The Logos and the Lie

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Okay.

[0:23] Michael: All right.

[0:24] Matt: Oh. React centered.

[0:29] Michael: Centered, calm. I do some breathing exercise real quick. Oh, yeah. I got to do.

[0:34] Matt: Let's go there.

[0:34] Michael: To the shores. Cheers.

[0:35] Matt: To the shores. Do you still do breathing exercises?

[0:43] Michael: I do every morning.

[0:44] Matt: Yeah. Wim Hof.

[0:47] Michael: Yeah, I do two sets of Wim Hof and then. And then kind of some, like, minor stuff in between, so.

[0:54] Matt: But minor stuff.

[0:56] Michael: Yeah. Well, it kind of, like, just hodgepodges, those things, you know, so. Cause I like to. I'm in the sauna to, like, do some deep breathing just to get all that hot air into my nostrils.

[1:08] Matt: Nice.

[1:09] Michael: Yeah. But it is funny. Like, Allison's been starting to do breathing exercises also.

[1:16] Matt: Oh, cool.

[1:16] Michael: Yeah. Just kind of helping with stress and anxiousness and stuff. And so at night, sometimes I kind of laugh because we'll both go, like, breathe out. Maybe do a couple of those. Yeah. Which makes me feel better because I had to do that before I go to bed. So, like, just. You got a partner? I got a partner in it.

[1:38] Matt: Yeah. So sweet.

[1:39] Michael: I guess I just feel like I'm less annoying this way. She's doing it, too, Right? Because you do. You do three rounds in the morning, Is that right?

[1:48] Matt: I usually do two rounds in the morning, sometimes three.

[1:51] Michael: The. Yeah.

[1:52] Matt: And then I'll do. I've been doing a round of Wim Hof, like, when I get in bed.

[1:57] Michael: Yeah.

[1:58] Matt: It seems to help me fall asleep and stay asleep, so that's good.

[2:05] Michael: Yeah, Something about that, too. Like, even, like, work sometimes I just, like. It's like you're. I don't know what it is, but you're kind of doing shallow breathing throughout the day, and then they just kind of open your lungs back up.

[2:16] Matt: Yeah.

[2:16] Michael: And just, you know. Reoxynajate.

[2:19] Matt: Oxygen.

[2:20] Michael: I said that word.

[2:22] Matt: Oxygenate.

[2:23] Michael: Yeah. And then breathe out all the. All the bad air. All the evil spirits.

[2:27] Matt: Yeah. I really do. I visualize that. Not evil spirits, necessarily, but, you know, stress or anger or anxiety or if I've got, you know, anything I want to be free of, I just sort of imagine it leaving my body through my breath, which is helpful. I mean, when we read that James Nestor breath book a while back, one of the most shocking things he said to me was, most of when people lose weight, most of the weight is lost through your breath.

[3:03] Michael: Yeah. That baffled me.

[3:04] Matt: That's how it leaves your body, which is crazy.

[3:07] Michael: Yeah. I always thought it was sweat, but that's actually not.

[3:11] Matt: Yeah. It's not.

[3:12] Michael: Yeah, that's just waste water or no wastewater, retained water, and probably another stuff, too, but nothing. Yeah, but that's interesting. That kind of gets us in the topic we're kind of wanting to get into tonight, too, as far as, like, oh, do tell.

[3:32] Matt: I don't see the connection.

[3:33] Michael: You're breathing, and there's just sort of a symbolic thing that starts happening too, like, oh, wow, I'm breathing out the bad stuff. And there's something that kind of does to you just mentally, as far as, like, oh, there. I do have. I do have things that are inside me that I don't know or understand, but. And even, like, to qualify it as bad, it's just. I know that something is leaving me, you know?

[4:04] Matt: Yeah.

[4:04] Michael: And my mind is becoming clear again. So it's like something was fogging my. My sight, you know, so it's like. So it's fascinating because if you hadn't have done that, it's like you kind of operate in this. In this. In this kind of space or fog, you know? But then you kind of start to ask, like, well, how much fog am I actually operating in?

[4:28] Matt: You know, when you see it lift. Yeah, yeah.

[4:33] Michael: Because I mean, you see that too. It's like I'll be tolling on a problem, toiling away on a problem, and all of a sudden I'll just be

[4:39] Matt: like, tolling on a problem.

[4:42] Michael: I was trying to do too much of text and accent. I couldn't help it. And then all of a sudden I'll just stop, like, oh, I don't have to solve that right now. And just like, it lifts off of you. It's like, well, how many of those things are just like these stories or dialogues that are running underneath these scripts that are running underneath that are imprisoning, you know? And it's like, sort of like it's adhering to a logic or a reality that's not true. And until you acknowledge it or see it, it's. It sort of sticks on you, almost

[5:18] Matt: stays on you, sort of enslaves you,

[5:20] Michael: almost possesses you in a sense.

[5:22] Matt: It's a good word.

[5:24] Michael: Yeah. Do you see? I attach that to what we're talking about.

[5:29] Matt: Yeah, keep going.

[5:30] Michael: I don't know. You do so good about setting up what we're talking about. I just ramble.

[5:35] Matt: I'm following your lead at the mom.

[5:36] Michael: Well, something that you and I. You can kind of correct me where I get it wrong, but we were just kind of talking about just, like, higher logic and kind of a tied this to, like, you know, Jesus calls himself the Logos, or John calls Jesus the Logos.

[5:52] Matt: Yeah.

[5:52] Michael: In the beginning, it was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was God. And it's like the Word and that's logos. And so there's this really. There's this sort of, like, idea that there's this high. The highest logic you can have, which is God. You know, it's like. And. But then as you kind of, like, come down from that space, it's like you have these different realities that. That we all live in, you know, where. You know, there's a reality of where I need to go to work and pay my bills and feed my kids. And, you know, that's. There's a logical element to that, you know, but that's not what life's all about. There's actually something more and greater, you know, so. Yeah, so you can kind of start to see, like, this. This place, or even just like, you can live in this. In the space where, you know, Like a. Like a fear or something like that can kind of possess you. And now all your logic is situated around that fear. You know, like, if I believe outside, all there is is viruses and danger. Well, all my logic from that sort of environment and reality that I'm. That picture that I've been painting is like, I want to formulate a logic with that idea that outside is dangerous, outside will kill me, I will get sick or whatever, you know, and so you start operating with that logic, you know, So. I don't know. That's kind of. That's kind of what some of the things I was kind of getting from what you were talking about.

[7:23] Matt: Yeah, I'm trying to think. I want to back up and re. Enter it in a way, because I think we sort of tend to imagine that logic is what makes sense, that it's sort of like putting together pieces of a puzzle. Like, you dump all the pieces out on the table and you're looking for the right piece that goes here, the right piece that goes there, and, you know that there is a piece. And everybody can see and agree that when that piece goes in, it fits. And that's logical. And I think we imagine that's what logic is. You know, Logic is mathematics.

[8:07] Michael: Yeah.

