You Are Traffic

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Okay.

[0:23] Michael: All right.

[0:25] Matt: Shall we?

[0:26] Michael: We shall. Let's do it. To the shores.

[0:28] Matt: To the shores. Cheers. Yeah. Okay, so we are in between the two ACL weekends

[0:42] Michael: and UT football play.

[0:43] Matt: UT football. It actually starting to feel like fall is coming.

[0:48] Michael: Oh, my gosh.

[0:49] Matt: Feels amazing.

[0:50] Michael: Outside really has. It's funny just anecdotally, it's like I just started reading a whole bunch more and I'm like, oh, this happens every time this year. I just get more, like, motivated to read. It gets cooler.

[1:03] Matt: Yeah.

[1:03] Michael: It's so weird, but I love it.

[1:09] Matt: It's great. I'm ready for seasons, both physically and metaphorically to change.

[1:14] Michael: Yeah.

[1:15] Matt: Yeah.

[1:16] Michael: But just so you guys know, we'll be hearing a lot about Red Rising from me probably in the next two or three weeks. It's a series. It's kind of a sci fi series.

[1:26] Matt: It's the book you just started.

[1:27] Michael: Just started just ripping through it. It's just so good. I can't put it down.

[1:31] Matt: Very cool.

[1:32] Michael: In fact, I almost didn't make it tonight.

[1:37] Matt: That must be really good.

[1:38] Michael: It is really good. Yeah. But it's so interesting. I think you and I have been talking about this. It's like, I think our lives are pretty chaotic right now, but I also just. The whole. All the things that just. We've been exploring over the last six or seven episodes now, and we're heading to 300 and I don't know, I've just been more and more excited about doing the podcast. I mean, I've always been excited about it, but it's just kind of even more so now.

[2:07] Matt: Just it seems like it's becoming something a little different than it used to be.

[2:11] Michael: Totally.

[2:12] Matt: Which I'm really enjoying.

[2:14] Michael: Yeah. Well, it almost seems kind of the natural progression is like. Is like you kind of have to. You kind of have to get a little bit, you know, deeper in yourself as you. As you do this. And, you know, there's a lot of progress you make, but there's also, you know, there's times of like, sort of where maybe even on our. Even our podcast, kind of talking a little more confusedly, and then all of a sudden we'll kind of like scratch on something and then it's like just kind of like flows for a period of time, and then you kind of have to like, explore a little bit, and then you kind of like grab onto something and then it just like rolls for a little. I feel like we've kind of like, that's something that's happened in the last, you know, six or seven episodes. We've kind of, like, found something to grab onto.

[2:57] Matt: I know it's great. I love it. And I don't want to jinx it

[2:59] Michael: by talking about it, so.

[3:02] Matt: Yeah. Well, I think just. I've just been. Maybe we both have been fascinated with the reality of things. The reality of reality. The reality of God. The reality of. Yeah. Reality itself. Just in reality, a lot of times there's something about that that has been opening up in our conversations that feels revelatory to me.

[3:36] Michael: I think it's hard because it's like, there's so many things we sort of take for granted and just kind of say, like, oh, man, do you see what that person did? That's good. Oh, did you see what that person did? That's bad. And like, whoa. Why is it good or bad? It's like. But you just kind of, like. You kind of get caught in the zeitgeist of maybe it's not even the zeitgeist, because that's kind of more of like the cultural phenomena of your age. And you just kind of just believe that that's normal and real. You know, kind of like you and I were talking about earlier. Just in one aspect of, like, you know, it's become normal to live with somebody before you get married to try it on.

[4:23] Matt: Yeah.

[4:24] Michael: And like, that was not normal for us growing up. They would happen. I mean, it's not like it was like. But it wasn't like, you didn't really talk about that. Like, it was kind of more of this. The idea would be that you get married, then you live together. But it's so. It's like, well, is that better? Is it worse? It's like, well, we really haven't, like, talked about that. It's just become part of the cultural malaise of this is what you do.

[4:52] Matt: Part of what you do. Yeah.

[4:53] Michael: We don't think about it whether it is that good or is that bad, you know, or like, you know, hey, let's. Let's wait to have. Get married and have kids till we're in our 30s. It's like, oh, well, that's just what you do. It's like you focus on your career, and then Maybe in your 30s or 40s, you try to have a kid and. But we don't think about it, like, what does that mean? And culturally and how has impacted us and can you do those things? Is that healthy? Is it.

[5:16] Matt: You know, when it didn't Used to be that way.

[5:18] Michael: Yeah.

[5:19] Matt: This is new. Yeah.

[5:21] Michael: So, you know, I think this is probably like within the last 50, 60 years. It's kind of like there's just a lot of new things that we just kind of accepted as a part of our culture that we don't. We haven't really acknowledged or analyzed whether it's good, some things are good and some things are not good. It's like, but what does that mean, good and not good? Is everything just arbitrary and subjective what you think it is?

[5:48] Matt: Yeah, it does seem like we have changed from sort of scrutinizing the way things are or the way that things should be to this position of the way things are and should be is obvious. It's obviously good or it's obviously bad. And if you need to scrutinize it, then you're bad. You're a bad person. So nobody really thinks about anything. Just sort of adopt the socially acceptable position on everything. And that's how ideas come to gain their merit, is based upon their social adoption rather than scrutiny of the ideas themselves.

[6:36] Michael: I think there's this whole thing about how this sort of happens. It's like it starts with your artist and then it moves to your philosophers, and then it kind of moves into your academics, and then it kind of. I forget all the different stages, but then it moves into the farmer that lives 100 miles from everybody else. It's like, well, how did this Camus idea reach this farmer in the middle of nowhere? It's like, because it kind of like, it sort of like filters its way down and through and. And then, you know, it's like, then you have someone, like, everything's absurd and, you know, it's like they find meaning and absurdity. It's like, where'd you get that from? Like, I don't know. I just believe it, you know?

[7:17] Matt: Yeah. Just kind of woke up in it. Speaking of artists, I was watching, you know, a lot of people posting clips of ACL on Instagram. And you know, a lot of people were posting clips because that's what they do at an event like that. But also there was a ton of rain and it was a mud pit, you know, there. And, and I was noticing that all of the clips people posted of musicians performing, the musicians were, well, largely, I didn't know who most of them were. They seemed to be largely 20 something women who were all somewhat sort of emaciated, very thin, and didn't look super healthy to me. And I don't think I. I think almost every clip I Saw I noted that they had no energy. They weren't like. You think of going to a concert and you imagine the performers just bouncing around and dancing and taking their shirt off and the crowd is screaming and, you know, it's like this big high energy thing. None of the clips I saw were that they didn't have energy from the crowd or from the performer. And I thought, this is really strange. And it wasn't even like the sort

[8:36] Michael: of

[8:38] Matt: last, most recent round of kind of pop stars. You had Dua Lipa, who was a very attractive woman, but she looked kind of healthy, or if you rewind back,

[8:51] Michael: sounds like an old man.

[8:54] Matt: They were sexual, but they weren't. They didn't to me, look unhealthy. And then the males, well, they were rock stars. You know, they were taking their shirts off. They were running around like crazy. You know, they were the sex, drugs and rock and roll kind of person.

[9:12] Michael: Yeah.

