What If Belief Actually Changes You?

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers.

[0:22] Michael: I thought you're dropping the bass right there.

[0:30] Matt: Oh, you know what I learned recently that the.

[0:32] Michael: To go to the shores. Let's go to the shores.

[0:35] Matt: Then I'll tell you what I learned.

[0:35] Michael: To the shores, to the shores.

[0:42] Matt: Apparently, you know the Mission Impossible scene theme song you were just singing? There's a reason it's bum, bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. And it's because that's Morse code for mi. Long, long, short, short. That's mi.

[0:59] Michael: That's pretty awesome.

[1:00] Matt: It is pretty awesome.

[1:02] Michael: Just fun facts with Matt. Yeah, totally.

[1:05] Matt: I love fun facts.

[1:06] Michael: So we'll have like, instead of like Science Corner, we'll have like, hey, fun facts with Matt. Yeah. Little side episode on Shores of Ignorance. That's awesome. You do have, like, a lot of, like, random sort of. Sort of facts or.

[1:22] Matt: Yeah, I'm a fun, fun fact kind of guy.

[1:24] Michael: Yeah. He was like. He always send me something or tell me about something. I'm like, oh, oh, that's interest.

[1:29] Matt: I never, never would have known to think about that. I do that.

[1:34] Michael: You do that.

[1:35] Matt: That's the thinking for us. Yeah.

[1:38] Michael: I just bring the confusion. Well, it's been a fun last, I don't know, four or five episodes. They're kind of like. They kind of all string together in a kind of a fun way. And I kind of feel like the more that we kind of are exploring these different areas of, you know, kind of like, what is the nature of reality? Like, why are we here? Like, how do you interact with this thing that we're a part of? You know?

[2:06] Matt: Yeah.

[2:06] Michael: Is there. Is there actual meaning and stuff?

[2:08] Matt: So I don't know.

[2:09] Michael: I've been really enjoying it. I mean, it's left me with more questions, but more things that.

[2:14] Matt: Yeah, you said you kind of been chewing on the through lines for the past week or so.

[2:18] Michael: Yeah.

[2:19] Matt: Where does that. Where are you with that?

[2:22] Michael: Well, kind of say I might just kind of just jump in with a lot of the thoughts that have been after having kind of gone back and listened to our episodes. It's sort of like there's a certain themes that just kind of are just kind of ruminating in my. In my soul. And, you know, one is just like. Like, what is the change from not knowing God to knowing God? You know, is it just sort of a arbitrary now I. Now I follow this logic or this semantics or these rules because I follow God. Or it's just like. Or like, does something actually Change in you. And, and so I'm just kind of like trying to try to think through that. As far as like some examples in the Old Testament where like Israel is going, is being liberated from, exit from. From Egypt and they're crossing over the Red Sea and there's this moment where they cross over and the Red Sea comes down. It's sort of like. It's like that's sort of like the separation of their old self as slaves in Egypt to the new self of being a sort of following God, you know. And then you'll also have that with Jacob where Jacob, you know, wrestles with God and. And then God ends up giving him like a. A wounded hip and his name changes to Israel. So it's like sort of like this sort of. His name, Jacob, meaning supplanter, one who grabs what he wants is kind of another way to say it. Into Israel is like one who, who wrestles with God and sort of like this attention to sort of like sort of him grabbing his birthright and him kind of going after these things to now struggling with God. And so there's kind of like change. It was a physical change for him as well as his name changed. And so like, there's. There's also this idea of like, you know, whenever you follow Jesus, it's sort of, you know, you are an old creation and now you're a new creation. Like, there's something that has changed. And so I've been thinking about like, like, what is that change? And you can also just see this in normal, normal life, you know. You know, you're unemployed and then you're employed. Like something happened and you. Something changed. Like you're no longer sitting at your house, you're now gainfully employed. And so it's like there's a shift in what you would. What do they do? They give you a name card. You have to give them all your identity and stuff like that to sign up for this new sort of, this new life, this new work life. And so I feel like we experience these sort of transitions. And it's usually like there's something, some formality in that that makes you something new. But whenever you become something new, it's not like, you know, it's not like you all of a sudden are everything that. That new thing is. So like, even when you start a job, it's like, oh, hey, now I'm a programmer or something like that. And it's like you kind of have to kind of work into being whatever it is that you're that you are. What's wrong?

[5:30] Matt: Sorry, something's weird with the audio.

[5:34] Michael: I got small squiggles, and it's like.

[5:42] Matt: I plugged this into the wrong channels. So you're on top, I'm on the bottom.

[5:45] Michael: Oh, gotcha.

[5:47] Matt: Just monitoring that. And I was like, something's weird.

[5:50] Michael: It's like you're just saying so much

[5:51] Matt: without saying anything, which I think is fine. We'll just fix it afterwards. Yeah.

[5:57] Michael: So I think there's just, like. I'm just seeing a lot of different. Like, what is that? What is that transformation from not being one thing into being another thing? And I think that's where, you know, when Jesus talks about, like, come, follow me. It's like, you know, and there's this idea of, like, I've been crucified with Christ. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And, you know, what does that. What does that mean? Like, what changes? And there's like, in ezekiel, I think 2636 or 3626, talks about how God is going to give mankind, like, a new heart. And so, like, you know, the part

[6:36] Matt: in my head, your heart of stone and give. Give you a heart of flesh.

[6:40] Michael: Yeah. And so part of me is like, how much is this? How much is it metaphorical, and how much is it actually, like, is physically changing you?

[6:50] Matt: Yeah.

[6:51] Michael: And so those are just a lot of the questions I kind of had as we've been discussing these things, because, like, when I think of Jesus and the way that he walked, it's like he walked in the way of, I know who I am, and I don't know who I am, but I don't know who I am was embedded in the Father. And I see this whole thing of, like, it's not just that Jesus knew who he was, but there was a sort of progressive revelation for himself and who he was. And, you know, I just. It's something that he kind of experienced his whole life where for us, we have to kind of like, be born into it. Like, we don't. We don't experience it for our whole life. Like, my understanding of the story of life of Jesus is like, he's. He was always God's son from the very start to the very end of his life here on Earth. And so he never was, like, sort of born again or born into this way of life. He always just was.

[7:51] Matt: And.

[7:52] Michael: And that God was guiding him and teaching him, you know, as he was getting older and even up to his death. You know, Jesus, like, you know, take this cup from me, not my will, but your will be done. So there was still that sort of, I need you to help me know who I am. And he depended on the father for that, the same as we do. And so that's just kind of some of the things I've been kind of struggling through with the things we're talking about.

[8:21] Matt: Well, at the beginning you posed the question. Is following God, or I don't remember how you put it, but following God or believing in God is it just a matter of sort of arbitrary semantics? And I find it interesting because you can kind of play that game with everything and we do this all the time. Like you gave the example of starting a new job. It's like you get your employee badge, you get your lanyard, you get your sign in to this, that and the other thing. And you could say all of that is just kind of semantics. It doesn't really mean anything. And formality. It's a formality. Yeah. You could even say it's sort of metaphorical, like, what is this card? You know, what is this lanyard? And I could say, well, it gets you access into the building, which otherwise you wouldn't have.

[9:09] Michael: Yeah.

[9:10] Matt: And you're like, well, that doesn't really mean anything about my job or what I'm going to do. You know, it's just, it's a utility. But then there are all kinds of people, like everyone knows the term imposter syndrome. You show up and you don't think that you're worthy of the thing that you're being asked to do or given access to do. And when I was in college,

[9:39] Michael: a

[9:39] Matt: friend of mine started playing this game

[9:42] Michael: because we were broke.

