The Neighbor in the Turn Lane

[0:20] Matt: Okay,

[0:20] Michael: all right,

[0:21] Matt: here we go. Here

[0:22] Michael: we go. To the shores.

[0:23] Matt: Cheers. To the shores. What is that? That quote that says something like there are years where weeks happen and weeks where years happen.

[0:37] Michael: Oh yeah,

[0:38] Matt: something like that. I

[0:39] Michael: always hear that associated with bitcoin, so.

[0:41] Matt: Oh yeah. I feel like the last week a lot happened.

[0:45] Michael: Yeah, like true.

[0:46] Matt: The. The just information coming fast and kind of scary.

[0:55] Michael: Yeah. Just also I think just for me, whenever it starts getting cooler too, I start to realize like, oh, another season has passed and how much I sometimes almost anticipating the newer the next season without really being in the last season. Like it's just like it's just starting to roll faster and faster. It's like, oh, oh, cool. Okay, fall's here and then I'm like, oh, and then it's going to be over before I know it.

[1:30] Matt: Right.

[1:30] Michael: And then it's going to be summer and then it's going to be a fall. It's like, oh gosh. It just keeps coming. It keeps

[1:38] Matt: coming until you die.

[1:39] Michael: Totally.

[1:40] Matt: More life. Well, I thought it was interesting. I mean, you know, last week we talked about AI and the possibility of living in a world in which you can't perceive what is real and what isn't real, at least in the digital world. And I found myself thinking a lot about that in the last week. Like started with. Did you kind of follow this prepper thing that was going around?

[2:04] Michael: Yeah, I did

[2:06] Matt: and it was. It was like kind of scary there for a second because like apparently they put the military put missile launchers of some kind, Avenger missile launchers around Mar A Lago

[2:20] Michael: missile defense systems.

[2:21] Matt: Yeah. And people were saying that like a bunch of these European countries were issuing, you know, you need to have food and water stocked for anywhere from like three days to 90 days. And then there was the story about Hegseth P. Hegseth announcing that all of the military bases needed to be able to be

[2:39] Michael: self sufficient

[2:40] Matt: for 90 days. Yeah. With electricity, food, water. And it kind of turned out that a lot of it was unrelated things. So a lot of these European orders to. For people to prepare were like old. These have been on the books for a long time. There was like the UK was. Theirs was new. But apparently these kinds of things are not uncommon. But I think a bunch of things got conflated and we're also kind of conspiracy minded these days. I think that we're all looking for the man behind the curtain with every story and Then. And then that plane crashed and that got woven into it, that Learjet 60 that was carrying actually an Austinite from Austin to the Bahamas. Absolute devastating tragedy.

[3:36] Michael: Totally.

[3:37] Matt: So difficult to watch and listen to the air traffic control recording. But then people almost immediately were conspir. Conspiring.

[3:46] Michael: Conspiratorial.

[3:47] Matt: Conspiratorial,

[3:49] Michael: yeah,

[3:50] Matt: conspiring about that. And what else happened? The midterms.

[3:58] Michael: Midterms

[3:59] Matt: that happened. And there's a lot of conspiring, conspiratorial going on around there. But I just kept thinking with each one of these things, one of the things that people were being conspiratorial about is, is this AI is what I'm seeing AI. Um, because we don't know. This gets gotten to where you can't really tell.

[4:21] Michael: Yeah, yeah. It's almost like to the point where you kind of like, kind of feel like you just want to turn it all off, you know? I know,

[4:31] Matt: I know.

[4:33] Michael: Because there's only so many things I can be concerned with at any one time.

[4:37] Matt: Well, I think I've said this in the past. I think one of the problems with this digital information age world that we live in, social media world that we live in, it's like, I don't think we are designed for or. Or capable of perceiving this many other people that we will not and will never meet. You know, we're just. We're see. Even if they're real.

[5:08] Michael: Yeah.

[5:08] Matt: We're seeing all these people that we will never be in the same room with, you know, even like news events, whether it's the war in Ukraine or in Gaza or in Iran, if there is a war in Iran. I don't know. It's so strange. Kind of thought about it today. I was like, I don't think I've seen any pictures actually of the war, so called war in Iran. And I say so called because I'm like, is it even a war? I mean, the only reason I know about it is because of like, podcasters, I guess. Um, but anyway, being concerned with all of these things that are happening in places that we will never go, most likely, you know, I don't think we're designed for that. I don't think we're. I don't think we're doing well with it either.

[5:53] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what to think about most of that stuff. I just. But I'm also a curious person, so I'm always kind of like, I. I'll dabble in all the little Things that are kind of brought up, but I kind of get to a point where I'm like, okay, I'm kind of done with that. I've got enough kind of information that I. That I need to at least to kind of get a sort of grasp of it, but not deep dive into it. But, yeah, I think just. That's the hard thing is like, what. What should I. What do I need to care about? I mean, there's. I think that's a hard thing to sort of discern, you know, and. And, you know, obviously it's like I need to be concerned about my kids, my wife, my business. Like, those are kind of high priorities. And then the communities I'm involved with, and it's like, does that leave much room for much else, honestly?

[6:49] Matt: Right.

[6:50] Michael: You know, and also concerned about you, too, Matt.

[6:52] Matt: Oh, thank you. I get to be in your circle of concern.

[6:55] Michael: Totally. So, you know, I think that's. I think that we also get in trouble when we get outside of our circle of concern. You know, it's like, do take on too many things and not what's kind of maybe more present to us or even. I feel like sometimes we can even hide behind our concerns. It almost becomes like, even though it might be a good concern, it becomes sort of more of a. A place to hide from what you should actually be addressing.

[7:29] Matt: Yeah. I don't know exactly how this fits, but this quote from C.S. lewis came to mind. It's from the Screwtape Letters, which I actually just bought a cop a new copy of because I want to reread it. I haven't read it since college, probably, but for anyone who doesn't know, the Screwtape letters is a. A fictional set of letters written by a senior demon to a junior demon that he's mentoring. So he says the. So the senior. Is demon the right word? Oh, here. Here we go. It's summarized in the letter. The senior. Yeah, Senior demon Screwtape advises his nephew and junior tempter Wormwood on how to manipulate their human patient. And he says, do what you will. There is going to be some benevolence as well as some malice in your patient's soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbors, whom he meets every day, and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary.

[8:40] Michael: Oh, that's really good.

[8:42] Matt: Isn't that good?

[8:42] Michael: Yeah.

[8:44] Matt: And it's like, gosh, you can really see that in stark contrast, in stark relief in the current world, where we all are obsessed with things that we can't do anything about, people we will never meet.

[9:02] Michael: Yeah. Even just in understanding the concentric circles that kind of go out from what you should be concerned about. It's like, even your business can take over your concern for your family. You know, it's like. And so you kind of take that out to a larger context of, like, you know, concern of Gaza. It's like, okay, well, are you taking care of the people around you? You know, and not that again. It's like, it's not bad to be concerned about, you know, that conflict or whatever, and to. To be curious and to participate in whatever way that, you know, you're looking at it.

[9:40] Matt: Yeah.

