300 Shores Visited

[0:00] Matt: It comes like a fleeting memory. Whatever you grab just turns to dust. Like eye contact with strangers. All right, all right.

[0:23] Michael: A rat. A rat. A rat.

[0:25] Matt: Hey, cheers to episode 300.

[0:27] Michael: 300 shores visited.

[0:32] Matt: That's a lot of shores.

[0:34] Michael: It is a lot of shores. I kind of.

[0:36] Matt: I'm like, oh,

[0:40] Michael: stuff around.

[0:41] Matt: Oh, hello.

[0:42] Michael: Hello. Yeah.

[0:43] Matt: Okay. Are we good?

[0:44] Michael: We're good. That's a lot. 300 is a lot.

[0:48] Matt: I remember distinctly when we hit 100, and I remember writing in my journal about it. Like, just felt, like, really monumental. And that was over two years ago now.

[0:59] Michael: Yeah.

[1:02] Matt: 300 conversations that gone everywhere, from COVID to politics, more recently into religion.

[1:14] Michael: Yeah.

[1:16] Matt: I was looking at our insights as far as I can understand them. The way we publish our podcast, it's a little weird trying to figure out who's listening or how many people might be listening. I want to try to get that fixed. But I was looking at it, and by the numbers that I can have access to, this year has been our best year so far.

[1:34] Michael: Really?

[1:34] Matt: Yeah.

[1:35] Michael: That's fascinating.

[1:36] Matt: The previous best year was 2021.

[1:38] Michael: Oh, wow. Okay.

[1:39] Matt: Which is interesting, I think, because we were talking a lot about probably Covid and all of that stuff going on.

[1:46] Michael: Yeah. People also had a lot more time to listen to stuff, probably back then.

[1:50] Matt: Yeah. But this year has surpassed it.

[1:53] Michael: Wow.

[1:54] Matt: Yeah.

[1:54] Michael: That's cool.

[1:55] Matt: We still got two months left.

[1:56] Michael: I love it.

[1:58] Matt: So cheers to that.

[2:00] Michael: Cheers to that. Yeah, it's been. I just think about just the. The impact on. On my life that having done this. I mean, you and I have been having these conversations for years, and even outside, just the podcast, so it's like. But specifically doing the podcast, I think, has helped me better formulate my ideas. And, you know, you come on here, you know, as you guys are listening to this right now, it's like, this is all stuff, like, we're working out in real time. Like, yeah, you know, we might have some half thoughts and stuff like that, but I go back and listen to our episodes just to kind of like, oh, okay, I need to think about that. And that's as if I'm listening to two strangers that I. I don't know. And I'm trying to, you know, just get inside it. So it's really fun to. To see how that has kind of grown and changed to me as far as my understanding of the world and all the different topics like you and I have discussed.

[2:54] Matt: So how do you think the podcast itself factors into that? Above and beyond or differently than just a normal conversation? What. What you and my. You and I might consider a normal conversation, you know, around a fire or in the backyard.

[3:08] Michael: Well, I think one is I can go back and listen to it. And so I think that has been helpful for me just to be able to hear, like, I distinctly can see, like, how, like, what you bring to this and then what I bring to it and kind of complimentary aspects of it and how you need to get your thoughts out and to just. Just have somebody else reflect your thoughts back to you. Like, when you said this, it made me think this. Like, oh, cool. And then it made me think this. And so, like, the escalation of thought. And so it's like. It's interesting too. Like, it made me think more about how you invite people into a conversation, like in the sauna or something like that. It's like, here's what I'm thinking. And then someone might come across as, like, no, you're good.

[3:58] Matt: Oh, yeah.

[3:58] Michael: It might come across as sort of like, they might come and say, like, oh, I disagree with that. And instead of, like, I'm arguing with somebody, like, okay, why? Why. Why do you think that way? And. And it's just sort of like allowing the conversation to grow rather than it be a battle of an idea, like

[4:17] Matt: learning to play with ideas rather than battle them.

[4:19] Michael: Totally.

[4:20] Matt: Yeah.

[4:20] Michael: And I think that's what you and I have kind of always done well together. But I think through this format specifically, it's just. Ha. It's. I've had to actually wrangle in my thoughts and be more intentional.

[4:35] Matt: Yeah.

[4:36] Michael: Which you probably like listening to this. You're. You probably definitely know that I'm more the. The unwrangled person, but let's just say I'm a lot more unraveled.

[4:47] Matt: I'm more wrangled.

[4:47] Michael: You're more wrangled. Yeah. You kind of like, you have a. You. You've always been really good at that as far as like, capturing something and sort of, like, allowing it kind of putting it into a good format, you know?

[4:58] Matt: Well, I think. I think I've definitely gotten better at that as a consequence of 300 episodes of this. It seems to me like if you and I are hanging out and talking about a lot of the same subjects that we talk about on this podcast, there isn't anything. I'm not obligated to make the conversation particularly coherent or cohesive, and I'm not even obligated to stay in it necessarily. It may be. And I think this is totally natural in the course of any conversation at some point, a person's mind is going to drift and they're going to remember the things that they were supposed to do that day that they didn't, or remember some old grief or sadness or whatever and just disengage a little bit. And that's totally acceptable. Acceptable within a conversation. But I think because of the nature of this being a recording, I tend to keep my mind very vigilant through the course of this conversation, you know, because you don't want dead air and you want. You want to sound coherent and competent

[6:09] Michael: and move the conversation forward.

[6:11] Matt: Right. To move it forward, to make it interesting. And so I don't let my mind wander or I try not to. Sometimes it does. It gets the better of me. But I think that has taught me how to hold threads and take tangents and be able to come back to stuff. It has taught me about how in the course of a conversation, I'm like, okay, it would be good to sort of mentally bookmark that spot right there, because I think we're going to divert from it and it'd be good to

[6:42] Michael: pull it back to that totally.

[6:44] Matt: And I think it. Just because it's the nature of work of a recording, I do that actively, whereas I don't necessarily do that super actively in non recorded conversation.

[6:55] Michael: Yeah.

[6:57] Matt: And I think the result of that is, well, I've learned something. It's kind of like a little skill that I've learned that has enabled me to sharpen my thinking. Even when I sit down to write something. I think I'm a better writer because of this experience.

[7:15] Michael: Yeah.

[7:17] Matt: So, yeah, we were talking earlier about baptism, you know, making the point that it's more important. It's not about the salvation, it's more important that it's a marker in the Christian's life. And I was thinking recently in the last couple of days about prayer and whether or not it's important to pray out loud. It's like, well, if God knows my thoughts, he's inside my brain, he's inside my spirit, then I can talk to him without opening my mouth. But I think it's a similar kind of thing. It's important. Jordan Peterson would say the way you learn to think is you write. Writing orders your thinking. That's how you learn to think, which is kind of counterintuitive. It's like you might imagine that if I want to get an idea out, I think on it and think on it and think on it. And once I have it, I write down the characters that represent the idea. And I don't think that's the case. And doing something like this is similar. It's teaching me to order my thinking such that I can effectively pursue ideas. And that's both in the podcast and off the podcast. In my own writing and even in my own internal life thinking through things, I noticed the beginnings and ends of wrestling with particular ideas in my life. Like, oh, I noticed that one kind of coming up. And here's how I'm going to tackle it. And here's the places where I know I need to work on that thought or that idea.

[8:50] Michael: Yeah, no, makes sense. I think it also exposes. I feel sometimes exposed whenever I, when I say something and then I'm like, oh, wait a minute, why do I think that? And, and to work that out on here has been kind of fun to do, to kind of challenge myself as far as some things I kind of take for granted. And I'm like, oh, wait, why do I think that?

