The Rock and the Hunchback

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. All right, well, we're here. Let's go there.

[0:24] Michael: Let's do it.

[0:25] Matt: Cheers. To the shore. We don't really have a map for tonight.

[0:32] Michael: Well, if we did, we threw it out. Because once you go to war, you got to throw the map away.

[0:36] Matt: That's right.

[0:38] Michael: I'll have to say our last. Our last episode was really good. I listened to it, like, three times, and that's crazy. Like, still getting things from it.

[0:45] Matt: That's awesome.

[0:46] Michael: That's interesting.

[0:47] Matt: Yeah. I rarely listen to our conversations after we publish them. I'll have to go back and listen to that one.

[0:53] Michael: Yeah, me too. I mean, I very rarely listen to one, but there were just so many aspects of the darkness of God that was just like, wow, I really want to.

[1:01] Matt: Yeah.

[1:02] Michael: Get into that a little bit.

[1:03] Matt: Did you see. I think I talked about it on last week. Did that. I sent, found and sent you that video of the guy pretending to sort of be twins in the womb talking about whether or not you believe in life after delivery. Would you send that to me on probably Instagram?

[1:18] Michael: Oh, okay. Sometimes I. I don't get those for

[1:21] Matt: a while, but I. It is funny because I'll send you a bunch of clips over a period of time, and you won't ever respond to me. And then all of a sudden, I'll get, like, eight notifications of just emoji responses, totally down the page.

[1:34] Michael: I love it that you said to me. I love looking at those things.

[1:38] Matt: I'm like, I don't understand people who actually, I'm this way just with. I was going to say people who can just stand to have notifications on their app icons, you know, but for me, it's only the apps that I guess I care about. Like a text. If I have a text notification, I like, I'll go look at it. I Instagram notification, same. But, like, email. I think my email app says something like 35,000. It's, like, clearly not motivating me to

[2:06] Michael: do anything about it. I've got mine on do not disturb, so it doesn't show me any notifications.

[2:11] Matt: You just keep your phone on, do not disturb all the time.

[2:13] Michael: Yeah.

[2:14] Matt: So if I text you, you won't get a no.

[2:17] Michael: You and Allison and my kids are.

[2:20] Matt: We get to break the rules.

[2:21] Michael: Yeah. I think maybe my mom's on there, too, but just in case.

[2:27] Matt: Yeah. This is kind of fascinating. So there was another example, you know, anecdote on X. I think we Talked about this a while back where he said that he got a phone call from his wife.

[2:40] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[2:41] Matt: And his wife said, I'm at the gas station, but I forgot my credit card. Can you. And I don't know what it was. Like, read me the credit card number or something like that. And he goes, I only knew it wasn't my wife because my wife was sitting right next to me. He's like, it sounded like her. And we've talked about this in the past. And what's crazy is I was just at this conference where a guy did a whole presentation on how to make a sales voice AI so that it could answer the phone for your business after hours. And he gave it a demo of it, and it remarkably sounded like he was having a conversation with a human. And you can model a voice AI off of anybody's voice if you have enough recording of them. I tried it with my voice because we've got so many hours on the podcast. And this was three years ago. I did this.

[3:32] Michael: Oh.

[3:33] Matt: And was able to create a voice ad that sounded a lot like me. So the tools are totally easily accessible to do this. And the thing people have been suggesting is to come up with a code word. And you need, you know, with people that you love, but you need to do it away from your phone and away from anything. Like your ring camera, away from your computer. Like, you need to go out, you

[3:58] Michael: know, into a field.

[3:59] Matt: Into a field and agree on a

[4:01] Michael: word and put your hand over your mouth when you say the word.

[4:03] Matt: Yeah. So the satellites can't see you, but just thinking about you, you know, I have started keeping my phone on focus modes. I have it set to where it, like, during working hours goes into work mode if I'm at home. It's impersonal, you know, whatever. And it's so great because we get so many texts and calls from spammers all the time. And I saw somebody commenting about how the idea that you could just call someone is going to become very antiquated very soon. Like the idea that in the 90s, you could just find anyone's phone number in a book that we just delivered to every doorstep and you could just call them. And, like, there was a time we didn't even have an answering machine. There's nothing you could do to make that damn thing not ring except for take it off the hook, you know?

[4:56] Michael: Totally. I remember doing that during dinner time with my family. Yeah.

[5:01] Matt: But it's getting to where the idea that just anybody can call you is almost intolerable and now that you have almost no way of knowing that the person who's calling you is who they say they are, even if it's someone you know. Well, we're going to have to rethink how we. How we develop networks that are authenticated to where only approved people can call us or text us. I think that's coming.

[5:28] Michael: Yeah. Well, I mean, Nostr already exists, and it's like blockchain technology to have a digital identity that's, you know, tied to the blockchain, so it verifies that that's who you are and stuff. So. Yeah, I mean, but it does seem like it's, you know, at some point that will become more urgent.

[5:49] Matt: It's.

[5:49] Michael: Yeah, we don't change unless something's urgent.

[5:52] Matt: Right.

[5:53] Michael: It's like paying by, you know, with our phones. Like, before COVID I very rarely ever did that.

[5:58] Matt: Yeah, yeah. They didn't really roll tap to pay out until Covid.

[6:03] Michael: Yeah. Now it's like Medici does probably 97% credit card and 3% cash, which is kind of great because, like. Yeah. Come try to steal something from us. Here's 20 bucks.

[6:14] Matt: Yeah, 20 bucks. Take it.

[6:17] Michael: Totally.

[6:20] Matt: Do you deposit the cash you don't, like, under the table? Do illegal shit with it?

[6:28] Michael: No.

[6:28] Matt: Yes.

[6:29] Michael: On the podcast.

[6:29] Matt: Yeah. Tell me about it now. Wink. Tell me about it after.

[6:33] Michael: Yeah, well, it's still logged in our square, so it's still public record.

[6:43] Matt: Yeah. Where do you want to go? Do you want to talk about that Napoleon quote? You can't really say no now.

[6:51] Michael: Yeah, let's do it.

[6:53] Matt: No, you can. We can get to it later.

[6:55] Michael: Let's do it now. Just because it'll start us off and it's an interesting quote. So, okay, if we go with it, we go with it.

[7:01] Matt: If we don't, kind of like last week, we're going to start with a somewhat long reading. So this is a quote from Napoleon. And I didn't. I didn't try to verify that. I'm just taking it you're one of those people, so. Okay, so Grok confirms this quote is from Napoleon's reported talks on St. Helena. It appears in Sentiment des Napoleon sur le Christian sime. I butchered that.

[7:31] Michael: Part one or part two. He's making shit up. Yeah.

