in my own. My own way. Because that's something that, like the way that the Bible talks about, like, Jesus living. There's something in that that is very eye opening to me. And I don't know exactly where it is. And part of it is, is this whole thing of like, going back to kind of like our shores of ignorance is like, I know who I am and also don't know who I am. And I think it's like, I think the. We're. We're somewhat familiar with I know who I am, but I think it's the most important thing is it's like, where do I ground that I don't know who I am. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's a real. That's a real huge key because a part of like, I don't know who I am is like, you're. You're now, you're now expecting a reference point outside of yourself because you know that you're stuck in this place of like, knowing who you are, not knowing who you are. It's the same thing of like, you know, I know Matt, but also don't know Matt. You know, but at least like, that part is in Matt. Like, if I don't know Matt well, I just get to know him better. The reference point is him, not my understanding of Matt. You know, it's like, so it's like, but where do you ground the I don't know who I am in yourself? Like, that's really hard. Do you ground it in yourself? And the very. I don't know, you know, And I think that's the part that then we start looking for these reference points outside of ourselves, you know, and maybe it's inanimate objects like pleasure or money or something like that that we look for these other things that define us or to give us value, if anybody's pursued those things even a little bit. You start to see, like, that doesn't really feed you the way that you think it would feed you.

[41:15] Matt: Well, let's put a definition on that. What does that mean? To not know who you are? What are you talking about? If you don't know who you are, there's something about you that's opaque to yourself. Yeah, I don't know. Let's. Let's try to unpack that.

[41:37] Michael: Well, I think it's just, you know, just. It's like I think I know what I want in life, and there's a part of me that kind of knows what that is. It's like, you know, I want to have good relationships, you know, a good friendship with you, good relationship with my wife and with my kids, and. And. And those are things like, I. I know about myself, you know, it's like. And that kind of drive me moving forward. But then when I. When I start to think about it, I was like, what does it mean to have a good relationship with Matt? You know? Well, maybe it's just I could do everything Matt tells me to do, you know, or, You know, to be successful means this right here. And so it's like, okay, well, then I'll put my value in being a good business person and making money. And so you start to kind of like, come across this thing where it's like, wait a minute. I don't really know what I want or what I think I want. I'm putting it in the wrong space. So you start kind of coming against this, like, I don't really know who I am or what I actually want. And so I think there's a sort of. Or even just the idea of, like, every day I learn something new about myself. And so I just can see that there's things that I don't know about my own desires. That's kind of worrying. What do you think?

[43:23] Matt: I guess the way that I think about it for myself is. I was going to use the example of a celebrity, but it's really just kind of everyone in the world now because we have these little windows into people's lives, and I guess I'LL just use the celebrity as an example. A celebrity is someone you spend a lot of time with but you've never met, you know, meaning you watch a lot of their movies, read a lot of their books, listen to a lot of their songs, podcasts, whatever it may be.

[43:57] Michael: Biographies.

[43:58] Matt: Biographies. You spend a lot of time with them, and yet you've never met them. And you have a sense that you know them. But also, if you're, you know, sort of sane and well grounded, you. You keep hold of the idea that you actually don't know this person as much as you feel like you do. You know almost nothing about them. Actually, I have a version of that that's internal to me. I have this sense that I know something about me, but also this sense that I don't have visibility fully into who I am. I'm something like a celebrity to myself, to use that example.

[44:45] Michael: I like that.

[44:45] Matt: It's like I'm with me all the time, so I see what I do and I feel what I feel, and I think what I think. And I'm tracking all of this, and I've got to, you know, some kind of self image built up, but then all of a sudden, you know, who I thought I was kind of fakes me out, trips me up

[45:08] Michael: in.