[8:08] Matt: And maybe in one way it is, but something kind of opened up for me about this, and I'm trying to think of a good example, and I want to start with this one. So this is old in my life. This is a story about my divorce. And I want to tell it because it was a very Strange experience for me. I spent 11 years trying to essentially make myself one with a woman, and then I went through the disillusionment of that. And at the time, what it felt like to me, this very strange kind of thing occurred. And it wasn't that we disagreed. It's like we got divorced in part because we disagreed, but it was also, in a much truer sense, that agreement was no longer possible because it felt like over the course of the year that we were getting divorced. By the end of that time period, it felt to me like we were speaking different languages. We're both speaking speaking English. But it's like whatever my intent, you know, it's like when you. When you communicate with somebody, you're trying to. I have something in my head, this intent I want to express myself or I want to ask you a question, and I've learned these words that you also understand. And so I vocalize using, which is such a nutty process. It's like I have these cords that when I pass air over them, they vibrate the molecules in the air, and that vibrates the eardrums inside of your ear, and it oscillates little hairs on your cochlea. And you. In the intent in my head gets inserted into your head. Yeah. It's crazy, but it got to a point where it felt to me like that process had broken down. I could not figure out how to get my intent to land in her head. And it felt to me like whatever she was saying to me, I could not figure out how to understand it. And the analogy I used was like, when we were one, our sort of Venn diagram was mostly overlapped over the course of that year. It started to separate and separate and separate. And then the two edges of the circles split, and there was no way to. There's no common area by which you can stand on an appeal from. So appeal was not possible. Agreement or disagreement was also not possible. But I was thinking recently, and maybe it's because we've been talking about John, and this John one has come up a lot. We've read it, you know, sort of said it on the podcast several times. But I want to just read it. John says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God. In the beginning, through him, all things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. In this, it's one of my favorite verses. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. What is that? The word? And I think the underlying word there is Logos. And you think, you know, you read the account of Genesis that God spoke the world into existence, and John is saying it was this man that he's about to describe, Jesus, who through which all was created. Without him, nothing was created that has been created. And somebody, some podcast I was listening to, I think, talked about this, how it was the word of God, the spoken word, that brought everything into existence and holds it now in existence. Everything that has been made, I am being held in existence by whatever this is, this logos. Which is to go back to my, you know, example of how it is that I communicate with you. It's like it starts with, I have an intent, and then I speak and something comes into you. Some. Something gets inserted into you. And it's like John is saying, that's how you came to be. Jesus had an intent and he spoke. And according to that intent, all of reality unfolded, Which is just a, I think, a beautiful image. But it also says that logic isn't just what makes sense. Logic is what we use to make sense of all things. And there is a logic by which all things do make sense, and that is that intended order of things by which Christ spoke and brought reality into being. And what we are to do. So we've talked about this a couple of times. One definition for truth is that which helps you conform to reality. Which I think is a good definition. I want to know the truth so that I can better conform myself to reality. A lie. What are you conformed to if you act according to a lie? So it's not reality. Right. And so if I want to conform myself to reality, I have to make an appeal to logic, which means I have to say, well, what is. Maybe I can't know all of reality, but what is the order by which reality comes into being and conform myself to that. How do I do that? And going back to my example of my ex wife and our sort of realities separating these two Venn diagrams moving apart until they're completely separate. By the time we were completely separate, we were conformed to two different realities. And that's what you do when you separate, that we're no longer going to live according to each other. According to I'm no longer going to live according to your hopes and your dreams, and my hopes and my dreams and the way that those intertwine and come together. It's like we are untangling and you are living according to something else. That I can and cannot and do not know anything about. So how can I communicate with you? I feel like I'm going on kind of long here, so jump in any time.

[15:40] Michael: Yeah, I'm kind of. There's a lot. There's a lot to jump. But I'm kind of liking how you're kind of. It's a very, like a thin map where you're just sort of like you're putting some mountains over here and plats over here. So I think you're doing a really good job of just kind of setting the table as far as all the different pieces on it. Because one thing was like, as you were saying that as Yalls Venn diagram started to separate, we have something in our society called a judicial system. And so y'. All. That overlay y' all's Venn diagram and said, okay, hey, you guys can no longer communicate, so we're going to mediate. We're going to mediate this and you're going to submit to this.

[16:19] Matt: Right.

[16:20] Michael: And so now you're acknowledging something greater than yourselves because you're saying, okay, I am not the arbitrary of truth here and she's not the arbitrary truth. We are going to submit to this entity as a higher power. A higher power. If. Yeah.

[16:36] Matt: That we both recognize and respect.

[16:38] Michael: Totally. Yeah. To some degree or another, you know, so.

[16:42] Matt: Well, it's like you kind of have to. If you don't want to go to jail, you know.

[16:45] Michael: Exactly.

[16:45] Matt: But I think that, like, really well illustrates the point that in some sense, in order to communicate with anybody, you have to have basically an agreed higher order ideal or power of authority that you both sit under, by which you mediate your. Your intense swapping from your heads.

[17:13] Michael: Which is kind of ironic in that, like, a lot of people are like, oh, I don't believe in marriage. Well, most of the time people just end up formulating a different kind of marriage. You know, it might not be like a Judeo Christian type marriage, but it's like, it's like, oh, it's my partner. Okay, well, you still are. You still have formulated a certain logic to what it means to be a partner. You know, at some point you can violate that agreement, you know, which is. Which is very similar, but just a lot. It's a lesser agreement than marriage is, you know.

[17:43] Matt: Yeah.

[17:44] Michael: So. So, because it's really fascinating too, because you were describing this. It's like, oh, whoa, what happens here? So as your Venn diagrams start to move away from each other, but you're. You still live in a real A shared reality. Mostly because you have kids or property.

[18:01] Matt: Yeah.

[18:02] Michael: So if those things move farther apart, it's like, how do you. And you don't share any of the same reality. It's like, how do. How does this get resolved?

[18:12] Matt: Yeah.

[18:13] Michael: Violence. If you didn't have like a judicial system or something higher that both of you can agree to sort of appeal to. It's like it either relays violence or somebody abdicates their. Responsib their possessions. You know, whether it be material or kids. Like, it has some. It's like either that has to happen or it results to violence. You know, like, okay, I'm going to take this from you. You know, which I think why we have a, you know, in the west anyways is, you know, the. I keep saying judicial, but I think, I mean, I mean more like police and that kind of stuff, which I don't know right word for that. But we have a judicial system that says, hey, actually, like, it protects women in this situation because men are stronger and could just take or physically submit their wives to themselves. And the west were saying, no, that's not. You have. Women have protection under the law to resist men's violence because there's something greater that will enact violence on that situation. I'm kind of going a little bit far off, but. But I just was kind of, you know, it's kind of taking it to its like, logical conclusion. Like, oh, well, what happens if those Venigra diagrams no longer overlap? You can't agree on anything.

[19:37] Matt: Yeah.

[19:38] Michael: But you still have things that you share. It's like, what's the logical consequences of that? It's like violence, you know,

[19:49] Matt: which is pretty sobering. You know, if there is no mediator, then it's down to violence and power is everything. And, you know, obviously the postmodern modernists kind of believe that already. And anyway, but that's kind of blowing my mind because where I wanted to go with this is

[20:14] Michael: so you have

[20:15] Matt: the problem of communication. I think if you don't have a shared higher order ideal or some authoritative power to which you both submit, then you can't really communicate. And if you can't communicate, then it goes to violence. And I wonder. I feel like on this podcast I say a lot, like, we all have this experience, which I think is true, but I wonder about this particular one because I think it took me, you know, a good 34 years of my life till I really. I really, really ran into this. Just the inability to communicate with another human being in a way that was Productive at all.