[9:13] Matt: And all the people I saw were like, everybody had shirts buttoned all the way up to the. The neck and not really moving. And all the music was sort of like there was no rock and roll. I don't think I saw any guitars. It was all electronics. It was like one person DJing and then this young girl singing. I thought it was very strange. And I wonder, what is it that our artists are communicating to us that will then start moving into the philosophers and into the academics?

[9:49] Michael: That's a really good. That's a really good question. Well, just even in what you were talking about right there is like, here's the reality that was presented to me. But what was the reality at acl? Yeah, I don't know. Who knows? It's like, unless you were there and you were paying attention, then maybe you could say like, oh, Matt, you're actually really wrong, or oh, wow, I didn't notice that, but now I do.

[10:12] Matt: Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to my daughters about it because they were there, but I haven't gotten to talk to them about it yet.

[10:17] Michael: Yeah, so it's really fascinating. But back to the artist thing, because it's not just musicians. It's your musician, your painters, your

[10:30] Matt: poets, authors.

[10:32] Michael: Yeah, and philosophers are there too, because the philosophers kind of come in, starting to explain the movements, what is happening. And it's sort of the zeitgeist of. Of the moment. And it's like most of the time the artists are the first to kind of like catch on to the. What the zeitgeist is. And it's not as it's good or bad. It can be kind of both too, because sometimes artists are sort of. They can be the jester too. It's like they're reflecting back to us, our ridiculousness, you know. You know, or they could be inspiring and calling us to something, you know, or they could be calling you to conform, you know, to a certain already played out or merging idea or. I don't know, what do you call it? Maybe philosophy is not the word I'm looking for, but sort of like, hey, well, I just think of like what happened at that. Nick Sheridan, is it? Sheridan. Nick Shirley Sheridan.

[11:49] Matt: Sheridan.

[11:49] Michael: The artist. The big artist that got. That had the guy that was up before talking about Palestine and all that kind of stuff.

[11:55] Matt: Oh, Ed Sheeran.

[11:57] Michael: Ed Sheeran. See, I'm so bad.

[11:59] Matt: Macklemore.

[12:00] Michael: Macklemore, yeah. You know, and he was out there sort of like, you know, here's what everyone should be on board with, you know, and, and in that sense, he was maybe fulfilling more of the poet or the philosopher in that or the political propagandist, you know, wasn't it McLemore

[12:18] Matt: was talking about Israel committing genocide in pre Palestine. That, that whole narrative.

[12:25] Michael: Yeah.

[12:26] Matt: And Ed Sheeran uninvited him from the tour for it.

[12:30] Michael: Yeah.

[12:30] Matt: And so there was a bunch of backlash because, you know, so many young people, I think, especially to have this pro Palestine position.

[12:41] Michael: From what I understood, it's like he was like, hey, this like sort of my concerts are about that. Like it's about an experience. And and so I think he, he felt like, he kind of says like, it's not that agree or disagree with him, it's just that that's. That has no place here.

[12:56] Matt: Ed Sheeran was saying that.

[12:57] Michael: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I think people were frustrated with him because they want him to be on one side or the other.

[13:06] Matt: Right.

[13:07] Michael: And it's sort of like.

[13:07] Matt: Well, it goes back to my point, is that all positions derive their merit from their social acceptance. And so if you don't accept what the social movement is saying, then you must be evil. So Ed Sheeran is a bad guy now because he's not participating in the acceptance of the social position.

[13:27] Michael: What's funny, because it's like I was thinking about like Peterson contacts, but the, the like Russian artists, it's like they really weren't artists, they were propagandists. It's like they're, they were, they were pushing an agenda. They weren't like going out into the ether and finding something new and bringing it back is basically they're puppeting the narrative. And so I feel like that's kind of the difference between sort of like, you know, is somebody, an artist that's, like, actually finding something new or listening to their muse, you know?

[14:04] Matt: Right.

[14:04] Michael: Or is it somebody that's, like, looking. It's basically a parrot of, like, what the. What the. What the beliefs of today are. And I think that's. That's really not the. That's not what the artist and the musician and are for. It's like they're supposed to, like, kind of, like, look out beyond the horizon.

[14:22] Matt: They're supposed to stare into the abyss and report back what they see. Yeah, I was really shocked to see. Are you following this Cornell 7 thing at all?

[14:31] Michael: A little bit. It's kind of. I just don't like the whole. Yeah, but. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

[14:37] Matt: Like, you know what. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. I was surprised that I saw one of the clips at acl. This girl came out, and she. One of the performers on stage came out, and she was holding up a sign that said, castrate the Cornell seven. And to me, I mean, I was really surprised because, for one thing, this is an emerging story. Like, we don't know what has happened.

[15:05] Michael: Well, there's a lot that we do

[15:06] Matt: know, but there's a lot we do. But to take that position, to say your position is you would like seven young boys castrated. That's your position. That feels to me like what you're talking about, like propaganda. That feels like propaganda for one side of a story, not like what an artist should be doing. You know, if you have something to say, well, maybe figure out what you have to say and find a way to put that into your art. But just simply holding up that sign saying, I'm on this side of this issue doesn't feel to me like art.

[15:46] Michael: Yeah. Art supposedly kind of like bring out the complexities of things.

[15:49] Matt: Right.

[15:49] Michael: It's supposed to delve into the depths of, like, you know, because, I mean, if you were to dive into the depths of, like, just this situation specifically, you'd be like, okay, well, there's sort of a sexual freedom and stigma that. That, you know, of today that women are trying to get away from is like, what if I want to have a seven. Some. A threesome or three. Three through them. So, you know, it's like, can I not do that? And a lot of the texts seem like she was a willing participant in this.

[16:17] Matt: Yeah.

[16:18] Michael: And so, again, I kind of want to stay away from making any, like, final judgments on this, but that's kind of like, you know, and so that's. That's kind of like where we're at with it. But then now it's like there's. Now this is sort of this idea of like, no, she wasn't a willing participant. It's like, well, how do you even determine if someone's a willing participant in this? It's like, you know, it's like, other than. I mean, probably some obvious things, but like, I don't want to get into this because 2. There's too many variables that I. Well, I. I think the point that I want to make, though, is that is like, you know, you have a Bonnie Blue that wants to. Her name is Bonnie Blue.

[16:59] Matt: Right.

[16:59] Michael: The one that did like a thousand people in a day or something like

[17:02] Matt: that there was two of them competing against, like, doing the same thing around the same time. Yeah, I can't remember which one Bonnie Blue was, but, yeah, I think she was either did in one day.

[17:11] Michael: So it's like there's part of our culture that says, like, hey, that's okay. If that's what she wants to do with her body, then that's fine.

[17:17] Matt: Yeah, we just had a thing called slutcon happen in the United States. Like, I don't know how you can have it both ways. You can sort of celebrate the degradation of sex, celebrate sluts, celebrate sleeping with a thousand guys in one day. And then on the other hand, say, well, but we also know what consent means, and we also are strongly against rape. It seems like those ideas are going to. They're not going to coexist because we

[18:00] Michael: know what rape is, and that's bad. That's not okay.

[18:05] Matt: Right.

