Washer Fluid and the Meaning of Life

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. Okay.

[0:22] Michael: All right. What are you all giddy? I don't know.

[0:26] Matt: I got a little, like, I got a little tickle in my stomach.

[0:29] Michael: A little giddy, huh? Yeah. Hey, to the short shores. To the shores of giddiness.

[0:35] Matt: I'm excited to be here, wherever here is.

[0:41] Michael: Well, I mean, here is 299.

[0:43] Matt: Yeah.

[0:44] Michael: Dude.

[0:45] Matt: Next week, 300.

[0:46] Michael: I know.

[0:46] Matt: Pretty crazy.

[0:47] Michael: It's pretty crazy.

[0:48] Matt: We'll save reflections on the craziness of that till next week.

[0:51] Michael: Yeah, totally. For sure.

[0:54] Matt: Well, I thought maybe a place to. To start might be something you said a little bit earlier today. You were just talking about just sort of feeling like you needed to change some things.

[1:05] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[1:06] Matt: Or like, try some different things because you go, you said, I can't just keep doing the same thing over and over. I thought maybe we could reflect on that a little bit because I resonated with that. It was something to me that was like, yeah, I've definitely got some patterns that I don't think are serving me, but I just keep doing them.

[1:25] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's hard because it's like, there's some things that are just super helpful. Like, I was actually right before I came here, I was, like, talking to a guy, and I was just like, yeah. It's like my morning routine is pretty standard, you know, and it probably won't change much, which is wake up, have coffee, get my business stuff together, do some reading, journaling, and then go work out. Like, for me, that's pretty standard. I don't know how much of that will change. You know, maybe there's a time that. Where I would sleep in and not do that, you know?

[1:55] Matt: Yeah.

[1:56] Michael: For a season. But that seems pretty. Seemed like a pretty healthy, like, thing to do for the most part. But, yeah, I think there's also this part where there's. There are certain things that served me in a different season that's not. That aren't serving me now. And I think it's sometimes hard to know, like, what those are.

[2:19] Matt: Yeah.

[2:20] Michael: And sometimes you have to, like, I think probably the last three months or four months, I think I've started to feel. Starting to feel more and more of the pressure of, like, hey, that's not working out for you. And I think it's hard because, you know, even when you're in the middle of running a business, like, there's still everyday business stuff you. You need to do. But part of my role is to be innovative and thinking ahead and. And it's not about, you know, did we get our pastries today? Like, that's not my job. And so. But my job changes, you know, every three to six months, and I have to be able to be nimble enough to. To shift into whatever gear that is, you know?

[3:06] Matt: Yeah. So you can't just give it to the AI? No, I can't give it to the AI.

[3:11] Michael: I've tried. Just won't do it.

[3:16] Matt: Medici GPT isn't working out.

[3:18] Michael: Ye was that easy. But, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think of the things that are. I think it's. I'm kind of still in the middle of it, so it's harder for me to recognize, like, what. What needs to change.

[3:33] Matt: Well, so I'm thinking of a couple things for myself, and they're pretty personal, so I might dance around them a little bit.

[3:39] Michael: But,

[3:44] Matt: You know, I find that there's, like, a succession of things that happen. Like, one thing is. It's like, first is observation. I observe that this thing keeps happening in my life every day or every week or whatever it is. It keeps happening. It's popping out to me and kind of taking note of it. And then there comes a time where it's like, okay, I think that needs to change. But then for me, often I think, well, but I don't know if I want it to change. I mean, change is kind of scary, right? What's it going to change into? That can get away from you pretty quick, but I think you have to kind of name it. You have to say, well, here's what I know. This is good about it, or this is bad about it, and say, okay, can I figure out what it is when things are poorly defined? I can't get that. There's a little mosquito flying around. When things are poorly defined, they can be quite squirrely. And I think you have to kind of put a name on something and say, okay, this needs to change. In order to find out how it's going to change, you have to define what it is so that you can say what needs to change. Which. We've talked a lot about this since COVID Just like at the societal level, where we didn't really want to be honest about the thing that needed to change, which is a problem because you'll never know if it changes if you don't define the baseline, whether that's COVID deaths or racism or cop shootings or whatever it is. But I see that at play in my own individual self. It's like I don't want to name it because I'm afraid of what it might be or what it might become. So it's like I want to leave it loosely defined and maybe kind of, let's just see. You know, I hate you talking right

[5:48] Michael: now because all these things go in my mind. I'm like, oh, fuck.

[5:51] Matt: You're like, oh, I've got some of those.

[5:53] Michael: Oh, there's another one. Oh, there's another one.

[5:58] Matt: Why is that? Why is that so hard? I mean, I think it's because. In our somewhat. In our naivety, we want to imagine that life is something like, well, this relationship will go the way it's going to go. It's going to turn into something good, or this habit is going to go the way that it goes and it's going to resolve on its own or whatever. And life isn't like that. We have agency. And for a relationship to become something you want it to be, you have to know what you want it to be and name it. And then you can figure out what part of the relationship is that and what part isn't that and stop doing the parts that aren't that and start doing more of what you know. And same with habits, bad and good habits. It's like when Jordan Peterson says that every ideal is a judge. It's like, once you name it, what needs to change? Well, it judges everything now.

[7:18] Michael: Yeah. It's like if you don't.

[7:19] Matt: We don't want to look at that.

[7:20] Michael: If you don't name it, you don't have to look at it. And it supposedly is not judging you, but it really is. Still, even just as you were saying that, I had all these things come into my head and I was like, shut up. Just push it away. A stupid one is window washer fluid in my truck. I've been meaning to do it for two months. And I'm a window washer fluid guy. I love my window washer fluid.

[7:45] Matt: You're normally on top of it.

[7:47] Michael: This morning I go out and I pour water on my windshield and turn the flippers on so it clears off all this stuff.

[7:55] Matt: You took a cup out there and poured water on rather than go buy windshield.

[8:00] Michael: Yeah. And I just like. And it just hit me like, wow, how much of this is a metaphor for other parts of my life where I'm not willing to just go fix the problem.

[8:08] Matt: Right.

[8:09] Michael: But I'm willing to do all this exercise in order to just not, you know, it's like it's. It's just so ridiculous. It sounds so ridiculous. I could, I could name multiple other things that are similar to that, you know, but then it's like, then it's a little.

[8:23] Matt: Yeah, now I'm having that. I've got one there. There's another one.

[8:26] Michael: But it's funny because it actually can. So there. I think there's a. There's a positive aspect to it and then there's a negative aspect to it too, is because you know what, that list that you just started never ends. It's like if you just are just tackling all those things, it just, it never stops. And so I think there's, there's something about. Sometimes those things are actually pointing to an underlying root cause to all those little things that you're not looking at. You know, whether it's like personal finances or business finances or, you know, how this shop's doing or that shop's doing. And it's like, it's like, well, if I just don't know, it's not a problem. It's like,

[9:11] Matt: here's the naivety.

[9:13] Michael: That's not true, Michael. You know? Yeah, yeah.

[9:17] Matt: If I don't look at it, it's not real. It's like if I close my eyes and put my fingers in my ears and say, la, la, la, la la, it goes away. We obviously do that. We do that all the time. Everyone knows what that means.

[9:34] Michael: I think the whole thing about the. It's like once you do open that door, it's like there really is this huge judge on the other side of it. And just the judge. I mean, like, I'm even like starting to, as we're talking about this, I guess feel the judgment on my relationship with my kids, you know, with you, it's like, it's like, it's like there's all these things. It's like, wow, Michael, you really are like falling short in so much. You know, it's like. And so much of what you're doing, you know, it's like. So I think a part of it, it's like there's, there's a, there's one. I think it's just like actually acting on it and maybe taking care of some of those things, which actually leads to sort of like a breakthrough. So it actually is sometimes good to like you. You move into those and take care of those little things.