[20:56] Michael: Yeah. And it's significant that you. That you had to, like, if you could. Didn't have to. If you weren't able to communicate with somebody, you could just walk away, you know?

[21:06] Matt: Right.

[21:06] Michael: Yeah.

[21:07] Matt: And you kind of couldn't walk away. I suspect that everyone will have this experience in their life, even if they haven't yet. The. Just the madness of not being able to communicate. And I guess what I want to submit is. If you. Kind of losing my entry point on this. I think it's like. It's like you think you. Because you know the definition of a word. Because we both know the definition of a word, that we're agreeing that we understand the same thing. And I think there's something much bigger than that, and that is the power structure. That's not a power structure. It's a hierarchy that we just laid out. If you and I are not existing in some kind of shared hierarchy, then communication breaks down, which means that there is a hierarchy by which you can maximally conform yourself to reality. And I think that's what John is saying in the beginning of the book of John, and he's saying is the logos, the logic, the order by which reality comes into being is Jesus. And what is the claim of the New Testament claim of the Bible? If you conform yourself to him, you will have everlasting life. Well, that seems like that solves all the problems. Right?

[22:52] Michael: It's kind of like you can come at it from two different directions. It's like top down or bottom up. Like in this sense, like John's kind of coming from it. The perspective of the top down in the beginning was the word. Okay, that's the top. It says logos, you know, and behind that is God, you know, and something's being expressed into the world and then it permeates throughout everything.

[23:18] Matt: Yeah.

[23:18] Michael: And so. But then you kind of look at it from.

[23:21] Matt: From our.

[23:23] Michael: Going from the. From the bottom up. It's like, oh, wow, okay. You and I have to communicate and we want to have. It's better for us to have a good relationship than a bad relationship, because bad relationships don't really lead anywhere and can lead towards violence and stuff like that. So he's like, okay, so, okay, what makes up a good relationship? Well, truth telling, honesty, integrity, love. It's like, you start. What do those words mean? But the thing is, but you see, the opposite of those is like, if, you know, hate, lie, deceit, you know, it's like, so it's like even though, like these words are even there, that's impregnated with so much.

[24:10] Matt: It's like, that's a logic that you're appealing to a logos that you're appealing to. And not everybody appeals to that. So you might think everybody would obviously agree that a good relationship is based on truth, love. What were the things you listed?

[24:25] Michael: Yeah. Integrity, honesty.

[24:26] Matt: Integrity, honesty. Well, look around you. How many people do you interact with in the world that are behaving as if that's what they think a good relationship is made up of? There's lots of people who lie. There's lots of people who lack integrity. It isn't like they're claiming that those are good ideals and they're falling down on the job. It's that that's. They're not living according to those.

[24:55] Michael: But it's ironic because they actually do, whether it's short term or not, necessarily in the way that we're talking about it is this is something that is embedded in reality where it's like. Because even thieves operate with a certain amount of honesty and integrity among themselves until they're no longer useful in an extreme sense.

[25:20] Matt: Well, but that means that they don't hold those as ideals. They hold those as instrumental means to ends.

[25:28] Michael: But I think that's the whole point is I can't actually be effective in the world if I don't actually hold a semblance of that thing. So then what we're doing is actually taking that little semblance that we see how it's effective even among thieves and saying like, oh, well, what if it was just, what if it was bigger than that? And you start expanding that to other, you know, more and more people and, and you know, you can see the benefit of that start to start to grow where, like, the other part is just like, if you, if you go the other direction and towards deceit and dishonesty, it's like, you see, like there's all these individuals that can't cooperate and, and do anything. So it's like, for me, it's just more of like, which direction that you're pointing because, like, you know, I think that's where even, you know, you know, you see it every single movie. It's like, usually like, there's two thieves and one ends up trusting just a little bit more than the other one. Yeah. And then they get burned because, like, the other one's like, ah, I got them. And they lean into that trust more and then they burn them and take the money and run and they're like, oh, the other person's like, Oh, I thought I could trust you. It's like, because anytime there's two people that are that conniving, it's like usually they're not together long enough. It's like one usually ends up having to be more naive than the other in that relationship.

[27:03] Matt: Well, isn't that always true? Show me two people. I can guarantee you one is more naive than the other. Yeah, but I guess. But I guess so. John Lennox has this talk that he does where he talks about. He's answering the question. Somebody asked a question like, how can an atheist be moral? Because I think he was making the point that basically you cannot have morality without God, which I think we've talked about some. That point is laid out quite well in Carl Truman's book, the Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, which I was talking a lot about over the summer. So addressing the claim that you can't have morality without God and somebody asked the question, basically says, well, I mean, I know atheists that are moral, they behave morally. And John Lennox's response is something like, well, yeah, all humans have a moral compass, and that's because they're made in the image of God. They have that inside of them and obviously integrity and the truth is useful. So he's not saying this part. I'm bringing it back to our conversation. It's obviously useful and we obviously all have it inside of us, even if some of us choose to use those things for deceitful purposes and as long as.

[28:40] Michael: Or to enjoy the benefits of them too.

[28:42] Matt: Right. And I would say that is conforming yourself to a lesser logos. It's to say, yeah, I will show integrity so long as it helps me rob this bank. Or I will show. I will tell the truth to my inner ring of thieves so long as it benefits us. But that game doesn't last very long. Somebody's going to break it and everybody's going to die. Because that's the way the story goes. We know the story goes that way. Watch a Western. Watch Batman and the Joker, the Italian Job. Yeah, totally. Because you are not conforming yourself to a logos that is high enough that it says no. Truth and integrity are above you. They're not something for you to use for your own ends. They are the ways by which you conform yourself to the order of reality to submit to.

[29:46] Michael: Yeah.

[29:46] Matt: Which is to say, yeah, and if you submit to them, they end up permeating your whole life. And I don't just have truth when it is going to benefit me, even if I'm not a thief. It's like, well, I'll tell the truth because we have bonus season coming up, or I'll have integrity because we're getting to the end of this. I want this deal to go through so I get my sales bonus, whatever, but then fuck it after that. If you raise it higher than that and say, no, I believe that I'm best conformed to reality by putting those things above me and saying in all things, I will conform to them.

[30:35] Michael: Yeah. And probably on the equal and opposite side of that too is sort of like lying in deceit is something that I want to acknowledge and move. Move away from.

[30:49] Matt: Right.

[30:50] Michael: You know, it's like in. It's like you're either moving to. You're moving to and from something. It's like, yeah, you know, it's a. It's either kind of one way or the other.

[30:59] Matt: It's like, well, let's try to unpack that because, I mean, lying is obviously useful, so why should you not do it?

[31:08] Michael: Yeah, yeah, we can. I. I don't know if we want to get into gray areas or do more of like the, the black and white space. It's like, sort of like, you know, like, lying can be useful in a way that you're. You can achieve a purpose that you set out to do, and by doing so, it was by deceiving somebody or something, you know, but then there's also this gray area where you know that you really don't know what telling the truth or lying is. It's very difficult because, I mean, you can always like, hey, does this stress make me look fat? You're like, no. Or just even to having. Being tactful in how you explain something or, or, or. Well, I mean, I think that's still being truthful. It's just that you're, You're, You're. You're able to use a scalpel rather than that sledgehammer, you know?

[32:19] Matt: Yeah.

[32:19] Michael: So it's. But I'm just. I think sometimes like, you can kind of like, you can dance in the, in the area of like, are you telling the truth or are you living lying?