[18:06] Michael: But then, you know, it's like how it's. It sometimes gets then misconstrued with like, oh, I was a willing participant. And then after the fact, I wasn't, it's like, oh, okay. And again, I'm not speaking this case specifically, but this has been brought up in, you know, different. Different things over the. Over the last couple of years. Specifically is like. It's like I was a willing participant then, but then I realized afterwards I wasn't or I would. I didn't want to be. It's like, how do you parse that?

[18:36] Matt: That's just.

[18:37] Michael: That's just almost impossible to parse. I don't know if there's something we want to get into or not, but it's just. No, it's just kind of a conundrum of.

[18:44] Matt: I only brought it up to make the point about Art and propaganda, not so much to unpack the case because I'm not following it that closely and I'm not really interested in taking a position on it.

[18:56] Michael: Yeah. I mean, I just think it's like. I wish I was just. We just wouldn't do that. Like, is there. I don't think there's anything that good that comes from that on either side. Like, even if. If everybody was a willing participant, I still think, man, guys don't.

[19:11] Matt: It's not good.

[19:12] Michael: Yeah, it's not good. And then it's like, if. If there wasn't willing participants, because even one guy's like, saying that he wasn't a willing participant. I don't know. It's just like. It's really confusing. But.

[19:20] Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think that the whole thing. The whole thing makes me sad for everybody involved, you know, sort of in the same way that it makes me sad for the Bonnie Blue person. You know, I just don't think it's good for anyone's soul. And the fact that we. I don't know if we're celebrating it, but we're certainly allowing it and normalizing it.

[19:43] Michael: Normalizing is probably the right word.

[19:45] Matt: You know what I mean? Like, have you seen. I don't know how often this has happened. I know one person who had a first person experience with it, but in social science classes in universities, they have whole sections of their lectures or whatever where they are simulating sex acts, I guess, as a way to try to normalize sexuality, to normalize things like kink and like bondage and S M and all of these things. And I'm thinking, let's cross. What business does that have in a higher education institution? But I just bring it up because it's clear that we are trying to normalize those things. And you maybe shouldn't be surprised when you try to normalize that, that some drunk college kids want to engage in that willingly or not.

[20:46] Michael: Yeah. This is what sexuality is. And it's like, well, you know, again with kink. It's like there's a fine. There's a very, very fine line between, like, willing participant because you're. You are actually pushing some boundaries and on purpose.

[21:02] Matt: On purpose as a part of the.

[21:03] Michael: Yeah, and it's like in. How do you know if you're willing participant in that?

[21:07] Matt: Right.

[21:07] Michael: And it's like, anyway, so I don't want to get into all that.

[21:12] Matt: Yeah, let's change the subject.

[21:13] Michael: Yeah. But kind of maybe going back to like, the whole propaganda kind of thing is sort of like it's like. It's. It's sort of like everyone is. Is trying to be a political actor, and even our. Even our actors are being political actors. You know, it's like, I don't mind them having an opinion and even saying their opinion, you know, but, like. But you kind of. It's like at some point, they stop being artists, in a sense. And, like, is there a place where you can no longer experience an actor on screen because of their. Their. They're actually more of a political figure than they are a person on a screen? Yeah, you know, it's like. You know, I.

[22:05] Matt: So that's interesting. From my perspective, that really started during COVID I mean, there were some, like, actors, musicians who, you know, had political stances before COVID obviously, but it never seemed to me like that was really a part of what they were doing. It didn't seem to me like people spent a good deal of time at the awards ceremony, you know, accepting their award, talking about politics. Maybe some.

[22:36] Michael: Yeah, it was definitely. It's been happening for a little bit longer than that, but, yeah, even more so now.

[22:40] Matt: But if you take this. This idea that the proper position to take is the socially accepted one, and if somebody refuses to take that position and scrutinizes it instead, then they must be the bad guys. And morality is not based on any principle. It is based upon the side of a line that you stand on. And then Covid comes, and we are told that the very real result of being on the wrong side of this line is people will die. It isn't hypothetically life or death. It is actual life or death, that you must be on the right side

[23:22] Michael: of the policy, or if you don't on the right side of the social side, guys, that you are a racist or you are a white supremacist or whatever it might be.

[23:34] Matt: Well, and I think that that's. That was done because if people are going to die, if you're on the wrong side of this issue, then we must destroy you before you destroy other people. And it seemed to me that that's when a lot of actors and musicians became very outspoken politically, and it certainly did damage to my. What I call fandom. There's certain musicians and actors that I quite admired as artists, and now I don't really want to listen to them anymore.

[24:06] Michael: Well, I mean, just I've brought up before, but, like, my favorite artist in the 90s growing up was Eddie Vedder, right? And when I went to that concert, and, like, he just spent so much time on politics it's like I no longer enjoyed his art form.

[24:18] Matt: Right. Did you say you left early?

[24:21] Michael: We left early. I left early to the. The guy I've always like one of the artists. And I don't see a lot of bands besides Matt. And I just. I left because it's just like. Like he's no longer. He's like. It's like he became a propagandist for like, whatever. The thing is, even what you believe in what he's talking about, it's like. It's like now you're cheering for that and it's like, where does his art go? It's like, you know, I think that's something that it's not. And I hate this because it's not about stay in your own lane. But like, like, are. Are you a political musician? I think that's the thing. I feel like. And that's a different thing than.

[24:57] Matt: Right.

[24:58] Michael: Being a musician. Like, it's a. It's like you're. You're pushing an agenda. And maybe. I mean, it is like maybe like Rage against the Machine. Like, you know, fuck you. I won't do what you tell me. Maybe it's there too. But it was. But there was something different about it, was there was artistry in it versus, like straight up propaganda.

[25:18] Matt: Right.

[25:18] Michael: Like, I don't feel like he. There's sort of this. There's a rebellious part that he's. He's.

[25:24] Matt: Do you. I mean, a lot of artists in the 60s, 70s or whatever were like super against the Vietnam War. Do you think that there would have been a similar conversation to be had about that?

[25:38] Michael: God, now that you said, probably so I give peace a chance. Yeah, It ain't me.

[25:51] Matt: Yeah, sorry.

[25:52] Michael: Although I'm trying to go through them all and just kind of remember, like, what. What was said at the time. Well, I. I also kind of wonder. Oh, geez, I don't know how to do this because sometimes you get you. You start to like. It's easier to be critical of the. Of the age and the time you live in and think that it's different when it's maybe not for sure. And so I'm trying to check myself and make sure I'm not. Not making that same analogy or correlation, because I do. I kind of have a little bit of a picture of people kind of saying the same thing about those artists that I look back to and think of them not as propagandists, you know, but maybe it was a different spirit. It wasn't as in your face. It was like they're actually trying to say something even though they didn't know what. Maybe they weren't. But by saying it directly, you're actually. You're actually lessening what you're trying to say. It's like by me saying, hey, I'm pro Palestine, it's like you're actually stating a position rather than singing about, like, what the is going on. We're killing each other on both sides. What's. What is this? You know, is there a right, is there a wrong? Like dealing with the confusion and the tension between something, you know, I don't know.