[9:42] Michael: So I think. I love that part. It's like, even. Even good things can be distractions, which is kind of. Which is kind of wild. And also the whole. That idea we were talking about, that. How did you say, like, the. Or. How did Screwtape put it? The. It's like you feel good about how righteous you are or something like that. And. And. And then. But you're kind of a jerk to those who are closest to you. How did that say that

[10:13] Matt: in what I just read? Thus, the malice becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary. Is that the part you were thinking of?

[10:20] Michael: Yeah.

[10:22] Matt: The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbors, whom he meets every day, and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference to people he does not know.

[10:35] Michael: Which is interesting, because I. I feel like that kind of has to do with, like, you know, just the whole idea of, like, the LGBTQ community, like, supporting Palestine. It's like, this sort of benevolence. But they would throw anybody in that letter group off of. Off a roof. Like, there's no but. But it's just like, so how can you have this sort of benevolence towards a group that actually hates you?

[11:00] Matt: Yeah, well, I think that's

[11:02] Michael: why.

[11:05] Matt: I think that's why he says the benevolent benevolence becomes largely imaginary, because if any of them went there, they'd find out that they could not be benevolent, they'd have to protect themselves, but they're not going there, so they never have to find that out. So the benevolence is just imaginary?

[11:23] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Or just. Even just in the. Having to face the complexities of, know, supporting Russia or Ukraine, it's not just as Easy as putting a flag in your biography. It's like, no, it's a lot more complex when you're on the ground and you're dealing with people that are both Ukrainian and Russian and they have different views of what is actually happening and going on. It's like, yeah, it's just. It's just interesting, but from our distance, we can, you know,

[11:58] Matt: make it very black and white.

[11:59] Michael: Make it very black and white?

[12:00] Matt: Yeah. So what's the alternative to that? I mean, I think it's what you were saying is like, well, okay, what should I be focusing on? What should I be concerned with?

[12:14] Michael: Yeah.

[12:16] Matt: And I think the world, the media, the news, the culture is telling us to be concerned and focused on these very. These things that are very far away. And I think the response to that should be, you know, I don't have to. I don't have to care about that. You know, what I do have to care about is my children, which is also an inversion, because much of modern culture would like to say, actually, the state should care about your children and you should not weigh in.

[12:46] Michael: Yeah. It's almost like the abdication of all responsibility, and then irresponsibility is a. Is a false responsibility, something that you actually have no control over. It's like you have a responsibility for this conflict where you have no actual impact. And. And. But where you actually do have impact and control, or, you know, as much control as you have.

[13:12] Matt: I mean, I don't know if this is the case, like, but it seems like. I'm not claiming that it is this way, that there's somebody who's trying to manipulate people, but if you were trying to manipulate people, you would do well to get them to care more about things they have no control over than things they do have control over. Because if you place their attention and care there, you basically take them out of the game. You know, they don't have an effect on anything.

[13:37] Michael: Yeah.

[13:38] Matt: And thereby become manipulable in order to do the one thing that you want them to do. The only thing that you want them to do, really, which is to give you more power, whether that's through voting or whatever it may be.

[14:02] Michael: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, but you think about it, we all are sort of, like, trying to garner people's attention, whether it be podcasts or influencers or it's like, hey, care about what I care about.

[14:15] Matt: Right.

[14:16] Michael: Listen to me. Even probably for us, right? It's like, well, we're not really, like, seeking an audience, but sort of.

[14:24] Matt: I've Been noticing that more and more, actually. Maybe it's as things kind of heat up and start moving really quickly, maybe it causes it to come out more. But I have noticed that more and more of the content people post on social media seems designed to increase engagement. The content of it is sort of irrelevant, you know, like, there's more and more people on X who start their posts with like a siren emoji and the word breaking in all uppercase. And you're like, oh, I better read that. You know, you click on it, you read it, and then you're like, oh, this doesn't actually seem true. Or it's like something that happened months ago. Or, you know, it's just engagement farming.

[15:14] Michael: Yeah. The ones that bug me the most are sort of like, do you. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? And they'll show a picture, like, I don't know, like, what is it that you're seeing? You

[15:21] Matt: didn't say what you're seeing.

[15:22] Michael: Totally. It's like annoying. It's like,

[15:24] Matt: yeah,

[15:24] Michael: it's like, I feel like those are kind of fallen in the way of like a Nairobi. And Prince has emailed you to give you money. No, I've seen that. That was early. Late to like late 90s type of fishing expedition for. For money. But, yeah. I don't know, man. It's. I think that's a hard thing is like, what do you give your attention to? That's such a. I mean, even you and I were talking about it over dinner was just like, what are. What are we giving our attention to? And then I had brought up John Piper had given this little sermon. I didn't know who that was. And you'd also watched it also. And. And it's just so important, like, what you give your attention to as far as, like,

[16:14] Matt: yeah,

[16:16] Michael: what am I doing with my life? Like.

[16:19] Matt: So wait, you hadn't heard of John Piper before? I

[16:22] Michael: heard John Piper, just not that. Not

[16:23] Matt: that particular sermon.

[16:24] Michael: And I never thought. I never knew that was. That was like, I didn't have a visual of him. Yeah. When he was given that. So,

[16:32] Matt: yeah. Just to summarize his point in that, for anyone listening, John Piper makes the case. He talks about the news of, I think, a missionary couple dying. And he said people talked about how it was a tragedy. And he said that wasn't a tragedy. You know what the tragedy is, is the couple that works until they're 50 and then retires and buys a boat and moves to a lake house and just spends the days on the boat. Drinking cocktails, that's a tragedy. It's like saying you have things to do, your life is for something. He's making the point, what are you living for? Because we're all going to die. The, the people who want to just get to the end so they can relax, that's the tragedy. It's pretty convicting.

[17:23] Michael: It really is convicting. I remember up the verse after I watched it. I was sitting there, I was like, oh man. It's like. Cuz there's this part of me that I really just want to like get some land and just go away from everybody and just build stuff and develop the land as far as like build a barn and you know, tractor and all that kind of stuff. Raise chickens,

[17:47] Matt: tractor,

[17:49] Michael: drive a tractor. And I was just like, but, but what, what am I, what am I living for? Like what. To what purpose am I, am I here for? I feel like, I feel like that's something I'd like to explore a little bit more of. Like what's, like what's my purpose? But what my. What could I give myself to that if I died doing it, that would be like, that was worth it. I think there's a part of me that I see that like I'm kind of over. I'm kind of exaggerating right now. So just, just kind of take that into consideration. But I feel like there's a part of me that's just kind of dying every day. And none of these things are bad, like watching Netflix or getting up, going to work and coming home from work. And I just do the things. And none of those things are bad in and of themselves. But it's just sort of like I do the routine and then. But if you just kind of carry that out till you're dead, it's sort of like, oh, I just carried out a routine and then I died. Like. Like what am I moving towards? And obviously that's a little bit of an exaggeration because it's like I have a family and my wife and business and it's like I'm. I'm involved in things, but at the same time I can kind of see. It's almost like there's parts of me that are dying because it's like I'm not fully committed to a vision of some sort.

[19:20] Matt: Yeah.

[19:22] Michael: Or even that, you know, the vision I did have is it needs to be renewed.