[9:43] Matt: We couldn't get anywhere, but we wanted to go to like concerts and stuff. And so we started to try this experiment where we were both musicians, we looked like musicians. And our hypothesis was, if I just act like I'm supposed to be here, nobody will ever stop me. And so we'd go around to the back to the load in area where the crew came in and the musicians came in and we would just walk in. And as long as you act like you're supposed to be there, nobody's going to question you. Nobody's going to ask you for the lanyard to prove you are who you say you are. So there's an issue there with confidence and belief. And I can say that works 100%. And I've even later on in my life been in some pretty big concerts and been there with permission backstage because I have friends that play for some pretty famous People. And even in those situations, I can pretty much just walk in without any credentials. Nobody stops me and asks me. And that has something to do with confidence. It has something to do with, you know, I'm comfortable in that environment. You know, people who are not supposed to be there, you generally kind of see they're not comfortable. And you might observe that in a new employee who has the access. They are supposed to be there, but they're not comfortable. And so you're like, who are you? What are you doing? So there is something, I think, that does change. And in one sense, you can and do get it or should get it from the official recognition that's given to you in the sense of a job, and you get your access card. But there's another way, another part of that, which is the confidence that should come with that, that often we miss. And the confidence which is so effective that it supersedes the authentication process in the first place. So I guess it's harder to see when speaking of something with God. But it's like, is it metaphorical or is it real? Is it a real change? Well, I can say that adopting a certain belief can produce a real, measurable, quantifiable change in life. Another example that I would submit is I'm sure people are familiar with the fact that placebo pills work just as effectively as any other pharmaceutical we've ever invented. What is that? Is that metaphorical? Is that just simply the power of belief? I would say, if that's the case, maybe it seems metaphorical, but it's obvious that the power of belief can produce real physical changes in the body, not to mention the soul and the mind and the spirit.

[12:36] Michael: Yeah, what is that? Because it's. It's interesting because it's not that you just can't. You can believe anything. So, you know, if I give you a placebo for to fly, you know, like, oh, yeah, and you believe it, then you're gonna be very disappointed. Find out that you can't fly. I don't know.

[12:54] Matt: There was a movie that I used to love when I was a kid called the Boy who Could Fly. Did you ever watch that?

[12:59] Michael: I think so. That sounds familiar.

[13:00] Matt: He just believed hard enough in the last scene of the movie is him taking off. I mean, you know, we say that as if, yeah, there's something there that we can't. Like, that's impossible, right? I wouldn't be so sure about that. Why is it that that would be impossible? And yet, you know, this gets back into, well, is it a metaphor? I mean, Jesus says if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could tell that mountain to cast itself into the ocean and it would do it. I mean, he's talking about impossible things.

[13:32] Michael: Yeah.

[13:33] Matt: And maybe he doesn't use the example of, you know, personal willful flight just because it would seem absurd or something, but I don't know, the casting the mountain into the sea, that seems pretty absurd.

[13:45] Michael: Well, he walked on water, too.

[13:47] Matt: Yeah. And he walked on water and he said, you will do greater things than these. So I'm not so sure that these things that we take for granted as impossible really are impossible.

[13:59] Michael: Yeah. Actually, after I said that, I kind of agree with you. It's like, I don't know what is possible, honestly.

[14:04] Matt: Right.

[14:05] Michael: It's like, I think I've mostly seen, like, how belief limits people more than I see belief. That's like empower, you know, that has taken people beyond their limits, you know?

[14:18] Matt: Yeah, well, I mean, I would say just 30 years ago, I probably would have said it's probably impossible that cars can drive themselves. I would have said, well, we're going to need some kind of tracks. We're going to need something that tells them where, you know, physical, that tells them where to go. And just through sheer determination and belief and engineering. There's so many cars without drivers in them around Austin. Yeah.

[14:52] Michael: Yeah. It's pretty wild. It's almost.

[14:54] Matt: There's cars without, there's cars without steering wheels.

[14:57] Michael: Yep.

[14:58] Matt: So, you know, I think we accomplish things that seemed impossible all the time.

[15:04] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Especially in the natural. I, I, I, I don't know. I really don't know what is possible. Like, and I don't want to, I kind of limit myself from trying to limit myself. It's like. But I mean, I think that's like, to be able to. Okay, so, so, so, you know, there's, there's things like the catechism. Catech. Catechism. Where when you become a Catholic, it takes nine months to, to become a Catholic. I think there's like something really powerful in that is sort of like, okay, hey, before you commit to this, we're going to take you through a program to kind of teach you about what this is so you're not just kind of like blindly, you know. And so when you first show up and I'm just kind of guessing, it's like, what am I doing here? And they, they basically say, hey, this is what you're doing here and we're going to take you through this. And that's, I mean, that's kind of like. Religion in general is like. It's kind of like indoctrination. You know, here's a set of beliefs that we have and we hold to. And if you decide to come on board, then, you know, you kind of have to hold these.

[16:20] Matt: You have to affirm these.

[16:22] Michael: These certain beliefs. I mean, you find that in cults and businesses and everything. It's like modern politics, family dynamics. You know, it's like, hey, this. This is our family. And this is kind of like, if you. To be a part of this family, this is what you kind of have to hold to. You know, whether it's strict or loose doesn't matter. There's a set of.

[16:44] Matt: Speaking of John Dutton, the catechism is not an inch.

[16:48] Michael: Totally take him to the train station. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I mean, I think we could probably spend some time. I don't know where you want to spend time at, but just talking about how all that is sort of embedded in the natural and, like, why is that? And. Or kind of spend time into, like. Like, what is it with. You know, what Jesus talks about is like, I am the way, the truth and the life. And like, you know, I am the Father, and the father is me, and you are in me. And. And it's like. Like it's. It's. It's calling it. It's. It's kind of a calling to something, a reality that is more than just signing up for a job, you know? Yeah. You know, it's like. But there's a sort of, like, you see the same echoes in Jesus's voice as, like, God in the garden, where he's like, adam and Eve ascend, and he's like, where are you? And it's like God knows where they're at, but he's calling to them, where are you? And Jesus is kind of wanting the same answer from us. It's like, where are you?

[18:01] Matt: And Father's in me. Where are you?

[18:05] Michael: Where are you? And then, you know, they come out and then God clothes them with the first sacrifice, you know, and covers them. And so it's like, there's something about. When you do answer that, where are you?

[18:22] Matt: I didn't catch that until somebody pointed it out to me recently. I say, somebody, the Internet, probably, my AI friend, that the first sacrifice of an animal was God, or the first killing of an animal was God killing an animal to clothe Adam and Eve, at least the first one documented. Yeah, I mean, I don't assume necessarily that Adam and Eve were vegetarians. Before that. I don't know.

[18:48] Michael: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I don't know how that works. I can't think. There's a whole. I can't take that more as a allegory or.

[18:57] Matt: Yeah.

[18:58] Michael: The whole story. But. But yeah, I mean, it's just. It's just sort of like. I think that's something that like God is calling out the mankind, is like, where are you?

[19:09] Matt: Yeah.

[19:10] Michael: And then he sends his son to say, you know, hey, here I am.

[19:16] Matt: Well, that's so interesting because in. In the Garden of Eden, when God says, where are you? It's not a materialist kind of question. It's not where are the atoms in your body? And it's also not a question that's not relatable. Like, it's totally relatable. We've all said that to somebody at some point. You're in the car with somebody, hey, where are you right now? It's like, we're both in the car, but you're not here. Where are you?

[19:43] Michael: Totally.

[19:44] Matt: Which means that we can. And we can be somewhere else even though our body is here. What's up with that? No, seriously, what's up with that? I think our modern sort of post industrialist, information age, post enlightenment, postmodern brains, materialist brains, that think of sort of the idea of science as the ultimate truth, think that a question like where are you? Is a question about the material of our body. And yet we just intimately know that that is certainly not the case. You can be somewhere else even though your body is here. What does that say about your reality? I mean, if you're always somewhere else outside of your body, that's probably not good. You're not going to be good having good relationships. You're probably not going to be able to have very many intimate relationships, maybe not even be able to hold a job. It's like, that's not advisable. You need to be in your body. And what does it mean? Maybe the question is something like, what does it mean to be maximally alive? Dissociated is not maximally alive. Yeah, maximally alive has something to do with the present and being fully here. And how do you be fully here? And that starts to sound very non arbitrary to me. Like when you first used the word arbitrary about God, I bristled a little bit because I just thought. I think somehow by definition, God has to be the least arbitrary thing that there is. He is the thing by which we judge others, other ideas or concepts or ways of living as arbitrary to the extent that they do not align to God.

[21:41] Michael: Yeah.