[27:26] Matt: That reminds me of that. Before the last election, Trump was being interviewed by somebody and they were asking him to take a position. I think it was on Ukraine, Russia. And he just basically was like, I just want people to stop dying. And she's like, well, you have to make a more basically a moral. Take a moral position here. And he goes, I want people to stop dying. That's my position. He's talking about how many, you know, million and a half Russians dead and 800,000 Ukrainians or whatever. I don't know what the numbers were. And to me, that seemed so refreshing because, like, it's like, yeah, isn't that the better position that people should stop dying? But we don't. What's interesting to me is that we don't. Okay, so I'm rewinding to the question, what is it that our artists are showing us? And I look at the artists at ecl, and again, I wasn't there, but they seem like they don't have any energy. They don't know what a concert is. They don't look particularly healthy. They are taking really extreme positions on things that it's not possible for them to know with conviction because they're emerging things. Right. You know, I would say even. Even with the Israel, Gaza situation, you know, to take a extreme position, and I do believe this is an extreme position, to say there's a genocide going on, I think that's an extreme position. I don't think you can know. Yeah, at this point, I don't think. I don't think it's knowable. And if anything, when I try to know, it doesn't look that way to me. So we have extreme positions being taken by people who seems like lack energy for anything other than those extreme positions. And then I think, well, maybe, okay, what are they showing us? Maybe on purpose, maybe not. I don't think artists are necessarily showing the culture something on purpose. They don't often know what they're showing

[29:31] Michael: the culture by even acting it out. They're not even. They. They might not even be acting out the thing. They think they're acting.

[29:37] Matt: Right? Yeah.

[29:37] Michael: That's interesting.

[29:38] Matt: But then I look around. So the other thing I noticed of the ACL clips is every single person has their iPhone up recording what's going on. So you.

[29:46] Michael: You.

[29:46] Matt: You look through a sea of screens at something happening on the stage, and the whole thing seems dissociative. And I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe that's because our reality is dissociative. We're all on our screens all the time. Even when we're together, we act like reality is in that screen. And what's in that screen? Everything. You know, there was a time when if Bonnie Blue pulled that stunt, no one would have known. And, like, unless you, like, you know, read smut magazines or, like, went into sex stores or something, you wouldn't, because New York Times isn't going to publish that. The only reason we know about that is because we have these phones.

[30:31] Michael: Interesting. Yeah.

[30:33] Matt: Similar with a lot of things. Probably even similar with the Cornell 7 case. You wouldn't know about that without these phones. And so we're living in a world in which we're sort of simultaneously trying to normalize everything, and the everything is too much. It's too much to be normalized, which means we need to have some discernment about what we give our attention to, about how we choose our positions and make our judgments. We have to be discerning. We have an ever increasing need for discernment and wisdom. And yet, at the same time, we are being told, you must not use discernment and wisdom. You must be on the right side of the issue. And how do you know what's the right side of the issue? We'll tell you what's right side of the issue.

[31:23] Michael: Yeah.

[31:23] Matt: Well, how can I be sure? Well, if you want to be sure, that means you're a bad person, because it's so obvious that if you can't see it, I can't help you.

[31:31] Michael: Yeah. So

[31:35] Matt: I don't know what we do with all of that.

[31:39] Michael: Well, just even your kind of comment, because it's like, it's. I mean, you said that you weren't there, but I think there's enough experiences of some things recently where, you know, what is an artist performing in front of? You know, it's like before, like, I went to an ACL concert in 2016 or 17, I got backstage patches, passes from an artist and got to do Some really cool stuff. But it was like, like I was watching the crowd. We still had phones at this time. Yeah, but like super engaged. Like the. Were the Adam brothers, the Allman Brothers or Abbott brothers. Yeah, it's like, it's like they were so like engaged with the audience and stuff like that, you know, and you do have your phones up a little bit and stuff like that. And it's like, what, what is performing turning into? It's like you're performing now for almost like AI. It's like people are turning into these sort of like automatons that are now communicating what they're experiencing rather than experiment experiencing what they're experiencing.

[32:44] Matt: Right.

[32:44] Michael: And again, I think I'm guilty of this too. And, and you know, as far as, like, I'm reading and thinking about things that have nothing to do with my immediate life. And so I'm living in this sort of reality that is not actually tied to my everyday relationships, you know, like my wife, my kids, my friends, you know, with you, you know, that, that maybe if they're informative to our relationship, but sometimes it just like it takes us into another reality that is disassociated from the world that's real around us. You know, it's like your neighbor, it's like, who cares if your neighbor supported Trump? They're your neighbor. It's like, do you have to know everything that they believe to like, take their trash out for them or, you know, to babysit their house or whatever it is? It's like, no, I can't let a Trump supporter babysit my house. It's like, why? Yeah, like, well, Trump supporters are like this. Or Biden supporters are like this. It's like, that's a simple world to live in if, like, you know, you're either good or bad, you know, based on the person that you voted for.

[34:02] Matt: I'm really fascinated by this question. What. What are they performing to a sea of iPhones. What are those iPhones doing? Rebroadcasting. To who? To the world, I guess. But it just makes me think, so in that scenario, the realest thing is the traffic, the online traffic. That's the realest thing happening at that event. And I think pre2016, 2017, you didn't record everything because there was built in limits. It's like I only had a certain amount of space on my iPhone and what am I going to do with this video? Anyway, I think this is right when Instagram started allowing video and TikTok didn't exist and the social media Landscape's way different now and the technology is way different. It's like, when's the last time you thought about how much space is on your iPhone?

[35:02] Michael: Totally, yeah.

[35:03] Matt: You don't, because mostly your shit doesn't live on your iPhone anymore. It lives in the cloud. And that's great because I don't have to think about the limits. But if I don't think about the limits, well, now everybody at that concert has the opportunity to just stand there and broadcast the whole thing. And again, broadcast to who? And there's this. There's this effect that I'm going to struggle a bit to describe, but it's like if you go to your Instagram reels and you just swipe through, what are you going to see? I don't mean content wise, but I just mean, are you going to see stuff from people you follow? Maybe, but it's going to be a small percentage. The rest of the stuff you're going to see is stuff that the Instagram algorithm thinks will result in you staying on the platform longer. It has nothing to do with the intent of the content creator, has nothing to do with your well being. It has only to do with the longevity of your experience, because that monetizes. So if you want to be successful as a content creator, your God is that same God. It is the God that the of the algorithm who is after one thing. And that's simply engagement, likes, comments, reshares, spending longer on the platform. Okay, we're all just traffic then. That's all I am when I look at Instagram, just traffic. I am not a pupil to be educated. I am not a wounded person to be healed. I am not a lost person looking to be found. I actually have no humanity at all. I am simply a cog in the traffic machine. And to the extent that traffic can be increased by generating content with AI, of course we're going to do that. And I look at that, I think about that scene of this performer on stage at ACL performing to a sea of iPhones who are broadcasting this out to capture traffic. Not people, not hearts, not minds. Actually, you shouldn't really have either of those. Your opinions will be assigned to you. You are simply traffic in the digital machine. Which is, how is this all that different than the Matrix? It's like, no, you're a battery. And you get to stare at the pretty shiny things so that you keep being a battery. It's like, nope, you're traffic. And you can keep staring at the pretty shiny things so long as you keep staring don't stop, because some of us are getting very rich off of that. And I think increasingly I was wondering, I was like, has popular music changed because everything's electronic and these singers sort of emo, sort of whatever. But man, concerts and festivals used to be full of rock and roll bands and electric guitars and drum sets. And I'm like, did music change? Did what's popular change? Or are we now determining what is popular by the traffic machine rather than the way people respond to the art? Why were the headliners chosen? Probably because of their Instagram followers and their Spotify numbers and their TikTok followers and all of that.