[45:09] Matt: In all kinds of ways. Like, it might be. It might be that I was fully confident and sure that I was feeling good today and doing well. And then all of a sudden, you're singing a song, whistling a tune or whatever, and you turn the corner and you see it could be something as trivial as, like a leaf falls and blows off in the wind, and suddenly you just start crying and you go, what the. What is that? And you actually have to ask yourself, what is that? The answer is not readily available to me. And I might say it has something to do with, oh, reminded me of this really special summer 30 years ago out in the Texas hill country. Or it reminded me of this one time with my dad, or the first time I had my first kiss. And Lewis CS Lewis actually calls this kind of trick. It's like he says Wordsworth is always trying to call this thing something like nostalgia, but you encounter it, it jumps you. There's something in you that is longing for something for which you don't have a definable object. And there's something inside of me that I experience where part of it is, oh, I don't really know myself that well. I can't really predict myself that well. And also, if I'm honest about that, I find that there's something in me that is longing for something I cannot define. What is that? So the more I look internally, the more I look inside myself, the more questions I find, not more answers. So I would say, yeah, I know myself sort of like I know a celebrity. But the more I investigate, the more questions I have about who I am. I. Who. Who am I? What am I up to? I don't really know.

[47:17] Michael: I think that's. That. I think that's such a great analogy. Like, we do kind of have this sort of idea of who we are and. And some of it matches up to reality and some of it doesn't. Some of its hopes and dreams are how we want to be or wish to be. And then sometimes we're faced with, like, oh, like, I mean, just see being like a husband and a father. Sometimes, like, I have this idea of me as a husband and father, and, you know, it's fairly rosy, you know. And then I'm confronted with, like, oh, shit, I'm not that good of a husband, or I'm not that good of a father, or not as good as I thought I was. And you're like, do I even know myself? You know, And. And it's not that your whole world just crumbles, but it definitely, like, kind of shows you. It's like, I actually don't know myself as well as I thought I did, you know? Or you, if you consider yourself a nice person and you get angry with somebody and for no reason at all, you're like, whoa, where'd that come from?

[48:23] Matt: You know, maybe it kind of goes back to that idea of inversion. It's like, how do you be a good father? Well, you certainly don't start by saying, well, I'm a good father, so here's what I'm going to do. I would say, invariably, that's going to lead you to one of those bankruptcy routes, because you think you know what you're doing. Sorry, you don't. And the more arrogant you are about thinking, you know, pride comes before the fall, right? It's going to flip on you and you're not going to see it coming. So back to. It's easier to define failure than it is to define success or to diagnose failure than it is to diagnose success. So maybe the best way to be good at anything is to start by defining the failures and say, at minimum, I'm going to stay away from those. The rest I don't exactly know how to do. But if I can stay away from what I For sure know is not it. Then I'm limiting my options to hopefully the set that is more likely to be the thing that I would like to be.

[49:39] Michael: Well, so maybe I don't think necessarily that's wrong. One thing that kind of like, it's sort of like whenever I learned about when I was mount. When I was doing mountain biking and stuff. And like, if you stare at the rock, you're going to hit the rock, you know, and like it's. It's this, you know, so there's something about, like, I remember when I was playing basketball, like, I looked up to Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson, Larry Birdie, like, you know, those three were like, just amazing to me. And it's even like when I watch golf too, it's like I'm so much more like, I play better when I try to emulate somebody who is greater than myself and whatever. Like a, like a good. A good dad or, you know, a person that I see that's kind of excelling in some area. It's like, but by doing that, you're acknowledging that you're not. You're not good enough, you know, or you're not, you're not. You see the deficit in yourself, but you're aiming up, you know. And so these are like. I feel like these are kind of like minor examples because they like, you know, all of those people are in this exact same, you know, shoes that you're in, you know, but they just might be further along or better at a certain thing than you are. You know, it's like, or Michael Jordan might be better at basketball than I am. Might be, you know, he's probably not a role model for being a good father, you know. You know, so it's like, so. So I think there's. There's something that we see and identify in other people that it's like, oh, wow, like, I really want to aspire to that. And, and in that, it's like you're seeing that deficit in your acknowledging. It's like, oh, I'm not what I could be.