[21:42] Matt: And I don't even necessarily mean the Christian God or the God of the Bible. I just mean God as the highest value. So what does it mean to live fully, to be fully present and fully here? That's not an arbitrary question. And it sounds like the answer is, I don't know. What is the answer?

[22:13] Michael: I don't know. One thing that kind of popped in my head as you were saying that was just sort of like, who really cares? Like, I just live my life. Like, I go to work and I try to excel at that, and maybe if I have a family, I try to be a good dad. And it's like, this seems like a bunch of nonsense to me. Like, what is this, like, greater reality that you're talking about? I think that kind of works for a while.

[22:42] Matt: Feel that way. Or are you. Are you adopting?

[22:44] Michael: I'm adopting. Yeah. That perspective is just sort of like, is. And I hear that from other people. They. They say that is sort of like, well, that God stuff is just, you know, it's too confusing. And, you know, what God do I believe in? There's so many of them, you know, how do I know it's true? And I just try to be a good person. And it seems like, oh, okay, that's good. You want to be a good person.

[23:13] Matt: Well, last week we were talking about how once you realize that you cannot get out of submitting to something, and once you recognize that you might start asking a question, well, what is the best thing to submit to? And then we sort of played with the idea that there is an alternative to submitting to something, and that is to destroy the thing that you might submit to. And then I suggested that there was a third option, which was to just kind of ignore the whole problem. And I think that's the worldview that you're taking on there, which is like, why does it matter? You know, I just need food on my table. I need to go to work, I need to get there. I need to be somewhat comfortable, you know, drink water, eat food, have sex, be comfortable, minimally. Take care of what needs to be taken care of so I don't experience too much trouble.

[24:04] Michael: I think that's worldview is more sustainable if you don't have people in your life, you know, like, oh, I just kind of. I try to be a good person. I do these things. I want to be good. I want to be good at my business or whatever it might be. If you don't have any real relationships, I think that is a little Bit easier. I think it's still, as. It still leads to a bankruptcy. But I feel like you can kind of, like, you can kind of, I don't know, ride that horse a little bit longer before it dies. And the reason why I say that is, like, is like, if you have any real relationship, whether it's your kids or, you know, a wife or husband or, you know, just even intimate relationships that you just don't walk away with at a disagreement, it's like you're going to be challenged. Like, well, I don't think that's good. Why do you think that's good? Like, actually, what you just did really sucks, and it hurt me. And so you have to deal with it. Like, oh, wait, I thought that was. I thought I was a good person. Like, where did I go wrong? Obviously, something is off. Either I'm off or they're off, or we're both off. And then you start to have to actually deal with something outside of yourself. Like, we have different ideas. Either that or we need to end our relationship because we don't share the same values. Arbitrary values. Like, we're not appealing. We don't have nothing to appeal to outside of, like. Or you have to resort to force. You know, it's like, no. In this household, this is the way you do it. If not, then there's punishment for not doing that. You know, does that kind of make sense?

[25:45] Matt: Yeah, because I think the moment that you start entering into relationship with people, you come up against this problem of love. And Lewis so wonderfully puts it that to love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything. A child, a lover, a pet. Your heart will be wrought and most likely broken. The only way to protect it from being broken is to make it unbreakable by putting it in a coffin, essentially building walls around it, and there it becomes hidden. So that's to cut off relationship. Yeah, and that's a lonely place. Lewis says that the only place free from the risk of the perturbations of love. How does he say it outside of heaven is hell. Something like that. So you have this problem, and you have the further problem of, you know, if you're taking this. I'm just going to ignore this whole kind of prop, this issue, you know, just let me be acceptably comfortable. Well, you have to have some relationships, right? You have to talk to the person at the checkout counter when you're buying groceries. You know, you have to talk to the person who's gonna change your oil. You have to talk. You have to talk to People. And what's the first thing we say when we talk to somebody, A stranger especially. How you doing today? How long can you answer that question honestly before you break?

[27:33] Michael: Yeah.

[27:34] Matt: Before you say, I can't lie anymore. I'm horribly lonely and unfulfilled. Today has been one of the worst days of my life, and nothing has really happened. I mean, I think that that's the inner hell that so many people struggle with. It's like nothing's really exactly wrong, but my heart is suffering, and I can't talk to anybody about it. I think that's what we might call depression.

[28:03] Michael: Yeah.

[28:03] Matt: Or anxiety, for that matter. Just like the lack of ability to talk to somebody about what's really going on inside of us. It's not. It's not sustainable. I think you're right. You can get away. You can ride that. How'd you put it? You can ride that horse for a while.

[28:18] Michael: Yeah.

[28:20] Matt: You know, but every horse has to stop. Stop and drink water eventually, or they're going to die underneath you.

[28:25] Michael: Yeah.

[28:26] Matt: I mean, that. That game has a limit.

[28:30] Michael: It's interesting. I feel like there's a picture being painted here that I don't know if I can really grab completely. But I see some of these things that we talk about. I see how they can function outside of God, but it's such a momentary and fleeting moment. And the more that you don't include that reality, it's like the more your life starts to deteriorate from underneath you because you have to start plugging the holes of the boat. It's like. It's like the boat works for a little while, but it's like, as you get going, it's like the. Like, there's like, more and more holes in the boat because it's like you're encountering more and more. More and more reality. And that reality is actually posing more problems. And those are the holes in the boat you. But if you don't go anywhere in the boat, you just kind of, like, sit there. It's like, then you're just sitting there and you're not going anywhere. And then that's kind of like. I think my boat analogy kind of dies there. But I just see this, like, okay, well, I just won't go anywhere, so I don't have to, like, encounter anything

[29:47] Matt: just to beat the dead horse. With the boat analogy, not many people who are living because I'm like, you're on a boat because you're going somewhere. Why else would you be on a boat? Well, there are people who live in houseboats. I wouldn't characterize people who live in houseboats as particularly fulfilled. Happy people.

[30:06] Michael: So much judgment there.

[30:07] Matt: Not to say that I know any of them. I'm just saying the archetype is like, oh, it's my alcoholic uncle. Or it's like my French divorced dad.

[30:16] Michael: A guy was a pilot and he lived on.

[30:19] Matt: That's right. He was all dreamy and got Rebecca. That's true. That's true. Houseboats, houseboat people. Exceptions.

[30:27] Michael: Or sleepless in Seattle, you know?

[30:29] Matt: Well, he was down and out, though.

[30:31] Michael: Yeah, but he wasn't.

[30:32] Matt: That's why he was living on a boat.

[30:33] Michael: He lived there with his wife and before she died and, you know, then.

[30:37] Matt: I haven't seen that movie. Okay.

[30:40] Michael: Just don't be judged by all the boat people. Right.

[30:42] Matt: Okay. Sorry. Are you planning on moving onto a boat?

[30:44] Michael: I think so. It sounds nice. Now, Allison couldn't do boat. She's. She gets seasick. Yeah. I just. I don't see the. I don't see how that. I think part of me is like, I'm trying to make it work also because it's like, the more that I try to make it work, the less it actually works. As far as, like. Like, how do you move through life without any. Anything outside. Without referencing anything outside of yourself? Like, it just doesn't. I think we kind of smuggle things in as if, like, oh, there is a morality. So I. And it's kind of like, oh, there's this God of morality that everyone should just know what it means to be good and that we should all do that. It's like, I wonder if they're saying, is it written into our DNA. Is it. If you're a materialist, it's like, is that. Is it a. You know, Dawkins talks about genes and memes. It's like, is that a useful meme that has been embedded in culture and we realize its benefits for our evolutionary survival, you know?

[32:01] Matt: Yeah. Well, if you want to go somewhere, you have to know where you're going, Apparently. Another fun fact for you, if you were somehow put into a field in which you had no points of reference, so just flat field in all directions that you can see. No landmarks, no nothing.

[32:27] Michael: Amarillo.

[32:29] Matt: Exactly. And you say, tell a person, walk in a straight line. Doesn't matter how hard they try, they won't be able to do it. They will turn left, and they will go in a counterclockwise circle, fairly large one. But the point is, if you don't know where you're going, you won't go anywhere. Even if you're moving, you will walk in a circle.