[9:19] Matt: Well, what I thought you were going to say is that it exposes you to like, being outed for having the opinions that you have, which I think it has, because that's true. It's interesting that at the beginning of this we had sort of a no fly list of concepts and we completely dispensed with that. And really early on, the two big no fly lists were religion and politics. And maybe we could reflect a little bit about how we kind of got over that. But I have a question for you.

[9:52] Michael: What's up?

[9:53] Matt: Do you think this process has made you more courageous?

[9:58] Michael: I think so. Like, I. Things make a lot more sense to me now as we've kind of like worked through a lot of these ideas. You know, as far as I think some things I've just really solidified for me is that like, I really do think most people should have, be married and have kids, like, no matter how hard our money and all that kind of stuff. I think that's just the, I think that's something that's really solidified for me more, more and more as we talk. Because I just don't know how you engage the world if you don't, if you're not really invested in it. I think the, the biggest investment you can have is marriage and having kids, you know, and then probably your work is the next thing, you know, like, what are you going to contribute to the world? So I think those, those three things have been really, I think, impactful for me as far as, like, what I've, what I've kind of gotten out of this. But I think Too. Just the even. Just the exposing. Because I think that's something I've always, like, even with. What I do with Medici is sort of like, Medici is a neutral space. And so, you know, I don't put my ideas in Medici, you know, like, my beliefs and stuff like that. I guess tangentially I do, but that's the whole thing is like, I want to hire people from all walks of life, you know, and that can be, you know, Democrat, Republican, different religions, different social views and stuff like that. And so I've always kind of felt like I need to kind of keep my stuff separate in order to preserve that so that Medici is not about maybe the more particular views I have on those things because, like, I want it to be the place where the conversation happens, you know, so. So I think that's something that's been kind of fun for me on this podcast is kind of like, oh, no. It's like, it's almost given me more permission to. It's like, no, it's okay for me to have certain views.

[11:51] Matt: Yeah.

[11:52] Michael: And that doesn't impact. That doesn't impact the space, you know.

[11:56] Matt: Well, I was going to say, wouldn't it impact the space more by keeping your views out of it than it would to lead the example of, like, this is a place where ideas are free and conversation should and should happen?

[12:10] Michael: Well, I think it's just your different roles. So, like, my role at Medici is more of a moderator, you know, so, like, a moderator facilitates the conversation. Like, you know, the people asking the political questions of the candidates. It's like, they're supposed to not be.

[12:25] Matt: We're not supposed to be listening in order to know what they think.

[12:28] Michael: Yeah, they're not important to, like, but. But they should be holding a space for the views to be discussed, you know, and to. So I've always kind of feel like that's kind of more my role with Medici as a. As a moderator.

[12:45] Matt: It just makes me think of that, like, at the beginning of the intellectual dark web in, like, 2018, which is really around the time we started this. We started this in 2018, but we didn't get included in the IDW, man.

[12:59] Michael: We put in our application, but we got denied.

[13:07] Matt: There was a debate between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris.

[13:11] Michael: Those are so good. Yeah.

[13:12] Matt: Brett Weinstein moderated a few of them, and he was an excellent moderator.

[13:16] Michael: Yeah.

[13:17] Matt: He did not inject his own views into the conversation at all, I thought. I remember watching that at time, thinking, that's a. That's a skill. It is hard not to want to get in there and say what you think.

[13:29] Michael: Yeah, it definitely is. Especially whenever, like, you know, people want to take that, I guess, like, especially our business, into certain ways or viewpoints to be more. More expressed than other viewpoints and to keep it neutral. You know, you're definitely. I've been definitely kind of pushed in those areas that I felt very challenged by.

[13:56] Matt: Yeah.

[13:58] Michael: But I feel like we. We came out of it, I think, really well, but definitely felt the pressure.

[14:04] Matt: Yeah.

[14:05] Michael: Whether I did it well or not, that's a whole other thing. But we. I think it's. I think the whole idea of Medici has been preserved through all that.

[14:14] Matt: Well, back to the question about courage. I think I can say for myself that it has made me more courageous.

[14:21] Michael: Yeah? How so?

[14:23] Matt: Well, I think just the observation that we eventually decided to talk about politics and religion, I think that took some courage. Took us a while to get there. But I think it's also that what I've learned through these conversations, that I actually do have the ability to think through something and come to a conclusion and stand on that conclusion and also still hold the humility to say, if it turns out that this conclusion is wrong, then I want to go back through and think about it again. And I feel like I have the tools and the skills to be able to do that confidently, rather than just sort of. Or the tools and skills to say, here's what I think and here's why I think it. Whereas I think before, especially in politics and religion, I was a little bit more like, well, I think. I think this, but I don't exactly know why most people I know think this. So I think I have grown in courage. It's also been difficult because it has caused a little bit of, what, friction in my life because I've come to heterodox conclusions. Even just about COVID we came to the conclusion that the vaccine wasn't worth it. And I. I caught a lot of grief for that.

[15:45] Michael: Yeah.

[15:45] Matt: Actually lost a job because of that. But I was like. I felt very strong in that conclusion because we had spent a lot of time coming to it.

[15:55] Michael: Yeah.

[15:55] Matt: You know, totally. And it's like, I knew the reasons why.

[16:01] Michael: That's crazy.

[16:02] Matt: Yeah. But I feel that way with a lot of things. I mean, I think more recently in our podcast and in you and I's lives, I have just become more and more convinced about the undeniable truth of the Bible and Jesus Christ. And I've been a Christian for 37 years. Something like that. And it's Just it has been opening up to me in a way that it never has before and I feel confident about that.

[16:36] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, it's been kind of fun just like just walking this whole road with you, you know, as far as like, you know, everything from, you know, pre, we talked about religion or politics to, you know, even today just even being more, you know, like I probably was not, I was not so much like quoting Bible verses before except for maybe a little bit of occasion. It's like, it's like now it's just I don't really care because like, okay, no, this is how I came to this conclusion. And actually this verse really helped me kind of think about this and just kind of being more honest with even my process, you know, and trying and not being as neutral or as a moderator, but being more of an active participant in thinking through something, how I think about it, not how I'm supposed to think about it. And I think that's been really helpful.

[17:33] Matt: Just gonna tell a joke. Not so much a joke, just a quip. It's like you're not supposed to think about things. Your opinions will be assigned to you. Michael. Don't you understand the modern culture? You're not allowed to do your own research, Michael.

[17:49] Michael: Well, I feel like I feel more freedom to have complicated, I guess, reasons or thoughts about something that I'm okay with somebody thinking something I say is binary because I know now more about how actually complicated it is and, and you know, oh, you know, because we saw this there in Covet. It's sort of like, oh, you're anti vaxxer. It's like, that's not what I said. Yeah, I have concerns about this, the, the, the COVID vaccine and here's my concerns. And so given those concerns, I'm going to opt to not do it.

[18:35] Matt: Yeah.

[18:35] Michael: And I would say, like you could equally validly, I think, say, hey, understand the concerns and say, I think my concern, the getting it outweighs my concerns.

[18:45] Matt: Right.

[18:45] Michael: Like I could see you having that a valid conclusion to that. But it's like I feel, I feel more okay about being misunderstood. I think that's one thing I really have a hard time with in general is when someone misunderstands me.

[19:02] Matt: Yeah.

[19:02] Michael: Like to call it like, oh, you're an anti vaxxer. It's like, no, I think science is really badass and has helped us a

[19:08] Matt: lot, but

[19:11] Michael: there's always trade offs. There's Nothing that's really 100% good for you.

[19:17] Matt: I think I'm trying to be more Comfortable with being misunderstood. It's hard, though.

[19:23] Michael: Yeah.