[19:29] Matt: Well, I think it's hard because when we ask ourselves questions like what is my purpose? What am I moving toward? You know, what would make my life Worth living. I don't think the problem is so much that we don't have answers to those things. I think when we answer them inside of ourselves, we shy away from them. And we say, oh, I don't know if I really want to do that. You know, I think I'd rather just have the cocktails on the beach while I'm, you know, why do I have to go do that hard thing, that scary thing, that thing that makes me feel vulnerable and ashamed? Because I think mostly when you look at your own purpose, you feel all of those things, and you feel those things because your purpose is higher than you,

[20:13] Michael: and it means sacrifice.

[20:14] Matt: Yeah.

[20:15] Michael: Like you can't have a purpose without sacrifice.

[20:19] Matt: I was listening to an interview with Peter Kreeft. He was talking about how.

[20:25] Michael: Who's Peter Kreeft?

[20:26] Matt: He's an author. Catholic. Catholic theologian. An author. He's awesome. Apparently, he's. He's. I think he's still alive. He's in his 80s. He's written more books than years he's been alive.

[20:41] Michael: Oh, geez.

[20:42] Matt: It's unbelievable. Yeah. But he was talking about this problem of, like, we all know through our own experience that when we sin in the long run, it makes us very unhappy. And we all know that when we sanctify ourselves or when we are sanctified, there is nothing better than that. And yet we choose the sin all the time. And he goes, the reason is because we're insane. Ever since the fall, we're insane. There's something wrong with our heads. We need to be saved. And I found that to be very compelling because, you know, Paul struggles with that. And he says, what I want to do, I do not do, and what I don't want to do, I do. It's like it's an issue with our want, with our desire. We want the wrong things. It's crazy. What's that Teresa Villa quote? It's not about wants. But she says, oh, God, I do not love you. It is, oh, God, I do not love you. I do not even want to love you. But I want to want to love you. Which I think is so beautiful because it's searching her own doubts into her own lack of desire for the right thing till she finds just enough of a spark to say, well, it's a want for a want, which is something.

[22:06] Michael: I think it's hard to want something because once you want something, it also becomes your judge, you know, and you. You see how. How far. How far short you fall of that, it's easier to not want Something or to want something that's so abstract that you're not really accountable to it at all. Like, it kind of comes back to that, you know, C.S. lewis quote from Screw Tip Letters. It's like, I want, you know, freedom in Palestine or something like that. It's like, okay, well, you. It's so abstract that you. You're not held accountable to anything other than you just kind of want something that you have no idea what that even means. So I think that's the hard thing is like. But once you start kind of like wanting something that is. That takes effort from you, it's like there's a certain of accountability that that kind of comes along with it. It's like. It's like, okay, what are you doing about it? It's like, okay, well, you know, you know, my neighbor needs their yard mode or something like that. Or, you know, it's like, okay, well, I want to. I want to sew into my community around me. It's like, okay, well, there's needs all around and there's me. More needs than you can ever even take on. So it's like you're going to. I think that's the part that you're going to find face is like whenever you kind of, you know, take on something like that is. Is. It's way bigger than you could ever even sufficiently engage with it.

[23:48] Matt: Which is, I think that's why I say your purpose is higher than you. You can't. In a sense, you can't reach it. Like, you were made to be so much more than you are that you will always be falling.

[24:02] Michael: Yeah. It's almost easier to just keep making a world smaller and smaller so that it becomes less obvious that you. It

[24:09] Matt: appears. Yeah.

[24:10] Michael: Falling short that you're actually accomplishing.

[24:12] Matt: It's called deception.

[24:14] Michael: Accomplishing your goals.

[24:16] Matt: Yeah. I don't know if you sent it to me. I guess you have kind of been down the, like, Islam rabbit hole lately and sending me a bunch of content, but I don't know if you sent this one to me. Is this guy doing a YouTube conversation? I don't know if the guy was Christian or not. I assume he was talking to a Muslim and they were talking about Jesus and he says, well, did they crucify Jesus? And the Muslim says, allah made it appear that they did. And he's like, so he deceived everyone. Allah, God deceived everyone to make something that didn't actually happen appear to have happened.

[25:01] Michael: That's in the Quran.

[25:02] Matt: Yeah,

[25:03] Michael: yeah,

[25:03] Matt: that's in the Quran. And he makes a point. He's like, God doesn't deceive. You know, who does deceive? And I thought that was pretty powerful.

[25:14] Michael: Yeah.

[25:16] Matt: You know, we find that deception in our own hearts all the time. We want to deceive ourselves to say so that things don't look the way that we perceive them because we don't want them to look that way. We want them to look better. We want them to look like the boat and the cocktails and the, you know, relaxing afternoon. And you look around and it's like, you do get some of those. You know, I've had those. We. We want that because we know what it is.

[25:40] Michael: Yeah.

[25:40] Matt: But most of life isn't that. And most of the good things in your life, even the boat itself, it's like it came from some kind of sacrifice that you made to do something of value for other people.

[25:57] Michael: Yeah. I think it was like, two nights ago, I think. But I was talking to my. We were around the dinner table. We were talking, and I was just like. And I made this comment, maybe I'm jumping too far ahead, and this is not enough explanation. But I'd said, like, oh, that's because, like, depression is from, like, not adhering to reality. And I kind of caught myself. I've just been thinking about that ever since I made that comment because it's like, I. I do believe that there's a certain part of, like. Like, we're sort of, like, needing to. And we're drawn to conform to reality. Yeah. And the. The less that we conform to reality, the more troublesome we are in our spirit or soul or inside or whatever in our minds. And it's not that you ever reach that place, but it's sort of like as you go down that road, it's going to be revealed to you more and more how short you fall of that reality. And it's not that, like, it's like once you get to a place, you're never going to experience depression ever again. But, you know, there's something about that. Like, reality is going to reveal to you how far you are away from it. And I think that's something like. I think there's a humility that we have to sort of, like, approach. You know, a lot of these subjects that we're talking about is like, it's like, oh, I want to be a good father. It's like, okay, what does it mean to be a good father? And then you kind of, like, you see some success because you're moving towards that. But then as you start moving towards it, you're like, oh, whoa, I'm not a good father. And it's like the judge becomes more like. It almost starts to intensify at some point. Like, okay, well, I'm just going to basically say these things are going to make up being a good father, and I'm just going to do these things and not require anything outside of that. And so now I can say, like, I'm a good. I'm a good dad. Instead of, like, what it means to be actually a good dad or a good father is actually so much more than those, you know, principles or whatever you have. Like, I'm going to go to all my kids games. Like, that's what it means to be a good dad. It's like, okay, well, that's one thing, but that's not what it means to be a good dad.

[28:23] Matt: I'm seeing this kind of analogy in my mind's eye where it's like anytime you set up an idea of the way you want something to be or the kind of person you want to be, and as soon as you start describing it, it's like shining a light on yourself. You see what's really there. It's like you go down into the basement. I don't know why I use basement, because that's why I see it in my mind's eye.

[28:48] Michael: But

[28:49] Matt: we don't have basements in Texas.

[28:51] Michael: Amarillo. We do.

[28:53] Matt: Do you really? I guess because of tornadoes. Tornadoes, yeah. And you want something to be there, Right. You're going in there because you're trying to get something, and you turn the light on, and then you see what's in there. And, you know, maybe it's rats or like a pile of rubble or something. What's in a basement? Or another analogy comes to mind, like, you find you're shopping for a house, and you find this house that's just. You think it's your dream home, and you can imagine what it could be. And you picture the kids and the nursery and the. The dog and all of these things. It's wonderful. And before you buy it, what do you do? You hire an inspector.