[32:51] Michael: Oh. Like, if you don't have any external markers to, like, guide you.

[32:55] Matt: Yeah. My understanding is this has been tested. I mean, this is like, humans cannot walk in a straight line with no external reference. So if you want to go anywhere, you have to know where you're going.

[33:07] Michael: Yeah.

[33:08] Matt: And it's not even enough to say, walk straight this way. It's like, you have to have something that you're aiming at. In a field with no landmarks, there's nothing to aim at. And so you will fail to go anywhere. So you have to aim at something that's outside of yourself in order to get anywhere. And it seems like, isn't it interesting that we all insist we need to get somewhere? Like, we are creatures of motion. We are creatures of advancement. We are creatures of progress. We are creatures of curiosity. We want to move somewhere. We have this innate sense. That's why we go explore things. That's why we build boats where, like, I'm sick and tired of Europe. It's got to be something else out there. Give me 30 people who are willing to sail off over the end of the earth. Who knows what's out there? You know, we do crazy shit like that. And then, you know, we're like, I think we've discovered almost everything on this rock. Could we go to that one up there that shines in the night or

[34:28] Michael: under the ocean where we haven't done a lot of exploring.

[34:31] Matt: Yeah. So there seems to be just something innate about or in us that wants to move towards something, to discover something, to go somewhere, to do something. You know, a person who stays spends all of their time in their house alone. You would expect to be a fairly depressed person. And the advice you might give that person is, hey, just try leaving your house, go outside, take a walk, go get dinner out. You know, like,

[35:06] Michael: my.

[35:07] Matt: My mom, after my dad died, she was like, I have to learn how to go out to dinner by myself because I can't just eat dinner alone in my kitchen every night. Yeah, I need to leave the house. And, you know, a lot of times there's no one to meet up with or whatever, so just go by myself. And I myself have done a fair bit of that. I actually quite enjoy, you know, going to my favorite restaurant, sitting at the bar alone. And you don't stay alone very long. You know, you start talking to the bartender or somebody sits next to you. You start talking to them, and all of a sudden you're encountering a world that you never knew before. Yeah, it's quite nice. So we've established this need for movement. And you can't move without aiming at something. And so what is it that you should aim at? I mean, this, you know, maybe we should talk about the alternative to this. Well, just give me some acceptable amount of comfort and then, you know, kind of leave me alone. Don't. Don't trouble me with questions like this.

[36:12] Michael: Yeah.

[36:14] Matt: And I would say, well, I think that, that, that that's going to ultimately break your heart, or you're going to have to make your heart unbreakable, which is indistinguishable from hell. So what's the alternative? And I think the alternative is to ask a question like this, like, what does it mean to choose something to aim at? And by what criteria would. Should you even decide?

[36:46] Michael: It's like, I've only been alive 48 years, but even in that 48 years, I, I see that it's like everybody has to fill that hole with something, you know, whether it's football or whether it's not. Any of these things are bad in and of themselves, but it's like, you know, their family, their job, and almost to the. None of those things are satisfying. And in and of themselves, they're all good things. But there has to be something higher. And I think that's where a lot of people sometimes turn to start turning to religion, whether it's Buddhism or, you know, meditation practices or health or, you know, to kind of feel that, that, that gap of meaning as far as, like, it's like, what am I doing with my life? And it just. It's kind of like an endless sort of Ecclesiastes chasing after the wind trying to fill that. And again, we kind of talked about something. It's three episodes back about like, there's a hole in it that just cannot be filled by anything other than, you know, God specifically, but something that is moving or heading towards the highest possible thing that you could think to aim at. And then. And if it's not God, it's like, I think what you find is like, you, you, you find the highest thing to aim at, and then once you get there, you're like, oh, I guess that wasn't the highest thing to aim at, you know, and then you aim at something higher. And then, you know, I think you play that, that game long enough. It's like you, you, you kind of have to either succumb to the idea that, oh, wait, maybe that is God that I Need to sort of aim at.

[38:34] Matt: While you were talking about things people use to plug the hole, you're talking about health. I thought about that guy Brian Johnson. You know, he's kind of obsessed with living forever, and he's spending all of his time and energy and resources and money to do it. And I think it's so silly, because why do you want to live forever? Like, what do you want to spend forever on? And if in order to live forever, you have to spend forever on trying to live forever, what good is forever? At what point do you go, ah, fuck this, just let me go, you know?

[39:12] Michael: Or just someone's going to live my life. What does that mean?

[39:14] Matt: Yeah, and it's interesting.

[39:19] Michael: So

[39:22] Matt: I have a hard time imagining anything that I would want to do forever. I think we talked about this a little bit before, but I'm like, anything that goes on forever seems insufferable to me. And maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part, or maybe it's just that I've never really experienced anything that's worth forever.

[39:50] Michael: This podcast for you. I could do this forever.

[39:54] Matt: Just infinity. Shores of Ignorance. Infinity Edition. Don't press play unless you're really sure.

[40:03] Michael: That's awesome.

[40:04] Matt: Once you press play, it never stops. But I think that what I find interesting is that. What is it that the good news of the gospel is? That's what gospel means, good news. What's the good news? The good news is that you will have everlasting life. You will experience forever. And that forever is not spent extending itself. It's not spent cracking the code of the next week of forever. And it's not spent enjoying any pleasure that you've ever experienced on this earth. That forever is being in the presence of true, pure love. That forever is the experience of being in the presence of glory. And I don't mean the glory of winning gold at the Olympics, although that is glory. We get a taste of the concept of glory. We get a taste of the concept of love. And when I imagine the few times in my life that I felt the euphoria of glory, and that could be being at a concert, could be listening to a symphony, or I expect, experience the euphoria of love, being with a lover in the moment of enraptured intimacy. In both of those cases, I would say, what is time? There's no time. This is everything. And those are both imperfect and fleeting tastes of. I think what we are promised in forever, we are promised the truest expression of those things, the intimacy of true love. And the glory of the ultimate performance. And it's somehow in a way that our temporal minds cannot fathom happening all at once everywhere. And eternity is not counted in days or weeks, months and years or millennia, because who counts time? Yeah, when shit's that good?

[42:57] Michael: Kind of made me think of like in Ecclesiastes 3:11, it talks about like, God has written eternity on the hearts of man. And I see this all around me. Especially like right now with like a kind of socialist and communist movement is like, what in the. In the. In some of the more, I guess pure forms of the desire and not the manipulation of the masses, which I see like in sometimes the leaders of these movements. But they're basically saying, hey, there's a better world out there. And even though I don't think you can do that through socialism or communism, I think there's a desire there that is actually like something good and true. Because I think even the Lord's Prayer talks about on heaven, on earth as it is in heaven. It's like we have this idea of what heaven is and we want to recreate that on earth. And I think that's built into all of us, but we just don't have the right map for it. And I think that's. We. Then we start to like, make up our own ideas. What is heaven on earth? And you know, it's like, oh, it's where we all share all of our goods with our neighbor. And it's like, yes, but there's. But something that has taught us is like, that also takes discernment because not. Your neighbor is not always going to be act in good faith. And so what do you do with that? And you know, some people would say it's like, well, you know, it's like, you know, your enemy asks you to go a mile, you go two miles with them, or slaps you on the cheek, you give them the other cheek, you know, um, but there's also just a wisdom involved there too, because, like, that's not sustainable if you allowed a group of people to do that. Basically, it. It runs a society into the ground if they're. If they're just taking from you. And so, you know, you know, there has to be some sort of, you know, acknowledgment of like, wait a minute. Actually, we're not good people, you know. You know, even our leaders aren't good people. You know, some. I think some do aspire to be. You know, it's like, I aspire to be a good person. I. I know I'm not, I live with myself, you know, and I think that's the part is like, you know, even, you know, we talk of like in God we trust. It's like yes, the president, but the president is also answerable to God. It's like we have a higher authority that we're, that we're aiming at now whether or not that the person in that office is doing that, that's a whole other thing. But we at least acknowledge like there's something higher than the President, there's something higher than the United States and that we are accountable to that higher power. So I think there's, I think there's just something with.