[19:25] Matt: I was thinking about, remember when Elon Musk did the Nazi salute, so called. I ran into this where somebody said something or I said something, and the response that I got back from the other person seemed incongruous to me. And I thought, well, if. If that's what you think I meant, then where is any other evidence at all that I might think that? Like, look around. Everything seems to be to the contrary. So wouldn't like your first conclusion be like, maybe you misunderstood me. But then I was thinking about Elon Musk and I was like, if Elon Musk is. If he's Nazi enough to do a Nazi salute to a massive crowd on live television, then you would rationally think, well, then he's definitely Nazi enough to do other Nazi type things. But it's like you go look around and nobody could find anything, a single one. And shouldn't that be sort of disqualifying for the he did a Nazi salute observation? No, he obviously didn't, because if he had, you would see more evidence of that in him. But there isn't any. Which means they said he did a Nazi salute because that's what they wanted him to have done in order to justify their hatred of him. And I think this happens a lot in a society where. The right conclusion to draw on almost any issue is predetermined and it's known, which means that really the only thing that you're allowed to engage in is ad hominem, which is. That's what that is, is to call Elon a Nazi. It's to not engage with the argument itself, to just call names and shouldn't we be better than that? And I can't tell. There's just something in that that makes me feel maybe a little bit more comfortable with being misunderstood because the game isn't actually even being played.

[21:32] Michael: Yeah.

[21:32] Matt: Understanding isn't actually being attempted. Another kind of game is being played. And I don't want to play that game. So I can say, you know, you call me a Nazi. Nobody's called me a Nazi that I know of. But if you call me Nazi, it's like, fine.

[21:48] Michael: Yeah. It's like, okay, if you ever want

[21:50] Matt: to talk about the issue.

[21:52] Michael: Yeah. How you feel about, you know, then

[21:54] Matt: I'd be happy to, But I'm not going to engage in schoolyard name calling.

[22:00] Michael: I think it's also. It's definitely helped me better see that kind of stuff better too, because, like, even right now with democratic socials, you know, There's. They'll be asked a direct question about, hey, your party says this and. And then the redirection into, you know, was it democracy at the ballot box and at the. And beyond. There's a. There's a saying that they all say.

[22:25] Matt: Is it the and beyond thing?

[22:26] Michael: That's like.

[22:27] Matt: What are you talking about?

[22:27] Michael: Yeah, it's like. It's like at. At the ballot box and in. I forget that. It's like this whole idea of, like, democracy and being not just at the ballot box, but more in the culture. And it's like. It's like, no, you just. You didn't answer the question. Like, are you wanting to, You know, abolish the Constitution or open, you know, have open borders? And it's. And then. And then they go into this sort of. It's made me spot Reddit rhetoric a lot more as far as, like, it's like. Or even, like, what do you call them? Just planned responses to the things rather than actually engaging with the conversation itself. And I think that's why some people are a little bit more refreshing. Like, JD Vance does this really well in engaging in the actual question and wrestling with the complexities. I think he does that really well, you know, even Trump to some degree, because I think he does dodge things more than I would say J.D. vance does. But he almost ends up saying more than. If you were to have given a direct answer. He actually says more in his rhetoric than he does than he would. If he probably said it out. Right. You know.

[23:47] Matt: Interesting. Yeah.

[23:50] Michael: But did you look it up or. I tried to.

[23:52] Matt: I couldn't find it. The quote, the democracy, the ballot box, and beyond. To infinity and beyond.

[23:59] Michael: Beyond what? Yeah, it's really. So I think that's something that's been really helpful to be able to spot more of the. And also in myself. Like, if I, If I. If I find myself sort of repeating a. A talking point.

[24:22] Matt: Uhhuh.

[24:23] Michael: I get angry with myself. Yeah. Like, no, that's a talking point.

[24:28] Matt: Or you stop and say, wait, what does this actually mean?

[24:31] Michael: Well, even, like, just things like, you know, Jesus died for our sins. Okay, wait, wait, what does that mean?

[24:38] Matt: Right.

[24:39] Michael: Oh, eat my flesh and drink my blood. What does that mean?

[24:43] Matt: Yeah.

[24:43] Michael: Do I really get it? Okay, here's. Here's how far I get it. And then here's where I feel like I'm sort of falling short of understanding what that means.

[24:55] Matt: Right.

[24:56] Michael: And I think there's something healthy in that, in that you can kind of like, you start grasping something and forming a sort of argument around it to kind of help you grasp it. But then you always have this sort of like. Like the shores. You know, there's this. If you can't find that place where it leads to more curiosity, then you're probably dogmatic about something.

[25:20] Matt: That's a great way to put that.

[25:23] Michael: How did I put it? Tell me, Matt, if you're not.

[25:26] Matt: If you're not led to a place of more curiosity, you're probably being dogmatic because dogmatism is to sort of arbitrarily cut off inquisition and say, it is what it is. Stop asking questions. I've told you the answer.

[25:41] Michael: Yeah.

[25:42] Matt: Which is hubristic at the least and probably satanic at the worst. Because that's what Satan does. Right. That's the serpent in the garden that says, I will open your eyes to be like gods. Do you do what I say? Says the same thing to Jesus when he tempts him. I'll give you. I'll give you everything if you do what I say.

[26:02] Michael: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. He's almost like, follow the party line, Jesus, and you'll get. Get everything that you want.

[26:16] Matt: Those are such good questions to chew on, though. Like, you know, your point about Jesus died for your sins. What. What does that mean? You know, I think most of us who have been Christian or sort of in the church, ish, you know, since we were young, which I would venture to say is quite a bit of us, I think we just sort of take it for granted. It's just like, oh, that sounds great. Yeah, I know I'm simple. I get timeouts, I get spankings. You know, it's like, Christ died for my sins. Perfect, let's go. But when you get older, I don't know if it's just getting older or just, you know, maturing.

[26:53] Michael: Maybe.

[26:54] Matt: Maybe maturing or maybe this is just a point in my life where God has decided to put some insight into my heart about it. That insight starts with like, wait, hold up. What are the mechanics of that? How does that even work? What is all this supposed to mean? And you go, I start reading the stories again and I'm like, these stories are crazy in one sense. In another sense, they're so relatable. Yeah. I have seen these things play out in my own life just like this.

[27:25] Michael: Yeah. I think that's. Which is fascinating too, because in some regard you don't need the complexity because I think, like, just even having a simple faith of sort of, you know, Jesus died for my sins, and I accept that.

[27:46] Matt: Yeah. And it's enough.

[27:47] Michael: It's enough. Yeah. But I think there's also this part where it's also an invitation to understand that and to know that better. And I think if you open that box and it's kind of inevitable that you'll go down that, you know.

[28:02] Matt: Well, and in a way, there's more sort of intellectual food for thought there than there even is in, like, a field like philosophy. A field like philosophy tends to have, at least in my experience. It's like, okay, we got to the end of that idea. Yeah, we got to the end of what people think about that idea, you know, but with the Bible and these stories, it's like, there isn't any end. There's. There's infinite depth, it seems.

[28:31] Michael: Yeah. I would say the same with philosophy, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the. It's like the problem of the one in the many, you know, which is basically like, you know, top down or bottom up, you know, it's like. It's like the exploration of things is endless, you know?

[28:47] Matt: Well, I would say that the pursuit of truth, which is what I think the stories in the Bible are about, is inherently philosophic.

[28:59] Michael: Totally.

[29:00] Matt: And it expands the scope of philosophy in. In a way that nothing else can.

[29:06] Michael: Yeah, well, it's both. It's historical, it's philosophical, it's, you know, you know, biological, and that there's actual people experiencing and living this out, you know? Yeah, there's like. It kind of like, encompasses all anthropological, ontological, ontological, biological. All the icles.