[7:37] Matt: Okay. Authenticity is debated, but to be frank with you, it doesn't matter. I mean, this is the point he is going to make. And what I'm about to read is a very interesting one that I've never heard made elsewhere. So that's why I Thought it was worth bringing. Yeah, okay. Alexander Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself have founded great empires. But upon what did these creations of our genius depend upon force. Jesus alone founded his empire upon love. And to this day, to this very day, millions will die for him. And I think I understand something of human nature. And I tell you all these were men, and I am a man. None else is like him. Jesus Christ was more than a man. I have inspired multitudes with such enthusiastic devotion that they would have died for me. But to do that, it was necessary that I should be visibly present with the electric influence of my looks, my words, and of my voice, the electric influence of my looks. When I saw men and spoke to them, I lighted up the flame of self devotion into their hearts. Christ alone has succeeded in so raising the mind of a man toward the unseen that it becomes insensible to the barriers of time and space. Across a chasm of 1800 years, Jesus Christ makes a demand which is beyond all others, difficult to satisfy. He asks for that which a philosopher may often seek in vain at the hands of his friends, or a father of his children, or a bride of her spouse, or a man of his brother. He asks for the human heart. He will have it entirely to himself. He demands it unconditionally. And forthwith his demand is granted. Wonderful. In defiance of time and space, the soul of a man with all its powers and faculties becomes an annexation to the empire of Christ. All who sincerely believe in him experience that remarkable supernatural love toward him. This phenomenon is unaccountable. It is altogether beyond the scope of a man's creative powers. Time, the great destroyer, is powerless to extinguish this sacred flame. Time can neither exhaust its strength nor put a limit to its range. This is it which strikes me most. I have often thought of it. This it is, which proves to me quite convincingly, the divinity of Jesus Christ. A lot to think on there.

[10:15] Michael: Yeah, I just passed. I had one thought. I was like, yeah, if someone said, like, today, go and die for Napoleon, I'd be like, what?

[10:26] Matt: Right.

[10:26] Michael: Why would I do that? Doesn't make any sense at all. But then you also have, like, you know, jihadists, you know, dying. But are they dying for Muhammad or are they dying for Allah?

[10:40] Matt: I think they're dying for the harem of virgins.

[10:44] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's the reward.

[10:47] Matt: I mean, yeah, I think you can think of some other examples. I mean, Mormonism with. What was that guy's name? Sam Smith or Scientology. Joseph Smith. Scientology. Although I don't think that's inspiring anybody. To give their life up.

[11:04] Michael: I don't think so either.

[11:05] Matt: Yeah. In either of those cases. But it is quite astounding. And the Bible references this. The Bible says, though you have not seen him, you love him and thereby you are saved. And that really is fascinating that across time and space, someone who I have never visibly seen has moved me to devote myself to him in the many ways that I have. I mean, I have not, in a sense, you know, I've not died for Christ except in that sense in which we die to ourselves. Die to ourselves by following Christ. I have not been like any of the apostles who've given their heads and their skin and their actual physical lives. But it's. It's obvious that many people do now in this day and age.

[12:08] Michael: Yeah. What is a powerful thing? Like, what would you die for? You know, it's like, I'd die for my wife. My kids. Probably die for you.

[12:20] Matt: Probably.

[12:22] Michael: Well, I even was going to use probably for my wife and my kids, too, because, you know, it's like I kind of subscribe to the belief as you don't know what you will do

[12:31] Matt: until when that time comes.

[12:33] Michael: Time like that time comes. I would like to think I would. I think that's probably more accurate description.

[12:40] Matt: That is true. I've had some experiences in my life where I. I don't think I've really put my life on the line, but I have gotten myself into some inadvisably dangerous positions without thinking about it because I was protecting something or someone rather, that I loved. And there was nothing as far as I was conscious of that went through my head that said, should I do or shouldn't I do this? It was just like, someone I love is in danger. I'm getting in there.

[13:10] Michael: Yeah.

[13:15] Matt: Yeah.

[13:16] Michael: The part is like, no one says, like, I'm going to be a Nazi guard. It's like you just don't know what you're doing until you're in the situation. But, yeah, I think that's. But I think that is something like, what would you die for? And. And there's not a lot to like. Like, to me, like. Like even just taking Jesus and like, God out of the equation right now is like, again, I guess I'll say it again. I would like to think. But the only thing that's, like, most valuable to me is what is real and what is true. Like, I. I feel like I would be a shell of a person if I cowered away from that. And I think I've. I've seen. I think I sometimes Feel those little deaths. Whenever I do cower away from what I believe or think is true. You know, Covid kind of, like, taught me that, you know, there's some things where I felt like maybe I should have been a little bit more put my foot down. And you're like, no, we're not gonna do that.

[14:21] Matt: Right.

[14:22] Michael: And I felt a little dark part of me die.

[14:25] Matt: I wonder how much of that was sort of by design, though. Like, they really broke our sense of. Our sense of honor or our sense of personhood by making everybody like, what is that? Like? You said, cower away from what you believe to be real and true. And when you do that, it diminishes you. And that seemed to be like a regular daily feature of life during those times. It's like, you have to cower away from this, or we're going to punish you severely. And it's not going to be necessarily even the threat of physical punishment. It's going to be reputational punishment. And that's what was really so shockingly difficult, I think, for so many people.

[15:13] Michael: Yeah. Or even just recently, Arch Manning was asked, this is too specific. Why? Oh, there was a meme going around with Coach Stark punching this reporter. And it's just. It was not true. And a reporter asked, did you see that? He's like, oh, yeah, that was funny. And you know that he was just like, yeah, that was funny. You know, it's like, I'm not taking this seriously. Like, he actually punched the thing.

[15:38] Matt: Right.

[15:39] Michael: And anyways, everyone's like, oh, my gosh, he thought it was funny. A man punching a woman. It's like, that's why it was funny, because Coach Shark would not do that.

[15:47] Matt: Right.

[15:49] Michael: Anyways, it just kind of. But then he apologized for it.

[15:54] Matt: It seems like so much of that stuff is set up just to get to say, oh, my God, he thinks that's funny just to chastise the person.

[16:04] Michael: But I think it's hard, too, because I think where you and I also stand is we know that we're not always right. And so to stand for something, you know, I have to really, like, understand, like, what it is that I'm standing for. And sometimes I'm not. I'm maybe 60, 40 on it, you know?

[16:22] Matt: Yeah.

[16:22] Michael: And so how much standing would I do with that? And I think that's the part, like,

[16:27] Matt: as you become more 60, standing. We call that the hunchback position.

[16:33] Michael: But is it over 51%? And that's where you die for.

[16:36] Matt: You know, it's like, I certainly think there's an error in not standing up strong. Strong enough for something because you don't have certainty about it. It's so often that we have to stand for things that we're not certain about. You have to take that risk.

[16:52] Michael: And some of it's helpful too, is like, you know, whenever we discuss things too, it's like, I might say something that. With. With a lot of certitude, and you're like, you sure about that? And like, oh, actually, I'm not sure about that. And. But sometimes it's. It's actually speaking with that certitude that draws it out to be contended with, you know?

[17:11] Matt: Is there a difference between certitude and certainty?

[17:15] Michael: I don't know. Certainty just came out of my mouth. But sometimes I like to carry words that are similar in sounding and say them.

[17:23] Matt: Yeah. Has. Has. Have there been any examples of recently in your life of things that you were scared to stand up for because you weren't certain of them?

[17:40] Michael: I would say not so much now. Just having gone through all of that that we went through and just trying to understand, like, all this insanity around us. I think it. I mean, I tend to be fairly delicate anyways and pursuing stuff like, I don't say things with, like, you're wrong and this is what's right. You know, it's more of like, first I want to understand, like, where the other person is coming from and then present my. My understanding of it, you know, so if that's. If that's speaking with certitude. Certainty. No, I don't know what to say.

[18:17] Matt: I'm gonna look it up.

[18:18] Michael: Thanks, Jamie. Can you fact check me on that one?

[18:21] Matt: Yeah,

[18:24] Michael: I feel so much more comfortable with. With that because I want to understand where you' coming from and how you got that information and if any of that changes are the way I think about it. But there's a lot of things, like, even with Jesus, I find myself having more certainty about him.