[45:51] Matt: Well, that was the idea. Right? Do you think that's still true?

[45:56] Michael: I think it is a little bit. I think we're definitely, we're moving into that sort of fourth turning where I think that's going to be challenged. And you see this a lot with like the ideas of the west and postmodernism as well as, you know, communism. And I would even say like sort of the SRI Law kind of stuff that's kind of moving into the west like that are incompatible with Western values, you know, which doesn't allow for like the freedom of religion and the, and the, you know, freedom of speech and the press and stuff like that. It's like it starts to come under sort of a totalitarian control. So, so yes, I think it still exists, but I think there's, I think if you look around us it's like we all acknowledge that there is, there is something better and I think we just have misplaced what that is. Like what is the better. And we substitute these ideals of communism or socialism or certain leaders for that.

[47:04] Matt: But wouldn't a greater idea, communist or socialist, wouldn't that be their exact critique of capitalism?

[47:13] Michael: How so? What do you mean?

[47:14] Matt: Well, you're, you're replacing the idea of better with what I call your own self serving greed.

[47:21] Michael: Yeah, I think, I think if you, if you define capitalism in that way, I mean there is like crony capitalism, but if you think about capital flowing to the needs of people, it's like what do you need? And supply and demand and value is what capitalism really should be. It's like, okay, hey, society is wanting this one thing. It's like, well they're willing to pay for that and they're not willing to pay for something else. Well, something else will go away and more of the things that people are wanting will be produced until it moves into something else. That was such a simple, that was Way oversimplification of capitalism.

[47:59] Matt: Well, and I agree with that. I think that's what capitalism is. It can't be anything else because if you don't build things that people want, then you will have to become communist. The solution to that is either to go build things people want or to build. Make it illegal for people to not want what you're building. Yeah. Which is what communism is. But I would say the communist critique or the socialist critique of capitalism is more like, well, you're making money by stealing from the labor of other people. Maybe they would say that. I don't know. That's actually more definitional of communism, actually. But why are we even talking about this? I don't want to talk about communism. Capitalism.

[48:55] Michael: Totally.

[48:55] Matt: At least not right now.

[48:57] Michael: The point, the reason I brought it up was more of like, you see people naturally moving towards an ideal. Now, whether the ideal is like, okay, practical or real is one thing, but more reachable or reachable. But, you know, if you can say anything, it's like no matter what,

[49:17] Matt: people

[49:17] Michael: are dissatisfied with one thing and wanting to replace it with another, thinking that will be a better thing. And it's something outside of themselves that has a certain principle. And ideas that are, they would say are more real and better than these other ideas. So they're already making a value judgment and saying this is objectively true for the most part. Because if they're not saying that this is objectively true, then they're really not. It's like it doesn't really matter whether it's capitalism, communism, or capitalism. Like, they have no real argument.

[49:49] Matt: Sounds pretty bigoted to me.

[49:51] Michael: Yeah. What is this?

[49:53] Matt: There's objectively true things, and some things are more valuable than others.

[49:57] Michael: Totally. But everybody says it.

[49:59] Matt: I mean, that's out hate.

[50:00] Michael: That's what, that's what communism says. It's like. It's like, hey, no, this is objectively better than what we're doing.

[50:06] Matt: Right. Well, I'm being sarcastic.

[50:09] Michael: Yeah, I totally do.

[50:10] Matt: I don't think you can get away from the objective nature of value and keep your sanity. And that's kind of a. That sounds like a very radical statement in this day and age. There are objectively things of value, which means there are objectively things that aren't valuable.

[50:34] Michael: Yeah.

[50:37] Matt: And to recover your axiom that there's an objective reality and I have a subjective experience of it, I may not be able to fully capture exactly what objectively has value, but I'm sure that it is there. And I think you're sort of Starting to lay out the case that the human experience says this. Yeah, we observe it everywhere, all the time.

[51:05] Michael: Totally. Or even, you know, you people say this with. With friend groups too. Like, hey, my friend group and those people I'm closest to have more value than somebody outside of my friend group. It's like, oh, wait, okay. The hierarchy just went like, your. Your people over other people. It's like, why is it that your people have more value than these other people? It's like, oh, you know, because I have relationships with them, they mean something to me.

[51:35] Matt: Right.

[51:36] Michael: These other people don't mean anything to me. It's like their worldview is so small that it's like it only exists for those people. But then it's like, but do they really have any real value? Like, are they. Like, where are you getting this meaning from? Like, they mean something to me. And so I think that's. It's like the. The bigger the system that can include more. That circle, include more people. It's like. Like, you see that the value of that is even greater than any sort of, like, immediate friend group. It's sort of the same idea of, like, we are created in God's image. It's like, oh, wow, every single person born here on Earth or maybe on Mars one day. But. But it is like. It's like they're. They're. They bear the image of God.

[52:21] Matt: They have eternal value.

[52:22] Michael: They have eternal value. And that's something that in the United States, States put it into our Constitution. That's like, we the people. Oh, shoot. What does that say in their Constitution?

[52:32] Matt: I think you're thinking of the Declaration of Independence, but I actually heard somebody make a really compelling argument that when people try to separate the Declaration of Independence from the Constitution, say, well, the Constitution doesn't reference God and doesn't have these concepts in it. And somebody was making the point that the Declaration of Independence is the intent and value structure by which the structure of government arises. The Constitution is the structure of government, not the values that undergird it. You need both documents for the Constitution to mean anything.

[53:16] Michael: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but sort of like the Declaration is like, this is why we're doing this.

[53:21] Matt: Yeah.

[53:22] Michael: And then. And the Constitution is. This is what we're doing.

[53:26] Matt: Yeah, exactly.

[53:27] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting. I never thought about it like that. That's cool. But. But I think that's the part where I keep coming around to. It's like all this is embedded into everything that we do. Like, we're declaring value and that somehow the value that I'm declaring has more value than what you're saying. And obviously postmoderns will say, like, it's more of a. It's all about power. But I think it's just really. Just saying something about the nature and the fabric of the universe is that it's like, no, there is a hierarchy of value. And depending on how high you go with that is how destructive your lower values will do. Because communism is great. And I feel family unit, you know, to eat. Oh, I might get it wrong, but teach. Give a. Teach according to his kind, to each

[54:24] Matt: according to their need, to each according to their ability.

[54:27] Michael: Yeah, it's like that. That works great in a family, and that. That should be the way the family is. And there's kind of a socialism that happens within small circles, you know, because, you know, the people. And there you have a certain social credit that you have and carry with people that you can. That can kind of mitigate.

[54:47] Matt: Yeah, sure. So it's like you're out to dinner with seven or eight friends, and the check comes and we should go. Let's just split it seven ways.

[54:54] Michael: Seven ways.

[54:55] Matt: And somebody's gonna be like, yeah, well, but Dan had four beers, and I only had one. But, you know, we'll just hope that it all pays off at the end because this is gonna be a repeatable game. We're gonna have dinner a bunch more times and.

[55:07] Michael: Or like, you know what? I make more than most of these people, and so it's like, that's totally fine. I'll take a little bit more of this. But it's out of a choice to do that. So. Yeah, so I think that. I think there. All those things do work in certain. Certain environments, but it doesn't. It doesn't translate as it. As it goes further and further out from those small communities, you know? So, yeah, I think that's the part is like, God has written eternity on the man, on the hearts of man, and. And there's something in us that sort of longs for a better world, you know, also just to be treated fairly, I would say.