[10:20] Matt: Right?

[10:21] Michael: And it actually fixes a bigger problem. But other times it's like you just end up doing all the little things and you just get. It's a never ending process of doing all these little things. That don't really get you anywhere.

[10:37] Matt: Well, it kind of raises a question which is something like, okay, if it's never ending, that I'm never going to be done. And I desperately want to be done. Having problems.

[10:55] Michael: Totally.

[10:56] Matt: I'm so tired of having problems. So where can I find my hope? It's like we're not going to get to the other side of this. You're not going to get to the other side of the problems that you need to solve.

[11:11] Michael: I saw this thing and I don't know how true it is. This is probably a good fact checked. It's like, is like the, the more you operate under stress is like you're, you actually cannot think long term. It's like your window of, of ability to think long term continues to shrink and to where it's like you can only really think about the next hour or the next day. And I think that's something that I've kind of experienced is sort of like I'm a very big three to six months and three to five year thinker and you know, it's like my window I think has shrun a lot to almost the weekend or the day. That's definitely, I've never been like that. So it's something about the cerebral cortex and it's like where it's like you can think more long term and abstract and stuff like that and then it kind of goes back into more survival mode.

[12:15] Matt: Well, okay, so I have a question which is are we meant to be long term thinkers? Because on the one hand,

[12:27] Michael: if you're

[12:28] Matt: building a bridge or an eddy, a dike, you need to build it to withstand the worst storm in 500 years, 1,000 years. You need to be kind of a long term thinker. Right. I think if you want to build a business, it's important to think long term. But then on the other hand, where is it? Who does it say? James says, do not say we'll go into this and that town and do this and such and such. Say if it be God's will, we will go into this town and do such and such. And I don't know that that's necessarily a call to short term thinking as opposed to long term, but it is a bit of humility to say I can't even really say what I'm going to do tomorrow. The position that he's telling me to take is to sort of create some plans and hold them loosely and say if God wills then it be this.

[13:44] Michael: Yeah, yeah, there's something with that. I mean, even Like, Paul, in all his different letters, like, had made all these different plans, and a lot of them didn't come to flourish. He's like, hey, I wish I want to be with you right now. Or my plan is to come to you. And he wasn't able to come to them. I forget which one. Maybe it was Thessalonians or something like that.

[14:08] Matt: But.

[14:10] Michael: So there is something about when you make plans, it also kind of helps you to see what your desires are. It's like. So it's like when you're. When you're focusing, looking out into the future, it's like, where am I going? And then you kind of start to work backward from there. It's sort of like, oh, is that what I really want? Is that, like, does that match up with my values? Does that match up with what, you know, I feel maybe God's speaking to me about? Or. Or, you know, like, oh, wow, I want to open up 100 medic. Okay, well, so that means. And then I'll have to open 10 a year for the next 10 years. Yeah, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to do that for the next 10 years?

[14:51] Matt: That's a lot.

[14:52] Michael: It's like, oh, if I do, well, I. I need to build a team. Okay, so that's probably where I need to start. And then, okay, well, probably need to get. How much investment would I need? And how much would it need to. Then, as it gets moving, can it actually feed itself? So, okay, I'll need this much money. And then like, okay, is there somebody. You start planning, and then maybe at the end of it, you're like, actually, that's not really what I want. But you might have discovered that, oh, wow. Actually, what I want to do is maybe invest in other people that are wanting to open up coffee shops.

[15:22] Matt: Well, you could see how there would be some almost sort of paralysis in that kind of plan making. Because if you say, okay, I got a great idea, I'm hoping 100 Medicis, and then you start to work on that like you just did, and all of a sudden, you're employing every resource, every amount of energy of your brain. You are orienting everything in your business toward this. And if that goal changes or you determine, well, it's not possible now, everything has to be reoriented back, redirected back to something else. You know, capital has to be redeployed in different ways. Your energy has to be redeployed. And so that can be scary enough that you just kind of go, well, I don't know whether to do something or nothing. You know, maybe I'll just. Just kind of let the ship go where it wants to go.

[16:18] Michael: Which is interesting because I think that's harder for me, like. Like, just to be able to, like, okay, hey, actually just going to sit still for a little while, which I've been doing kind of since COVID We're really probably about 20, 23 is just like. And work on what we have. I think that's been really difficult to do that rather than projecting into the future, Because it has. Like, I had another meeting this week with a guy who's kind of wanting to do this certain idea. And it's so funny because it's like, I've gained a lot of wisdom and a lot of it. I don't actually participate myself, but I can give it.

[17:04] Matt: You can dole it out.

[17:06] Michael: Anyways, one of my things was like, I was like, well, what does this have to do with your current business? And I was like, the answer is nothing. And I was like, well, why don't you put the energy and time and get the investment and put it into your existing business? How would that look? And how would you grow it? And. And I was like, dude, I'm like, talking to myself here. But the thing is, it's like, sometimes it's good and helpful to. To go on those old tangents because you learn something and you bring it back and sometimes can even invigorate what you're doing currently. You know, so it's really. To me, it's like, I don't really know. I don't really know what the. Like, there's. I don't feel like there's like a formula here where, like, think some business books would be like, you know, all you need to focus and give you, like, a prescription. But I think for most entrepreneurs, it's like, there's not really a prescription for it. It's like, sometimes you do have to stumble around for many months before you get to what is maybe obvious to others. But you actually need the whole process of stumbling in order to get the understanding of where you're heading. You know, I wonder if that's a deal too. Like, where, you know, people talk about, like, oh, I don't want to get married until I have all these things figured out. I don't want to have kids so I can afford it and do these certain things. And it's like, well, so you kind of plan for it. And it's like, well, okay, you're not going to get married till you're 35 and maybe having kids till you're 37. It's like, it's like. But there's other things that like you kind of just need to jump in.

[18:49] Matt: Yeah.

[18:50] Michael: And into the deep end and learn to swim.

[18:56] Matt: Well, I guess I'm just looking for something to orient toward. That is a. What's the word? Something to set against the problem of. Once I start working out problems, I realize that there's an infinite set of problems. So I'm never going to be done. There's no arrival. You don't get there. Yeah. Right. Which is tough. And I think I find in myself a weariness and a disappointment. You know, we've talked about this before, I believe, but sometimes I feel at this stage in my life like the little kid in the back of the car that's going, are we there yet? And life's going, you're there. I think we had an episode titled that, like you are there yet or something like that. And okay, so there is no there. This is it. That leaves me feeling a bit disoriented. And then the problem with long term thinking is you don't actually have enough control over reality to bring your long term thoughts to bear in the real world. And so you have to have something that hedges for that, that allows you to change the plan as you go, reorient as you go, but also allows you to not be too paralyzed to take the first step. What is it really? I think it's almost like a meaning of life kind of question. What is it that orients me and I guess where the word hope comes from? Where do I find hope to continue on with all of that?

[21:01] Michael: Yeah. That's interesting. Jesus doesn't promise wealth and prosperity. He told his disciples, hey, you're actually going to die for me.

[21:13] Matt: Yeah.

[21:14] Michael: It's like, oh, it's like, how do you. It's like, it's like you have to. Your why has to really mean something to you. It's like for the disciples, like they lived with Jesus and experienced his resurrection and it's like, it's like, I mean, that's impactful. You know, I just, I was listening to a guy talk about, you know, like how impactful was that for them? It was like, it's like the same idea and probably more significant than like we all know where we were when the towers fell. You know, like that moment is very clear and you can kind of go back to it almost like viscerally. And so I kind of think of like the disciples in that way, as far as, like, they could go back to that moment, those four days where he died and was resurrected. And then, you know, later at Pentecost, whenever he kind of leaves them. Is this sort of like, that gives you a lot of umph into your future? As far as, like, I kind of know where I'm going. I don't know what that consists of. But your why is pretty solid. Yeah.