[29:28] Matt: All the ickles. Dude, I got the ickles.

[29:35] Michael: Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I've always. I've kind of liked that thought of, like, just the message of Jesus is simple enough for just the guy on the corner, you know, but it's also has so much depth that if you choose to plummet, you know, plummet all. It's like. It's. It's like. It's unsearchable, you know? Yeah, I love that. Which I think this is part of, like, you know, why we named this, you know, Shores of Ignorance and. And kind of what we do every week is like, there is the unknown, and it is way bigger than you can ever, ever, you know, retain or explore.

[30:22] Matt: Yeah.

[30:23] Michael: And I think that's just been such a fun experience. And every time I've told somebody about our podcast and why we named it that, they're like, oh, whoa. It's like. I feel like just the name of our podcast sort of like, it just encourages Conversation?

[30:40] Matt: Yeah.

[30:42] Michael: Yeah.

[30:43] Matt: Well, it's like it admits ignorance at the outset. Like, okay, I can have a conversation with you. You're admitting to be ignorant. Right. When normally that's. That's just a thing somebody tells somebody else to offend them. You know, there's all these freaking cars flying out. Did we talk about that? Yeah. Did that happen since last week?

[31:07] Michael: Yes, since last week. Wow. Yeah.

[31:12] Matt: That was nuts. That Tesla Roadster unveiling event. And what I thought was so funny was what was going on on the Internet after that. People were taking the clips of the Tesla Roadster hopping up in the air, flying over the entire fleet of Teslas, doing a barrel roll and then landing. And then overlaying that with clips of AOC and Gavin Newsom and Ilhan Omar saying things like, elon Musk is the most ignorant billionaire I've ever met. He's low iq, He's a disappointment. He's all of these things. And the contrast was just so stark.

[31:50] Michael: Yeah.

[31:51] Matt: So stark. Yeah. But people call people ignorant when they're trying to put them down. And it's like it's baked into what you and I are doing here every week where we say our starting point is ignorance.

[32:02] Michael: Yeah.

[32:03] Matt: We don't even know what we're ignorant of. But we do kind of have a feel for how to get to the shore. And from there we can explore.

[32:11] Michael: Yeah.

[32:12] Matt: And we can learn and we can grow. And that's an infinite process.

[32:17] Michael: Well, it's kind of a confession that. That we are ignorant and that there is something to be known.

[32:22] Matt: Yeah.

[32:22] Michael: You know, I think that's the part that I think that's kind of like

[32:24] Matt: there's something to be ignorant of. Yeah.

[32:27] Michael: And that you can expand and grow in that knowledge and understanding of the world around you, but you will always be surrounded by the unknown. And I think that's. That's kind of the formation of, like, how you grow as a person. I think that's like, the confession and the pursuit. You.

[32:49] Matt: Yeah, it's how you get to know any other person. You say, I don't know you. I'd like to Tell me about yourself.

[32:59] Michael: Yeah. Which is funny because I asked AI to go through all of our episodes, and it kind of summed up what we've talked about is like, there's four things. Is basically God, love, and suffering. And right now, I forget the fourth thing.

[33:13] Matt: I thought truth was on there.

[33:15] Michael: Truth. Yeah.

[33:15] Matt: Yeah.

[33:16] Michael: Truth, love, God, and suffering. I was like, yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

[33:20] Matt: That's pretty awesome. Those seem worth Talking about.

[33:23] Michael: Yeah, that's good though. I don't know what's been the most impactful for you thing for you in the. In kind of what we've talked about or. Is there anything like any episode or idea that has really kind of rocked you or.

[33:50] Matt: There was one fairly recently about the logo. It's called the Logos and the Lie. And I re listened to it, but I need to re. Listen to it again because I felt like I was on the edge of my thinking and you and I discovered some things together that I don't quite have a handle on yet. And I think it has something to do with, well, ultimately order and rationality. And order has to predate rationality. You do not order things with rationality. You're able to rationalize about things because of the order which exists. And there are multiple, I want to say. I don't want to say levels. It's like concentric circles. There are. Well, maybe if we stick with the island analogy, as the shores of my ignorance expand or as the island of my knowledge expands, so too the shores of my ignorance. As the island of my knowledge expands. That's a different order of magnitude with which I can rationalize about the world. Which I can reason about the world.

[35:06] Michael: Yeah.

[35:11] Matt: And that kind of rocked my world a little bit to know that, you know, because. I guess this is the argument we were trying to lay out is we think that logic has something to do with facts. And I think it has more to do with the landscape in which you are discovering the order. And I think the claim in the biblical text is that the highest order itself is the logic of Jesus. And I haven't quite sorted what that means, but it has life changing impact on me. I can feel it in some way. The other one that came to mind when you were talking about at the beginning of. Closer to the beginning of this conversation about feeling like for most people it's best to get married and have children. There was an episode we did and I just looked it up, it was 232 called Romance, Sex, Orthodoxy. And I found, I think we did this together. But I found myself mostly kind of a little bit surprised that we. We worked from first principles. And I became fairly convinced that the biblical definition of marriage and the imperative to abstain from sexuality outside of marriage is the ultimate way to live. I don't think I was really happy about that as a single guy.

[36:54] Michael: Yeah.

[36:54] Matt: But I. I want to listen to that back to that one again because I remember feeling fairly convicted about the truth of that.

[37:01] Michael: Oh, Interesting.

[37:01] Matt: By. By means of that conversation.

[37:03] Michael: Yeah.

[37:07] Matt: What about you? Any standout?

[37:14] Michael: I think it was fun having the different people on the podcast. And number one that stands out as your dad on the podcast, like, that was something like, just to preserve that, you know, him talking and the way he talks.

[37:28] Matt: Yeah.

[37:28] Michael: And I think that was, like. I think that was really cool. And I think the having Allison on and just her perspective and also how it changes the conversation between you and I. I always thought that was. Those were really.

[37:43] Matt: It was an older one, but one we titled Accessing the Ancient with Alison Vacliffe. I remember really liking that one. That was a while ago,

[37:54] Michael: but it just. It's kind of like a testament to, like, you and I interact in a certain way, and there's kind of a spirit in. In that interaction. But then when you add a third person, it's like, everything kind of changes a little bit. And it's. It's. It's fascinating. And I think it challenges kind of like. And also it sort of invokes new ideas that would not have happened if you and I were just having a podcast. Between you.

[38:24] Matt: Yeah.

[38:24] Michael: Between ourselves.

[38:25] Matt: Right.

[38:26] Michael: And just the value of being able to be in these types of conversations with different people and different ways of thinking and stuff like that is really helpful, I think. You know, so definitely your dad. It's fun having your mom on. Just how shy she was. Like. Or like.

[38:49] Matt: Oh.

[38:49] Michael: And you're like. But your mom's not shy at all. Like, she's such a powerful woman. Yeah. It's like. It's like. No. You know what you're talking about. I've heard you talk about all this stuff, you know, so it's just. That's cool. And our kids had. Having them on the podcast, like, that was really fun.

[39:07] Matt: That was 2019.

[39:12] Michael: Yeah. Wow.

[39:13] Matt: So seven years ago. Or it might have been the very beginning of 2020 before the COVID thing happened. So I think we're due for a.

[39:19] Michael: An update, so that sounds good. I know we're gonna have Emerson on

[39:23] Matt: because they're different creatures.

[39:24] Michael: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[39:26] Matt: You're gonna have Emerson on. What?

[39:28] Michael: Have Emerson on.

[39:29] Matt: Do her.

[39:30] Michael: Her thesis that she's doing for school.

[39:32] Matt: Right.

[39:32] Michael: I forgot we talked to her about doing that.

[39:34] Matt: That'll be cool.