[18:47] Matt: So certainty and certitude are somewhat synonyms, but certainty is based on objective facts and evidence, while certitude is a subjective feeling of being completely convinced.

[18:58] Michael: Okay, so certitude is definitely the one I'm using then. Yeah, yeah, there's. There's. Because I think there's. I have a really hard time with certainty in general because I don't. I don't think I can be certain of anything. You know, Like, I feel like I can approximately certain.

[19:22] Matt: What is that verse that hope is being certain of what we do not see yeah.

[19:26] Michael: Hope is being sure of what you do not hope. Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.

[19:32] Matt: So faith asks for certainty, not certitude.

[19:36] Michael: Yeah, but even then it's like certain in what you do not see. It's coming with the confession that you don't know. And so it's kind of almost a paradox in being certain about what you don't know, because how can you be certain about what you don't know?

[19:57] Matt: You know, I don't know. Ask the Bible.

[20:00] Michael: And you're certain of it. Yeah, but I think that's the part of faith is like you have enough of a picture that you walk with a certain amount of certainty, you know, because if you're not certain about something that you won't move, you won't move toward it. So again, I think maybe even the way I'm using certain right now is like the same way I would say, like, I know who I am and I don't know who I am. Which I think certain kind of carries that same. Same paradoxical element. And sometimes I've lean towards the. How can you know where it's like. It's like I do know who I am, so I can be certain. I'm certain about my wife, but I'm also not certain about my wife. Sorry, I went on a little diatribe there.

[20:50] Matt: Yeah. There was one time my daughter's car wouldn't start, and I went and looked at it and I told her that the starter needed to be replaced. She asked me if I was sure and I said, yeah, and it didn't need to be replaced. I was wrong.

[21:04] Michael: I think that's good.

[21:05] Matt: I don't know how that's helpful, but, I mean, it's often we have to make decisions, right? We have to decide it is what it is. Because if you don't, well, what else are you going to do? So you have to decide and be willing to be wrong. You say, oh, okay, I was wrong. Need to update my dated perception, I guess, of what a broken starter sounds like. That's what it sounded like to me.

[21:29] Michael: It's kind of blowing my mind for a second here. It's like now I feel like I can't even use the word certain anymore.

[21:43] Matt: Let's define certainty, The state of being completely sure or free from any doubt. When are we ever free from any doubt? I mean, I guess that's what certain of what you do not see means. I have no doubts about that. Faith is having no doubts about what we don't see.

[22:13] Michael: Well, that's interesting because, like, I would probably say I'm certain about Jesus, but I don't. I don't understand it. But it's like enough evidence has been, you know, presented to me, like both, you know, physically or emotionally or intelligently or logically or whatever, that I'm like, no, I'm going to throw my hat in that ring. But doesn't mean I understand it. I have a complete comprehension of it. But I would say I was certain. All the evidence leads me to believe.

[22:54] Matt: Blah. Well, what's interesting is in our legal system, we don't ask for certainty because we sort of admit we can't have it. You have to know beyond a reasonable doubt.

[23:06] Michael: Oh, okay. That's weird. Okay. Can we use certain for anything?

[23:17] Matt: Probably not if we're being humble.

[23:20] Michael: Yeah. Well, I'll bring it back to like a college example. Like, I'm certain that you are here.

[23:26] Matt: There was a time when you were not, well, in college.

[23:29] Michael: It's like you play the whole game of like, I mean, is this cup really here? Like, it could be just like my figment of my imagination.

[23:37] Matt: Or do you happen to be smoking any particular?

[23:40] Michael: Not this particular time. I just kind of ran like that all the time as if I had been smoking. I sounded like that. But, you know, it's hard because I would say I'm fairly convinced of things, but then we also our actions. So I get in my car and I. I turn on. I turn the key and I'm like, I do that because I'm certain it's going to start. You know, if it doesn't, it's like, whoa, what's wrong?

[24:13] Matt: Right?

[24:14] Michael: And so it shows me that something I was certain of is actually didn't happen, but it should have happened. And. But that also tells me it's like it's happened so many times that there's something wrong. Kind of go back to the starter thing, you know. You know, every Wednesday night I come over here because I'm certain that's what I'm supposed to do and that you're going to welcome me into your house. The day that you just like, look at, look at me through the window and be like, no, Flippy the bird. Yeah.

[24:45] Matt: What are you doing here? Well, aren't we surrounded with that little micro example you gave all the time? None of us, when we go to start our car, have the thought, I wonder if it will start unless you happen to have a car. My first car in high school was nicknamed the Hunka Junk and some of the fun problems that one had were that it would. Oh, no, that wasn't that car. I had a car at the same time as I had the hunk of junk. I had two hunks of junk. And one of them did not have a working gas gauge. So you never knew how much gas was in the tank.

[25:35] Michael: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[25:36] Matt: And you might think, well, just fill it up and watch the odometer. Well, the odometer was broken. And also there was a hole in the gas tank so you couldn't fill it all the way up. And so you never knew how much gas was in the car, which means you ran out of gas all the time. Anyway, most of us, when we go to start our car, the thought doesn't cross our mind, is this going to start? And then when it doesn't start, you're like, where am I? What reality am I in? Yeah, these kinds of things happen, you know, all the time. You get in a car wreck like you expected. You woke up that morning, your day was going to go X, Y and Z. We're going to go into this town and do this, that, and the other. And then all of a sudden you get hit and your plans are utterly changed. You're not doing anything you had planned on doing.

[26:23] Michael: Yeah.

[26:26] Matt: And it knocks you into a different kind of reality because our perception of reality is so based upon our expectations. And that when something knocks our expectations loose, it feels like we're in a different reality, even though we're not.

[26:45] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting. What? It comes back to sort of the idea of truth, too. It's like you have this. This sort of schematic of how reality works. And, you know, you keep operating on that schematic and all of a sudden, like you're somewhere where you did not expect to be. Like, how did I get here? It's like, oh, somewhere I went wrong, you know, And I think that's. It's like, I see that business with my family, with life, with, you know, like, all kinds of things. It's like my schematic needs to be updated. But there's. There's a. I operate with a certain certitude, you know, certainty with it. Yeah.

[27:35] Matt: I don't know.

[27:36] Michael: Can you be certain about anything? Or maybe I'm just getting stuck in a semantic.

[27:42] Matt: Well, I don't think it's a trivial question. I mean, solipsism is a concept which exists which basically says the only thing I can be certain of is my own mind, like my own experience of existence. I Can't be certain of anything else. So certainly I can be certain that people have struggled over this question.

[28:08] Michael: Oh, that's true. It's almost like you can be certain of the negative and less certain about the positive.

[28:17] Matt: I feel like I can be certain that the sun is going to rise.

[28:20] Michael: Oh, that's true. It's a high probability that it would rise.

[28:27] Matt: I mean, there are things in our life that are so dependable that you can set your watch by it. Yeah. Or plot a course across the Atlantic Ocean. The stars are pretty reliable. But can you imagine living 400 years ago and an eclipse happens? It's like you're certain the sun is going to rise, and then at this time. And it's going to set at this time, and then middle of the day, it just goes black. How disturbing that would be.

[28:59] Michael: Totally not having the concept of. Yeah, that's. I really am kind of. Now. It kind of feels like being certain about anything is more of a declaration to be wrong.