[32:32] Matt: Well, I think we sometimes imagine that telling the truth is a matter of just sort of recognizing facts. And I don't think it is, which is why I really like the definition of the truth is what you conform to reality. It gets bigger than just the facts. It's like your example, does this dress make me look fat? It's like, what's the truth? Well, part of the truth is that if you just say, hell yeah, it does something like that. It's like, well, you're also going to hurt this person's feelings. So if I'm to ultimately conform myself to reality, I figure out a way, like you said, to have tact. A lie is useful. But I think the reason to not deploy it or to move away from that and toward truth is because when you lie, you're not only not conforming yourself to reality, you are also inventing an alternate reality, which isn't reality, but it's an alternate reality that you now have the responsibility to keep up with, to maintain, essentially. And that's a bit like saying, well, I'm going to spawn a new reality. I will become the word by which this reality is made. And just like I said earlier that Jesus, the word, the logos, is holding everything that has been made in being. I'm being held in being by Jesus. Well, now once you've lied, you have to hold your reality in being. You have to become a God. And I guess I would submit not only is that very difficult, I think it's ultimately not possible. We have talked years ago on the podcast about how reality will always snap back at you.

[34:33] Michael: Oh yeah, you can slap you in the face.

[34:35] Matt: It'll slap you in the face. You can kind of keep up the charade for a while. And it may be just an outright deceitful lie, or it may be like, oh, no, I think we're going to make it. The business is going to make it through the end of the year. You know, eventually reality is going to win. And Jordan Peterson says that he's, you know, and he's a psychologist, so he's talked to a lot of people. He says that he's never seen anyone get away with anything, not even once. You tell a lie and it will bite back. And I think it's because you are not a God. And so as non gods, we have the choice of repeating a failed experiment. And it's kind of like we were talking a couple weeks ago about Peter Kreeft, talking about how filling that experiment, desire for God with anything but God has a 100% failure rate. In that sense, it's the worst bet of all time. I think lies are kind of like that as well. You can maybe get away with it for a while, but reality is going to win. And so it's worth moving away from because the truth isn't something you can get away with for a while. It is the while. It is the whole thing. It's like it's all of reality. The truth is Unchanging. The truth does not go away. A lie will always go away, but the truth will never go away. So you are never going to lose a bet by conforming yourself to reality, but you will always lose that bet by conforming yourself to your own invented anti. Reality.

[36:32] Michael: Yeah. It starts to extend some of the. The language like Paul and, and Jesus used too is like, you have to die to yourself. It's like basically like I'm going to submit to something greater than myself that I don't even understand.

[36:46] Matt: Yeah, right.

[36:47] Michael: You know. You know, I think there's something in that that is somewhat. It demonstrated to you in a way that you can submit to it. It's like you're submitting to something or someone.

[37:04] Matt: Yeah.

[37:04] Michael: Because it's something that's being demonstrated. But there's also a certain amount that you're also saying, like, I don't know what is true, you know, and kind of like the whole I know who I am and also don't know who I am. It's like you're kind of like living in that paradox and saying, I recognize that there is a truth and I'm going to submit to it and I don't know what it is. At the same time, you know, it's like it's so, so beyond my understanding. But there's something in the conforming that, that leads to. Like, I think I just think of like, you know, like the, the taste of honey or something like that. Once you've kind of tasted truth or integrity or honesty, it's like it, you know what that tastes like. And then, you know, whenever you lie, it was like, it's like it tastes different. It's like a sour or something like that, you know?

[38:04] Matt: Yeah. I feel like it's always relieving when you encounter the truth, even when you don't want it. Even when. Yeah. When you don't want it to be the way that it is. Ambiguity. And living in a world that you don't know and understand because it isn't knowable or understandable. Is far worse than living in a world that you don't understand. But it is knowable and you've just learned a bit of it. And that part, the part you just learned is the worst news. You know, it's like if you are dating someone and you don't know whether or not they want to keep dating. You know, I think we've all been in a relationship like that where it's like, do you like me? Do you really want to be doing this? I don't know, you know, and they finally come to you and they sit you down and they say, I gotta be honest, I don't want to do this. It sucks. But I think there's something relieving in that. It's like, okay, at least I know what's real. Yeah, I know I can conform myself to what is real. I can't conform myself to some in between thing because I don't know what it is.

[39:32] Michael: Isn't that fascinating? Like, as you're saying this? So there's a. Because you look, think about like a developing relationship, you know, you meet a girl for the first time and you're like, I like her. Okay, well, in some sense I'm going to pretend that there's something there. You know, I'm seeing something there, but I'm also going to move towards it and act as if it's true.

[40:00] Matt: Right.

[40:01] Michael: And as you move toward it, it's like, then you start getting feedback. It's like, oh, okay. I think she kind of likes me too.

[40:08] Matt: Yeah.

[40:09] Michael: Is this a friend or, you know, or more is this like, are we going to go into the next stage of dating or engagement or marriage? It's like there's a sort of like progression that happens and you're testing out what is true and does this person feel the same way that I feel about them? You know, so it's, it's kind of funny because you're almost like, you're kind of like dancing on the edge of a knife of what is true and not true.

[40:36] Matt: Yeah.

[40:37] Michael: Because at some point, like something can become, start to become untrue and you don't know it for multiple months down the road. You know, it's like, oh, like, well, there's divorce or end of a relationship or whatever. It's like, at what point did that relationship stop being true? Like it no longer adhered to the idea of what that, of what, that, what we were both pointing towards, you know? Or if you and I are like, I'm like, oh, Matt's my best friend. And Matt's like, yeah, Michael's my friend. I'm like, oh, wait a minute, we might. Yeah, it's like, it's like all of a sudden like my, my, my understanding of reality has shifted because it's like, oh, wait, I thought we shared that, that together, you know? So I think that's kind of like fascinating because then you have like a break.

[41:31] Matt: Michael. I've been podcasting with someone else.

[41:35] Michael: You bastard. I'm taking my. It's my mic. That's great. I thought we could just kind of like, podcast around a little, you know? Yeah. Polypodcast, Polyamorous podcasting.

[41:52] Matt: That's funny.

[41:54] Michael: So I think it's interesting too, is like how, like, you know, how we kind of move into what is real is like some of it is. Is like we're kind of testing and approving what is real.

[42:10] Matt: Well, what does Paul say about testing and approving the good and pleasing will of God? I think if you look at it on this really small scale, it's like this person you've been dating finally sort of confirms, like, yeah, I don't want to be doing this. It's not the news you wanted. But you feel some amount of relief in knowing the truth. Well, what is it to know the ultimate truth, to get a taste of the ultimate logos, the ultimate order, the ultimate logic, to get a taste of that? I mean, it seems like most of the New Testament, the apostles, are basically saying, once you taste that, that's the ultimate relief. And Paul says that I consider everything a loss after tasting that. Consider everything rubbish in comparison with that, though my body burn matters not. And the man sitting in a jail cell saying this. I think about the circumstances of my life and, like, my life's pretty damn good compared to Paul's life, you know, And I don't have really any worry about getting beheaded, at least not yet. I don't know if that changes in the near future. But, You know, what is it that causes Luke. Is it Luke or James to say, consider it pure joy when you encounter sufferings of any kind?

[43:51] Michael: Yeah, James.