[51:24] Matt: Yeah.

[51:25] Michael: And it's like, I actually. I don't know what actually could. What I. What I could be, you know, so. So I think that's. I don't know if that really helps us, but that's what that kind of made me think of is like. It's like not just what our deficits are, but you also have to know what you're aspiring to.

[51:44] Matt: Well, I think it's because they also

[51:47] Michael: refill our deficits too.

[51:48] Matt: Yeah. In Your example it is you see your deficits in the light of what it is that you're aspiring to. And this is the idea of every ideal becomes a judge.

[51:59] Michael: Oh, well, that's good. Yeah.

[52:02] Matt: And that isn't the only way to find out your deficits. You know, you can find out your deficits by just falling on your ass. But if you become the biggest fish in a small pond and think you're the shit, it isn't until you move into a different pond that you see your deficits because you think you're, you know, the bee's knees. Do bees have knees?

[52:31] Michael: Yes. Really small ones.

[52:33] Matt: Really small ones.

[52:35] Michael: Well, it's interesting too, because I was just thinking about the opposite of that or another aspect of this is that in order to sort of justify ourselves, sometimes we compare ourselves to people who don't do as well as we do. Like, oh, like, well, at least I'm a better father than that guy.

[52:53] Matt: Right.

[52:55] Michael: You know, at least I'm a better business owner than that guy or that heroine. It's like, so you started kind of building this sort of confidence, self confidence up on, like, you know, trying to find maybe people that are having a hard time or are not doing as well as you. And it's like you start to define yourself by that.

[53:21] Matt: Well, isn't that interesting that we're going back to the idea of we know ourselves but don't know ourselves. We are constantly trying to find ways to sort of jigger together a system by which we can define who we

[53:34] Michael: are,

[53:36] Matt: which is to say, well, we don't know who we are. And I find some kind of comfort because I can't tell whether I'm a good father or a bad father exactly. I don't really know. But I saw this guy hit his kid, or this guy got a dui, or this guy forgot to pick his kid up from something. And I'm like, well, at least I'm not that. And it's like I'm using that as a definition for myself. Like, that's a weird thing to do and just. Just betrays myself. That, like. Oh, yeah, right. I don't exactly. I don't really know. And I'm searching for a box that I can build around myself.

[54:16] Michael: Yeah.

[54:16] Matt: To give myself definition. Because I can't. Because also, I can't define myself.

[54:23] Michael: That's interesting. You kind of almost put together like a. A conglomeration of things. Like, I want that. I want that. I don't want that. I want some of that. I don't less of that. And you try to, like. Yeah, I think there's this. You try to kind of define yourself, and then. And you kind of have this idea of who you are, and it seems like that idea of who you are is always breaking. You know that. But you also need it, too. It's sort of like. It's like you need borders, you need boundaries, but, you know, they can either be a prison or something that helps you kind of like, stabilize so that you can move on, too. Because, I mean, there's so many people I've looked up to in the past and that have been sort of like, stabilizers for me, you know? You know, our friendship is a stabilizer. You know, it's like. But it's like, I also. I can't be with. I can't be friends with the mat that I knew five years ago.

[55:20] Matt: You know, who is he?

[55:22] Michael: Who is he? Exactly. It's like, it's. It's something I also have to change and grow and also have to accept you for who you are becoming and getting to know you and who you're becoming. Because. Because if I'm friends with the Matt from five years ago, it's like, I'm not friends with you. It's like I'm. I'm friends with an idea of who Matt is. You know, it's like. It's like whenever you go back to. I mean, when I first went back from high school, after a year or two after. In college, it's like. It's like I felt like my friends were like, we're relating to a Michael that was 2 years old. And it's like, I think that's what we do with ourselves sometimes. We try to put ourselves in this sort of like, this box and put it on the shelf and say, okay, here's who I am.