[39:37] Michael: Yeah. So that'd be fun. One to kind of revisit. But I've just loved. I've just really enjoyed being able to, as I'm progressing in certain thoughts and ideas, to then kind of bring them to the table of this podcast.

[39:51] Matt: Yeah.

[39:51] Michael: And pursue them. Publicly, you know, And I think that's been. You know, there's a lot of things that you and I just discuss behind the scenes that we need that we're maybe not as comfortable with, and I think that's totally fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, you know, but. Or maybe we can't even really reach through this format. You know, it's. It's something that you and I have to do solo or something, you know,

[40:16] Matt: something we can't reach. Meaning, like certain ideas or topics that need a more private hearing.

[40:24] Michael: Well, because I think some of the things have to do with things that you and I in our personal life that's definitely more personal that you really can't get to without actually addressing the

[40:33] Matt: specific personal aspects of it. Aspects of it which would not be appropriate.

[40:37] Michael: Would not be appropriate or fair to people in our lives and stuff like that, so. Which I think completely fine. But then you start to kind of extrapolate larger concepts than we. That we can then bring to, you know, that apply more broadly, you know.

[40:53] Matt: Yeah.

[40:54] Michael: So I think that I've really enjoyed. Enjoyed that too. Yeah. But it has been challenging, too, as far as, you know. Okay, wait. If I say this publicly, it's like, I really have to. I really. If I believe this, it's like, it needs to be. It needs to be. It's a part of my life now. You know, someone were to listen to this and say, hey, Michael, I heard you say this, right? Oh, I didn't really think that.

[41:25] Matt: Yeah.

[41:25] Michael: Like what?

[41:27] Matt: Yeah, you have to stand behind yourself.

[41:28] Michael: Yeah. Or even to explain, like. Well, as I was talking that through, this is kind of where I was whenever I first encountered it. And this is what. How. What I came. This is the conclusion I came to as I work through it, you know, because if you were like, to address something that you and I talked about in episode 132, we'd be like, oh, actually, I've kind of grown in that idea. Like, yes, that's what I thought at that time. But here's how I've grown in that idea, you know?

[41:59] Matt: Well, that puts you in an interesting position. Right. Like, because in order for that to be true, you have to be relatively certain that you're being honest at any given time that you're recording.

[42:11] Michael: Oh, true.

[42:14] Matt: Which is. Well, maybe it's a. It's a related to this other thought that occurred to me when you were speaking to Sam, which is that I think one of the things that I have learned to do better over the course of time is figure out how to disentangle ideas, principles, and concepts from their very personal roots in my life. And so I think I used to be, like, scared to go close to those things because I wouldn't want to reveal something about somebody that it would be inappropriate to reveal. Right. I feel a lot more comfortable about that now. And, you know, we've talked about a great many subjects that I think have had very real personal ties into our lives, but we've figured out how to disentangle the moral or the learning the principle, the idea of it, and be able to work on that without pulling in the. The personal attributes that, you know, are so closely at hand.

[43:23] Michael: But I think, like, two topics in particular that are a little bit. I would say I was guarded about. I think you are, too, is like, you know, your marriage and divorce. Like, I feel like you've. You've been a lot more transparent about that. And also, just like with me and Medici, I feel like I've. There's a lot more that I would talk about, you know, and how I think and perceive and about Medici, you know.

[43:47] Matt: Well, and it's not so much that I'm more transparent about it now.

[43:50] Michael: Yeah.

[43:51] Matt: I think it's just that I'm better at being able to talk about what's important without getting myself sort of drugged down into the. My own personal and emotional experience of the thing.

[44:07] Michael: Yeah, yeah. Which is still real, that part. But then the extrapolation is like, it's kind of useful and helpful to be able to like, okay, here's what I think about this. But this applies more broadly in this sense. Not specifically,

[44:25] Matt: but as we talk about that, it occurs to me, like, isn't that such a great skill to have? And shouldn't we all work on having more of it? And maybe that's what, like, university used to be for is like, how do you have public discussions about things that reach far down into the heart? It takes discernment, it takes some wisdom, and it takes some experience with understanding what's transpersonal and what's universal and what is interpersonal and intimate. And being able to talk about interpersonal and intimate things with a way in ways that don't become betrayals or a taboo, you know, in order to elevate the conversation into something which is about transcendent things. And I don't exactly necessarily mean transcendent as spiritual, but I think it's something like that to be able to talk about principled things like morals, like morality itself.

[45:30] Michael: Well, it's Interesting, because, like, as you're saying, this is kind of like. It's like, I think what. Have to be careful with this is because it sounds like you're. You're proposing a more Spock like world.

[45:42] Matt: You know, it didn't feel that way to me.

[45:44] Michael: No, I don't. I. No, I don't think. I don't think so at all. But that's the thing is like, is. But. But the distinction you're making is, is not moving towards a Spock like world.

[45:54] Matt: No.

[45:55] Michael: Because it's like, it's really acknowledging, no, this thing happened. But it's like now it's like I'm kind of like, step. I can. I can step outside of it without denying that the thing happened. And that's how I feel about it.

[46:07] Matt: Yeah. You have to learn how to talk about things with eloquence and tact, which is ultimately a form of respect. Yeah, I think.

[46:16] Michael: Well, it's like, you kind of hear this with arguments of like, you know, really, really extreme cases. Like, you know, it's really hard if something dramatic happens to you and you talk about it with passion. It's like, I think it's hard to sometimes communicate, like, why something is wrong rather than this happened to me. And it is wrong. It's like, no, it's wrong because there's a broader context in which this is wrong and. And the thing. But personal experience is super helpful and useful to see it, but it's like anecdotal versus sort of how this applies on a larger scale. And I'm trying to think of an example of this, but it's kind of escaping me for some reason. I just see different people that have had an experience of something, and then after some time has passed, they're actually able to talk about it in a way that is sort of more meaningful than the experience itself.

[47:29] Matt: Well, I think there's a very important and proper kind of platform for both, because in the one sense. You follow Heather Hying's substack, she has a substack called Natural Discourses. No. Is that right? Natural Selections, one of the two. And Heather's an excellent writer, and I just really admire her a lot. But she has been doing this segment, what would you call it, Category on her substack, where she has invited people to submit anonymous anecdotal stories about the COVID era, and she's been publishing them anonymously for the authors. Yeah. And these stories are gut punching in ways that aren't really about the principles, and they're not about the higher order ideals, they're not about the morality necessarily. It's like they are the real raw gut punching stories of real people's lives. And you learn a lot about those higher order things by taking them as a whole. So I think that's really good. But I also think it's important to know how to talk about things outside of the anecdotal. And that's not a scientific point, it's a, it goes back to. I think it's about tact and it's important to figure out what things mean. And one of the ways that we do that is by figuring out what something means across a collection of instances. In which case you were kind of reviewing with me some of the bullet points of our episodes taken as a whole. We talked about one, I think one was titled Is Metaphor More True than Truth or More True than Facts? Or something like that? That's the case, I think we tried to make there. It's how do you learn something like, and this is, I believe this was Jordan Peterson's example. So how do you learn the meaning of battle? It's like you could go to a battle, engage in a battle, you'll learn something about battle, fight a hundred battles, and write a book about the meaning of battle. It's like you've distilled the essence of what battle is and the underlying anecdotes or specifics of each individual battle matter less. And what matters more is the metaphor of battle that you extract out of experience.

[50:05] Michael: Yeah, definitely would have like a soldier would have a different experience of battle than a general.

[50:12] Matt: Yeah.

[50:12] Michael: You know, it's like, but then you take that times 100, then you can start to kind of like see certain patterns that formulate. That's, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Cuz testimony is hugely impactful.

[50:29] Matt: That's the right word for it. Yeah, testimony.