[29:28] Michael: Totally.

[29:28] Matt: And what does the inspector tell you?

[29:30] Michael: All the things that are wrong with the house.

[29:33] Matt: He does not tell you anything that you want to hear. You know?

[29:36] Michael: Oh, you've got a great view here. You should buy this for sure.

[29:39] Matt: Yeah, but what about the foundation? Oh, do you really want to know? Yeah.

[29:44] Michael: Yeah. Or in about seven years, you have to replace your. Your roof, and three years, you're going to replace your AC and then mount it on and you're in a floodplain and it's like.

[29:56] Matt: Right.

[29:56] Michael: It's like all these things you have to contend with. You know, that's funny. I like that analogy. It's like you have this great idea, the building. The inspector comes. You're like, no, no, no, no, you don't have to come in here.

[30:09] Matt: Right, right.

[30:10] Michael: Let me just live with this idea that I have.

[30:15] Matt: How do you become anti. Fragile to

[30:18] Michael: that that's good.

[30:19] Matt: Or resilient to that? Because it seems like so much of being successful in life, whether it's becoming the kind of person you want to become or building the kind of business that you want to build or whatever it is, seems like you have to develop a resilience to that kind of bad news. It's like, because nothing is the way that you want it and you know, you are created in the image of God. And so you do have the ability to imagine great things and to want great things, but you're going to get a lot of bad news the more you hone your ability to imagine and want great things.

[31:02] Michael: Yeah. I mean, the first thing that came to my mind was just humility.

[31:05] Matt: Yeah.

[31:06] Michael: And I think that's one thing that. Especially what kids or being married or having a business is going to. You're going to have to submit to that. If not, that's a hard. It gets really hard because I even think about just, just ultimately even like, you know, the reason why Jesus came was like, to sort of to forgive us of our sins and like the humility to say like, yeah, God, I fall short. It's not that I fall short in the way. Not just in the way that I understand how I fall short. I actually fall short way more than I can even comprehend how.

[31:43] Matt: I don't understand.

[31:44] Michael: Don't understand. Yeah. You know, even David prayers I pray is like, he's like, you know, God, search me, you know, forgive me for the. My willful sins. And also the things that I don't even know that I do that. Sinful.

[31:55] Matt: Yeah.

[31:56] Michael: As a paraphrase of a psalm that I forget. But, but there's. There's that sort of like. I think there's a. There's a wisdom that comes to. To that prayer of like, you know, forgive me my willful sin and also forgive me for my. The sin. I know not. And, and it's like when you start a business or have a family or anything, it's like you go into it and you're going to See how far you fall short of being a good dad or being a good husband or being a good business owner. And then at some point you start to realize, like, oh, wow, there's some things that I don't even know how bad I'm doing these things.

[32:33] Matt: Right. I feel like David is a good. A good example of an answer to the question of how do you become resilient to those things? Because David did some pretty fucked up shit. And when I was reading through. What is the. What is the name of the book about David?

[32:58] Michael: Samuel.

[32:59] Matt: Samuel, that's right. Samuel

[33:00] Michael: First Kings,

[33:01] Matt: somewhat recently. And I always kind of knew the story of, you know, he saw her bathing on the roof. You know the story. David sees Bathsheba bathing on the roof and thinks he should be beautiful. And so she. He has her husband killed and takes her to be his wife. And you read the story and it's way worse than that.

[33:23] Michael: Yeah,

[33:24] Matt: it's way worse than that.

[33:25] Michael: The fact. It's like the amount of chapters that that takes, you're like, no, this should be like almost a whole book in and of itself.

[33:33] Matt: I mean, it's way worse than that in so many ways. Like, one is that it wasn't just he had her husband killed. Her husband was one of his closest, like,

[33:43] Michael: top generals kind of

[33:44] Matt: thing. Yeah. He was one of David's mighty men. David knew this dude well. And then he didn't just have him killed so he could have his wife. He took his wife, had sex with her, got her pregnant, and then to try to cover it up, he tried to get her husband to go home and sleep with her, but he wouldn't do it. Out of loyalty to the army and loyalty

[34:04] Michael: to Dave

[34:05] Matt: into loyalty to David. And so finally, in order to cover it up, finally, he has him sent to the front lines of battle so that he will die. It's terrible. But David's also generally considered sort of the apple of God's eye. And I think it's because, well. And David blinds himself to this whole thing, right? Like, Nathan has to come and tell him this story and get David all riled up about this fake story of a rich guy taking from a poor man in order to feed guests. And Nathan's like, no, that story is about you, what you did. He had to open David's eyes to this. But I think the thing that David does is he, once his eyes are open to it, he repents and cries out to God to save him. Save me from myself. And what kind of. What you're saying, it's like, save me from myself. And also to the parts of me that I'm blind to.

[35:00] Michael: Yeah.

[35:01] Matt: Because I can't do it.

[35:02] Michael: Because it's funny. Like, we. It's almost easy to say, like, oh, wow, that's a really shitty thing for you to do, David. God, David. Did

[35:10] Matt: you. Did you watch Shit screen? Okay,

[35:14] Michael: but it's like. But. But when you say when you really start. If. If you don't see yourself in David, then you don't see yourself. You know, Like, I can just like. Like the whole, like, you just. You can just willfully blind yourself to things. Yeah. And you don't know that you willfully blind yourself till afterwards. And you're like, oh, I saw that.

[35:35] Matt: Yeah,

[35:35] Michael: I knew that.

[35:36] Matt: I chose that.

[35:37] Michael: I chose that now. Yeah. It's like, dude, yeah. That kind of stuff just like. I don't know, just gets me. It's like. It's like, who is. Who is righteous? Who is good? You know? It's like,

[35:53] Matt: there are none.

[35:54] Michael: There is none. And it's like, if

[35:58] Matt: Paul says that, like. Exactly.

[36:00] Michael: Totally.

[36:00] Matt: He says, there are none who are righteous, there are none who are good. That's a hard pill to swallow.

[36:07] Michael: Yeah.

[36:08] Matt: Because I. I generally think of myself as a pretty good guy.

[36:11] Michael: Totally.

[36:11] Matt: I think most people generally think of

[36:13] Michael: themselves. You're a dickhead. But, you know, whatever. Thanks. Thanks.

[36:20] Matt: We have this idea that we're good.

[36:22] Michael: Yeah.

[36:24] Matt: And we're not.

[36:27] Michael: Isn't that hard? Because, like, again, even in you saying that, I kind of, like, squirm a little bit. Like, no, I'm a. I'm a fairly decent guy. It's like, are you Michael?

[36:37] Matt: Right?