[29:23] Matt: I wonder if there's any connection between the idea of certainty and the statement Jesus makes that when he says, there is no greater love than this, that a man would lay his life down for his friend. Is that sort of the ultimate expression of certainty? If I will give my life for

[29:43] Michael: something interesting,

[29:47] Matt: I cannot be more certain about anything than that which I would give my life for.

[29:51] Michael: Yeah, because you're giving up the very thing that allows you to evaluate certainty.

[29:58] Matt: Yeah.

[29:59] Michael: Well, like, I guess that kind of goes back to, like, what would you die for? You know, I think that would tell you what you're actually certain about.

[30:13] Matt: Well, and maybe another clue into this is, like, you know, Jesus renames Simon to Peter. He says, you will be the rock that my church is built on. Seems pretty certain. The rock. But Peter's the one who refused to die for Christ on the night of Christ's arrest, you know, he denied that he knew him because he was afraid that they would kill him if he didn't.

[30:46] Michael: Or even what the Jews would think of him for eating with Gentiles. You know, it's like, okay, you won't even eat with Gentiles, but you give your life for Christ.

[30:57] Matt: Well, and ultimately he did give his life for Christ.

[30:59] Michael: You know, but that seem like it's. There's a process involved.

[31:02] Matt: Like, as

[31:07] Michael: I feel like I want to redefine certainty, because I don't. I. I'm having a hard time with the. The certainty behind certainty.

[31:21] Matt: Yeah.

[31:22] Michael: Plus, I don't want to get stuck in semantics either.

[31:25] Matt: Do you want another Definition.

[31:27] Michael: Yeah, give me another definition.

[31:28] Matt: Let's do Merriam Webster. The quality or state of being certain, especially on the basis of evidence. I really don't like definitions that reuse the word in them. So I got to go look up the definition of certain. Of a specific but unspecified. Oh, no. Yeah. Fixed or settled. Of a specific or unspecified character, quantity or degree. The house has a certain charm. Now we're getting down the rabbit hole. Yeah. I feel like, you know, even so, if I probe, I thought, well, I think there's some people that I'm certain that they love me, but my certainty has been shaken in some instances of that. And I feel like there are people that I'm certain that I love, but my certainty has been shaken in certain instances. So even when I think I'm certain, I can find that I'm not. That I'm not. Right. I'm not. It's not true.

[32:41] Michael: I think. I think it has to. I don't actually don't believe. Like, it carries the weight that I'm attributing it to. It, like, to be certain, like, the evidence leads me to believe.

[32:57] Matt: And I think you're hedging too much, though.

[33:03] Michael: Well, because, like, that's the only thing you can be certain about, is like, something had to kind of prove itself to at least. At least demonstrate itself. Reliable. But, I mean, in everything that breaks down, at some point, you could maybe say, like, not with God or something like that. I think you could probably go there.

[33:34] Matt: I kind of wonder if certainty requires a degree of faith. You know, I'm just imagining a scenario, you know, you and I, and let's say our wives. I don't have a wife. But you and I and our wives, we rent an Airbnb. We're on a vacation place we've never been, town we don't know. You know, we're up drinking wine, cooking dinner, and you see another. A fifth person in the home shouldn't be there. You don't know them. Right. They just walk around a corner and you go, there's someone here. And we're like, what? What are you talking about? And we all get the hair raises on your skin. You all get a little bit scared. And I go. I go, look, I don't see anybody. Michael, are you certain you saw someone? You're like, yes. And then you start doubting yourself maybe a little bit. So you go, I don't know this place very well. Was it something out of my peripheral vision or a curtain or something like that? It's like, are You. But if there is somebody there, there's not a plausible explanation for their being there except to be malicious in some way. And you have your woman to protect. And so you are, I think, through faith in what, I don't exactly know. But you are going to adopt certainty, and you are not going to let that certainty go until you're sort of certain, in the negative. In some sense, it's like we're going to tear that house apart until we know that we're safe. And then maybe we're even going to go outside and maybe we're even going to call the cops, you know? But I think that there's an aspect of why I have faith in my own ability to ascertain reality, to trust my senses. Maybe if you're a little drunk, you're like, well, maybe I shouldn't trust myself that much. But you're like, I have faith in myself that I saw someone. I'm going with certainty. Because if I don't go with certainty, the risk is that one of us gets murdered.

[36:05] Michael: I. Yeah. So hard example, I don't know. It is. I mean, it makes sense to me and I feel like I could use certain certainty in that example, but it still doesn't carry the same weight that I attribute to certainty. And I think I'm attributing this sort of like, I know without a doubt, no questions asked, that this is true. And I feel like I could say that, but I would sort of like, I'd have to put like a percentage, like 80, 20.

[36:36] Matt: But wasn't that the exact problem that caused Descartes to say, I think, therefore I am? It was sort of his version of solipsism, right? Like he was trying to find things that he knew to be true and the only one he could find was I think, therefore I am. Everything else he thought was true. When he scrutinized it, he realized that it was some version of I only know that's true because someone I trust told me.

[37:06] Michael: I think I just, I see it more in probabilities, like, I don't even think that's that statement. And this is. The philosopher may probably like, I think, therefore I am. As like, well, you think, what does that even mean? Like, I am. Like, who are you? What is I am? You know, just even the statement brings up so many questions. It's like the probability, like, I interact in this world and I've known you for a long time. So it's like, it's very high probability of the things that I know and understand. About you and our relationship, you know, it was maybe 90, 10, you know, that there's something about you that would completely surprise me. And like, whoa, that's not the mat I knew. But it's like I am certain about you, you know, it's like I know that when I come on Wednesday nights that you're here, you know, I know you're a good friend. You know, it's like I know that, you know, you have kids, you know, just. There's so many things. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's like I'm certain that you have two kids, you know, three kids, four kids. Sorry, I was just thinking about the two there.

[38:19] Matt: There's two here currently. I just had a lot more kids in rapid succession right then.

[38:24] Michael: Oh, man, you're like a rabbit.

[38:27] Matt: Well, I find it interesting. It seems like there is this landscape which is laying out in front of us with this conversation, where on the one hand you have solipsism and you have Descartes not able to verify anything except for the fact that he exists. And his evidence for that is that I think it's like. Because I think I am. I know I am, Sam. I am. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have faith as being certain of what you cannot see. And it seems to me like if true certainty is to be found, it is found in that direction. The more I try to be certain of something for which I have evidence, the less I can be certain of. But the more I am certain of. Well, the truth is maybe one way to say it, that it exists, even if I don't have access to it by faith. My certainty grows in what I do not know.

[39:42] Michael: Well, I think that's probably those things. I would say I'm pretty certain. Pretty certain. Certain about is like, that there is an objective reality and I have a subjective experience of it. Because if there's not an objective reality, then there's nothing to be certain of, you know, or there's nothing to actually explore, to be known. Because everything is subjective and at the whim of my interpretation of that. So, like, I feel like there are some things that I'm probably most certain about, and that's. That's one of them. And also the paradox of.