[50:31] Michael: It's like, you know, this is what happened to me and this is how I experience it. And I watch some of these interviews that they do in Washington park in New York where they'll take some survivors from the October 7th and they'll be talking to people and they'll be like, some people didn't even know that's what happened. And, and they're like, yeah, my friends were taken. Like I luckily got out and we were just there for a dance party basically. And some people were just like, oh, I didn't know that.

[51:08] Matt: Yeah.

[51:09] Michael: Or it makes it more real rather than just sort of like, oh, this thing was happening. But it was really, it was Just a. They were just, you know, fighting against this. The oppressive Israel regime. And it's like. It's like, no, they went to a big ACL concert and killed people.

[51:27] Matt: Yeah.

[51:27] Michael: Like, there was no. There's no. Yeah.

[51:31] Matt: When you say that. I didn't know that. It just struck me. It's like. And also, Jesus is the highest order principle, the order by which rationality is possible, the ultimate abstracted principle. And also, he knows you. He knows the number of hairs on your head. The Bible says he has a jar of all your tears. Everything about you is known.

[52:07] Michael: What's fascinating.

[52:08] Matt: So it's like. It's the personal, interpersonal, anecdotal, knowing, and also the highest order principle.

[52:15] Michael: Well, I think that's the hard thing with Jesus, too, is like. It's like sometimes he's been too abstracted. It's like, no, he came and he bled. Yeah, he suffered and. And he suffered and bled in such a way that it impacted these people who followed him to move into the future and bleed and suffer. You know, it's like whatever he did, he had a huge impact on the people around him. And I think that's the part is like, there's the anecdotal experience of Jesus, you know, that John talks about and Matthew, Mark, and, you know, even Paul and his encounter, you know.

[52:56] Matt: Yeah.

[52:58] Michael: And. And then there's the sort of like. Like, who is Jesus? Like, what. What. What made that. What made him him? You know?

[53:08] Matt: Yeah.

[53:09] Michael: I think the Chosen has done a really good job of sort of bringing out that sort of like, no, this isn't an abstract idea. This is like a. This is a real thing that actually happened and played itself out. You know, here's a guy who is, you know, both God and man, and he's trying to tell his disciples what's going on. And they're like, what? You know, coming to the people of Israel as, like, you know, as prophesied, you know, in the lineage of David. And they're like, don't heal on the Sabbath. He's like, ah, guys, come on. We just don't get it, you know?

[53:54] Matt: Yeah.

[53:55] Michael: And it just seems like there's so much of that, like, you know, sort of truth and reality comes to you and you're like, don't heal on the Sabbath. Like, no, this is, like, bigger than the Sabbath. This is like something that's real and tangible. You know, it's like, well, there's another

[54:10] Matt: way to say that truth and reality comes to you and you're like, stop hurting my feelings.

[54:17] Michael: Yeah, that's not the way this works.

[54:19] Matt: It's not the way this works.

[54:20] Michael: Yeah. The way I want it to work.

[54:25] Matt: Yeah. We. We object, don't we? We object to truth and reality. I mean, we did it a ton during COVID right?

[54:37] Michael: Yeah.

[54:38] Matt: CDC announces that the median age of death is over the average life expectancy and that the Average comorbidity was 6. Six comorbidities. That's the average. The average person who died had six other comorbidities. And this came out very early on. I remember you and I talking about it on the podcast, and nobody was interested in that data. Yeah, they were way more interested in shutting schools down.

[55:07] Michael: Totally. My dad died with. With COVID but he also had four or five of those comorbidities. You know, it's like. It's like. Yeah.

[55:17] Matt: They also put him on a ventilator.

[55:18] Michael: They put him on a ventilator, too. Yeah. So it's just really, you know, absolutely just fascinating on, like, what we. What we. What we're told versus, like, you know, what we believe and what we kind

[55:32] Matt: of take and what we want to be true.

[55:34] Michael: To be true.

[55:35] Matt: Yeah. The truth is so often really inconvenient to our. To our plans, to our designs.

[55:42] Michael: Well, I think that's the hard thing is, like. And I feel like you and I really try hard not to do this, but I would have to say, like, we're just as susceptible to these things as is. Like, we then try to hide behind some sort of. Some of our dogmatic beliefs, you know, as far as, like, you know, oh, if Trump said it, it's wrong. So Trump can never say anything. That's. That's right.

[56:06] Matt: Yeah.

[56:07] Michael: You know, or, you know. You know, the CDC says it's like, well, okay, so the CDC can never be wrong. Or. Or, you know, it's like. It's like, don't do your own research. And it's like, well, in what world does that even. Like, I re.

[56:26] Matt: Encountered that comedian who has that whole bit about don't do your own research. It just used to be called reading. I'm not supposed to read. And he goes. He's like. It's like, I've told. If I told a friend I'm thinking about buying a new car, and he goes, don't look into it. Well, how would I know what car to buy? Ask the salesperson. He's the expert.

[56:49] Michael: He's the expert, so good. Don't look into it. Yeah. Don't shop around.

[57:03] Matt: I mean, we really are, us humans, we are insane in so many ways.

[57:10] Michael: Well, even I think that's one thing that's really stuck out to me over the. Over the years of. Of looking into these things, you know, whether it be Covid or different religions or politicians. And it's like there is a message on the surface, and sometimes those messages on the surface are accurate or as accurate as they can be as far as, like, to simplify something, you know? But then once you start digging underneath that, like, that's kind of where either unravels or sort of solidifies or you actually start to engage maybe some of the gray areas around those certain topics, you know? You know, whether it be like, you know, because you see this. Like, you know, this. Those bumper sticks, and it says coexist. And so as if all religions are the same and have the same ideas and principles, it's like, is that about

[58:04] Matt: religion specifically or about politics? And that's.

[58:07] Michael: That's mostly religion because it has, like, all the different symbols of the religions

[58:10] Matt: and stuff like that, Right? Yeah.

[58:12] Michael: And it might kind of expand outside of that, but it's specifically more, I think, religious than anything else.

[58:18] Matt: Well, that just strikes me as incredibly naive.

[58:21] Michael: Yeah, totally. And I think that's. My point is, like, it's like. Well, on the surface, that sounds really great. Hey, everyone, let's just all get along.

[58:28] Matt: Kumbaya.

[58:28] Michael: Kumbaya.

[58:29] Matt: Yeah, but.

[58:31] Michael: But once you get down to, like, what each of those actually believe, and they're the fundamentals. They're all so different. It's not the same reality. They're not proposing the same reality. So if you're proposing different realities, how can you coexist if you're living in different realities?

[58:48] Matt: Yeah.

[58:49] Michael: And even the person who's saying Kumbaya, it's like, hey, don't you know there's people out there that want to kill you?

[58:57] Matt: Mm.

[58:58] Michael: What do you do about that person? Do you coexist with that person? How do you identify that person? It's like, there's a certain part, like, no, it's there. Yeah, let's get along. But we also recognize there are threats and also that we also all don't think the same thing or believe the same things.

[59:22] Matt: That doesn't seem like a very mainstream position anymore to recognize that we. We don't all think the same things or believe the same things.

[59:30] Michael: Well, I think that the mainstream position is sort of like, let's all get along, but let's get along. If you. If you follow my belief system, it's almost become a religious sort of.

[59:42] Matt: This is what gadsad calls suicidal empathy.

[59:45] Michael: Oh, yeah. You have to explain it to me. But I kind of. I kind of know what that is.

[59:49] Matt: It's just occurring to me, this whole coexist concept. It's like the Kumbaya man is saying, well, I'll be empathetic to the people who want to kill me. And that's suicide. That's suicidal empathy.

[60:02] Michael: Yeah.