[43:51] Matt: Yeah, James. I just feel like I saw for the first time what he was talking about. He's like that relief when you find truth, when you find the reality of the situation, You know, why is it that, You know, in general, if you see a video of a man asking a woman to marry him, you're going to be seeing that video because she said yes. Generally, people don't post the no's unless they're like, really brutal or really funny. Right. But she's overjoyed. What is that? It's like, oh, what I wanted to be true is really true. Oh, my gosh.

[44:42] Michael: Oh, it's interesting.

[44:46] Matt: And what would that be like at the highest level possible? Not just what I want to be true about you or this relationship, and not only maybe it's not what I want to be true. My claim is that there's relief on both sides and in a sense, joy on both sides. And what would that be like at the highest level. And I think John is saying the highest level of order, of logic, of intent is Jesus, who was there in the beginning by which all things have been made and you conform yourself to him. And downstream of that you get men saying, I consider it pure joy when I encounter sufferings of many kind because I have tasted something that causes all that to be loss. Rubbish. None of it matters to me. I don't have that sort of experientially in my body. But I think during this conversation I sort of see the, I see the logic of it for the first time.

[45:56] Michael: Well, even just like what Jesus tells his disciples, like, love one another. It's like by your love for each other, like they will know me. And there's something about that is like if you can walk in this truth, in this Logos, and it's demonstrated to love. And part of that demonstration is that you love each other. And he's also saying that if you don't love each other, then you're actually not walking in my way. And so there's a demonstratable demonstration of that truth. And part of it is that love among the disciples. So I think that's interesting too. It's not just an idea, it's also demonstratable and also demonstrative. Demonstrative. I like to make it my own word words.

[46:51] Matt: Demonstrative, audible.

[46:53] Michael: I really do. You see me write stuff, I'm like, I write the first three or four letters and then just scribble the last. Oh yeah. Anyways. But I think that's the beautiful thing. Whenever people tell me that that truth is relative or arbitrary,

[47:10] Matt: I don't know

[47:10] Michael: how you get there. Because whenever you submit or walk in truth, like, like it's tangible. Like even if you don't like, like this, the, the moral atheist, it's like they're actually acknowledging that there is something.

[47:28] Matt: There's an order.

[47:29] Michael: There's an order, two things. And that moral actually has a meaning outside of their definition of what it means to be moral.

[47:38] Matt: Right.

[47:39] Michael: And if you ask any atheists, it'd be like, oh, this is not just true for me, it's true for everyone, you know, to act this way, in this moral way. It's not just that I'm, I'm to submit to this moral morality, but there you're going to see them also try to convince others that this, this is something outside of me, this idea, or maybe it was just an idea for them. This idea is superior to you and I and we must submit to this idea of I will respect your Property. And you will respect my property.

[48:13] Matt: Right.

[48:14] Michael: And so it's interesting, you come back to the hierarchy or like coming up with a judicial system that then we can appeal to, to arbitrate our differences, you know? So I find it. I just. I just find that it's really difficult to. The logic seems to permeate everything. And the ultimate part of that leads to Jesus is kind of like going again from the simple to the complex. You ever go, oh, what's the answer to that? It's Jesus. It's like, actually, yes, even though it sounds like such a kindergartner answer. But what that means is so unbelievably complex. What is the logos? How does the logos permeate everything? What does it look like? How do I live in that? So I don't know. I just think it's. I just find that it's really. The things that we're talking about are tangible and real, apparently.

[49:16] Matt: I saw this quote from Ronald Reagan. He said, within the covers of the Bible are the answers for all the problems men face. And I don't know much about Ronald Reagan. I don't have a dog in that fight. This is not a political point, but that seems true to me. There really aren't any problems that people can face that there is not an answer for it. And in the Bible, and I don't mean a direct set of advice or instructions, but I think it's description or something like that. Yeah, it's more. It's more like what we're talking about. Like, what is the story of the Bible? Well, it starts with the Word, and then it goes through a bunch of stories, and then the Word becomes flesh, and the flesh dies and rises again. And the promise is, you will have infinite joy by following my way, by conforming yourself to my reality, by being born again. And within that, it's like. It's not exactly that the Bible contains solutions to all problems. It's that the solution to all problems is to conform yourself to ultimate reality. All problems will be solved if you do that. And I think the Bible lays that out and then tells us how to do it. And that's hard because so much of it seems so inverted to us and so counterintuitive to us. And it's full of. The man who will save his life will lose it. Wait, what are we even talking about here? Saving or losing? You're inverting the two.

[51:15] Michael: Which is funny because it's like you. You. You do this no matter what you believe in. Like, you've conformed to a reality no matter what you believe. It's like a, a Camus absurdity, like where I just accepted the world as absurd. And in that, that you kind of find meaning after you've accepted, everything is meaningless.

[51:35] Matt: Right, right.

[51:36] Michael: And so it's like, it's like, well, you're actually submitting to a reality that, that you're acknowledging and living in. And so you just can't get. You just can't get out of. You're going to submit to something. You know, it's like, so I think we should take care with what we are, what we believe and what we are submitting to.

[51:57] Matt: Well, that seems like a crux right there.

[51:59] Michael: Let's talk about.

[52:07] Matt: We all submit to some reality. I think there are those whose spirit says, I will submit to no man, to no God, to no other person's reality. I mean, this is where we get things like my truth, my lived experience. I'm the arbiter of my reality. I'm the arbiter of truth. Well, it's a bit like saying, I'm going to lie to you because I stand to profit from it. But now you've spawned an anti reality that you're responsible for holding in being. And how many of those have you done, by the way? And if you're responsible for holding it in being, you're kind of a slave to it. You are now submitting yourself to that anti reality and holding it up, propping it up. We are all submitted to some reality. And if that's the case, then, you know, a wise person might ask the question, what is the reality worth submitting to?

[53:30] Michael: Can I do something real quick? Yeah, I just was laughing because the materialist is also submitting to something, but it's against their will. They're submitting to their biology and their chemistry even though they don't have a will to submit, Actually submit. But technically speaking, you are submitting to your biology even though you have no will in this. It's like you're a product of your biology and chemistry. It's like, yeah.

[54:00] Matt: But then you see also a lot of materialists say, well, my biology is against my will and therefore I shall change it. That's what trans is.

[54:12] Michael: Yeah, yeah, I was kind of going a different area with that. But it's just like the whole, the whole idea of because we want to then smuggle something in there which is like, oh, but I'm going to rise above my biology, above my chemistry. It's like you are no longer a materialist at that point. You're now acknowledging something greater than the physical universe that you are smuggling in or inheriting into your worldview. So then you have to take account for that.

[54:47] Matt: Yeah, well, and it's not possible. And Lewis's famous essay on that, he says, basically, for the. The materialist or the transhumanist, the final act of perfecting man is the abolition of man.

[55:06] Michael: Explain it to me. I don't know if I get that. Like, the demolishing of man, is that the abolition of man?

[55:13] Matt: Abolition of man. Yeah. Well, think abolition of slavery.

[55:17] Michael: Okay.

[55:17] Matt: It's outlawed that there is no more man.

[55:21] Michael: Oh, gotcha, gotcha.

[55:24] Matt: You destroy the thing by trying to perfect it, essentially.

[55:27] Michael: And at that point, you have no moral claim, you have no truth claim, no honesty claim, no deceit claim. It's all a product of biology in chemistry. If you don't have. If, if, if there's nothing outside of that.