[40:18] Matt: I was reading this quote from C.S. lewis where he talks about. And it'll be really difficult for me to recite it, so maybe I'll look it up in a moment. But he talks about how the fact that he can think is, for him, evidence of God, because he says the Idea that sort of the. If I am not created, the idea that the atoms and molecules of myself, my body, my brain, should come together in fire in such a way that I have a sensation which I call thinking, is no more plausible to me than disturbing a milk jug and somehow the splatters drawing a map of London. And he says something like, and therefore, because I think there must be a God, and if there is no God, how does he put it? Then I have no. I have no reason to trust my thoughts and therefore no reason to reason about atheism, which I thought was fascinating. It's like we've talked some about John Lennox making this similar argument. It's like rationality itself completely vaporizes without God. And so it is actually, I think maybe by faith I have certainty about what I cannot see, that being God, that being the truth. And it is by that act that reason itself arises. It's by that act that rationality itself arises. It's by that act of faith in being certain of what I do not see that I can hope to be certain of anything at all. That I can even play the probabilities game and say I'm 99% sure

[42:22] Michael: that

[42:22] Matt: Michael is sitting in front of me right now. Maybe I leave a 1% or a 0.1% chance that this is actually a dream and in a moment I'll wake up, because dreams can be that way. But it is only by faith in what I cannot see that the game of certainty even arises in that. It's interesting to me that the faith presupposes the certainty that then opens up as an option inside of this bubble of time that we're in, meaning we're inside of time. We are in the world. We are in this story. We're not outside of it. There is something outside of it. And without that external reference point which you and I have been talking a lot late about lately, there is no such thing as certainty within the system.

[43:23] Michael: Yeah. You just take science, for example. It's like, just even to do. Even start the act of science, you have to have faith that there is something that's reliable and consistent.

[43:34] Matt: Yeah.

[43:36] Michael: Because without that faith, then you know, and you do science and you're like, oh, wow, this is fairly reliable and consistent. So therefore we can make conclusions and deductions and hypothesis. That's interesting. I think you do see, like, how faith kind of presupposes any sort of, like, action in the world. But I think we sometimes take that for granted too, because there is something, the reliability of the world around us is fairly consistent. And so we kind of just take that for granted almost.

[44:15] Matt: Well, we kind of have to, right?

[44:16] Michael: Yeah.

[44:18] Matt: You'd be quite a wreck if you. Every night you went to bed, you wondered whether the sun was going to rise.

[44:23] Michael: Totally. Well, I don't know if I can make this point, but I was kind of doing more reading on some back behind the scenes of T.S. eliot and some of the more macro understanding of the Four Quartets. And, oh, the too much backstory that

[44:45] Matt: I forgot my entry point.

[44:52] Michael: Oh, that's what it was. That, you know, a lot of times, like, you know, T.S. eliot talks about this still point, like the, you know. You know, neither here nor there. It's like when you're dancing with somebody and you don't know that you're dancing, you're just dancing. You're caught up in it. And after you've danced, you're like, oh, wow, I was dancing. But when you're actually dancing, you're not. You're not dancing. If you're aware that you are dancing. Like, you lose time.

[45:22] Matt: You're dancing badly.

[45:23] Michael: Yeah, you're dancing badly. Same thing with, like, music or, you know, you're playing a song or something like that. It's like, once you can actually acknowledge or see that, hey, look, I just played a song, it's like, you're no longer playing the song. But the thing is, you can't live in that space all the time. And so there's a certain amount of. You learn things from being in that space that then you kind of develop disciplines around. It's like, okay, well, in order for me to play this song, I need to practice chords or sing this thing, or in order to dance, I need to know the steps. I need to, you know, get better at this. So there's a certain amount of discipline so that when you are actually doing the thing, it's like. But in doing the thing, you. You actually. It's almost like you become most aware of it. So, like, like. And then it kind of provides a certain certitude that. Or certainty with it, because you've actually experienced it and tasted it, and you want to get back to that, whatever that was. Well, that's what's.

[46:32] Matt: What's interesting in those examples is that in those cases, the thing that undermines certainty is, in a sense, awareness.

[46:45] Michael: Oh, wow, that's interesting.

[46:48] Matt: So my son and I had to take his car to the shop to get something fixed, and we were in the sort of, you know, I don't know, the den of the guy who owned the shop, you know, the place where his desk is, it's not exactly a lobby. It's full of stuff. And there was a Rubik's Cube sitting there. My son went and picked it up. And when my son was young, we got into Rubik's Cubes a little bit, and he got very good. Like, he could solve a Rubik's Cube. And I remember that it's like five or six seconds. I don't know what his ultimate record ended up being, but he got very good at it. So he picked up this Rubik's Cube, and he was trying to solve it, and it was like a minute had gone by, two minutes. And I was like, did you lose the skill? Like, where did it go? He goes, no, it's just like. It's not. It doesn't move very well. It's kind of bound up. And so my muscles can't do their memory, and I don't have the information in my head anymore, but I can feel it's in my fingers. So he went and looked it up, and he's like, oh, right, that move, that move, that. And he solved it. And I was like, isn't that fascinating that when you get good at something, the information goes away, but the knowledge remains? I haven't played piano very much over the last 20 years, but I am certain that if I sat down on a piano right now, I could play you Clair de Lune. Unless I said, I'm gonna sit down and play you Clair de Lune. Because once the awareness comes, part of the awareness is, actually, I'm not sure I remember it, but I guarantee you it's in my fingers. And if I didn't plan it and I just sat down at a piano, I'd probably just start playing it without thinking about it. It's a very strange thing that the information can be gone and the knowledge can remain. And maybe the original definition, we were talking about certainty being rooted in facts and evidence. But almost everything that we're certain of, by the time we're certain of it, we've lost the facts and evidence.

[49:08] Michael: Or even the question's kind of been is like, what are you certain about? And it's like, now I'm trying to explain that, but I don't act as if I'm not certain about things. I act as if I am certain.

[49:21] Matt: It's only when you are attempting to scrutinize your certainty that you doubt the certainty.

[49:28] Michael: Yeah. Which one? I guess reaction to that would it be, is like, okay, well, don't ever question anything.

[49:37] Matt: Well, it might be like, I've never been skydiving, but if you go skydiving for the first time and you're strapped to the dude and you go through the preparation, you get in the plane, you fly up to 15,000ft and then he pushes you up to the edge of the door and he goes, do you trust that I'm going to hold you? You'd probably be like, well, I did until you just asked me. Is there some reason I should be concerned here? There was an SNL skit about this recently where it's like the guy, the instructor on the way up was talking about how he had just gotten a divorce and all these terrible things had happened to him and they were like, I don't think we should be joking.

[50:19] Michael: That's a fascinating insight. Like, I wasn't doubting until you asked me.

[50:23] Matt: Yeah.

[50:24] Michael: And now I'm like, it's like you're activating your left brain or something like that. Where it's like, now I'm trying to, trying to justify like why I am certain. But up until this point, you know, like a child trusts their parents and there's not a doubt there.

[50:47] Matt: Yeah. This whole summer I've been taking my two year old swimming pool. Teaching her to swim has been so fun because of all of my four children, she's been the most fearless, which has also been kind of fearful for me because she will jump in. She cannot swim, but that does not stop her from wanting to jump in. And I can imagine, and I love it. I'm trying to stop and try to get her to understand rules like, you cannot jump in unless I'm already in. And when I get in and then she jumps into me, it's like fucking awesome. It's just the coolest thing. But I guess I can't imagine, like, if I, if I said, are you confident that I'm gonna catch you? And she might be young enough where she'd be like, yeah, 100%, let's go. But there are questions like that you can ask where that actually instills a lack of confidence. It's like, wait, I was, I think until you asked me. Now I have to catalog all the reasons that I may not be. Because to search for the confidence, it's like you go through your files, you're like, am I confident? Let me think about all the ways that my confidence could be broken. And you arrive at something less than confidence.