[56:07] Matt: Right.

[56:08] Michael: And. And when you do that, it's like you find that all sorts of trouble find you after. Once you stop. Once you. Once you've kind of defined yourself, you know? Yeah.

[56:22] Matt: Because that definition becomes outdated almost immediately. It's like you. Yeah, you put that box up on the shelf, and then all of a sudden you're gone, and that thing's a relic.

[56:31] Michael: But also, it's like, how good of that is. Is like, we've talked about this before, about how, like, you hold a certain version of me, and so I can come back to you and you can remind me of that version. Hey, this is the Michael I know. I don't know where you're at right now, but this is what I know. About you.

[56:49] Matt: Yeah.

[56:49] Michael: And it kind of like, it's helpful and useful, you know, but if you. But if. Like, if. If you don't allow me to be somebody new, it's like our relationship starts to fall apart, you know, it's like. Because it's like, I'm not that person anymore. But also you hold a version of me that's helpful for me to. To see and to know.

[57:12] Matt: Isn't that crazy that we can forget who we are too?

[57:16] Michael: Totally.

[57:17] Matt: And that a good friend can remind us. Like, no, I know you. You're not acting like you. Yeah. And you're like, oh, shit, our stupid things.

[57:27] Michael: Like, you're better than that. It's like, what the fuck you mean, I'm better than that? You know, it's like, yeah. Hmm.

[57:36] Matt: So it's almost like this. Even this idea of sense of self is just fraught. And we live in a time, a culture where sense of self is the central objective of almost all policy and all social initiatives and all advice, all therapy, all everything. It's like your sense of self is sacred. And it's kind of like, hold up. What are you talking about? How can something. How could that be sacred when I can't even point to it? I can't even hold on to it. Sometimes I have it, but I can't tell you how I got it. It's a fraught concept, and I think it is for something you pointed to earlier, which is that. It relies on an external reference point.

[58:38] Michael: Yeah.

[58:40] Matt: And this current idea of sense of self is self contained. There's no external reference point. You are who you say you are.

[58:46] Michael: Or the external reference point has to acquiesce to your version of who you are. And it's like, okay,

[58:56] Matt: which is flipping everything to say, no, who I say I am is reality. Everything else is not reality. Meaning everything else has to conform to me.

[59:08] Michael: I was just thinking, like, if a barista. If I was doing an eval, and I'd be like, hey, okay, I noticed, like, you're really short with customers and you don't really engage with them. Like, no, I'm actually really good with customers. It's like, that's how I perceive myself as really good as customers is like,

[59:28] Matt: I identify as being really good with customers.

[59:31] Michael: Good with customers.

[59:32] Matt: Like, oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me.

[59:33] Michael: Excuse me.

[59:34] Matt: Your raise will be in the next paycheck.

[59:36] Michael: Totally. It's like that. You'd just be a nut, a nutter for thinking that, you know, it's like. But there is something about that. Is like when we try to justify ourselves to other people that. No, I'm actually a nice guy, Matt. Okay, Michael, fine, you're a nice guy.

[59:54] Matt: Which is so funny because that kind of statement is inherently not nice. It's like very demanding and threatening. It's like, whoa, okay, okay, yeah, you're a nice guy.

[60:04] Michael: Yeah. But it's also an overreaction, too. Sort of like, you know, where, you know, people that judge other people is like, you know, hey, you know, you're a worthless piece of shit. It's like, no, you're not. Like, that person is not. And it's like you're. That you're actually seeing this person incorrectly. Like there's something. There's something valuable about this person that you're missing. And so it's like there's a sort of like self talk or self help where it's like, it's like, no, I'm actually a valuable person. No matter what the sort of abuse of like, you know, I'm not valuable or I'm a shitty person. Does that make sense? Like, sort of like the, you know, an abusive relationship, you know, where if the other person's telling you that you're not worth anything.