[22:28] Matt: I mean, I guess they were a little bit closer to the logic of it. They witnessed it. Whereas I believe that Jesus, who was. Is God, died on that cross and rose again. And yet I don't live as if I believe that. You know what I mean?

[23:00] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[23:02] Matt: The consequence of that is that I am. Death has been conquered for me. I will not die. My body will. I will leave my body, but I will not die. Gospel says that's the good news. I am not waking up every morning as if it's Christmas, as if I've achieved immortality or it was achieved for me. It's like most of my mental energy is spent acting as if that's not the case.

[23:42] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[23:43] Matt: It's spent like, oh, I've got all of these problems that I've got to solve. I have all of these issues that I need to resolve. I'm mad at this person. I'm hurt by that person. I'm disappointed in this relationship. I'm disappointed in work, all of these things. And for some reason, it's somewhat rare that I go, wait a second, Matt, you have everlasting life. And even when I think that, I

[24:16] Michael: go,

[24:18] Matt: well, life kind of sucks. Why would I want it to be everlasting? You know what I mean? But I guess I'm trying to hold the logic of something that had I witnessed it happen, it would be much harder to, like, you would have that visceral memory of it, like we do with the Twin Towers, you know, and I use the word logic. Like, I mean, we all knew instantly that the world was changed on 9, 11. We didn't know how exactly. I mean, the very first conversations I was 19, very first conversations I had with my friends, we were like, what does this mean? And we were all like, we're going to war. War. We're going to get drafted. Should we even go to class today?

[25:05] Michael: Yeah.

[25:08] Matt: There's a logic that comes from that experience. And much of what we speculated about didn't kind of come true. But the world changing dramatically, that definitely happened. And that logic that you receive is not really the gift of sort of introspection or Rationality, it's the gift of the experience. And not having had the experience the disciples had, it's like, I feel like I have to hold the logic of that in my mind somewhat by force. And I guess that's true. I mean, the Bible says we are at war with ourselves to become new.

[25:58] Michael: Yeah. Super fascinating because it's like there's. There's a couple levels that kind of happen here where, like, I would say, like, once I started following Christ, like, my life changed, like, dramatically. And however, it also became normalized, too. Like, that change became normalized.

[26:19] Matt: Yeah.

[26:20] Michael: And. And I see that there's different points in my life from that. From that moment on that kind of had to, like, be renewed, you know, as far as, like, that, like. Like, I would even say for you and I, in the last, like, three to six months, like, and just in our relationship with a lot of this stuff is kind of like, whoa, wait a minute. What is this? Yeah, I mean, you can kind of hear in our podcast, too. So I kind of find that there's sort of a natural ebb and flow of, like, sort of like, you know, there's sort of like a revelation that moves you into a certain place, and then it's sort of like it builds a foundation, and at some point, you need a new revelation to kind of move you into the next.

[27:12] Matt: That's interesting. It's almost like there are times at which your awareness of the thing, the revelation, the change will be low. Like, we were talking about a couple of episodes back, when you spend a lot of time doing something, you actually dancing, you become less aware of the dancing, so awareness somehow fades. And remember reading somebody talking about this recently, something like, you don't always have awareness of God, but when you don't have awareness, you can have recognition. I thought, that's interesting. What's the difference between awareness and recognition? And I think it has something to do with faith and that which you can't see.

[28:04] Michael: Yeah.

[28:05] Matt: Like, I can recognize God's presence, which is something like saying to proclaim it, to say, I believe it, even if I lack awareness of it. And there are other times when I do feel aware of it, which is like a glass of fresh water.

[28:30] Michael: Yeah. And it's like anytime you go back and you think about those moments where that awareness happened, and it kind of like reinvigorates the present, too. Like, it's like, just as you were again. It's funny as they're talking, like, all these moments pop into my head. It's like, you know, different times Where I had this. Had an experience or revelation, and it's sort of like, whoa, no way.

[28:54] Matt: Yeah.

[28:54] Michael: It's like, okay. And it just sort of, like, fuels you into the next. At some point, like, you, like, you kind of go back and, like. I mean, I think that's why, especially in Judaism, it's like they're. They have these holidays to recount to remember, you know?

[29:09] Matt: Yeah.

[29:09] Michael: It's like the Exodus. We eat the. I forget the. The bitter taste, you know, because of the bitter herbs. Bitter herbs, you know, and the sweetness and the. There's all these things to read. And they say, oh, I love that around the chosen. It's like. It's like, you. You would be enough if all you did was deliver us from Egypt. That is enough.

[29:29] Matt: Yeah.

[29:30] Michael: And I love that. It's just sort of like, what is that?

[29:32] Matt: What's the name of that?

[29:33] Michael: I don't know what. That's the first time I had heard of that. But it was just really beautiful because, like, sometimes, like, you know, like, you know, for, like, you know, Jesus, like, you know, it would have been enough if just you dying on the cross, that would have been enough. You speaking to me at Medici one afternoon when I was by myself, that would have been enough. You know, it's like. I think there's. There's something in the remembrance of. It's the dayinu.

[30:07] Matt: It's a traditional upbeat Passover song sung during the Seder that expresses gratitude to God for the miracles. I kind of wish we did more of that in the Christian faith. So interesting that so many Jews who aren't even practicing Jews still participate in some of those traditions. And it's so common for Christians to not keep any traditions, really,

[30:46] Michael: which is interesting because one of my friends, he's Catholic and has always wanted me to be Catholic, but that's. I think that's something I really appreciate about the Catholic Church in general is like, they do have a lot of sort of institutional, like, remembrance, you know, it's like. I think that's one reason why, like, you know, just doing the Lord's Supper, you know, as far as, like, hey, take this bread in remembrance of me. You know, this is my. This is my flesh. And drink this. This is my blood. You know, it's like. It's like, what does that mean?

[31:19] Matt: You know, Gosh, I was thinking about that the other day, and. And it just. It popped out at me as so profound. You know, I think you and I have been really sort of astounded by the story of the Bible and the truth and rationality of it in some sense. Like if you go back a few episodes where we were talking about the logic of it, the Logos, that Jesus is the Logos and he's the proper order by which you can conform yourself to reality. But it's still such a mystery. And, you know, you think about the Last Supper, you think about communion, what is that? And I just thought, this is my body that I break for you. Eat it, eat it. It's like cannibalism. It's like, no, he's saying, consume me and I will become you. I will become my body will become your body. Consume me, digest me. And what is it that we do? Especially when we have a thought that's too big or a problem that's too big, what do we say? We say, give me some time to digest this. It's not clear to me. I need to digest it. And whenever you drink of this cup, remember me. And thing is, we're eating and drinking all of the time. And we do it ceremonially in church, at communion. But I think the way I read it is should sort of be constantly doing that to some degree. And it isn't that you understand, it's that you become. You digest and become that which is the ultimate order by which reality unfurls. And I just. It hit me, I was like, oh my God, it's brilliant. And it perfectly sums up all of the struggles and frustrations I have with trying to understand who God is and trying to understand what it is to live this life. And. And that I'm supposed to be joyful, but I don't feel joyful. I'm supposed to not be anxious, but I'm anxious all of the time. I've been a Christian for a long time. It's like, is my life supposed to be getting better or worse? I actually don't even know what the answer to that question is, you know, And God is. Jesus is saying, eat of my body, drink of my blood. Consume me, digest me. Let me become you. And it seems to soak up all of that, that frustration and lack of understanding, because I don't understand why, how it works that when I eat, I feel better or I have energy, or if I eat shit, I feel like shit. I know it experientially, you know, and I can say something about processed foods versus organic foods and things like this, that and the other, but it's like I don't have to understand those things in order to experience them. And I feel like when he says, let my body Become you. He's saying you don't need to understand it, you need to experience it.