[60:03] Matt: I mean, Gad Saad talks about it at the larger scale. I think, you know, it's like the west wants to be empathetic to Islam. Problem is Islam wants to kill the West.

[60:15] Michael: Yeah.

[60:16] Matt: So the West's empathy becomes suicide.

[60:19] Michael: Well, I think even more of a dramatic example of this is when you see signs like Queers for Palestine. It's like, do you understand if you go to Palestine, they will kill you? How can you be for something that actually wants to kill you? It does not make any sense at all.

[60:36] Matt: Yeah. Your empathy becomes suicide.

[60:38] Michael: Yeah. So that makes sense. Because I think too, is like, if you start to encounter that, it's like, okay, okay, what. What is real? What do I believe? Because I can't just believe that we just need to coexist or that some ideas are actually better than others. You know, it's like. Or some of the ideas I believe in are actually in contrast to each other. Like Queers for Palestine. Like. Like. No, that those two statements, those two subjects do not, like, coexist. Right. They're actually antithetical.

[61:17] Matt: Yeah. Well, I guess it does require you to start figuring out what it is that you believe and what you're willing to pay in order to believe it.

[61:29] Michael: Yeah.

[61:32] Matt: Which leads me back to the Christian story. Because the Christian story, the gospel, is that this is so true, that God himself paid with his life. And then he said to each and every one of his followers, basically, you will all pay with your life too, for believing this. And I'm not sure that that's exactly a statement about persecution. I think it's a statement about what happens inside of you when you believe the truth that is laid out in the gospel. And what happens is summed up in Paul's statement that I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

[62:23] Michael: Yeah. It's like you actually might die physically, but that's inconsequential. Yeah. But you actually will die to yourself. To yourself.

[62:32] Matt: Yeah. And gladly so.

[62:37] Michael: Because, like, there's a new. A new creation for you. Like.

[62:39] Matt: Yeah.

[62:40] Michael: In order for me to form something new in you, you have to die to all that came before that.

[62:45] Matt: Yeah.

[62:46] Michael: And that is a excruciating death. Because you believe. We all believe certain things that are not true. And you have to come to terms with those things. You know, whether, like, oh, I'm a good person. You're like, are you. What makes you believe you're a good person? What standard are you. Are you. Are you measuring yourself against? And then, like, once you name that standard that doesn't matter what standard that is, you're going to experience how far you fall short of that. It doesn't matter what standard you measure yourself to.

[63:20] Matt: Yeah.

[63:21] Michael: So it's like. So once you start claiming you're a good person, it's like you don't define what that means to be a good person. You can just arbitrate.

[63:30] Matt: For you to believe that, you have to leave it undefined.

[63:33] Michael: Yeah. It's like you have to almost believe it in a blind faith kind of way where, you know, faith in Jesus is not a blind faith. It's like you. You actually acknowledge and see, you know, and name, like, oh, wow, I do fall short.

[63:50] Matt: Well, I was just looking this up because what does it mean when it says that a seed dies? It doesn't seem like the end. It seems like the beginning of transformation. The seed dies, which is to say it's planted and transforms. It ceases to be in the form that it's in and becomes something completely unpredictable from the point of view of somebody who has never seen that seed before,

[64:29] Michael: I guess. What point are you kind of getting at? Because I think I can kind of go a couple different ways with that, if that makes sense.

[64:38] Matt: Well, I was just thinking about. Death and how we traditionally think of death as the end of something, and there's something else beyond. Maybe you believe that, maybe you don't. But death, something ceases to exist, you know, but the death that you and I are talking about, which is, I think, based on the gospel, isn't so much something ceasing to exist as it is something new being grown, something new emerging and having no need of the prior form. Like the butterfly has no need of the cocoon.

[65:27] Michael: Yeah. Which is fascinating because it works in the same way. Like. Like, now this concept makes a lot of sense to me, but as I was going through the experience, it didn't make sense to me. Like, I was more experience the death part of things than the life part of things. It's sort of like, you know, the. The worm is, you know, doing the whole cocoon thing. You know, it's like it doesn't really know what is on the other side of that. You Know, but it's like, in a sense, you're kind of going through a transformation, and it's like a death into something new.

[66:04] Matt: Right.

[66:04] Michael: And it's like you can't understand what's on the other side of it,

[66:09] Matt: which is the. What a powerful metaphor. You know, the. The worm spins itself a cocoon and then turns into goo, and then that goo turns into a completely different form.

[66:26] Michael: Yeah.

[66:26] Matt: With wings that if you touch a butterfly's wings, you ruin it. It's that fragile. Yeah. That's crazy.

[66:39] Michael: But it does make so much sense. It's like when you're in the middle of something, especially whenever, you know, you. You haven't been. If you. If you haven't faced the judge, you know, like a thief, and they're getting away with everything. It's like they think they're powerful. They think they're a God, and then they get caught, and then they go stand before a judge. You know, there's very few really cocky people in front of a judge, and then a judge sends you to prison. I've seen these kids get off the bus. Like, I work for Texas Bar and Criminal justice, and the look on their eyes is, what the fuck? I don't know what I'm doing here. I've sat in interviews with these people, and they're just like, my life's over. Basically, how. How it feels. And you can tell people have been there a couple times because it's a different ex. It's a different experience with them. But the ones that are brand new to something like that, it's like. It's kind of like their life is over. And that's a hard. Like, you're. Because before, like.

[67:49] Matt: Like their goo. They're going into the goo state.

[67:51] Michael: Yeah. They're going to the goose state. Because before you were a God, you know. You know, maybe you got away with certain things for a period of time.

[67:58] Matt: Yeah.

[67:59] Michael: And then this one time again, there's so many different types of crimes, but it's like in this one time, you didn't get away with it, and now you. You face a reckoning of your decisions. Like, that's hard. It's like. Do you deny it? You know?

[68:14] Matt: Yeah, it's like.

[68:16] Michael: Like afterwards, you go back out and do it again, you know, it's like. I don't know, it just. It's just kind of fascinating to me is like, that sort of reaction to whenever you do face a judge, you know, in this sense, a literal judge, and then you face the consequences of it, which is you Know like Jesus talks about, it's like it's actually the consequences of your life is death because you have violated reality. And Jesus says, hey, but actually if you follow me, there's life, you know, and you come out of this cell and it's like, okay, here's a new life. What are you going to do with it? You know, are you going to, are you going to continue to follow me, you continue to look to me, you know? Or are you going to return to your old way? And if you return to your old way, you end up right back where you were, you know,

[69:09] Matt: I was trying to remember. I watched this several part. I want to say it was like a YouTube series where this person went to interview this woman who was in jail for killing, I want to say like her boyfriend and child, something like this. And then starting a love affair in prison with one of the guards and convincing that guard to break her out. This woman was a real manipulator and a psychopath. But by way of interviewing her they also interviewed a bunch. It was a women's maximum,

[69:52] Michael: maximum security,

[69:53] Matt: security penitentiary and they interviewed a bunch of the other women in there. And it was really interesting to see through these interviews how some of the women were holding on to ignorance of their own position. Like I really don't understand why I'm in here. They were not owning it. They were not coming to terms with reality. And there were some other women who were like way had come to terms with reality. Yeah, they're like, I'm never leaving this place. And also I know if they ever let me out, I would just go right back to doing what I was doing. Like they came to terms with that reality. And then the main woman was kind of psychopathic and she was not conformed to any reality other than the one that was instrumental in every individual conversation she was having. But I just bring all that up because I guess it's to say once we have been brought before the judge in a sense knocked off of our God pedestal, we actually have choice about how we compose ourselves once we've been brought to the goo state, to the down low. It's like what are you going to do with yourself in that reality?

[71:15] Michael: Yeah, it's like you have a choice to either return back to the worm or transform into a butterfly.