[60:51] Matt: Yeah.

[60:51] Michael: It's like, well, they're actually not. They're not seeing you correctly. So there is that part. Like, you have to choose, you know, what are those. What are those reference points outside of yourself that. That are actually speaking to who you are.

[61:09] Matt: I just got a glimpse of something there because the west is founded on this idea that every human being has inherent value and inalienable rights, which is why we spend a lot of time and effort when somebody's done something horrific to make sure that we handle that right correctly. And there is a point, there is a sense in which the abusive partner who says to their loved one, you're worthless. We all cringe at that. We go, no, they're not worthless. Because we take that, in a sense as the implicit truth that there's no such thing as a worthless human being. And so when you tell a human being they're worthless, you are abusing them, you are betraying some kind of reality.

[62:20] Michael: Yeah. Something that's inherent within them.

[62:22] Matt: Right. But then there is also the case, you know, like, take the deadbeat dad stereotype. I don't really see many of those these days. I sort of took for granted when I was a kid that that person existed. But there's a sense in which, like, yeah, you're kind of worthless, you schmuck. You know, you're not doing what you know you should be doing. But that sort of statement is something like, you're not behaving the way you know you should. Because there is something in all of us that knows that there is a proper way to behave in accordance with reality. We may not know exactly what it is, but we know it exists. And I think that's the external point of reference.

[63:10] Michael: It's interesting because it's almost like two different ways. The way you brought that up is there's two different. One is manipulation. It's like you're worthless. There's a sort of asserting control over the individual as far as you need to value how I think about you more than you value yourself. And then the other part is, it's like, hey, you're not living up to what you're capable of. But the thing is, you're calling them something greater, something bigger.

[63:43] Matt: Calling them.

[63:44] Michael: Yeah. Where the other one is more of

[63:45] Matt: like you're calling them to that. Turning around. It's like, hey, turn around. No, look at who you actually are.

[63:52] Michael: And could be the potential, too.

[63:54] Matt: Yeah. Not all of the stimulus and disappointment that you're running away from. Turn around and look at who you actually are. You are failing to be who you actually are.

[64:06] Michael: I think that's probably what even. It's. The ultimate call is sort of like you are created in the image of God. It's like. It's like, whoa, that's a high calling right there. You know, it's like that's something like, you know, where you can kind of see where you fall short of that. But it's like. But the thing is, it's like you're called to something greater than yourself because you're made in the image of something greater than yourself.

[64:32] Matt: So, yeah, I think we've been kind of, like, holding off on getting to that point, but I think that's exactly it. It's like, how do you know? What is it that. How do you walk the straight path? I'm told to not lean on my own understanding. What am I supposed to do? And I think that there is something that you're supposed to look at. There is something. I mean, like your mountain biking example. You're going down the trail. If you look at the rock, you're going to crash. Where do you look? You look towards the path. The path, Right. If you're landing an airplane as you're coming into the strip, you have your eyes fixed on the numbers, which is the beginning of the airstrip. But as soon as you get to the Numbers. If you keep looking there, you're going to crash. You have to bring your eyes up to the horizon. Look to the end of the Runway.

[65:24] Michael: Yeah.

[65:24] Matt: Because that's where you're going. So what is it that you look at? So you call someone to be. To act in accordance with who they actually are. Hey, you're acting like a deadbeat dad. I know there is something better in you that not only would be better for everyone else, but also I think you want better. What is that image? What is that thing that calls us? What am I calling on? What am I appealing to? And I think it's what you just said. It's that we are made in the image of God. And it is the godliness inside of us which is really our true definition. If I don't know who I am, where am I to look? I am to look to the one who does know who I am. I'm to look to the one who made me. And it reminds me of, I think, John, chapter three, when Jesus talking to Nicodemus, and he says, just as Moses lifted up the serpent on the staff, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. You know? And what is the. The. One of the central messages of the Bible, I think, is look to the cross. So what does it mean? What does it mean to appeal to the part of me that is made in the image of God? Well, it's. I can look to myself and I'll have some idea because it's in me. But I'm also pretty fucked up, and I don't get it, and I don't see it clearly. I don't understand. So it's better for me to fix my eyes on God himself. And where am I told to find God himself? Hanging on a cross. And I don't know what to do with that because that's crazy. It's crazy.