[39:10] Michael: Yeah, I guess there's a certain element that, that's kind of always they've been chosen, but the Instagram and all those things have kind of taken the, you know, it's like, like how much have you toured and what are your, what are your audiences like and what's your, what's your reach and stuff like that. Maybe it was a little bit harder to determine, but now it's a little bit easier to determine. And I'm trying to like, because I kind of want us to come back a little bit because, because I think there's like, like again like a nuclear energy and nuclear bomb. You know, it's like there's both, like it's equally powerful on both sides and that, you know, you know, there are some artists out there that are, that are saying things that are reaching into the void and trying to, they're staring into the void and bringing something back. And it's like, I don't know who they are right now, but I'm also not that cool. So I don't know what, what that is, but you know, and I think of, there's so many people I've come across on shorts and stuff like that that's like, oh, that's interesting.

[40:14] Matt: Yeah.

[40:15] Michael: And then I follow, I, I, I go down that rabbit trail. Like there's a, there's one guy recently that was showed up in one of my YouTube shorts and I was just kind of flipping through and something he said was just like, oh, that's fascinating. So I went and started following him and then I listen like grabbed a few of his episodes that are like long form format and it was like very informative, you know. So it's like there is something that's very powerful in one direction, but I think the part that, that maybe we're getting on specifically you're, you're hitting is that as in Hollywood, you can't be a Conservative, that you could only have a certain worldview to be accepted within that realm.

[40:55] Matt: Right.

[40:56] Michael: And so there's that sort of zeitgeist that's like, hey, you can only be pro Palestine. You cannot be pro Israel. Well, because pro Israel means you're a Zionist and that you are for genocide. And that is the mainstream narrative of what's going on. It's like. It's like if someone were to get up and say something, even like, Ed Sheeran. I forget what. How you say his name.

[41:18] Matt: Ed Sheeran.

[41:19] Michael: Eric Sheeran. You know, it's like he didn't even take a stance on it. He's just basically saying, hey, I don't want that to be a part of our concert, the political stuff. And he got so much backlash. No, you have to be.

[41:32] Matt: Well, and what's interesting is, I don't know if this is true anymore or if it will be true anymore, but Ed Sheeran, by the numbers, is the most popular musician in the world. So the most popular musician in the world is getting backlash for taking a rather reasonable position.

[41:48] Michael: Yeah. Or balanced. At least a balanced one.

[41:50] Matt: Yeah. Well, yeah. I want to recover something you said, or maybe correct what I said. It isn't that I think that social media is devoid of value. I mean, I learn a lot. I discover a lot of really valuable and meaningful things. But I think the thing that we're. That we're missing, especially because of the incentives of the algorithm, is that discernment thing. You know, it's like, how many times do I go scroll Instagram reels or how much time do I spend doing that? Not because I'm finding something of value or I'm even interested in something of value, but really, I just kind of want to shut off my brain. I want to distract myself. I want the dopamine hit. Plug me into the traffic machine. Let me be the willing participant. You know, I consent. You may have my soul. Yeah, and. Well, that's some serious lack of discernment. You know, if. If the digital online space is effectively becoming infinite. How do you navigate infinite space? I think you have to be careful what you give yourself to.

[43:06] Michael: Oh, yeah. It's like a finite amount of capacity with an infinite space. It's like you can just get lost in the well, and.

[43:14] Matt: Yeah, it's back to the Bonnie Blue thing. It's like, wait, she's gonna do what? Like, who isn't gonna, at least to some degree, investigate this? What good did investigating that do for anyone? I would probably argue none totally. You know, I don't think that improved anyone's life. Yeah, but we're living in an infinite online space to where you kind of have to go, she's gonna. Yeah, I don't want to look into that. I need to put my time and effort into something else. I need to protect myself because I don't know where that rabbit hole goes. And I went somewhat down that road, and I was like, oh, I don't want to be here.

[44:01] Michael: Can I unlearn this?

[44:02] Matt: But I chose. I mean, the sign at the beginning of the road said, absolute depravity here. And I was like, well, I got to figure out what that's about.

[44:11] Michael: Why is it depraved?

[44:12] Matt: Yeah, totally. Is it even possible? I got to do the math on this. It's like, is it even possible?

[44:17] Michael: That's hilarious. I did the same thing too.

[44:20] Matt: That would mean. And then all of a sudden, I'm sitting here thinking about some person I have never and will not meet having intercourse with a bunch of other people I have never and will not meet. And I'm like, what is this? Why does this have my attention?

[44:40] Michael: Even talking about this right now is, like, depressing.

[44:43] Matt: I know, I know. I'm just. We need discernment in this world, and I don't know where we're going to get it.

[44:53] Michael: Well, I think that's the part. I think that's what the world is crying out for right now. But it doesn't know that it's crying out for that. You know, like, that's where the artists need to be is in that space. And, you know, I think that's. There's something in that. It's like, okay, why is that. Why is that depraved? Why is even the idea of that being depraved is unwanted. Like, judgment, you know, it's like, oh, don't say that. That's freedom. It's like, well, that doesn't seem like freedom to me.

[45:28] Matt: Yeah,

[45:30] Michael: it seems like just sort of like a depravity that is not healthy or good for anybody and should not be, like, socially acceptable. That's really hard to. What seemed like to me, it's easy to make the case, but it's like our culture doesn't say that that's the case. It's like, where everything is permissible.

[45:59] Matt: Well, I think that's the fucked up position that you end in. End up in. You know, like Ivan in the Brothers Karamazov says, if there is no God, then man should be permitted anything. And so once we've killed God, we say, great. We should be permitted anything. Everything should be permissible. But you can kill God, but you can't kill the way God made you. Everything is not permissible. You will. You know, it's like, clearly, everything's not permissible. It's what the woman was saying with the castrate, the Cornell 7. This is not permissible. And yet we try to have it both ways.

[46:47] Michael: Well, even you start to think about, like, the realities that you try to live in. And it's like, when you try to live in that reality of everything is permissible, it's like, what happens to relationships, you know, Like. Like, is it okay if your wife does that? Is that true or false? You know, it's like. It's like, oh, no, that's not that. What Bonnie Blue did. It's not okay for my wife to do. Why is that? Or if it is okay, it's like, well, why is that? You know, it's like we kind of have a disassociated. Any sort of, like, relationship with this sort of disassociated. Like, we're almost kind of, like, becoming unembodied and into. Like. We don't really understand, like. Like, what it has to do with. With reality. And then I think we also start to, like, even rebel against the consequences of. Of rebelling against reality. You know, there's just parts, like, where if you're in a relationship with somebody and your. Your husband or your wife goes sleeping around, it's like, oh, no, I should be okay with this. It's like, really, should you be okay with that? And the more you're okay with it, like, how does that affect you? Does your. Is your. How is your. What is your reality turning into? And I would say that it starts to kind of, like, kind of tear you apart inside. It's like, if you. If you go down this road, that if you have a lot of sex with people, it's like. It's like, well, and it just becomes somewhat meaningless. It's like, well, why is it becoming me? Oh, because it's meaningless to begin with. It's like, really? Like, was it meaningless to begin with? Well, what were you looking for when you first started down this road? You know? And obviously there was something you were interested in. It wasn't just physical pleasure. And I think that's the part that we've just kind of disassociated from, like, the meaning, because we said that there is no meaning. And so everything is permissible. And it's like, I shouldn't feel this way. So therefore, if I do feel that way, it's wrong. And I just need to get further away from that feeling because I don't want to feel that way.