[36:37] Michael: Like, no, I'm not. Yeah. It's like, I feel like I have to, like, almost like a Nathan, like, approaching you. Like, okay. No, man, I'm really not. And I think that's hard to. It's hard to accept that about yourself. I think that's what makes the cross so powerful is like, you accept that. And it's like Jesus says, like, I paid for that, you know where like in, like, I'm just studying Islam again for a second time, like, kind of depth. And it's like. It's like. Like, there is no forgiveness. It's like you have to, like, perform all these rituals and God might forgive you. And it's like. But you don't know if he is going to. How do you even know that you're righteous or how you know? It's like. And it's like, how do you know that your good deeds outweigh Your bad deeds. Like, what standard are you using? And if you are honest with yourself, it's like. It's like, man, there's no way that my good deeds could outweigh my bad deeds unless I make my world so small that I just only see myself as good, you know? So I think that's what makes it so powerful. It's like. Like, no, I. I forgave you because you're not good.

[37:57] Matt: Yeah.

[37:59] Michael: It's like, even you see that with, like. Like a friendship, you know, or it's like, I love you even despite your flawless, flawless, flawless your flaws, you know, it's like, you know. You know, you're not perfect. And it's like, you're my friend. It's like. It's not a matter of you being perfect. It's like, you're my friend, and I'm not as good as God is. But it's like, you know, it's like. Like, I need to be able to forgive you. I need to be able to forgive Alison and my kids, too. It's like our kids are just, you know, when they're little, it's like they don't even know that they're being shitheads, you know? And you have a sort of a benevolence towards them. It's like. It's like, I love you despite you telling me no.

[38:48] Matt: Yeah.

[38:48] Michael: And not going to bed.

[38:49] Matt: Right.

[38:50] Michael: And not wanting to eat and not wanting to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[38:55] Matt: Yeah. If you ever. It's funny because we generally think of children as innocent because, well, they are. But also raise one. And you'll realize why. It's true that we are all born into sin. You know, the toddler figures out how to pick up and use the fork. What's the first thing they do with it? Jam it into the table and probably poke you in the ribs, you know? It's like my toddler came up to me the other day and just hit me. Why? You know, it's like, is there. Is that a problem? It's like, not exactly. She can't hurt me, you know? But there is something in her that's just like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna hit you right now. Because that seems interesting to me.

[39:49] Michael: I just remember one morning, I heard this. Like, I was like, what is that noise? I go in there. I think it was Austin. He was just, like, taking a fork to the table.

[39:59] Matt: Oh, yeah.

[40:00] Michael: It's just like. I totally can understand like. Like him doing it. Like, it just made sense to me, too. I was like, what are you doing? It's like the first purchase Allison ever made together as a. As a couple.

[40:12] Matt: Just dest.

[40:13] Michael: Just destroying it. Just like, what are you doing?

[40:17] Matt: Yeah,

[40:18] Michael: but there is that. I mean, again, it's like. It's like a child. There's a sort of innocence that if it goes unchecked, it's sort of. It becomes more malevolent. You know, like, if. If my kids think that they can just ruin something that's not theirs, it's like. It's like, no, that's like you're disrespecting somebody else's, you know, property. Like, that's not. That's not okay. You know, I'm. I'm your dad, and it's like, I realized, like, okay, no, I need to teach you that. That's something that needs to come from me to, like, show you. Like. Like, when you go out into the world and you do that to somebody else's thing, it's. It's not. They're not gonna have the same, you know, forgiveness or benevolence towards you that I. I do, you know, And. And then also in that same way as I'm sort of like, I am God to my kids in that. In that sense, you know, it's like also seeing myself. It's like, I want to rip your arms off because you just destroyed my table. Yeah. And I fall short of, like, having a benevolence towards people I really do love.

[41:30] Matt: Yeah. You know, when we're, I think, the secular world, and for the most part, all of us, we want to imagine that sin is something like, well, obviously you shouldn't, like, take the Ten Commandments, for example. It's like, yeah, don't kill people. You know, rape's bad. I don't think that's on the Ten Commandments. I don't know. Sure. But, you know, we think that

[42:02] Michael: covet

[42:02] Matt: what's bad is kind of obvious. I think we only think that, though, because we. We live with the remnants of the Christian culture, but we tend to imagine, like, well, I'm not really a sinful person, because I don't. I've never raped anybody. I've never, you know, adulterated, never murdered. And then I think we're not quite in touch with the fact that Jesus came and just totally turned that on its head and said, no, you're all guilty of that. You're not guilty of it because you have. Act. Has acted it out. You're guilty of it because you acted out all the time inside you Desire it, and so you act it out inside. And it just occurred to me that I think maybe a good definition for sin that is counter to that, sort of. Well, on the one hand you have heaven, and on the other hand you have fire and brimstone. And it's like, well, I don't play with fire and brimstone very much, so I'm probably a pretty good person on the spectrum. But I think the definition of sin, of all sin, might be better served by saying it is anytime you want anything less than the best. Which is kind of awesome because when God says, don't sin, he's not saying, here's the list of things you shouldn't do. Here's the list of prohibitions, here's the list of freedoms which I'm taking away from you in order to deem you to be a good person. He's actually saying, no, I want you to want the best. You like sex good. Like the best sex. Here's how you get it, by the way.

[44:05] Michael: Yeah,

[44:06] Matt: you know,

[44:07] Michael: that's a good point.

[44:09] Matt: You want anything good for yourself, and we all want good for ourself, except in periods of insanity. And to reference back to Peter Kreeft, it's like, we know what's good and we don't want it so many times. But it's like, I think God is. Is trying to say, here's what you should want. You should want the best. I want the best for you. Here's the best. That makes me feel somehow differently about sin. It's not like, oh, damn it, I don't get to go do that. You know, it's more like, oh, that way is not the best.

[44:54] Michael: Yeah,

[44:55] Matt: this way's better. And it's objectively better. It's not about preferences or my own tastes and, you know, aesthetic preferences. It's like, no, this is objectively the best. Go this way.

[45:12] Michael: I think that's hard too, because sometimes you don't. You can't really. Even things that are good are not the best. And so sometimes when you. When you see something that's good and you pursue it and you in and you start to notice, you'll start to eventually notice that it's not the best because it's actually asking you to. To level up in a sense, you know?

[45:35] Matt: Yeah.

[45:35] Michael: And it's like, you follow that far enough and you're like, oh, wow. It's like,

[45:39] Matt: well, maybe it's like anything. You have to develop a taste for the best. You know,

[45:44] Michael: that's interesting.

[45:45] Matt: You have to develop a taste for good food and good drink. You know, what is, what do you think is the best when you're four? For me it was licking ketchup off a french fry and then discarding the french fry. That was the best, you know. But now that I've gotten older and realized that ketchup is actually absolutely disgusting,

[46:11] Michael: which we'll forgive you for that.

[46:12] Matt: Yeah. Well, I've ever told you my ketchup story.

[46:17] Michael: I think you have, because I always get ketchup and eat out.

[46:20] Matt: In short, I. When I was in my 20s, I was working at a restaurant and I had to change the ketchup dispenser in the back of house, which is just this massive, like, I don't know, 30 pound bag of ketchup. And it's a bag and you like hang it in this dispenser and then open up the nozzle and you can fill up the things and whatever. And I was doing this and I dropped it and ketchup went, exploded and went everywhere. And the smell,

[46:43] Michael: Totally.