[52:04] Michael: Which is interesting too. I mean, you even take that to relationships where when a Relationship is new. It's like you take a lot more for granted as far as, like, and kind of willing to sort of trust. You know, I. I'm kind of thinking, like, when you get past that, like, the uncertainty of a relationship, you know, as far as, like, okay, I don't know about you, but then you get caught up in the relationship and like, nothing can go wrong almost. And then things start to go wrong. And so there's something about that sort of awakening too, to like. Like, what. What is it that you're actually trusting? And I think that. I think those are hard. Or you think of like, you know, kids and when they hit adolescence, it's like they kind of start to rebel against anything that was trustworthy or even it might not. May or may not have been trustworthy. But let's just say, like, you know, fairly good parents and like, these sort of like, rebellion is sort of like their world kind of starts to crumble around them. Like, what do I trust in? What do I have? And it just seems like that's kind of like a natural because I. I even think, like, for myself whenever I come across something new, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, that is amazing. That's like a. The insight that kind of elevates me. And then at some point it starts to break down again and. But it's kind of like it's. It's sort of. It's sort of growing. It's like, I guess in this way it's. You could almost say, like, this is how your faith grows. Is. Is like there is a sort of like, certainty. And at some point that certainty is challenged. And then if you sort of cower away from it, then it sort of deteriorates, you know, but if you sort of push into it, it can actually grow and. And become something more like more faith, you know? But I think that's also hard for whenever you have faith in something that is not worth having faith in or the certainty actually is not in there. Like, that can be crumbling, you know, like a child who can't actually trust their. Their parent. Like, it's like, I'm like, I don't. Who can I trust? Yeah, it's like, I don't have any examples or any experience of being able to trust or have faith in somebody, because there's a difference. Being able to have trust or faith in somebody, and they let you down. But they continue to. To show back up and. And demonstrate that, no, I am reliable, I will let you down, but I am reliable, you know, you can, you can trust me. And. And so in a. In a human sense, it's like. It's like you learn to be able to trust people because without trust, then, you know, business can't happen. Relationships can't happen. It's like there has to be some level of trust or faith. I'm starting to kind of intertwine trust and faith here. I don't know if that's.

[55:05] Matt: I mean, it seems appropriate to me. Which just made me think about how in the early 90s, before I could drive and had a car, it's like everywhere you went, if you were, you know, taken to school, school's out, you're waiting to be picked up. When are you going to get picked up? I don't know when the last bell rings, plus or minus an hour, you know, And I remember many times where I would be sitting there thinking, I don't know when they're coming. I have no way of checking. I have no way. You know, it's like. But I. I'm. I have no doubts that my mom's not coming. I'm sure she'll be here.

[55:50] Michael: Or if not, there's a good excuse for it.

[55:51] Matt: A good excuse for it. And I remember there was one time. So we have Six Flags in San Antonio, which was the largest or the city near where I grew up. Grew up about 30 minutes outside of it, which in those days, 30 minutes outside of a city was the middle of nowhere, basically. Significant.

[56:13] Michael: Yeah.

[56:14] Matt: And so we would. It wasn't a Six Flags at the time. It was called Fiesta Texas and was awesome. When I was in middle school, me and all my friends would get season passes and it was the. It was our version of the mall. Like, we never really went to the mall. We went to Six Flags or to Fiesta Texas, you know, and one parent would drive us all and drop us off at, you know, midday, and we'd stay there until it closed. But I was there one time, and one of the. I think generally one of the kids. Parents would always chaperone. And there was one kid's parents, and I wanted to do something, for whatever reason, I was going to be left to do it on my own. I wanted to go on some ride, right? So I go on this ride and the parents said, you know, meet us back here at this bench. And I said, okay, great. So I did my ride. I went, sat on the bench. I waited. An hour went by, two hours went by, three hours went by. Sun goes down, I'm sitting on this bench. Nothing I can do. I'M like, if I get up and leave the bench and then they show up, whatever reason their further delay it might have been, well, now I'm lost. They're lost. If I stay and something's wrong, I don't have any way to find out and know. So you're presented with this problem. It's like I'm. I don't really have any doubts that they're going to find me or I'm going to find them. But for the moment I don't have a way to make that happen. And the best way logic I can come up with in my 12 year old brain, 11 year old brain, is, well, I said I'd wait at the bench, so I'm waiting at the bench. So finally they come and they claim I was at the wrong bench. Oh no, I say they claim because I am certain I was at the right bench.

[58:25] Michael: That's awesome.

[58:26] Matt: But is it was I. I don't know, was it a miscommunication? Who knows? But it just strikes me that life was a lot more like that. A lot more like, well, I have faith that they will come. I'm not certain of the time. I'm not even certain I'm in the right place. I have faith that my mom's coming to pick me up. I have no way of knowing, which means I'm certain of what I cannot see. And maybe this goes back to that Napoleon quote that we started on is like, what is it about the Christ that breaks down all barriers of time and space and speaks to US so passionately 2000 years later, there does seem to be some, something like a certainty in it that we are all drawn to and perhaps because it's the only place we can find any certainty. It's difficult for me to find certainty in love. It's difficult for me to find certainty in human behavior. I mean, I think because of the weird sort of people that you and I are, I'm like almost more certain that we're going to podcast every Wednesday night than anything else in my life. You are going to show up, up. And this is, this is to the extent that like you text me between 4:52 and 5:03 every Wednesday and say, headed your way?

[60:05] Michael: Yeah.

[60:06] Matt: There was one day, 5:15 came around and I actually thought, I need to call Allison. I thought it would be more efficient for me to call Allison than to call Michael because Michael's definitely dead and he's not going to answer the phone. You know, because you were eight minutes late on your text, it's Just how reliable you are. And I think you and I are both very much men of habit and men of ritual. And like, I can rely on those things, you know. But in a strange kind of way, I'm not as certain about that as I am about the power of Christ. He somehow. I mean, how did Napoleon put it? Let's pull it back up.

[60:54] Michael: Talking about the ask of a heart, That's really fascinating.

[61:05] Matt: He said, the phenomenon is unaccountable. It is altogether beyond the scope of man's creative powers. Time, the great destroyer, is powerless to extinguish this sacred flame. Time can neither exhaust its strength nor put a limit to its range. It is beyond the scope of man's creative power. There's a sense in which when I read the Bible or when I think about the life of Jesus, or I think about the. What seemed to me the paradoxes in his teachings, there's a part of me that goes, I have never even been close to creative enough to come up with this. And I don't by any stretch of the imagination imagine myself as close to the most creative human being. But the older I get and the more time I spend with this, what I will call a truth, the truth of the Bible, the more I think it is beyond the scope of any man's creative power to have affected it, to have written it, to have created it, or to have made something with power that reaches through millennia and inspires the most impassioned responses we've ever seen.

[62:36] Michael: Well, I am curious, like, because it's really fascinating. I mean, toot my horn. It's like. It's like, why is Jesus more reliable than me? I am here every Wednesday.

[62:47] Matt: I know, right?

[62:47] Michael: You know, but, I mean, I say it kind of half just, but also kind of. It does kind of prove a point. Like. Like I'm tangible. Like, I come here.

[62:55] Matt: Yeah.