[49:16] Matt: Or it's somebody else who's making me feel shame.

[49:19] Michael: Totally. Yeah. It's because you don't agree.

[49:21] Matt: You're shaming me.

[49:22] Michael: Yeah. You're shaming me. And it's not my fault I feel this way. It's your fault because you have put this sort of idea of morality on me.

[49:33] Matt: Well, it's back to slutcon. It's like, I can be a slut and celebrate that. Don't shame me. And then when I go out and act like a slut and it makes me feel bad, that's not my fault.

[49:47] Michael: Yeah.

[49:48] Matt: Someone else did that to me.

[49:49] Michael: Or somebody won't treat you with respect or want to have a relationship with you. It's like, no, because you're basically saying, like, I'm a slut. I'm not somebody you have a relationship with.

[50:01] Matt: I'm something you use.

[50:03] Michael: Something you use. Yeah. And it goes for men, too. It's sort of like. It's like, no, I don't. I'm not. I'm not someone who has a relationship. I'm. I'm one who uses. You know, and it's interesting.

[50:17] Matt: I would know.

[50:17] Michael: I don't know if you can say it that way. Like, I wanted to say, like, men are the users and women are the used. And I think both those are bad. Not one is better than the other or better or whatever. Or is more bad than the other. But I don't think that's necessarily the case because I think. But I think it's rare that men are the used and. Are the. Yeah. Used and women are the users. Maybe differently. Maybe emotional or something like that. But I was thinking sexually, specifically,

[50:50] Matt: I think women use men all the time with sex. It's in a different way.

[50:57] Michael: Yeah.

[50:57] Matt: But it's not because the goals are

[50:59] Michael: different, skills are different.

[51:00] Matt: The goals are different. Yeah, but I think there is something to what you were saying.

[51:03] Michael: We're in deep waters.

[51:04] Matt: Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, it's like.

[51:06] Michael: I mean, not like deep, deep water.

[51:08] Matt: The man is the one who enters. The woman is the one who is entered, receives. Yeah, there is something to that that you see playing out in sexed behavior.

[51:27] Michael: This is really messy because I. I'm. But I think it's. I think it's a lot more straightforward. I think we're trying to deal too much with the. With the gray because It's. It's kind of been laid out for us, you know, just in an evolutionary point of view, it's like, hey, you know, it is better, and we have learned this through time, that a man and a woman in monogamy couple together and have kids and it moves into the future.

[51:57] Matt: Let me ask you something. What do you mean when you say from an evolutionary perspective?

[52:03] Michael: I'm just saying, like, do you have a. Like, I have. You have a better chance of your species, your. Your seed going into the future. If you have a monogamous relationship, you

[52:13] Matt: have a better chance of your lineage continuing.

[52:16] Michael: Continuing. Yeah.

[52:17] Matt: Yeah. Okay.

[52:18] Michael: Because it's like, you know, because the woman is the only one who knows that it's their baby. The man does not know what used

[52:25] Matt: to be that way.

[52:27] Michael: Oh, yeah. I guess with DNA tests, it's changed a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. So there was that part. Well, so even that is interesting, too. But it's like. But this is something that is biological. And so we have science that's kind of brought in some other elements. It's like, whether it's contraceptives or DNA tests and that kind of stuff, which doesn't actually make it more clear, actually muddies the water even more. More, you know, so it's like there's. That. There's this. Up until, let's just say, up the 50s, where contraceptives were not as well used and DNA tests and all stuff were not. It's like. It's like the. In order for the man to know that it was his child, it's like. It's like there was something about marriage and you having sex with just one person so that you knew that it was your kid. And if you know it's your kid, you're going to have more. The man is going to have more investment in that relationship and in the

[53:18] Matt: upbringing of that kid, the man's knowledge of paternity was dependent solely on his belief in the loyalty of his spouse.

[53:27] Michael: Yes. And so there's that. I don't know if that's. If I've done enough to kind of establish that very well here, because I kind of want to move into the next stage of that, which is sort of. So that was kind of like where a lot of our traditions were around is sort of like in order for a male to be invested, then they also have to know that the woman was, you know, not promiscuous. You know, and there's a lot of more allowances for men to be promiscuous. Which is, I don't think was necessarily great. You know, not necessarily it wasn't great, but it's like, but the woman is the one who knows it's her child. And so like if she won, if, if she wanted that somebody in her life to help her. I feel like the way I'm saying this is not really come out the way I want to say it.

[54:16] Matt: I think you're making sense.

[54:17] Michael: Am I? Okay, yeah.

[54:18] Matt: I just don't know what the point you're driving toward is yet.

[54:20] Michael: Well, the point I'm driving towards is like there's, there are certain things that have been established from many, many thousands of years, you know, that now that we have like contraceptives and DNA tests and like even modern conveniences to even give us the assumption or idea that we can like you can do this on your own or it doesn't matter how many partners you have that, because we've solved that now A guy can know that it's their kid. But like we, there's also a psychological part of this too, like where, you know, it's like he knows that she is his, you know, and she knows that he is hers. And, and now it's sort of like, oh, I don't need this because now I have, I can have daycare, I can have, you know, I mean, even government help in raising my kids, you know, TV dinners, you know, I don't know, just all the different things that make it like somewhat easier. But like, but there's something about needing like a man and a woman, a husband and a wife together to raise a child because they actually bring different elements to the development of a kid into the, in raising them into the future. And there's, there's a lot of studies on this, but as far as like kids who grow up in, with their mother and their father in their household and how more successful they are when that happens, you know, so.

[55:49] Matt: Which is a little bit inconvenient. For the crowd who would like for everything to be permiss, permissible, who would like to say, well, we don't need monogamy anymore because we have contraceptives and DNA tests. And I guess if you're purely self centered and hedonistic, maybe that is compelling, you know, but not only do kids who are raised in a household with both their biological parents have better outcomes in almost every observable way. The number one predictor of child abuse is the existence of a non biological adult in the house. Which is shocking. And it's not like a little Bit more predictive. My understanding is it's something like a thousand times more predictive than things like alcoholism, drug use, previous abuse, you know, in the adults lives, things like that. The number one predictor. I blew my mind when I first learned that. And then I was thinking, oh yeah, what was that, what was that story Cinderella about an abusive stepmother and stepsisters? We knew about that far before we knew anything about contraceptives and DNA tests. We knew it, it was, it was obvious in our experience.

[57:24] Michael: I think we want to say that we're beyond that. You know, it's like we're, you know, it's the same thing with, you know, Nietzsche saying God is dead, you know, like, and then kind of like going, oh no, what do we do? And it's sort of like, oh yeah, so God is dead. All these norms that we have in place, it's like, no, we don't need those anymore. And it's like, whoa, hold on, like maybe this there for a reason.

[57:47] Matt: And who unhooked the earth from the sun?