[67:23] Michael: It's crazy. Well, it's super fascinating because it's like. I think that's the part that we kind of do this without knowing that we're doing it. It's like we fix our eyes on something, you know, whatever definition that is. And so at some point, you have to start thinking about. It's like, hey, what is. What is the best thing I could fix my eyes on? You know, if it's to be the best mother, it's like, oh, you're gonna fail. You know, it's like. Because that's kind of like what we were saying at the beginning is like, well, being the best mother is sort of like you're Destined to fail. Because, like, you're. You're gonna let them into the world and. And experience this world in a way that's scary.

[68:09] Matt: Yeah. But the flip side of that is essentially Munchausen's by proxy, which is, I'm going to be the best mother by my own definition, which is that my child loves me so much, they're never going to leave me. I'm everything to them. They are everything to me. And I. I can't remember the name of the woman. This young girl murdered her mother over this with the help of a boyfriend. It's a crazy story, but anyway, yeah, I think it's back to that sort of original premise that we were talking about, where you take the definition into your own hands, you go bankrupt. You say, well, okay, so there's no definition again, bankruptcy. It's like the definition is hard. The definition, the image at the end of the road, of the path that you actually want. Looks like gone on a cross.

[69:06] Michael: Yeah. Even the idea of being a better father, it's like that changes over time, too. It's like, what does it mean to be a good father? It's like part of it is releasing your children into the world. And so, like, so kind of like your job is done after a certain period of time or it becomes a lesser role, you know, so. So, like, well, how do you. Well, and then you kind of come back to what you were talking about as, like. Like, what does it even mean to be a good father? Like, what is that. What is that even modeled after? It's like, what are you looking to. To model that for you?

[69:47] Matt: I. I can't remember who said this. I was hoping it would come to me in this brief couple of seconds, but I think it might be Dallas Willard, who wrote a book that I have not read yet called the Divine Conspiracy. And I think he says in that book that the cross is the exhibition of God's nature. And so I would submit that the answer to the question, what does it mean to be a good father? Can be found by looking at the Father. And what is it that the Father has done? Our spiritual father, God the Father? Well, he said there is no greater love than this, that one would lay his life down for a friend. And then he went and did it. And so I think, you know, we had this conversation a number of episodes back. I don't know how many, a hundred, where we had both read the Old man and the Sea, and we were talking about the. The futility of masculinity and how it feels like, as far as I can tell, my job as a man is to bleed myself out. Hmm. And I think biologically, that's. That's pretty much true. It's interesting to me that children. So the. The cells from which you came, the initial cells that started dividing, dividing, that became you, those originated in your grandmother's womb. Your father can. Your. Neither your grandfather or. Well, that's not true. Your father contributed nothing to the cells that make you. All your father contributed was genetic diversity. The cells, the structure that became your physical body came from your mother. And there's this very profound idea, and I think our societies are sort of organized around it in a certain sense, in which men are that which die. Women don't die in that same sense. It's like your mother, when she was born, had already began on the cells that became you before she ever met your father. You are, in a sense, the continuation of her cellular lineage. I think, you know, in men, we contribute the genetic diversity, and then we go off and die. We don't leave anything behind, which I think is why, simultaneously, we have always erred towards family names being the man's name, because he doesn't have anything else.