[35:00] Michael: Yeah, I love it. Like, some verses come to mind, like, like, I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live in faith in the Son of God is sort of like, there's a sort of like, idea of like. And I think that's the part is like, we. It's hard for us. It's like in order to conform to reality, it's like we actually have to die. You have to transform into something else, you know.

[35:25] Matt: Right.

[35:25] Michael: Because like, like, you know, I think that's the part is like, we are actually dying and unless we transform into something else, we're just going to experience death. Like, there's no. Like, what kind of where we started the podcast. Like, there is a never ending to do list.

[35:43] Matt: Yeah.

[35:43] Michael: That to do list is like, is like it's Sisyphus. It's, you know, chasing after the wind, you know, and, and there's something about like, this was the rock. The rock. Yeah. Just push up the rock and fall it down, push it back up. And it's like, it's like. But Jesus is saying, like, no, it's like be transformed. It's like into something else. And I think that's the part that we experience, you know. You know, through Christ. Is that sort of that transformation into something else? You know, I think the. There's something about that that's interesting. Like, you know. Oh, you just said, you said something about the bread that was like, that kind of put off a light bulb on my. In my head, but I forgot what it was. Oh, yeah. I mean, this, this, this is kind of. This is gonna be a half thought, but this is the part that of, of kind of this conversation I've been really like, just kind of meditating on is like, you know, like Jesus sort of occupying this space of like, I know who I am and I also don't know who I am. And like, Jesus knew who he was and the part he didn't know who he was, like, he located that in the Father. And I think that is like such an example for us is like, it's like we do have a sense of who we are, but the problem is it's like, where do we locate the part we don't know about ourselves? And I think that's the part that there's only one place we can locate that and that is the Father. And Jesus is sort of like, that example of, like, there is a Father that loves you and you need to locate yourself in that. And sort of like Jesus is the example of locating that in the Father. You know, the whole idea of, like, you know, I'm in the Father and the Father is in me, and I am in you. And I think that's the part with, like, sort of like, as we sort of like, orient ourselves to reality, it's like. It's like we can't do that sufficiently without orienting ourselves in the Father, like in God. That's kind of a lot of, like, religious speak.

[38:00] Matt: But, yeah, we've touched on that in the past couple of episodes, too. I think the thing to add to it that just occurred for me while you were saying that is, what is it that you're doing? You're conforming yourself to reality and, oh, and you have to die. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. You have to die. I think you can kind of see the mechanics of that in the real world. I mean, I think all of us are anti reality by nature. Like, have you met a toddler? You know, it starts very young, but look at the public discourse. Everyone is anti reality. Did you listen to the recent Eric Weinstein interview? He was on Diary of a CEO.

[38:58] Michael: I've got it. It's in my next on my queue.

[39:00] Matt: Yeah, it's interesting. He said a couple of things that are applicable here. One is, he said, I think nearly or it is nearing 100% of us are insane.

[39:15] Michael: Oh, wow.

[39:16] Matt: And that we all take for granted stories that upon scrutiny, don't make any sense, and we demand that they make sense. He talks about. He's like, why have we not gotten to the bottom of Jeffrey Epstein? How many years has it been? He's like, we could get to the bottom of it in a couple of days if we wanted to, but apparently we don't want to. And he talks about UAPs and, you

[39:39] Michael: know, Covid, and it's all Covid.

[39:42] Matt: I don't remember all the ones he named, but that just really hit me. And I just thought, yeah, that's pretty messed up. And why can't we get to the bottom of these things? It's because most of us, if not all of us, are anti reality to some degree. And you can see really extreme cases of it. I think a really good example of that is there was this English woman, you'll know what I'm talking about, who was talking about parents who transition their children. And she just basically said, those parents will never give up. On their position because to give up on their position would be to admit that they did something horrific to their own children. They will not give up on that. And so there's an anti reality to that. You know, we talked a couple weeks ago about lying. And lying is sort of. It is to say I speak and reality unfolds from my voice. Only God does that. And to lie is to become a false God. It is to create an anti reality. And so if you want to conform yourself to actual reality, how much of you is built up of anti realities, those cannot conform to reality by definition. As a matter of fact, you hold those specifically because you look at reality and you don't like it. You know, I look at God and I don't like him, don't like the way he acts. And so I'm going to build my reality separate. But God and the logos, the order of things, the ultimate rationality, or maybe better said, the order by which rationality is possible. If I try to conform myself to that, all of my anti reality has to go. And that might be a lot. It might be so much for all of us that what Paul says is true. I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. All of me had to go.

[42:12] Michael: Which makes sense. I mean, you know, I think you see this in some of our ideas of marriage today. Sort of like, you know, to death, till death do us part, or with your kids. You know, it's sort of like it's a different. You're conforming to a new reality. And if you don't conform to that reality, you don't experience the thing, you know, and I think that's the, the hard thing too because I think that's what you experience is like you conformed to that reality of marriage and then it ripped you apart when it broke. But the thing is, is like you conform to it and there's something that's really, I don't know, kind of gut rich. Like why would I want. You hear people like why do I want to get married? Because like it's, it if, if it doesn't work, it is gut wrenching. If I go all in on this, if I actually give myself to this and it doesn't work, like I'm going to get ripped apart. It's like if you care about anything, it's like, it's like, I think a lot of it's, it's easy to not go in on something because it's like if you're wrong, it's like, you know, it's going to Be, it's, it's going to be gut wrenching to shift or to change. You know, it's like people who were like, you know, progressive or something like that and they're like, wait, what are we doing?

[43:41] Matt: Yeah, I'm trying to figure out a way to put it. Gut wrenching. That's not the right, it's not the right magnitude of thing. It ripped apart isn't even the right magnitude of thing. Maybe one way to look at it is it can and very often is deadly. Especially when people have been married for a long time and one of them dies.

[44:01] Michael: Oh yeah, very true.

[44:03] Matt: It's very common for the other to die quite quickly. I think it can be deadly. And having experienced it in the first half of my life, I would say that I've never had my sense of self or my, that's a way to put it, my sense of self. I'd never had that rattled so much. I mean I really, for a while there I didn't know who I was. I had to question basically everything that had happened in the previous 11 years. My knowledge and understanding could not grasp it. And I could see how if that had been 50 years and your whole life is brought into question, that's, That can break your mind. And it's sort of like, you know, you die in the Matrix, you die in real life. It's like when the mind is broken, it can take you with it.

[45:10] Michael: Yeah.

[45:11] Matt: So. I guess what's the moral of that? It's like, yeah, it's really serious. Conforming yourself to reality or to any reality, even anti reality. Because breaking from it can be destructive.

[45:32] Michael: Well, I think from kind of what happened to me where I actually believed in a alternate reality, like a reality that not everybody experiences. You know, it's like, you know, I believe that everyone could hear my thoughts and that I had certain amount of control over the world. And you know, you know, I remember reading the Bible and be like, oh man, you know, it's like maybe I could get a book written like this about me, you know, looking for a Yoda. You know, I can go on and on with the crazy ass shit that I believed.

[46:06] Matt: Just for clarity. For anybody who's listening, who doesn't know the story, there was a period in your life where when you were what, in your 20s?

[46:12] Michael: 19, like 20. 19 was like, yeah, 19 to 20.

[46:16] Matt: Which you now describe as having gone crazy. Yeah, yeah. So when you thought people could hear your thoughts, did that cause you to try to control your thoughts, to like avoid embarrassment or shame and Also just

[46:32] Michael: the shame of, like, it being laid bare in front of everyone, you know, that everyone could just see what was going on inside me. And there was, like, a lot of shame in that, too. Also, like, just having to learn how, like, I thought that if I thought a certain way that I could actually change and manipulate the world around me, you know? And so. So there was just a lot of. Kind of just battling in my. In myself, you know? Yeah. I mean, there was just. It's unexplainable. Like, in fact, I don't even. I don't think I realized how much of a hell I was in until many years after.

[47:11] Matt: Yeah. Do you hear your own thoughts?