[57:50] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's so hard because I sound like such like a traditionalist or something like that. But to me it's just like it makes so much sense. And I see the impact on our culture right now, especially in the west, as we unmoor ourselves from some of these traditions that are there for a reason. It's not the tradition for dishon stake. It's like, it's, it's pointing to something. It's like, hey, actually this is a really important relationship and it goes beyond just you and your mate, you know, your husband, your wife. It goes way beyond, you know, what you think is real. It's like there's something in this that, that is more real than you could ever imagine as far as, like, you know, what it means to bring life into the world. And also just the maturity, the maturation of that whole process for the human psyche too. It's like, why do you look to the future? Well, I want to prepare a better future for my kids. It's like, what happens whenever that becomes, that becomes less of the goal? It's like people are not having kids or even saying like, no, the future looks horrible. I don't want to bring kids into this world. Well, I think part of that is by not bringing kids into the world, you have less and less sort of skin in the game for it to get better. Sort of like, I'm going to get what I get now because it's, it's, it doesn't look promising, you know, or Like, I don't care about. Like, I say that I care about the future, but everything that I'm doing, if I really cared about, I'd want to know, does it actually. How does this impact the future? You know, it's like, you know, we want to go all solar by 2030. It's like, okay, was that even realistic? Okay, let's come up with a realistic goal, at least for like. For, like, what that means. It's like. And I might not see that goal realized, you know, for it to actually work and be impactful, you know, maybe I'm working for something that's going to happen in 2060, which is, I might be dead by then, but for it to actually work, it needs that amount of time in order for us to actually make that transition.

[60:28] Matt: Well, it feels like we're in a hard place because in order to benefit the future, you have to have some idea of what is good, what would be good, what could the world look like that would be good or better than it is now? In a landscape in which you aren't allowed to scrutinize ideas where what is good is dictated to you and demanded of you rather than, what's the alternative? Lovingly discovered and nurtured? Something like that. And in a land or a world where we have access to so many options and we are demanded that everything is permissible except for what is obviously not permissible. Neither of those things is moored to any kind of principle. It's just simply by fiat, determined. Well, no one's really qualified to say what would be good. Are they in that landscape, except arbitrary? Except for the politicians who happen to be in vogue at the moment, you know, and what are their aspirations? Power, control, wealth.

[62:13] Michael: That's funny, because, like, as we're laying out all these different arguments, I'm just like, the. The thing that goes through my head is, like, all the rebuttals to what we're talking about, and my question would be, is, like, okay, what do you propose? Like, this doesn't seem like a game that's reiterative. Like, I can't play this game out over and over again. Like, it just seems like. Like there's a breakdown in reality. If we continue with some of these ideas that we think are.

[62:51] Matt: Well, it's like, read the book of Revelations. Isn't that where we're headed? A breakdown of reality?

[63:03] Michael: Yeah. I don't know what to take on. I have a lot of confusing ideas on Revelations, but I think it. It does. It does sort of like the one Thing I do see that it does. It's like we give over our. Our free will and our autonomy to something that is unreal. And we. We're not. We're not concerned with what is real.

[63:35] Matt: Right. I guess it's not surprising that we would have trouble finding the truth when we have declared that there is no truth.

[63:42] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[63:42] Matt: It's like you say, there's no truth. Tell me the truth. Yeah, of course we're confused. We're confused and we're suffering over it.

[63:58] Michael: Or there is no truth, but what I'm saying is true.

[64:01] Matt: Right.

[64:02] Michael: It's like, well, wait, wait a minute.

[64:03] Matt: What makes you. What makes what you're saying true if there is no truth?

[64:08] Michael: Yeah.

[64:09] Matt: Well, it's kind of like we were talking about last week. Power. Power makes it true.

[64:14] Michael: Why is this. This value of life greater than this value of life which you're determining by. Based on what you know? Yeah. It's just so confusing. I can almost. For me, it's more easier. More easier. It's easier to see that and the chaos that that brings. And it makes me see more clearly why you have to subject yourself to reality and ask. And ask the hard questions. And that means you're going to be wrong and they are going to be challenged. If you don't want to be challenged and you do not want to know what's real.

[64:59] Matt: Right.

[65:00] Michael: And I think that's part of it is like, we don't want to be challenged. We want to think what we think and believe that it's true. And the more that we don't accept that our realities will be challenged, our idea of truth will be challenged. It's like, I think that we just. We end up kind of like tearing the fabric of reality and we experience something that we don't know, that it's actually death until many, many years down the road. I feel like I use a lot of metaphors or symbols, but.

[65:43] Matt: Well, it just makes me think. It's so bizarre to me that we wouldn't want to know. We would object to being. How did you put it? We would object to having our beliefs questioned, challenged and challenged when isn't it obvious that we would be better off if we were conformed to what is true, what is reality? But then I think, I don't like asking myself a question like, hey, Matt, how could you improve your life? Because the answer is going to cause me to have to start doing some things I don't want to do and stop doing some things I don't want to stop doing. And so I just go, maybe if we just don't ask the question, then we can just be blissfully ignorant and retain our right to complain that things aren't as good as we would like them to be. And I think, what is that? Why don't I want my life to be as good as it could possibly be? Because I look inside myself and I look inside my own behaviors and I do not see a desire for that. I see a sort of virtue signaling, kind of like, of course I want good things, of course I want the best life. I don't fucking behave that way. And I won't even seriously ask myself the question of how to accomplish that because I would rather remain, like I said, ignorant and retain my right to complain. And so I think, oh, shit, there's something wrong with me. There is something very wrong with my heart. There's something very wrong with my own desires. I don't desire good things even by my own definition. That's fucked up, dude. I am up.

[67:46] Michael: Well, we just, we just know, like, to build anything takes sacrifice and hard work, you know, because it's like to build a house, it's like, it's not that you just build a house. It's like you have to plan, you have to buy the land, you have to put in the foundation, plumbing, electrical. It's like there's all these things that go into it. It's not subjective. It's not arbitrary. You know, it's like to build a business, to build a life, to. To do anything. And it's like you're going to be challenged because you know what, you don't know what you'. Doing. You only learn as you. As you start moving in that direction of building something and, you know, and you start to learn. It's like, no, it's not subjective. There's actually an objective reality. It's like you get into a relationship. No, it's not whatever you believe, it's like, now you're contending with somebody, right? And you might at first have a lot of ideas and thoughts that are similar, but at some point it's like you're going to have to contend with that other person. I think we should do this. Well, I think we should do that. It's like, okay, well, if we can't come to a conclusion, then are we just going to break up? You know, it's like, it's like you have to be able to work through. Work through things and, and kind of almost appeal to something outside of yourselves. Like, okay, hey, this is what we think we should do. Okay, what. What should we do? And you start looking outside of yourselves and at something else. It's like, because, like, you. You know, it's like, if not, you just have to, like, either one person has to beat the other up with logic or, you know, emotion or physical, you know.

[69:28] Matt: Yeah.

[69:29] Michael: In order to move forward into the. In the world, you know, and like. And anyway, any of those three options is kind of abuse. You know, it's like you both have to start appealing to something outside of yourselves. Because if not, all it is is just wordplay and convincing. And. And, you know, what are you convincing the other person of? What if they don't acquiesce to that? You know, it's like,

[70:00] Matt: I don't know.