[46:44] Matt: Oh my God, the smell. And I was like, I'm. I've never wanted to eat ketchup since then. No. But anyway, you know, when you're young, that seems like the best to you, but then you get older and, you know, you start developing a taste for good wine and you start developing it. Developing a taste for good foods that take a lot of effort and time and skill to make, but once you make them, it's one of the best experiences. I think you and I talk every time we go out for a really good meal. I think you and I always agree. It's like there's one thing we never regret spending money on. It's a good meal.

[47:24] Michael: Totally.

[47:24] Matt: Which is so interesting because it seems like that would be sort of a. A fleeting, temporary experience. It's like, wouldn't you want to spend money on something that's longer lasting? But there is something about a good meal that does seem to like. It's almost like it's eternal. You know, a good meal is so satisfying, so satiating and generally is accompanied by such good company. You generally, you know, partake with good friends and have good conversations and, you know, some of my best memories are meals. And you start developing a taste for that. And I think we need to kind of develop a taste for God because. God, that's

[48:10] Michael: interesting.

[48:10] Matt: I mean, we were just talking about this recently. I mean, Jesus says, I am the real bread. You've had bread, I'm the real bread. You've had wine, I'm the Real wine. I mean, he describes himself in these terms. It's like, yeah, you've grown up, you've figured out how to eat. You know, what is good, you know, what it is to be satisfied. I'm what's real. I am the best of that.

[48:38] Michael: Which makes sense because like I remember like when I'd go home like to my, to my, my parents house and my dad, man, he cooks so such great meals for us and we drink such great wine.

[48:53] Matt: Yeah.

[48:53] Michael: And we have great conversation and it's sit on the table and it's just fantastic. And by about the third or fourth day of that it's sort of normal now, you know. And then I come home and I have my boda box and my. What is

[49:11] Matt: this shit? Where do we live?

[49:13] Michael: But it's funny because then I, I, I, I, I kind of forgot like what I had too. And, and there's something about that too is like, it's like, yes, these things symbolize something and that as you move into like what is the best wine, you move into that and pursue that. It's like that's a lifelong journey, like coffee. It's like it's not that you arrive there, you know, but at the same time it's like it's not about the coffee or it's not about the wine. It's like, it's, it's something about more of like the pursuit of that.

[49:47] Matt: It's an interesting point. Like you get used to the best wine and the best meals and then you come home and you've got your bota box and you're like this bullshit, you know, but before long you renormalize. So maybe one of the things that we're, we should be a skill we should be honing is like once you've tasted the best, don't forget it. Don't re. Normalize something that isn't the best. Because I think we do that all the time. We say, well, my dad is in this different stage of his life and career and he has the money and I don't, I don't have the money and so I'll just be okay with my builder box. Maybe that's fine, but maybe we shouldn't forget that the best exists, you know, and say, well, I'm going to, I'm going to eat what I need to eat, what's available, drink what I, what's available to drink. But remember that I've tasted the best and, and I want to get back to that. And it's not just about not talking about food and wine here. Exactly.

[50:55] Michael: Well, I think

[50:56] Matt: it might be. Yeah, go ahead.

[50:57] Michael: I think that's the part is like. Is like. Because I think that's something that we experience as humans. It's like you go and you help out at, like, a food bank or. Or something like that, or you. You pull over, like, even tonight, like, you know, like, I was in the middle of the road, and I was just like, michael, just stop your car and help push this car away. You know?

[51:18] Matt: Oh. Like,

[51:19] Michael: that went through my head, and I was just like. And I didn't do it.

[51:21] Matt: Yeah.

[51:22] Michael: But I know that every time I've done it, it's like. It's like, I feel like I tasted like. Oh, you know. Oh, okay. There's a higher purpose here, and there's a higher purpose in helping other people, but it's not just in help helping the. It's not an end and of itself, but it's actually. It's like a. A mode that's calling you to something greater.

[51:44] Matt: Yeah.

[51:44] Michael: And

[51:45] Matt: can we talk about that for a second? Because I had the same thought.

[51:47] Michael: Okay.

[51:48] Matt: Yeah. So just for the listeners, we were driving down the road. Traffic was really bad.

[51:53] Michael: Yeah.

[51:54] Matt: We were trying to go get dinner before the podcast tonight. And we pull up in this. In the right lane. We're getting up close to the turn lane, and we realized one of the reasons traffic is bad is because there's a car stopped in the turn lane with their hood. Nobody's standing around anywhere, and nobody can turn right. So everybody's trying to merge left back into the straight lane and go around this car to get into the right hand turn lane. And everybody's annoyed. Right. We were annoyed. We

[52:25] Michael: were annoyed. Yeah.

[52:26] Matt: And as you just said, you and I had the same thought, like, should we get out and help this guy or whoever's in this car. I don't know who it was. Push their car out of the way. And instead, I think we probably both were silently like, let's just get out of here.

[52:44] Michael: Totally.

[52:44] Matt: And that's what everybody did. And it's. I think I told myself in my head, like, there's something about our. Our modern culture where it actually isn't desirable for somebody to get out of the car and go, say, do you need help? We assume, well, they've got a cell phone.

[53:09] Michael: There's a tow truck on the way.

[53:10] Matt: Something's happening. Yeah. It's not. It's none of my business. Right. But I honestly, I really regret that.

[53:20] Michael: I, too. Yeah.

[53:21] Matt: Because. Generally, what we think is going to Be an inc or is an inconvenience to us. You made a comment earlier tonight about opportun. In times in my life where I have been in need of help on the road or I have in other times in my life, helped some. Some stranger on the road. That has always turned out to be surprisingly positive.

[53:52] Michael: Totally. Yeah.

[53:57] Matt: So why do we. It's like, we know that. I think most of us do. Knowing that, why don't we choose it? Maybe that's kind of one of the themes of this whole conversation. It's like, we know it, we see it, we go, I'd rather just get my burger.

[54:13] Michael: Yeah,

[54:15] Matt: because we suck. We're insane.

[54:20] Michael: Well, it's also. That comes back to the

[54:21] Matt: light has shown in the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it.

[54:24] Michael: Well, it comes back to. The whole thing is like, you know, I'm so concerned about Gaza, but I can't

[54:29] Matt: stop to help.

[54:30] Michael: Stop to help this dude pull his. Push his car to, like, a. A parking lot. You know, it's a. I think it's just a good metaphor for so much of, like, what we're talking about that you and I are guilty of right now. It's like. It's like, why did you stop and help your neighbor?

[54:46] Matt: Yeah,

[54:46] Michael: well, he's not my neighbor. It's like, well, if he's not your

[54:50] Matt: neighbor, who is?

[54:51] Michael: Yeah, exactly.

[54:52] Matt: He's like, right there next to you.

[54:56] Michael: Yeah.

[55:00] Matt: Whoever it was is probably sitting in his car waiting on AAA or whatever and tweeting about Gaza. Maybe that's. Maybe that's. That's the thing. It's like, we see what is good and we turn away from it. We taste the good wine and we go back to the bota box and we blame our circumstances. It's like, no, remember. Remember that when you help your neighbor, when your neighbor helps you, something unexpectedly good comes out of that. And I say unexpectedly because it's not just like, oh, I feel good that I helped somebody. I'm altruistic. It's like opportunities come out of that, stories come out of that, Connections come out of that. Life comes out of that.

[56:01] Michael: Yeah. And you change too, because it's like there's something about, like, I can just look back on. I've come almost 49, which is crazy.