[73:04] Michael: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[73:06] Matt: And why men tend to care more about legacy and leaving something behind. We want to leave something behind. Right? We want our name on something. We want to leave behind a trust. We want to leave behind a building. We want to leave behind something because that's it. There's nothing else we can leave behind. Every woman who has a child leaves that child behind. That's a part of her in a way that. That's not a part of the man. And so I feel. I feel this. I don't know that this is necessarily true, but it feels to me this way that my job is to bleed myself dry and to go out empty. And I don't mean. Well, I was going to say, I don't mean, like, to go out with nothing, but ultimately, yeah, I'm going out with nothing. I have to give all that I have until I expire. And I just don't think it's that way with women. And so I guess when I look to the cross and I look to the father, which I'm postulating is the answer to this question, well, what is it that you look to? How do you fix your eyes on the path if you want the straight path? Well, the example that I see when I look toward the only external reference point that I can sort of rationally define, which is interesting. I listened to this podcast today. Where it was Brett Weinstein, evolutionary biologist. He was interviewing this guy. I'd never heard of him before, but he was making a similar argument. He was saying that basically, there's no such thing as morality because there's no such thing as an objective external reference point for morality. And I was like, well, you're right on your analysis, but you're wrong on the fact that there's no external reference point. I know he would disagree with me on what that reference. Whether that reference point exists. But the only plausible answer, as far as I can tell for what that external reference point, which we must have to have morality, which we do. We do have morality. The only plausible explanation or definition for that is God. And when I look at God and I say, okay, I'm fixing my eyes on you. What does it mean to be a good father? And he says, I bleed myself out for you, and that's hard. Okay, so now I must do that. I must bleed myself out for my children, my family, my loved ones, my business, my everything.

[76:07] Michael: Yeah, I think I have a little bit of problem in that, but it makes sense to me. But I'm trying to kind of work through some things, Because as you're saying this, I see we do this just in general. Men and women are babies and children and women are to be saved on boats. And it's like, men are more expendable than women because it takes one man and 10 women to populate a community. But if you have one woman and 10 men. Yeah, you're dead. Yeah. It's like you can't. You can't populate a community. So it's like. It's like there is a certain idea. Like, there's a. There's an expended. Expendability of. Of men that's. That's sort of natural. And it's like, you know, men go to war, and that's. That's part of the reason why men go to war.

[77:03] Matt: And.

[77:03] Michael: And historically speaking, women don't. Is for. That is for that reason.

[77:08] Matt: Well. And they don't go unwillingly.

[77:09] Michael: Yeah.

[77:10] Matt: I mean, certain individuals may.

[77:13] Michael: Yeah. Individually, there's, like, exceptions, but. Yeah.

[77:15] Matt: But for the most part, men find a lot of meaning in that. Men find a lot of meaning of. In giving their life for another.

[77:24] Michael: But it's interesting because I feel like that is not as common in our culture today.

[77:33] Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think we're certainly talking about ideas which you could say are formed by tradition, and there's a certain transgressive aspect of our current culture. Which is trying to tear all of that down and saying, that was invalid. That was oppressive. That was the patriarchy. That was X, Y and Z ism and egotry and whatever. But I think that there is really a. There's a truth in it, which is always the problem of. It's always the problem of progressivism as it throws out the information it actually needs. Just like the problem with conservatism is that it shuts its ears to the information it actually needs.

[78:22] Michael: Yeah. New information. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely like there's pitfalls on both sides of that. Conservative and progressivism.

[78:29] Matt: Well, I mean, which is just a recapitul. Capitulation of what we were talking about earlier. It's like, why I don't know how to stay on the path. So I'm going to establish a bunch of rules and hold to those rules, and you're going to go bankrupt. And you could say, well, okay, then, no rules. Every man for himself, every woman for himself, every furry for him themselves. Okay, and again, bankruptcy.