[55:43] Matt: Right. That is an interesting problem. Right? If, if it's all a product of biology and chemistry, then what good is objecting to deceit? What good is objecting to frank? But anything that we all object to, Like, there's nothing can be done about it.

[56:13] Michael: Yeah, it's like, it's almost like a. It's like it's not even worth discussing because it's. There's just nothing there.

[56:18] Matt: It's a. It's a no op.

[56:19] Michael: Yeah, it's like. Yeah, yeah. So I think that really, the, you know, once you kind of acknowledge that there is a reality that we have to submit to, then that's where the conversation starts. And that is beyond a materialist worldview. And so that's where it gets interesting. Okay, well, what is this thing that we're submitting to? Because that's right there, right now, you're acknowledging that you have a free will no matter how little or much that there is of it. You can argue that too, but you're at least saying there is at least a will that you have, and that if you have a will, then you have to submit your will to something.

[57:05] Matt: Say more about that.

[57:06] Michael: Well, it's like once you have a will, it's like you're, you're, you. You're.

[57:09] Matt: Well, and also how you get to free will from submission?

[57:14] Michael: Well, basically, if, if, if everything's not material and you're acting out of your biology and chemistry, then you're saying there's something outside of yourself. And the ultimate sort of denial of that would be to know that and to deny it, which would be not submitting to that. But Once you get past the biology material, then it's like you have a choice, and that is to submit to that or to destroy it. It's like, I see that there's something outside of myself and I don't like it. I'm going to destroy it. So it's like, I think you, you either submit to what is real or you are a, an agent of destruction of what is real, you know? Yeah. Because I think that's what I think is really hard, especially with all the different philosophies and religions and stuff like that is like, in every single one, that's not a, a pure materialist, there is an acknowledgment of something outside of ourselves. And in Camus world, it's like, well, you must submit to the world being absurd. So if there's something outside of yourself that you're submitting to, which is the absurdity of all of this, like, there is no rhyme or reason to this. However, it's like just by making that statement, you're saying that there is something that is tangible and you're naming it absurd. So it's fascinating that at any time

[58:52] Matt: there is a God, and that God is chaos.

[58:54] Michael: Yeah. And, and I think that's where once the will comes into being, it's like submission is the only act of free will I think that we have, other than destruction, maybe.

[59:11] Matt: Okay, I think I see what you're saying. Yeah. Like, once you've acknowledged that there's something outside of you, then you have a choice whether or not to submit to it. And that is your act of free will. And if you submit to it. Okay, that's one option. The other option is destroy it. Destroy that thing outside of yourself. Because if you're not in submission to it, then you try to make it in submission to you, and you will necessarily have to destroy it to do that. I suppose the third option might be something like ignorance. Yeah, I understand that there's something outside of me that I feel like I should submit to, but I don't really want to. So I'm just going to kind of pretend like it's not really there. Ignore the elephant in the room, sweep the monkey under the rug or whatever. Is that a saying?

[60:09] Michael: There's something about sleeping something other about me as a monkey.

[60:11] Matt: It's not a monkey. I don't think the monkey would submit to that.

[60:15] Michael: Well, I was just thinking about, like, for you and I, it's like, you know, I, I, I see that you're another person, and it's like, so I. I submit to, like, you have value because you're something similar to me. And. Or I can be. I can. Oh, shoot. It's not really kind of how I want to go with that one. I think the point I was trying to kind of get to is this sort of idea of, like, you and I can be friends, and if. If we decide to be friends, then we kind of have to submit to something outside of ourselves that define what friendship is.

[60:51] Matt: Yeah.

[60:52] Michael: However, I can be like, I'm just gonna go away from you. Like, I'm not gonna deal with you and just, like, go live somewhere else. It's like, that can be effective, but you're actually kind of like, even in just that right there, you're kind of running away from a problem that you're not willing to solve. Even if it ends up being like, hey, we're going to be acquaintances, or I'm going to acknowledge your existence and deal with it and not become friends, but at least deal with your existence, you know, and then the other. But the other is the. Is to destroy it or to also just move away from it. But I think moving away from it is just. It's just kind of like a denial or unwillingness to acknowledge something that is real. But you can't do that. As more and more people are around you. You actually can't.

[61:43] Matt: Well, there's more and more things you have to move away from.

[61:45] Michael: Yeah.

[61:46] Matt: And how do you get away from all of those things? That's Lewis's Grey Town. And Lewis also says that in order to be friends with somebody, there's actually a third object required, that friends are those who stand side by side facing the same direction. And it is always by finding some secret interest that you both share. And I feel like you and I's friendship really kicked off when we were doing Fido Fridays. So we had all these guys that would come every Friday to have lunch, but it was always you and I there after everybody else had left, because we had found something that we saw that we were both interested in, and we just wanted to keep looking at it together and talking about it together. It's like that was the third object that defines our friendship. Whereas maybe a more accessible example is you meet somebody who's also super into vintage baseball cards. It's like, you're going to be friends because you can talk about this shared interest that you have that not a lot of other people have. And whether or not other people have that interest is really irrelevant. It's like you're friends with somebody because you. You have this eureka moment. Oh, you love that, too. And that becomes the basis for your friendship.

[63:00] Michael: Totally.

[63:01] Matt: And it doesn't remain the basis, but it is the thing that is definitive of the relationship. Whereas to contrast that with. So this is Lewis in his book the Four Loves. So he talks about the four kinds of love. Friendship being one, eros being in romantic love. He says, it's different with friends. It's two people sitting side by side facing the same direction. As in. On a park bench. You're both facing towards something. Eros, you're sitting face to face, facing each other. You are the object of my affection. I am the object of your affection. Whereas in friendship, there is a third object that is the object of both of our affection.

[63:51] Michael: So we should be sitting side by side during the podcast, right?

[63:53] Matt: Don't look me in the eye.

[63:54] Michael: Don't look me in the eye. This is weird. It's weird.

[64:01] Matt: Sorry.

[64:01] Michael: That was a. As a meme. That was inside. Inside Baseball right there.

[64:12] Matt: I think plenty of people have probably, Okay, so back to submission and free will. I think there's a. What I want to go towards is this issue of Scope. Okay, so back to the question. I think I said this earlier. It's like, once you have recognized that there is something you must submit to, a curious man might say, okay, what is the ultimate thing I should submit to? Because maybe you come to terms with this in a relationship. Okay, I've had a bunch of failed relationships. I really want this one to work. I need to submit to the fact that I don't understand women. And so when she says something to me that's bewildering, I'm going to say, okay, that's not a deal breaker. I just need to sit with it. And hopefully, in her grace and mercy, she will help explain it to me in a way that I can understand. And then maybe that kind of fails. And you say, maybe someone else's grace and mercy can help me understand. Let me consult a therapist, maybe even a couples therapist. Okay, we're going to both submit to this. That seems to kind of work a little bit. You go, well, that's a little bit. There's something higher that we're putting above both of us. Is there something else higher that we can put above both of us that we can submit to together that helps clarify and mediate and arbitrate our lack of ability to understand each other and allows this thing to actually work? And so you start getting this question of, like, all right, I'm laying out a potential Hierarchy. What could be at the top of that hierarchy that would be most effective at explaining reality?

[66:30] Michael: Okay, dude, let me see if I can do this because you just made me see something that was really cool. So at the beginning of our conversation, we talked about, like, top down or bottom up.

[66:40] Matt: Yeah.