[47:14] Michael: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[47:15] Matt: Like, as if you're speaking. Interesting.

[47:18] Michael: Yeah. Well, it's not just thoughts. It's like. It's like there's. There's sort of, like, ideas that have sort of, like, texture and taste. And the thoughts are something that's sort of like. Kind of pulling it down into edible sort of, like, bits, you know?

[47:40] Matt: Yeah.

[47:41] Michael: But then there's also this part where it's like. You can kind of like. I can just see, like, as I'm pulling it down, it's like. That doesn't taste right. That doesn't feel right. It's like you just start. It's a. I don't know. Sorry. Why'd you ask that I'm going off on something?

[47:59] Matt: Well, because I was just thinking. I don't know that I hear my thoughts, but I have heard that. I think Carl Jung talked about how some people think in words and other people think in pictures. And when you just said that, it made me realize I do sometimes hear my thoughts, but only when I'm working on something in my head that I have enough familiarity with that I need to sort of codify into something I have access to. I have on hand to retrieve. I think if I'm out for a walk and I'm just sort of. I'm not directing my thoughts necessarily. I'm just thinking about things. It is more like the texture and the taste kind of metaphor. I'm thinking a lot in pictures. Exactly. But it's sort of like I'm experiencing my thoughts as painting on a canvas. Something like that. And then when something clicks or I find access to something, it's like, oh, okay. Then I start to gather words for those, and those words become the marker back into the thought. And. Isn't that. It's kind of how we read books. Right.

[49:22] Michael: You know, the funny thing is, it's like I Am never reverse. Not doing that. Yeah, like, it just.

[49:28] Matt: I'm not either.

[49:28] Michael: Yeah, it's just sort of like, it just, it's just non, non stop. And so that was the, that was a, that was a crazy thing for me was like, it's like when your reality spins off into like, it's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's absolute chaos. But that's the thing that, why God makes so much sense to me is because as I got to know God and like understand Jesus, it's like, it's like sort of like all that chaos started to kind of like, like I feel like I understand like what Jesus is talking about is like. Whereas like he's like, I know who I am, but also don't know who I am. And it's like as, as my identity started to be more in the Father. It's sort of like, oh, I can rest. Like, you're holding this for me.

[50:15] Matt: That's so good.

[50:15] Michael: And it's sort of like. And it's like. And then it's like I want more of that. And so I think that's something that nobody can take away from me because I know the piece of that. And like, I've looked in like, you know, so many places for that. You know, even, even in following Jesus, I look at other places for like, for that and it's like I have never found it anyplace else. You know, I think that's the part that, that's why this makes so much sense to me. Because that's one part I really want to understand better is like, it's like, wow, how did, do, how did Jesus do that? Because I've experienced the piece of it. But I know like you said, like, I know I'm not, I'm not doing it the way that, you know, it's like there's so much more of me that needs to live in that reality. You know, in fact, talking about it right now, like, it, it, it just shines a light in like how much I don't do that, you know, or I'm not living in that reality. It's like I try to retrieve it back to like, where I try to control it and, and manipulate my, like what I want reality to be. Yeah. You know. Oh, dude, that's so crazy. That's like, That's fascinating because right now I'm seeing like there's this part where when I interact with people in a way that I'm discovering who they are. It's like, hey, sort of let me know who you are versus I'm telling them who they are. Does that make sense? In my head, sort of, this is who you are. And it's like, no, they're not. It's like they're actually more than that. And so I have to let that go. And it's like I find that with all sorts of reality, like, this is how my business is. This is how I do this. And it's like. It's like you start to kind of. Like it kind of goes back to what we're talking about at the beginning. It's like. It's like you need to name things. You know, I think part of naming things, you actually learn what they are not. You know, it's like, oh, it's like something in it, what I just named is tainted. It needs to be dismissed. It's like you make a plan. It's like, yeah, it's good, but it kind of almost is more revealing of what it is not than rather what it is. Maybe. Maybe I'm not saying that correctly, but.

[52:54] Matt: I know I was really struck by what you said about, you know, just sort of the chaos of that painting of thoughts. We want to wield it, we want to ride it, you know, we want to tame it. But I think there's something of the infinite in there. There's something of the eternal, there's something of God, and it is not tamable. I love this quote from Rich Mullins. He says, God is a wild man. I hope you get the chance to meet him. And when you do, hold on for dear life or maybe let go for dear life. But God is not to be tamed. He's to be related to. He is to be met. And I think in that meeting is maybe the only rest that we can really find, only real rest. Because I can't tame my mind, and I can't tame infinity or eternity. But God can. And in relating to him, I can give that to him. And I can say, maybe this is an answer to one of my previous questions. It's like I can say I don't have to take care of all the problems. I don't have to get there. In some sense, the there is here. It is the kingdom of heaven here and now on earth. It is to have a relationship with the unknown and the unseen and to know God and to take refuge and rest in that. And then I think, well, what's the. The opposite also helps me see it. I mean, I love that quote that evil is the spirit which believes its knowledge is sufficient.

[54:54] Michael: Oh, yeah.

[54:57] Matt: What is evil? It is that which says, no. I will tame infinity, I will tame eternity. I will write it, I will wield it. What are you talking about? You know what I mean. Like people said we shouldn't build the nuclear bomb because who can? Who can wield a weapon like that and not do horrible wrong? How many orders of magnitude is eternity? The power of eternity, the power of the universe, all known and unknown power. Who can wield that weapon, that tool, that truth? In a way, anyone who thinks they can is surely evil. And the opposite of that is to say, I can't. And actually thank God that I can't. Thank God that God can. And that's actually the first taste of rest I've had. Because what is the other rest I've known? Sleep doesn't work. Not most of the time. It's like I have nightmares. I wake up upset. Not all the time, but you know. You know what I mean? It's not reliable.

[56:16] Michael: Yeah, well. Reminds me of a verse in Romans 12:2. It's like, do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So you'll be able to test and approve what God's will is. And this is part of like. Okay, what does it mean to do not conform to the pattern of this world? You know, and I think that's a. I mean, there's. I think there's a lot buried in

[56:38] Matt: there, but it's like, oh, man. Well, that's where we started, right? We both got a bunch of patterns that we realize need to change. Do not conform to the patterns of this world.

[56:49] Michael: Yeah, what are some of the patterns? Like, one of them is envy. You know, it's like what somebody has that I don't have. You know, it's like I lust for, you know, money or. Or something that is, well, desirable.

[57:08] Matt: I think it's the pattern. The meta pattern is the pattern of anti reality. I don't want things to be the way they are. So maybe I'll just look at them or, sorry, not look at them. And then they won't be the way they are. Or I don't like the reality that I don't have this thing I want and you have the thing that I want. Envy. I don't like. Yeah, I don't want to conform to reality, so I conform to anti reality.

[57:40] Michael: Yeah. Which is kind of like the pattern of this world is kind of like a hiding, almost like Adam and Eve in the garden. It's like they send and it's like they hide. They don't want to be, they don't want to be seen, that they're naked.

[57:53] Matt: I don't like that. I feel ashamed. And so I'm going to conform myself to ego and arrogance.

[57:59] Michael: Ooh. Or am I going to make my shame something to be celebrated? You know, it's like.

[58:04] Matt: Or my illness. There's a lot of that going on.

[58:07] Michael: Yeah, totally.

[58:13] Matt: Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah, I don't like that I feel disappointed in myself or ashamed of how I've handled my relationships or my family. And so I'll just make sure everybody agrees with me that I'm a good person so I don't have to look at all those things anti reality. And I think that's why the, why to conform yourself to reality just to say to come and enter into a relationship with God. It's like you got to check it all at the, the door.

[59:06] Michael: Yeah.