[70:00] Michael: It just seems so. I don't know. Chasing after the wind. If you don't have something that you're. You're moving towards or something that is objective that you're. That you're moving towards, or there's actually a. A reality to the relationship that you have, and there's a purpose to the relationship you have. There's a purpose for why you're here and what you're moving towards. And if you don't start sort of acknowledging that, then you sort of just kind of die inside.

[70:53] Matt: I don't know where to take it from here.

[70:54] Michael: I don't know either.

[70:57] Matt: I just think, you know, maybe to, like, just kind of tie up a couple of things that we've been talking around. You know, a couple weeks ago we talked about you have to submit to something, which is the case that you were just recapitulating there. And. We have to conform ourself or we should conform ourself to reality, because the. The alternative to that is death and destruction. And humility is the required stance. And in my case, what I was just saying is, like, I. I'm not even really capable of wanting the right things. So I'm kind of screwed. And it reminds me, you know, it calls me back to that T.S. eliot poem from the Four Quartets that we read a couple of episodes back where he says, to wait without hope, for hope would be to hope in the wrong thing.

[72:11] Michael: To wait without love for love would be for the wrong thing.

[72:14] Matt: Right. It's like he's describing the starting point of humility. And I think whatever the good news is, whatever the gospel is, to me, it is the only answer to that problem. If I don't know what to want, I don't even know how to trust myself to want the right thing. There is a problem in me that I cannot solve. And nothing else answers that except for Christ. Except for Jesus. Jesus says, I have the answer. I am the way. You are correct, child.

[73:08] Michael: It's like, even at the. At the end of that part it says, like, and yet there is faith. And I think that's the part is like, that's the only way that you can wait without hope and wait without love is because, like, you trust that something, that there is another and that. That it will be revealed to you. Yeah, but you're also confessing that, man. I don't know what to hope for, what to love.

[73:33] Matt: Yeah, I mean, that's a pickle. Like, I've said this before, but in times of my own practice of gratitude, if I just sort of say, okay, Matt, sit down and list the things you're grateful for, and I make the list, and then I immediately observe that had things gone my way, I wouldn't have gotten any of those things. If things had gone according to my design, I wouldn't have had any of the things that I'm grateful for. So it's like I can't trust myself. Who do I trust? Who am I grateful to? It's not myself. Not grateful to myself because I didn't. I didn't give myself these blessings. They were given to me, despite me, despite myself. So there is someone to trust. There is something to trust, and it isn't me,

[74:34] Michael: which I love that because it's like what you're kind of pointing at is there's something experiential that you. That. That is there, that is to be experienced. And it's like. And you actually can't experience it until you give yourself to it, which is kind of wild. It's sort of like. And usually it comes. It comes at the end of your rope when you've tried all the things that you thought would fulfill you. You. And, and that's again, kind of what we've been talking about this whole time is like you're beating against reality. And at some point reality is going to call your name and say, hey, I'm here. And I think that's the part that, you know, we have to respond is like, okay, tell me who you are. And I think that's the part that I can tell. We submit to that which is, you know, like we're talking about is like kind of what kind of Jesus talks about and symbolizes and embodies. Is that sort of like, hey, I am the reality, I am the life. You know, I am the way you know, and it seems so. It can seem so cliche almost, because sometimes that those words seem so, oh, I've heard of a million times, you know, but there's something actually powerful in them, like in the experience of it. Something that you and I were kind of dilly dallying with before. This was just sort of like, you know, what's the difference between sort of the structures we build versus the experience? You know, And I think that's the part is sometimes we build these structures that are not load bearing and then we start to. Experience that, the fragility of that structure that we built. And I think that's the part that the more that we experience the fragility of the things that we build, we're going to start crying out for, okay, what is real? And I hate it because it's like, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I would just go ahead and submit to what is real. But it's like I build these structures and as I start to experience the fragility of them, you know, it does make me cry out for, okay, what is real?

[76:57] Matt: Yeah.

[76:57] Michael: And that's the part that I think that's why for you and I is like. Like we can't deny the reality of Christ. Because it's like as we cry out when our. As our structures become fragile, it's like that's really the only thing that has been real that shows up is that it's like, no, there is a God. He loves you and that he wants you to know him. And that that is real. And that's not something that you can logic your way into. It's. It's something that is just true. And you can only experience it by saying yes, you know, well, it goes

[77:36] Matt: back to that quote that. Or that little piece we read from Napoleon or allegedly from Napoleon where he's talking about time. The Great Destroyer is incapable of extinguishing that flame. Neither time nor space can, can extinguish the flame. And the flame being Jesus Christ. Ultimately, it's in some weird way. I don't want to use the word weird. It isn't weird. It's surprising. It seems like that is the reality that you can always run back to. And it is always real. Everything else has some false reality to it. Everything else is fragile.

[78:29] Michael: It comes back to our sort of top down, bottom up thing is like a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about throughout the episode is just bottom up. You know, we're building these things and, and then Jesus kind of comes in top down and says, hey, come to me. Let me put these in order, you know, but only it. Only. The order only comes if you focus on what is on the top. And then it comes down to you. And because you can't build up, it's like it has to be revealed to you from the top down. I don't see any other way, because the other way is just. It is meaningless. It is chasing after the wind. To try to build whatever system you're trying to build. Whether it's like, no, it's okay for me to sleep with a thousand men, it's okay for me to do. It's like, what system are you building? What world are you building? It's like you're just going to. Like, you're just going to build a world of confusion and frustration, because that's not what the purpose of your life is. It's like your purpose of. In your life is so much greater than.

[79:46] Matt: And there's already enough confusion and frustration in life. Maybe stop contributing to it totally as far as you can. As much as you can, which, you

[79:56] Michael: know, it's like, you and I've talked about this so much on. On the podcast and off podcast. It's just like. It's like there's so many things I. I try to build that I'm just like, Just fail. And I'm like, oh, man. But every time, it's like I learned something from it. It's like, oh, yeah, my eyes were on. Kind of directed in the wrong place. Yeah, I thought I could do this. Like, actually, no, you're in the wrong place, man.

[80:30] Matt: Well, I think I'm ready to.

[80:33] Michael: Yeah.

[80:34] Matt: Move to the porch cast section of our.

[80:38] Michael: Thanks, guys, for coming along. Yeah, I think this was, like, this is a. I'm interested to see where we come next. Next podcast. I feel like this kind of just opened up a whole. A lot of different avenues to kind of like, push on. Because, like, like, I think a lot of things we talked about tonight are some. Some of the things that really frustrate me as far as, like, like, how do we. How do we change our culture? Like, how do we. How do we move into the future? Because there's so many things about our culture and about our future that I think are destructive. And I would love to be able to see a better future than what I see. I think I'm also hopeful because I see other people that are also seeing the same things. It's like, no, we can't keep doing what we're doing.

[81:31] Matt: I think so, too.

[81:32] Michael: And they're looking for the artists and the philosophers to start saying, hey, go this way.

[81:37] Matt: I saw or I see here and there people who are predicting a Renaissance in Western culture. And I really hope that's the case. I really hope that's true. And I hope that that Renaissance is a pursuit of the cry for reality. We want to know what is true. We want to know what is. So cheers to that.

[82:08] Michael: Yes. To the Renaissance.

[82:09] Matt: To the Renaissance.

[82:11] Michael: Love you guys.

[82:11] Matt: Love you out there. Good night.

[82:13] Michael: Good night.