[55:54] Matt: I don't think that there's something in me that longs for eternity. There is something in me that longs for something that makes eternity worthwhile. There's something in me that longs for something that makes the 80 years of my life worthwhile. You know, there's a part of me that I'm like. I'm not sure I can even just fill a single day with something worthwhile. Much less a month or a year, much less 80 years, much less eternity. But I can surely tell you that that breaks my heart. And I long deeply for something to be worth the time, for something to be worth doing, ultimately, to be worth doing so much that the concept of time itself becomes irrelevant. And I say, I would do this without ce. And like I said, I've had a couple of tastes of that. And it does seem to me like the only, You know, besides our experience of glory and love here on this earth within this time period, it seems like the apostles in the New Testament seem to be saying, you've gotten a taste of something real and it's there, and it's so good that all of this pales. Be excited, y'. All. And I wanted to go back to the kingdom of heaven idea because you said the king on earth, as it is in heaven. And you sort of. You correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to say that that's us wanting heaven now. But that prayer is not a man's prayer. That prayer is Jesus teaching man how to pray. And I think that there is a very real sense in which the kingdom of heaven is here and now. I think Lewis, in the Great Divorce

[58:23] Michael: says

[58:26] Matt: essentially something like, or maybe it's mere Christianity, way to glory. I don't know. Assuming it's Lewis. I think it's. Lewis says something about how to those who end up in heaven, it will seem to them that they have always been there. And to those who end up in hell, it will seem to them that they've always been there. And I think the idea with that is, you know, we're not really very aware of where we are. We're not good at paying attention to things. We can feel desperate and impoverished and then remember, oh, you know, then you have some experience with your children and you go, oh, my God, I'm the richest man alive. It doesn't matter. And it's like in that moment, it isn't that your reality has changed, it's that some scales have dropped from your eyes. And I think that ultimately, when we're in heaven, it will not be reality which has changed, but it will be us who have changed. It will be our ability to see and to experience. And I think it's the same with hell, but I think it's in the opposite direction. It isn't that reality has changed. It is that, well, I have locked myself out of it. I've locked myself away from anything good ever touching me. And what is that experience? And you could ask the same questions we were asking about God earlier. It's like, is this metaphorical? You know, we all have this sort of version of hell that's constant fire. Well, I'm familiar with that feeling. Loneliness is like a constant fire. Depression and anxiety make me feel like I want to crawl out of my skin, like I want to tear a hole in my head and just rip my skin off and get out. That sounds pretty hellish. That sounds like the fire and brimstone Baptist preacher version of hell, you know? And that's just a taste, and that's what I think. Locking yourself out of contact, locking yourself away from love, that's the experience of it.

[60:51] Michael: Yes. It reminded me of someone that I forgot who said this, but it probably was like, C.S. lewis or something. But in the end, God will say, will either say, thy will be done, or God will say, your will, your. Thy will be done.

[61:06] Matt: That's Lewis again.

[61:07] Michael: Yeah. And just this whole idea of, like, there are hope.

[61:09] Matt: There are those who will say, God, thy will be done, and there are those to whom God will say, thy will be done,

[61:18] Michael: which makes a lot of sense. It's like, you know, like, we have this opportunity to acknowledge God and to live in his reality and to say, thy will be done, like, you know, Jesus did. And if you just deny that, it's just sort of like God's just like, hey, I can just basically say, hey, I actually want you to be here with me. But, like, you know, if that's what you choose, then, all right, I'm going to give that to you. That's like, what you're choosing. This is not my desire for you, but this is what you're choosing.

[61:51] Matt: It's. It's much more profound than that. I heard. I think it was John Piper say it's that, but not just, I'll let you choose that. It's as if God himself strung himself up on a tree in front of the gates of hell and said, if you want to go in there, you can go over my dead body. And that's exactly what happened. If you want to go in there, you're going over my dead body.

[62:31] Michael: Yeah.

[62:34] Matt: Which is what a good father says to his children.

[62:37] Michael: Yeah.

[62:37] Matt: Who he cannot stop or will not stop from making an error.

[62:44] Michael: Oh, it's like the. The prodigal son, like, the son wanted to go away and take his inheritance. And the father's like, okay, here's your inheritance. And then the son goes away, and then he learns, like, oh, wow. Actually, at my father's house, he loved Me at least slept. Slept well, you know.

[63:03] Matt: Yeah.

[63:04] Michael: And like, you know, he could have just like, died in his misery, but he chose to come back and say, I will be. I'll be a servant in your home. And the father's like, no, you're my son. Was still a party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting to even. It's like the reality that Jesus paints is something that is so profound. And also that, like, if you live that reality, like, you say yes to that reality. It's like. It's sort of like we were talking about earlier. It's like what belief does. It's like when you believe in the right things, it's like worlds open up to you that you didn't know was there, you know, and that's the part that I.

[63:54] Matt: You can literally find yourself backstage at a Matchbox 20 concert.

[63:57] Michael: Totally. Just believe in Jesus. That's great. This is the wealth gospel. Yeah. Believe in Jesus and you get to go to matchbox 20. Yeah, there's something. There's something about that, like. Like, just the. Like, once you start scratching on that. On that door, it's sort of like it doesn't take much to kind of like, for that to open up. It was like, for me, you know, I've probably been walking with God probably like 28, almost 30 years or whatever, and. And it's like the more that you scratch on the door and the more that it opens, you're like, oh, my gosh, Like. Like, I feel like Peter so much is like. Like, even when I don't know what the hell I'm doing, I'm just like, well, where else do I go? Because this is like. Like Jesus has had the most, like, value, valuable input into my life than anything else. It's like, it's like, where else do I go? You know, it's like I've. I've studied Buddhism, I've studied Islam, I've studied Baha' I faith. I've studied all. Most of the philosophers.

[65:07] Matt: Baha', I, Baha'.

[65:09] Michael: I.

[65:09] Matt: What is that?

[65:10] Michael: Was. It's sort of like he's like. So after Muhammad and this is like. I think it was, I don't know, 1800s or something like that. It's been a long time since I've studied. It's been a while, but it's basically like he's the last. The next prophet, you know, that is bringing in the good news and stuff like that. So it's. There's not really a whole lot to it, but now that I have to go back and Refresh my memory on it. But I went to, like. I went to their church and, like, sat with them and talked with them. I just asked so many questions. Oh, now I gotta. I gotta remember all my Baha' I anyways. And it's just like, I just haven't found anything that has that reality that. That draws you to something that is more. And like, this is the questions I have even with, you know, following Jesus is sort of like. It's okay, okay, what is this? Like, like, where does this go? Like, I. Even after doing this for over 30 years, it's like. It's like I feel like I've barely scratched the surface of what. What this is. I think that's kind of like what heaven is too, is like, except for, you know. You know, it's just like a constant, like, being drawn into, like, the presence of, like, who God is. And. And I feel like that's what just this journey on earth is. Is like if you. If you start to kind of like, sort of like open yourself up to it, it's sort of like there's so much that enriches that your life that you're like, okay, I can't see anything else like. Like that God loves every single person that he's in conversation with. Every person, and he's in conversation with me, and there's areas that I'm not listening to Him. You know, it's like, that's just true. And so there's this part about it. It's like, well, maybe if I just work harder, I can know God better. It's like, actually, no, it's like, it's not about working harder. It's like, you know, God just loves you and, like, you have to accept that. It's like, you can't work for this. It's like. But also at the same time, it's like there's a sort of like, he rewards the effort also, you know, but it's not. Your effort's not what's gaining you the knowledge. The knowledge and understanding and intimacy with Him. Sort of like the whole idea is like, without faith is impossible to please God, because anyone comes to him must believe that he exists, and he rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Yeah, it's like, it's like, you know, you can't. You can't earn this.

[67:44] Matt: Isn't that the way that it is in our, like, in the here and now, in our. Our fleshly relationships? It's like, I love my children. They've never had to earn it, you know, And I Know, there's people who say I was always trying to earn the love of my father, and I could never earn it.

[68:06] Michael: Yeah.

[68:07] Matt: And I think it's kind of like. I think it's just that your father didn't love you.

[68:12] Michael: Yeah. Or didn't know how to love you.

[68:13] Matt: Or didn't know how. And there's no price that you could pay to fix that.

[68:16] Michael: No.

[68:17] Matt: And you were trying. You know, my. My parents loved me. Still do. Wasn't on account of what I did. Never earned it. Never asked for it. As far back as I can remember, felt loved by my parents.

[68:40] Michael: Yeah.

[68:42] Matt: And that's the way I feel about my kids. As soon as I met him, I loved them. There was no basis for it. There was no evidence for it. There was no experience to justify it or even to sort of describe it. It's like you've fallen in love with another adult. You can describe the experience. It's like, oh, man. There was just this thing, and we caught eyes, and I just saw something in her that I've never seen anybody else. And then we did this thing, and it was just delightful. And we just talked for hours. And it's like you meet a baby. There's none of that.