[59:07] Matt: Or at the foot of the cross rather,

[59:11] Michael: which is cool. It's like, I think that's the part that I think, I think that, I think people get hung up on this is because sort of like, well, well, what is reality? How can you know what is reality? Well, it's like reality is something that you can measure and test and you know, way and stuff like that. And part of me is like, yes, you can test it, you know, it's like. And weigh it, you know, But I guess maybe I'm thinking more metaphorically but, you know, but the thing is, I think just even in that mindset, it's like you're starting to look outside of yourself. It's like, you know, I think that's why science is, was like kind of started or was like kind of like really flourished because of that perspective. Like there is something to be known. Let's go, let's go look for it. Yeah, let's measure whatever we can measure. Let's measure it, you know, and, and there was a mystery to it. And I think part of it is, is like we've lost the mystery of like, like what is out there. And, and we also are more and more wanting to take a lot of things and that maybe are not as, you know, I don't want to say scientific, but sort of like negate relationships, you know, like, what is marriage? Well, marriage doesn't really mean anything. You know, it's like maybe a short term contract or it's like we stop looking at the reality of like, okay, what is a marriage? It's like, it's like, it's like where two people come together and they bring life into the world, you know, and. And it's like this is a lifelong commitment that you do. It's like. And if there's something like really valuable in that, like an.

[61:04] Matt: Or edging on something here that I feel like I want to push into a little bit, which is that we've kind of become a society that's become anti scientific while at the same time demanding that we are all of the science, we are the most scientific.

[61:24] Michael: That's interesting.

[61:28] Matt: I'm not sure how to pull this into the conversation, but it seems like the reason that we have become anti science while demanding that we are super scientific has something to do with this conforming to reality idea, this God idea. Because we in the west largely have abandoned God as a sort of valid concept even. It's not even that we've become atheistic, it's that we've become anti God. Don't you think it's the same saying the same thing as anti reality? And once you become that, it's like you can say, well, the science says there are two sexes. Well, I don't like that. I don't like women or women, because there are some people who aren't women who want to be women. So let's dispense with the science then.

[62:44] Michael: Or at least obfuscated. It's like, oh, well, there's some animals that are asexual. And it's like.

[62:56] Matt: The science says that the median age of death from the COVID virus is higher than the average life expectancy before COVID Well, I don't like that because I'm afraid for my children. So the science needs to reflect my fear. And we need to mask our kindergarteners. The data says that being black does not make you more likely to be shot by a cop when you're unarmed. Well, I don't like that because I feel very disturbed by some videos that I saw on the Internet. And I can't enact the policies to deal with my fear with that science. So let's fire that guy from Harvard or let's get rid of that. I mean, this is the anti reality stance.

[63:55] Michael: Or even just like the whole thing with immigration right now is sort of like, you know, I'm going to be so against deporting immigrants that I would rather somebody go free that's not from here that's committed crimes. It's like Mandavi was on. I think it was like yesterday about trying to get this one guy out that committed two different crimes. He was shot. I don't know the particulars of it. It's like maybe it was a bad situation or whatever, but. But it's more of like a, a symptom of like, like wait, that's just, that's just. What is that? What are we even doing? You know, it's like, here's a non citizen who has committed crimes and it's like. And we're wanting to release him into the. You wouldn't even do that for somebody who is. Well, maybe actually they do want to do that too. Release them into the, into the general public, you know.

[64:48] Matt: Yeah, so that's another good one. And I really wanted to drive toward the marriage one. It's like, what is marriage? It is the declaration of our responsibility to usher new life into the world. Well, I don't like that because two men can't usher new life into the world. So let's get rid of the institution of marriage and wear its skin suit on our face and say, this is what marriage is now. And I think in all of these things, in all of anti reality, it becomes illegal for things to have definitions.

[65:41] Michael: Oh, interesting.

[65:42] Matt: Because definitions are exclusionary, judgmental too, towards what's not in the definition. Yeah, right. But nothing should be exclusionary, therefore nothing should be definable. And if nothing's definable, it's like, what are you going to do? Even the whole game of I'm going to tame eternity and find the right words for the, the great painting of thought and the chaos of ideas, I'm going to find it's like you can't do that because you don't have any words left. There's nothing, there's nothing. There are no names left to give. All names have, have been invalidated.

[66:33] Michael: Or even just the idea of like, you know, I'm not against, you know, taxes to some degree, but you know, it's like, let's tax the billionaires and focus our. But there's so much fraud way beyond. You could what? You could even tax billionaires for.

[66:48] Matt: Right?

[66:49] Michael: And it's like, why don't we focus there first? Because at least these billionaires and, and a lot of them are actually providing jobs and creating value and your package is on your doorstep that you benefit from. You know, it's like, it's like. Or should we go after those who are defrauding the American taxpayer that billions and billions of dollars? You know, it's like, like, it's like this sort of like anti reality of sort of. I would rather go after someone who's providing value than for somebody who's stealing value from me. In fact, I want to make it harder for you to go after the people that are stealing value from the American taxpayers.

[67:32] Matt: Actually going to pass a law that makes it illegal to go after the people stealing from the taxpayers and then another law making it legal to steal from the rich people.

[67:43] Michael: Yeah.

[67:45] Matt: So again, it's a breakdown in definition. Like, what's the definition of good? Just what's the definition of fraud? What's the definition of social benefit? And it seems to me like if you dispense with God, you have to become your own God. But not only can you not do it, you're so bad at it actually that you're not even like a shitty little God. You annihilate everything when taken to its ultimate conclusion. You annihilate the ability to think itself. I mean, what does ORWELL say in 1984 when Winston's having the conversation with the guy who's revising the Newspeak book, and the guy basically says in its perfect form, how does he say it? We'll get it down to something like 34 words. I think he says something like, maybe it won't even be necessary to speak at all because we will have perfected thought. What use is perfected thought if there's no point in speaking? That's the annihilation of the mind. And I think you see the same with the body, you know, I don't know. Look at old paintings of people. Compare them with what you see every day walking down the street. Are we looking better on account of all of our science and enlightenment and food science, health science, the information age, the Internet, you know, few and far between are doing okay, Doing pretty good. There's hot people out there for sure. But aren't we like the fattest people in all of history?

[69:50] Michael: Well, definitely in the west or in America for sure.

[69:52] Matt: Yeah. I can't say it's been over an hour. Things have been flying around. Well, and so perhaps it is that in order to move away from anti reality into reality, it is necessary for a term that seems inverted, but it's only inverted because the opposite of it would have been wrong to start with. But maybe it's that it's necessary for us to become anti enlightenment.

[70:48] Michael: Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, I feel like we've kind of danced around a whole bunch of things today, and I don't know if, like, some of the connections have. Have landed. Because I think that's the one thing you do sort of confess with Christ is like. It's like, I don't know what reality is.

[71:10] Matt: Like, I don't know you. Yeah, I want to know you.

[71:13] Michael: And you know what? I can see in myself that I have violated reality, you know? And like, that's basically the confession, you know, we call it sin, but it's like I have violated reality, you know, And. And it's like, it's hard not to. If you can't see that in yourself, then you're kind of, like, really blind, you know, like the Pharisees, because they followed all the laws and did all the things it's like they couldn't see that they have and are violating reality.

[71:45] Matt: Yeah.

[71:45] Michael: Like, oh, you can't heal on the Sabbath. It's like, what are you. What are you thinking? You're, like, violent. Like, this person is healed. It's like, it's like you knew it would rather it not because of your laws, you know, it's like, well, not

[72:01] Matt: only could they not see, made them angry. Isn't that something you can resonate with in your own heart?

[72:12] Michael: Yeah,

[72:14] Matt: because reality makes us angry.

[72:16] Michael: Totally.

[72:17] Matt: I mean, even angry that things aren't the way I want them to be.

[72:19] Michael: Just our conversation talking about this. It's like I'm seeing my violation of reality, you know, it's like, even. Not even be able to grasp some of the things that we're talking about.

[72:29] Matt: About.