[66:40] Michael: And so, like, the bottom up is kind of what we've been doing right now is like in all this complexity, you're seeing some sort of reality. And so you're trying to conform to this reality, but this reality is, like, really complex. However, there's all these, like, telltale signs that are pointing to something more and greater. Kind of like you're talking about the couples therapist. They're helping you. Kind of like they can see a little bit higher. They're not caught up in the emotions that you might have or, you know, if you and I are having a problem, I'm going to come from my. You're going to ask me, who's outside of you, to come to you and explain to you what my problem is. You know, and so there's a. There's this sort of appeal that you need something to come to you to tell you about what it is. So when you think about, like, like, so even if you could build this complex thing all the way up to God, it's still insufficient because the thing itself has to come to you.

[67:36] Matt: Yeah.

[67:36] Michael: To say who it is. And so I think that's why in Christianity, all the other religions, it's more of like, you kind of have to continue to build this complex system up to God, but you're never reaching God. You know, whether it's.

[67:52] Matt: It's a Tower of Babel.

[67:53] Michael: Yeah.

[67:53] Matt: Or Judaism, or it's an asymptote. It's like you can take any number and divide it by two forever, and you will never get to zero.

[68:01] Michael: Like, Judaism is the promise that of one day that God will come to man and that he demonstrates that through coming through man, through prophets, but in a very insufficient way. Where, like in Islam, it's like, it's. It's actually just like always building up to God. It's like you never. God's not coming to man in this sense. But in Christianity, it's like you have Jesus, who is. Reality, is the Logos, who enters in and tells us about himself. So it's a relationship that you enter into because God has communicated himself to us. And so I think that's like the whole. That solves the bottom down part of

[68:42] Matt: this because, like, bottom up or top down?

[68:45] Michael: Top down. The top down part of this because it's actually impossible for us to know God unless God communicates himself to us.

[69:00] Matt: And Jesus says that pretty explicitly, doesn't he? No one comes to the Father except through me.

[69:05] Michael: Yeah. Which is, I mean, which is super fascinating. It's like I'm in the Father, the Father's in me, and you are in me. And it's like there's this whole idea of like God has now entered into the world, into the I don't know, I know and I don't know world. And he demonstrates and communicates in a way that we can actually live in that paradox, in that reality. Because you cannot solve that problem, is never is unsolvable. I think that's why you get these other philosophies and stuff like Camus. It's like, if you don't have a God who comes and explains himself to you, it is absurd. I can't reach that far. It's impossible. But if I submit to that, then something, it unlocks reality in the logos. It's like it opens the door to something bigger, something greater. I mean, in my head, I don't know if I can completely describe it, but kind of what you were talking about made a lot of sense to me. Like, oh, actually I can't build bottom up Tower of Babel type thing. It necessitates something coming from the outside in to show me or to tell me what it is, you know, But there's like footprints of it everywhere, you know, oh, I'm a moral person. Oh, you are? What is moral? And then you start kind of building this Tower of Babel of what it. But the thing is, it's like, but there's something real about that. Like you're nice to your wife, you don't beat your wife. You know, it's like, well, how do you know not to do that? It's like, well, if I don't do that, we actually have this like really cool relationship. If I don't do that to her, you know, it's like I'm kind. When you're kind to a stranger. Oh, well, there's something, there's something, there's something about in this reality that if I'm kind to a stranger, that something kind of magical happens, you know, and then Jesus comes and kind of puts all those pieces together and say, this is why, like, like if you, if you give food to the stranger, it's like you're giving food to me.

[71:38] Matt: Well, I think there's the opposite case too though, where like, yeah, if you behave Morally, that does seem to work out well. But there's also something where if you behave immorally, you have the sense that you have injured yourself and maybe not injured, but violated yourself.

[71:59] Michael: That's interesting.

[72:00] Matt: And I think even in the most extreme cases where you might think about sociopaths or psychopaths, Those people are scary because their soul seems to have gone away. And I think it goes away because they have violated themselves and probably been violated as well, so much that they've dissociated so far that they are something that is subhuman, almost. Gollum, like, Gollum becomes subhuman, which is really interesting because in the story, Gollum was. I can't remember, I think he was a hobbit or a man, one of the two.

[72:49] Michael: Yeah, Some species of hobbit, I think.

[72:51] Matt: Yeah. And a fairly sort of decent, respectable kind of hobbit as well. But he becomes sub that to where he's now just a creature of some unknown kind of. And in a way, it's because he's violated himself to the point that he can't even look at that violation because it's too painful and he's disconnected from himself. But I think we also. That's also a signal to us that there is something true in us which is pointing in some direction. It's like, yeah, if I'm loving toward my wife, that seems to go well. If I'm not, not only does it not go well, I feel some violation inside of me that causes me to want to unself myself. I don't want to be me anymore. Because being me is. It feels terrible.

[74:06] Michael: Or to distance yourself from that relationship. You know, it's like. That's interesting. Yeah. I don't know. This seems so obvious to me. But then also I see, like, how much I don't understand about this, where we're kind of going with this.

[74:41] Matt: Yeah, well, that's kind of an interesting point. It's like the further down this road we get, and by this road, I just mean life itself and our conversations that we've been having for 15 years and this podcast. And it's like, the more I think we're converging on something that looks more and more, like, obvious and yet harder and harder to explain.

[75:10] Michael: Well, I think that's a part of it is, like, it's something to be experienced. And I think that's the same thing with, like, I could tell somebody that has never been married, okay, hey, this is what marriage is like. And so you can kind of get an idea of what marriage is or what it's like to be a business owner or, you know. You know, to play Pokemon. You know, it's like you can. You can describe it, but it's like at some point you have to, like,

[75:39] Matt: have you ever played Pokemon?

[75:40] Michael: I don't know why I said Pokemon. But at some point you have to kind of actually experience it. You have to, like, submit to the idea of what it means to be married or be friends. It's like. It's like there's the experiential part of it. It's like it's just not a knowledge part. And I think that's the part with, like. With. With Jesus specifically, is like. I think there's like, all these roads that lead to him that you can understand intellectually, but it's like. But you have to at some point enter into that relationship, because it's. Until you do that, it's still the Tower of Babel. It's like you're building a theology. You're building a worldview that might actually be pointed at the right thing. But you miss. You miss the whole idea of. It's like, it's. Maybe it's. Maybe it could be the idea of, like, the super fan who becomes a stalker. You know, it's like they know everything about their favorite movie star, you know, and it's as if they have a relationship with the movie star, but the movie star doesn't know who the hell they are. And in fact, you know. You know, then they come to the movies like, hey, oh, that was so cool what you did last week, you know, and I was doing this. And they're like, who are you? It's like, I don't know who you are. It's like. It's like I've never been introduced to you. I've never. It's like you're actually kind of creeping me out right now. It's because they had this idea of the movie star, but not a relationship with the movie star, if that makes sense.

[77:23] Matt: What is that verse? There will be those who say, lord, Lord. And I will say, I never knew you.

[77:30] Michael: Yeah.

[77:34] Matt: That feels like connected, what you. To what you were just talking about in some very strange way. Like,

[77:42] Michael: it's like, oh, man. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. You know, it's like I. I totally believed in reality and truth and. And, you know, that there's morality and there's.

[77:52] Matt: Well, I'm just like, imagining if I see Tom Cruise walking down the street, I might go, tom.

[77:56] Michael: Tom.