[56:10] Matt: That is crazy.

[56:11] Michael: Isn't that crazy? And I just look at different parts of my life and I can see whenever I am open to again, we'll just use the car metaphor right now. Or not. Metaphor. It actually happened when I'm open to that and I Respond to it. It actually, like. It's sort of like, propels you into more of those things, you know? And when I ignore it, it's even. Another example is like, it's like, ah, it's the weekend. I just want to chill. I don't want to do anything.

[56:46] Matt: Yeah.

[56:47] Michael: And I'll be like, do nothing. And then another weekend, I'll just be like, oh, I got to take out the trash. All right, Take out the trash. And I was like, oh, well, that looks kind of dirty over there. Okay, I'm gonna go clean that thing. Oh, oh, I also need to kind of do that thing over there. You know, Then I'll start just kind of getting on a roll of, like, taking care of things around the house. And afterwards, I'm like, oh, that was really cool. That feels really good. Like, you know, I'm taking care of the house, and I'm doing these things not only for me, but for my wife or my kids. And they. They won't see it, but it's like there's a certain pride and sort of like. Like the beauty that you see around you, and you're, like, impacting it. And so it sort of, like, propels you into that. But the more you ignore things, which I'm ignoring a lot right now, go into that right now. It's like it just sort of like, it just sort of. It's like you start to get buried underneath that mountain of things that you're not responding to.

[57:41] Matt: Well, not only that, by ignoring them, your life becomes that very hollow, repetitious thing that you were talking about earlier. Like, I get up, I go to work, I come home and go to bed, get up and do it again. You know, it's like, maybe it's that your life is only that way because you're ignoring the opportunities in front of you, that there's something calling to you and you're not picking up the phone. And

[58:06] Michael: this is so convicting.

[58:07] Matt: Life is becoming stale. I mean, it is for me, too.

[58:13] Michael: Like, damn it, we gotta stop the podcast. I got shit I gotta do. But the funny thing is, it's not about. It's not the doing. It's not like in Islam. It's like, because you did these things and you did them repetitively and faithfully, that you go to heaven,

[58:32] Matt: Right?

[58:33] Michael: It's like. It's like, no, there's actually something that's life giving in these things. And it's like, you know, it's not a requirement. You said this. I think earlier I forgot how you said that. But there's something about, like when you respond to God is sort of like. It's like. Like he. Like, sort of like it says yes and sort of like almost empowers you and kind of like comes into you and it activates something that is divine almost. And I don't know how you said it. You said something better,

[59:09] Matt: I don't remember, but the light went on in my head when you said, it's life giving. It's not that you do these things and you get into heaven. Most religions imagine

[59:27] Michael: a ledger

[59:28] Matt: that if I do X, Y and Z correctly, then at some point I will get admittance into.

[59:36] Michael: I deserve it. A

[59:37] Matt: new place. I don't think that's what Christianity says.

[59:41] Michael: No.

[59:41] Matt: Lewis in the Great Divorce says. I think in the Great Divorce might be mere Christianity or the way to glory. I don't know. He says, to those who end up in heaven, it will seem to them that they have always been in heaven. To those who end up in hell, it will seem to them that they have always been in hell. It isn't that doing these things gets you into heaven. It's that doing these things is life giving. And the more you do them, the more alive you become. Until you become fully alive, which is heaven. It is not a place that you get admittance to. It's that when you become fully alive, you are there. And you will not become fully alive until you taste of life. Like, are you. Am I describing the distinction? The distinction between XYZ gets you a ticket into a place and no XYZ brings that place here in town.

[60:45] Michael: That's interesting. Okay,

[60:46] Matt: it is. It is as if the manna from heaven shows up. The life is there. It's like. I don't know how to give reference to this scripturally, but I think it bears out scripturally and I do believe this, that the kingdom of heaven is here and now. It is not a place for later. It begins here. And maybe begins is the right word.

[61:16] Michael: Yeah, the picture paint really makes a lot of sense to me because I think the difficulty is. And this is something that, like I say in my own life too, is like, once I've tasted that sort of like heavenly ness, it's like somehow I replaced that with the thing itself. Like. Like the law, like, you know, like God through the prophets always told the Jews is sort of like, hey, no. It's like, I don't care about your sacrifices. I want your heart. And I think that's the part too where, like, when we taste that sort of heavenly gift. Like in. Jesus talks about praying, like on earth as it is in heaven. It's like, yeah, we get to participate in heaven here and now.

[62:01] Matt: Yes.

[62:02] Michael: But then we can substitute quickly for an earthly sort of like deeds oriented thing. It's like, no, it's not about the deeds. It's about participating in heaven.

[62:11] Matt: Right.

[62:12] Michael: And

[62:12] Matt: it's. Yeah, it's not, It's not, it's not getting a ticket to enter a place. It's accepting an invitation to, To be in the place.

[62:34] Michael: Yeah, to be at the wedding banquet. It's like, here's an invitation. Like, now, be here, be here,

[62:40] Matt: come.

[62:40] Michael: Yeah. What does it mean to be somewhere? It's like, well, when you're, when you are somewhere, it's like you're participating in that activity or in that, you know, environment. It's like there's a lot of people that can be a part of a club, but you can be a part of a club, but not a part of a club. Like someone who's like, actually a part of a club is like you're in there participating, you know, maybe like helping design the flyers or whatever. You know, it's like, it's like you're active in the thing itself. What's up?

[63:18] Matt: So a couple years ago, I've always been super into aviation. When I was a kid, I used to build balsa wood remote control gliders. And I'd never been in a real glider. And I found that there's this place here, near like an hour from here. My house in Austin, they have a glider club and it is free to go out. And they have instructors who will teach you how to fly glider, get your license, and they'll teach you for free. And all they ask in return is that you participate in the club, which means come out. On Saturdays. We take off on a grass strip. If it needs mowing, mowing mow it. If the bathrooms need cleaning, clean them. This guy's building a deck right now so we have a place to sit around and chat. You know, at the end of our glider days, I'll teach you how to fly for free. All you have to do is come and be a part of this community.

[64:18] Michael: God, that's cool.

[64:20] Matt: So cool. And there was a part of me that was like, I don't know if I want to commit to that. I want to, I want to, I want to be on my own terms. I don't want to have some obligation. And I felt that and I just hated myself for it. It's like I'm Going to turn away from an invitation to do something I've always wanted to do since I'm a kid because I. What? Because I feel like I don't want the obligation. I'm insane, right?

[64:59] Michael: Yeah.

[65:00] Matt: And I share that example. Not to necessarily confess it so much as to say, like, that's in us. We do that all the time.

[65:08] Michael: Well, you also just see the person that, you know, different clubs or whatever you're a part of. Like, the person that's sort of like. Because there's also things like, well, you know What? I gave 30% of my time and everybody else is giving 5% of time. It's like, I'm doing way more than everybody else. But then you see this. These people that just, like, they're just giving themselves to the thing, and they're not looking for, like, how much they're doing more than other people.

[65:35] Matt: Right?

[65:36] Michael: And there's so much more. You can see those people having so much more joy because they're not trying to keep a tally of, like, I've done five things and everybody else has only done two things. So that makes me better. It's like, you know, those people, like, those stand out, but the people are just sort of like, no, you know, this is about. What this is about is like, it's a community and we're giving ourselves to it. And here's what I can give. It's like, I'm giving out of what I can give, and it's not to be measured against other people.