[78:54] Michael: Yeah, that's fascinating. I think that's why I, like, just kind of even just going back to how you were talking about. Just the biological aspect of this is sometimes whenever you're in a culture that is sort of prosperous, it's like you forget about the foundations or the fundamentals, just biologically where people were told like, oh, we're overpopulating the world. It's like, okay, well, not having children is like a good thing, but if you hold on to that long enough, or if there's not very many heterosexual relationships, it's like, well, then you kind of reach the opposite problem. It's like you don't have enough people to sustain the society that you've actually created.

[79:44] Matt: Right.

[79:47] Michael: So it's just really fascinating that sometimes wealth and prosperity kind of blind us to our actual needs. You know, it's like, because when you're surrounded with comfort, you think you know who you are. It's like, oh, well, I live in this house. I also have air conditioning, and I go to work and I come home and I. We have our dinners and it's like all of a sudden it's just like your world just got really small and you think you have it defined, and then all of a sudden, something comes along and knocks you off that pedestal, which you and I have experienced quite a few times in different ways as far as, like, whether it's through business or relationship or whatever, you know, it's like it kind of wakes you up. It's like, oh, I Thought it was so secure. But then my hope was kind of in the wrong things. You know, I had this security and, you know, my business or my relationships, that was kind of, like, false. And it's like, I need to spend more time, you know, with my kids or with my wife or with my business or whatever it might be and kind of relearn it because I. I don't know it as I should have known it. And those are just like. I think those are just, like, physical things. But when we're talking about, like, on a grander scale, it's like, what is that even mirroring? It's like. I think that's the part where, you know, you come back to, like, we're created in the image of God. It's like there's something that is in us that's. That's kind of screaming at us. It's like you're actually more than what you think you are. And if you don't pay attention, if you don't give attention to that,

[81:25] Matt: your

[81:25] Michael: world is going to get really small or really chaotic or too orderly because you're going to overcompensate for that.

[81:37] Matt: Maybe that's a good place to leave it. I think that sums it up for me. It's like you're more than who you think you are. And I think that likely rings true for everyone. And if that's the case, Then every attempt you make to sort of nail down and defend who you are is an error, because you will not be moving on the path toward who you actually are, who you could be.

[82:22] Michael: There's a verse in Philippians that talks about, like. Like Jesus, even knowing being. Being God, did not consider himself equal with God. It's like, I can't. I can't draw that up right now.

[82:34] Matt: But, no, I think you got it.

[82:36] Michael: Yeah.

[82:36] Matt: I mean, that was enough, I think. Yeah, he had humility, even being God. Yeah, he had humility. And humility gives your eyes a direction to look. You know, it's like, does it mean to have humility when you're learning to play basketball? It's like, watch Michael Jordan.

[83:03] Michael: You'll figure it out. Figure it out real quick. Yeah, it's like, I'm not who I could be.

[83:08] Matt: Yeah, not who I could be. And all of our efforts to just to. To distract ourselves from that truth, which I think is the example I was trying to give, like, our. Our attempts to define it, to protect it, to put it in a box, to define ourselves relative to other people, to sort of just demand that we are without evidence or justification. All of that is an error because that's not. You don't have your eyes fixed on who you actually are. You don't have your eyes fixed on who you could be. You got your eyes fixed on the numbers, and you're trying to land that plane and it's not going to work out.

[83:45] Michael: Well, even think about what made Michael Jordan great. It's like even being arguably the best basketball player in the world is like, he would say, like he's. He's not what he could be.

[83:56] Matt: Like he's still trying to get better,

[83:57] Michael: trying to get better. It's like there's. There's something greater that I'm. I'm. I'm moving towards.

[84:03] Matt: He always considered his potential outside of his current grasp. Yeah.

[84:08] Michael: Yeah. All right, all right.

[84:12] Matt: Leave it there.

[84:13] Michael: Totally. That was great. Cheers.

[84:14] Matt: It's a good one.

[84:15] Michael: I love you guys.

[84:16] Matt: Love you all out there. Thank you for being with us tonight. Happy Wednesday.