[77:56] Matt: Yeah. He's like, I don't Know you?

[78:02] Michael: Yeah, it's like, you know, we spend all of our time building these. These. These worlds, and. But if we don't acknowledge, like, the logos of that, if we're not in relationship with the logos, it's like you don't really.

[78:17] Matt: The intent, the order, the reality of it. Yeah, it's like. I mean, I guess there is a proper way to approach someone that you know and they don't know you. And the way is not to appeal to familiarity, because you might have it, but they don't,

[78:44] Michael: which is kind of like. I mean, I don't know if this is gonna. If the analogy stretches this far, but we'll try it. Try it.

[78:52] Matt: Here we go.

[78:54] Michael: Well, I think there's this part of why the confession is so important. It's like, hey, God, I acted in this world in a way that basically said that I don't know you and I want to know you. And that's sort of like. I mean, I think that in that sense, it's sort of like the confession of sin, maybe, in that it's like, hey, I have fallen short, and now I acknowledge that I haven't known you. I've pretended that I've known how reality works. I've pretended that I was moral. I pretended that, you know, or that I saw that I was so immoral that I just gave myself to that. And now that I see that there is. There is this reality, it's like. Like I want. I want that. Like, I want to know you. Because I. I kind of see it as. One is like the Pharisees who pretend that they know God and build their world around this idea of how moral they are. And then on their side, too, is somebody who is running from reality, whether it be in drugs or prostitution or, you know, just basically sacrificing themselves. But the confession of the reality and that where you stand and where it is, is something that. I think I have to kind of go away from the prior analogy of the movie star, but.

[80:42] Matt: Well, I think there's an analogy that we can all hopefully see in our own lives. Not that we hopefully experience it, but hopefully what I'm saying is relatable. That's what I hope. I've had the experience of someone I know treating me unkindly or betraying me, being deceitful in their dealings with me, and then shortly afterward, in a social situation, saying, oh, this is my good friend Matt. And then they go on to say whatever they say. And I think there's something sinister about that. Are you trying to Wax over what happened by challenging me to rebuke you in public. Are you trying to use me in order to gain social status or reputation? Because this is a different reality than the one that I remember.

[82:09] Michael: Yeah. Shoot.

[82:16] Matt: And that's like a. I guess what I'm saying is, like, I don't recognize you. You're not the one that I recognize.

[82:25] Michael: Yeah.

[82:27] Matt: Because there's two. Two versions of you that you've revealed to. To me. One is the one that betrays me, and one is the one that says, my good friend Matt. Which is it?

[82:39] Michael: Yeah.

[82:40] Matt: And so I think that's what. I think. That's how I. I'm seeing that verse. There are those who say, lord, Lord. And I will say, I never knew you. I don't recognize you. Who are you? It's not that I know nothing about you. It's that you are acting duplicitously, and I don't know who to take you for.

[83:01] Michael: Yeah.

[83:06] Matt: And to your point earlier, it's like, I can't build up to my. I can't build up to the truth of who you are from my own understanding. You actually have to reveal yourself to me. Hmm. I can't answer the question, are you the betrayer or the friend? You have to reveal that to me.

[83:24] Michael: Oh, that's fascinating.

[83:29] Matt: Wow.

[83:30] Michael: You. You get kind of go back to the movie star thing, in a sense. It's sort of like any sort of, like, relationship. Like, it's. It's a. It's a mutual. Unfolding of the other. You know, as far as, like, I'm going to come to you and reveal myself to you, and you're going to reveal yourself to me. And that's kind of like on a. On a more human side of things. Because if not, it's like, yeah, it's like you're. You're. You're. You're. You're your friend. You have a. Your friends with a lie. It's like. It's like, wait, you and I share a completely different reality. Kind of the example that you're describing is like. And then you have the questions, like, do you believe that maybe something. Something's off here? Like, you know, maybe they do believe that maybe whatever they did to you, they didn't think anything of. You know, and it's like, but.

[84:29] Matt: But it's revealed. There's something that has to be reconciled.

[84:31] Michael: Totally. Yeah. In order to have to have a relationship.

[84:35] Matt: Yeah. Like, the accounting has to be done. The books have to be reconciled.

[84:39] Michael: Yeah. And it's not that you have to go through every single transgression.

[84:42] Matt: It's just like, hey, there's something off here.

[84:45] Michael: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I. I saw that with. Not to go details, but with some people, like, through the divorce that had some ideas of you that were just not true. And it's like, oh, wow. I. Sorry, Matt. You know, it's like I thought. I thought this, and that was not true. And it's like. It's like that's the only way that you can have that reconciliation. I think that's the same thing with us. And God is sort of like, you know, when we actually see our place, it's like, there has to be a reconciliation, you know, And I think that's when the whole, like, accepting that payment, it's like, hey, no, I paid for that.

[85:26] Matt: Yeah.

[85:27] Michael: Just accept it. And we can. We can enter into that relationship.

[85:31] Matt: Yeah. The ultimate reconciliation.

[85:35] Michael: Because, again, it's like, maybe this kind of goes on the natural, like, you know, in order for, like, you know, if you did me wrong or if I did you. Let's just say. Let's say you did me wrong. It's like I kind of have to. Like, I have to let that person of. If you want to be in a relationship with me, I have to. That part of me has to die. That part that sees you as the transgressor, so that that mat inside me

[86:07] Matt: has to die, as does the part of me that transgressed you.

[86:12] Michael: Yeah. I think that's kind of what Jesus does, is like, hey, I see that you guys have transgressed. Transgressed against me. Well, you know what? That person, that image that I have of you, that knowing of you that's inside me. Oh, dude, it died. It was. It was. It was killed on the cross.

[86:34] Matt: I took it down.

[86:35] Michael: I took it down. That is so fascinating because, like, as we've been talking about this whole year about, like, how there's a. There's a mat in your dad that nobody else will know, and you can only interact with that mat through your dad. And it's the same thing with God. Like, there is a. There is a you in God that you cannot know outside of God. And there is a. There is a you that has transgressed against God. And basically God says, hey, that you died in my son.

[87:09] Matt: I take that down. I take that down.

[87:10] Michael: Yeah. With myself, I no longer see you through that.

[87:16] Matt: Yeah. That is fascinating.

[87:17] Michael: Dude. There's something really interesting there. Oh, wow. There's some. There's some sort of key here with, like, the whole, like, who am I? Well, there's a whole bunch of me living in all these different people that I only meet through those people.

[87:32] Matt: Yeah.

[87:33] Michael: So if you take that to the ultimate level, it's like, I am in the Father, you know, it's like. It's like there's a me that exists in the Father, and Jesus says, yes, and you know what? That's a transgressor, and I'm going to pay for that so that you can. So the you that's in the Father is clean, Holy, sanctified. That's interesting.

[88:05] Matt: Well, glory be to that. I kind of feel like, let's end it there.

[88:11] Michael: Let's do. Yeah, I find, like. I'm like, oh, gosh, there's a lot to, like, kind of unpack there. Yeah. I feel like we just kind of scratched on something. I'm like, oh, what was that?

[88:20] Matt: Well, cheers to that.

[88:21] Michael: Cheers. Love you guys.

[88:23] Matt: Love you out there.

[88:24] Michael: Thanks for coming along on the journey. This was fun.

[88:25] Matt: Yeah, it's been good.

[88:26] Michael: All right, see you again, Sa.