[72:29] Michael: I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I'm probably way off here. Or like, I don't see things as they should be, you know, and even Paul talks about. It's like, you know, we look into a mirror and see very, you know, vaguely of who we are.

[72:44] Matt: I mean, What's one of the most common recurring memes of the current age? It's that cartoon dog sitting at the breakfast table with a cup of coffee, and everything around him is on fire. And he's saying, this is fine.

[73:03] Michael: It's fine. Yeah.

[73:05] Matt: I mean, that is a picture of the violation of reality. Right in the meme. The joke is that it's the dog's reality that's being violated. Right. Because it's not fine. Yeah, but I think the reality is the dog is violating reality by not recognizing the fire and saying, this is not fine. That's like, totally sums up our whole current age, the whole zeitgeist.

[73:42] Michael: Yeah, it's fine. The science says it's fine.

[73:46] Matt: Yeah, right.

[73:47] Michael: It's like, I don't know what you're paying attention to, but yeah, there's something about that. I love the I think I loved your example about like. Like definitions becoming our judge. You know, it's like anytime you start to define something or name something, it's like it does become your judge. Because now it's. You can. You can now see, you know, it's like, you know, or you start to explore, like, what does it mean to be married? What does it mean to be a friend? What does it mean to be a good neighbor? Yeah, it's like once you start answering those questions, it's like, oh, to be a good neighbor. Just the people I like. Oh, no. To like people I don't like. What does it mean to be a good neighbor to people I don't like? It's like, oh, that I don't have to be a good neighbor to those people.

[74:42] Matt: Even more than that, what does it mean to love your enemy?

[74:44] Michael: Love your enemy. Yeah.

[74:47] Matt: I. I like the way you just said that. I don't know if you said that or if I just said it in my head while you were talking. I think to name it is to see it. You can't see it unless you name it something. Like, it's a. It's an issue of perception. I. You can't see your marriage unless you call it a marriage and then have some definition for what a marriage is. And then what is it that you see in the light of that? That definition becomes a light that shines on you. What is it that you see by way of that light? You might see, oh, we have a shitty marriage. I'm a shitty husband. And then it's like, okay, you either get divorced or I figure out how to shape myself up.

[75:48] Michael: Yeah.

[75:54] Matt: It just makes me wonder, like, if there's just something very profound in the story of Genesis, when God brings the animals one by one in front of Adam and has him name them.

[76:13] Michael: What's interesting too is, like, once you name something, you also have a relate. You start to have a relationship with it.

[76:18] Matt: Right. You know, and having a relationship with it means you can see it. It's kind of bending my brain because seeing something is not observing the light that's bouncing off its material. It's like, think about the movie Avatar when the. Whatever they're called. Blue people greet each other. They say, I see you. It's not a statement about the physicality of their proximity. Thank God the lights are on. I see you. It's like, no, that's not what they're saying. And we all understand this because it's an allegory in which those are the indigenous people who are being violated by the colonizers. And the indigenous people have ancient wisdom that we've lost touch with through our enlightenment, industrial revolution, and scientific process and all of these things. So, again, another contradiction. It's like we're simultaneously obsessed with other ways of knowing and yet holding up the flag of science and saying we're the most scientific people that ever lived. We want both at the same time because definitions are illegal. Once we made definitions outlawed, we could have both at the same time. I can have whatever suits my fancy in the moment, but we understand that. I see you. It's like I. I recognize you

[77:57] Michael: because it's fascinating. Like, there's this whole, like, you're kind of painting a picture for me as sort of like, you know, hey, Matt, this is my daughter, Hannah. And it's like, stating a fact, this is my daughter, Hannah.

[78:09] Matt: Right.

[78:10] Michael: But. But I'm also. Sorry, I'm communicating a relationship. And it's very. That's a very shallow relationship. Daughter Hannah. It's like. But then it's like, it goes. It starts to go. If it goes beyond that, it's like, she's not just my daughter. This is my daughter, who is. You know, it's like you start to explain who she is, your relationship with her, her thoughts, her feelings. It's like. It's like. It's not just a fact. It's actually like, I see you. It's like, this is my daughter, Hannah. I'm actually saying more than just, like, you know, a fact of. That's her name.

[78:47] Matt: Exactly. It's almost like it's something of an invitation. Like if I were meeting a person for the first time, and it's another man, and he has a young child, female daughter with him. And he says, yeah, hey, nice to meet you. This is my name. He says, I'm Eric. I say, I'm Matt. And he goes, yeah, and this is my daughter. Anyways, so what are you up to? I would probably go, like, internally, I'd be like, okay, don't engage the daughter. I have not been invited to know this young person who is under his protection.

[79:24] Michael: Totally. That's interesting. Yeah.

[79:25] Matt: Whereas if he says, this is my daughter, Matilda, I might go, hey, Matilda. Nice to meet you. It's like, that is the invitation for me to acknowledge and continue and initiate an exchange.

[79:42] Michael: Yeah. Or the father says, like, hey, Matilda, introduce yourself to Matt.

[79:46] Matt: Yeah, yeah.

[79:47] Michael: And then you'd be like, oh, hey, Matilda. You actually. Then you actually almost kind of play the game, too. It's a social game of like, hey, I'm Matt. How are you doing? Are you in school? Like, are you. You know, it's like, he's basically inviting you to drive. Draw her out.

[80:02] Matt: Yeah.

[80:02] Michael: And say, you know, it's like. Or, you know, you come over to my house and, like, my kids say, hey, Matt. And you're like, hey, how are you going? You're like, you ask them questions. It's like, you know, and it's like, you draw them out. It's like, they're not just my kids. They're also like, they know you really well. And it's like. And so I think there's something about that, like. Like, we maybe try to turn things too much into what?

[80:29] Matt: I was just laughing in my. I was just thinking about how the last time I was over at your house, or maybe it was two or three times ago, but we were watching. We've been watching UT football every weekend, and your kids have gotten. A couple of your kids have gotten into it, and one of them. She was kind of drawing me out. She's asking me questions about football and, like, did you see the Odyssey yet? Have you seen Spider man yet? And by the end of the night, she's like, your homework is to watch the Odyssey in Spider man and report back. That's great, because she wanted to know what I thought about those things. It's not just that she knows me. It's that she wants to know me. It's like,

[81:10] Michael: that's so beautiful, but interesting because if you kind of extrapolate that there's something about the universe that,

[81:21] Matt: like,

[81:21] Michael: that is embedded into it. It's like. Like, if we just walk into somebody say, hi, Hannah. Hi, Michael. Hi, bro. You know, it's like. It's just like. It's just. We're just exchanging facts and stuff like that. It's like. Like, there's not a richness to it, but you experience the richness whenever it's like, hey, man, like, how's it going? Like. Like, seems like you've been having a rough time. Or, like, oh, man, that's so cool you got this job. Fantastic.

[81:46] Matt: More than that, it's actually a really good way if you want to convince an audience that a character in a movie is a psychopath. You make him very robotic. You make his speech kind of uncanny. Because there's something in that that says, there's something off behind those eyes. I'm not sure it's completely human.

[82:14] Michael: Yeah.

[82:16] Matt: What is that? I've probably quoted it before. I think it's from the Narnia series. If something which used to be human but is no longer, or ought to be human but isn't, or is human but is human no longer, keep your eye on it and feel for your hatchet.

[82:40] Michael: Hmm. I don't know what that means.

[82:44] Matt: It means, well, that you can see a lack of humanity in something which ought to be human, and that that's something you should keep your eye on and feel for your weapon.

[82:59] Michael: Totally.

[83:00] Matt: Because it's dangerous. Yeah.