[66:08] Matt: And honestly. So I went and did a introductory, like, ride in the glider and spent the whole Saturday out there. And that's exactly what I found. So they had a malfunction of a tow line, and this glider had to land back on the Runway short. And where it landed was muddy and it got stuck. And so a guy was like, hey, you want to come help me? It was basically the version of, we saw the guy in the road and we went by him. But it was like, no, we all went and helped this guy. And we had. It's a glider. It doesn't have an engine. We had to push this thing back up the Runway through the mud. And we all got filthy dirty with mud. But during that period, it's like, I met an EX F15 fighter pilot. I met an ex or maybe current commercial pilot. We were all telling stories. We got back, everybody was happy about what we had done. And the people who didn't help us were celebrating. So we weren't mad at them for not helping. It was like they Joined in the celebration. And then they told this story about how this guy, this other guy who had taken off earlier in the day, he was. Some story about him getting stuck in the mud. And they were like, have you met that guy John? Let's just say somebody turned to me, have you met John? I said, no, I don't think I met him. It's my first time here. And they were like, oh, well, he took off earlier. He won't be back for, like, eight hours. And I was like, what do you mean, eight hours? He goes. When he takes off to go gliding, he just doesn't come back for the rest of the day. And I learned something interesting, which is, well, how does he not come back for the rest of the day if he's gliding? He doesn't have an engine on his airplane. And that's what these guys do. They know how to work the thermal so well that they'll go out, apparently, with, like, a bottle to piss in and fly for eight hours with no engine.

[68:00] Michael: Wow.

[68:01] Matt: And nobody was mad at him. They all respected him, you know, so it's like that kind of community. You're right. It's like love keeps no record of wrongs.

[68:10] Michael: Yeah.

[68:11] Matt: And a good community knows that.

[68:16] Michael: Yeah, that's. That's.

[68:17] Matt: It was a beautiful experience.

[68:19] Michael: Yeah. Parents do, too. It's like, you don't keep a tally of wrong that your kids do to you. If you do, you become very. That's a very embittered parent.

[68:28] Matt: Well, good advice for all of us because we do tend to do that.

[68:31] Michael: Yes.

[68:32] Matt: With our romantic partners.

[68:35] Michael: Totally.

[68:36] Matt: We engrave that record right on our hearts.

[68:38] Michael: It's the truth. I mean. Yeah. Golly. I really like the picture that we're painting because it's like. It's like you do get this sense of what it means to be. To live in sort of like what it means heaven on earth, you know, it's like we get glimpses of it. And I think the hardest part is, like, whenever, like, in that environment is, like, when people fall short, you know, it's like. It can be sort of, like, condemning, too. It's like, hey, you know, you've come out here for, like, 10 times and you've done, like, what is that? And we can come up with all these excuses or whatever, and it's just sort of like, at some point, you know, it's like, do you really want to be a part of this? Like, and I think that's like. That's a question that we had that that's asked of us Is like, do you want to be a part of this? Yeah. Like this is available to you.

[69:38] Matt: It's like, I see you here, but it doesn't seem to me like you want to be here.

[69:42] Michael: Yeah. Because if you want to be somewhere, it's like you participate.

[69:46] Matt: Yeah,

[69:47] Michael: I understand, too. Anytime there's like a party or something like that. Gosh. Okay. And then when I get there and I participate, I'm like, oh, this is cool. You know, it's like you. Yeah, there's something about that. Yeah, I like that. Just like, you know,

[70:12] Matt: it's kind of puzzling through or wondering why. The apostle Paul from a jail cell writes, basically, I consider all a loss when compared to the surpassing joy of Christ. And I thought, well, I'm not in a jail cell. But I don't feel surpassing joy. I feel frustrated and discouraged and fucking tired. And I live in a house with a tempur Pedic mattress and air conditioning and electricity. I was just thinking. I started thinking, like, oh, my God, how good do I have it? I started looking it up. People didn't have electricity until like a hundred years ago.

[71:08] Michael: Yeah.

[71:11] Matt: For almost all of humanity, they didn't have electricity. People didn't even have showers until like 100 years ago, like the early 1900s. It's crazy. People didn't have refrigeration until the turn of the 19th or 20th century. I've got it pretty good. And I'm frustrated and I'm angry and I'm disappointed. And Paul is sitting in the first century in a cell. And can you imagine what a cell would be like in the first century?

[71:47] Michael: Totally. It's, like, tiled and nice. It's not like

[71:51] Matt: you go to prison here and you've got a running water toilet to use. That sounds terrible to us. Your

[71:56] Michael: own personal one at that.

[71:57] Matt: Yeah. Right. And they bring you meals and you're sleeping on a mattress, however uncomfortable it might be. I don't know what his conditions were like in there, but they must have been awful. And the only light would have been from a fire. And the cell was probably more of a cave, so it's probably filled with smoke. And he's saying, I consider it all a loss for the surpassing joy of Christ. And I think that the answer has. Like, how did he. How did he come to that perspective, to where he could say something like that from a situation like that, from a circumstance like that? And I think it's what we've been talking about. But he saw the glimpse. He saw the glimpse of the best of what was Good. And he didn't take his eyes off of it. He said, I'm never looking away from that. Nothing else matters except for the best. I've tasted it.

[72:56] Michael: And it's also. You start to look for it too, because, I mean, even kind of going back to our wine example is like, man, I've tasted some of the best wine. It's like, it's like whenever you come across it and you're like, oh, hey, this is a good wine. You know, like, you kind of surprised you. It's like, you know, even like a 30 bottle bottle of wine, like, this is a good wine. It's like, once you've tasted that, it's like you kind of. You kind of. You're able to recognize it a little bit more better. Well, it's kind of interesting because we kind of started the podcast off with, like, kind of like kind of the craziness that's happening around us. And it's like, it's interesting how sometimes that can be distracting in a sense, and not, like, away from, like, what is good and, like, moving towards that. And. And sometimes what. What is not good can actually get in the way. And. And we're so intently focused on it that we miss the what is good part. It's not to say that the other things are not good, like, but it's just sort of like you can just get almost imprisoned by how things are not good.

[74:18] Matt: Yeah, Well, I think Uncle Screwtape would be very pleased with the distraction that we all. It's like, almost. No better way to say it. Dive into every day when we open our phones and go on to go into these lakes of distraction.

[74:44] Michael: Well, I definitely feel like we've got enough. Got it. I've got enough to go work on.

[74:48] Matt: Okay. Got your homework?

[74:51] Michael: I do. And I'm like, you know, I love that you and I both had the same feeling. It's like, even after we drove past the guy, I was just like,

[75:02] Matt: did the wrong thing.

[75:03] Michael: Did the wrong thing. You know, it's like I forsook or an opportunity to participate in something in that.

[75:15] Matt: Yeah.

[75:17] Michael: I don't know. That's interesting.

[75:21] Matt: Well, I'm glad our eyes have been opened. Yeah. Cheers to that.

[75:26] Michael: Cheers. Love you guys. Thanks for listening.

[75:27] Matt: Love you out there. Thanks for being with us,