[62:57] Michael: And yet something that is intangible has more reality than the certainty of me being here on a Wednesday. I would love to know more of what gave you that, if that makes sense. Because as you're saying, I was also kind of looking inside of myself, I think the same way that you do in this area. And I just.

[63:26] Matt: But why?

[63:27] Michael: But why?

[63:29] Matt: Okay, two answers. And the first is one I said a couple of episodes back I think might have been more than that because it was having to do with Easter. And.

[63:40] Michael: Yeah, that was like, March.

[63:45] Matt: If the resurrection happened, it's the most important thing that's ever happened in history. It's not even close. It's not even. There's no second place there.

[63:55] Michael: Yeah.

[63:56] Matt: Okay, so consider that. And I do believe it happened. Which means there is something more certain in that space or that area than anything I see. Touch, smell, hear. Second answer. There's an aspect of you and I's relationship which has nothing to do with your physical reliability. I would say the majority of our relationship is. It exists in this sort of liminal space of what we're doing right now, which, yes, we do do that every Wednesday, but we also do it other times. And sometimes I do it. You're not even here. Have a conversation with you in my head, totally. Because of the depth and the length of our relationship. You bring this up all the time. It's like sometimes you'll say, oh, yeah, I had this idea. Actually, maybe you had that idea. I don't know. We had that idea. You know, you arrive at things together. There's no sense in claiming it as your own. And there's a way in which I'm more certain about that part of our relationship than I am about the fact that you're going to knock on my door at 5pm or 5:15 or whatever. And to take it a step further, there will be a day that you don't show up or that you show up and I'm not here. And in a way that almost could make me weep right now just thinking about it, that will be a horrible day. Because one of us will have left this earth, and yet our relationship will not be over. Because this. What we're doing, this fellowship, will continue on. And you might call it grief. You might say, grief is just the inside of love, but it will not have decreased. And in some way, it actually might increase. And so what is it that I should be more certain about? That you will knock on that door? Or that my communion with you will not be extinguished even when you don't? Even though I might like it to. Because grief can do that to you. Grief can make you say, I wish I could never. I wish I would stop waking up thinking about my dad. I want relief from the grief. And you might say that about me when I'm gone. And so again, back to certainty. What is it that you're more certain of? My physical existence or that. That thing which you can't turn off even if you want to?

[67:22] Michael: Yeah.

[67:27] Matt: Wow.

[67:27] Michael: Okay. I'm trying to put that into my own words because there's something fascinating about that. Because the meaning of our relationship is not me showing up. It's what happens in what we share. Not even physical space, but also Just the impact, like, the impact that you've had on my life is also that same sort of, like, it's still something you share. The impact that your father had on your life, you're still carrying that forward. And so it's interesting because you kind of see that same idea with Jesus is like, the impact that he had on so many other people's lives and directly with those who, you know, confess him. It's like. It's like it has a direct impact on your life. So it's something even more real than actually meeting him in the flesh. You know, it's like. I mean, that's. The whole thing is like, that's also promises, like, hey, I will come to you and also give you a helper. And it's like. It's like. So there's something that. That whenever you follow Jesus is like, he actually starts to form that similar relationship that you're talking about. Like, what you and I have. It's like, what is. What is our relationship? It's not me showing up. It's. It's this. It's a. It's all these things that happen in the. In between. It's like almost like the still point, you know, it's like, where it's like, you can't say, like, oh, you know, like, what is Matt? And your relationship is like, well, I can tell you all the things we do, but that's not our relationship. Our relationship is all these things we share in this place that we can't. If we were to name it at that time, it would mean nothing. You know,

[69:30] Matt: I mean, there's something about depth and width there, too, because. Let me put it this way, CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien were friends. I would say very good friends. I think, as I understand it, Tolkien had an effect on Lewis becoming a Christian. And in that way, perhaps one of the most influential evangelicals of all time, certainly second behind Paul the Apostle. But I would put him close. What was more real, The friendship between Tolkien and Lewis or the Lord of the Rings? What was more real, the friendship between Tolkien and Lewis or the Chronicles of Narnia?

[70:44] Michael: Maybe I'm missing your point, Luke.

[70:46] Matt: Yeah, well, two things jump out at me, and one is the problem of measurement. It's like, how do you answer a question like that? What am I supposed to measure two works of fiction against a real relationship that actually happened between two men? What do you measure? So that's a problem. But if I take a stab at it and I say, well, their relationship was between two real people, that makes it more real. But then on the other side of that. And I say, what? And they spent this many years together and they formed this group called the Inklings, and they went to the Child and Rose Pub and all of these things happened. All of these were real. Very, very real. The most real thing. But I counter that and say, but they also both wrote, in my example, a piece of fiction that went on to have extraordinarily real relationships with millions and millions, billions of people. And you might say, well, the fiction isn't real. Frodo doesn't exist.

[72:08] Michael: Okay.

[72:10] Matt: Samwise doesn't exist. Lucy doesn't exist. Aslan doesn't exist. But what does exist? The changed hearts of billions of people. And in a way, I can almost say that's more real. And you and I's relationship is very real to you and I. But it may be according to the depth of our relationship. We don't know how real the fruits of it may end up being. And it might supersede us. And I think, in a sense, Christ is the only singular figure in which it's not simply the fruits of his realness that propagate, but it is he himself. He is so real that it is both him who he was and what he did and how he acted when he was here on this earth. And the ramifications of that, that echoed not through decades and not through centuries, but through millennia. And not as a product or a fruit of that realness, but as the realness itself, reaching out unaccountable altogether beyond the scope of man's creative powers. Time itself powerless to extinguish this sacred flame.

[74:01] Michael: Let me see if I'm kind of catching this, because you're. You're. You're kind of stirring something up here. And I don't think I gotta have a grasp on it, but. Because.

[74:08] Matt: Oh, I don't have a grasp on it.

[74:09] Michael: Oh, you sound like you do. Well, I find it fascinating to you, brought in sort of like, you know, Chronicles, Narnia and Lord of the Rings, and how that echoes through time as a story of something that happened. And so, you know, then you kind of have the Bible when it chronicles, you know, Jesus's life, New Testament, and, like, that's something that's real that happened, you know, and that has sort of like, the same, like, existence that Chronic Chronicles novelty, Lord of the Rings has, like. It echoes throughout and changes you. Because, I mean, when I read both of those things, like. Like, it did change me. Like, there was something with that, but then there's Something with. It's like, it almost carries a. Both and in this, because not only do you have the story, but the story actually points to a person that then you can enter into that relationship as if C.S. lewis and Tolkien. And like, that's kind of what Jesus saying is like, yes, here's the story of me. And it points to actually us having this relationship together. So it's not just a. A byproduct of a. Of a life lived. It's actually a. There's something. There's something more connected with the story of Jesus and then the person of Jesus.

[75:56] Matt: Yeah. Something I notice is that, you know, if you tell me, you know, hey, Matt, Frodo isn't real, my objection to that would be, what are you talking about? He's real. I know because I'm him. I'm Frodo. It's like, that's how we read story. You say, gollum isn't real. He's a fiction. It's like, no, I know he's real because he's me. I am that way. And I find it really interesting that Christ makes exactly that claim about who he is and about his relationship with us. He says, no one comes to the Father except through Me, and I am in the Father, and he is in Me, and I am in you. No one will bear fruit unless they are attached to the vine. I am the vine, you are the branches. He's saying this is the realest version of that phenomenon.

[77:25] Michael: Oh, fascinating. Okay.