[83:03] Michael: I think I experienced this a lot in downtown Austin especially. We had. We'd had three stores and one on the campus at this time, and. And I could always really, like, suss out the, like, the homeless population. You know, it's like. Like, okay, hey, no. Okay, no, you're safe. You know, a little off, but you're safe, or something like that, you know, like, whoa, you're off. Like. Or there's, you know, there's one guy, depending on what he was on or even how he was, is, like, he could be the nicest guy. But then, like. But occasionally you look at me like. Like, no, something's. Something's off, and I just need to kind of like, okay, hey, how about we just kind of move on?

[83:42] Matt: Right?

[83:43] Michael: You're good. You know, let's move on. And. But there is something about that is like. Like, somehow you're. You're not. You're no longer relating to somebody who is relational. It's like, totally.

[84:02] Matt: Well, I think it's just. Makes me think about how in A Movable Feast, Ernest Hemingway describes this encounter he had with F. Scott Fitzgerald. And Fitzgerald was famously married to Zelda. And Zelda was this terrible woman, honestly. And she really did a number on him. And she was a big partier and drinker, and he sort of became a drinker, as far as I read the story, in order to cope with her. And I guess there was a period of time where it got bad enough for him, where Hemingway describes walking. Seeing him at a bar and walking up to him and saying, I've never seen anything like it. Basically, he looked at me and he was not there. And I was reading that, and I was like, what do you mean you've never seen anything like it? I've seen that plenty of times in my life. Somebody's blackout drunk, they're not there, you know, and while that is somewhat of a normal experience to see, especially, I think, in your younger years, when you see somebody who's not there, who is not blackout drunk, somebody who is sober, and they come up to you and you're like, you're not there. That's unnerving.

[85:18] Michael: Or even when an ideology is like. And captured them and they're like, they're, they're saying things that you're like, it's like, no, you're not saying something. You actually believe. You're actually, you're, you're, you're saying something that is a script of some sort, but that's not you. It's like, I think I experienced this during COVID is like people I'd known before and then they sort of scripts coming out of their mouth that I'm like, it's almost like cultish, you know, it's like I'm like, wait, no, you know me. We've had, we have like a relationship, right? And now it's like, it's like as if that whole relationship is gone. And I have actually, I've actually, I'm a, I'm a different. The person that you're looking at is not like, it's not me. You're looking at somebody else. Yeah, it just, it just, it was a weird feeling.

[86:08] Matt: It reminds me of this interaction that I have at least twice a year, which is somebody knocks at my door, I open the door, they say, hey, how you, how you doing? I say, good, can I help you? And they go, we were just installing windows down at your neighbor's house over there, Dottie. And we're just one. I just was walking by and noticing that you got these older double hung windows. And we just want. And they do this script, this whole script, and I just wait. I know when they're done, you know, because I've heard it many times. I'm like, my presence for this conversation is not required.

[86:41] Michael: I've just checked out. You're like, okay, what do I do? Yeah, okay.

[86:45] Matt: But my point is, it's like there's no acknowledgment on their side. They're a solicitor, A solicitor is going to deliver their thing and then you're either gonna. I mean, I guess if it's Charlie Parkin, then you're gonna buy something from him.

[87:00] Michael: But totally shout out to Charlie. Yeah.

[87:06] Matt: I just say that because he was super successful as a door to door book salesman for a long time and he's been on the podcast and you could probably figure out why that is just by knowing him. But the majority of the solicitors just come deliver their thing and you're just waiting for them to get to the point where they're pausing long enough for you to go, no, thank you, you know, goodbye. It's like it's an inhuman kind of reaction. Which is, I think is why we're so, we're all so averse to solicitors and why it would not be hard for you to pick up a plaque that says no solicitors. No, we make those things, they're available and you can put them on your door. Because we all know there's something like non human about it, let's put it that way.

[87:55] Michael: What's funny? I kind of wonder someone how I kind of like sometimes I go into business mode. So how would you explain this? Because like, you know, if you're going to let somebody go, like sometimes you have to kind of go into like a, a sort of like script or something like that. Because it's like you can only give somebody like two or three reasons like, hey, we're letting you go because of

[88:18] Matt: these two or three things and you're firing someone.

[88:21] Michael: Yeah. And it's like, but then they want to argue all these other, all these other things. It's like, okay, hey, actually I can't talk about those things with you, but this is why we're letting you go. You know, it's like, and it's like it does feel sort of like a. It never is fun to fire people. It's just horrible. But it's like, but it's like, it's like you kind of have to put on like a little bit of like, oh, wow, that's interesting. Like you're severing a relationship. And how do you do that?

[88:49] Matt: It's non relational.

[88:51] Michael: Yeah, well, I mean, I think there

[88:54] Matt: are ways that you can do it with grace and kindness, but. Yeah, but the real point is, yes, you're severing a relationship, which means that sometimes what grace and kindness looks like is, I'm sorry, this is over. Yeah, I mean, I've never been on, I've never fired anyone. I've been let go. So I know those, how those conversations are. But I mean, I think the example that more people can relate to is a breakup. It's like the more you try to adjudicate a breakup, the more you try to. Let's talk through everything. The more you try to, you know, clear the air. It's like you're going to get back together. You're either going to get back together or you're going to deepen the wounds. And sometimes the best thing you can do is say, I'm sorry, I'm going to let you go in love. And right now, me loving you is choosing not to love you anymore.

[89:57] Michael: Our relationship is changing now. It's like, whether it's like we're no longer, like, boyfriend and girlfriend or husband and wife or whatever it might be. It's like, you know, it's like, maybe at some point we can be friends again, you know, but there actually might be some time to. For us to be able to get there, because it's like, again, it's like when you break up with somebody, it's like, it's not. It's not like you can be friends like, the next day, like, hey, what's up, Jill? You know, some people try to do

[90:27] Matt: that, but it seems so fake to me.

[90:28] Michael: Yeah.

[90:35] Matt: My mind is going other places.

[90:37] Michael: Should we. Should we wrap it or.

[90:39] Matt: I think we should. I don't think I want to open any more of those right now.

[90:43] Michael: I think we've opened enough. I don't know. What do we want to wrap on? Kind of give it a.

[90:53] Matt: Well, did we answer the question? Like, what is the hope that sustains the futility of. Are we there yet?

[91:02] Michael: Well, I think so. I mean, I think the relational part, I think, really kind of hits home there, you know?

[91:07] Matt: Yeah.

[91:08] Michael: It's like, really. It is like, When you do that, like, what's your thought? Oh, yeah.

[91:17] Matt: Well, that and I think. Think that the rest you can find in God really stood out to me. It's like, yeah, you have an infinite set of problems in front of you, and you're going to go part of the way, but you don't have to get through them all. You don't have to attain eternity. You can find rest in saying the part of me that is weak, the part of me that I don't know very well, the part of me that is staring, this, pushing Sisyphus's rock. Well, I can find that in God, and God has the power and the strength to hold that, and I don't have to hold it.

[92:03] Michael: I think that's one thing that stuck out to me is like, I know I said this, but it still impacted me because I wasn't really listening to what I said. But it's like. It's like just the confession that I have violated reality. I think there's something about that then that just opens us up to what is reality. You know, it's like, I feel like that's kind of what we do when we confess Christ is like, hey, I have violated reality. And you're. And you have made a sacrifice to welcome me back. And so it's like. And then you. You put your hope there, and it's sort of like. It's like, okay, I have violated it now. I'm looking to you to make that hole in me, you know? And that's like a process, you know? Fix your eyes on Christ. Do not conform to the pattern of this world. It's sort of like now that I've confessed, I've violated reality. It's like. Like, that is my hope. Isn't like, okay, I want that reality in me, you know? Bring that. Put that in me.

[93:08] Matt: I feel like you just totally unpacked repentance. It's like, that's the process of repentance.

[93:14] Michael: Yeah, that's true.

[93:19] Matt: Cheers to that.

[93:19] Michael: Cheers. Yeah, definitely. Love you guys. Thanks for coming on this wild and crazy journey with us.

[93:25] Matt: Totally love you all out there. Thanks for being with us. Sam.