[71:21] Matt: Yeah.

[71:22] Michael: Because it's interesting that you brought that one point where I don't even know why I'm in here. I mean, what did I do?

[71:27] Matt: Right?

[71:28] Michael: It's like you killed somebody or whatever

[71:31] Matt: it is that they did. Yeah, but it isn't. It isn't possible that the person doesn't know what they did. It's like the state went to great lengths to define exactly what you did.

[71:41] Michael: Yeah.

[71:42] Matt: And to convict you of it.

[71:43] Michael: And we're not talking about edge cases where the person actually didn't do it, but most people in prison are there for.

[71:48] Matt: For the reason that it is stated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess my point is even more brought low. We can refuse to conform to reality. I don't know what moral to take away from that.

[72:07] Michael: Yeah. It's just really fascinating. The. I really. I think this. This prison metaphor or example is really good, is because there's a lot of reactions that you can have to. That is sort of like, wow, I really messed up. I need to change. How do I change?

[72:29] Matt: Yeah.

[72:30] Michael: And then you're on a. Like a sort of a progression or a path to change, you know, or denial, which is basically, it's everybody else's fault, the world is wrong. Or I'm. You know, it's like, who are you to judge me? You know?

[72:50] Matt: Yeah.

[72:51] Michael: And. And then you kind of just end up always being back in the same place you were. It's like, well, life's just unfair. Like, I. I have bad luck. You know, it's like. It's like no life is offering you a chance, but you have to pursue that. You have to say yes to it.

[73:12] Matt: Well, I think the thing that is striking me about it is maybe it's helpful to see the extreme of a prison. But all of these things are going on in my heart all the time. I'm making excuses for things. I'm projecting blame. I'm casting dispersions and distractions by pointing out another person's guilt rather than actually looking at my own. And again, this is where it's just like, I find the Bible to be so relatable because it addresses all of these things. You know, it says to take the log out of your own eye before pointing the speck out in your brother's. That's all of that?

[73:50] Michael: Yeah. Like, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

[73:54] Matt: Yeah.

[73:54] Michael: Yeah.

[73:56] Matt: There is not one who is righteous. All are evil. And you read that. Wait, what? Evil?

[74:04] Michael: Yeah.

[74:05] Matt: You're calling me evil? I'm not evil. I'm a good person. And then if you really want to pursue it, you're back to like, okay, define good person. Oh, shit. I fall short on every definition I can come up with.

[74:19] Michael: Yeah. Or even in that. I think sometimes you start to. Because I Do this, too. Even to this day, it's sort of

[74:25] Matt: like

[74:27] Michael: I wanted to keep defining it, in the realm of which I've come out a good person, you know?

[74:32] Matt: Yeah.

[74:32] Michael: And so I kind of keep having to redefine it because it's like, you know, like, I've always made this argument where, like, Allison has always been the quicker to be like, hey, Michael, I'm really sorry I've been acting this way. I'm like, fuck, I was the one who's acting that way. You know, I should be the one apologizing first. Yeah, you beat me to it. You know, it's like. But it's.

[74:54] Matt: You owe me an apology for apologizing first.

[74:56] Michael: Exactly. But there's something about it. Or it could be like, yeah, you should feel that way. It's like, whoa, wait a minute. It's like all of a sudden, like, I'm in the right and you're wrong. And it's like it's almost never the case. It's sort of like, well, even if

[75:12] Matt: it is the case, it's not going to stay that case for very long.

[75:14] Michael: No, no, no. It's. It's. Yeah. You definitely have to, like, be able to come to terms with how far you fall short of whatever. Whatever judge that you have in your life. You know, there's only one really outlet for that. It's like, yeah, because then you just try to become a better person. You listen to that judge, and you try to become a better person. It's like, oh, my gosh, you will be annihilated because you will have to redefine what it means to be a good person if you really. If you really pursue that, because that's. It's an impossible task.

[76:01] Matt: Yeah.

[76:06] Michael: Well, 300. What do you. Yeah. What do you.

[76:09] Matt: What do you. What's your. Any final thoughts about.

[76:17] Michael: No, I'm excited. It's like seven years, 300 episodes. It's like. Like, I'm 48 years old. We started this when I was 41. You were 39.

[76:28] Matt: Were you 41 in 2018?

[76:31] Michael: Feel.

[76:32] Matt: 17 years.

[76:36] Michael: Oh, I guess. No, I'm 48. So it would have been, I guess, maybe count 49. I'll be.

[76:42] Matt: We're going into our ninth year of this, doing this.

[76:46] Michael: I don't know. Now I'm confused. I. 41 or 42 when we started this, you know, it's like. But I'm excited to be 72. And looking back on episode 21. 43.

[76:59] Matt: Yeah, me too.

[77:02] Michael: Yeah. What are your thoughts?

[77:05] Matt: I'm excited to know you at 72.

[77:07] Michael: Oh, dude. Aren't they crazy? Wow.

[77:12] Matt: I think my thoughts are. I just feel really thankful for it. I feel thankful for whatever it is. I don't want to say it's discipline that's kept us going this long. It's more just love.

[77:24] Michael: Curiosity.

[77:25] Matt: Love and curiosity. We love doing it. We're curious. It has proven to be sort of endlessly helpful in my life and I can't wait to see where it goes. And I can't really imagine any reason we would ever stop, but I hope that this continues for quite some time and even enters into some new seasons of its own. I don't know what that means, but we've been going just one on one conversation for a good year at least. Maybe bringing back some other guests or switching the format up a little bit. I don't know. I don't want to. I actually don't really want to impose anything onto it. I just want it to organically become what it needs to be in our lives and to whoever it happens to be speaking to in the world at large. So I'm excited to continue this journey and to continue expanding the island of my knowledge and discovering the shores of my ignorance.

[78:29] Michael: Totally. Yeah. I just love how it's like. This is like really like kind of like impacted so many different parts of my life, you know, as far as, like, you know, at work or at the sauna or whatever it might be is like. It's like sometimes I feel like our conversation is continued.

[78:53] Matt: Yeah.

[78:53] Michael: In so many different areas. But this is kind of like a. Somewhat of a nexus of some of that. A lot of that, that, that, that kind of moves out from this, you know.

[79:03] Matt: It's awesome.

[79:04] Michael: Yeah, that's good.

[79:06] Matt: Well, cheers to that.

[79:07] Michael: Yeah, cheers.

[79:08] Matt: Cheers to all you out there.

[79:09] Michael: Yeah.

[79:09] Matt: Thank you on this journey with us.

[79:10] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[79:12] Matt: Much love to you.

[79:13] Michael: Totally. And we'd love to hear from you guys. I don't know how you do that, but, like, do we have anything?

[79:19] Matt: The Internet.

[79:19] Michael: The Internet, Yeah, I guess on our website. Can you. Can you comment on a website?

[79:24] Matt: No.

[79:24] Michael: Oh, well.

[79:26] Matt: But you can maybe somebody who's like

[79:28] Michael: a programmer that knows about websites could maybe put comments on there.

[79:33] Matt: You can comment on Spotify.

[79:34] Michael: That's true. Yeah.

[79:35] Matt: You can DM us on Instagram or Facebook or X. Actually, I think I'm private everywhere right now, but maybe I should become public again. Ooh. Wow. I mean, really, it's 2026. You have AI. You could probably find my home address if you wanted to write me a letter. Send me a postcard.

[79:58] Michael: Come protest in front of Mask.

[80:00] Matt: Yeah, protest in front of my house. We do have stand your ground laws here.

[80:05] Michael: Though I will say so. Be careful.

[80:12] Matt: Okay? Well, awesome shores of end. Rinse out.

[80:19] Michael: Out. See you guys. Love.