[69:15] Michael: Especially your baby. That can't. Yeah.

[69:18] Matt: Except it's your baby. And there's some understanding in you that this is your child. And it's one of the deepest experiences of love I've ever experienced. And it comes out of seemingly nowhere. You know, you fall in love with this thing that can't do anything, could barely open its eyes. So what could that child do to earn my love? Nothing. There's nothing that child could do to earn my love. Even if I wanted it to earn my love, it's not capable.

[69:54] Michael: Yeah.

[69:56] Matt: And yet I love it. So it's like, if that's the way that our familial relations are, why would it not be something like that with this God whom, when we ask how to pray to him, he says, say, our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done. We are told to address him as Father. And I. I guess I can only assume that God would tell him to address us as Father because he feels like he's our father. I mean, I want my children to address me as Father, not as Matt, not as Mr. McCloskey, as Father. I would say to my children, call me Father or Dad or Dada or Daddy or, like, whatever stage you're in, you know, I'm not Matt to you.

[70:59] Michael: Yeah.

[71:00] Matt: I'm something far greater than that.

[71:02] Michael: That's a subcategory of. Of dad.

[71:05] Matt: Of dad. Yeah, totally.

[71:07] Michael: Yeah.

[71:09] Matt: And it's interesting because I think that's interesting.

[71:10] Michael: It's actually the hierarchy of that too. Like to anybody else, you're Matt.

[71:14] Matt: Yeah.

[71:14] Michael: And then subcategories are underneath that. But to your kids, the highest thing is dad.

[71:19] Matt: Yes.

[71:20] Michael: And then Matt is a subcategory of dad. Oh, that's really interesting.

[71:23] Matt: Yeah, it is. And I can see, it's funny, I can see my 2 year old playing with these concepts. She's starting to ask people's names and she does it all the time. So she'll be like, dad, what's your name? And I'll say, my name is dad. She goes, no, no, your name. Yeah. She knows I have a name that other people call me.

[71:44] Michael: Yeah.

[71:44] Matt: And so it's Matt. Okay, mom, what's your name? Her sisters. Hey, what's your name? And she's going around the table doing this. And then it's interesting because she hasn't totally figured out, or maybe she has and she's not. She's not okay with it. But she has figured out that her sisters are her sisters. But I'm also her sister's dad because she has a different mom. And when confronted with this and her sisters, who are in their teens, are kind of having fun with her about this, they'll say, do you know who our dad is? And my two year old will kind of play dumb. And then they'll point at me, that's our dad. And she gets. My 2 year old gets rather upset about it, like almost a little distraught. Like, no, that's my dad. Like, which is kind of revealing that the dad category is higher than the name category. Because she's like, no, that's mine. No one else gets to that. Yeah, no one else gets that with him.

[72:46] Michael: It's like for your youngest is sort of like. Like, I'm Michael. I'm not your dad. You know, I don't, I don't have. I'm not her dad. I don't fit that category. So it's like there's like nobody else. I don't know why I'm making this point again, but just something about that is so fascinating to me. It's like, like there's nobody else I can. Even if there was a. A stepdad or if you died and she was raised, but it's like you will always be that.

[73:12] Matt: Yeah.

[73:12] Michael: For her. And someone can maybe come in and be like a, A replacement or whatever.

[73:17] Matt: Fatherly figure.

[73:18] Michael: Fatherly figure? Yeah.

[73:19] Matt: Like dad, but never dad.

[73:21] Michael: Yeah. So that's really fascinating and I think

[73:25] Matt: spiritually so going back to this rebirth concept, we are to be born again. Our Father that we are born of.

[73:38] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[73:40] Matt: There. There is a father that we are born of, and he is saying, address me as such, and I will treat you as such. I want to treat you as my child because I love you as my child. And in a way, there is no greater love than that. There's nothing can break my love for my children. I have experienced broken romantic love, but the love for my children, you know, it's kind of like we were talking about the impact of Jesus over time and space. Nothing can extinguish it. I think we get a taste of that with our children. Nothing can extinguish my love for my children. Yeah. And even though I've lost my father, I. I don't think he stopped loving me because I also don't think he's dead. He's with Elvis. Well, it's my dad and Elvis and Michael Jackson and Kurt Cobain.

[74:51] Michael: Yeah.

[74:52] Matt: They're all hanging out.

[74:52] Michael: They're all hanging out.

[74:53] Matt: Yeah. And I don't understand why they won't invite me.

[74:57] Michael: I don't want them to invite you. I don't want you. Yeah, I think. Well, that's just really fascinating. You kind of brought the idea of, like, being born again. It's like, oh, part of that is like, recognizing the father. Oh, my. This is my father. And it's like I. I'm now. I'm now something else. Like, I've, like, as of up to this point, it's like I've identified as myself and everything. My entire, like, my entire world revolves around me. And then once you. Like, once you identify with the father, it's like your world now is like, that is your reference point. I guess you could also just exchange that reference point for a lot of other, like, like, incomplete reference points around you. But to be born again is like you. You exchange all those, like, other reference points for, like, the Father. And it's like that. That kind of sits above everything else. There's something in that that I didn't quite. I didn't quite make it to. But I'll have to. I'll have to think about because. Because, like, that was the part, like, even from our. The first of our conversation is like, that's the part I've been kind of, like, trying to put my finger on is, you know, when Israel goes from Egypt to The Promised Land. And then. But before that, they go in the desert and cross the Red Sea. It's like they become something else when they cross the Red Sea. Jacob becomes something else. When he wrestles with God, he becomes Israel real. You know, when Paul becomes Saul, Simon becomes Peter. Like, there's all these sort of transitions that we see that you. That you're actually becoming something else. And that's the part that when Jesus talks to Nicodemus, you must be born again. It's like you must become something else. And there's something that marks that. Like, where Jesus. You use the language of being born again. It's like, it's as if. As. It's as if you were born again. You know, you went into your mother's room, you came out again. It's like that. You know, I mean, I don't have a. I don't have a lot more clarity on that, but I think. I feel like it's. It's something. It just makes me more curious about it because I do see that active in the world around me, and I feel like I've also experienced it on, like, with God. But I definitely want to understand that. That better.

[77:34] Matt: Well, and it strikes me that, you know, you talking about all these other religions that you studied, this is the only one that has this concept.

[77:45] Michael: Oh, true. Oh, dude. Yeah.

[77:48] Matt: No one else has even tried to invent a competitor to this concept, which is hilarious.

[77:56] Michael: Like, here's the best story ever told, and there's not a competitor.

[78:04] Matt: No, I don't think there can be. I don't think there can be a competitor to the best ever. There can only be stories that lift it up. I mean, you might say the Lord of the Rings we love talking about is sort of a competitor to this story. The best story ever told. It's like, no, it's a retelling of that story. You could say the Narnia. No, it's a retelling of that story. And every good story is, in some way or another, a retelling of this story. This is the story that captivates us. I guess that's. That isn't to say that there aren't other stories which are captivating, obviously. I mean, people flew themselves into the towers on 911 because of a story different than this one. Obviously it was captivating.

[78:59] Michael: Yeah.

[79:01] Matt: But just it's fascinating to me that this is the only one that has this language that talks about the here and now, that we can be born again here and now. Not, you know, sacrifice yourself by killing Infidels. And then in heaven you will have 72 virgins and the rest of your family will go to heaven as well.

[79:24] Michael: Yeah.

[79:24] Matt: It's not just a promise of paradise, it's a promise of rebirth now.

[79:29] Michael: Yeah.

[79:30] Matt: And not only a promise of that, But God himself came into this world and shed his blood for it. That's another one that isn't anywhere else.

[79:48] Michael: Yeah. It comes back to what we talked about last time was like. Like bottom up or top down, you know, and that's what basically Jesus came in from the top down saying, hey, I am the son of God. You know, I'm here for you. And all the other religions is more of like bottom up. It's like you try to build this

[80:11] Matt: edifice or be a good person. Yeah, yeah.

[80:14] Michael: Be a good person. Follow these rules. You know, it's just. And that's just impossible to. To adhere to.