[77:30] Matt: And what are we called? What are we called? What does Christ call us to? To be him, not like him. Him. This is a very strange thing. We are called to be like Christ, but the ultimate sanctification is to be made. Christ is to, however you want to look at it, enter the story so fully that you become. Or to be. Or maybe you invert it and say, no, the story is what I'm living. And my true identity is to be pulled out of that is to be rescued by Gandalf and the eagles on wings from Mount Doom and flown away.

[78:31] Michael: Okay, let me kind of see. I keep. As you keep kind of like unpacking this, it's like I keep seeing things and I don't know exactly what I'm seeing, but I. Cause like. Like in any story, you're going to identify with the characters. And honestly, like, all the characters are you in some form or fashion.

[78:59] Matt: Right. Which is what makes them real.

[79:02] Michael: Yeah, you can identify with them. And it's funny because someone's like, oh, you don't identify with Some of the evil characters, it's like, no, that's also you.

[79:10] Matt: Well, the most evil characters are the ones that you identify with. Those are the most evil. Because that is scary as shit when you identify with it.

[79:22] Michael: But then it's interesting because when Jesus is talking about, I am the Father, the Father is in me and I am in you. It's like that's actually an identity that we can point to. I don't know how to go there, because what I want to say is I feel like I'm seeing this part where that Jesus is stating this. This reality that, like, if you come and follow me, it's like, I'm going to create my life in you. And you see this in minor ways where, you know, Frodo or Aragorn or something like that. It's like. Or even like Michael Jordan, you know, it's like you imitate Michael Jordan and it's like. It's almost like. Like Michael Jordan becomes a part of you, you know? And obviously you're not. Can't move like Michael Jordan. But it's like. But there's something like. There's something true about that. Like, you know, you have mentors, you have. It's like Jesus is saying, like, I am the highest of that ability. Like. Like, you come to me as you've come to Frodo or as you've come to Michael Jordan, as you've come to different people to emulate and to actually take them onto yourself. And it actually changes you by doing that. It changes you. And Jesus basically saying, if you take me upon yourself, I am the most change. I'm the highest.

[81:04] Matt: I'm the highest order example of that.

[81:06] Michael: Yeah, but you do it. And I mean, we do it with ourselves, too. It's like, was it my thought or your thoughts? Yeah, it's like, well, in some way that's like I've taken you on myself.

[81:15] Matt: Yeah.

[81:15] Michael: And so I was like, I don't know where I end and you begin in some. In some regard, you know, And Jesus saying, like, I am the highest order of that relationship.

[81:26] Matt: Yeah, that's really good.

[81:29] Michael: I think so. There's so many more. You've kind of, like, opened up a whole package for me to kind of like, here.

[81:35] Matt: It's called a care package. Well, I'll just call us back to. I love that. The. The highest order example of relationship. Because when I read the Lord of the Rings, it's like, gosh, I'm Gollum. Shit, I'm Aragorn. Oh, no, I'm Denethor. You know, and Christ is saying, come to me and be me.

[82:20] Michael: Take on my mantle.

[82:21] Matt: Yeah, And I'm. Because you use the word identity, you know, and when I read a story like Lord of the Rings and I wonder who I am, the answer scares me a bit, because I want to be Gandalf. But best case scenario, I think I'm probably Strider,

[82:43] Michael: which is interesting because it's a form of Aragorn.

[82:45] Matt: You know, a form of Aragorn, but not quite Aragorn. And what does Aragorn have to do to become. What's his ultimate name? Because he has that necklace with the.

[82:58] Michael: Mithrandir. No, that's Mithrandir.

[83:00] Matt: Is Gandalf.

[83:01] Michael: Gandalf

[83:04] Matt: something that he has, like a green jewel on a necklace anyway? Well, it's a great example. Is one of the reasons I think Tolkien's such a great writer is everyone has multiple names. Because who are you? Well, you're a collection of identities that many times don't know who they are. I don't know if, you know, I'm Denethor or Theoden, if I'm Gollum or Frodo. And there's something of an existential crisis that comes up when you read a story like that because it causes you to reflect on yourself. And I think that the thing that causes Christ to be not only a story, but a reality that breaks the chains of time is he says, do you want to know what your true identity is? I can tell you. I am in you. You are me. And guess what? The reality of that's gonna fuck you up hard.

[84:12] Michael: That's great. Oh, d. I think this is the part of the podcast where we probably need to head to the porch because I have too much silence in me

[84:32] Matt: right now to, like, it's porch cast time.

[84:34] Michael: Porch cast time. Well, just let me just kind of like.

[84:38] Matt: No, I think it's a great place to leave it.

[84:40] Michael: Well, just kind of like, why this is kind of like. Because I find there's a few themes here that are. That I've been really thinking about is like, you know, like, what does it mean to follow Christ? And again, like, there's so many things that seem outlandish. And, like, even when I was watching the Chosen and Jesus started to actually identify with God, like you said last week, it violated my intellect when he started. Like, at first it was like, oh, Jesus is this man with good teaching. Like, I had that experience with him as I'm watching the Chosen. The movie or the. The series? And then all of A sudden he starts. Language starts to change into, like. Like, my father, you know, it's like I was like, oh, I understand, like, why the Jews hated him. It's like he's speaking differently. And his disciples were having a little bit of trouble with him because, like, wait a minute, Jesus, you're kind of speaking differently. Before, it was sort of, like, a little obscure, you know.

[85:38] Matt: Yeah. But making good points.

[85:40] Michael: Yeah. Hinting at being the Father and you. And. And then all of a sudden, he starts, like, shifting, and it's like, oh, no. Actually, that's something that you have to. You have to deal with. Is like, is Jesus a good man or is he the son of God? Well, he can only be the Son of God. He can't be a good man because he was crazy by what he was. By what he was, like, actually stating, you know? So it's like, I. And then this. It's interesting, too, because, like, if you take on that identity that Jesus says, it's like, it means something different for you. And that's the part that I'm kind of, like, right now, a little bit of a standstill with or the depth of it. I'm at a standstill with, not the reality of it.

[86:34] Matt: Well, yeah, I see it, and I see where it's leading, and I think we should leave it for tonight. I was a little worried at the beginning of this episode when we were getting caught up on the word certainty. We went some good places.

[86:49] Michael: That was good. Well, I was, like. So, like. I was, like, miffed. I was like, I want to get off of this fucking word certainty. I know, but I was like, it's still bothering me. I don't know.

[86:58] Matt: Well, it's like that thing, semantic satiation. Ted Lasso does such a great job with. It's like once a weird thing hits your brain, you're like, you can't let it go. And you're like, just fucking let it go.

[87:10] Michael: You know what helped me, like, move on? Not from the word certainty. It's like, oh, nobody really listens to this podcast. It doesn't matter. But you and I can kind of, like, play around with this word for as long as we want, as long as we want. But for all of us who did make it all the way, we love you.

[87:25] Matt: Nobody's charging us for this. This is free time, baby.

[87:28] Michael: Exactly.

[87:29] Matt: All right. That was good. Session at the Shores.

[87:33] Michael: Yeah, it was fun.

[87:33] Matt: Cheers out there. And if you're still listening. Thank you.

[87:36] Michael: And we love you.

[87:37] Matt: And we love you.

[87:44] Michael: I really did. I was like, I was like, oh, I should have to move on. I was like, this is for us. Like, yeah, we're gonna get stuck on this, and we're gonna, like, kind of like battle.