[80:22] Matt: Yeah.

[80:23] Michael: And then Jesus basically be born again into this higher place that is coming down to you. You don't have to come up to it.

[80:35] Matt: I really appreciated that part of our last conversation that if it's bottom up, you're screwed because you're an asymptote. You try to build a tower by stacking half of the last brick on the next brick. You will never reach it.

[80:58] Michael: Yeah. I need to go back to. And study Buddhism again. Because it's like. It's basically the idea of getting rid of desire altogether. It's basically like there is no bottom

[81:11] Matt: up and there is no sensation of desire. Yeah.

[81:14] Michael: Yeah.

[81:15] Matt: If I don't want it, then I'm not troubled. I mean, this is what the. You know, never have any expectations and you'll never be disappointed. And I just think, well, that's about the most foolish thing I've ever heard.

[81:27] Michael: Totally.

[81:28] Matt: It's like, of course that's not true.

[81:34] Michael: Yeah. I think the only thing I like about Buddhism is that it has taught me is that sometimes my desires are in the wrong place. But I don't think you can get rid of desire.

[81:47] Matt: Well, I think there is something of a virtue to something like stoicism.

[81:50] Michael: Yeah.

[81:51] Matt: You know, which is a. My desires are not going to rule me.

[81:54] Michael: Yeah.

[81:55] Matt: To have your desires under control is certainly a good thing, but to. To extinguish all desire is. Is a. It's an ouroboric incest is how I think Neumann would characterize it. It's. It's getting blackout drunk. You don't have any desires when you're blackout drunk. Is that where you want to be? Yeah, I think that's what it is. And to say, well, I'll be conscious and have no desires. Well, then you'll have no experiences.

[82:26] Michael: Yeah,

[82:29] Matt: it's like nirvana. Is it good? If the answer is yes. Well, then don't you want that? Oh, no, I don't want anything. So what is good? There's no experience of good if you don't want good.

[82:43] Michael: Yeah, it's nothing.

[82:46] Matt: It's nothingness. Yeah, it's. I think in a sense, it's worse than nihilism.

[82:53] Michael: Yeah, it's hard. Was it?

[82:54] Matt: Definitely.

[82:54] Michael: There's a smuggle in there, like where you smuggle in nirvana in this sort of like once you get rid of desire, sort of desire is fulfilled.

[83:02] Matt: Yeah.

[83:03] Michael: And it's like, wait, get rid of desire? But then desire is fulfilled. So there is desire. So it's just sort of like it, it's the. It's the promise of a gift with nowhere, no way to get there. It just. It just will appear once you. But then it's like, well, once it

[83:20] Matt: appears, no way for the transaction to occur.

[83:22] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, it's fascinating. But again, I think that's. That's coming back to what you just said earlier was just like. It's like the whole story of Jesus is like, there's just. There is nothing like it.

[83:38] Matt: Well, and one might say. Well, it sounds to me like what Jesus said, he who will save his life will lose it. Like, isn't that the emptying of desire that Buddhism is talking about? And I think. No, I think what Jesus is saying is that you have your. Your deepest desire. You are trying so hard to fill it with inadequate things. You need to empty yourself of all of those.

[84:08] Michael: Yeah.

[84:09] Matt: All of those things that you call self, that you call life. You're wrong about that.

[84:16] Michael: Those lead to death kind of thing.

[84:17] Matt: Yeah. What you really want, you need to go all in on. Yeah, all in. To the point. We were talking about certainty a couple of weeks ago, and we posited that maybe what you're willing to die for is what you're most certain of. Go all in on what you're most certain of. Go all in on what you most want. Which is not an easy thing to identify. It's like, what do I most want? I mean, I want all kinds of things, and mostly when I go after them, I find that isn't really what I want.

[84:52] Michael: Yeah.

[84:52] Matt: It's like sand through your hands, something deeper. And I think that Christianity is actually the opposite of Buddhism. Christianity is the.

[85:03] Michael: Your deepest desire will Be fulfilled.

[85:04] Matt: Well, it's sort of the call to say, no, go after your desires honestly and earnestly. I mean, Paul says that people sin because they love sin. They do what they love. The problem is not the thing that they're doing so much as that their love is pointed in the wrong place. They need to love God. That doesn't say so much about behavior as it says about direction. Well, like we said earlier, things have objective values, and we are assigning values to the wrong objects. And there's been a few people that have been very influential on my thinking, namely C.S. lewis. We bring him up all the time. And G.K. chesterton, both of whom were very serious atheists, so serious about their atheism that they became Christians, which is a funny thing. I mean, that sounds to me like he who will save his life will lose it. It's like you become so serious about something that you find. Well, Chesterton's example was basically, I earnestly set out to discover a new world, but I was so stupid, essentially, that I ended up landing back in my own harbor. It's like one of my favorite sentences ever written. I did try to find a heresy of my own, and when I had put my final touches on it, I discovered it was orthodoxy. Yeah, like, he found the thing he didn't want to find by seriously looking, which is the same as saying the thing you most need exists in a place where you don't want to look. That's. I don't even know if that's, like, attributable to somebody. That's the dragon with the gold. You want the gold. It's behind this terrible beast that you don't want to confront. That terrible beast that you don't want to confront. That's you. That's your own fear.

[87:28] Michael: Or the alchemist, where, like, he has to go on this long journey only to find that the gold was where he began.

[87:35] Matt: It was at home.

[87:35] Michael: All is at home all along. Yeah. Or like, you know, Jesus talks about, like, but seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things would be given to you as well. It's like. It's like once you point your desire in the right direction, it's like all. Everything else is given to you because it's all in the right context.

[87:52] Matt: That's the kingdom of heaven here and now. You point your desire in the right place, and everything you desire is there

[88:00] Michael: because a lot of things that you thought you desired, like, oh, no, that's not what I wanted. And you actually find what you really Actually desired. Well, what do you. Do you want to wrap it up or do you have any other things that you want to jump into?

[88:20] Matt: No, I think it's a good place to wrap it.

[88:21] Michael: Yeah. Any takeaways? You know,

[88:26] Matt: just that this. This life is extraordinary. And the more I encounter reality, the more shocked I am at how good it is. Even on my worst days. Yeah. Like, being conformed to reality, even when it's just. I don't understand. I have so many questions. It's a mystery to me.

[88:52] Michael: Yeah.

[88:53] Matt: That mystery becomes more beautiful and more worth exploring and more worth discussing, and I just fall in love with it more. So feel thankful for that.

[89:08] Michael: Totally.

[89:11] Matt: Yeah.

[89:11] Michael: I love that. I'm just more enamored with the idea of what this means. It's like when you believe something and you've tasted that it's good, but you realize you haven't even scratched the surface of what it actually is. And it goes along the same lines that you're talking about. It's just like, oh, how deep is this? Well, like, that's. That's worth exploring. And I think that's the part that makes me, like, even more wanting to pursue this further and further. It's like, but seek first his kingdom, his rights. All these things will be given to as well. It's like. It's like, I feel like I've tasted such a small aspect of that to show me that I haven't even really, like, begun. I think that's the part that you

[90:07] Matt: know things that you haven't gotten to the feast yet.

[90:10] Michael: Yeah, totally. And it's cool because it's like, I think when you. When you follow. When you follow Jesus, it also just, like, you start to look at everyone around you in a different way, like, oh, wow, what's their story? Like, what. What is God doing with them? You know, because, like, you know that he's working. You start to see that he's working on you and with you and in you in a way that you don't understand. And it's like he's actually doing that with everybody, and we're all in different places in that process, you know?

[90:40] Matt: Yeah.

[90:40] Michael: And so it just, like, it actually makes people so much more interesting. It's like, oh, what's going on with you? You know, what are you thinking about? What do you. How do you. How do you put this together? You know? Oh, you're. You're a Buddhist. Okay, well, why are you a Buddhist? Like, what. What's drawing you to that? You know, it's like, I don't know. Makes the world super interesting.

[91:05] Matt: Well, cheers to this interesting world and to our continued discovery of it.

[91:11] Michael: To. Yeah.

[91:14] Matt: Love you. Love you out there.

[91:16] Michael: Ciao.